The HIDDEN Ships of Hearts of Iron 4

The HIDDEN Ships of Hearts of Iron 4
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FeedbackIRL is where feedback procrastinates with his hobbies and other interests. Warning REALLY BORING or REALLY INTERESTING
#hoi4 #hoi4navy #hoi4meta

[@anthonysantilo928]

I always liked the idea of the coastal defense shop, but the cost makes it so that it's about the same price to just make a early battleship with the same load out for better stats.

[@dmitristrelnikov9746]

fact: a battlegroup of coastal defence shops is called a coastal defence market

[@mglsj]

@@dmitristrelnikov9746 XD

[@Arthion]

Unfortunately they cannot reach their full potential as they cannot equip as much armor as some of them had historically. the Sverige-class had comparable protection to a battlecruiser, also decently fast for the type.

[@mobiiuz129]

@@dmitristrelnikov9746 And the armadas? Are they called coastal defense supermarkets?

[@MrBulldog855]

If you utilize the Coastal defense designer to design a ship you want to produce for cheap. You can create a new variation with a diffrent designer and can refit for very cheap.

[@BastieDerSpasti]

Fun fact, fleet range for a fleet gets an average instead of counting the lowest value as max range. Combine your costal defense ships with cheap longrange cruisers and the can reach areas usually out of their own operation range.

[@marktheprussian]

i guess the cheap cruisers would give their fuel to the coastal defence ships? that would make sense

[@12gark]

Well, usually this is because large ship can usually refuel their escorts. Would be VERY weird to see a submarine refueling a ship, but why not 😂

[@Anne-py1lt]

Time to combine coastals with cheap crusier subs

[@rps215]

The submarine one makes sense. While Japan's I-13 and I-400 class subs are meant to carry planes, I think German ones are meant to represent "milk cow" U boats. Basically a modified common U boat but with weapons replaced with more fuel tanks instead just to give wolfpacks extended range and longer operational time.

[@xXMaxnimeXx]

@@Anne-py1lt OH no, New Submarine-Costals Ships Meta.

[@alicebrown6215]

For anyone who wants to know the quick reason Dreadnought was so revolutionary: Pre-Dreadnought Battleships had a large gun battery, but would also be expected to have numerous smaller guns to deal with other threats on their own, they were basically big jack of all trades. Dreadnought dropped that in favor of focusing on getting as many big guns as possible, and so was effectively an anti-battleship battleship. The royal navy saw this as the solution to a sizable buildup of battleships by other nations, believing rather naively that them having this would make other nations trying to build up their navies abandon mass battleship building, however it instead made countries build their battleships bigger and build more in an attempt to ohtmatch the royal navy in terms of designs and strength.

[@loganvanderwier8866]

The other significant change was speed. Turbine engines (a new invention at the time) were extremly horse-power dense, allowing both much smaller engine rooms AND better speed. This made it so that a battleship could have a decent change of out-running a smaller ship, espessally if it can threaten it with it's main guns. The time it takes to close in is now a lot longer, so having short range weapons makes little sense. Using less engine room even allowed the American "All or Nothing" armour scheme. It's almost an extension of Dreadnought thought. The only things you are going to face is other battleships. So ONLY have armour on the essential spaces, and have NO armour anywhere else.

[@XMysticHerox]

It had a number of big guns of the same caliber combined with great speed. This allowed it to engage at extreme ranges with a lot of firepower, choose the engagement range and then just sit there and snipe away. Pre dreadnoughts stood no chance because they could not close in so were at best at a severe disadvantage and at worst couldn't even fire back at all. Having only one type of main gun also made command much easier and allowed them to rangefind much faster usually as opposed to fire control having to figure out the ranging for every caliber seperately. Finally many pre dreadnoughts still had many sponson style turrets that could only fire in one direction. A dreadnought or post dreadnought BB could either fire at the enemy with most of It's guns or all of them which is an obvious advantage.

[@Tdelliex]

pre-dreadnaughts could fire back they had similar guns to early dreadnaughts just much more inaccurately and in much smaller volume, because they had older fire control systems and less guns.

[@Karagianis]

HMS Dreadnought was mostly a reaction to the battle of Tsushima, when it was observed that the vast majority of the damage done was by the big guns, and all the smaller guns had really done was complicate the job of fire control for the gunners. As effective range of the main armament improved no one wanted to get in close enough to fire the smaller guns as well So the logical conclusion was to scale back the secondary guns to an anti torpedo boat defense role and put the rest of the available tonnage into a massed battery of the largest guns available.

[@magni5648]

Pre-dreadnoughts having a mixed battery was because very large guns had a very slow rate of fire and limited accuracy, so mixing in medium-calibre weapons was needed for fighting at medium-long distances. Then rate of fire and fire control improved, and a unitary main battery (plus secondaries to defend against torpedo boats and similar small threats) became the more efficient layout.

[@atomicLord97]

The Torpedo Cruiser matches my naval style perfectly, my navy exists entirely to carry as many torpedo's as possible into battle. My thought process being "It's hard for even the royal navy to be a threat when the ocean they attempt to engage me on is more Torpedo than sea"

[@shellshockedgerman3947]

Irl, torpedo cruisers were crap because hitting torpedoes was incredibly difficult unless in suicidal ranges and they were incredibly useless in most times.

[@atomicLord97]

That explains why submarines were not all that effective as a whole during the war. unless it was a merchant ship that couldn't fight back.

[@shellshockedgerman3947]

@@atomicLord97 No, subs were effective because they can sneak up on an enemy and fire torpedo salvoes at close ranges that it would be impossible to dodge them. Torpedo cruisers are big so people know they're coming and they can easily dodge by shifting bearing. Its the reason why no one else apart from Japan actually had torpedo cruisers.

[@atomicLord97]

@@shellshockedgerman3947 Didn't the British near the end of the war develop tactics and technologies that when employed basically made German subs a non-threat? I might be thinking about something else, sir, cause I can't quite remember clearly.

[@furens-aru]

Isnt torps useless tho if the enemy screening is still at 100%?

[@northerncricket5199]

The only problem with spamming lots of cheap ships is it eats up your manpower fast. If you make one sub 3 vs three sub 1s you may have more submarines but you also have to crew more less effective submarines, which isn't a problem for some nations, but may be for others that lack manpower

[@30cal23]

really only viable as a strat for japan or china can you imagine the french trying this shit?

[@Tdelliex]

@@30cal23 i can imagine the brits, americans, germans or italians doing it even the soviets if they bothered.

[@user-cd4bx6uq1y]

- Lazerpig about the T-34 tank

[@Horizontalvertigo]

For me the thing with spamming out cheap ships is that you end up hitting a point where you've basically won the war on economic terms and you end up with massive death stacks of hundreds of torpedo destroyers, light cruisers and subs, and sure you sweep the oceans clean but it's not really that fun? If you want to set and forget your navy, great, but honestly, I kinda dig the naval game, so in the future I'm probably going to aim to build high with my navy and enjoy stuff like Panzerschiff raiding with cruiser subs, or going early torp-cruiser/cruiser sub with a Yamato just for the fun of it.

[@keuwlcat1319]

too bad nigga yo land just got coastal raided and now the orc horde marches to the port

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

Probably the biggest problem with Yamato is getting it means you're permanently locked with a malus to Fighter research speed.

[@Horizontalvertigo]

@@RedShocktrooperRST just focus rush to the Zero I guess /shrug

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

@@Horizontalvertigo The Zero is on the Carrier line IIRC.

[@Horizontalvertigo]

@@RedShocktrooperRST oh, yeah, you are correct. Thanks for the sensible design PDX :')

[@Arthion]

The reason the Deutschland-class panzerschiff had such a beastly range was the fact that ran on diesel engines rather than conventional steam turbines which are more fuel efficient, downside is that they're rather large and heavy so marine diesels were pretty rare around the time period although the Germans experimented a lot with them. The historical context behind the torpedo cruiser was that by the time of the war Japan had a lot of old obsolete light cruisers nearing 20 years old, of which they converted some of them by removing a bunch of guns covering their entire deck in torpedo launchers. Unfortunately you cannot refit a regular cruiser into one though.. I think Brittain did something slightly similar to Japan since they had a lot of leftover WW I cruisers and replaced a bunch of their guns with dual-purpose AA guns instead, effectively making them an AA-cruiser.

[@shellshockedgerman3947]

They only converted two, the Kuma-class Kitakami and Oi (Kiso was supposed to also be modified but shortages prevented them from doing it). They were pretty useless compared to the older unconverted light cruisers and both the torpedo cruisers were converted into fast transports by 1942, though they still retained most of their tubes. They did not fight any surface vessels while others of their class and similar classes did. What essentially happened is that now they were too risky to risk for the battles that happened in the Pacific naval war.

[@Zorro9129]

Don't a lot of modern ships use huge marine diesel engines?

[@sfjuhispst8144]

I believe the british AA-cruisers are present in the game as a selectable list of ship names.

[@jjquinn295]

​@SFjuhis PST The US has AA cruiser names as well

[@PikaPilot]

keep in mind PDX is rebalancing naval combat next patch. They're pushing for building Quality ships to be better than Spamming ships.

[@christianmoore7932]

Lol it's been a year

[@PikaPilot]

@@christianmoore7932 and navies got rebalanced. naval hit chance changed a ton and now heavy attack actually hits screens

[@Lazarus98849]

Panzerschiffs IRL were built as a surface raider. Admiral Graf Spee and it’s voyage is a good example and read

[@jaxkommish]

I love the Panzerschiff. Its great for surface convoy raiding and long range support for naval invasions Cruiser subs are open to France, Japan, Germany, and the US. They're the best sub if you can't open them up, because of the insane range

[@Xeemix]

And the Greeks too!

[@archer8849]

France even starts with one. Surcouf

[@TheTripleAce3]

Soviets can also get cruiser subs.

[@Tdelliex]

@@archer8849 i believe they have multiple that's just the most famous.

[@boi5419]

0:29 Dave: when the war is over The IRL Vanguard: *Sweats nervously*

[@strikestehl]

I've done the naval path for France but ONLY for Road to 56. Jean Bart's seventy day focus not only gives you a mostly completed Jean Bart but it also gives you a research slot. And it's the SECOND FOCUS. Honestly things like that ought to be more the norm the baseline because there's basically no reason to go into any of those parts of the focus tree. Cruiser Submarines are super versatile and for me has helped smaller navies or larger ones that start with bad detection be able to dominate the seas for a very small investment. A trio of cruiser subs with seaplane catapults turn the Mediterranean into a joke, since the research for that setup is so minimal if you have access to it.

[@XMysticHerox]

The issue with ship spam is manpower. It may not seem like much compared to your army but if you spam out hundreds and hundreds of destroyers it adds up quickly. Say you go max spam and pump out cheap torpedo destroyers all the way to the start of the war while building a few dockyards. The typical major nation will have made about 300 destroyers then. Thats about 100k manpower. For the same stats as if you used a fraction of that manpower. But it gets worse. Better ships are far less likely to sink. So you will loose a lot of that manpower and have to replace those ships. Unless you stomp completely such a navy will be a huge drain on manpower which could loose you the game.

[@Zorro9129]

Don't they also use a lot more fuel?

[@Dradolan]

I love the crusier submarines, that spotting is amazing in a pack and it's still bloody cheap comparatively to captital ships and such. I will have to give the torpedo cruiser a go to see how effective they are.

[@danielgloyd4529]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJyXameMhLWNpcU Feedback did a meme playthrough with torpedo cruisers a few years ago. Torpedoes have been nerf'd since then, so if you try to replicate it your mileage will vary. They are still very good though for a singleplayer game. If you combine it with light attack you can wipe any fleet in the game.

[@sofartsogood3932]

I never built them until now. Will try them against expert AI.

[@user-ed6yi3jj9m]

I use destroyers for massive torpedo attack

[@TheArklyte]

10:14 Sadly it is true, but should be considered a bug. You CAN build 5 destroyers for price of that light cruiser and have even more torpedo attack with more ships to tank the damage, more detection and so on. IRL you'll be paying back for it with fuel efficiency(and production cost. PDX apparently decided that ship cost comes from weight of steel and not from components heavy on qualified workforce). But in the game those 5 ships somehow consume LESS fuel then one. So for nations low on fuel like Japan or Germany it would have made sense. It's the same story as to how Panther weighted twice as much as Pz.IV in steel, but only was 20% more expensive in production and was consuming less fuel then two of those. A weird case of economy of scale. Sadly naval module of HoI4 has neither this logic working, nor an "overstacking" penalty to counter death stacks(because while it may counter fleets, air force calls such concentration of ships a target rich environment;))

[@Zeolot22]

The other issue is that paradox doen't address the benefits of torpedos on larger ships/cruisers. A bigger ship can carry so many more torpoedoes, because your average destroyer rarely carried more than a few since they were just so insanely massive relative to the ship. Destroyers had to carry depth charges, ammunition for their main guns, anti-air munitions, and torpedoes. Being able to specialize a cruiser (which would have more storage space by default) and giving bigger ships the ability to mount larger torpedo launchers than a destroyer would retain the torpedeos "everyone can use one" function, but give an actual reason to add torpedos to cruisers. Right now there is literally no reason, cruisers should spam light attack.

[@azh698]

Surface raiders isn't just for the Germans, any country can have it, as long as they follow the convoy raiding naval doctrine.

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

The Cruiser Submarine can be used by Germany, the USA, Russia, and is available by default to France and maybe Japan IIRC? It can also be fitted with a scout plane. The Soviets can also get In-Production aircraft carriers and battleships. Hypothetically the Red Navy could become quite a powerhouse, but why would you go so heavy into boats as the Soviets???

[@florianjongejeugd3902]

to spread the revolution to the entire world

[@happycrusher1282]

the panzerschiff you showed actually was destroyed by the crew on the coast fo uruguay , just to show the massive range of these ships

[@FeedbackIRL]

Thanks for sharing!

[@Joe2033]

I once did a Yugoslavia game while my friend was Turkey, and my navy was entirely bathtubs and licensed pre-dreadnoughts. It did not last long once the war started.

[@lacelessshoes2413]

I actually really like the French navy in ww2 considering how modernized and well equipped it was. Also we need midget subs!!!

[@FeedbackIRL]

We'll get midgets soon!

[@Zorro9129]

I love their floating hotels.

[@RocketHarry865]

Imagine a ww1 game where pre-dreadnoughts would be the base tier battleships. Tier 2 is Dreadnoughts (Dreadnought, Nassau), Tier 3 is Great War Battleships (Queen Elizabeth, Bayern) and then Tier 4 is Post War Battleships (all the pre-treaty battleship designs)

[@Tom-2142]

That’s the Great War mod.

[@eragon4249]

I once had the game glitch or something I had no idea how I did it but as the French I was able to build Joffre Carriers using 10 dockyards instead of 5. I didnt know it eas a glitch at the time because it was the first time I was making a navy playthrough as France. I have not been able to replicate the conditions to do it again

[@fransc486]

Just so everybody knows, Greece has acces to Cruiser Submarines too

[@keech100]

For the pedants - It was the Washington naval treaty restrictions I believe not Versailles I stand corrected. Specifically the Panzercheiff was the Versailles Battleships limits.

[@silverhost9782]

In the case of the Panzershiffe, it actually was Versailles

[@keech100]

@@silverhost9782 was there not tonnage restrictions as well that they circumvented?

[@silverhost9782]

@@keech100 Germany had its own restrictions separate from the first naval treaty if I remember correctly. It wasn't allowed any Dreadnought style BBs under Versailles, so it built the Panzershiffe in the 20s instead

[@notsoretrojakko4517]

Ages back I ran a game where under the Kaiser I would only use doctrine, unit setup, aircraft styles and ships from around WW1. I used the Pre Dreadnoughts, with some fairly late game tech fitted, and while I would loose a few, the sheer numbers allowed them to stomp on the AI fleets. Not like looses mattered, and at its peak I have upwards of 20 of them per fleet.

[@wetwillyis_1881]

I’m a Hoi4 Naval guy, and even I haven’t gone down the French Naval tree.

[@toonotsleep8]

Imo the only time I've used it is for a french 'align with Germany' run where you want to fight the Allied navies rather than the Axis so it has been used once... :D

[@lab-testedllamba8554]

If you invest early into the first couple naval focuses and then build between 10-20 dockyards (just in '36... maybe a few in 37) as Germany you can get (in addition to the capital ships already in the queue) around 2-3 super battleships, 4-6 good carriers and a good amount of light cruisers by mid-1939. Combine with Tac bombers, intelligence agency, and base strike doctrine to 'Pearl Harbour' (or just force to keep docked to repair) the UK fleet... and then slap the French fleet (if France is still about). I've found that an early investment in navy right out of the gates can make Germany a relatively unchallenged Atlantic naval power by late-'40 imo. But keep some carrier fighters and/or heavy fighters over the fleet in '39-'40 while dealing with the UK, or Winston will eat your fleet! I love playing an early navy investment Germany game because it feels rewarding to experiment and plan, opens up the seas for operations anywhere, and basically secures unlimited resources (without just rolling the Netherlands in '37 for the East Indes lol). It also means '40-'41 becomes a crucial period for remodeling your army for attacking the USSR and supporting Japan against the US (E.g. securing the Caribbean and linking up), which is a really fun challenge imo.

[@12gark]

To me, if you want to have a fun naval game in Europe, Italy is way more fun than Germany. You can really focus on naval forces: good marines, good navy (and you start with something useful), and no worry about having tanks and stuff for Barbarossa because Germany will do big part of the 'boring' stuff (infantry, shitty tanks to kill France and so on) for you. The main advantage you have as Italy, is that you can play with the Mediterranean: you either try to lock the royal navy inside (taking Gibraltar and Suez and kill it), or you sneak out just before Danzig and then you can sea lion pretty easily or fight the British in the North Sea. Once I also did a really funny run where I asked Japan for dock access, and went on a fun Pacific Campaign (I wanted the achievement to nuking California in a less obvious way than 'Roman Empire in 1937'). I really hope for a good focus tree in the next update, because it's easy to have a good, fun game as Italy.

[@lab-testedllamba8554]

@@12gark I love playing Italy! Trying to execute a Mediterranean-wide amphibious suprise assault to simultaneously capture Suez and Gibraltar (Kinda Japan '41-style) is super fun to plan. Then expanding into the Indian ocean. Fingers crossed the new focus tree will allow for even more naval shenanigans

[@12gark]

@@lab-testedllamba8554 I'll find a way to naval invade Vladivostock and Rio de Janeiro in the same week again, I promise. And yes, I really did it once 😂

[@janslavik5284]

I just wish they would make a separate production for convoys. While building ships is cool the results of not having enough convoys can be fatal, therefore I rarely make anything else than convoys and subs unless I'm doing a navy specific run.

[@154Kilroy]

I've definitely gone down the naval path for France. France can actually produce a ton of ships because they have so much steel and Chromium. Also, I think the pre-dread template only exists in the game because Germany had a pair of them. Otherwise I doubt they would have been included in game. *edit, yeah, I definitely go down the German naval tree too. I like the Navy, and am always disappointed when mods and devs neglect focuses for it. I don't understand the dislike. You don't really have to micromanage like you do on land. And it's super satisfying to build a fleet and massacre the Allied fleets.

[@tragarts]

Carrier submarines exist

[@azh698]

Pre-Dreadnought battleship means the guns are not in big turrets close to the ship's central axis, they are in side sponsons (like the guns of the mark 1 to mark 5 British tanks!) on either side.

[@azh698]

Needless to say, they were horribly obsolete by this stage, the age of the pre-dreadnought battleship was from about 1870 to 1906 (when the origina HMS Dreadnought was launched).

[@confusedturtle2275]

predrednought does not mean what you say it means. It literally just means that it isnt an "all big-gun" battleship, built before the HMS Dreadnought

[@CplBurdenR]

The sponson guns were the secondary or intermediate battery. They still had their primary battery in turreted barbettes. (had been since the 1870s). Pre-Dreadnoughts had a truly bewildering array of calibres. Confused Turtle is correct.

[@27000ants]

I just wish coastal defense ships had more reason to be used, because as they are now a slightly more expensive heavy cruiser is far more effective in basically everything and has more than 2 times more health

[@ricardoandre7049]

Im going to do put a bit of history knowladge about the ships and ship type Feedback talked in the video 1st HMS Vanguard - The last Battleship ever built by britain, it was considered a Fast Battleship due to its speed . The Class Vanguard Belong, the Lion Class was ordered due to britain seeing they would be outnumbered in battleship hull against a German and Japanese Battleships. The Lion class was meant to have 16 inch guns but due to delays in making said caliber guns and due to the availability of 15inch guns, it was ultimatly decided to redesign so that it was able to have the 15 inch guns. Ship was comissioned in 1946 and served the RN until 1960, it was used as a Royal Yacht. 2nd Pre-Dreadnought - As feedback said this type of ships are essentially the capital ships designed before the introduction of HMS Dreadnought on the seas, the main diference of the dreadnough type Battleship and a pre-dreadnough is the gun arrengement, the number of calibers between guns per ship and various other things. these design decision essentially made the ships made before her useless, that why it was a big change. The ships Germany Start with of this type are a relic that exist due to the treaty of versaille 3rd Panzershiff or Pocket Battleship in English - As feedback said, this german ships were Cruisers with guns larger than what heavy cruisers had (8inch guns) as per the Washington Naval Treaty. This was the German way to have large gun ships under the tonnage restriction of the verssaile treaty. The Deutchland Class Pocket Battleships were later reclassefied by the Kriegsmarine as Heavy cruisers later in the war. the very large range ingame is due to their intended mission, raiding of far away covoys. the most famous engagement of the Pocket Battleships is the Hunt for KMS Graf Spee. she sunk at the coast of Uruguai, thousands of KM from germany 4th Cruiser Submarine - as the name indicates, its a submarine intended to operate for a long time at sea. Both Germany and Japan as Feedback said had them in IRL but they were not the only ones, the US, Italy, the Soviets and RN also had their own version. the Most nothable use of this type of submarine besides the pacific submarine campaign was the convoy raiding done by german U-Boats at the carribean and the delivery of information to japan during wartime by germany using these subs. 5th Coastal Defence Ships - What the name says. what this ship represents ingame is those heavy ships that came from WW1 era not as powerfull nor not as ocean going as full capital ships, as the names says their only intended mission was coastal defence 6th Torpedo Cruiser - What the name says , a cruiser whose main armement are torpedos. This was concept was developed by Japan due to them realising they would be outnumbered in nearly all naval engagements in a possible war with the allies, as such they intended to use torpedo night atacks to even the odds, that was the reason of the developement of the higly eficient long lance torpedo ( Type 93) and their respective aerial and subamrine versions, the best torpedo fielded in WW2, with more range and ebing more stealthy than all other torpedos at the start of the war and at the end, mantaigning a very large edge in range and still being one of the stealthiest. It was a pure oxigen torpedo while others used air or air enrichd with oxigen as fuel. For more information about the torpedo go to Drachinafel´s video. The cruiser´s were the Kuma Class refited ships and they had a a 20 torpedo broadside and they had 40 torpedo lunchers in total. 7th Yamato Class Battleships - A class of ships intended to be 4 ships, while on 3 were completed and only 2 as battleships. they had 9 18.1 inch gun barrels mounted in 3 triple turrets with the most amount of armour in raw thickness ever put on the sea. for those who know the iowa class, Yamato while outmatched in long range shooting due to the supiriror american naval radar could tear Iowa open as the 18.1 inch guns had more penetrative capaibility than the 16inch/55 caliber mark 7 gun of the iowa class at longer ranges while at closer they had about the same. this class had a 72k tons of displacement being the largest battleship ever put to see. its class menber not completed as a battleship was Shinano, and was the largest carrier built in ww2 also having about the same tonnage as her battleship counterparts but not being a very good carrier cause she only had about the same airgorup capacity as a carrier thrice smaller. it was still very capable of being used as a suport carrier tho, having the space to acomodate the largest amount of ordenance and avgas than any other IJN carrier. alas Shinano´s carrier was cut short when in the 1st week of sailing she was torpedoed and sunk by a US subamrine operationg of the coast of japan. Here it is. any mistake pls point out, but im confident it will be hard to find. :)

[@berkehan4808]

Thanks for the info!

[@simpai941]

Small correction, There were 5 Yamatos planned, Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Ship #111, and Ship #797. The last 2 never received an official name and only #111 started construction, being scrapped at 30% completion.

[@ricardoandre7049]

True, mistake of mine. Thanks.

[@josephdedrick9337]

if not mistaken due to the USN 16in superheavy shell the iowas and yamatos had similar penetration values at most ranges.

[@ricardoandre7049]

Closer ranges, that is true. But for longer ranges the 18.1 shells come on top

[@DinoSmith-dy6jl]

Hitoricly Costal defence ships was a way for navies that could not afford battleships to have something to defend against lager ships. They are basiclky The pansershif but only for defending The Coast agaist larger ships Plz correkt me if am wrong i would happily learn more

[@dietzlel1423]

Not entirely correct. Panzerschiffe are fast and barely armored, while Coastal Defense Ships tend to be well armored and slow. Panzerschiffe also never ever want to get in a fight with a larger opponent while thats kinda the job of the coastal defense ship

[@silverhost9782]

@@dietzlel1423 The panzerschiffe were literally built using Norwegian/Swedish coastal defence ships as a basis. They were well armoured for their size but were relatively slow, which is standard for the type

[@DinoSmith-dy6jl]

@@dietzlel1423 i didnt mean that they hade the same purpos i meant that both was heavely guned but smaller ships My english is not very good so im sry if I confused u. U are right about all the panzershif stuff

[@themecha47]

the naval game is so fun but production is SO slow and your navy sometimes just destroys or gets destroyed. its inconsistant

[@scott3017]

I love Japan's cruiser subs. They're the way to go for an early game invasion of the USA. Invade Attu island for that last bit of range and you can hit Portland Oregon from Hokkaido

[@RedShocktrooperRST]

Funnily enough the scout plane on that thing's IRL counterpart is actually the only actual enemy aircraft to have ever bombed the continental US

[@sld1776]

Or you can get naval access from El Salvador....

[@theCharmoftheSeer]

If you design a ship of the same hull tech level as the Vanguard or Joffre (or Richelieu/Yamato), give the design the same name as in the focus and then complete the focus, the ship you get will be as you designed.

[@Nate-ub5xk]

Coastal defence ships IRL as far as I understand were basically pre-dreadnoughts in the size of a light cruiser that were pretty much only designed to operate in coastal waters or around islands in defence of a nation, hence why they're mainly used by smaller navies that couldn't afford much bigger but needed something to scare off larger warships. (In example Finland has two of them in game that were built to deter the soviet Baltic fleets heavy cruisers and battleships as they couldn't afford much and needed battleship esque firepower)

[@notabyzantophile]

America also has the cruiser submarine by doing one of their naval focuses.

[@jayhenry2197]

Great for blockading Cape Horn and Cape Verde without having to Join a faction. Cruiser sub basically lets America cut off the Pacific and Atlantic oceans.

[@davidmurnane1903]

Greece does as well.

[@0giwan]

Yep, historically I think they were Tench-class boats. Gatos and Balaos seem to be the HOI4 equivalent of Sub 3s.

[@jayhenry2197]

@@0giwan I have a few notes on the historical classes. I agree about the Tench class, but they started production around '44. So I guess we get them earlier than usual. I have Gatos as '41 which I took to be like Sub II mk2. Balaos I usually use as Sub III. They were in production in '43 and were the most built. Those dates might be off; there were a lot of classes crammed into just few years. So glad to meet someone else who follows the historical classes!

[@ghostarmy1106]

Now since the yamatos technically arent unique we might aswell add the russian battleships and super heavies here: 2 1936 battlecruisers (1 at 50% one at 35%) and 3 super heaby battleships (1 at 50% two at 25%)

[@Zack_Wester]

Eh the Yamato was unic and if I recall Japan did try and build two of them sadly only one was actually finished (the 75% done when you do the focus tree option the other one at 50% was aborted or destroyed in a attack while been built).

[@CplBurdenR]

@@Zack_Wester Japan actually completed three, Yamato, Musashi and Shinano, although Shinano was converted to an Aircraft Carrier.

[@imreallynoob8311]

@@Zack_Wester they tried to build 4 of them 3 were complete as the guy before me stated The shinano is convert to aircraft carrier due to the lost of japans main carrier force at midway

[@carterowen1241]

For historical game I do navy of Germany first to get a bunch of subs and convoy along with a bunch of cruisers subs for the Atlantic and sub 2 with a CSub with a catapult to do damage around England and med and if u have Netherlands and Dutch East Indies a lot of damage. Same if u have docking access in Japan Venezuela and other South America nations. You also avoid blowing 2 100 day bonus for construction on 37 tech and can get 39 a year ahead

[@DefaultProphet]

Coastal defense ships have nothing to do with the London or Washington Naval Treaties. They are generally made because you couldn’t afford a battleship OR you had some extra battleship guns laying around and no plans to use them

[@ayuvir]

I'mma put this out there as a sort of idea for a technology rework as I believe naval is mostly overlooked because of how many more important technologies there are and how many more important focuses there are. I'm not sayng that naval is entirely useless and that you can't focus in naval. here goes: For a possible HoI5 I believe we'd need something like a bureau system as well as a GDP system or a "currency" system, and technology would work by atributing funding to certain sectors i.e more naval funding towards the naval bureau would increase build/repair speed of ships as well as better admiral performance, crew performance and naval tech speed. The naval bureau would then have one research slot so you can work on major naval techs such as ship hulls and ship specific systems. Same for army and air. Industrial funding increases build speed etc... I finda that, since PDX seem so keen on making these tech trees with as many unlocks as possible, railroading research a little bit like this would make most players unlock certain stuff they otherwise would never and would allow for some experimentation during games. I'm half drunk thinking about this but I'd really like to see some stuff like this. Would make balancing focus trees much easyer example: many older trees have certain debuffs that you can never get rid of if you never go down certain paths, which makes no sense. I recently played France to try the heavy tank exploit you showed and found that it was ridiculous that France, a major power could spend a good chunk of their focus tree whithout ever increasing tech slots whereas stuff like Poland can get an easy extra slot during their romanian coup downtime.

[@Zack_Wester]

another thing I hope we see that make large ships senible. is ship self repair of light damadge. destoryer taking one hit will in mose case cause it to take enouth damadge that it goes can´t fix this back to port. battleship take a hit (turret down for the next 7 hour will be back at 99% efficient tomorrow).

[@BaronVonAnime]

Pre-Dreadnought: The 2 from the start I only use to keep the soviet fleet at bay in the baltic sea, they don't really have any more use then that. Panzerschiff: I like them for long range raiding/ cross-Atlantik invasions early on. Cruiser Submarine: I only use them for spotting alongside my regular submarines. Coastal Defense Ship: If I got them at the start of the game I'll use them just to defend my coast from invasions with naval bombers as support. Torpedo Cruiser: Fun little death machine to bully the Americans >:) The only times I really spend time building up fleets is when I kind of just wanna play for fun with no goal in mind

[@Waldemarvonanhalt]

IMO the cruiser sub doesn't make sense. IRL the German long range submarine variants were much larger than the common VII class and had more torpedo tubes etc. If you're not getting more range (without add-ons) and slots for it, there's no point in ever trying to get cruiser subs.

[@connori1324]

Great video. Could you do one similar if there are planes or divisions?

[@elementalgolem5498]

Feedback, sorry to say mate the US had the dreadnaught beat. But due to a slight delay and some other issues they didn't get to launch their "dreadnaught" untill a few months after the British one. However it was already then technologically superior in every aspect. Sparking another development from the British navy etc etc. I'm talking about the south Carolina class

[@smacky101]

Before this video I discovered cruiser submarines quite by accident. I had the same idea presented here once I saw you could put catapults on them. I kept roughly a quarter of my dockyards to the cruiser subs and rest to line subs fitted for damage. Seemed to work pretty well. I recommend it and am glad to see it here.

[@paquox6827]

Cruiser subs are also available to Italy via the BBA tree i think and France starts with the Surcouf-Class in 1936

[@willywonka6487]

The panzershiff actually works. I just used them in a vanilla 1.13 playthrough and got about 12-13 done before the war started. They need some critical mass so put them in two groups of 6 each and assign them to the most critical convoy squares. They actually slaughter the cruiser+destroyer mini fleets the UK sends to hunt them. You need to baby sit them a bit and use medium repair priority, Im pretty sure high priority is bugged and has the wrong values in the defines.

[@Chickentopramen123]

I tried doing a Japanese convoy raiding fleet of just destroyers and torpedoes once. I found it surprisingly effective with the long-lance torpedoes as they were quick and would sink whatever they wanted.

[@brianpaulandaya]

9:24 PTSD flashbacks to going against Fubukis and Shimakazes in World of Warships

[@rundownthriftstore]

I would argue 1 Torp Cruiser > 6 torp destroyers as you can fit armor on cruisers. However I’m not a 100% sure on how armor works, like how does a high armor ship compete against torpedo bombers?

[@leiaorgana5098]

Against planes it would probably get shredded like everything else, unless it had a lot of aa to back it up or fighters of your own. But amour against light ships it would benefit from having it, if given a light cruiser battery it would be classified as a light cruiser and therefore classified as a screening ship in game. Just like destroyers but bigger, more guns and better armoured to handle light attack. Light cruises are more effective and have more HP then destroyers. The only downside is the cost and time it takes to make them compared to destroyers.

[@rps215]

I completely ignored the meta for some time, or maybe followed the old meta. I build only light cruisers and put as many guns as I can on them and the best armor. As these things are practically screens, large ships have a bad time targeting them while the armor let them shrugs off light attacks and the guns shred enemy light ships. The only threat to them being enemy carriers and land based aircraft.

[@danielgloyd4529]

Torpedoes ignore armor if they hit. I'm not sure how the naval bomber damage is calculated, but I would assume armor only applies to naval attacks.

[@silverhost9782]

If memory serves, cruisers don't actually want any armour equipped, since speed is so important

[@melfice999]

Torpedo Cruisers are amazing on vanilla as surface raiding force in Vanilla, as they have better range to fight in pacific, and due to fact they got better Range, you can use "Sasebo Naval Arsenal" designer to cut their cost without killing their range too absurdly much. And if you use the "Surprise Attack" naval spirit, they tend to be fast enough to retreat before the slower fleets of US can catch them. And even if you do get into a fight, they have enough torpedo attack to put serious hurt to any surface fleet due to wonky PDX Torpedo mechanisms. Also if cost is not an issue (and its really not, as Torp Cruisers are really cheap due to all they want is some AA, Catapult and loads and loads of Torps) you can also use "Maizuru Naval Arsenal" for that extra 10% speed to make them even more devastating, or retrofit your cheap "Sasebo Torpedo Cruisers" to "Maizuru Cruisers".

[@Zack_Wester]

one thing whit the coastal defence ship is that it got a battleship gun but it does not suffer battleship sized ship panalties for fighting in anything thats not the ocean (half of the baltics are just negative stats for any large ship) the other half is neutral for heavy large ships. costal defence floorish there. so you got a ship that can punch ships that are way above its waight class when it fights on its home turf.

[@JamesMason-ho5xe]

I think you forgot the Averof Class for Greece ship.

[@WalrusJones185]

So on "Crappy torpedo ships", if you can get the reload speed upgrade and accuracy upgrades for torpedoes on your admiral, you can reach a critical mass situation where inexpensive torpedo destroyers give considerably more damage versus fast evasive light ships then light batteries do, since the admiral can increase torpedo attack by 40%, reduce their reload malices by 25% (Making them only fire approx 1/4th as fast as guns as opposed to a sixth,) and increase their accuracy until its unironically competitive with light attack. (Lancer+Destroyer leader + loading drills + torpedo expert.) It takes very few improvements for the 7 to 15x greater availability of torpedo attack to become universally superior to gun attack... Close combat in the naval school of thought only makes it easier to hit the extreme levels of torpedo efficiency.

[@mr__music5719]

Making Torpedo cruisers aren't worthwhile. If screening is at 100% for the enemy you have 0% to penetrate. 20% increase chance at 0 is still 0.

[@12gark]

Torpedos are useful if you can kill screens, otherwise they're useless. If you have dedicated light attack ships to kill the screens, then you can easily torpedo down an entire fleet with just a few torpedoes. But I agree that generally speaking, if you can kill the screens, you don't need a dedicated ship with torpedoes, you may just have a torpedo launcher 1 on your roach destroyers and let it be.

[@danielgloyd4529]

USA can get cruiser subs also, from the focus fleet submarines I think it's called.

[@scumbaggaming9418]

I actually run a mod that allows you to access the hidden ships in the game through the research tree It's useful, kinda, but I just use it for the larp

[@ChristianNelsonn]

Some context; - The cruiser submarine is simply the best submarine to use, until sub-IV. And the only reason to switch to Sub-IV after that is because the latter has a lower visibility, but you can still rule the seas just with the cruiser subs, and they are cheaper than sub-IV. - If you have never built a surface fleet with the Germans, you're missing out. Yes, they are expensive, but surface raiding is so much more effective than submarine raiding. And if you build 10-15 Panzerschiff (not the vanilla one, design your own with radar, 2 main guns, torp launcher and at least 1 secondaries + 80mm armour and the highest engine you have available so that the speed is above 25-26knots) you will absolutely wreck everything (within reason). Just make sure to mark the seas in the immediate vicinity of Britain as no-go zones and don't assign your ships any missions there until you have built enough fleet numbers and air power to take the Home Fleet on. I have no idea why it works but literally today I had a game with surface raiders where even in battles against multiple cruisers and DDs, a single Panzerschiff just kept sanking everything. Easy 15+ convoy wipes. No escorts. Just single Panzerschiff in the entirety of the Atlantic (not too close to the US coasts, Canada OK) cruisers. I also used Gneisenau and Scharnhorst + a CA-III and they did very well as well. And a few CA-3 divisions of 2. Complemented by a main force of cruiser subs. But the surface raiders were by far the star of the show. Absolutely annihilated the Allied convoys and their screens and held up really well against main fleets, with only 2-3 sank in nearly 20 years of warfare. Make sure your Navy commander is Donitz and pick the surface raider fleet thingy as shown in the video. - German pre-Dreadnought ship is there because under Versailles terms, Germany was only allowed to build pre-Dreadnought batteships and only build new ships after 20 years with ships no larger than 10,000 tons. In the game, it's simply historical flavour and there's no reason to build it. - Following from that, while the British and the French were bound by the Washington Naval Treaty to build cruisers no larger than 10,000 tons and 203mm guns, the Germans didn't have the gun size limitation (because they weren't part of the Washington Naval Treaty but the Versailles). The Panzerschiff was designed to convince the British and the French into allowing Germany into the Washington Treaty so that they could start a proper naval rearmament program. German thinking was that because the Panzerschiff were so much powerful than what they had, the Brits and the French would be convinced to accept Germany, in exchange for cancelling the ships. But the French had none of it and convinced the Brits to reject the Germans. So the Germans built the ships and later signed a separate treaty with Britain which allowed Germany to build roughly 1/3 the fleet Britain possessed.

[@blitzkrieg8776]

They really do need to change the production cost of ships, or at least make an advisor for those nations that get them to significantly reduce the cost of them.

[@NoahsBox]

I think the USA can get cruiser subs via focus as well, but I'm not 100% sure because I play a lot of mods and I might be remembering mod content.

[@dryhad9253]

0:58 "How many times have you gone down the naval path for France?" Dave, if you put a gun to my head and asked me to describe the naval path for France you may as well pull the trigger because I couldn't say with confidence that I know France even has a naval path.

[@154Kilroy]

A tip for the Navy, building cheap ships is actually a terrible idea. I've tried it. It's sucks. Just build the absolute best template you can. The AI doesn't build good ships. Usually tier I and II ships with the randomized template designer. So if you build something actually good, it usually takes pretty minimal damage because the enemy ships just get sunk or retreat. If you build a Tier II fleet with 2-4 carriers, 5-8 battleships, 6-10 heavy cruisers, 10-12 light cruisers and 20-28 destroyers, you can basically take on any fleet pretty easily. The more ships you're fighting, the more your Admiral gets to level up. I've got over 4,000 hours on this game, and the Navy is my favorite thing. I've tried all sorts of combinations and that seems to work best. Obviously only bigger countries can do that. If you're a minor, subs work fine, with perhaps a few destroyers to escort naval invasions so they don't get killed by enemy subs.

[@rps215]

Mexico also starts with coastal defense ships and some countries can unlock it via focus. I wonder why they classify Georgios Averof as one of these instead of Cruiser 1.

[@-John-Doe-]

France starts with Cruiser Subs. They also have Engine III for destroyers And medium howitzers for tanks.

[@frankfletcher_1]

There's another premade hull you can get, Sovetsky Soyuz class Basically nobody knows because nobody does red navy

[@patriotproductions2486]

Yeah the cruiser subs are OP. I’ve played Greece many times and they have a focus as well that unlocks them. Believe it’s on the right side of the naval tree. Their excellent to use against the crappy Italian and British subs. Mind you I don’t use them for range much as my fighting as Greece is limited to the Mediterranean, but for spotting it’s a god send.

[@Milesofgaming]

When that infinite naval production exploit was still a thing, I made like 1000 of the Yamato and just absolutely destroyed any other navy.

[@jke5486]

Cruiser Sub is also for the Soviets unlocked through a National Focus in the Navy Branch.

[@kucimaka8092]

that was probably my first hoi video about navy lmao

[@din0x89]

I love Navy so i really does the Navy tree of Germany when boring waiting fighting the Allies.

[@forrestsory1893]

The United States has this cruiser submarine in its focus tree as well. So it can hit Japanese home islands early in the war. The Japanese have the same thing so they can hit the West Coast of the United States as well.

[@kommandantgalileo]

I despise people who don't build a proper navy

[@FeedbackIRL]

🤓

[@kommandantgalileo]

@@FeedbackIRL yes, I'm a nerd

[@kellymcbright5456]

The coolest one is the super-heavy Battleship II. Its hull is even stronger than that of the available SBB. It is available for no one as to what i know. I use to make it available by focus-trees.

[@josephcola9662]

Greece can also get cruiser subs from its focus tree.

[@caseblue2232]

I think Kaiserreich did have these ships unlocked for every countries or at least most countries. Because every KR game I play I saw these ships, but never knew they were in the base game!

[@brianhoff141]

The RecBattleship Gremany was allow to keep after World War I. The Germany navy kept then as they where not allow to built Battleship. One of then was part off the invasion of Poleland in 1939 by bombmant of than polish fort near Dange.

[@kimpatz2189]

The torpedo cruiser in World of Warships: *torpedo wall of skill *WASD hack skills *the idiot filter Basically the other line of the IJN destroyer tech tree with a torpedo reload booster. Heavy area denial ships with ridiculously high camo rating. Dumps loads of stuff to battleships sailing in straight lines.

[@TalonAshlar]

Greece also gets cruiser subs

[@heb1796]

France starts with the cruiser sub, and Greece can get it through a focus too

[@grandly2214]

I think you can get cruiser submarines with Greece through the focus tree too I might be mistaken tho.

[@OneSecretPerson]

I'd usually get the cruiser Submarine as Greece, but I can't remember if that was with its new Focus tree, I think it was.

[@yoboi691]

The pre dreadnought could be spammed for a bluff against the allies, other than that, no use.

[@l00k69]

10:32 Yama-2

[@DALEKCATScraft]

Have you heard of the Realistic Naval Production mod? It speeds up the production of ships by a decent amount.

[@Eisendergusky]

I really only do subs, destroyers and light cruisers since everything else takes to long and hurts ti lose and I have killed lots if battleships with subs

[@Raptorsified]

In every game that I can I will build cruiser subs for spotting as they can fit floatplanes. I just love the idea of aircraft taking off from a submersible. Though maybe it's actually more cost effective than an equivalent cruiser

[@unbredbeast]

Ace combat 6 fan I see

[@30cal23]

huh i always went for quality in my navy by putting all the best shit (id use sonar on destroyers for ASW and radar on shit like aircraft carriers and cruisers) im going to try mass producing shitty ones and see how that works

[@parkerdaniel960]

Dude how do I get enemy navies to engage with me? Played as Japan and beat China in 1939, made a BEEFY navy but could never get murica to engage with me. Just ended up taking the whole damn pacific with no pushback.

[@madensmith7014]

Naval invade their ports and force them out

[@madensmith7014]

Or one thing I like to do is turn off strike force and have decent patrol fleets to bait their ships out and last a bit before the main fleet arrives

[@silverhost9782]

Well, sounds like you don't even need them to engage. You've scared them into staying in port which means you can do what you want

[@parkerdaniel960]

@@silverhost9782 Yeah but its dumb, consider the battle of Midway 1942, the US navy was heavily outmatched by the IJN but still engaged.

[@parkerdaniel960]

@@madensmith7014 What's a good patrol fleet in your opinion? I've really never gotten the hang of Navy in HOI4 as far as getting good results in purely naval engagements, it's always just been naval bomb the hell out of the enemy if I'm Italy or Japan or just torture supply lines as Germany or annihilate anything that comes my way as US.

[@ADobbin1]

If I understand correctly historically the panzerschiff was designed as a merchant raider hence the range in game.

[@benoitlabrecque4513]

German pocket batleships where active in south america (where one was sunk) their range does make sense

[@yeeterdeleter4101]

I woke up for this, and I wasn’t disappointed

[@FeedbackIRL]

😴

[@someoneelse2472]

How about submarine that has pool inside it that can hold battleships, carriers and screens on it. Secretly deploying these at area ...

[@Wolfspaule]

6:18 the Japanese took a dismantled Tiger 1 from Germany to Japan in one of their Cruiser Uboot.

[@COALROCK8642]

You forget the converted cruiser carriers. They are meta. Cheaper. Plus it it expected that you rusha 1940s plane. It's fleet keep them on strike force.

[@kommandantgalileo]

France also has a cruiser sub

[@Klaevin]

cruiser submarine is also accessible to France

[@andromidius]

USA can make Crusader Submarines too. Only benefit to them that I can see is they have much longer range.

[@suxix7312]

Do you have to produce scout planes too or do you just have to put the catapult on the ship and it works?