The Hidden Value of Old-School Design (Sonic the Hedgehog) | GEEK CRITIQUE

[@BHox01]

Your argument is very emblematic of Sega's design philosophies, not just Sonic's. Very reminiscent of arcade games, at least compared to most other developers. Interesting point that the difficulty complaints have generally flipped over the years. Definitely interesting and I cant think of another example like that off the top of my head.

[@sonicdv3953]

And that's the reason I love sega. Arcade style games are much more fun

[@erikfredriksen9273]

is that THE Bhox? from grsmash??

[@BHox01]

@@erikfredriksen9273 LOL

[@shignificent]

@@BHox01 Clutch God

[@Tacom4ster]

This KZbinr call it the "Sega Learning Curve" not for everyone, but I enjoy replaying stages getting high scores and S Ranks kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWGkq6qqp8mrnbM

[@hyperventalated]

You also unintentionally described the fundamental enjoyment in speedrunning! The added replayability a rewarding feeling at getting better at controlling the game and beating it faster and faster, as well as alternate goals within that game, are at the core of speedrunning, and Ive never truly though about how sonic exemplifies that perfectly!

[@lornearmstrong4999]

Yuji Naka specifically designed Sonic with these principals in mind. He was afraid that people wouldn't really get it so they added stages like Marble and Labyrinth to Sonic 1

[@autobotstarscream765]

I wouldn't necessarily say it was unintentional; the two subjects tend to run together, especially when considering Sonic, which was literally conceived as Speedrunning the Game starting Speedrunning the Hedgehog, hence why the emphasis on his speed in other media and marketing long before "boost to win" was a thing, because his speed wasn't originally his core weapon, it was the main reward for skill mastery that incentivized replay, which if I understand correctly is the core principle of speedrunning.

[@GameboyFanatic]

@@lornearmstrong4999 So it is true then, the normies DO ruin everything!

[@LiveForFuntasy]

I think a lot of the classic Sonic hate comes from people who were too acclimated to Mario style platforming before they ever played Sonic. Ever since the 90s even to today, I still hear people refer to Sonic's rings as coins. And speaking of rings, the ring system is designed to function like a safety net for beginners. If you're not used to the speed or layout you will likely get hit, but with how generous the rings are and easily picked back up you can keep progressing without dying even as a beginner. And it is also rewarding for skilled players since you get extra lives and bonuses for collecting enough rings without taking a hit. Classic Sonic games were so well thought out, and it pains me so see someone try to brute-force their way through the game, still beat the level, but complain anyway about the game being "unfair" because they took a lot of hits.

[@GeekCritique]

I really do think Mario has a lot to do with the "paradox" complaints. Or more specifically how many 2D platformers are codified in Mario's mechanics. Just about everything nowadays, aside from Freedom Planet, is a take on Mario's mechanics. But Sonic stood out for how DIFFERENT it was from Mario. So if players approach Sonic expecting it to play like Mario, they're going to get frustrated.

[@duffman18]

@@GeekCritique funnily enough I had the opposite problem. I never played a mario game till I was about 12 and got SMB 3 for the GBA, but I'd had years of playing sonic games on the mega drive. And so I found the Mario games ludicrously difficult, because I was trying to play them like a sonic game. I found it so unfair that you died after one or two hits, and that to defeat an enemy you had to be very precise jumping on their head as opposed to jumping at them from any angle. And I tried speeding through each level even when being slow and methodical was the best way. Eventually though I did learn how to play 2D mario games and I love them very dearly now. But I very nearly destroyed my GBA a lot of times back in the early 2000s with that frustration. It's especially frustrating when the prevailing wisdom is that "mario games are all very easy and intended for young kids" and yet I was having so much trouble with them and couldn't get past the second world in SMB3. Also yeah you're exactly right about the weird shift in opinion in the 21st century to saying that classic sonic games are apparently really difficult. It baffled me for so long when it was always mario fans who were saying it, as again I was the opposite. I found sonic easy because I'd had years with it so I couldn't understand it. Back in the mega drive days though, sonic games were always the easiest I had in my collection. I had more difficult games like Strider and the Lion King and even James Pond II and I could never complete them. Never completed any game other than the sonic ones back then.

[@TheMGMfan]

@@GeekCritique Ironically, Sonic is actually inspired by Mario, which may seem obvious at first because what platformer isn't inspired by Mario in some way, especially back then, but most of those games leave out the momentum of Mario. The most notable example is with acceleration, as you don't go top speed the instant you press the run button, you gradually pick up speed up until you hit top speed, and Mario will instantly speed up if you stay at top speed long enough in 3 and World; this also affects jumping, as the more momentum you have, the farther you can jump. This momentum actually adds allows you to speed through the levels a la a Sonic level, and this isn't a coincidence. While most platformers completely leave out the momentum, Sonic games turn it up to eleven and add physics into the equation, allowing a skilled player to go several times faster than they ever could in a Mario game.

[@lightgivemepower6425]

@@TheMGMfan and even more ironically super Mario bros. Was inspired by pacman.

[@rylangideon1487]

i know Im randomly asking but does any of you know of a way to get back into an instagram account..? I stupidly lost the password. I love any tricks you can offer me

[@RacingStripeAV]

Whenever I see someone go "Sonic punishes the player for going fast", my counter argument usually goes (and as a veteran fan, this is just my personal take on the series): Sonic isn't about _speed_ , but _momentum_ ; "speed" is just another piece in a much larger puzzle. The 8-bit Sonic titles - compared to their 16-bit counterparts - are pretty slow, but they still _feel_ like a Sonic game because of its focus on _momentum_ over _speed_ . To translate the logic over: One of the games I had for my PS1 was Wipeout 2097 (or Wipeout XL for the Americans). It is a critically acclaimed racing game, beloved by all. And yet 12-year-old me *hated* it: I was in the fastest craft, I was playing on the fastest speed, and I had my thumb digging into the accelerator button... but there I was, crashing into every wall, failing to complete every stage having the worst time with it. I mean, to use "Sonic's Paradox of Speed": You'd think that being a game where you have to complete it in the fastest time possible, the notion of slowing down (easing on the gas, or perish the thought, applying the brakes) sounds counterintuitive, and you're constantly being punished for "going fast". But once you start using those tools, the game gets.. I wouldn't say "easier", more "less difficult", it's still a pretty hard game, but "better", certainly. And armed with that knowledge in mind, I have a much greater appreciation for that game and the series as a whole: Wipeout HD Fury was one of my favourite games on the PS3; were I to have a PS4, I'd probably be playing Omega Collection right now. As much as a tangent as the previous paragraph is, I find Sonic to be similar: the moment I started seeing the Sonic games as "racing games disguised as platformers", everything clicked into place. All of the obstacles and enemies you have to slow down to avoid are just tight corners you need to ease off the gas to get into and speed out of with ease. And with each "lap" of the "track", you have the opportunity to beat it a _teensy_ bit faster. To anyone who "Sonic is bad because it fast but it no like fast" - play Mario Kart with only the accelerator always down: No brakes, no letting go of the gas. Because that game is about beating is as fast as possible, and you _still_ have to slow down to do so.

[@enderallygolem]

Wait people actually let go of the acceleration button in mario kart?

[@Lightspeeds]

Dude, your story explains my childhood experience with Jet Moto 2.

[@jafortune]

I suppose the big difference in this is the presence of information. In racing games you can see the track ahead of you, and how tight the turn is. Often they will even include a minimap that will pre-empt you on this information. You can know the first time you run any course what to do at each turn. Classic sonic games and their tight cameras don't tell you much of what's about to hit, the skill is not based on recognition but memorization. Racing games are fair about this paradox, sonic games are not.

[@sasaki8765]

I mean....That thing you said Mario Kart is kind of not correct. Being able to always have the acceleration mashed down is kind of the point. If you're a good racer who makes good decisions you should be able to pull that off. That said, I totally understand your point.

[@alaeriia01]

The thing is, with Mario Kart, if you have to slow down at all, you have failed. The game is designed that you can constantly have the A button held down and if you know the track, you'll be able to win.

[@SdudyoyO]

The argument that Sonic is all about going fast has always seemed odd to me, Sonic is about platforming -- Speed is the reward for getting good at the platforming.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

THIS

[@nux3960]

U the man!

[@Harrinsain]

more accurately Sonic is really 3 pillars, a triad if you will; Speed, Platforming and exploration. I'm sure you've heard this before, but literally every great Sonic game has mastered a harmony between these 3 elements. You go fast so that you can do the platforming challenges because there's a world for you to explore. Every game that has been weak in one of these areas has suffered for it. Sonic 2 and CD are two sides of the same coin in this regard. 2 cuts down on the exploration and is a shallower game because of it. While CD ramps up the exploration while forsaking speed. They both fail one aspect of the triad and so they're weaker than say....3&K or Mania (and 1's Green Hill) which are probably the only two games in the series to create a perfect mix of the triad

[@SdudyoyO]

Harrinsain!! Exploration is certainly another piece to what makes the original Sonic games so great! But, the different paths are either more difficult and faster, or easier but slower. In other words, the better you get at platforming, and the more you memorize the level layout, the faster you can go. Platforming, Experimentation, Mastering the layout by exploring and replaying the levels. You do this, and you’re rewarded with Sonic’s blazing blue speed. The best Sonic games give you the option to experiment new with paths, try different characters or just run through the level and push through without having to master the game. Some people prefer the more linear levels of Sonic 2 or the more exploration heavy levels of CD, me personally S3AK is my favorite, definitely want to go back and play it again.

[@Harrinsain]

of course, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[@Brian-rx9sp]

*The virgin modern game reviewer:* Classic Sonic games are so poorly designed. They punish the player for going fast. They haven't aged well at all. *The Chad 90s game reviewer:* lmao these Sonic games are so easy and short. I finished them in under a day.

[@PersTG]

This comment is so underrated.

[@jacobmonks3722]

All the classic Sonic games can be beaten in under 2 hours each. They aren't very difficult games. CD especially is a walk in the park if you're just going from Point A to point B.

[@trock1316]

When you beat sonic 3 and knuckles for the first time in 2 hours

[@Brian-rx9sp]

@@jacobmonks3722 Pretty much. When I was a kid, I struggled to play the classic Sonic games (granted I played the shitty DS ports which didn't help) but nowadays I can get through all of them in a single day. They're definitely the easier platformers of that era. That said, you wouldn't be getting the most out of them if you just finished them in 2 hours and put them down. There's still the Chaos Emeralds to hunt after and you can try to attempt to finish the levels as fast as possible and go for the best clear time, which is the main appeal of the games.

[@eMorphized]

The problem is that gamers have grown up, and now they're bored with playing things over and over again, trying endlessly until they master the game. Even RPGs back then had this mindset (case in point: half of the Genesis Classics collection), and now what reviewers praise is essentially playing a movie. Sure, I like the Metroid series for showing a narrative within the game, and allowing you to progress through the game in an obvious way, but I also like how it weaves the story into the gameplay itself, making the two halves inseparable. Sonic is completely different. When you play a Sonic game, you're not expected to be there for the story, or the environments, or the goalposts. Instead, you're there for satisfying gameplay, the feeling of accomplishment, the confidence that only comes with replaying and mastery, something today's gamers don't have the time to do. Kids, once the primary market, had the patience and the free time to replay and master their games; adults have responsibilities, and thus need to save their games, play through them in a satisfying manner, while still having the time to look at other things, play more games, and live their lives. In short: adults are busy, kids are not. With kids as the primary market, games are made to keep people busy; with adults as the primary market, gamers are designed to have compelling stories and experiences meant to be played once, because adults have other things to do.

[@kholdkhaos64ray11]

As long as you think of Sonic games as those really fun arguably quarter-munching arcade games (including the ones made by SEGA) instead of just another Mario-esque mascot platformer, you'll have a lot more fun with them. Not every game has to adhere to Mario's standards just like there isn't one way to make or look at art.

[@profc3027]

When you think of it that way... Saying sonic sucks because of the fan base is like saying the Mona Lisa sucks because the people who like it are kinda weird. No offense if you are those people.

[@theinktician]

that said, if you think of it as an old school mario game you should still have a ton of fun with it

[@VBrinkV]

Good point. Only Mario games originated in the arcades too. Donkey Kong and Mario Bros.

[@smashmaster521]

To be fair, the fans are partly to blame for Sonic's decline in quality. We don't know what we want, so SEGA ends up only catering to one section of the fanbase at the expense of the rest.

[@Agent-yw1kj]

Except sonic was never a arcade game, and never will be

[@ShadowStarkiller]

I think even the longer games of today should STILL be made to be replayable. You showed a clip of Fire Emblem Three Houses, which has only been out for a month, and I'm already on my 4th playthrough.

[@Thanatos2996]

It's not as common, but it still happens. I couldn't tell you how many times I've run through Dark Souls, and Sekiro will likely last me a few more playthroughs. Still, it's a shame so many games nowadays have bredth at the expense of depth.

[@jacobmonks3722]

@@Thanatos2996 It's not really a "new" game, but Final Fantasy VI is upwards of 30 hours and still has tons of replay value. I only played it for the first time two years ago, and I've already replayed it twice.

[@kylecampbell565]

Also Persona 5 I’m seriously considering doing new game plus so I can better optimize my time and try a new romance option

[@gluttonousmaximus9048]

Super Mario Odyssey is this for me.

[@turtleanton6539]

Yup

[@Drinkabeerandplayagameofficial]

Ill take it one further Having a AAA quality game that you can beat in a few hours is so refreshing. I beat Sonic Mania without getting all the emeralds, so while I didn’t see the the true ending, I felt satisfied by the time I was done, knowing I can always go back and push myself to get more of the game “done” each time

[@Squishito]

If only people would just learn the advanced skill of 'pressing the down button' then they might finally understand that Sonic is the easiest thing ever and the whole point of the game is about playing it well and enjoying it, not beating it.

[@eMorphized]

Gotta love that Super Sonic Spin Attack!

[@bbumbs747]

I think the reason why people don't think about pressing down is because you don't really do that in any other platformer,most characters like Mario would just duck when pressing down and it would have no impact on the gameplay, So if some random guy who plays Mario,Banjo or any other platformer played Sonic I doubt they would think of pressing down near a slope.

[@Squishito]

@@bbumbs747 Actually, this is quite ironic, but starting from Mario 3 if you press down on a slope then Mario could slide down them. They used that a lot too, it's been in every 2D game since.

[@GeekCritique]

I FEEL THE NEED, THE NEED to repudiate some comments: My argument here absolutely should not be read as, "Sonic is just going to be hard and unfair and NO FUN until you get good enough at it, so KEEP PLAYING IT even though you hate it~!" And my argument also isn't that, "Individual stages aren't going to be enjoyable until you get some ROTE MEMORIZATION under your belt, so keep working on finding that Golden Path!" If anything, I believe these games are great for the way they're so distinctly NOT that, and if I thought they were, I wouldn't have suggested that you try going back to the first stage if a tough zone is frustrating you. The point of the first stage, and the reason some people think they're the "only good parts" of Sonic games, is this: They're showing you how good you CAN be. Like the way a Metroid Prime game starts Samus off with tons of abilities and power-ups, it's giving you a taste of what high-level play might feel like. Of course, they also give you a more open sandbox to play with Sonic's mechanics and physics, and getting a better handle on THOSE will help you a thousand times more on a stage you're struggling with than just knowing the map will. While knowing the level layouts automatically happens through replaying over time, you don't need to do it to enjoy the game. Those of us who'd been playing these titles for years never got walled by ANYTHING in Sonic Mania, and it wasn't because we knew the level layouts, or could magically predict where every enemy and spike was going to be, we just knew how to control Sonic and understood the mechanics. That's why I encourage people near the end to learn the "flow" of Sonic's design. Most modern platformers take a lot more after Mario, but you can't approach Sonic like Mario, and it stood out in 1991 specifically _because_ it broke away from that design in pursuit of another strength. To use another metaphor, imagine a snowboarder trying out some kind of downhill course. The more he runs it, the faster and more spectacular he's going to be at it. But even if he's never done it before, just knowing the mechanics of HOW to snowboard well will enable him to enjoy it and complete it. Of course, becoming good at a skill like that takes time and effort, and it's inevitably going to be frustrating at first, but it won't take THAT long before you start getting better and enjoying the process. There's a reason all these games feature such similar mechanics and physics. Your skills in one transfer to all the others. (Although, I do think Sonic Mania has the most balanced skill curve of them all, so I'd definitely recommend starting there.) Finally, I want to clarify this: Speeding through a zone on a "golden path" is not at ALL the only way to have fun in these games, and I think that's one reason they tend to appeal to a wider audience than Sonic's more linear, spectacle-focused 3D outings. (I mean, I love a *lot* of those too, don't get me wrong.) One of my favorite things to do is go off my well-worn path and take my time more, uncovering routes that I haven't been on in YEARS, or even secrets I've never seen before. With a spin dash, you can launch yourself off of a hill and through a wall to an alternate route that bypasses the water section in Chemical Plant entirely. Ooh, and I just recently found a RISING LAVA section in Mania's Lava Reef that I'd never seen before! Again, I might not know the layouts of these paths, but I'm skilled at the mechanics, and putting those skills to use through something I'm not familiar with is a blast.

[@MarceloKatayama]

Route* Aside from that, I get where you're coming from, I first played a classic Sonic game when I was 9 on my DS, I was terrible, The next time I played a Sonic game was in 2016 with the Sonic 1 remake for mobile phones, and I had gotten a lot better, but it wasn't that much fun for me. Then I started watching your videos on 2018, and the one about Sonic 3 really convinced me that I should give Sonic another shot, So I downloaded Desmume and Sonic Classic collection, and started playing Sonic 3 and Sonic 2, as I got better in one of them, I got way better at the other, eventually, I left Sonic 2 on standby, and concentrated on Sonic 3, I went through it three times, and loved every second of it, and suddenly, I found myself blazing through Flying Battery, Hidrocity and Death Egg over and over like nobody's business, then I went back to Sonic 2, and I blazed through the game inexplicably, and it was because I already had a handle on what Sonic was and how it worked, and I had a blast playing through SOME of Sonic 2, because, well, metropolis, Oil Ocean and mystic cave exist

[@GeekCritique]

@@MarceloKatayama Nah, I meant "rote": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning And thanks for the comment! I sometimes wonder if my perspective still holds up, just because it's been so long since I first played them. Is it really fair for me, with 25 years of playing this series under my belt, to be making this argument? :P But knowing that was so recently YOUR experience definitely helps reassure me that I'm not just blinded by nostalgia, haha. And yeah, Metropolis is still the worst thing about Sonic 2. Great music, but MAN, I'm always ready for it to be over by the end of act 2.

[@Otome_chan311]

ngl the first level of the first 3 sonic games still suck. My diagnosis is that the game is way too zoomed in, and has the camera in the wrong location. Levels going backwards also doesn't help. If I were to redesign it I'd remove a lot of the verticality and backwards movement, make them more linear. 2D Sonic experience: First run, alright going, sudden cheap death by something entirely unpredictable due to moving too quick to respond. Second run, ok remember to dodge it this time, get launched way up into the air, lose sight of the ground, fall off endless pit and die. Third run, okay going, suddenly path loops you backwards and you're heading off towards the left, then down, then some zigzag shit, left, right, up, and now you're lost af and everything looks the same. Given that some parts had you go left, are you supposed to go left or right? Right is always the way you go in platformers so let's do tha- wall. Okay try left, spin dash to the left since there appears nothing in the way, ends up being spikes right off screen and dashed right into them, death. Next run, things going well but just rushing to get back to where I was, momentum went different this time so now it's an entirely new path, flung up into the air aaaand another pit. The game expects me to be literally psychic in order to play properly. Or have the stages memorized. 3D sonic is a much simpler affair. No matter how much technical skill that's required the goal is in an obvious direction, and I can easily see everything that's coming up so that I may plan and react accordingly. 2D platfomers like mario are much slower and pretty much have you seeing the ground at all times and never have you going backwards, so it all works fine. 2D sonic always has this weird feeling that I *should* be headed towards the goal as fast as possible, but the game is constantly slowing you back down. Not due to difficulty. But just artificial speed traps that are either required (those sections where you run in place or wait on a moving platform), or unable to be seen until too late (sudden spikes/pits/walls). Nothing to do with skill. Just shit level design. Ultimately the way the levels are designed feel like it'd be better to play the game at a much slower pace, similar to mario. The problem is that the game won't even let you do that, as there's constant things like loops that require the high speed, but then punish you right after you start going fast (a loop followed by a wall/spikes/etc). Frustrating af. I can see how it'd be fun once you memorize everything, but before that?

[@caiosilva2167]

I hate trial and error gameplay, being punished with hazards i couldn't see coming, though i learned to take a more careful approach, poor enemy and hazard placement still is present, which is the reason the ring system exists though that is a bandaid solution, not to say all stages in the Genesis games are like that, but a few offenders stand out, like Oil Ocean and Metropolis Zone, the latter sometimes has you getting hit with the yellow launch pads throwing you at the mantis badnik, like, no matter the approach i *will* get hit here, to me replayability in the Genesis didn't exactly came from trial and error gameplay but rather the alternate paths i could take to finish the levels, when you play Green Hill for the first time you probably are going to take the lower paths but when you replay the game you will take a different approach

[@islandboy9381]

@@caiosilva2167 Sorry dude but trial and error gameplay is the name of the game when it comes to traditional platformers, even Mario (in his more linear incarnations that is), it's why the life system and the ring system for Sonic in particular exists in the first place. The more important point to focus on is if the trial and error is executed well enough; does the particular platformer make it rewarding enough for you to overcome the trial and learn from errors? If yes then it's a good platformer. Your complaint about poor placement is then a case where the trial feels unfair and thus not rewarding to overcome.

[@Lugbzurg]

When people come down on Sonic's gameplay like you've described, I tend to see strong parallels with the likes of Dark Souls and Devil May Cry of all things than other platformers. The intent to keep playing and getting yourself better, not just making your character more powerful or whatever, is the reason why. This is also the reason why modern critics never gel with such games. They have to play through new games as fast as possible once, review them, and move onto the next, very rarely ever having the time to replay anything. That kind of mindset and play environment kills much of the enjoyment you could have out of these kinds of games, and why they keep scoring so poorly, yet still tend to sell pretty well with hugely-dedicated fanbases.

[@GameboyFanatic]

See Gunvolt as well, the series is mainly Action Platformers, a bit similar to MegaMan, but you get ranked on each stage and eventually can blaze through levels fast. Castlevania and MegaMan are also similar, though slower with emphasis on going perfect. Some later MegaMan games do have high speed gameplay though, mainly the Inti Creates ones.

[@rodicamoraru3922]

I think DOOM should be put on that list

[@MinecraftSpongeT]

Except that those telegraph their dangers ahead of time, a big aspect of what makes them fair and rewarding to learn. Compare to an extreme example: IWBTG, the game is basically what this video and everyone else is clamoring the hidden brilliant game design of sonic: You're meant to go through trial and error, replay it and learn a bit more every time. But it's missing the proper signaling that would let a player react. Of course sonic is nowhere near that sadistic, but people are sweeping under the rug this extremely important aspect. By itself, being able to do things better and faster upon replaying is nothing remarkable, most games work like this as you learn how to play and most of them are also fun on the first run.

[@jacobmonks3722]

Even as a younger gamer who grew up with the Gamecube, I never had the modern approach to playing games. My family was relatively poor, so I really didn't have a choice but to replay the few games I had multiple times. As a result, I cut down my play time in Ocarina of Time from roughly 20 hours to less than 8, I learned how to finish Majora's Mask in a mere 3 cycles, I S-ranked every mission in Sonic Adventure 2 (and did all the Chao garden stuff), I got way better than most of my friends at Smash Bros Melee (not competitive level, but certainly good), and I beat Metroid Prime 100 percent in a mere 3 hours and 26 minutes. These accomplishments all feel so very rewarding because I took all the frustration that the games gave me, and turned it into a motivator. When I finally played the Classic Sonic games when I was 18 and could actually buy my own games, I felt so much at home, like the games were built for me before I was even born. I'm in the same boat that people a decade older than me are in. And that feels so weird because I never identified much with "millennials" and their problems or attitudes. I highly value replayability in my videogames, even the longer ones. I can replay Final Fantasy VI till the Chocobos come home, and still not be tired of it, because the gameplay is THAT good. But I can't see myself ever buying games like The Last of Us or TellTale's The Walking Dead because they just don't feel like they will last me very long. I'll likely play them once and then never touch them ever again. And that bums me out because from what people say, they are great games, they just have nothing else going for them after you play them once. I fear that once games go fully digital, companies focus more on one-and-done experiences, rather than pastimes that are meant to transcend generations. Rant over. Great video Josh, and I look forward to what retrospectives you'll be doing in the near future. Have you ever considered covering the Castlevania series or any Mega Man games? I think there's a lot there that you could talk about.

[@BATCHARRO]

You could argue replayability was one of the reasons Adventure, Adventure 2 and Heroes tried to give you a lot of "The Stage but as a different character"

[@theinktician]

For me it's kind of sad that a basic concept of enjoyment in any activity like this has to be explained in a video - that said, this is a great video. An incredible video. And while I can't help but feel bitter about basic game aspects not being understood anymore, I can appreciate that someone is trying to help the current game world understand it.

[@MerelyAFan]

The avenue of replay value is to me where the multiple characters of S3&K and Sonic Mania shines best. Even beyond the obvious math that 5 playable characters quintuples your likely amount of playthroughs, the differences such characters possess also lends itself to better fitting a preferred type of play. In Mania for example, if you want the speed that comes with skill mastery, both Sonic and Ray can get you through levels fast once you know their mechanics in and out. Tails and Knuckles allow for much more precise exploration at the cost of some potential for speedy playthroughs. Finally Mighty allows for a defensive option for players whose primary frustrations are enemies and traps that come too quick. No Sonic title will (or should) be long, but ones utilizing characters with unique abilities (and specifically not unique gameplay) create opportunities for players to perfect skills while still not forcing them into a specific box on how to enjoy them.

[@duffman18]

This is a good point. I remember back in the day when Sonic and Knuckles finally came out. I actually only played it a couple years after I'd got sonic 3 for Christmas, so I'd had years with Sonic 3 and as well as getting a whole new set of levels, playing the first 6 as Knuckles made it feel like a whole new game too, and you finally got to see what was in those secret areas behind smashable blocks that sonic and tails couldn't get through. And playing sonic 2 with knuckles was even more amazing. I don't know if I could adequately describe how fun and insane that was, to modern gamers, because modern games are always getting new DLC characters and fan mods. Back then it just didn't happen, not officially anyway, and even sonic modding didn't really begin properly until the 21st century. Sonic 2 with knuckles was genuinely mind blowing. It still kinda is, thinking about how they managed to program it to work. It was the same game but a new game at the same time, and it made it so fresh and new again. And yeah I love Ray in sonic mania. I find his flying mechanics a lot easier than Mario's in super mario world, and yeah once you've mastered them you can fly higher than tails ever could, get through levels much quicker than anyone else, and it just feels fantastic. I don't keep up with the speedrunning community of sonic mania but I've got to imagine they use Ray a lot. It's almost game breaking, if it weren't for the levels being designed so well around the capabilities of each character. Oh and Ray's super form with all the emeralds is insane. That's _definitely_ game breaking but in a good way.

[@smashmaster521]

When it comes to 2D Sonic, Knuckles is easily my favorite character to play as due to being a perfect fusion of Sonic and Tails in terms of gameplay.

[@premydaremy]

It's amazing how "Replay Value" is barely considered nowadays. I mean I've spent hundreds of hours playing the same Sonic games over and over, and Mario games like NSMB DS etc. But I beat Odyssey once, took me 40 hours and I had a blast, but I haven't gotten back to it since. A lot of the casual fans who like Forces seemed to like how easy it was to get into and beat, whereas someone like me wants Sonic to be challenging and doesn't mind a bit of a learning curve. Maybe there's just so many 20+ hour games now that everyone has forgotten about replaying games because there's always something else to play. Only now is the concept of trying a game for 5 hours and not beating it considered standard. Recently I beat Mega Man 11 on a low difficulty thinking I would go back and play it on a higher one, but since I beat it I haven't gotten around to it yet. I was SUPPOSED to initially play it on Normal, but I kept getting game over and I got frustrated lol. As a kid I would've just kept trying but the abundance of games to play and the hour requirements make it so much harder. I guess the industry changes and the culture changes with it lol.

[@RichardBlaziken]

Heh, difficulty spike. Nice. This is a great way to explain Sonic's fundamental design and why it is the way it is. Same as you, I started with Sonic 2, but didn't get to play Sonic 3 for many years and only earlier this year did I finally beat 3&K. I got pretty frustrated at times as the game went on, hitting speed traps and such, and I remember thinking "This just doesn't happen in Sonic 2!". Thing is... yes it does. Or it did, back when I was 5. I played Sonic 2 so many times over the years and all through my childhood to the point that I just know them in and out, whereas most of 3&K was pretty new to me. I'll definitely be revisiting it some time soon to see if I can do even better.

[@MarceloKatayama]

the thing is, Sonic 3 is WAAAY better designed than Sonic 2, I played them both back to back when I was 8 on my Sonic classic collection for DS, and Sonic 3 was consistently more fun than sonic 2, However, I believe most people like Sonic 2 more because of nostalgia, which is sad, because Sonic 3 deserves much more love than it gets

[@paperluigis2m371]

@@MarceloKatayama Sonic 3 is far more praised than 2 nowadays. I really enjoy Sonic 3K, but I think many people ignore some of its flaws, some of them being issues that Sonic 2 has.

[@lpfan4491]

i mean,yeah,sonic3 is not perfect(sandopolis just stinks). but it is still one of the best jump and runs of all time in my eyes. the only thing i like in sonic2 more are the specialstages and those are pretty trial and error in the og version of sonic2,the mobileremake made it more fun.

[@MarceloKatayama]

@@lpfan4491 I think people bash sandopolis way too much when they should be focusing on something else, marble garden, that zone was HORRIBLE, even worse than sandopolis IMO, But yeah, people (like myself) tend to overlook Sonic 3's flaws, the problem comes when people start giving Sonic 2 much more praise than it deserves, thus, creating a wave of overrated-ness that drives me insane, because, even as of today, I have more fun with Sonic 3 or even Sonic 1 than with Sonic 2

[@MarceloKatayama]

@@paperluigis2m371 I agree, its just that it irritates me how Sonic 3's flaws are much more apparent due to it being a more popular game, and people start praising Sonic 2 even though it isn't even a shadow of what Sonic 3 is

[@danielpagan2848]

As a 39 year old Sonic fan I almost shed a tear listening to you explaining away the criminally overlooked magic of not only classic Sonic games but many of the really good games of the 80's and early 90's.

[@danielcurtis8895]

This design philosophy is Sonic through and through, from the classics, to the adventures, to the boost games. Sonic has always been about mastery of movement. And with that movement mastery levels feel seamless. They’ll feel like you ‘actually’ have the reaction time of a supersonic hedgehog. I’m so glad that the community is starting to highlight this design philosophy. It’s something that I realized for some time now, but was too lazy to make a video to get my point across. Thank you for making this video! The magic of Sonic gameplay happens when it ‘clicks’, it just works. And that a Mairo designed platformer is not the only “correct” way to make a fun/rewarding game.

[@FletcherReedsRandomness]

Sonic, even with the later 3D games, is one of the only series which I find consistently replayable (except Unleashed, since the Werehog stages take a long time to finish). They're some of the easiest games for me to look at, think "why not", and just pop in and start playing. Even crap like 06 and Secret Rings have that factor going for it, even if I don't enjoy myself with those.

[@pix0218]

Don't think I didn't notice the transition to City Escape at 6:02 to match up with Endless Mine music. Great video, I've been playing Sonic since Sonic 2, and it's great to see people talk about the level design being more about rewarding players on multiple playthroughs. It's the main reason I enjoy replaying the games, the increase of skill I gained by playing though multiple times helps make replays quicker and help me to be more efficient with my speed

[@Yours2Keep138]

Great video! I'm so sick of the "Sonic was never good" argument. Those older games (and even many of the games from the last 20 years until now) do have a certain magic and charm about them that you nailed. It never had hit me until Sonic Mania that the really great thing about Sonic is revisiting those stages and eventually mastering them. Thank you for yet another thoughtful and well worded video!

[@bluedragon9925]

I'm actually kind of shocked that no one seems to give a damn about "replay value" anymore... Why even bother buying games at full price if you never plan on playing them again after you beat them the first time?

[@todesziege]

I think it has a lot to do with many new games honestly not being that fun to play; people put up with the gameplay for story, spectacles and rewards rather than playing for the fun of playing. And if it's like that, then why would anyone want to play again?

[@SeekerLancer]

It's because there's just so much media out there people just want to play a game once and be done so they can move on to the next thing. An unfortunate side-effect of having too much of a good thing is our multimedia has become increasingly disposable.

[@batfan1939]

For me Sonic games became fun when I stopped trying to get everything, and instead kept moving. Some of my favorite games are collect-a-thons, notably the DKC trilogy, both Banjo games, and DK64. SMW, as well. Games where you dig into every nook and cranny to gather everything. Because of this, there was nothing worse than slogging around through Sonic levels looking for all the powerups, or watching my ring count go from sixty- or seventy-something down to five. Or one. Once I realized you weren't supposed to spend most of your time exploring, that you were simply expected to sort of stumble on things along the various paths, the game became _much_ better! Played Sonic Mania to the point one of my friends set it as his personalized ringtone for when I call.

[@GeekCritique]

That's a great point, and I've noticed somewhat of an opposite effect, myself: Because of my tastes, I tend to enjoy platformers like Rayman Origins/Legends, or even Yoshi's Island, _much_ more when I make it a point to _not_ try to collect everything, and instead just focus on speeding through the level as fast as I can. These are games with a *ton* of secrets to uncover, and that's great for people who enjoy that kind of thing, but poking around every nook and cranny of a 2D stage goes against my tastes and gets tedious for me. I remember when Rayman Legends came out, I wasn't enjoying it much until I realized this, then I blazed through the whole game and had a blast.

[@TripleJump]

No, I get it. My favourite game is Sonic Unleashed for the Wii and, even though I've already 100%ed it, sometimes I'll just turn on my Wii U so I can rush through Eggmanland Day again. Because I know the level design by heart, it's personal and satisfying. It's why I love the game so much in a way that I never did when I first played it.

[@Gnidel]

I love Sonic Unwiished too! Daytime stages are so fun! I wish this game wouldn't be so forgotten because it shares a title, story and concept with a completely different game on stronger consoles.

[@jumponeverything]

I'm so glad that even though I was born in the 21st century I still grew up playing sonic 2 because it gave me the chance to appreciate classic games that are better when replayed!

[@ethancrow3351]

7:00 speaking of Metroid are u ever gonna do a complete critique of Samus Returns?

[@Voltricity435]

Yeah, he's gonna critique the handheld Metroid games once he gets a 3DS capture card

[@ethancrow3351]

Ahh that makes sense

[@Whatthetrash]

Asking the real questions. :)

[@noahcorleone1473]

Yeah I’m excited it’s personally my favorite Metroid game

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

@@Voltricity435 Could use someone else's footage.

[@aortaplatinum]

They're fun Real talk though, when Mania gets a sequel, it should have an option for a Freedom Planet 2 style camera where it zooms out based on your speed.

[@SomeSomeCruzz00]

That was a sonic cd thing first

[@aortaplatinum]

@@SomeSomeCruzz00 barely, the screen would just scroll a tiny bit further in the direction you were running, and only once you hit a certain speed. Ideally, the screen would always be zoomed super far out, like a 2D Mario game, N+, or even the background segments of Metallic Madness Zone in Sonic Mania.

[@DefinitiveDubs]

You really need to play Mega Man X, Josh. It has more in common with Sonic and DKC than you might realize. It's all about speed, and it's all about improvement. Also, I'm surprised you didn't bring up the irritating argument of "Durr, what's the point of getting more than one ring if that's all you need anyway?"

[@smashmaster521]

I'd personally recommend Mega Man Zero 3. It's right up there with Mega Man 2, Mega Man 3, Mega Man X, and Mega Man X4 as one of the best Mega Man games ever made.

[@duffman18]

@@smashmaster521 isn't mega man zero 3 a full blown metroidvania? Rather than the classic mega man x formula.

[@smashmaster521]

@@duffman18 You're thinking of Mega Man Zero 1 (and even that game is a Metroidvania in the loosest sense of the term). Mega Man Zero 3 plays very similar to a Mega Man X game, but it takes that formula and perfects it even further to create the best game in the entire Mega Man franchise. I've played it more than any other Mega Man game, and that number is only going to increase further when I get the Zero/ZX Legacy Collection for Switch once it's out.

[@duffman18]

@@smashmaster521 oh fair enough. I'll definitely have to check that out, I think I've played only a bit of the first mega man zero, and it took half an hour for the game to begin. If the 3rd one does away with all that and just has regular levels like a normal platformer I'll go play it for sure Is the zero/zx legacy collection a real thing that's coming out or just something you're hoping for? Cos damn, that'd be amazing if it's real. The perfect kinda thing for switch, and I've already got all the other mega man and x collections and played them to death so I wanna check out this lesser known stuff. Perhaps if the legacy collection sells well they'd made another ZX game like they've made a new classic series ones

[@smashmaster521]

@@duffman18 The Zero/ZX Legacy Collection is a real thing that was announced recently. It's set to release on January 21, 2020 for Switch, PS4, and Xbox One, and you better believe I'm getting it when it comes out. And trust me, you won't be disappointed with Mega Man Zero 3, especially if you enjoy playing as Zero in Mega Man X4. I've become so good at the game that I could get all the EX Skills if I wanted to.

[@0rnery0verwatch]

I honestly miss the era of games where you legitimately had to "git gud" to beat them. It made the entire experience all the more satisfying once you mastered the games, and made it so easy to want to go back and play them again... to sort of relish the skill that you'd developed the first time you beat it. I remember the first FPS games I played (goldeneye and perfect dark) and how difficult those games were, because if you died, you had to restart those missions from the very beginning. Fast forward to Halo CE's release on Xbox... and I remember thinking "this campaign has *checkpoints*?! This is so laughably easy... how could anyone take this seriously?" and I never had fun with any of the Halo campaigns because they never challenged me the way older games did.

[@ashleywhite8888]

"Maybe it's like backtracking in a Metroid game." And that's exactly what Sonic needs. The original Sonic games had much more of a cohesive setting. All the way up until Sonic Adventure 2. That kind of backtracking fits the Classic Sonic gameplay format so well, and the map-building in a Metroidvania fits Classic Sonic's narrative format so well. Because exploring to find new areas means exploring to find faster ways through the same areas. And in a single sitting, with this format, you'll *need* to go through the same areas. It's no wonder Sonic Chrono Adventure was my introduction back to the series after I'd fallen out of it thanks to modern game design sensibilities. It takes this *exact* approach, and gives you multiple reasons to not get bored with backtracking. That's not to say Chrono Adventure is perfect, I'd argue it's about on the same level as Sonic Advance 2, but rather than focusing on speed too much like Advance 2, the level design in Chrono Adventure doesn't support the "Getting faster" approach quite as much as the classics. Luckily, Chrono Adventure is open-source, and there are already efforts to implement things like widescreen and bugfixes. It's only a matter of time for someone to start on a level design patch. I might give it a shot but I'm not sure.

[@ashleywhite8888]

Got an alert saying that my comment got a heart from The Geek Critique Then checked and it wasn't there Did it get taken away because I was plugging my favorite fangame lmaoooooooo

[@hyperlink6547]

yes, but when you take a break from the game that slo means that your skills get rusty and while it doesnt last forever it lasts long enough to get discouraged. and often times you cant finish metroidvanias or the classics in one sitting unless your really good. and when you knwo your good at a level and still die on it its discouraging because you feel like you just got back to being a beginner when makes you want to stop playing. metroidvanias avoid that problem because the charcter gets stronger over time so while your skills as a player get better so do the characters making so that even after a long break you still feel that your at least semi skilled at the game and you aren't discouraged from playing. this approach makes playing in multiple sittings hard but playing in one singular sitting easier.

[@ashleywhite8888]

@@hyperlink6547 While you can get rusty, I think that takes a longer time than you'd think. I can go back to Super Metroid months after having stopped with it and after a few hours at most I'd be able to pick it back up because that kinda stuff sticks with you. Especially when it's Sonic's unique but simple set of mechanics.

[@hyperlink6547]

@@ashleywhite8888 while the mechanics and controls stick with you, the level design and stages might not as thats far more complicated. i understand it doesnt take long to pick it back up and play as well as you used to, but you really only need an hour at mst and around 30 minutes at the least to get discouraged from playing. this is the main reason i have yet to beat the entire sonic trilogy, while iv almost beaten sonic 3 and almost sonic 2, ive never fully beaten them because once i come back i feel like im playing as if its my first time and knowing it isnt just makes me not want to play them. of course this is just my opinion. i personally know almost the entire layout of super metroid and metroid fusion and have played them both half o death, but even then i occasionally had to take a few minutes to get reaquianted with my surroundings. now that part isnt as hard as its just one level and not an entire map so its not as bad as in some metroidvanias. like in the prime series for example. its incredibly easy to get lost and even on my third playthrough of primw 1 i have no idea of where anything is in relation to the map. with sonic games i just need to remember the stage order and the path i normally take but after say a few months or even a week, wich is my frequency of availability for the classics i can never be as good as i was when i played it everyday. green hill used to take me 1:30 seconds tops now it takes me 2:15. i feel bad because i know im better than that yet i still manage to die on the first boss or get hit by an enemy i know is there but simply forgot about.

[@ashleywhite8888]

@@hyperlink6547 "Green Hill used to take me 1:30" No, it used to take you 26 seconds. Although the rest of this comment is fair.

[@cameronminor8690]

I've been on a binge of Sonic content lately due to the positive reception Frontiers has gotten, which is how I stumbled upon your series of Critiques on the franchise. Your unique perspective on the franchise, given that you were practically there since the beginning, and the fact that you can articulate your thoughts so well, has produced a lot of good content: giving probably the most balanced review of Sonic CD I've seen on this website, your unique perspective on the Adventure-era games, the honest-to-god brilliant look at how 06 actually impacted the franchise beyond "LOL HEDGEHOG KISS HUMAN FEMALE EEEEEWWWWWW", the best reviews of the Advance trilogy I've ever seen on this website. But THIS. THIS is the video that actually made me a monthly Patreon contributor. You see, out of all games, the Genesis-era Sonics (3 and Knuckles especially) are the ones I've consistently replayed the most. More-so than the 2D Marios, even though I'm as big of a fan of Mario as I am of Sonic. Yet, until now, I could never articulate why. When you went through the example of replaying SMB 1-1, and how Sonic Team built their games around rewarding players for replaying their games, suddenly, it all *clicked*. In Sonic 2, for example, I'm able to get all 7 Emeralds before Aquatic Ruin now. My goal for my next revisit is to get them all in Emerald Hill. Meanwhile, in say Mario World, getting all 96 exits is the only attainable goal to reach for. You could get all 5 Dragon Coins in a level, but that'll just reward you with a 1-up. Mario games are more of a one-and-done sort of deal (still excellent games, don't get it twisted), at least for me, whereas I can replay the 2D Sonic games forever, because there's always new pathways to find, new Giant Rings, new CHARACTERS. That never came to me. Until now. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. Looking forward to watching your dissertation on other franchises (the DKC trilogy in particular). Keep on Critiquin', my dude.

[@Alienrun]

It's weird how much "ignoring the save file" can help an experience. It's how I came to like SMB1 and other games. Heck I didn't like IWBTG at first cause I got stuck a lot...till I decided to start the game over and *GASP* I got through the old levels FASTER and with much less frustration, I was better at the game cause the game was designed in a way that allowed me to. I can't really blame the new divide that's happened, we're so used to relying on save files...and for good reason! They help ensure your place is kept so you don't have to dedicate a bunch of time to a single sitting. (Yet ironically its when I finish a game in one sitting that I find the be most memerable haha) I could go on about what I like about this vid but you've heard it all from me before. My biggest critisism is that the music is a little too loud at times, if wasn't used to your voice I'd probably not be able to make out parts of it. Aside from that I fully support taking your twitter rambles to video form! (I can only hope this video didn't take too much of your time lol)

[@Kirbychu1]

I'm shocked to hear that a lot of people actually struggle with Mania. I suppose it makes sense if they don't know how to roll into a ball lol.

[@TheomanZero]

When my parents got me a Dreamcast and Sonic Adventure for Christmas, they didn't include a Memory Card because they didn't know what those were. So when I played Sonic Adventure at first, I always started from the beginning of Sonic's story and replayed all the early stages over and over again. I remember it felt like such a huge achievement when I finally beat the Egg Viper and saw Sonic's ending for the first time, and then I learned to breeze through Sonic's story so I could try out the other characters. I did eventually get a Memory Card, but I never realized until now that my parents may have inadvertently done me a huge favor.

[@TwilightWolf032]

That replayability philosophy is the entire point of the Dark Souls series - die once through an area that you struggled through, and you're sent back to the last Bonfire you rested at, but the next time you follow the same path, you'll most likely be doing better and better, until you get through the Silver Knights shooting arrows at you in Anor Londo in a single try. Same with Meat Boy. Maybe the devs behind Sonic should make death less time consuming, send you straight back into the start of the level without a transition screen, so you feel less punished for failing and more encouraged to keep trying.

[@Gnidel]

Those Mario-like "Try again" screens really annoyed me in Lost World and Forces. Just take me to the checkpoint! Or show a loading screen so I would have a reason to be patient... or install the game on SSD.

[@TheAzureVon]

That feel tho when you replay Dark Souls and know everything and feel like such a badass for taking things out first try.

[@TwilightWolf032]

@@TheAzureVon Except the Capra Demon boss fight. It's impossible to take that thing on the first try even if you know what to do. Those goddamn dogs! I thought the remastered version would have removed them to address the issue, but nope!

[@gooblop]

I think the easiest way to sum this up is that Sonic was built on the principles that Roguelikes still build on today. Roguelikes, by modern design, are games with random generation that don't last long, but once you beat them you try again, and you'll see new content dozens or even hundreds of runs. Some Roguelikes even "cheat" the process of the player improvement by unlocking new/better stuff for the player after runs, but Old Sonic games are certainly the exact same principle: The game doesn't have to be long if the reward of replaying the game and being better and faster each time keeps it lasting a long time. I've got hundreds of hours in The Binding of Isaac, and that's a game where you can beat your first run in far under an hour even taking your time. You get better over time, and the game is betting on this, it unlocks PERMANENT DIFFICULTY BOOSTS as a part of it's progression system. Nobody beats Mom the first time and thinks the game is "over now", the game gives you an unlock and tells you to try again. You unlock new items to find, fresh takes on zones (for example replacing the basement with a burning basement level), more enemies, and it helps keep the game fresh. Again, I'd repeat that the easiest way to sum it up is that old Sonic games were built off of the principles modern Roguelikes use. It doesn't give you more unlocks over time, the "unlock" is the player's skill.

[@Brione30]

I’ve been trying to get into Sonic Mania for months, but could never get a handle on the gameplay. I’m going to try your strategy, and I hope you’re right. Edit: You’re right! Thank you so much!

[@glowjoe09]

The best example of “more replays the faster you are at beating the level” is surprisingly, marble zone. Like when you realize the blocks above the waiting-floating block sections are just close enough to jump consecutively

[@StardustCarbunkle]

I can appreciate this channel not just for the quality content but because it doesn't just play devil's advocate. Analyzing both sides of an argument in one cohesive package is rare these days when people hide behind one-sided opinions. Good stuff as always!

[@shadowdeku6926]

This video is definitely aimed at me. My main criticism of classic Sonic is that its design elements clash with each other. However, I can appreciate that the series is from another time, created with certain limitations in mind, and catering to what gamers at the time wanted. This is something I've already learned from your previous videos, though this video explained it better. While I can appreciate this perspective and concede that flaws from my perspective are strengths to you, I don't agree that memorization-based trial-and-error is good game design. Yes, placing alternate paths and expecting the player to master the physics through repetition is fine, even great game design... you've convinced me. But the unfair hazard placement, insta-death holes and spikes, and obstacles that serve as nothing more than an annoyance for first-time players are all examples of poor game design, and the first few Sonic games are full of these things. Basically, rewarding skill through replays = good. Not my cup of tea, but fine. Rewarding (or worse, expecting) memorization through replays = bad design. Mario had the former, but Sonic amplified it. Awesome. But Mario didn't rely on the latter, and Classic Sonic absolutely does. The first Sonic game is also full of bland stop-and-go platforming segments which are just a terrible fit for the game's strengths, but that's another topic. However, Sonic Mania relies very little on memorization. I mentioned in a previous video that your content pushed me to find the fun in Sonic Mania. I orginially considered it to be fairly mediocre, not much better than the previous games. On a dozen replays, I now have great fun playing it. Again, not my preferred design philosophy, but I at least felt the magic Sonic fans always talked about. My appreciation for the older titles has also grown, but as I said previously, they have design elements that I simply can't see as good in any light. I could go on and on, I love your content and I always feel like I learn something from your videos. I grew up with Mario and Donkey Kong Country, so my idea of good platform design has always been very different from what Sonic offers (I'm sure you can understand what I mean without a long explanation). It's why a game like Celeste is the ultimate platformer for me.

[@SeekerLancer]

"I don't agree that memorization-based trial-and-error is good game design." It's still a very common element in many excellent games though. The real issue is that punishment for failing in older games is more severe. Trial and error is certainly a huge part of the Souls games for example, but failure is expected and accounted for in those games' design. Old arcade influenced games were crueler and would throw you back to the starting level and make you do it all over again. Of course there were level selects to mitigate that but those are still annoying, time-wasting hoops to jump through in order to continue. You can't just pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again at the thing you failed immediately.

[@UbikDedalus]

Thank you for getting me into 2D Sonic. I bought Sonic Mania about a month ago and have been playing it constantly, always learning something new and always hoping to get better at it - your videos, I'd say, played a critical role in helping me understand what really makes a Sonic game and a game in general. Thank you so much for everything you do! Edit: grammar

[@theinktician]

This is wholesome

[@Agent-yw1kj]

I'm sorry you were introduced to sonic with one of the worst sonic games ever

[@UbikDedalus]

@@Agent-yw1kj you mean Sonic Mania? Don't worry, my actual introduction was the 2013 Christian Whitehead remaster of Sonic 2. What do you reckon are "the best" Sonic games?

[@Agent-yw1kj]

@@UbikDedalus Almost anything to 1991 to 2010 with some years excluded (2006,1996...)

[@UbikDedalus]

@@Agent-yw1kj hate to bother you, but why do you think Mania was bad? I really enjoyed it and actually still do

[@brinstarmedia1411]

Replay-ability is what makes the classics so fun to go back to after so many years.

[@aurnknight2813]

Its been a while Nice to see you back to youtube. Your videos are all ways well argueed

[@guilhermearaujo906]

except the heroes one

[@aurnknight2813]

@@guilhermearaujo906 never mind that's a good vedio

[@guilhermearaujo906]

@@aurnknight2813 so you agree his opinion about sonic heroes sucks dont you?

[@spartanq7781]

@@guilhermearaujo906 No that was a well argued one.

[@aurnknight2813]

@@guilhermearaujo906 Not really I rewatched the video And i dissagree

[@Millweed]

Maintaining speed in sonic games is the same as maintaining P Speed in SMB3. You don't have to do it but if you can, you are the man. The thing is that is much easier to get top speed in Sonic so it's very tempting while in SMB you have to be borderline speedrunning.

[@islandboy9381]

Anyone else also noticed that the ranking system introduced in Sonic Adventure 2 (the system that incentivizes replayability by making you want to improve your skill and get better at levels to get the higherst rank) became more and more lenient/casual friendly in the modern era that it has become kind of trivial to still have?

[@brodudeofficial8644]

I do get your point. But with that being said I believe games should have replay value, but I believe that they should be fun the first playthrough as well. And I just dont think sonic pulls me in at a first playthrough.

[@magma1264]

Just because Sonic didn't pull you in on first playthrough doesn't mean it didn't for others

[@globalistgamer6418]

Practically speaking, it seems like there is a trade-off here. No platformer that is as easy to consume as Mario but has the replay value of Sonic exists, and I'm very skeptical whether it ever could. For example, a simplistic and linear running speed that is very easy to understand immediately might make Sonic "more fun" on a first playthrough, as might highly tutorialised level design. But such mechanics would lower the skill cap for subsequent runs, and leave levels padded with single-purpose patches of terrain that aren't interesting to replay. Existing games that go further in optimising design for a single, highly-paced playthough, e.g. Portal tend to have extremely low replay value. Conversely, where Sonic Team pursued the focus on mastery even further in NiGHTS into Dreams, the level design becomes almost incomprehensible as single serving content.

[@jacobmonks3722]

@@globalistgamer6418 I'm gonna disagree with you on Portal. Yes, it's a puzzle game, but for me the reward isn't so much in solving the puzzles, but HOW you managed to solve them. Almost all of them have multiple solutions, so its replay value comes from testing those boundaries and seeing what else is possible.

[@tonyt1616]

“FUN IS INFINITE.” Now this phrase makes sense.

[@sprouting_lady]

I think you're spot on about replayability being where Sonic shines, but I've gotta be honest: I think you dropped the ball on the "first critics thought it was too easy, now they say it's too hard!" aspect at 5:15. They aren't mutually exclusive criticisms. A game can be frustrating, and easy at the same time. That's actually usually the criticism I've heard most commonly about Sonic games: that they're easy to actually beat, but they are at the same time frustrating and just plain not fun to try to breeze through until you learn the levels. It's not exactly *hard* to muddle your way through a Sonic stage blind, it's just not very fun to do so and can get frustrating if you're in the "WANNA GO FAST!" mindset. Personally I enjoy the games a lot because of the replayability factor, but I do understand where people who don't like them are coming from. The core game design for Sonic just doesn't seem to have been quite as evergreen as other platformers like DKC or Mario.

[@quibquiberton4184]

Mario & DKC are much easier for beginners to pick up. Easy to learn, hard to master. Sonic HATES beginners. It's much more difficult to pick up and play.

[@TyRiders2]

@@quibquiberton4184 Not really tho

[@OpXarxa]

On a theoretical level, I understand this principle. I was also raised in the arcade era, and even if I needed a modern comparison... I'd take mario odyssey, how at the start of the game your movement is slow and clunky, but as you master the gameplay, you can speedrun just to move around and have a lot of fun with it as you master movement itself. The difference in early and late game gameplay felt mostly like this, even if the context is different. However, there was something else to my difficulty enjoying sonic games. You compared it to an evolution of how in SMB, you got better and faster at clearing the levels. However, SMB had very precise gameplay that also rewarded patience whenever you were struggling, and as long as I didn't stick to the right edge of the screen, I could get through with skill rather than memorizing the level as I could react to danger before it hit. With classic sonic, however... unless you are playing "fast" and with a proper grasp in the flow, the gameplay feels clunky and imprecise. It's great fun to use the physics to control your bullet-like jumps and bounces, but actual accurate platforming on any part of the level you aren't yet good enough to flash through? not quite. And because of the lack of reasonable reaction time, actually learning the levels(through sheer replayability or not) felt like a necessary requisite. Unlike mario, it's not that replaying until you learned the level by heart made you get better and faster at the game; it was actually a necessary step to beating it. Perhaps I'm making a big misunderstanding here, but retrying until learning the level as an entry fee to play the game felt like a core design of classic sonic whenever I tried it... And it was not fun. Struggling through the difficult bits, but ultimately using precise gameplay to patiently get over it, is essentially fun. Then you die, because it's hard, and have to redo the level... and as you keep doing that you grow confident and can do it faster and better, until you reach wherever you died or yous truggle with, then back to being careful. And if you beat the game and had fun? since it's skill and not memory that you're relying on, you can simply replay anytime for the heck of it, and that getting better by learning the game just comes naturally as a secondary reward, but as the main focus? doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Let me use a different example than mario. Megaman. Megaman X1 and X4 are one of my favorite games, I replayed them to death, back in the day I could dash through the levels with perfect flow because I just knew them by heart. That was fun. But I also had a lot of fun struggling through those games early on, wich is why I wanted to replay them in the first place. The other good games in that series? I never replayed them enough to learn the levels, but I still enjoyed playing through them on occasion. I didn't have that perfect flow, I wasn't nearly as fast at clearing them, but it was still great fun. That speed at 1 and 4 that came from sheer repetition was just the cherry on top. To me, trying to beat a sonic game for the first time doesn't feel fun at all. Blazing through the early levels that I'd gone through several times after game overs actually got fun once I did it enough to confidently run forward with a rough idea of where I needed to watch out for traps... but whenever I made a mistake due to remembering badly and rna straight into a trap, and whenever I did reach whatever furthest point I had gotten to and immediately died to some bullshit, that wasn't fun. And it's not like I could take it more carefully and try harder, because trying to be careful actively made the game worse. This, to me, has always been the real problem with sonic games.

[@ChaddyFantome]

I was actually preparing to make a video tackling this very topic. We currently live in an era where people seem to play single games to say they beat them as opposed to the viscera of playing them well. It's a shame. Sonic 2 was also my first Sonic game, and it was one of my favorite games of all time, playing it on Genesis. The phenomena you described made me almost cry with how much it resonated with me. I still remember dying repeatedly in Chemical Plant Zone act 2 over and over and over when I was a kid. But by the time I got the Mega Collection on PS2 a few years later, I shocked myself with how almost instinctively, I was reacting to level design elements without even thinking about it and trivializing obstacles that gave me grief. I had come to understand finer nuances of the gameplay that I otherwise never would have. Chemical Plant has been my favorite Zone in Sonic 2 and one of my all time favorite levels in Sonic period on that alone ever since. The sense of pride I felt in recognizing this shift in my abilities was one of the most exhilarating things I felt in a game when I was young, and its something I would never give up for the world. ...Okay, maybe not litterally, but you get the idea. Excellent video!

[@drewirons2646]

"Doing it again, but better" -- this is EXACTLY what I love about retro games. Once you have a game like a challenging platformer figured out and memorized, it is a ton of fun to run through. I played through Legend of the Mystical Ninja on SNES with save states on the SNES Classic Edition until I could finish it to get over the learning curve. Once I had practiced all the hard parts, I popped the cartridge in my SNES and it became an absolute joy to play. I also think this is part of what makes Tetris 99 so addictive :)

[@kargaroc386]

Why was replayability such a big thing back then, and why was Sonic specifically designed around it? Because games were largely for children back then, and games were expensive and children didn't have much disposable income. So they simply could not accumulate very many games. As a result, they'd tend to play the games that they *did* have over and over. This is what Sonic was designed for, as described in the video. Problem? Those children grew up and got incomes. I'm sure we've all heard of "that gamer", the one who has so many games that they'd die of old age before they finish them all, let alone replay them. Needless to say, this fundamentally breaks Sonic's core game design. Sonic as a concept was so heavily overspecialized, that when the floor inevitably dropped out from underneath, pivoting was like moving mountains, and Sonic games struggle with this to this day.

[@GameplayandTalk]

Excellent topic. I am very adamant about getting better through repeated plays, with the beneficial side effect of your enjoyment increasing as your skill improves. That's of course only a part of traditional "replay value", but it is a significant part and something that's missing from some modern games today.

[@cerealbeforemilk3566]

After this video I want to go back to mania and play it again . I didn't like my first playthrough but maybe this time it will be better. I played the classic games and loved them so there is always hope for mania. And also because I wanna hear that soundtrack again.

[@Freezer94]

This video should be mandatory watching before you say Sonic Superstars doesn't let you go fast.

[@GeekCritique]

We are absolutely proving that notion is wrong.

[@tearlach47]

If any of you have ever heard of or played Sonic Robo Blast 2, a 3D fan game that's been in development for over 20 years, you can probably see how this same philosophy is carried over to that game, just as it has been with the official 2D games. I think this really shows how SRB2 has come closer, than any official 3D Sonic game, to applying the 2D formula in 3D. My first time playing through SRB2, I went with Sonic because of course I did. He was the hard mode, I came to find out. I struggled through the game trying to get used to its unique handling, but I ended up giving up at the sheer difficulty of trying to get through the last zone with only 3 lives since I couldn't keep my life count up the entire way through. So, I played through it with Tails, the easy mode, and I got through it all the way. Next, Knuckles was the medium difficulty. Done. By the time I came back to Sonic, I had honed my skills and was able to beat the game with all 7 chaos emeralds (The special stages also get frustratingly difficult toward the end). Most people who I've seen play SRB2, say, for a YT series, become very frustrated at the game their first time playing for multiple reasons, just as those who have become frustrated trying to get into a 2D Sonic game, but just can't. Thinking about it, Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2, which were developed by Sega and Amusement Vision, also maybe share some qualities of this game design as the classic Sonic games.

[@AniGaAG]

Roll. ... ... ... No, really. It drives me insane how no one ever rolls or Spin Dashes. Do it. It's the whole trick. xD

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

At what speed should you roll around though?

[@johnpolishimpossible2say191]

Good points. But the judgement has never been "too hard", it's that the flow of the game is disruptive given the speed mechanic and placement of traps and enemies. Thought this as a kid too.

[@aidankeogh9994]

This was a really eye-opening video for me, thanks for making it! Genuinely answered some questions I've had for over a decade, as I've just never been able to get a grasp on the classics. As someone who had just started to play games around the time when SA2 came out, I had a lot of games with more modern design philosophies to sink my teeth into. And then, I had the Sonic Mega Collection on the PS2. Even when I was little, I'd heard about what fantastic, tight games the classic Sonic games were, so I tried the original three. And I _despised them._ But I'd still try my damnedest to find what people enjoyed so much about them. I'd try them again and again and again, not wanting to just give up on games that so many people loved for reasons I wanted _so badly_ to understand. Even as I raged at never being able to get past Marble Zone in Sonic 1, or the first act of Marble Garden Zone in Sonic 3, I didn't _want_ to hate these games. I went back in to keep playing them to try and like them, even though I knew deep down that I was almost certainly going to leave even more embittered to them. And I never stopped hating them. That's been my experience with the classic games pretty much my whole life, and its probably been further cemented by the fact I've been a huge fan of modern Sonic. Sonic Unleashed, Colours, Generations, and most notably the Rush games on the DS- Rush Adventure is genuienly one of my all-time favorite games, and easily my favourite Sonic game. The design philosophies of these games are just different to those which I grew up with. Knowing that, and at least being able to understand why people enjoy these games that personally make me want to rip my hair out, now I _can_ appreciate this games. I still hate them with every fibre of my being. But I now understand why people like them. Again, thanks for making this video!

[@jdub2003]

The notable thing is that much of the Sonic games you listed are short and had a lot of replayability as well, although not to the same degree as the Classic era games. The newer games are just designed to be more appealing to newcomers, and that is not inherently an issue. It’s a great thing, as more people can enjoy the games. I think the problem for those in a similar position like yours is that the momentum mechanics of classic era Sonic games may be more difficult to grasp then boosting for the same speed. And even though I greatly enjoy the Classics, I can see that a lot of them have clear rough spots like crush deaths and the limited visibility, for example. But hey, the Classic trilogy, CD, and Mania aren’t for everyone, and that’s perfectly okay. And it’s great the more modern Sonic games bring you the same level of enjoyment that the Classics bring for people like myself.

[@SeekerLancer]

I like this comment, it's given me some insight on why there's such a divide between classic and modern Sonic fans.

[@RaoulWB]

It's amazing how you managed to break down in just a few minutes what makes Sonic gameplay so iconic and a thing people often either love or hate

[@samuraikarasu]

Psh, what do you know about Metroid? You haven't even played it for 60 years like I have! All jokes aside, your enthusiasm for the Blue Blur is always something to behold. You don't defend it in some sycophantic way. You address this series, warts and all, and explain exactly why it holds up the way it does and what it is you see in it. I'll always enjoy that.

[@shadowpheonix1751]

I thought celeste had pretty good replay value tbh, all of Madeline’s different tricks that she can pull off allow for a myriad of speedrunning opportunities

[@jacobmonks3722]

Yeah Celeste is a masterpiece. Tons of replay value and really engaging story.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

Agree

[@nstar674]

When people say classic Sonic is about going fast I laugh. Going fast is one of many rewards in Sonic, not the focus. Until boost formula Sonic games were about skill mastery, not speed and spectacle.

[@Otome_chan311]

Sonic 2D isn't about speed or skill, it's about memorization. Sonic 3D (adventure 1+2) are about skill.

[@jacobmonks3722]

@@Otome_chan311 2D Sonic is also about skill. You don't need to memorize the stage layouts to be able to beat it, or to have a good time. The reason Sonic Mania is so beloved is because the game plays identically to those classics, which Sonic fans had played likely dozens of times. The skills they learned playing those old games transferred directly to Mania. Even though the stage layouts were brand new, and there was no possible way to know what was coming, classic fans were still able to beat them and love them. Why? Because they are good at playing 2D Sonic games, ie "skilled." Ironically, Sonic Adventure 2 IS about memorization. Memorizing the correct path to take in each stage to maximize points so that you get that A rank in the end. In Sonic Adventure 2, there is an objectively correct way to play the stages if you want to get A ranks. Now I'm not saying it doesn't take skill, because it does. Even after memorizing the layouts and paths, you still need to be skilled enough to execute that perfect run. But the classic games don't require that first step, not even Adventure 1 does. Adventure 1 is a very easy game even if you have never seen any of the stages before. The controls just make Sonic break every stage into pieces. While there is a lot of fun to be had in doing that (take it from me, I have played Sonic's and Tails' stages dozens of times), it's not difficult in the slightest. Your skill is more useful in finding secrets and alternate pathways. But when it comes to the actual platforming? Sonic Adventure is one of the easiest Sonic games I've played.

[@Otome_chan311]

@@jacobmonks3722 I'd agree that 2d sonic is about skill if it weren't for the horrid stage layouts and very zoomed in camera that prevents you from seeing anything. Instead you just have to memorize where things are at, otherwise there's just constant halts to the flow. And there's no way to predict them since you literally can't see them. The sonic adventure games don't have this problem as you can always clearly see what's coming up.

[@potatocouch3709]

This is actually why I love playing Ultrakill so much, getting better and better at a level until I can finally P Rank it is infinitely fun, and the game rewards you for it! Having incentives to get good beyond your own personal enjoyment, in Ultrakill's case it's additional content, is a great way to ensure that people play and replay your game.

[@mighyguy55]

This is why even though I picked up super metroid like 5 years ago I’ve played through it dozens of times by now. The replay value is so extremely high

[@expithesocfurry4099]

I've been replaying the classic Sonic titles since I was 10 years old and I never thought about any of this.

[@rev.joelanderson5342]

The speed in sonic wouldn't be fun without the risk involved.

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

I would say this applies even to the modern games. Just look at the ranking system in Adventure 2 onwards. You're not gonna get an A your first time. I really don't understand "certain internet personalities" when they claim the games are "about going fast" and then just hold right and expect NOT to run into stuff. If can't control the speed of your car in a racing game, then slow down. The same applies here.

[@hiiambarney4489]

Actually nice observation. A good reason why the first Sonic feels so bad to play past Green Hill Zone is that Director Yuji Naka (who himself thought of this concept of getting through a stage as fast as you can because you replay it more often, so rewarding stage mastery is key) only saw over Green Hill Stage. He took much closer looks at the games Sonic 2 and 3.

[@SwedenTheHedgehog]

I’m not gonna say you’re entirely wrong; you are not because I also don’t think that the main point of the early Sonic games were to “go fast” (even though the games were kind of marketed that way). But for me, who happen to be a much bigger fan of the 3D Sonic games than of the 2D games (yes, even Mania), the issue was still always that even though you speed is a reward: it is not necessarily a reward for being GOOD, it is a reward for remembering the specific level well. Sure I could go slow-to-medium speed through a Zone in Sonic 2, but to go fast the next time I’d still have to memorize it for next time, lest I’ll run into the same trap again. I’m not saying that it’s inherently bad design; but like some other comment mentioned it probably garners much more to that peeve of “overcoming arbitrary obstacles” that speed-runners tend to do, and in the end they master it. But for someone who isn’t there to master a game, but likes reaction-based platforming much more; I subjectively don’t think that this design-philosophy is very good (even though I played the games in the late 90s for the first time).

[@CleaveTheDragon]

You gloss over it very quickly, but the ring system is half of the reason a lot of people can't get into sonic. When you combine that with the emphasis on speed (or momentum or whatever buzzword is popular with folks), it has a tendency to condition players a to think of a game a certain way. You can run down hills and keep hitting spikes and robots, but when all you have to do is grab a ring, you aren't really being taught to hold down or avoid them. This reduces what would be cheap deaths into frequent annoyances. People typically don't like either, but the former is going to get across the message more clearly: learn this level layout, or you won't reach the end. The reason people don't voice these criticisms with other old school games that you cite is because getting better is extrinsically linked to progress; You can't get past a boss until you learn their pattern enough to hit them more than they hit you, You can't reach the boss until you learn the stage enough to avoid getting hit 3 times, etc. That's a lot easier to grasp and get on board with than seeing an arbitrary time record go down on replays, which is an intrinsic award that only a certain type of player will value. But here's a thing: people replay games that they like. Getting faster/better comes with replayability naturally, sure, but if your first playthrough isn't fun, why would you care as much about the 2nd?

[@TheEddieJ1984]

As someone who's 34, I could care less what modern critics, or today's young people think of Sonic or really any games I enjoyed. All I know is I replay sonic 2 more than most games the past 2 gens that I have beaten.

[@Zeburaman2005]

Amen, brother! The funniest part in "modern criticism" always is to claim something old is bad, because it doesn't adhere to standards created some 20 odd years after its release. And that's always good for a laugh from people who cry for super easy difficulty modes in games that are renowned for brutalising their fan base. But hey, guess none of us old farts actually finished Zelda 1 without a guide back then, 'cause "that random guy on such and such YT channel said so, so it must be true, bruh!" Eh, I guess too many choices coupled with too much accessibility resulted in dulling the younger generations' sense of appreciation for things. Damn, I'm starting to ramble like my grandpa...

[@xavierreallyplaysgames]

You are totally 100% correct. I’ve been trying to get explain this to people for years. Tons of older games like this thrived on the idea of replay value, and in my opinion very few modern games have this feel. Dark Souls comes to mind as a good example. That game as a ton of replay value and you can beat it in tons of different ways. This idea that gamers just wanna be beat the game once and be done with it has always frustrated me, and games that don’t respect the idea that I may want to just replay it and get to each gameplay section as fast as possible are equally as frustrating. This is why I’m not a fan of too many QTE sections, forced walking sections, or unskippable cutscenes. To me, games should really be games, first and foremost. With ANY other type of games, you replay it with the mindset of “I want to do better this time.” I mean, hell, push yourself to the limit. How good can you really be at the game? Lets bring this thinking back fellow gamers.

[@eMorphized]

That moment when the clip of the spike pit showed up right when you said "spike" is so satisfying.

[@UubTay]

Good take, but reducing the point of "running into nigh unavoidable obstacles at high speed is not fun" to "Sonic is too hard" towards the end of the video felt wrong. I think people still think of the old Sonic games as relatively easy, like the critics in the past, but simply that it is tedious alongside being relatively easy.

[@b.n.a546]

Now that it's been out for over a year and a half, I would love to see a geek critique on Celeste.

[@Pride_1]

I still don’t think it’s worth it to waste time playing a game that isn’t fun now in the hopes that it will be fun later, especially since I can get challenges that are fun the first time through out of games like Celeste

[@vyperii]

I think you've described it perfectly. To this day, I can still play Sonic, Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 and Knuckles on either my Megadrive or Saturn (via Sonic Jam), and go through each without fret. I played them over and over. Sometimes, I would put the cheats in for Sonic 2 and just explore the levels as Supersonic, sometimes I'd be collecting Emeralds over and over, just to make sure all the save slots on not only Sonic 3, but also Sonic 3 and Knuckles were full (and I did this on both the MD and Saturn versions). Heck, I replayed Sonic 1 over and over on Sonic Jam just so I could do it with the addition of the Spindash. Each level in these games was an adventure in itself- a path through an almost believable area where it felt like you were pushing not just through a level, but through an actual place- and these places had hazards that you simply had to learn how to avoid, or take advantage of. As others have commented, you are rewarded with speed for using the momentum of Sonic's movement. He has weight (something Sega were always good at giving their characters- compare the feel of Streets of Rage to Final Fight and you'll see what I mean), and in some ways, you had to feel your way through the zones. The reward comes from having lightning fast-reactions to the inevitable traps that you know are ahead, and even to this day, more than 25 years on, that reward is amazing!

[@BensOnTheRadio]

I just can’t comprehend paying $60 for a game to play it once and be done with it!

[@redhotsonic]

You know what the other issue is? And it's something I'm guilty of. These days, everyone wants to stream these type of games to their viewers. If it's their first time playing and they keep dying, they're not going to start over like we did back in the day. And rightly so, because their viewers aren't going to want to watch them start over and over. And because of that, the game is now dubbed as "hard". Sure, they can practice beforehand and then stream it, but then all of the element of surprises disappear and then the stream becomes... boring. But I digress, this was a very good video with a lot of interesting points, good job!

[@Darthlucy1]

Okay, so I have to say this: I think Josh actually made a post on the General Sonic thread over on TV Tropes, where we were talking about this exact same thing. I even bring up Exo talking about the “Sega Learning Curve” where Sega games tend to beat you over and over and over again until you learn from your past mistakes until you pass those challenges with flying colors. It felt very surreal to have one of my favorite content creators make a post on a thread that I frequent.

[@stevensteier5914]

First off it's great too see you back and I hope you keep up with these smaller video essay type videos, I think their a great fit for the channel in between seasons, but I have two things I think you neglected to point out. The first is that just because a game doesn't have an arcade sensibility and is built with a first playthrough in mind doesn't mean that it discourages replayability. I would argue that games with multiple difficulty modes (which were mostly standard by 1991) encourage replay ability by letting players have a comfortable first playthrough and try something harder later on. Now whether or not games should have all of the difficulties unlocked from the start, or require you to beat the game first is a whole other conversation. The second point I wanna make (and I'm kinda surprised you didn't bring this up) is that sonic for the most part has already solved this problem. What I mean by this is what are the 3 most popular 3d sonic games? Well I would say sonic adventure 1, 2 and sonic generations (You could argue other examples, but that's besides the point) Now one of the main reasons why those games are the most popular 3d sonic games, is because they feature longer extremely complex levels that encourage replayability. And that to me is the biggest strength of the 3d sonic games, is that rather focusing on replaying the whole game, you can turn on the game, play through 2 or 3 levels, and get roughly the same experience

[@stevensteier5914]

Side note this is probably the reason why as time goes on sonic unleashed becomes more popular, and sonic colors (at least the wii version) is becoming less popular, because despite all of the faults of the werehog, the expensive, unique, set piece focused daytime levels of sonic unleashed, have more replay value for most people then the more constant but cookie cutter levels of sonic colors (wii version)

[@diegog1853]

I'm kind of ashamed to admit it, but i'm one of those player that doesn't appreciate replay value as much anymore. In the exact moment i beat a game for the first time, i just want to move on to another game. I believe that this change in focus in the industry is partially explained with people having a lot more games to play now. In my childhood i was used to having 5 to 10 games through the whole lifespan of the console. Now i have literally hundreds of games to play so many that i have to consciously keep track of what i'm playing and what i'll play next. I only reserve repeated paythroughs to old school nostalgic games and some special exceptions like contra, that mostly forces you to get better by repeating the same tasks. But also, i would offer the counterargument that a game should have an excellent first experience regardless if it is building to have greater replay value or not. Over the top action games like bayonetta are a good example of this. Developers from platinum games said multiple times that accesibility is a key feature of their hard to master games and that a first playthrough experience should be excellent for all skill levels. So even if most platinum games are designed with mastery through several playthroughs in mind (the director of wonderfull 101 even said that the first playthrough could be consider the tutorial), the majority of people choose to beat them just that one time and love them anyways, i certainly played through each bayonetta just once without caring for the deeper stuff and i still love those games to death. I think that a lot of sonic games tend to fall flat on this aspect, at least for a bigger amount of players and critics. The first time tends to be the most painful or least enjoyable and thats where you get the common complaint that it punishes you for going fast etc. I don't know if there is a solution for that or if it should be solved in the first place, but i do think that its at the very least a disadvantage of classic sonic, that actually i think lots of 3D sonic do a better job of having an enjoyable first playthrough, even if they lack in having depth sometimes.

[@Alienrun]

In regards to your last 2 paragraphs (I think) my solution to this WAY back when I was getting back into sonic was to purposefully go through the games SLOWLY while exploring, and only when I was confident enough, try to go through the levels fast! I know that sounds REALLY weird but it works really freaking well! It's part of why Sonic CD was my favorite sonic game for a long time till eventually I found myself enjoying Sonic 3 more and now Mania!

[@diegog1853]

@@Alienrun interesting, so your first playthrough is kind of an exploration of the levels. So maybe knuckles or tails are better options to start with? To clarify, i don't actually hate sonic or anything hehe, i played through all the classics all the way to mania. But just one time and i found them kind of meh... Of course i understand the concept of enjoying them more with more and more playthroughs, but that makes it kind of a leap of faith, to continue playing and playing a game in the hopes that you will eventually really love it. Your solution is kind of interesting though, just kind of unintuitive haha

[@SeekerLancer]

It's the sad truth. There's just too many games out there and too much media in general. Our multimedia has sadly become disposable. I wonder what games we'll be talking about 20 years from now and if anything will be able to stand the test of time like classic games have.

[@mechajay3358]

I've been wanting forever to some to explain why the gameplay for Sonic's levels was revolutionary forts time.

[@filipisotter5114]

I really think replay value is one of the most important things a game can have. Just look at my sonic mania playtime. Over 200 hours of me just playing the game over and over because of how enjoyable it was to improve and go.... well..... fast. Speed should be a reward for doing really good in sonic games. Not a given mechanic

[@Darthlucy1]

Incidentally, I think there is a tell when someone who has grown up with the classics vs. someone who started with SA2: namely, that they may not fully know how to maneuver their way through the level design of the classics because the classics (and SA1 to an extent) were built around maintaining momentum, not “gotta go fast”. Examples: some people have difficulty with the slopes, the aforementioned smacking into enemies while trying to speed your way through, or even, I kid you not, not knowing how to spin dash.

[@marythumarim9114]

Dear: TGC I just wanted to say thank you, you have made a Sonic fan of me

[@Foxxy999]

It's funny because I pretty much unintentionally did exactly that with Sonic Mania - just kept starting over instead of picking up where I hit the wall. Guess 28 years of Sonic 2 rubbed off!

[@alexnurse3498]

Excellent video. You managed to capture the essence of what it takes to "get gud" and stated why it was so satisfying to play old school games.

[@LiveFromTheAsylum]

I've admittedly never gotten into 2D Sonic, and I've always struggled with why. I mean, I know why I didn't get into the first game as a kid, but that was because Marble Zone is more than a bit shit. These days, it's a trickier issue for me to find an answer for. I don't mind having to replay early parts of a game, considering I enjoy things like old-school Castlevania games, I don't even mind the reflexes thing on first runs, since I tend to rely more on reflexes than memorization. Used to be I thought I just didn't get into 2D platformers, but I can get into Megaman, Castlevania, Rocket Knight Adventures pretty well and I enjoy Mario from time to time. Eventually, I sort of figured out that it's a quirk of 2D Sonic's design that isn't present in the Adventure Era games as much and is even less prevalent with the Boost games. While 2D Sonic does punish the player for rushing forward blindly, as it should in my opinion, it also punishes the player for going too slowly. You need speed to get through the loops and to make a lot of the jumps. I tend to prefer taking my games at a slower pace, something Adventure and even Boost era Sonic are a lot more willing to allow. Admittedly, part of the reason the Adventure Era was more willing to let you slow down was because it was moderately unstable, but that's honestly half the fun of those games for me. I was glad to learn that it wasn't just that Sonic is paradoxically designed though. 2D Sonic just isn't for me, it seems. XD

[@bandicootsauce4569]

I'm still hoping that you'll eventually get around to Unleashed, Colours and Generations. I'm especially interested to hear your thoughts on how the gameplay of Generations may or may not have evolved the gameplay of Colours. I say 'may or may not' because I'm aware that your opinions on the matter may differ from mine... and that's fine! That's one of the reasons I'm interested on hearing your critique. Opinions can differ, but to the civilised mind, a dissenting opinion won't affect one's enjoyment of any particular game (a lesson that far too many internet users could stand to have drilled into their petty, insolent skulls, but I digress).

[@DrMadd]

I remember the first video game I ever owned was a game called Scooby Doo Unmasked for the Game Boy Advance. The game used a password system but since I usually played the game on the go there was usually no way to jot down what the passwords would be (remember I was a kid in the early 2000s so we didn’t all have smart phones yet) so most of the time I had to start playing the game from the beginning and over the years I played it I was able to clear the first world of the game in 15 minutes rather than 30. I also distinctly remember the first game I got with a save feature, Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros 3. Back then I don’t think I could even put into words how overjoyed I was that when I turned off the game I got to resume from the last castle I cleared. I remember for a long time getting stuck in world 2’s castle and being able to perfectly clear the two levels on the way to it. That personal connection I have to Mario 3 from a young age is probably why I think it’s still the best 2D Mario game ever made. When I played Mario World for the first time I was a teenager who had a much bigger library of easier games I could turn to so whenever I think of that game I think of just the frustration and not the joy of getting good at it because I wouldn’t try and get good, instead I would just play something else. One final game that’s replay value was important for me was Pokémon generation 4. I owned Diamond but like most kids who played Pokémon for the first time I just over leveled my starter and hoped that’d get me through the whole game which became a bad wake up call when I got to the elite four and got absolutely wrecked by Lucian and Cynthia. So when Platinum came out a year later I used all the knowledge I had gained going through the adventure the first time and managed to make a decent well rounded team and had a much easier time. I think that’s the replay value for RPGs, being able to go through the game again and knowing how you can optimize your characters to better match both your play style and better counter your opponents.

[@alaeriia01]

Case in point: the way I played Gold when I was a kid (chose Chikorita, got flattened repeatedly by the first three Gym leaders) vs now (choose Totodile, grab a Sentret and a bird, beat Sprout Tower, head south and grind for a Mareep, beat Falkner, grab a Ponyta in the cave, beat Bugsy, get a Mankey and kick Whitney's ass). It is worth pointing out, however, that the same people who talk about how great the design of Sonic is whine about Battletoads, even though that game uses the same exact principles (punish people who don't understand how the level works).

[@dukemon6163]

I feel like gamers today are just beating games for the sake of beating them fast and moving on to the next game. They just rush things. Where's the joy in... you know, actually having fun? Having replayable games today is actually very hard. But that is a great compliment, because that actually means the game is THAT GOOD. I still replay and 100% games like DKC2, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Banjo Kazooie, Super Metroid, Ocarina of Time, Paper Mario, Metroid Prime, Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow, Sonic Colors and Generations (Release a compilation for Switch please) and Tropical Freeze over and over again for years while I don't want to touch forgettable games like most of the modern Sonic games or the New Super Mario Bros. series ever again. I remember my first playthrough of many of those games being very rough (*cough* Bramble Scramble, Maridia, Sandopolis, Click Clock Wood *cough*), I can't imagine a "modern" gamer going through many of them today without looking up for a guide or just dropping the game because they didn't want to put any effort into it.

[@duffman18]

Yeah it absolutely baffles me when on reddit or wherever, so many people see a game's average length and go "oh its only 20 hours, what a rip off". Most recently saw it said about Astral Chain. I've got into so many debates about this attitude because it makes no sense. Mario 3 is a game you can beat in a few hours. But it's still the game I've probably put most hours into, and I'm still playing it decades later. If it was released today though, with no context, like released in a universe where mario never existed, you'd absolutely get people complaining that it's too short. Like if you still are playing a game decades after release, the run time of one play through has zero importance. Replayability is so much more important It kinda annoyed me with Astral Chain. People were complaining that $60 is too much for such a "short" game. I haven't even bought astral chain or even played it yet, but I had to point out to so many people that the whole point of a platinum game is to play it over and over and over again, getting better and flashier each time. That's why they always have style ranking systems, so you may start with rank D but eventually get rank S after enough practice. How silly of an argument to say it's too short. If you're meant to replay it dozens of times and be having more fun each time then that equals hundreds of hours.

[@dukemon6163]

@@duffman18 I bet this problem will arise again with the reviews of Link's Awakening. Well, many companies, specially indies, have already set a precedent of having a short game at lower price. In the case of Astral Chain or any Platinun Game. You can see all the budget and effort that went into it. Anyone who complains about it but bought REmake 2 or DMC V is an hypocrite.

[@thecianinator]

This is a great argument for why the actual 3D Sonic games were the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series. The core of the gameplay is getting to know the levels and the controls well enough to stylishly make your way through it.

[@TheRobotGamer]

YES! Everything mentioned in this video is the stuff that I try to explain to people who aren't into Sonic games or Mega Man games! When I was a kid, I got a GBA and a copy of Mega Man Zero 3. When I first played it I didn't really like it. I found it way too difficult. Eventually I beat the game and I was ready to move on to something else, but I didn't have enough money to buy another game. So what did I do? Replay the games I had, of course! And that second playthrough of Mega Man Zero 3 was WAY smoother than my first playthough. And before I knew it, I played through it a third time. And then a fourth time... and a fifth time... and a sixth time. I got really good at the game, and now it's one of my all-time favourites! For anyone out there who has ever played or completed a Mega Man game or a Sonic game and couldn't really click with it, here's my advice: Play it again. I know that sounds counterintuitive. After all, if you didn't like it the first time around then why would you like it the second time? But these are the type of games where sometimes the appeal doesn't settle in until you give it another shot. That second playthough might show you how much better you are at the game, and you'll find yourself having a lot more fun with it. Maybe you'll still dislike it, and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks. But you might turn out like me and find yourself sucked in to a new series of games to enjoy. Sometimes taking that second chance is worth it. You never know until you try!

[@daviddelpozofiliu5556]

I feel like Rayman Origins is what modern 2D sonic should be, the games feels absolutely great when you manage to keep momentum.

[@auggiebiermann]

This channel is such a goldmine

[@WickedKnightAlbel]

You really are one of the great champions of Sonic on KZbin. Keep up the good work.