The HISTORICAL problem with Kosen Judo

This video discusses the structure of Kosen Judo in Japan.
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[@Chadi]

2022 Kosen Judo highlights: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fprOe6N6pZtghsU

[@DavinTillman]

Check out Taybren Lee's judo submission grappling rule set

[@grappler240]

"There are only so many different ways to attack the human body's weak points... and everybody invented them."

[@MyLifeWithFilm]

Chadi, just a quick note that if you're travelling to Montreal (Quebec, Canada), you can try out kosen judo at the Shidokan judo club under Sensei Hiroshi Nakamura and Sensei Jean Pierre Cantin. They're super fun and structured classes that last anytime between 90-120 minutes (8PM to 10PM). Oss!

[@Chadi]

Thank you 🙇🏻‍♂️

[@Spudster1024]

And the fact that Kosen Judo is largely limited to the seven universities ensures that Japan's best high school judo practitioners with aspirations of competing at the collegiate or international level will attend a university with a judo club that plays by mainstream Kodokan competion rules.

[@patrickamos5390]

I was very fortunate to be invited to train with Hokkudai Judobu (Hokkaido University Kosen Judo club) for 2 years in the early 90s. The coaches Iwai Sensei and Sasaki Sempai, and the whole team were very welcoming. Yuki Nakai (MMA legend) was foremost among them. I am really grateful that you have been shedding light on the history of Kosen and newaza in Judo. I agree that the rule set allows for more defensive stagnation in attempts to achieve a draw. I remember how it would be considered a major achievement if I (or any weaker judoka) could survive a much stronger opponent and put an end to his run through our team. Sometimes we had 140lbs guys going against 200lb+ guys and they knew they were there only to survive. Sometimes the smaller more skilled guys won... When I left Japan and then trained 'normal' judo in Canada and Australia, my groundwork was more comprehensive and advanced than most other blackbelts, except for the older Europeans who had learned in an earlier era when more newaza was involved. I was a huge fan of Kashiwazaki, and most of my throws were tsutemi waza. But some of the coaches I encountered considered them garbage techniques. The most amazing aspect of kosen nana-dai-gakko rule set is how we are all in it together. The team with players left is the team that wins. This fosters a deeper camaraderie. And the vibe in the dojo is more tribe-like. When someone is struggling, other are more likely to help them. When someone is screwing around, others are more likely to call bullshit. The spirit of Hokkudai Judobu is something a have rarely encountered since.

[@Itzak15]

As someone who has been training at one of the imperial universities for the past year I can only agree. Have you ever returned to the university or tournament since your stay there?

[@patrickamos5390]

No I haven't been back. But I'd love to return someday. I'm now in my late 50s and I look back on that experience with profound gratitude. My 15 year old son who now trains judo and BJJ with me wants to go too. @@Itzak15

[@ignitionfrn2223]

2:35 - Problem 1 - Niche martial art 3:30 - Problem 2 - Team spirit (holding out the matches) 7:25 - Problem 3 - Not enough time 7:55 - Conclusion

[@RadicalTrivia]

I think so much about the balance between our sports being competition friendly, so they become more popular and alive, but also more geared towards being viewer-friendly, at the potential cost of realism. Of course, it's always up to the practitioner to play how they like! Great video, love the old footage.

[@Chadi]

Thank you 🙇🏻‍♂️

[@ShawnDixon-gq3ee]

good job on four years of hard work on this channel.🙂

[@Leopar525]

Slightly irrelevant maybe but I always love it when you draw similarities between Newaza and BJJ

[@m5a1stuart83]

The techniques are the same but BJJ evolve different path just like all hominids in Homo branches.

[@Leopar525]

@@m5a1stuart83 I guess you mean like any evolutionary process

[@m5a1stuart83]

@@Leopar525 yes

[@yakovdavidovich7943]

I'm surprised at your comments on the gripping in standup. I consider it a major fault when rules must be created to force players to do something they don't want to do. Kosen Judo *already* allows the guard pull, which is a solution to deadlock on the feet. You want them to create a complex system of gripping restrictions ala the IJF *in addition* to that? I wish Judo was like Sumo -- someone finds a way to nerf everyone else, and forces some lopsided game, the fans just love it and enjoy it until the new strategy gets nullified or the guy retires. They don't make new rules every other year to force everyone to play some idealized form of it.

[@nullclass0813]

Absolutely fire comment about sumo

[@megaham1552]

Like Sumo? What do you mean?

[@yakovdavidovich7943]

@@megaham1552 I mean what I said, was it confusing how I phrased it?

[@megaham1552]

@@yakovdavidovich7943 I'm not totally familiar with sumo so I was wondering what you was referring to, something with the rules?

[@yakovdavidovich7943]

@@megaham1552 sumo hasn't made more than a handful of rule changes in hundreds of years. In contrast, judo makes significant rule changes every two years to nerf what the IJF decides is unaesthetic judo. I'd rather judo take the consistent path, and just let people compete.

[@gregswanson8692]

Freestyle Judo is a great alternative sanctioned by the AAU

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Hell yeah

[@xrayfish2020]

Happy Birthday Chadi and here's to another 4 more years - OSS from London👍

[@chcknpie04]

I’m not sure I agree with you about gripping regulations. Why is it ridiculous to take a cross grip and pant leg? It didn’t really give an unfair advantage, and while it could be argued that it allows for stalling, any gripping configuration can allow for stalling if the participant is intent on stalling. Would love to hear some elaboration on this point.

[@omardiangeloarteaga4875]

You are Spot on !!!

[@ThePimpedOutPlatypus]

Kosen Judo always interests me since I train BJJ and Judo regularly, it seems to me that BJJ and Kosen Judo are nearly the same thing, except for competition rules 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@markdaniels4178]

They are the same thing but different rule set. Bjj is judo with different rule set

[@dianecenteno5275]

BJJ has adapted / updated transitions / flows and some ridiculous applications. It's a different mindset and ruleset. Thanks for sharing!

[@alanguages]

I met some Korean BJJ guys in San Diego. One said he rolled with Kosen Judo practitioners, who were exchange students in South Korea. The one thing he emphasized was the grip strength of the Kosen Judo guys was the strongest he ever encountered.

[@graciederangementsyndrome3669]

@@markdaniels4178 A bit disingenuous. Rule make styles and even innovated more ways and techniques of fighting. Kosen still maintains the ippon rule so you'll find turtling alot more prevalent when the guard is passed plus they still tend to stick to the same submission rules like no leglocks allowed. You're not gonna find a Kosen Gordon Ryan or Lucas Leite since BJJ not only kept up with Kosen but surpassed it. So they're clearly not the same

[@dianecenteno5275]

@graciederangementsyndrome3669 Old Judo / Kosen , has a variety of leg locks and is still practiced by many ( especially those of us who have been around for a while or study Western Jujitsu). Sad that Modern Judo has regressed in many ways 😔

[@andrescastillo7977]

We are trying to add Kosen (Nanatei) Judo to some universities and state-run clubs programs, we suscribed to some online courses, acquired books and dvds about Newaza and Kosen Judo; to be able to design a technical proposal, learn the rulest and strategies; we also need to find the teachers locally and from Japan that will dedicate their efforts on teaching this style, besides we have to address which federation will manage the rules and tournaments, and get a budget for this endeavor as this will create a commitment for years to come. We hope to travel to Japan next year to have a first approach regarding this subject. Getting Kosen Judo is quite an effort.

[@megaham1552]

I think the problem is it's very similar to BJJ, if you could try and make it different from BJJ as a sport then you might have more luck

[@jmcgonnell]

very interesting. going to checkout the highlights vid.

[@Ecojock]

Awesome upload!!!

[@user-ds2lm8uz6s]

Love your video and respect it 🙏

[@Howleebra]

Back then the contest of Judo resembled the life-and-death struggle from where it came much more accurately because it wasn't focused on Sports hype commercialized garbage the way our modern society has devolved the practice... if you train Judo as a martial art it's identical to the way it was always used, foolish rules applied for sports expedients end up ruining great martial arts

[@Howleebra]

All the stalling problems can be fixed in any grappling sport by penalizing or scoring push-outs and using Sumo criteria to settle stalemates... even the UFC should score someone being pushed against the fence because this is one of the most ancient and intelligent grappling metrics. "negative gripping" is ridiculous concept that only becomes pertinent when you forgot to score push-outs as grappling dominance

[@pieterduits4638]

They should use an electrified fence

[@Howleebra]

@@pieterduits4638 or perhaps just take a cue from ancient grappling sports with much more prosaic metrics🤔😆

[@hellotcautiver]

Yeah I’ve been thinking about this recently too actually. I’ve thought about how BJJ could be more of an engaging sport to watch if push outs and maybe some sort of passivity call would be implemented. More action would be forced out of the competitors this way. Glad I’m not the only one thinking this way lol

[@yakovdavidovich7943]

Deadlock on the ground is "acceptable" because it has equal impact to both players. Golden score isn't the only way to "fix" it -- you could also make it so deadlock at time expiration is a coin-flip to determine which player gets the loss. That way, it's too risky for both players to play "not to lose".

[@bjarneschmalbach1524]

Kosen Judo (and in a very similar manner some BJJ rulesets) are not as much as much spectator sports as Judo, simply because stalling is not punished. There's arguments for and against this, but you make it seem like allowing stalling is a clear deficit for a combat sport. Stalling/Holding on in some positions can be a very legitimate tactic as it allows endurance to enter the equation

[@tainanramos7711]

Valeu @Chadi

[@MrSpiralling]

could you please do a video on Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki's newaza next

[@Keepitsimple0912]

I know of some dojo's in japan which teach kosen judo and allow anyone to come in even if they are not university students.

[@jamesgrimes5527]

@chadi 1:04 into the video, there is a black and white film excerpt. Where is this from?

[@juanzuccoli]

pure newaza... thanks for the video!

[@GiorgiosPataki-du4bh]

Disfrutaría y le sacaría más provecho a la información si la virtiéses al idioma español, traduciéndola o subtitulándola.

[@LupusRexRgis]

It’s true. The rule set determines the pace of the sport. They can make Kosen Judo matches more dynamic simply by working with the rules and point system.

[@RoninFitTV]

A few years ago, I went and looked up the footage and did some research on Kosen rules. We share the same thoughts on this. It’s pretty boring and not as developed technically speaking as people think. There are exceptions of course and thankfully we know who they are.

[@animanaut]

was a bit distracted by the awesome background footage. what is the source?

[@megaham1552]

i saw a video of no gi Kosen which i thought was interesting, maybe you could do a video on how to make it different from BJJ as a spectator sport.

[@jasonrandall5148]

Your videos are classic 👌. And you sound like a true martial artist ie restful and polite and honest.

[@christophervelez1561]

Congrats on the 4 years

[@rvfree1]

Great non-bias insight and critical objective thinking.

[@Chadi]

Thank you 🙇🏻‍♂️🙏🏻

[@pastlast158]

Is this about competition only or the practice of Judo in general? In other words, if someone starts learning Judo, will he ever be subject to ground grappling training as well or not at all?

[@francismurage895]

Judo has a lot of ground work; newaza, which is part of judo training.

[@pastlast158]

@@francismurage895 So is he addressing competition only?

[@budisutanto5987]

In general, not including kosen Judo, if you start learning Judo, ground grappling training will be included, but not comprehensive, (this is in general, you might find gym that train much on ground grappling) because in a 'fight' (sparring, competition) if you takedown (throw) your opponent with perfect score, you win, the 'fight' is over. There's no ground grappling afterwards. The good news is : ground grappling isn't exactly difficult, learn it yourself from internet and you will dominate ground grappling in that gym. Just don't go challenge in Bjj gym, because there they concentrate on ground grappling.

[@ryzalboyz9511]

Original Judo is not the same what you saw in modern era of Kosen Judo, judo and BJJ.. Is only about 50% on in in all 3, OG judo is to dangerous

[@thn91506]

Do you have an English version of your book?

[@Chadi]

Soon

[@thn91506]

@@Chadi Awesome

[@edgardo9003]

Where can I learn Kosen Judo?

[@AbsoluteStorm]

Interesting points, but it seems to me that BJJ is a very similar sport that solves the three issues. Do we really need Kosen Judo to become more widespread?

[@flowrepins6663]

the more the marrier

[@CoelhoSports]

There are kosen tournaments every year in the US.

[@4li5nga23]

Can you make video about South East Asian wrestling style 'Lai Paih'

[@teovu5557]

The Chin style of belt wrestling? Its standing wrestling they dont grapple on the ground at all.

[@MrPotatoesLatkie]

What do the participants do after they graduate University? Why can't they continue to practice their Ne-Waza focus, and have their own tournaments?

[@MrPotatoesLatkie]

@@Paul-nj5xh Aren't their neighborhood Judo clubs for people to practice Judo for recreation, health and fitness?

[@sergiobacellar5570]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻😁

[@KarlKarsnark]

The Japanese play "not to lose", rather than to "win" outright. That's why stalling and running out the clock is seen as "good", because you "didn't lose" and you showed "tenacity", if not technique. As such, most of their arts are overly defensive and lack the aggression needed in a "Fight"(Aikido). It can also be seen as "bad form" to "dominate"/humiliate an opponent, which leads to more passive techniques, as well. Kosen wants to "build national character", not create world class grapplers, fighters, or athletes. It's just like a regular college fraternity with gym class. It's meant to build "character", not be an "effective" system in and of itself. Besides, the "Kids today" don't care about the Gi, so I doubt Kosen would ever catch on outside of Judoka/Aikidoka.

[@haraldodunkirk1432]

Dude, not sure where you got that stuff from. Aikido, sure, but judo, karate are very aggressive.

[@bushy9780]

*Miyamoto Musashi has entered the chat* While I am mainly just meme-ing, I do think it's a valid counterpoint to your argument. Surely there are Japanese practitioners that have read Musashi and you can't come away from The Book of Five Rings with the "play not to lose" strategy. I think you may be over generalizing.

[@benkeating3053]

The process of the win and the way you win are more important than winning at any cost. Japan puts great value on the quality of the win. In Judo for instance winning by ippon is the ultimate goal. Many clubs still have the mentality that it's better to loose by ippon than to win by wazaari.

[@budisutanto5987]

It's not 'not to lose' but not to give up. In MMA, in stagnant grappling, the referee would judge if the attacker's lack aggressiveness, then reset the fight back to standing. -> It's the attacker responsibility to finish it. In Bjj, whoever on top wins. Personally I agree, because in a fight which include ground pounding, it easy to win for me. It's battle field martial art, the Japanese strive for perfect takedown, perfect takedown cause death, so they can move on to other opponent, there's no lack of opponent in battlefield. Nowadays, it's useful in riot situation against opponent using riot gear. You can't hurt using hit(punch & kick) only effective offense is to slam opponent to the ground or break the limbs. It might look inefficient in combat sport, not using hit against unarmored opponent. Ronda Rousey shows the world how effective Judo can be, BEFORE she decided to only use stand up fighting in MMA. She should do that in boxing or kickboxing, not in MMA.

[@danle3181]

"not to lose" rather than "to win"... Helio Gracie ? ;)

[@justjustreid1527]

Pourquoi ça fait pas de sense que le kosen judo soit pas représenté au adcc? Il devrait l’être voyons donc

[@onaldoper]

FILMAGENS MODERNA EM PRETO E BRANCO,MAQUIADAS PARA PARECEREM ANTIGAS ☻🥋👊🏿👍🏿🇧🇷👏🏿🙏🏿🤣😂🤣😂😅😎🍺🍻😋😛😁🥳🥊

[@Chadi]

Oda morreu na década de 1950

[@Laughingman9432]

Why do you believe the adcc comment is a red harring ?

[@Jamie-zs8ok]

Kosen Lary

[@prvtthd401]

Okuri eri shime everywhere.

[@ryzalboyz9511]

Those old video was come from semi modern Jiu-jutsu.. The original Judo (Jiu-jutsu) has hundreds of techniques it was teaching to japanese clan members to another back when the clan still has civil war.. After this not to much because the era of war was ended! What we saw today like Kosen Judo, judo and BJJ only have 45% to 50% of original Jiu-jutsu.. The original is to dangerous can kill they they opponent in instant

[@teovu5557]

There is no "original" jujutsu as it is not one system, it is over 2 dozen separate styles with different techniques. Also Traditional Kodokan Judo actual has more techniques then most old Jujutsu systems as Judo is a combination of several Jujutsu styles. (Judo as a sport is limited but the whole Kodokan system is not)

[@oseiasgeremias135]

Admite que o Braxilian jiu-jitsu é melhor que dói menos.

[@Mystery207]

Cause they didn't cheat on th e rules when kfc first began

[@insidethevelvetglove3919]

you need to speak louder the sound is very weak

[@Shadowrulzalways]

The Brazilians have definitely not evolved anything in ne-waza. They love to talk a big game but anyone who is well educated in these martial arts will tell you, there is NOTHING new within the realm of BJJ. Old Judo has everything BJJ has today. Kosen Judo, especially. Japanese Jujutsu has had ne-waza then, but Judo was the art that evolved it. Not BJJ. Not saying BJJ isn’t good. Just saying, they didn’t add anything new to the table. It usually comes down to the practitioner. Some have made very unique changes in their style, but as a whole, the art has not evolved anything. Otherwise, Kimura wouldn’t understood and have beaten Helio. And Yoshida wouldn’t have beaten Royce in their first match. Heck, even Sakaraba wouldn’t have won. Again, the Gracie’s are good fighters, but they are better at self-promoting and talking than walking. If you know what I mean. I trained in Judo and Atemi-Ryu Jujutsu. And I have spared with people who have done BJJ. And they had nothing new for me to notice. All the ground game was the same as what I have learned in Judo and Jujutsu. I mostly used Judo against them because Jujutsu is mainly for self-defense and I didn’t want to hurt them. I mean, why would I? Besides, I respect all people who practice any style of martial arts. I gave fair critiques on their BJJ and they actually agreed with me. They even took Judo afterwards. Because BJJ today neglects throws and other techniques of a similar nature. All because they wanted to look different from Judo. And THAT is the problem with martial arts today. They try too hard to look distinguishably different. And that’s hurting martial arts in certain categories.

[@a053303]

Wrong, BJJ (gi and nogi) is very progressive whereas judo unfortunately is conservative to the point it is killing itself (IJF / IOC...) and getting boring. I'd like to see the judo of the 80ies come back. Yes, off course judo was the basis of BJJ but to think that every single thing EVER done in BJJ comes from judo is naive and just silly. Do you know how short the Gracies (and others, Fadda etc...) trained under the Japanese? The influence of vale tudo on BJJ in the early years is huge, THAT is what the Gracies have added, a "judo" system that works when people are punching and kicking in nogi. I love judo and BJJ (I have 2 black belts so I believe I have a pretty good view) but as much as BJJ people think they are the chosen ones I unfortunately have to say that judo people generally are too elitist. Pretty much any judo guy that comes for a trial class or to sharpen their newaza gets dominated pretty easily. Judoka's standup game is typically better but they have no clue what to do if people pull guard / play guard and have the incredibly stupid tendency to turtle up (again.... the rules) making you an easy target in a grappling match and even more in a self defence situation let alone MMA.

[@jjs3890]

Original BJJ was nothing new. It has evolved especially in the no gi sport realm. I personally don’t consider the evolved BJJ useful in self defense. The rule set make it so you can climb your opponent like a tree and get a choke. Or go through several transitions for a fancy choke or lock with no risk of getting punched. Or pulling guard. Some allow slaps though. But for practical self defense, it’s pretty useless and over complicated for its own good.

[@naakaalastudio6655]

@@a053303 They don't train BJJ and think they know what BJJ practitioner does because in their minds they are just doing Judo. DELUSIONAL. They fail to see that BJJ is adopting a lot of wrestling and is evolving rapidly. I chuckle every time I come here, they are so bitter. LOL

[@a053303]

@jjs3890 lol just google and see how useless it is. There is a huge amount of video's of self defence situations where people are getting taken down, choked or their arms and legs broken. People training for self defence hardly ever spar, BJJ/judo/wrestling/.... works in self defence because they spar all the time. Maybe go to a decent BJJ club and ask to do some rounds where you can slap someone in the face. Try it, should be fun

[@carlosandres1835]

Totally wrong, bjj is a moderns sport in constant evolve, judo is getting in a hole

[@willyhwang1059]

does anyone want to roll around with an attacker on dirty streets ?

[@jjs3890]

For reality fights, It’s a poor choice. I mean you should know some ne-waza but the goal should be to avoid that position at all cost. The risk of having his friends stomp a mud hole in your backside is high.

[@badart3204]

It works well for restraining people in semi violent situations. Everyone says multiple attackers but if you are smart you should have friends helping you out

[@samuraiken88]

sounds like BJJ LOL

[@carlosbjj4258]

Vive bjj

[@Patch57055]

The problem with kosen judo is that it was stolen and rebranded bjj.