Grading Gay Rep - We Shouldn't Have to Settle for Scraps (Glass of Water)

[@LilianOrchard]

Comments asking "What about X show" or recommendations will be banned. Discuss the video, stop spamming

[@nicolersands]

I made one of those comments before seeing this and immediately deleted it, sorry for the trouble.

[@LilianOrchard]

You don't need to

[@bitbot9834]

Well there goes Yoshee_Ink and Laffencrunch

[@saphymolly]

I know you don’t want us to say this, but I was genuinely hoping you were going to cover bojack horseman

[@jovindsouza3407]

@@saphymollyWell, BoJack Horseman doesn't really count for the purposes of this list because it's 18+, but going by your train of thought- BoJack is definitely a huge step forward to ace representation (Todd Chavez), but I'm not sure if there's much else as most gay characters appear in one or two episodes each. Herb is the exception to the rule, as he is a major influence hanging over the events of the show and on BoJack in particular. That being said, he has only one present-day appearance (shortly after which he dies), and his story is told through flashbacks or hallucinations, not to mention that as far as I'm aware he is never shown to be in a proper relationship with a man on-screen. If Herb counts for anything, his story is an excellent way to showcase the toxicity and malice directed towards LGBTQIA+ creators in Hollywood, which lasts to the modern day. So that's something I guess. Final score (imo) - B

[@megstuart5917]

Obsidian made me feel really happy. Their dynamic was nicely explored, and I just thought it was a well thought out special. It had the soft moments, it had each characters moments of weakness, it built upon their troubled past, and it had some nice songs that are some right bops. I like it. More of that please.

[@UnorthodoxIndividual]

Unfortunately it was a one off special, but agreed. My only complaint really was that I wanted more.

[@Midnight-Starfish]

Just a little thing going off the point about enemies to lovers, I think it can work, but they can't be enemies and lovers at the same time. If the enemy realises their point of view is flawed or amoral, switches sides, and overtime do they gain each others trust, apologies for what they done, develop a friendship, try to become a better person, and eventually develop a romance, then I think it can work. But I do agree that just shipping two people who are trying to murder each other is really concerning and problematic.

[@Anastasia-ls8dd]

it should be enemies to friends to lovers

[@Midnight-Starfish]

@@Anastasia-ls8dd I would add an extra step of enemies, to allies, to friends, to lovers

[@Hambolove16]

Yes i agree which is why i wasn't aboard the Catradora ship until the last season. Was it still bad and shouldn't have happened..?? Maybe or would have been far more accepting if they had a full season of her being redeemed before the last season.

[@Hambolove16]

@@Midnight-Starfish This

[@ithinkflutterawesome6511]

Totally agree, you gotta work your way up to earn their trust. Jumping straight from Enemies to Lovers is waaaaay too fast and feels wrong. However, if the villian goes through a convincing redemption arc, earn back those people's trust first as an ally, then a friend, and finally a lover, than that relationship feels much more healthy. If Catra's redemption has started in Season 3, this problems mostly goes away.

[@Argentum.19]

As someone who used to practically worship Steven Universe for how progressive and fun it was, I wanted to thank you for explaining how fucked up some of the metaphors and character arcs actually were, and now I realize that we as a community deserve so much better. I also appreciate how firm you are with your standards of rep, even though the shows were made in different years. I did want to see your opinions on Kipo but I'm happy with what we've got nonetheless, thank you Lily ^^

[@DobroPitanje]

Same here, it mostly showed me how low my standards were(I knew they were low before but not to an extent) and how i would just ignore something because "funny to watch, so it must be good"

[@PandaHug11]

Kipo has to be my fav rep so far (granted haven’t seen the later half of Adventure Time though). But here we have a character who flat out states he’s gay, like no allegory, just flat out “I’m gay” in the first season. And then we see him crushing and developing a relationship with Troy in the last two seasons. It’s so wholesome ❤️

[@marquistf1996]

🎯

[@mytombwillbeatesco]

I didnt even know that gorge and lance had names, I just thought they were bows gay dad's.

[@egon2499]

I'd actually like if they get a backstory or something. Otherwise it felt like they were just thrown in for the representation only and nothing else.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@egon2499 I wonder if the reason for very small Gay rep is because most of these shows are kid shows, so any full gay romance will cause the soccer moms to demand censorship????

[@henrymathias2702]

I have a sneaking suspicion that this video was made just so you could put the word gay-lo in it

[@Schroering1]

How to write a gay romance: Step 1: Write a romance Step 2: Make it gay I don't think it's that hard... When I wrote a gay couple for my story, it literally NEVER crossed my mind that I needed to do any kind of hand-waving, disguising, or subtle nuances. Because I was writing just a normal couple, but with two guys... And that's honestly where most of these shows falter. This should've stopped being a big deal a long time ago.

[@ronjoe17]

Kinda surprised there's no mention of Kipo given that it's pretty famous for having a main character who's human and gay, gets together with his crush in the 2nd season, has a first kiss with him in the 3rd, and has them still together in the epilogue. They also explicitly say "gay" and "boyfriend". I understand if you missed the hype since it's a Netflix show and not super popular, but it's still kinda weird to ignore such a positive example.

[@gamepopper101]

My guess is that it either didn't interest Lily for other reasons or went over her radar since I've never heard her mention Kipo in other videos.

[@Chrissi33004]

Maybe she just didn't watch it or it just wasnt her cup of tea. Who knows but I don't think she brushed it under the table intentionally

[@mcmuffinbooper2333]

@@gamepopper101 No she knows about it. In her Owl House season one podcast her, Mikayla, or Ginger mention the show 🤔

[@gamepopper101]

@@mcmuffinbooper2333 Oh yeah, I didn't catch it the first time because Ginger said "Kippo"

[@DeanS946]

@@mcmuffinbooper2333 Did they like it?

[@CyberWarezz05]

I am sooo sooo glad you spoke about the abusive relathionship of Catra and Adora!I hateee people that, like you said, try to justify an abusive relationship.When I told them that Catra tried to kill Adora, they were like"pffttt that's not true!It was just teasing!".HOW the fuck trying to KILL someone is considered teasing?I met the same mentality on my elementary school classmates.Some of us were bullied and after a few years, when we met in high school, they said"aaahh calm down.They weren't bullies!They were just joking!".

[@sandywolfr26]

Know what worse? Some people didn’t even know they were a couple cuz they grew up together as foster siblings. Know how awkward that is? I didn’t know they was a thing til that prom episode. And I’m like they was raised together though. They are more like sisters than a couple. They could fix it by having shadow weaver not as a parent but like a army commander or something.

[@CyberWarezz05]

@@sandywolfr26 The thing is that a lot of people use that as an excuse for"couple development".But like you said, you can grow together with someone as a sibling too.Just because said person is not blood related and is also your best friend, does not automatically makes them"lover material".And Catra and Adora definitely weren't that.

[@hollisss3409]

@@sandywolfr26 EXACTLY! I honestly never saw them as potential lovers, just best friends or something on that line! (only during the first part of the first season when catra didn't try to kill adora multiple times)

[@ponygonporygon2153]

@@sandywolfr26 Honestly, with Catra sleeping at the foot of Adora's bed and the pouncing, I thought she was doing basic cat mannerisms.

[@colbaltmind5696]

I always preferred Glimmerdora over Catradora, and I was so tired of seeing people excuse the behavior Catra performed even after Catra's "redemption arc". Even though Catradora is Canon I will always prefer Glimmerdora bc at least Glimmer isn't an abusive shithead

[@bethanymcmurtrey9542]

Wait, Tonks was considered coded gay? Well, I didn't realize 70s punk rock fangirls were all LGBT coded.

[@BrightWulph]

It's even specified in the book she's introduced in (Order of the Pheonix, IIRC?) that she's a Metamorphmagus, basically, a witch born with an extremely rare genetic ability to change her form at her own will, its demonstrated in Half-Blood Prince even further when she starts crushing on Remus (i.e her changing her hair to a more mousy colour and even her Patronus charm changes) Nothing about that description says that she's "gay coded", especially the way how she chases Lupin. :-/

[@isabelrose1420]

8:48 ok so as a non-binary person who is also ace, this ment a lot to me. People are constantly pointing to shitty rep when I talk about not seeing myself in media, then tell me I'm asking for to much when I discredit their points. It's rediclous. Right when you said that I got this huge smile on my face like, 'oh my gods! That's me!!!'. I was so excited that that someone even acknowledged my existence. I can't imagine how happy I would be to see people like me in media. for my identity to be talked about openly. Not as a alien or some fusion or a metaphor or smthn, just someone who exists authentically. a person. A actual human being with human emotions. Thank you Lily for making this video. It made me feel so validated knowing someone else noticed this BS.

[@nathanwood4757]

I am so glad someone actually talks about Catras abuse. To all her friends. It really pissed me off how quickly they flipped hlthe switch on her and how many people were so happy about this. It sent such a bad message to kids. Abuse isn't okay n

[@entr3_nou5]

Okay, here’s the thing with Vaggie. So far in Hazbin Hotel, we only have one episode. In that episode, there are two instances where Vaggie gets really upset; when Angel Dust makes them a laughing stock on public television, and when the *most powerful demon in hell is at their door.* These are completely valid reasons to get upset, and in both these instances, Vaggie gets incredibly defensive for Charlie’s sake. In the scenes with Charlie backstage she seems completely well adjusted. The problem is that the only other characters to have alternate reactions to these instances are Charlie, who’s too nice to get upset at Angel and Alastor, and later Angel himself, who doesn’t know who the radio demon is and thus doesn’t give a shit. If someone were seriously being threatened, like, say, Cherri Bomb or Fat Nuggets, it’s likely based on outside sources like ADDICT that Angel would get just as upset or even more so than Vaggie herself. Do I think Vaggie’s perfect? No. Personally I would have done away with the whole taco joke and saved it for a later episode when we’ve seen Vaggie as more than “angry Latino lady.” If this stays consistent in future episodes I’ll be glad to eat my words, but as of right now, I don’t think the claim that Vaggie is just a Latino stereotype to be very fair.

[@LilianOrchard]

You didn't make the show, so you have no reason to jump to it's defense and dismiss the frustration of a lot of people like this.

[@anonymoususer8180]

@@LilianOrchard You didn't make the show, so you have no reason to analyze it to learn from its mistakes. Now do you see the problem?

[@anonymoususer8180]

I agree that the sample size for the conclusion is incredibly small compared to the others, and that fact wasn't properly mentioned. However, it is still a valid conclusion.

[@asaknight321]

Can't wait for the show to come out and get more charlie x vaggie content

[@superstarultra28]

Thank you for pointing out She-Ra's terrible relationships! Catra is SO toxic and nearly destroyed the whole universe! She did not deserve to be redeemed and she did not deserve to end up with Adora at the end!

[@TheRusty]

Yup. I actually love the show, I think it's a good adventure fantasy on its own. The problem is the showrunners wanted the series to be an examination of overcoming abuse... and they also wanted a winding romance at the same time. I'm sure there's ways to get that - maybe I dunno making Catra less of a omnicidal psychopath? Maybe have her and Scorpia stay in the damn desert ruling as lesbian warlords like the Good Old Days? But the writers didn't get there.

[@Hambolove16]

@@TheRusty You know now that i think about it had they stayed in the desert and ruled no mans land and then the showrunners made it to where the folks of the desert along with their new ruler Catra and brightmoon had to come together to finally beat hordac perhaps when they ended up together at the end it would have been better deserved and not seemed as totally toxic.

[@adamoutrage6597]

She absolutely did.

[@Justme-wm8vr]

@@brooke1978 Trauma doesn't excuse or justify abuse. It explains it, yes, but it doesn't mean you get a "Get ouf of jail"-card just because you are/were an abuse victim. Adora was abused as well. And not only did she recognize she was fighting for the wrong side once she was presented with clear evidence of it, she actively tried to get Catra out of that toxic environment as well. Several times. Catra thanked her by metaphorically and literally spitting in her face every single time and throwing tantrum after tantrum because Adora's world no longer revolved solely around her. Catra only got a grip once it became clear that there would be no benefit for her in supporting genocidal tyrants. Before that she gleefully committed war crime after war crime, tortured innocent people out of spite towards Adora and treated everybody who tried to get close to and help her like shit. Using trauma as a shield for being a horrible person is a shitty thing to do.

[@catra.dora1685]

I’m clearly not an unbiased observer (check the username), but I don’t think redemption or forgiveness is about “who deserves what.” It’s about who is willing to take the steps to make amends and change their ways. To seek help and forgiveness. This comment is arguing for punitive justice, but She-Ra is all about restorative action. So I guess it depends on where your philosophical beliefs lie. Personally, I think that punitive justice is absolutely FUCKED and never leads to meaningful change (see: mass incarceration in America). So I like She-Ra’s (arguably simplistic) pro-restorative justice, pro-redemption messaging.

[@jonmercano1138]

“Steven Universe has...zero” Ad! Holy shit, that was perfect! Made me laugh hard!

[@red9485]

On-topic: Bubbline is super cute and I love how all the bits of their relationship is sprinkled throughout the show for those paying attention and (slowly) keeps building up. Adventure Time is the cupcake, Bubbline is the pretty sprinkles, and the Obsidian episode is the cherry. Off-topic: Your channel icon on my tiny phone screen almost looked like you drawn in the style of Big Mouth and I panicked.

[@j.a.ogrady7783]

And Voltron... It'd be far too kind to give it an F-

[@BrightWulph]

My sister is still mad about the last season of Voltron, she rants about it every chance she gets.

[@alyssabullock6421]

The ONE LGBT character of that show had to be killed off for a majority of the series. And when he is revealed to have a husband? THEY KILLnTHE HUSBAND And then we don't know jack about his new one that he married in the last episode, so it's like some last minute dessert for the fans who wanted what ever gay rep they could get. Shiro deserved better.

[@wazzupyuwu]

"Non-binary and ace people deserve actual, tangible, meaningful representation." You have no idea how much that this meant to me. I'm genuinely unsure I've ever had my sexuality represented in a good way-- if at all-- outside of maybe fanfictions. And, although I'm not non-binary, the way they're represented is just so poor. Their either non-human characters or villains most of the time (from what I've personally seen), sometimes even both. For all the nonbinary people who may be reading this: YOU DESERVE BETTER! You are extremely cool and wonderful in every way possible, and you deserve good representation!! I love you and you deserve only nice things. 💛💜🖤

[@barbaraw1245]

Asexual representation- Jughead from the Archie comics and Todd in Bojack Horseman. Todd also goes to an Ace support group where you learn that quote a few background characters are ace. Bojack Horseman is a dope show that I'd totally reccomend

[@Reverend_Salem]

@@barbaraw1245 dosen't jugghead say that he would rather have hamburgers than a partner?

[@barbaraw1245]

@@Reverend_Salem sounds like something hed say haha. There was also a comic where he had a crush on Betty but I dont think it went anywhere

[@Reverend_Salem]

@@barbaraw1245 I've only read snippets of the comics, and watched some episodes of the archie animated show and have a bare bones understanding of any of the characters. Also if he did have a crush on Betty he could be Asexual/demiromantic

[@barbaraw1245]

@@Reverend_Salem same here, I've read maybe 5 or 6 comic books And yeah I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that he's asexual

[@sleepycryptid8275]

As a nonbinary acespec person, we really do get the short end of the stick.

[@Jaewing]

Unfortunately tell me about it, even the lgbta+ will deny Aro/Ace as a part of the community.

[@KingsNJenssons]

the two closes things ive had to the type of ace i am is luffy from one piece and todd from bojack horseman, now todd is stated to be asexual unlike luffy but he isnt the same type of ace as me haha

[@Charlie-up8hy]

I would be really good because I'm closeted because every time I told a person about me being ace they just didn't believe me, or said that I just had to wait for the right person.

[@sojirem6677]

What I wouldn’t give for some good nonbinary acespec demi-romance that’s stated outright and has a dynamic different from closeted crushes and overdramatic pining.

[@Chargedolt]

What's the "spec" part? That's a new term to me :o

[@BexxiM]

It took me years of being a "Tomboy" before one of my friends sat me down and asked me what I know about nonbinary. I would have killed to see nonbinary rep as a little kid.

[@nicolersands]

Nunya Dambidniss Orrrr... maybe someone else’s gender identity and how they came to understand it is nun ya damn bidniss

[@diip-ali1228]

This might seem weird coming from a random stranger but I hope you're still friends, they sound like a keeper

[@juliantapia1407]

Owl House leaves me hopeful. I feel that's a justified kind of sentiment considering how season 1 handled the genre, most of its characters, and so many types of staples of the genre. Adventure time built a sweet reconciliation of a female friendship, which was a very nice departure from the two girls in finn's life not getting along. It was around the time that the episodes where that t shirt of marceline's came into play (where she helps PB with her varmint problem and later where PB helps her get her stuffed toy back and trades in that shirt) that made me genuinely feel like they were gonna be an end game couple, and the short but sweet kiss at the end cemented it. Like a small campfire in the middle of a dark forest, it kept me warm. This obsidian special felt like a breezy day on the warm sands of a beach, so much More, so much Better, and I want it to become the New standard. It's not EXCEPTIONAL, but it's Good, and we haven't had enough Good. We deserve more of it.

[@juleswhisler401]

I loved obsidian, it made me really happy to see a their relationship, the struggles, working through them, then theres moments of them being a loving couple.

[@majoraswrath6182]

I was so insanely excited watching Obsidion when Bubblegum was able to tell Marceline "I love you". When you pointed out how it NEVER happens, it was refreshing.

[@tipsy634]

she calls her her girlfriend! her vampire girlfriend! i died. i hope that happens frequently enough in the future for it to no longer be a big deal

[@rainyrouge5123]

Thanks for saying LGBTA! I'm an aromantic woman so that really means a lot to me.

[@pugmcmuffins9282]

I don't want to come across as rude at all, just learning. What does it mean to be aromantic? I genuinely have never heard before and I'm worried about getting misinformation if I Google it.

[@rainyrouge5123]

@@pugmcmuffins9282 I'll try to explain as best as I can, sorry if I end up being unclear or confusing. Pretty much, I don't feel romantic attraction and I don't have any desire to be in a romantic relationship. I feel physically attracted to people, but that's where my interest begins and ends. Being aromantic and asexual are two different things because romantic and sexual attraction are two different things and it's possible to feel one without feeling the other.

[@anddatkat796]

​@Blackbirds singing in the dead of night I'm usually pretty bad at explaining stuff unless I've got a script or have repeated it a lot (Thanks, ADHD -.-), so whenever people ask about my sexuality (aro), I usually just say; "Think of friendzoning someone, except that "someone" is everyone". Not great, but it usually gets the job done. Might try to remember your version though, in case someone asks me to elaborate in the future.

[@pugmcmuffins9282]

@Blackbirds singing in the dead of night @Rainy Rouge ooh that makes sense! Thank you for your explanations! They were both really clear and made easy to understand. :)

[@no_siema_co_tam6650]

As a fellow aromantic girl I agree 100% It always makes me feel happy and acknowledged

[@fennekinlynx6585]

So waht your saying is me writing my shera fanfic that's just the show thru the lens of spinerella and netossa is cool?

[@LilianOrchard]

YES!

[@varianmetcalf8220]

Wait people actually though that tonks was lgbta coded because of said points. Gosh they really missed the point

[@Nightman221k]

LOL Yeah they say she was an LGBT icon cause her hair was colorful.

[@alexgrim5165]

Tonks isn't nonbinary nor bi in canon, but she's 1 of my Favourite characters an' I'm nonbinary & bi so I *headcanon* her as being the same. It's infuriating how many people keep *lying* by stating their headcanons as canon facts instead of acknowledging they're headcanons.

[@juliantapia1407]

I still remember how factions of the Fandom way back when were hoping Remus and Sirius were being set up to become Harry's new gay uncles/new home.

[@juliantapia1407]

@@wannabecartoonist7389 the Fandom made it awesome. They overall treated the series better than rowling

[@juliantapia1407]

@@wannabecartoonist7389 I can still understand the Draco Harry thing, but Snape Harry is just... 😆

[@randompromises1038]

articles upon articles have hammered into my head that subtlety is better because then your readers don't feel like they're being spoon-fed and that they can make connections themselves. but what always stumped me was - when is it appropriate and when is it not? so yeah this video helped a lot dhdjhd

[@tipsy634]

subtlety is for cowards, people are not subtle about their relationships in real life unless theyre scared of being persecuted. people who are in charge of things and who write articles are still scared of media presenting the world as it is.

[@Anastasia-ls8dd]

subtlety is bad because most cishet people won't notice them in the first place so it won't change their views

[@randompromises1038]

@@tipsy634 actually it wasn't just relationships, it was just advice on expressing someone is sad rather than saying it upfront or stuff along those lines. kinda explains why i used to heavily write with purple prose.

[@Deadly_Laser]

@@tipsy634 Not necessarily, but the real kicker is that what's called "subtlety" in all these shows is really just obscurity.

[@tempest7976]

Ok but if She-Ra had been written slightly differently and glimmer and adora had gotten together in the first season, then I think they would have actually been an alright couple.

[@birdsey3354]

I throughly enjoyed She-ra, but I thought the violent dynamic that Catra and Adora shared was unnecessarily abusive. I’ve watched a lot of character studies online about adora and catra’s relationship, and how shadow weaver connects to them and cause some of their relationship problems. Overall, I don’t think it excuses the way catra treated adora. I found it a little triggering at times as I have PTSD.

[@diip-ali1228]

The problem with a lot of these character studies is that they tend to pin the blame SOLELY on Shadow weaver and neglect the fact that Catra had agency in a lot of the things she did. Yes, its important to hold the abuser accountable and yes, we should understand what caused such toxic behavior. But there's a fine line between having sympathy for Catra and painting her as this helpless precious baby who just needs a good cuddle to chase all the trauma away. The latter is terrible because not only does it send a message that a toxic or downright abusive person in your life can just suddenly turn good if you give them enough love, but also because it makes abuse victims themselves seem like they're never in control of their own actions and every bad thing they did all traces back to their abuser, completely absolving them of any wrongdoing. The way some fanfic writers portray Catra honestly sickens me because she's almost always stripped of anything that would make her even slightly unlikable. Canon Catra had her soft sides, yes, but she could also be mean, cruel, sharp, sarcastic and hot-tempered. Abuse victims aren't your precious uwu creatures that are waiting for the right person to save them, they're not sweet little angels who could do no wrong, they're normal human beings who are just as capable of doing bad as well as good

[@zelul13]

I was hoping to see the loud house, in regards to Luna and Sam, on this list but then again you already covered it in its own separate video. Carry on.

[@VoxTenebrae]

Just sad we haven't seen more of it. Harold and Howard McBride are both supporting characters so they wouldn't qualify for this, yet we've seen much more of their relationship than Luna and Sam's

[@commissarluke2898]

There has been so many times I've watched a show and two gay characters get called cannon for holding hands. I 100% of the time don't catch on and usually informed by fans after watching it all, too often do I consider bad wittering and representation as just me being too stupid to notice. Obviously when two people go through something horribly traumatic and hug after the fact that obviously means they are in love. What type of gay experience am I missing out on?!

[@WizardLizzard]

Sigh, Catradora was such a mixed bag for me. A lot of it actually depended on how they would handle Catra's inevitable redemption. I was on board right untill that season 3 finale. They made her go so far over the line that the 'abuse victim continuing the cycle of abuse' aspect of Catra's struggle, didn't matter anymore. And then they made her be so nasty in season 4. If they really wanted to show that road from victim to abuser to recovering, they really had to start waaay sooner than the last season. I'd have loved to see her owning up to her mistakes, actually working to build up trust again with Adora and earn that heartfelt connection. But I guess 4 seasons of fighting and 1 season of healing is the way to go 😒

[@alicetheneko7529]

Keep in mind, it also takes times to notice mistakes, the devastating effect it may have, AND admit to it before starting the road to recovery. There is one video where someone goes into depth of Catra’s character and going over the symptoms of BPD with how Catra displays almost all of the listed symptoms. Does it justify Catra’s actions? No. Does it explain why she acted the way she did? Yes. Catra and Adora were both victims of abuse. While Adora was favored by Shadow Weaver, Catra was in Adora’s shadow and BPD can be caused by traumatic events. I’m not sure if this is correct, but I think Catra got the worst of the abuse. From my perspective, I believe that Catra really loved Adora, however she was unsure of how to display it while being in the Horde, where weakness is not an option, as well as developing BPD during her childhood due to her being subjected to abuse like Adora. She grew up, trying to imitate what Shadow Weaver was doing in order to gain the ‘love’ that was given to Adora. Catra had also displayed some abandonment issues as seen in one of the flashbacks. Catra was afraid that Adora was going to leave her to be friends with Lonnie. Switching back to the present, she still displays those issues. She wants to let people in, but unfortunately ends up pushing them away: Adora, Entrapta (banishing her to Beast Island), and Scorpia. Double Trouble cuts straight to the point by the end of S4, telling Catra that, albeit not in the best way. Probably the worst way. I’m not trying to justify what she has done, but I love that the developers had put in the effort to make Catra realize what she’s done in the past and tries to make up for it. Even if it took 4-5 seasons. It’s much better than not having her realize her mistakes at all and try to make up for them the best that she can.

[@Dranlia]

Owl House has me at least hopeful. Seriously hope Luz and Amity get together and stay together. Even if they may not be the perfect couple. Just having an ongoing gay relationship will make me happy.

[@pinkbunnyskyedoesthings7762]

And they were.

[@smolishaya]

Kaboom, the term (awesome) girlfriend, sweet potato is used, do you want to out with me is used, a non-binary and a woman in a relationship (raeda ftw), and a canon aroace character in the radio? Podcast? Idk but it was Lilith Clawthorne

[@onyekachukwumukwumereije799]

Dude Lumity is the worst lesbian gay animated couple the world has ever seen. Its Undeveloped, rushed and got bad characterization and the storytelling Is garbage. I’ve seen better lgbt ships that actually make a lot more sense.

[@skittyhugs7457]

​@@onyekachukwumukwumereije799 boy you must loooove catradora, you sick fek

[@cosmic_riff]

I told my mom there was a wlw couple in TOH and when we watched the first episode together she thought it was Willow and Luz

[@tipsy634]

to be honest i thought it was willow and amity too until i saw the dance

[@Hambolove16]

Lol i too thought their relationship was tense because of romantic tension which is really terrible. It's like we expect that hostility stems from feelings of love.

[@cosmic_riff]

I MEANT WILLOW AND LUZ

[@jayelatolbert5822]

I’m so glad you talked about Catradora, cause for a long time we’ve been given that and told this was the most best thing possible. I think the only thing I honestly thing is really amazing about the show is Bow’s two black dads because as a black child growing up anything close to seeing this and it not being made fun of would’ve helped.

[@Siennarchist]

Wasn't there one human lesbian character in SU? I thought she had like one episode with pearl. It was still awful, since she looked exactly like rose, and the pearl and rose thing was hella creepy, but worth mentioning

[@popperscore]

Never confirmed in the show if she was a lesbian. It goes back to the main problem with SU general storytelling in that it hints at things rather than state them outright. Its super ambiguous if they're even into Pearl. Also she's a one episode side character who never shows up again.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@popperscore I wonder if the reason for very small Gay rep is because most of these shows are kid shows, so any full gay romance will cause the soccer moms to demand censorship????

[@reesesutton4099]

Just realized this but uh.... *Lily blinks now*

[@Gutslove]

Thanks, youtube, for not telling me this video premiered and JUST telling me it's available now.

[@Hambolove16]

Yep... THaNks yOutuBe 😒

[@svetakuklina8398]

07:15 Huh, say that to russian Netflix that marked She-ra as "for viewers older than 18"

[@LilianOrchard]

Putin being a brain dead moron is his own problem to deal with

[@dimreaper8883]

i watched legend of kora with my sister and when we got to the end, she was surprised that they were a couple since what they were basically doing was going on a hiking trip.

[@scaredofsociety6351]

I honestly don't see the problem that people have with kora and assami

[@dimreaper8883]

@@scaredofsociety6351 the problem is that if wasn't told they got together I wouldn't have known

[@scaredofsociety6351]

@@dimreaper8883 you do realize the show ended in 2014 a year before gay marriage became legal in the us

[@dimreaper8883]

@@scaredofsociety6351 so they couldn't really make it good rep

[@scaredofsociety6351]

@@dimreaper8883 and considering it was the first-ever gay couples in a kid show I think they did well it could've been better but it was defiantly a step in the right direction

[@irlivlis]

I'm aromantic asexual. It kinda- sucks not having representation. Like to the point where I'm just used to not being really noticed. Almost feels like people like me don't exist.

[@alexgrim5165]

Mood!! As a bi enbe, I get the same experience; except with the addition that daring to say I exist means I'm "just lying for attention". More than anything, I want cartoons& books to have aro ace, bi, an' nonbinary characters who explicitly state their orientations & gender; it hurts to not get this without writing a fanfic 'bout it myself.

[@superstarultra28]

Well, Todd from Bojack Horseman is asexual and they give him the proper attention.

[@IsThisUsernameAvailable]

@@superstarultra28 Todd from BoJack is an amazing asexual character, I love him so so much! 😭

[@irlivlis]

@@superstarultra28 I absolutely loved Todd. He was an amazing character and a joy for me to see every second he's on screen

[@declan2775]

Hello fellow ace. You know what hurts the most? Is when some character has to prove or become human, say like a robot or something, it's always "love" (often romantic) that defines their humanity and not their billion other qualities.

[@inamelzvoice]

I remember when I saw your video about basic necessity for gay rep. At the time, like all creator when he's confronted with a lack in his writing, I was like "yeah, that's great, but is it that always necessary? I mean, I'm from the lgbta community, it's not like I can be wrong". And then I took the time to think about it. And again. And again. And again. And finally realise that, oh shit, I needed to change something. Lots of things. And that's why I fricking love your work, because yeah, it's not easy to see our own fault right in the face, especially when at the begining you don't realize the problem in them in the first place. But every month or so, I realise how much I'm growing, and it's a lot because of you, and I like that a simple discussion about different ship in different shows can make me remember that. So yeah, I had to rewrite from the start one of my project because at the time I wanted a "subtle relationship between the princess and her warrior maiden" and now they just kiss right at the first scene because f*ck it, I want them already in a relationship with all the cute fluff xD

[@darinae34]

Aww I thought we would get some Kipo too. Oh well, amazing work as always Lily !

[@foxyfrolic]

THE VINDICATION I FELT when you talked about DT... I've been told that I should like DT by binary folk and it pisses me off bc yeah shapeshifting is dope but Id also like to be validated by the shows I watch just fckn once that its not inhuman or nefarious to be nonbinary. I would also like you to know that I sustained 50+ psychic damage from "gay Reylo" even though you're absolutely right

[@Katsby83]

2:33 I love this scale but I’m curious who 2nd worst is.

[@LilianOrchard]

Gary. A character on Friends. He was a cop who used his resources to stalk and intimidate Phoebe, who he was dating

[@ebonyblack4563]

"He's a-" Happens, even for me as an NB. The years of social training sometimes catch me off guard and the wrong pronoun slips out, so I appreciate that self catch tacked on at the very end.

[@insecuresession1638]

That awkward moment when Attack on junior high have more lesbian girlfriend energy and screentime than steven universe-

[@royalarts8481]

I notice that in cartoons from back then they actually would say the word “gay”. Now they just say “I like girls” or “I like boys”.

[@kittyazure]

Obsidian is what every other cartoon trying to do gay rep shouldve been

[@TalaPedro]

As a 'enemies to lovers' shipper who understands that my tendency for ships that romanticizes violence, I get it. I understand and I respect that danger and those should stay fictional and should be used as topics of discussing consent and personal self defense and self esteem. I love the scraps I get, mostly because I usually enjoy the fanfiction much more than the original product. REYLO WAS A MISTAKE. I love the ship, and enjoy reading the fanfiction, but I wish it wasn't canon because the shipper's could've would've and have done better. We didn't need canon. I like catradora, but I feel like she, Catra, needed a bigger redemption arc for their relationship to be more trusting. Not just flashbacks to how much they meant to each other growing up.

[@sdpearshaped831]

I love getting your thoughts on these sorts of things Lily, probably my favourite content of yours focuses on this and I've taken a lot of it on board.

[@WubbaDubba198]

"Dumb Bitch Juice" is the best thing to ever exist, Really helps with putting stupid people in their place.

[@MommaDusk]

She-ra makes me want to create a couple that starts as enemies but quickly goes into a heated romance where they both actively defend each other and work towards being better people while also making sure the relationship isn't toxic.

[@Charlie-up8hy]

As someone who is ace (not aro) I won't accept something as good ace or ace/aro representation until the character in question explicitly says that they do not feel those kind of attractions (but not the "I'm waiting for the right person" crap).

[@barbaraw1245]

Todd from Bojack Horseman-there ya go

[@diip-ali1228]

Jughead No. 4 from the 2015 Archie comics not only made Jughead canonically aro/ace, but also had him and other characters EXPLICITLY state it. And its not just some throwaway line either, Jughead's asexuality comes up multiple times so there's never anything that would suggest that he's anything but ace. Its just such a shame that few people know about this becasue Riverdale completely wrote out Jughead being aro/ace(though considering this is the same show that reduced Kevin into just another "gay best friend" i can at least applaud it for having a consistent track record)

[@ratboy2]

i got weirdly excited when you talked about catradora being abusive. so many people, even those i expected to see it for what it is, just didn’t. it’s been hailed as this sweet, healthy, good relationship and great gay representation and it’s such bullshit. i already have a lot of respect for you and your thoughts, but even more so now. it’s genuinely grating to hear people talk about c/a in such a positive light all the time. so, thanks

[@elyssame6952]

When Catra opened the portal into another dimention while Adora was tied And forced to watch but than later blamed that this was her fault by Catra. I... just. This reminded me of Gothel killing Eugene and blaming Rapunzel when SHE was tied up. Thankfully Adora just does not takes her shit And fights back. The season ends on her giving Catra the most threatening look and Catra frightend disappearing into shadows. Back than I though Wow Stevenson you are aware that that relationship was unhealthy and this means you won't make it canon. JUST KIDDING It was seen as another part of the will they won't they dance

[@diip-ali1228]

Ah yes, my favorite trope: gaslighting your love interest How romantic...

[@orangeslash1667]

@@diip-ali1228 I wonder if the reason for very small Gay rep is because most of these shows are kid shows, so any full gay romance will cause the soccer moms to demand censorship????

[@just_that_fan7796]

Off note, Catra would’ve been the next Azula if they didn’t redeemed her

[@Hambolove16]

Catra could have been a way better Azula which is freaking terrifying.

[@arose92795]

Lily, all your videos about the lack of proper LGBTA representation in the media inspired me to dig up one of my old short stories and turn it into a full blown novel about a lesbian couple trying to get married and their moms getting in the way. And it's so much fun! So... I'm very greatful that you are so vocal about this issue. Now my favorite story I ever wrote is a full blown novel concept, and I'm almost half way done with the rough draft! I had family tell me I should make my main character's fiance a man. But like... That gets rid of the conflict and main plot thread. Because their moms are homophobic. They wouldn't have a problem with the relationship if it were a straight couple.

[@mysticwayfinder3578]

Gotta say, I remember randomly choosing a few episodes of She-Ra to watch, and there is actually a scene (though perhaps "A few frames of a scene" is a better way to describe it) where Glimmer cuddles up to Adora when they accidentally fall asleep in a hot tub, and fuck, that would have been SO MUCH MORE ADORABLE! Oh, and of what I saw of Catra, I distinctly recall her being so angry at Adora that she seems to ripping the entire world apart.

[@toastanimation6597]

I started reading lgbtq fiction recently, like Princess of Dorsa and Of Fire and Stars, even Girls of Paper and Fire which was all amazing. But most notably, they’re light years ahead of on screen representation, and I mean absolute light years. So now everything else seems so piss poor when I can turn around and have two girls kissing and go on dates and cuddle and just be explicitly gay just halfway through the first books of WHOLE SERIES, WHILE being the main protagonists.

[@nicolersands]

I know this is all fantasy but I think you might like The Sidekick Squad series. I’m more into fantasy than superhero stuff myself but that series is like injecting pure sugar into your veins when it comes to lgbt rep (at least for me)

[@elsiemae5182]

Another thing to add to requirements for LGBT rep don’t have your LGBT characters be in relationships that aren’t clear to even avid watchers. Like I watched TLOK and Voltron closely and I didn’t even know that their gay relationships were even romantic and it’s sad and pathetic. Like Shiro and Adam are such an awful cop out and the fact that they tried to fix that by having him marry some random guy in the epilogue was not good.

[@LilianOrchard]

That was covered in Explicit Language

[@2016QuincySoulz]

In 6teen there was also a gay cowboy that bet on Jonesy in a "date auction" that was clearly interested in going on a date and wasn't doing it as a joke. He was also a side character with a veeeeery minimal impact on the show.

[@nicolersands]

It was always REALLY weird to me how vague and subtextual and kind of icky (DT) all the rep in SheRa was until the last minute of the last episode, when Noelle Stevenson was one of the creators of the comic Lumberjanes, where almost 100% of the cast is explicitly LGBT, including TWO major trans characters, both human, one the LITERAL MAIN CHARACTER. Actually, I don’t think that there’s any explicit romance in the series UNLESS it’s LGBTA. Like, if Noelle can do THAT in comic form YEARS before SheRa, than WHY did SheRa turn out like it did?

[@jacobb4795]

I want to see Luz and Amity get together

[@charlotterouge8107]

I want to see Luz and Amity BE together

[@morgana7842]

I want to see Liz and Amity DATE

[@Charolette21]

She’s already in intense gay panic mode, holding out for them being a thing would be immensely painful for the viewers.

[@jacobb4795]

@@Charolette21 definitely

[@kappa_studios]

Do I have news for you-

[@Armaggedon185]

It’s morbidly amusing to think that any of this is pushing the envelope.

[@LemonLoserLover]

I wish shera ended their arcs like this: we understand an each others trauma and how it affected us and our relationship, and even tho we are ok we shouldt be friends anymore and move on. Thats a much better and imtresting ending that enemenies to lovers

[@IsThisUsernameAvailable]

Yeah exactly! That's how it should have ended, but She Ra was just Catra's show as she is Noelle Stevenson's fav character, She Ra was never meant to be Adora's story, more like Catra outshining Adora and that is just sad

[@dawnagnew4568]

@@IsThisUsernameAvailable I never felt like Catra outshined Adora at any point in the show, the two of them were always the other side of the same coin, and both had their moments, good and bad. Adora was very inwardly self-destructive, and Catra was very outwardly self-destructive. And they ended up on opposing sides, having to fight against the person that they loved so much, which only made them both even more miserable and less stable. Do I think the last season, and the forgiveness of Catra despite her extreme actions was a bit rushed? Yeah, I do. But I don't think it was wrong for them to take that route. Catra is a tragic character, blinded by pain and hate and fear, which is something that can happen to people in real life when their whole world falls apart. It can set you down the wrong path, but the message is you don't have to follow that path forever. You can always be better, and take responsibility for your actions. And I personally enjoy that approach with Catra, instead of having her imprisoned or killed off or exiled. The show still ended on a happy note, and that's also something nice. No "kill off your gays" trope, just everyone being happy at the end.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@thelastcrow5660 I wonder if the reason for very small Gay rep is because most of these shows are kid shows, so any full gay romance will cause the soccer moms to demand censorship????

[@penn_]

I'm really happy that you cover nonbinary rep. Too many people kinda ignore it because they don't understand nonbinary people or something? Even the nonbinary community sometimes doesn't recognize problematic things as problematic, so I really appreciate you clearly pointing out good and bad representation. Wish there were more people like you

[@charlotterouge8107]

I remember seeing Double Trouble for the first time and then thinking "wow nonbinary people get worse rep than I thought" nonbinary people really deserve better rep

[@AngelicRamen]

I'll just mention that the writers did want Asami and Korra to kiss at the end, but Daddy Nickolodeon said no, they couldn't do that. Holding hands was literally all they were allowed to do. The comics are openly very gay and even feature Korra's supportive parents.

[@wrecktangle6679]

11:08 " It's in the name, 'Net-tossa"... I toss nets."

[@kittyazure]

I'm a bit sad instead of Willow x Luz we got Luz x Amity- i love lumity ! but Willow and Luz were just so cute together !! I also see some people shipping Luz x Willow x Amity which i love

[@aitipsea3909]

12:58 Oh that phrase, giving me lovely flashbacks of trying to beat the ice witch during Battle of Dazar'alor for that one mount I never got

[@spiralgraves7108]

lily, have you seen any of kipo and the age of the wonderbeasts? a main character says he's gay in the first season, gets a crush and boyfriend in the second, and spends the whole last season being cute and gay with him, even getting a last episode timeskip where they run a business together as a couple.

[@Naoise012]

As an extremely fluid person the enby shape-shifting will always be a personal favorite as the ability to alcustom tailor my physical appearance to match my state of mind would be perfect for me but I've always recognized that it's no where near all enby ideals so I'd greatly prefer there to be a non shape-shifter example. Not to mention that if a character is supposed to be fluid and not just the specific enby that's co.fortable taking on any and all or no masculine in feminine traits then they should have a much less consistent appearance. Rather than a completely androgynous base for they should frequently appear in various masculine or feminine appearances of an androgynous base form just so we know it's the same character.

[@Pick_kles]

2:49 Wait they don't kiss? I always thought this scene ended with then kissing...

[@Alo-gp7mk]

I was not expecting to see the puppet blink. I thought I was seeing things the first time

[@emma_nutella58]

I wish we could get a LGBTQIA+ couple or characters not as background characters or not last minute coming out but throughout the show we know and it’s treated normally because the second we are given crumbs we all jump on it like it’s the second coming of Christ

[@lordsalty2060]

Soooooo ahhhhhhhh...... owl house is like close to A now right? Like at least a b, b+ range

[@LilianOrchard]

A

[@lordsalty2060]

@@LilianOrchard you love to see it

[@gamepopper101]

Makes me glad Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts actually went far with LGBT rep, with Benson being one of the main human characters, directly said he was gay in Season 1 and gets in a relationship with another human boy that was positive and supportive. Not sure if there were any issues with it, aside from it taking the entirety of Season 2 for Benson and Troy to get together, and could have done with more chemistry in Season 3.

[@mauriceisaac3646]

Personally, I found it a little rushed as Benson immediately fell for the first other human boy he saw, who just so happened to be gay too and started being into him just one episode after they met.

[@gamepopper101]

@@mauriceisaac3646 Yeah, I can see that part as being rushed, but after that, it took a full season for them to get together. Come to think of it, it might have taken most of Season 3 for them to go on a date...

[@mauriceisaac3646]

@@gamepopper101 I’m saying it didn’t have a good setup.

[@genieglasslamp5028]

@@mauriceisaac3646 I think that's just due to how alot of relationships are written in cartoons. I dont think theres anyhting rushed about it.

[@TheDoggoPearl]

@@mauriceisaac3646 Tbh I kinda gave it a pass since Benson probably hasn't seen very many humans so seeing that many people in general together would make it seem overwhelming/intense and considering them being teens. So if anything the rush crush makes sense and it then it actually evolved into a true crush/relationship.

[@bag.of.bones.]

catradora stans would say it was only abusive from s1-4 and then say it wasnt rushed bc it was always planned 🤨🤨

[@Keperik]

I wonder how you would rate Bojack Horseman here. As far as i can remember they made a few episodes about one main character being asexual. But i don't know if they where a good represantation.

[@barbaraw1245]

Todd was freaking great representation. He's the reason so many people learned asexuality was even a thing cause the show was so popular

[@thiagoalbornoz5062]

@@eduardopantoja9115 Also Todd is fucking amazing in general

[@paleconfidant380]

I grew up in a very conservative household and because of that many of these shows are nostalgic for me and helped me get to where I am now. I know not all of them are perfect shows and in some cases are not good period due to doing the bare minimum. But I find it hard to appreciate the message and critical thinking behind your content when the tone of your work feels like you have a vendetta against anyone who has even the slightest positive experience with these shows. At times it even comes across as if you are doing this just to satisfy the viewers who are still so stepped in negativity that they require a militant voice of revolution in order to feel complete.

[@Charlie-up8hy]

I don't think she has a vendatta, she just wants people to demand more, better representation. If we keep being satisfied with what we get now then things will never improve, and we deserve good romance stories too. Also her final, definitive tone is one of the things that many people like about her, it's part of the presentation. If you listen to stream videos she sounds different.

[@AJJ129]

I feel called out. I'm out here enjoying my scraps because I'm used to expecting nothing. I like some of these shows and we just tearing them apart. I know like intellectually we deserve more than scraps but my heart doesn't understand.

[@mj91212]

I agree with your assessment, here’s to hoping the owl house doesn’t drop the ball.

[@dorsab8627]

Im just here to see lily drag catradora cause of how abusive it was and i was in desperate need for someone to call it out on a video. Thank you lily, youre my hero now.

[@warlockd]

Don't get me started on Kora. The WHOLE reason I found you was because I was just pissed off at Kora and wanted an echo chamber. It really started with the wheelchair, I thought "Oh god what's going to happen...oh..nothing? She is just grumpy now?" That kiss came out of NO where. What kind of couple don't even hold hands! Ok, stopping the rant. For She-ra might of been saved if they were in a relationship before she became She-ra and Catra had to grow as a person to figure out why it failed. I mean it could of worked as Catra is an "alien" They have this thing on cartoons to never show "blood" with blood being defined as coming from "humans" I think that's why corps don't mind so much having LGBT aliens.

[@Plumgoblin]

lily, as someone who has had experience with toxic relationships & trauma/made some really valuable points in this video about catradora, have you put out an opinion video on the toxicity of adora and catra's relationship? i have a TON of opinions about how the relationship was actually a really horrible idea & was really damaging to s5 catra in particular... but i've rarely seen people talk about it (mayb that's just me)!

[@hollisss3409]

thank you so so much for making these videos! I find them so interesting and well explained that I've become such a big fan of yours! glass of water is now my favorite series from you! you made me realize and look into many things that I would usually not notice when watching a cartoon! your critical eye is amazing lily, keep up the good work! :D

[@hannareynolds5262]

hey lily might i ask your new grade for lumity now that the shows over?

[@LilianOrchard]

B+

[@ShrimpG16]

Imma start calling catradora Gaylo from now on thx

[@thereisnofood2008]

the "rep" for steven universe...i could write two essays on how much they fucked that all up

[@veronicaagnes]

I really love your videos, and the insight you bring.

[@sailorsagittarius8526]

I just think fusion is more like Yokai Watch and Dragonball than about relationship. I actually want to make gay characters as main characters but also exploring the feelings of love and relationship in general

[@AngelDust441]

Also Net girl literally exists to be hypnotized and being a strong enemy. Found it funny how we get her to say darling when trying to kill her spouse.

[@salmonator4877]

I laughed way too much at gaylo.

[@ryzhik9608]

How do you think the "enemy -> lover" dynamic can be done well?

[@kitasukirimi988]

I think the only proper way would be a well-done "enemies to rivals to acquaintances to friends to love interests to lovers" if at all

[@anddatkat796]

Another comment summarised it pretty well: "Enemy to lover can work, but only if it's paced correctly (enemies -> allies -> friends -> lovers, or something similar) and most importantly _they can't be enemies and lovers at the same time_ ." That's the main problem with many enemies to lovers scenarios in cartoons; they are in a romantic relationship, but they treat eachother like they're barely past the enemy stage of their relationship, creating a *very* toxic relationship, which is a perfect opportunity for homophobes to take it as an example and claim that all LGBTA relationships are toxic and/or harmful.

[@DeanS946]

Watch Buffy. They key thing is the show doesn't shy away from the fact that Spike was/is abusive. He has to literally go and find a way to atone for his shitty actions, and even then, he has to work to gain Buffy's respect. AND STILL, she doesn't just fall in love with him, their relationship is complicated and they don't have the same stakes in it. All the side characters call out the shittiness of it, Buffy herself knows its wrong and only goes through with it it deal with her trauma. She doesn't try to fix him, he realises he has to do that himself.

[@jupiterjam9776]

Thank you for this

[@jimfishnteeth5217]

THANK YOU for bringing up the Catra and Adora issues. I find the ship really abusive and it reminds me a lot of a toxic relationship I was in. I identify a lot with Adora, and then seeing her wind up with someone who was abusive to her (and that reminds me a lot of that toxic person) and everyone treating it as if it's a work of art was wild af. I'm just really glad that I'm not the only one with these opinions.

[@littlelotus4572]

Wait so hang on Catra and Adora have the same mother that being Shadow weaver, so does that technically make them sisters or am I just smoking something?

[@yeoldelurking]

She’s not a biological mother to either of them, just a maternal figure :)

[@universesavior554]

@@yeoldelurking it kinda makes them adopted sisters but whatever I still ship it

[@jspark8990]

For Steven universe you know it’s bad when a fan comic is more LGBTQ than the main show just by having Steven call himself pan and in that one he’s white diamond and still only dates connie If you can even call it dating since this is at around the point period of shows up and commit only just starts learning to fight Also it’s antumblr W&A comic not even self contained

[@jessiep9913]

People really thought that Tonks is LGBTIA coded!?! Who are those people and are they still saying that now since she who shall be named is a dedicated tr*nsphobe?

[@thomasraines1396]

Yes there are still people to this day who thinks Tonk’s was LGBTIA coded.

[@jessiep9913]

@@thomasraines1396 What?!? Were they thinking about the same Harry Potter? I can't.

[@thomasraines1396]

@@jessiep9913 I don’t know where they got it from, it’s amazing what people can come up with but also terrifying.