The History and Meaning of the Enneagram

Pam Frost from TruthXChange explains the History and Meaning of the Enneagram from the Enneagram's origins to its current popular usage. Should Christians use the Enneagram? Find out!
#enneagram #christianityenneagram #enneagramorigin
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[@betty8173]

Wow, that was an indepth look! I thought I knew some of the history, but she had tons more information! Thank you, Jon, I still don't think folks believe how dangerous this can be. Appreciate you being the watchman on the wall, God bless you.

[@mikeyonce2323]

Wow, this was a deep dive. She knows her stuff, very informative! Her closing comments using scripture CRUSHES the ignorance and evil of the enneagram paradigm. Wonderful!

[@jessibridges]

Agreed. This was the most informative discussion on the Enneagram I’ve ever listened to.

[@teafortwo9307]

This woman is almost as sharp as Marcia Montenegro ❤ I liked her 30 seconds into the interview. Marcia's got tons of stuff but its great to hear that there are others who have studied this on their own.

[@teafortwo9307]

Okb12 minutes in, this is crazy, when she described the impersonal one as in Brahamin so reminded me of contemplative prayer and buddhism... where the object in Buddhism is oneness with a form of a god... I just never put this back into the enneagram. I have thought for a while though that it was a gateway into contemplative mysticism.

[@mamainchristjesusofthechri9886]

I learned so much as a new believer from Marcia Montenegro!

[@jimflys2]

Seriously, when you don't know the gospel, you can't teach it. When the church doesn't teach the gospel, you are left with occultism nonsense and worship of self.

[@ozdoublelife]

Boom!!!

[@gregwilliams9]

In my IFB university our counseling professor made us take the enneagram. I also served under 2 SBC pastors who had us fill out enneagrams. 1 wasn't official, but a "which animal are you?" which was super similar to the enneagrams I took.

[@4shehadeh]

Thank you for for such a rich & informative interview.

[@user-kn2zy5oh8w]

Most helpful. Thanks for the teamwork and for being faithful to the Word and Jesus.

[@TheSMEAC]

Bringing Pam in for this discussion was a great treat in further arming folks to disarm those who’d even begin the attempt of bringing this to the shores of their church. Jon, I really could see you and Pam doing maybe at least a quarterly edition of this discussion format/topic as an ongoing prophylactic to these dangerous lies. Maybe follow ups to mail/questions you receive, clarifications prompted by comments or emergent moves in bigeva, and the like. Thoughts? There’s no king but Christ!

[@toolegittoquit_001]

You have spoiled us with your well-organized, concise well-thought out argumentation. 😏

[@jessibridges]

My pastor refers to yoga as Hindu evangelism. It would seem that Enneagram is new age/panantheism/occult evangelism.

[@jamiesomma2566]

Great stuff, she’s done a ton of research. The only points I could add from my research is that the original book on enneagram personalities was by Patrick ao’Leary “The Enneagram: A Journey of Self Discovery” in 1984 the content of which was taught to him by Bob Ochs SJ in Chicago after Bob’s sabbatical at the Esalen commune in Malibu studying under Claudio Naranjo. Also, The claim by Richard Rohr of the source being a Catholic monk named Ramon Lull (see Ars Magna) seems to have some merit, but he was influenced by the Sufi horoscopic to Zarija and made claims that all knowledge can be described and discerned by the diagram which is identical to the enneagram. Sounded to me like Gurdjieff’s claim and like a pursuit of knowledge of good and evil from oneself like the Fall in Genesis 3.

[@longstreet2740]

My advice is to RUN from ALL forms of mysticism , mind altering experiences.

[@charlottenee8018]

When our grandson, in his freshman year, was exposed to the Enneagram at Liberty University to sensitize students to the different personnalities of thier fellow students. I viewed one of their presentations to the entire student body at a Convocation and I was shocked. From that point on, I never respected Liberty University. Their Student Pastor, responsible for this false demonic teaching has left the university and I hope it's never used again. Appreciate your conversations--I've learned alot listening to your programs.

[@darrellpowell4331]

Charlotte do you believe it is still being taught there?

[@charlottenee8018]

@@darrellpowell4331 Thank Darrell, that's very dissapointing news!

[@charlottenee8018]

@@darrellpowell4331 Asked my grandson that very question and he indicated LU stopped teaching it after a couple of years--apparently some folks brought a law suit against LU.

[@micahlantz905]

THE 4TH WAY?! Isn't Tim Keller talking about a 4TH wayism now with the "biblical critical theory " book?

[@TheWallwatchman]

Wow! This is the same path I took as well, learning about the ennangram. Emergent movement years ago bringing this, false teaching, mysticism etc into my church at the time. It started at our church with a book study with erwin mcmanus' book, and then rob bell, catholic monk stuff, etc. And we were a sbc church. No longer attend there. They didn't want to hear the warnings at the time.

[@gregmorgan3508]

It would be nice have a definition of what the word means before going off the deep end. The this is the second podcast of yours that had done this. I am thinking not everyone knows these topics from the get go.

[@Mary_Kraensel]

Good grief!! Where is people's discernment?!

[@heathersheartco]

You absolutely need to interview Marcia Montenegro about this. She’s done interviews with Alisa Childers, Melissa Dougherty and Doreen Virtue. There are people at my church who are in to this. It’s sad.

[@Yesica1993]

It's strange that I'd never even heard of it until Christian KZbin channels mentioned it. I didn't even know how to pronounce it. Wow, it is so disturbing that this was being taught to pastors! Just a few moments into hearing her describe it, I knew this is not biblical. If little ol', non biblical scholar me can instantly see it, how could PASTORS not see it? How could they sit there and listen to that stuff?!

[@kkgoucher9135]

The majority of Christians are biblically illiterate. Most pastors use the Bible to teach and preach few actually teach the Bible line by line word by word.

[@Yesica1993]

@@dissidentleathermonster I find that horrifying. Maybe I am just naive. I didn't grow up going to church. I didn't get saved until I was 18.

[@ellencooney5563]

This lady explaining it seems still a bit under the influence, she is still promoting ... turn away now! In Jesus name lady.

[@graceyan7390]

The pineal gland thing might be related to Descartes... According to him, that is where the soul of the person dwells. I think there were similar things said in Antiquity as well.

[@jeffreyprato]

Please don’t let your guests get away with using the “judeo-Christian” construct! We destroyed that like ten years ago. All who are saved are Christians, BC or AD.

[@spiphywarfare6018]

Eaten by the moon. Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism will lead you to ultimate unity. I knew the E was whack, but wow, thank you for this episode, brother. Will be sharing it often.

[@KarinAllison]

When she introduced the "you become food for the moon" belief - Jon's face is PRICELESS. 😆😆😆(20 min mark)

[@PsychoBible]

It really ticks me off how many Christian counselors have fallen for this Enneagram garbage. A have tons of clients who've been duped into it by their churches, and I think I'm one of the few counselors they could see who would actually warn them against it.

[@HotelCharliHill]

The mccords are NOT believers if they are that easily deceived. Paul warns professing believers can be led astray just as Eve was led astray.

[@mamainchristjesusofthechri9886]

I was wondering too how she can keep insisting they’re saved.

[@helenpeddycord2241]

They are promoters of the enneagram!! She’s very deceived claiming they are Christian. (Please see my comment directed to Jon)🙏🏻

[@mamainchristjesusofthechri9886]

@@helenpeddycord2241 it must have been deleted because I don’t see it

[@helenpeddycord2241]

@@mamainchristjesusofthechri9886 - Humm, thanks for letting me know. Unfortunately, some channels automatically delete any links in comments.

[@helenpeddycord2241]

@@pardonedrebel8415 - Thank you for your response. I agree 100% that many Believers are stretching out too far in the name of charitably. Sadly, when lured by the enemy into little things, he doesn’t give up there. The speaker seems to have educated herself well into the history of the Enneagram and made a factual statement “knowing”the McCords are Biblical Believers. The McCords in fact have a million dollar business with a min of 6-7 employees who promote the Enneagram! Those 2 “facts” she stated are DISTINCT opposing views. Marcia Montenegro has an article on her website, Christian Answers for The New Age, that has been confirmed. I believe being charitable comes with a responsibility of being very cautious at the same time. Again, thank you for your response. God bless🙏🏻

[@Wood424]

Thank you Jon, I didn't know about any of this stuff! Occultic nonsense, I have a hard time believing Christian buy into this garbage.

[@helenpeddycord2241]

Unfortunately, many churches promote it with AND without researching ahead of time. Very sad.

[@ellencooney5563]

So do government funded career centers

[@marcyoverby3817]

THIS IS SO DANGEROUS..THIS STUFF HAS BEEN CREEPING INTO THE CHURCHS A LONG TIME AGO..WE GOT OUT OF THE MOVEMENT A LONG TIME AGO. I THINK CHRISTIAN DON'T READ THE WORD OF GOD THEMSELVES BUT JUST GO ALONG WHAT THE PASTORS SAY..I REMEMBER WHEN YOKA CAME INTO CHURCHES AND EVEN POLE DANCING. YES EVEN GOLD DUST FALLING FROM HEAVEN.. WE LEFT IN THE MIDDLE 80S. NOW LOOK WERE WE ARE TODAY. THANKS FOR POSTING JON.

[@Hopeapotheke]

I’m so glad I could never understand any of the stuff she’s reading off. I had tried reading things like this and I’m so glad I was too dumb to understand it because I’m quite sure I’d of fell for it 😮

[@helenpeddycord2241]

Perhaps it was the Holy Spirit guarding you🙏🏻

[@Hopeapotheke]

@@helenpeddycord2241 oh most definitely!!

[@KarinAllison]

The desert fathers is all people know and quote when they defend the Enneagram. I'm also puzzled by how fervently they defend this, if it's "just a personality test", why be so wrapped up in it you put your number in your bio and reference it for every activity or decision you make and talk about? I had listened to a lot of and read a lot Marcia Montenegro's research on this for the last 2 years but this lady here brought even more to light, making me think of the Mission Impossible quote my husband and I tend to use in cases like this: Relax Luther, it's much worse.

[@jamesirvin7799]

Thanks Jon.

[@carriersailor2474]

Very glad to see comments below mine that criticize this Enneagram nonsense, and that at least Liberty got rid of it. Keep up the good work, "Convos that Matter" guy.

[@alexgodeye3031]

Everybody uses the enneagram for psychological job interviews, it's so annoying.

[@helenpeddycord2241]

Many perspective employees are now refusing to take part in this occultism!

[@theelizabethan1]

Has Myers-Briggs now been pretty much abandoned?

[@melissaleach1953]

58:14 You’re so right in that this resembles Scientology which includes “body thetans” and multiple lives over a billion years of existence. The devil is very good at repackaging and marketing.

[@sheilasmith7779]

"Understanding," anything changes nothing, including personality. An action changes. If I am an introvert and realize that I am lonely because of that, then what? Do I need to change something in my behavior so that I am less lonely? Does that require some action on my part? Yes. Enneogram. What nonsense. Just a new trend to distract humans from living an authentic, meaningful life. A fad.

[@ozdoublelife]

Love this.

[@leonpope861]

So do you think Tim Keller will become Fourth Way 🧩 🤭 🤫 🙄 🤔 😉 🧠

[@hokieham]

Russell Moore has already found it!………..

[@ArtEdWithJulieM]

What’s your opinion of a secular business personality test called Culture Index being used in the hiring practices of an evangelical church? As in an online version being used to screen applicants at the very beginning BEFORE an interview and ending the application process if they deem the results as being incompatible with the traits they have attributed to the particular position and the church in general.

[@Yesica1993]

Automatic writing?! WHY are Christians anywhere near this?!

[@Cletus_the_Elder]

Criticism of Enneagram seems to have dissipated over the past couple of years while more Christian pastors embrace it as part of discipleship training or "spiritual formation" at their churches. Even conservative-leaning Presbyterian churches have taken Enneagram into the practices of the church. It is a horror. Really, it was like a horror movie reveal when I found out that my own Presbyterian church was using it as a primary tool by the pastor of spiritual formation, with no objection from the other pastors, or elders, or deacons. It felt like I discovered my pastors were pod people. Or to use a more recent cinematic reference, it seemed the leaders of my church were in the sunken place. I could not wrap my head around how enthusiastic the embrace was, of a practice rooted so clearly in the occult. It was shocking to see elders and deacons seemingly care not a bit about the introduction of the demonic into their church. When I mentioned it to other members of the congregation, I was made to feel backward and dogmatic. I quietly left that church, but Enneagram has already spread to other churches that I have considered joining.

[@brianjones2384]

Pam really explains this deception very clearly. This is a tricky subject to expose for me. But easy to stay away from since it originated from automatic writing

[@JR-rs5qs]

We can be so sure that other people are believers (the Mccords) until they're not and we're proven wrong. We can't be 100% sure about any one else's salvation.

[@orbyfan]

Tyndale University in Toronto, which claims to be Christian, is so deep into contemplative spirituality that it offers certificates in the enneagram. Cru (the former Campus Crusade for Christ), at the notorious staff conference in 2019 where critical race theory was promoted, also had sessions promoting the enneagram and contemplative spirituality. The summation just past the 1 hour-8 minute park about belief that practicing the enneagram will bring peace on Earth reminds me of the quote from the 1959 comedy album "How to Speak Hip": "...and then we'll get, you know, world peace." kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5eQaqVqjKuDe9k

[@edeancozzens3833]

God does have systems of 3 and 7 all through the scriptures, but the Evil One always comes to obscure and usurp.

[@AlwaysBeMixing]

Take any non divisible number of 7. Divide it by 7. The remainder will always, always exhibit the same pattern. At some point 142857 will emerge and repeat. This is the movement WITHIN the symbol.

[@mamainchristjesusofthechri9886]

Jesus come get us 🩸🎁⬆️

[@christiesmith3335]

What Christian would set through those classes?

[@theelizabethan1]

Ungrounded, novice Christians....

[@ricksanborn6667]

Groovy, baby!

[@darrellpowell4331]

Modern gnostics. Satan's bag of tricks.

[@marymack1]

Check the fruit.

[@kathyforest2617]

The law of three is seen in the flag of Israel

[@houseofosborne1173]

Wild, and you're right, it sounds like Scientology lol

[@jimflys2]

I want to eat the moon because it is cheese 🧀.

[@Hopeapotheke]

😂😂😂😂

[@nathanphillipsgo]

Amazing

[@marcyoverby3817]

STILL CALL IT DIVIN ABANDONMENT OF GOD.,,THANKS JON

[@CaliforniaForever]

References in show notes, please. Otherwise it’s just talking.

[@berglen100]

So how would the life 33 years old can have this statement possible John 21:24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. The only way that statement couldn't be Son seen has pattern that only taught what Father told the Son to say what sprouted dead seed so any term called son of man can only understand flesh is called dead mind still dead so why did Saul who read and study Torah to become graduate of law Paul called dung compared to Grace and mercy free gift and faith that means MIND same one Son called Jesus (David) only Son of God\Father\Lord so those stories thought secular history Saul mind did, Paul after having abstains woke dead seed in his mind is why he told you sons of man your body of flesh natural mind inherits nothing, Philp 2:5Let this MIND MIND MiIND be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. So what is blasphemy to you is others actions still just spouted or good flesh Actors you might try and defeat grace and mercy for all man is your challenge to your version what is necessary for free gift is a mirror with fuzzy sightings.

[@bethwillis3845]

Your face is hilarious, Jon!!!

[@ricksanborn6667]

What man doesn't want to hear that?

[@bethwillis3845]

@Comfort and Joy yes, he is! I should have been clearer. His expression during the "moon eating people" was what I found funny. It was a reflection of my own expression at that moment.

[@jammystarfish]

This is unreal

[@martinwilliams9866]

Gurdjieff wasn't an Occultist although he certainly studied it & had nothing to do with practicing Spiritualism or Spiritism, why do Christians lie so much, it's either that or their research is just plain sloppy, it would be more accurate to call him an Esotericist. Another lie, show me where Gurdjieff states the OCCULT Law of three, you can't because he didn't! Terms he used for God were "Common Father Creator", "Endlessness" & "Absolute", he most certainly did teach the distinction of God & the creation, hence the Ray of Creation, in line with Neo-Platonic emanationism. "He (Gurdjieff) didn't do a lot a writing", no only four books the second consisting of 1143 pages, but hey who's counting? It's great isn't it, when people laugh at their own inaccuracies? The proto-soul being eaten by the Moon is a bit way out there, a bit like the virgin birth I'd say. So many distortions, but then that's to be expected of Christians interpretating non-Christian beliefs, they do it about almost everything, the blind leading the blind, confirmational biase abounds, no respect for the truth. Ouspensky experimented with Nitrous Oxide & hashish, Gurdjieff certainly knew about mind-altering drugs. p.s. I know where Gurdjieff got the enneagram from, a French book on the Zohar by S. Karppe & "Isis Unveiled" by Blavatsky. The Moon eating thing come from Plutarch.

[@CaliforniaForever]

Where are the resources she cites? Talking and talking without pointing to references is weak.

[@petergunn1701]

She cited several books throughout her presentation.

[@CaliforniaForever]

@@petergunn1701 I didn’t say she didn’t talk about any but we need the references. Do you have them?

[@theelizabethan1]

Re: Georgi I. Gurdjieff and his ideas, there is a lot here on KZbin.