THE HISTORY OF JACK KIRBY IS THE HISTORY OF COMICS

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ENGLENTINE & CHEF JACK : We have daily videos about comic books. Reviews or discussions about themes or even what is going on in the industry. We have been collecting comics for 40 years and love to share our love for them as well as frustration with the creators behind them sometime.

[@tektoniks_architects]

Stan was a salesman, and a good one. The greatest character Stan Lee ever created was Stan Lee.

[@Tellin08]

I've been researching Jack Kirby and I've come to the conclusion that he was the man behind Marvel and not Stan but even I couldn't have come up with this a amazing statement and roast. Well done.

[@ComicBookGuy420]

That amazing salesman still had a hand in creating some of the biggest characters in comic book history Jack Kirby is extremely underrated, But Stan deserves his share of the credit too Together the two revolutionized the industry

[@thatguyronwaiters6485]

Roris jack Kirby and bill finger don’t get enough credit but Stan is still the man he made it all possible and put his money behind it he is marvel but jack is the guy who made the character’s look cool love both equally there is no such thing as 1 it’s always more no one can do it themselves

[@davidlindsay9564]

But even Stan Lee couldn't have created Sran Lee without Jack, etc.

[@ClanHellbone]

@@davidlindsay9564 he can rob a stripper from her comic character

[@grantbaugh2773]

I agree with how you presented the issues regarding "Stan Lee vs. Jack Kirby". Jack Kirby deserves more recognition, but that doesn't mean Stan Lee deserves less.

[@ne0664]

Same

[@angelmanfredy]

+1

[@MutethatBozo]

Jack Kirby inspired me to draw. Stan Lee inspired me to avoid polyester suits. "Nuff said.

[@MichaelKurse]

😆😆😆😆

[@purplecomicboy]

the name spiderman is long and convoluted, and goes back years before the simon/Kirby thing. This is well documented. Read one of Joe Simon's books. Steve Ditko created the costume, the webbing, and the skinny teenager aspects of the character. Kirby was first assigned the task of designing the costume. It was a muscular adult in a costume with a cape and a holster with a gun. Steve insisted on redoing it when the character was shifted to him. Steve Ditko mostly created spiderman.

[@jamescarnevale3312]

Jack Kirby created Marvel. Stan Lee marketed what Jack created.

[@tonysienzant6717]

The Ditko switch on Spider-man has been well researched & answered. Stan Lee always maintained that Kirby's rendition of Spider-man was too 'heroic' looking & 'muscular.' After all, he was supposed to be a teen. And that's why he gave the book to Ditko. Ditko's recollection gives us this: Kirby dropped off about 6 pages of his Spider-man story. Lee called in Ditko to ink them, just like he inked Kirby's cover. After seeing the pages, Ditko told Stan that this origin story bore too much resemblance to another Kirby creation (a failed creation for another company). I think it was called "The Fly." In Kirby's origin, not only was the Spider-man suit different (more like Captain America) but the teen turned into the adult hero Spider-man with the help of a neighborhood scientist, similar to "Shazam" & Billy Batson turning into the adult hero Captain Marvel. When Stan learned of this, he asked Ditko to take the Spider-man concept & "see what he can do with it." Stan Lee, as a company man, was likely fearing some sort of lawsuit if Marvel used a character too much like another popular character by another company, as well. Ditko returned to his art studio which he shared with another artist at the time, Eric Stanton, a fetish artist working on adult soft-porn strips. As Ditko created his new version of a teen superhero, Stanton was on-hand to toss out ideas. It is said Stanton gave Ditko the idea of having Spidey's webs come out directly from his hands or wrists. Not sure if it was Ditko who decided that the web shooter would be a mechanical device, using a cartridge, a nozzle & a press button to activate it, or if that was Stanton's idea as well. Ditko often inked some of Stanton's work because they were friends. It is said that some of the 'bondage' devices that appeared in Doctor Strange in later issues were influenced by Stanton's pictorializations of women in dominance/submission scenes. By issue #18, Stan & Steve were barely speaking to each other. Ditko would plan the stories on his own, plot them out, to create long-running themes from issues prior. He made sure to give Peter Parker ample 'screen time' (which always bugged Stan because he wanted to see Spider-man more). Ditko understood that everything that was transpiring in Spider-man's exploits were directly related to the teen Parker. That's why we see a three issue run wherein Spidey gives up super-heroing in order to take care of his Aunt May who was at death's door. Stan wrote something like, "You'll either love it or hate it, but you won't forget it," thereby hedging his bets with his readers that this plot line would be favorable to them. After months of trying to get Stan to put Ditko's name on the credits as the plotter, Stan finally gave in & began crediting him. He was also quoted in a fanzine as saying that Steve "thinks he's a genius" & won't let anyone else work on his Spider-man stories. He said, "he inks his own drawings too." He related that he'll let it go because sales were good & will only step in if sales start to slip. The reality of the situation was that Steve Ditko was writing the stories in pictures panel to panel & Stan was only adding the narration & dialogue later, to an already finished story that he had nothing to do with. That's why around issue #30, Stan got some of the story wrong & had some 'bad guy' characters as part of the Cat Burglar's 'gang' (the Cat Burglar was a lowly & lone worker) when Ditko was foreshadowing these bad guys for a three issue run afterwards as working for Dr. Octopus. Although Lee's writing style was a big feature of the popularity of Spider-man, it was the stories themselves that were unique & captivating & followed logically in terms of how various characters would react. Ditko made J. Jonah Jameson an integral part of the book as well, when he could have been a once & done minor character in the overall scheme of things. He made sure to ground Parker's world in realistic teen settings & dispensed with alien outer space themes & mystical themes (barring Spidey's appearance in Doctor Strange Annual #2). For example, Stan wanted the Green Goblin to be a mystical being that was conjured up from an Egyptian tomb. Instead, Ditko made the Goblin's powers to be all mechanically created & science based. Ditko said he took over 'writing' the Spider-man saga from about issue #14, the issue that the Green Goblin first appeared. When Ditko departed, Stan took over writing the stories & did the unthinkable: he made Peter Parker POPULAR with two gals hanging around him & even gave him a motorcycle for more 'cool' factor. John Romita's Madison Avenue type renditions of people were glamorous, smiling, beautiful...gone was that Ditko flair for intense facial expressions that telegraphed a character's emotional state perfectly. Jameson, under Romita's pencils, always had the exact same scowl on his face despite whatever was happening in the plot. Contrast that with Ditko's various facial expressions of Jameson, whether smugness, fear, anger, embarrassment, conniving... the list goes on & on. Ditko, more than anyone else, was the sole true artist responsible for the success of Spider-man. It's too bad that artist-created characters were not then the property of the artists themselves, like transpired later in the 1970s & 1980s. Otherwise, I'm certain that Spider-man would have been considered Ditko's property. And if not Spider-man himself, then all the villains Ditko created specifically for him to battle. Similarly, Jack Kirby should have been the rightful owner of the character called the Silver Surfer, since he created him without any input from Stan at all. Kirby soured on Marvel when they asked him to do a deposition in the case of Simon suing Marvel over the character of Captain America & their continuing use of him in 1940s war sagas. Kirby towed the company line & said that both he & Simon understood they were artists as "work for hire" & didn't expect any royalties or ownership of the character they both created. For this, Kirby was promised a sum of $$$ from Marvel, but it never materialized. He probably regretted giving away some of his best characters to Marvel. After he was quietly dismissed from any Silver Surfer involvement, HE STOPPED CREATING NEW CHARACTERS FOR MARVEL & always relied upon ones that were already part of the Marvel canon. Writer Roy Thomas did the same thing: instead of creating new characters that he wouldn't own, he would simply revitalize ones from the Golden Age, like The Vision. Now you know the rest of the story 🙂

[@wk3820]

People forget that Kirby didn't begin in the silver age. He was a legit star in the golden age on DC's #3 selling characters after Superman and Batman, the Boy Commandos. Plus Sandman, the Newsboy Legion, Manhunter and of course Captain America. He didn't achieve greatness at Marvel; he only regained it. Kirby getting blacklisted after his first silver-age success with the Challengers was the best thing ever to happen to Stan Lee. That bad land deal with a DC editor is what built Marvel.

[@paulakroy2635]

also all of the romance genre of comic

[@narimandubash8869]

Every time I visit a bookshop I take a quick look at the latest graphic novels and am almost always struck by the same thought - "Someone should show these new artists some Jack kirby art and then they might understand the proper way to portray power, dynamic movement and sequential art". He remains the greatest American comic-book storyteller there ever was or will be.

[@daveassanowicz186]

August is Jack Kirby Month - I Love Comics ❤️

[@ericcoyle3520]

Also Stan Lee's style of writing is nothing like Kirby's when you read comics we know were written wholly by Kirby. I say that as a huge Kirby fan. It's interesting how much of Kirby's ideas are in the Snyderverse films; boom tubes, mother boxes, Darkseid, Granny Goodness, etc, etc,etc. He's called King Kirby for a reason.

[@casard5235]

Nice balance for Kirby and Lee. I seem to be seeing things more clearly and evenly.

[@TalkingPulpPress]

Jack is back!

[@anthonybranch4712]

Thank you for this well-researched and even-handed examination of Jack's career, and the Lee/Kirby feud.

[@ericbreen4340]

Thank you for putting this out again .I enjoyed it every bit as much the second time around .And it was good to hear Chef Jack again .

[@greenliongirl07]

I remember watching the episode of TMNT that was made in memory of him. Wonder what him and Stan Lee are talking about.

[@mesolithicman164]

Kirby was an ideas machine but he needed the right kind of editor to rein him in and keep the show on the road. Post Marvel Kirby is proof of this, lots of ideas but not the levels of success he experienced at Marvel working with Stan Lee.

[@AliFareedMC]

come on, Funky Flashman story in Mister Miracle was Great

[@seanhall6317]

This is a fair point, but so long as we realise Stan was an Editor and not the creator. He might have had some input in some issues but ultimately 90% of the 60s stuff he "wrote" he just changed the dialogue of.

[@mesolithicman164]

@@seanhall6317 Slightly more nuanced. He would co plot stories with the artists and allow them free rein to tell the story visually. For an artist that gives them much more leeway. Plus Stan's dialog was a key element of the Marvel house style. Peter Parker's teen angst, Thor's grandiosity, the Surfer's alienation, all distinct voices created by Stan, it's easy to overlook the things he added to create the Marvel identity. It's been very fashionable to find ways of diminishing what he did and he probably did over-claim his role, but he was responsible for the things that attracted the snipers like Alan Moore into the world of superheroes. Obviously Moore won't admit this but it seems self evident. He sees himself as a 'serious' writer but instead of writing novels he has this love hate attitude to what some might term Juvenalia.

[@seanhall6317]

@@mesolithicman164 Stan said in many interviews he'd go "Oh I think the villain this issue should be Doctor Doom" and then let Jack or Steve go ahead with the plot, and he'd edit later. That's not co-writing that's editing. Sure, his dialogue's better, but he didn't create these characters. Peter being a teenager is down to Steve who was way more into the idea of alienation. Thor was also largely down to Jack, the Shakespearean dialogue of the character feels like its a rip from New Gods. The Surfer he has admitted was down to Jack solely. The man said in writing Doctor Strange was Ditko's idea, then later said some bogus about it coming from seeing stage magicians as a kid, because as we all know Doctor Strange looks like a typical stage magician. Alan is not a "sniper" when it comes to Stan, he personally befriended Jack, saw his original art and realised that the real imagination had been ripped off. God forbid a creative has empathy for being ripped off by a corporate bigwig.

[@ikillomega]

This was very well-made. Thank you for sharing.

[@MichaelKurse]

I love that he took over Jimmy Olsen to prove a point.

[@GolDRoger-zd3wm]

Good video man, All hail King Jack Kirby

[@drmidnight2419]

There was an obscure horror movie named Spider island that Jack Kirby or Ditko saw in the 50s. Some of the ideas for Spiderman, possibility. Smiley was a wise business man.

[@johngeverett]

Great content and a fair presentation of the facts!

[@darrylwiggins1156]

Tek you are absolutely correct.stan lee had 2 great talents.his association with jack kirby and promotion of himself.

[@paulocosta4744]

Very cool to bring back Chef Jack's videos so we can see them in one big sitting. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the two reasons that allowed Jack Kirby to go back to Marvel and have enough freedom to introduce his concepts and for Stan Lee to devise a whole new brand identity around them. Number 1: A certain Monroe Froehlich Jr. is the man responsible for the Marvel Universe coming into being, by shutting down the Atlas distribution company in 1953 and signing a contract with American News just before they shut down their whole operation, while Jack Liebowitz's IND limited Martin Goodman's monthly output to 8 monthly magazines. Number 2: Stan Lee's most creative and prolific artist during the 1950s, Joe Maneely, died in a train-related accident in 1958, just a few short weeks before Kirby came back to Marvel after being blacklisted from DC.

[@junior10460]

I think Jack Kirby should have got credit for the creation of every character that he belonged to comic book what can I say about Stan Lee he was just an opportunist and the truth is he saw opportunity to take credit for everything. If I ever create something I make sure that it's lockdown with copyright.

[@rasheedknox2140]

Thanks for the research!!

[@jmen4ever257]

the 25th anniversary of his passing today.If he has managed to hold on for another week or two,he would have been able to finish phantom force two. You can see where his last page was.The finished Art T. work really stank.the book died with him.

[@Jay-my7ko]

Fantastic documentary. Nice work!

[@doombotspod]

You did a great job of providing ideas on both sides of the Stan-and-Jack spectrum. I think, like in most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[@richardbennett6237]

Thanks for this … it fills in a lot of gaps for me

[@squidfartz]

That was fantastic. An absolutely humble and matter of fact approach to a legend. Nicely done. Keep up the good work.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

Thank you

[@ericcoyle3520]

Stan Lee wrote the original issues of The Silver Surfer, some of the greatest comics ever written in my view. I took more from that than the bible when I was a boy about how to think about the world around me and how doing the right thing is key to a better world.

[@cyberpunkholiday]

I think you did a fantastic job with this and earned a sub. There was one thing you forgot to mention and that is that Vince Colletta would ruin Jack Kirbys art in Fourth World by not inking every part of it. He would purposely do less work on Jacks pencils so he could appear to work fast, get more work and make more money. He was a cheap skate inker that way. So, that might be the highest point of why Fourth World suffered the most out of all of Jacks work.

[@gregorblack5557]

I feel I may have seen this before & yet I'm going to watch some now. As I age, history of comics really interest me.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

I have received a few messages that people couldn't find all of the chapters. So I did a little pasting and editing to make it one video

[@gregorblack5557]

I really dig the video. Great work Chef Jack & E. Very interesting & lot of people didn't know the extent of creativity of the exquisite Mr Kirby.

[@flipflopmcgurt3403]

Man, that was fantastic. Well written.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

i'm not an artist but he should have got paid for creating the stories because that is very difficult and that's what beings the money in. The art does to but he was creating that 2.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

I'm sure since his death in heaven he's figured the 4th world completely and not only is it completely finished but all of the forgotten plot holes have been filled! the sad thing is when you show some of his Marvel art when you stated he wanted to do this at Marvel, a lot of his best art that would have been in the 4th World and made for amazing characters and settings is with Marvel.

[@rickytoddbotelho9555]

Excellent job 👏

[@kingmuizz708]

The king

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

The 4th World is what Marvel is doing now but Marvel is putting stories never meant to be put togther, together, the 4th World is a single universe within D.C. Comics. Its sad it was never completed to his liking because it could have been a true wonder of litrature!

[@jeffreyohler2599]

Wow,as an avid documentary watcher I have to admit that this was a excellent piece! Like,no Love how you took the optimists approach & simply presented the facts without discrediting Kirby or Lee. Not receiving a one sided view is sadly becoming more rare these days. Glad to see a content provider trying to be fair. Thanks for that!!!✌😎🖖

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

This was done back when my brother was with the channel. It was what we wanted to do. I think he nailed it. Thank you

[@jeffreyohler2599]

@@EnglentineILovecomics lol Oh no, he didn't just nail it. He straight 'Bambino' blasted it out of the Stadium!!! ✌😎🖖

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

If i could ask Kirby 1 thing i would ask him why he never tried to reluanch a more focused thought out Blue Bolt because the character looks cool as hell

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

I did a Blue Volt video when I first started. It was the first Simon & Kirby

[@dweoresmoves7756]

WELL DONE!!!!

[@kevinlkoehler]

How awesome it would been to be there when Stan Lee jumped on the couch - maybe most of the issues derived from upper management golf hacks, rip-off competition, shake downs, publisher and distributor under-reporting, and industry nuance. Tough times for sure. Wish I knew more - even the eras status quo.

[@BattlegroundVictory]

Well done

[@gurugeorge]

Wonderful stuff, thanks for the digging and efforts! I always think of Kirby as being possibly America's greatest "naïve" artist - IOW, his work is so good, it's pretty much fine art in the naïve category. Ditko roughly similar, though his output wasn't as vast. As an aside, while I agree Lee is dissed a bit too much by some, and deserves great credit as an entrepreneur and promoter, and for a few important creative decisions here and there, I don't think the X-Men is one of these last. The basic X-Men concept (psychologically fragile, fractious team of misfits led by big-brained guy in wheelchair) seems to me to be an obvious rip-off of DC's Doom Patrol, which had come out just before X-Men. On the other hand, that kind of, ahem, cross-fertilization was always common in the comics, and after all the mutant and psi twists (which are presumably down to Lee) had a lot of mileage that enabled the X-Men to thrive in a way that the Doom Patrol, sadly, didn't (and also, the Doom Patrol series was conceived as a limited run story anyway, with a beginning, middle and end). Personally, though, the Doom Patrol was perhaps my favourite superhero team as a kid, and I really enjoyed Grant Morrison's wild and whacky rework in the 80s. Looking forward to the tv show!

[@GrumpyOldGuyPlaysGames]

Lee always admitted that the rough idea of "a group of youths with strange powers led by an older mentor" was taken from Doom Patrol. It was the "mutants hate as a stand-in for racism" that was original to him. He also came up with the ideas for all the characters, as well.

[@gurugeorge]

@@GrumpyOldGuyPlaysGames *Lee always admitted* I didn't know that, and it's not what I've read (I've read the plagiarism was denied by Marvel). But yeah, I can accept that the mutant idea was Lee's, and that the characters were his - and they were good ideas.

[@MrDman21]

Jack Kirby is the 🐐

[@halfmadjesus]

Quality didn't publish Blue Beetle after Fox. You're thinking of Charlton.

[@jeffreyohler2599]

⬅To your point 53:30 I love Batman. I am a comic fan who doesn't read comics(typically don't have the patience). Yet I love to watch animation and live action renditions.

[@licmir3663]

Why did you use John Buscema’s art of Silver Surfer attacking Thor instead of one by Kirby, if the latter was the focus of the video?

[@sixdollarman1362]

I was wondering that myself... Seems like the author knows the difference, so I'm curious to see the response!

[@shanelorrison5224]

I love that John Buscema cover. Probably my favorite cover ever.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

Brain fart

[@sixdollarman1362]

That is probably the only excuse that makes sense!

[@licmir3663]

I LOVE COMICS it’s a fair reason

[@tonysienzant6717]

WHERE did you find that Amazing Fantasy cover of Spider-man? The original comic cover didn't look like THAT !

[@michaelrapson]

That was pretty brave to land on the beach on D Day. A third of them were killed.

[@Iggyshere]

I agree with you.

[@tonysienzant6717]

Kirby created "The Eternals" AFTER his position at DC & his 4th World Series. You made it sound like the other way around...

[@henrycuevas2834]

Sorry.... Fantastic Four #1 was NOT published in November. The cover date for the FF was THREE months in advance of the actual release date. Hence, the FF should have first hit the stands in August 1961 if the cover date said ' NOV".

[@tedroyer9391]

Great films! Well done. FYI, Kirby did The Eternals after he left DC and went back to Marvel. But thank you for such a great series.

[@anthonybranch4712]

Thanks, I was gonna point out that little error, too. It is perhaps thematically similar to vfc the Fourth World stuff, but definitely created LATER, after the mid-'70s return to Marvel.

[@daleanderson1727]

Wait, Stan Lee isn't the creative god that made all comics everything? No... say it isn't so... ;)

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

He was, he just had a lot of talented help

[@davidgusquiloor2665]

Kirby deserves more recognition. I think we can all agree on that. But Stan the Man Lee made the industry what it is, he found how to make things work in such and organic way and became rich while doing it. Using his fame to make comics more popular thus providing more loyal costumers and sales. I always admire those that can make wonders with and idea, sell it to the public, leave it in the minds and hearts of others in such a way that makes an industry become more than just a product provider. Even if they do it in a dickish way. But that's just me.

[@davidlindsay9564]

Being a great promoter is all fine. But he is a credit hog. He has gotten worse since Jack died. Stan is not a visionary creator. He was a hack writer who lucked into working with people and he was a part of the chemistry, but it could have been done without him.

[@dytakeda]

He's been called King for a long time.

[@davidlindsay9564]

@@dytakeda Among those in the know. But there aren't enough in the know.

[@RSEFX]

HOW ABOUT doing an issue-by-issue history of the KIRBY version of THE CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN---especially the Showcase issues? (Showcase 11 has to be one of the greatest hero/sci-fi comic stories ever in the 50's-through end of 60's in terms of adventure scenarios, visual inventiveness and scope. Some of Kirby's finest deeply detailed epic art appears in another book-length CHALLENGERS adventures, THE WIZARD OF TIME in issue 4. Showcase 12 is also epic and presages his later "monster" comics for Atlas/Marvel's pre-hero era. (Of course, after Kirby left/abandoned(?) the COTU that group was never remotely the same. Thanks for the video and all the background. I have to say that Lee was personally very engaging and fun to interact with, but, then, I only had a couple lunches with him at New World, trying to develop projects. I DO think you give the "battle of opinions" a fair assessment, though I lean far more in the Kirby direction: I imagine that Kirby without Lee would have done great on his own if he'd never met Lee, but don't think the reverse would be true.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

I would love to do some sort of focus on the challengers of the unknown.

[@georgewilliams4258]

I look at it this way Kirby is the most recognizable artist of Marvel.If Jack hadn't worked there Marvel probably would have crashed and burned.It wouldn't have mattered if Stan Lee was writing Shakespeare kids bought comics for the pictures not the writing.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

I always believed the art got them in the door, the writing kept them there

[@user-gg4jz3lm2t]

I totally agree brother that was a good take on the whole thing my personal take is that it's pretty much exactly like Steve Jobs and the woz I feel bad for a Kirby and didko but you can't blame it all on Stan the man I hate the way it all went down but I am so so glad that we had them all did they were great solo but when they were together it was like magic and DC totally blew it when they had Kirby fans wanted to see Kirby's take on Superman and other characters but DC wanted him to draw Superman the way everybody else there did so they would go behind Kirby and draw Superman's face the way they wanted to what a waste

[@petermj1098]

Kirby made the art for Stan the same way David Fincher made the Social Network for Aaron Sorkin. Ditko made the art for Stan the same way Danny Boyle made the Steve Jobs for Aaron Sorkin. Different people making the styles but same person making the substance.

[@A1Authority]

After hearing about this preson did this and this person did that, so many times now, the over all impression is that it took both to cement a true competitor for DC. Kirby while with great imagination, was never an artist I liked that much growing up. He was more of an impressionist... impressing upon us the epicness of each moment. His drawings are almoat sybolic like tattoo art. ---- Later, it seemed he was given all kinds of opportunities to follow his heart, but he really did not embrace the superhero world with his personal persuits. It was God this and Dimensions that. It's as if he wanted more credit for writing and the art, such as it is, as a means to get the idea on paper. Perhaps he should have pursued writing, alone, at times.

[@helious5056]

17:20 what about captain flash or even Astro boy

[@mikefiftynine]

It wasn't lack of sales. The sales numbers came out later, and they weren't that bad.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

This was originally published half a decade ago. Where did we get it wrong legitimately curious. Not confrontational

[@mikefiftynine]

@@EnglentineILovecomics sure, no problem. A decade, or so, later DC reviewed the sales stats for the Fourth World titles, and found they were not bad at all. Mark Evanier, and others, have discussed this over the years. Therefore, the idea that bad sales got the books canceled is a myth.

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

I have often said No matter how much you know on a subject the comment section will prove smarter than you from time to time. We missed a point. Thanks for pointing it out.

[@Arnsteel634]

I think others like Gardner Fox were just as influential

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

I would agree

[@davidgraham8299]

Certainly, but Gardner, like Kirby and Ditko didn't go out on lecture tours and speaking engagements. Stan became the face of the comics industry, whereas Jack, Steve and the rest of the artists rarely spoke or promoted themselves at all. That's not Stan's fault.

[@RockandrollNegro]

Have to disagree with your comment about the 1958 Green Arrow appearances being the first Silver Age comics, pre-dating the Flash. Like Wonder Womam, Batman and Superman, Green Arrow (and Aquaman and Superboy) had an unbroken run from the Golden Age to Silver Age. They weren't new iterations of GA characters like The Flash was.

[@adamx6000]

The more bad things I hear about Lee, the more I respect him because it all ends up unfounded

[@drmidnight2419]

Smiley got you too.

[@adamx6000]

@@drmidnight2419 he was a showman and good with people but everything he said held water despite at times the weight was carried more on other peoples backs

[@drmidnight2419]

@@adamx6000 he was a professional con-man. Stan " the con-man" Lee Aka Smiley.

[@adamx6000]

@@drmidnight2419 but no one has been able to yet show me he was this con man. Every time someone tries to explain, it doesn’t hold up. Maybe I would feel different if I worked around him ???

[@drmidnight2419]

@@adamx6000 the artist who started image comics did, that's why they started image. Because they were all being ripped off by Smiley. But I guess your a sucker for Smiley.

[@TheDrigodamus]

As if artist get credit, now. Writers get top billing and that hasn’t changed since then… Stan was a genius and so was Kirby…it’s quarterbacks and linemen tho. The bandwagon just jumps to this conclusion but Lee put in work at Marvel before and after Kirby. Marvel owed Kirby, not Stan. Let these men rest. Crackle Excelsior!

[@EnglentineILovecomics]

There was a time at Marvel when artists were king

[@spidertown1]

the coal tiger ................................... oh dear

[@tonysienzant6717]

Fantastic Four is part of the Silver Age. You said "Golden Age...." Probably a simple mistake because you must know that already.

[@mattmurdock5665]

Thank you for impartial truth.

[@eligahboykinjr.4333]

Thought this was a great analysis of the synergetic relationship between Stan Lee and the bargain basement Picasso Jack Kirby and the snoring Salvador Dali Steve Ditko and other Comic Book creators worthy of note...

[@sinchman1]

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko are the true creators of marvels Universe...Stan Lee will always be a Fraud he did not want Jack and Steve to shine Stan wanted it all

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

So you're busy telling us Stan lee did most of the dialogue and plan the business for the comic book industry while Jack Kirby came up with the big Ideas story and costume design so both of their claims are kind of Right but half wrong

[@ComicBookGuy420]

I thought Stan did more of the characters and story and Kirby did some story and characters, but focused on the planning and the business

[@legendary3952]

Old School STFU It’s pathetic people like u who the world needs rid off Jack Kirby was the man behind marvel not stan

[@JeppeSeverin]

Regardless of what you can accuse Stan Lee of, it was mostly by Lee's ideas that Kirby rose to his fame. It was Stan's ideas that sparkled the genius of Kirby. He could't have done it without Lee imo. Not that Stan Lee wasn't the con-like look-at-me bigshot that took advantage of the talents in his staff. But I think that people who hates so much on Stan, claiming that he did "nothing", should recognize Stan for by far "creating" the King.

[@twinkieman237]

Stan lee created the characters, jack Kirby brought them to life. Neither of them were more important or better without the other

[@AliFareedMC]

Seriously? Stan lee didn't Create the characters alone, name other characters stan Lee created without Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, beside The Falcon, She Hulk and Ravage 2099 lol

[@twinkieman237]

@@AliFareedMC I didn’t say either of them did it alone. Read my whole comment before you rage out over it lol

[@DoppelgangerShockwave]

I'm sorry, but you haven't a single clue what you're talking about in terms of what Stan Lee did. Did Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and others create the overall stories, leading you from panel-to-panel with images? Yes, without a doubt, and even Lee himself has stated so. But the dialogue and captions are 100% Lee's. There are numerous penciled pages you can find online for comparison which show different dialogue, both in the margins and in the word balloons themselves, than what was put in the printed comics. The only one to catch Lee changing the dialogue was Steve Ditko, which caused a great strain on their relationship, because it is true that Kirby never read the finished product. Kirby had no time to. He was a workaholic and he barely had anytime to do much else but draw, eat, and sleep. He was working on 4 to 5 pages a day, 7 days a week. It's also why his work suffered at times as far as seeing mistakes, like un-level eyes for instance, because he'd draw as fast as he could and put it aside for the next piece. And yes, in the early days, Lee took far too much credit, but he did correct the history books many times over throughout the last 25 years after Kirby's death. One last bit of proof. There was a Captain America short story written for a Timely comic that Joe Simon gives 100% credit to Lee for. It's all in text. No art. It has all the same mannerisms, the same alliteration garble that you can easily find in the vast majority of Marvel comic books in the 1960's which have Lee's name on them as the story writer. And if you look at the comics that Kirby wrote for DC in the 1970's, most of the dialogue is very clunky and on the verge of nonsensical. You can say the same with Ditko. Far too wordy, far too preachy. Their dialogue dragged the stories they made without Lee's dialogue down. Lee was an upbeat person, and that's how he wrote. Without a doubt, without Kirby there is no Marvel Universe. But without Lee's words, the stories would've never sold.

[@JustinTyme33]

I couldn’t disagree with you more. Jack Kirby was a good artist who reliably met his deadlines. He spent his last decades as a jealous and ugly souled individual. He hated comic books and went so far as to discourage young artists from entering the business. He let his jealousy and inferiority complex blacken his soul and manifest into a hatred of comic books in general and Marvel in particular. Kirby had a very warped view of his work. His disregard of, and inability to, recognize the contribution of his teammates festered. He believed he was doing everything and deserved all the credit. He was delusional. Stan Lee was the voice of Marvel and it was Stan’s writing that turned the pictures Kirby drew into fleshed out characters people cared about. Stan’s voice was the voice of Marvel. Stan’s role was a more public role also. Stan was an essential component yet Kirby couldn’t acknowledge that at the same time that is exactly what he accused Stan of doing. Ie: not giving Kirby enough credit. It was self projection. Kirby went to DC and without Stan the books and characters were below middling. Stan lived to 94 going to comic cons celebrating comic books and meeting fans while Kirby hated comic books and tried to prevent young artists from drawing comic books. The industry that fed his family for decades he despised. Kirby died a mean jealous broken ingrate. Certainly not someone to aspire to.