The Incredibles - Ayn Rand and Objectivism | Renegade Cut

[@etanaedelman9011]

I think a better term for the philosophy of The Incredibles would be exceptionalist. The film posits that there are some people who are just inherently better than others and that that shouldn't change. It also implies that those exceptional people have a duty to help the less-exceptional. So it rejects selfishness, but implies that certain people should be the saviors of others. Which doesn't seem so bad until you remember about how historically "we're helping/saving/educating/bringing democracy to them" has been used to justify atrocities.

[@iblard]

It's better "Incrediblimism".

[@sjk7467]

@@iblard lol that’s a funny joke but exceptionalism is the commonly accepted term for this.

[@Sirzacharia]

I don’t think I disagree with you. But is it the correct term to use when doing a Randian study on this film?

[@MarilynMalkovich]

Thaaaaaat's capeshit!

[@r3fus32d13]

I think Incredibles are talking about aristocrats or high priests or competent societies that always had hierarchies and such in them. Without leaders we become the world of today, where most of us are kept ignorant and cannot even recognize wise leaders even when they're in front of us.

[@animeotaku307]

I think the line that destroys claims that the film is objectionist is one from Mirage. “Valuing life isn’t weakness. Disregarding life, throwing it away, is not strength.”

[@animeotaku307]

Also, while my viewpoint on the movie has changed thanks to this, I still wish that there were heroic characters who used technology as their powers. The only character who’s “power” lies in their intelligence and creativity is Edna Mode, and she’s support.

[@bird4816]

That's totally in-line with objectivism though.

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

@@bird4816 exactly

[@brettjohnson536]

@@bird4816Maybe in theory, certainly not in practise

[@DefinitelyNotAMachineCultist]

​@@brettjohnson536 _Maybe in theory, certainly not in practise?_ The entire point of the pearl clutching about the 'virtue' of selfishness by the old bat, was that by valuing your life as an end, in and of itself, whose highest purpose was not to be sacrificed for something else, you'd prevent yourself from being dragged into committing the kinds of atrocities that only an altruist could justify. It's in line with older ideas by people like Adam Smith, who believed that men inevitably did more good by pursuing their own interests, by serving others, than they ever did or could by doing things they 'believed' were in someone else's best interests. The industrial revolution, and many similar revolutions before and after it, were primarily achieved by men who did what was best for them. Child mortality rates, maximum lifespans, and maximum sustainable populations have gone up thanks to the 'selfish' deeds of a few. The other 'selfless revolutions' (besides the American one, also driven largely by greed like the above) inevitably resulted in mass starvation and death. You only need to look at the ideologies that dominated Germany, Japan, and China during World War II, and sometimes after it, to see why. It's not a coincidence that the worst degenerates of that war were among the most 'selfless'. People cannot value the lives of others if they cannot value their own.

[@TN1000th]

A problem I have with the Ayn Rand/Incredibles connection is that when you look at her philosophy and compare it to Syndrome, he is on almost every level what Ayn Rand considered the ideal human. He is a self made, super genius, industrialist who doesn't let other people impose their morality on him. Sure his goals are collective in nature, but if you view his technology as his product, and democratizing of superpowers his heroic intentions, then Syndrome is almost as good an Objectivist super-villian as Andrew Ryan.

[@MasterMind092]

p

[@Jew_Gi_Oh]

Andrew Ryan is pretty much a male version of Ayn Rand.

@@Jew_Gi_Oh You only have to take away 3 letters: ANDrew RYAN.

[@wpaunan]

yes! Also Mr Incredible's growth and change from being selfish to selflessness would run contrary to Randian ideology. Heroism also implies self sacrifice, empathy, and compassion and a drive to help someone suffering.

[@johnwayne6646]

@@wpaunan valuing ones family isn't selfless.

[@aredub1847]

to put it simply, its not objectivist propaganda, but it certainly has some objectivist themes.

[@Xarfax321]

I really feel that The Incredibles has a lot of things in common with Watchmen. Think about it: 1) Superheroes has been outlawed 2) There are still several heroes who are still fighting crime, even though they are not allowed to. 3) There is a superhero who is murdering other superheroes. 4) There is a giant squid-monster at the climax. (Granted, it's a robot in the Incredibles, but still).

[@francofernandes2006]

-Retro aesthetic that calls back to old school science fiction and pulp stories - Exceptional people being brought to a remote island by a mysterious benefactor and killed off - Main villain has Messiah complex - Old married couple composed of two former superheroes as metaphor for midlife-crisis Shit, it goes on and on

[@NobodyC13]

I feel like in the sea of debate between The Incredibles', and by extension Brad Bird's body of work having Objectivist themes, that a small detail gets lost in discussing Buddy/Syndrome's motivation and plan to elevate himself and others to superhuman: he still lead dozens of miserable superheroes to their deaths to develop his robot, fired missiles at Helen Parr's plane without hesitation even when she revealed through her distress call that her children are aboard, and when he executes his plan, it would cause untold damage and casualties. Then the robot grew beyond his control. So no matter how many times people debate Syndrome's motivation, his station in a world of superheroes, or Objectivist philosophy; he's still a murderer, a terrorist, and somebody who will stop at nothing to get what he wants or gets in his way.

[@thekaptain5445]

Well then that makes him a communist although that doesn't make the Incredibles objectivists. If anything considering the communistic aspect of Syndrome and the objectivist aspect of the insurance company manager, it seems like Bird is placing the Incredibles into the role of centrists. They have gifts, but they use them to help protect people.

[@aolson1111]

Also notable, he specifically says that when he puts his inventions on sale, he'll keep the best stuff for himself.

[@Bluecho4]

@@miskatonic_alumni Likely they don't. Many people who vehemently oppose Communism don't really understand the philosophy, or conflate it with Authoritarianism on a one-to-one basis.

[@theoriginalrandomman]

anyone over the age of 5 knows the ends don't justify the means, and that's the entire point. Making him a murderer allows them to make it unambiguously clear that he's supposed to be the bad guy. These tragic flaws aren't supposed to form a critique of his ideology, they're signifiers that exist to tell you who to root for or against.

[@robrotron2084]

None of the villains in the Incredibles are "looters" trying to steal from the heroes, it's literally the opposite. They don't want the heroes services at all. In Atlas Shrugged the objectivist heroes went on strike to show the looters how helpless they were without them. In The Incredibles the Supers were exiled. And Syndrome's tech wasn't like, stealing their powers to give to regular people. It was just replacing them.

[@jonathanredacted3245]

I used to think this for a while then I realized if it was actually objectivist then syndrome wouldn't be the victim

[@nichtoffentlich4142]

I think you mean wouldn't be the villain.

[@jonathanredacted3245]

nicht öffentlich I blame my phone's dictation feature which randomly replaces words that it's heard for no reason

[@Lupostehgreat]

True, because Syndrome's intellect is a natural ability and his decisions to enact a global crisis to demonstrate his powers and sell them to the world for monetary gain would be completely within the domain of "rational self-interest." After all, he is helping others only because he is helping himself, first, to money. The Incredibles comes off more as generic neo-liberalism about embracing the strengths that individuals possess and not holding them back. It's highly individualist, but not objectivist. I think the internet's assertions just became "common knowledge" and then people didn't question whether The Incredibles could actually be labeled obejectivist.

[@renegadecut9875]

I mean, in the end, she got money from the government too...

[@Lupostehgreat]

Jared Hite Rand didn't really care if you took money from the government. As long as you created the product or service for that the government bought, that was fine by her.

[@ShadowPa1adin]

Apparently Brad Bird became so irritated by people claiming that he was an Objectivist that he made the villain of the second movie an expy of Dagny Taggart from "Atlas Shrugged" (Ayn Rand's self-insert character from that book).

[@princekyle4132]

Source? I wanna check this out 👀

[@phastinemoon]

So -- TL:dr version is: The Incredibles has both objectivist and ANTI-objectivist themes and morals, and is more complex than one or the other. (Also, fun fact: Spell-check doesn't recognize objectivist as a word.)

[@bretsheeley4034]

Excellent analysis. In the end, I only see the Randian argument of the film only when you bring certain points to the extreme in the argument. The Superheroes in the film aren't being regulated. They are being outright banned. So, the film is pro-Randian in the lightest sense, but as soon as you start digging below surface level of Rand's philosophy of "Pro-Assholitarianism" (and this is coming from someone who identifies as overall moderately libertarian-leaning) the propaganda argument falls apart. People are not equal. People have special talents (developed or natural) where in various areas they are "better" than others (and who is better than who can switch based on the talent in question). Letting people use those abilities is a plus. Denying them that just to make everyone feel equal is a net loss for the individuals and society. BUT... that does not mean that someone who excels at something shouldn't be culpable for their actions or not kept within reasonable restrictions to prevent others from being wronged or exploited. Hell, in some cases oversight could lend to someone using their talents better in the long run. Also, wealth is a piss-poor way to judge who is better than who. There are way too many factors that can affect personal wealth beyond talent (which I'd say is a minor factor overall). Syndrome's plot to give everyone superpowers itself didn't seem bad to me either. It was more his execution of previous heroes and releasing the robot in the city just so he could be the hero in the limelight. Hell, technically Syndrome built himself up to be in charge of a multi-billion dollar business all for the point of putting himself on a pedestal. With his seeming plan to give people superpowers to benefit them, even his "altruism" was truly just something to serve his self-interests. Change the lens a little, and he becomes the Randian hero. Anywho, ending my rambling here before I muddle my intended meanings further. Hope everyone enjoys the sequel. :)

[@MRdaBakkle]

I agree. If you take a look at the plan of Syndrome, it really isn't to give powers to every person. That's one thing that he will do after he has had his fun saving the world from threats the first his creation. There could also be an argument made that Mr Incredible does not turn Buddy away at the start becuase he has no powers, but instead becuase he is a child and inexperienced. Mr Incredible enjoys the limelight at least a little, and his wording was bad. But if Buddy is the ubermensh of Rand an extremely smart person who deserves to be on top and he was denied that right.

[@shannonolivas9524]

I always hated those lines in The Incredibles. Everyone can be special without it meaning "nobody is special", as people can all be "special" in different ways. Such a childish way to see the world.

[@kbowman772]

Yeah, it's almost like the only two people who say it are a literal child and a man-child villain.

[@theoriginalrandomman]

@@kbowman772 when syndrome says the line, is that really what's being said? If that's the case, shouldn't the movie end with everyone becoming super and it not resulting in a loss of "superness" thus proving him wrong? You know, instead of it ending with the Incredibles resuming superhero work in a way that seems to reiterate how great it is that they're better than everyone else?

[@heeeyyy2947]

I just watched Incredibles 2 the other day and I actually felt like it also had some ideas in terms of "individuals should only look out for themselves, not depending on others" - very interesting stuff

[@callumasselstine9738]

I think the idea that the superheroes are “anti-objectivist” because they fight crime isn’t necessarily the case. If the name of the game in objectivism is your own interest, then there’s nothing wrong with being charitable or generous if it makes you happy, or is in your interest individually. If you really look through the objectivist lens, it entirely possible that superhero’s in the movie are doing what they do because they enjoy it, not out of altruistic desires.

[@sonicboy678]

But wouldn't that _still_ prove problematic for that "philosophy"?

[@objectivisimconcept]

@@sonicboy678how do you mean?

[@Plutoburns]

Yeah i think after tomorrow land its hard to say that brad bird isnt at least very familiar with randian writing. But Iron Giant is clearly about the red scare and The Incredibles is very much a family drama. Its got elements of objectivism (some inherent to being about superheros, some not) but to say thats what the film is ABOUT is stretching. I read Atlas Shrugged in early highschool and really liked it. And though my view of it has soured over time, i still took a very valuable lesson from it, one thoroughly unsupported by the text or its fans. I realized that helping other people was actually helping me. This idea that no one does anything for anyone and selfish is good, I managed to read as "I help other people because i expect those actions to benefit me". Its a simple reframing of altruism as roundabout selfishness but it was such a formative realization. And its a really great description of how a society should function: You help others because it will improve the society you live in and help you. Its so simple that all the so called "genius special people" in rands books never realize it.

[@AdrianArmbruster]

I mean, once you have a guy with a lot of muscles lifting up a sphere, the comparisons to Greek mythological figure Atlas making a nonchalant shoulder gesture become harder to dodge than to invoke. As for Ayn Rand, she was like 8 when commies took her family's small-middling dentistry practice, so she spent every year after that saying "actually the exact polar opposite of communism is always good all the time." That kind of exaggerated worldview is not uncommon among exiles or refugees from, well, basically any society.

[@MyPisceanNature]

I'd argue that Syndrome fits the objectivist philosophy far better than the Incredibles family.

[@ziggysaurusrex1581]

How? He’s nihilistic, jealous, and full of spite. He wants to be a superhero and Mr. Incredible’s sidekick. But when he’s denied that, he doesn’t use his intelligence to compete with the superheroes, or make something so revolutionary that it helps millions of people (and make him rich at the same time), he straight up kills several superheroes. He wants to make superhero tech available for everyone, because “if everyone’s super, no one will be”. This idea of taking away the things that make people unique individuals (in this case super powers) goes against objectivism. An objectivist would cherish uniqueness in between people, not force them to be alike. Syndrome is not a person who cherishes individuality and individual rights, freedom, peace and prosperity. He wants murder, power and most of all revenge.

[@JuanReyes-vb3tj]

​@@ziggysaurusrex1581 Well, Syndrome is not doing it for the goodness of his heart first of all, he says that he will only sell his inventions once he had fun, and not to be good, but as a way to get back at supers in general He is a capitalist, literaly in an island that he control. He is the smart rich guy. However, as you said, he is not completely objetivist, and that is because that is not the point, but I think he is a lot closer than the incredibles to that

I kinda dreaded this review because the aforementioned hot-takes kinda made sense (haven't seen the film in a while), but you were kinder to the film than I expected. A fair essay.

[@speedrobo99]

something that I always thought was odd was that Dash was doing track meets. If he wanted to play sports, why not basketball, football, baseball, or lacrosse? These all involve teamwork, strategy, and other skills beyond running fast.

[@plucas1]

Steve Ditko's efforts with The Question aside (which would be an idea for another video along these lines, hint hint), super-heroes in the modern definition of them would never be Objectivists. They defend and stick up for the common people, and put their own 'specialness' at continuous risk, even sacrificing it when necessary, for the good of the so-called 'looters.' Even the Punisher, one of the most Randian and right wing darling of modern superheroes, goes out of his way to avoid killing inoocents (or those he sees as innocent at least) I think Bird's interpretation of 'specialness' in the Incredibles didn't have a randian origin, but just happened to parallel it in some ways. In fact, it pretty such seems to stem almost exclusively from Bob's character and him being frustrated at being forced to not use the special powers that once allowed him to help people.

[@VicEntity]

Also his most famous creation is Spider-Man whose entire story is defined by the famous line "With great power, there must also come great responsibility" and let's face it,you can't be more altruistic than that. Oh the sweet, sweet irony.

[@gregcourtney7717]

@@VicEntity but Ditko wrote that with the help of others. His more blatantly objectivist heroes, like the Question mentioned above, were ones he did on his own. He's kinda got a reputation for needing a co-creator to rein in his weirder impulses. Heck you might know one parody of Mr. A, a objectivist hero like the Question created by Dikto: Rorschach. I don't know if RC has done a video on watchmen or Rorschach specifically (trying to play catch up on the last couple years of content right now). If he hasn't I'd recomend it.

[@thdenwheja756]

Another thing to point out about "Tomorrowland" - you mentioned at the beginning that the core premise was superficially similar to "Atlas Shrugged" in the sense that they both have an elitist paradise separate from the rest of humanity and its limitations, but it's safe to say that Tomorrowland is more of a deconstruction of that ideology than anything else. The Objectivism in that movie is pretty explicitly negative in the story's world, being the main reason why the villain does what he does and wants the rest of the world to die. In the end, the secrecy of Tomorrowland is even pulled back, with invites going out to people based on their passion more than their intelligence, class, or ethnic background. I know it's a little point in the context of the rest of the video. I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[@morganalabeille5004]

I honestly feel like the Spider-Man approach to superheroes is the best one. The idea that if you have the ability to be altruistic and help someone then you have the responsibility to. I also would be really interested in seeing a superhero movie that explores the idea that one person alone can't make that much of a difference without the help of others. Like maybe a hero who realized that advocating for better infrastructure is just as important as saving people from buildings that are already burning

[@The_Isaiahnator]

I really sympathize with your second paragraph. Superheroes are typically depicted as über-first responders whose only utility is in extreme life-or-death emergencies or who solve issues with their fists. This is compelling and dramatic, but it's the type of thing that can create power-fantasies and self-importance in the minds of young, impressionable audiences. It's good to lift people out of a crisis, but if that's you're default position in life, you're just living in survival mode (and very likely unable to help others outside of life-threatening situations). It's worth acknowledging that those who can maintain peaceful, stable environments are also heroic.

[@enrajbroin]

Funny thing that Spidey was co-created by a hardcore objectivist.

[@xxfalconarasxx5659]

Advocacy for better infrastructure is something that is explored in The Batman (2022).

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

Funnily enough Spider-Man was co-created by a hardcore objective (Dan Ditko) and yeah, you can tell in the early comics.

[@CodexEntry]

Really loving that you're injecting more of your humor and personality into your videos lately, keep up the great work Leon!

[@dosbibletech5266]

Wait, you people there's people that DON'T love The Iron Giant?

[@merrittanimation7721]

DOS Bibletech It is a dark world we live in

[@DoctorInk20]

The ultimate irony of "Randian Superhero Stories" (aside from missing that 'with great power comes great responsibility' is the foundational basis of the best superheroes) is hyper-rationalism. Superheroes are typically god-like beings with completely fantastical powers, i.e. something that doesn't gel with the "no gods or kings, only man" spiel.

[@bobnolin9155]

Thank you for confirming what I said to my wife when we first watched this years ago. She said, "Shut up and just enjoy the movie." She knew I was right.

[@stevenclubb7718]

Honestly, I think the themes in Bird's works are so muddled I don't think he has any philosophical underpinnings... save for being obsessed with the idea of Specialness. Tomorrowland is absolutely laughable as they assemble the best and brightest to make a brighter future... and not only fail to share with the world, but turn their own city into crap. Then at the end, they appear to have learned nothing as they headhunt the best and brightest at the expense of the world to start the cycle again.

[@miguelalmeida9771]

The small woman, Olga i think is her name, looks exactly like Ayn Rand

[@universalperson]

This is hilariously late but... I doubt many people know this, but in the first issue of Action Comics, the first appearence of Superman, on the VERY FIRST PAGE Superman breaks into a governor's house...to stop an innocent women from being executed. It's believed by some that Superman's creators, Siegel and Shuster, were aware of the Nitzchean ubermensch, a man who does not care for current morals but makes his own, and how other groups took the concept to mean that there were "superior" beings who had the right to impose thier will on "inferior" people. Superman, in this interpretation, was Siegel and Shuster's response - a man who is objectively physically superior, and is willing to do things like BREAK INTO A GOVERNOR'S MANSION, but he does it for the purpose of helping others. A ubermensch who protects the weak and tries to make a better world. This idea of a benevolent ubermensch is sort of baked into the Superhero genre, which is why the Incredibles can have the Objectivist themes of some people having innate superiority, while at the same time rejecting part of Objectivism by having the heroes embrace altruism. It all dates back to Superman.

[@TheStraatjutter]

syndrome kind of fits the etymology of villain, as in 'of the village'. The underclass who threathens 'noble' hero, who belongs in the aristocracy. It's a pattern that exists in literature beyond Rand.

[@ellie8272]

In retrospect, the theme most strongly conveyed is that we are tiny. That some people are superior, and those people alone know what's best for us.

[@sablecyan2517]

Really starting to dig the new intro. What's the music from?

[@renegadecut9875]

All my music comes from Epidemic Sound. I have a subscription which provides me with tracks for my videos.

[@sablecyan2517]

Well its really dang neat!

[@felipemldias]

It's called Awoken, by Purple Drive ; )

[@The5armdamput33]

When I first watched 'The Incredibles', I wondered to myself "Why is Syndrome the bad guy?"

[@morganrobinson8042]

Because he decided to be. He didn't want everyone to be special for the sake of it, he wanted to destroy a paradigm that didn't bend to his childish will. He had every chance in the world to be his universe's equivalent of Batman or Ironman as an adult. Instead he nursed his grudges and killed good people to create an unstoppable thread he had on a leash for his own aggrandizement. He never wanted to be a hero. He wanted glory. And when he was tired of it he would put the role of hero aside like a tiresome toy.

[@TheSugarRay]

Part 2 has the best title.

[@Irondrone4]

And this is where Bioshock came from. Atlas Shrugged, I mean, not the Incredibles...though you do get superpowers in Bioshock...hmm...

[@katmd03]

Very good video essay - you did a nice job dissecting Objectivism as it relates to the movie.

[@AnAverageGoblin]

a lot of the time people who make those "what ___ is really about" articles or videos usually seem to mean "it has themes of ___" but i'm just a peabrained person so who knows

[@raincrowlee]

It would be interesting if someone compared Randian ideology with the way action heroes have been portrayed in Western culture. It seems like they're drawing on some of the same themes (naturally gifted, perfect moral compass, and, as later deconstructionists point out, makes the world depend on them), but there are so many differences (especially when it comes to altruism and the superior individual sacrificing himself for the greater good).

[@NapkinsUnite]

Damn! This is by far your best analysis yet! How do you not have more subs?! Kepp up the good work :)

[@WikiSorcerer]

It's like secular Prosperity gospel. Not sure if replacing "God's will" with "inherent superiority" is any better though. They're both equally unquantifiable.

[@dougb70]

07:51 - although we all have to agree, Apple is not meeting the same standards now as it did under Jobs.

[@plcthelegacy4131]

I'd argue that superheros in general have an Objectivist undertone, but never really stray hard into the philosophy because, superheros do things in an altruist fashion. Saving the day and helping others without the prospects of wealth and fame as a driving force

[@djgamez1412]

To me saying that "The incredibles" is randian is like saying "X-men" is randian. They might have powers that outmatch non-supers but they don't see themselves as inherantly better except a megalomaniacal villain and a petulant child. Also I wouldn't call syndrome non-super either in the sense of comic villains or randian heros, there are no shortage of superheros/villians where their power is superior intelligence and/or money (batman, constantine, midnighter, Iron-man, Doc Oc, Forge, bruce banner, moon knight , kingpin) and that is usually a staple of randian heroes. Syndrome also fits when it comes to his company, he sells weapons to other countries with no discreation, sees his employees as expendable, plans to profit off his evil plan (he never said buying superpowers would be cheap, and he still doesn't relinquish his position of superiority because his devices have fail-safes that he controls

[@bobbie3713]

5:15 since Critical Race Theory became the boogyman of the Right early this year [2021] I went and looked into what it really was all that about and acording the The Experts™ it was an obscure discipline within another obscure discipline (critical legal studies) in legal philosophy, but aparently it wasnt THAT obscure because here it is in 2018 in a discussion film analysis

[@TheHeroOfMobius]

After watching this video, an idea comes to mind that Ready Player One could be analyzed from a Randian perspective... just with toxic geek culture instead of superpowers. Although, I'm sure there's a much more interesting read of the text of the book and the movie adaptation that I'm not thinking of.

[@rams3955]

+SmithDanigans[THoM] Ummmmmm Ready Player One is the direct opposite of Randian world views lol. For one Halliday creates the Oasis for the people and doesn't want to profit that greatly from it. He wants to create a world where rich and poor can come and play. Its twisted by the capitalist villains like Sorrento who only want to take the Oasis and twitst it into a profit generating machine with Ads, DLC, loot boxes etc etc. Sorrento would be an objectivist Hero while Wade is basically an Altruist who hunts for the Easter egg solely for his love of video games and in the end to keep the Oasis a place for all gamers rather than a profit generating machine. That said that movie is really not deep at all and just a fun popcorn OMG I GET THAT REFERENCE type movie haha.

[@animegodzillaworld]

I bet you will love my hero academia

[@josephaltarkawi3861]

It's hard talking about Ayan Rand's philosophy in anything especially since people have different interpretations on her philosophy.I did enjoy the video by the way.

[@YouCantEatTheGrass]

Your videos are great!

[@egirlSkeletor]

a very on the side comment but a really in depth discussion of the iron giant through a lefty lens would be absolutely worth a watch. its by far Bird's best work imo and possibly one of the best disney movies.

[@keilighthousediary]

Rand had unrealistic expectations. Humans are emotionally wired first and then BECOME "rational" over time. So we would have to learn how not to empathize for those who suffer ie. The poor.

[@evanthomass]

Ayn Rand makes me want to use swear words.

[@experiment0789]

When he first said parasite in this video, who else thought of Bioshock?

[@eloforfree]

I find the question wether you should or shouldnt analyse a movie under X lens very intresting and worth a video itself. One could argue, that if it is not a main theme, the analyzed topic might be underrepresented, missused to fit a plot, ... Then again it might show the directors/writers views eventhough it wasnt something he tried to concentrate on

[@Manugon]

I think the influence Watchmen had on the Incredibles should be noted. Alan Moore specifically said he wrote Watchmen in part as a criticism of Steve Ditko's (co-creator of Spider-Man and others) objectivist philosophies. Moore deconstructed superheroes and put them in the real world in a similar way the Incredibles did, except Moore's superheroes didn't have powers and were basically crazy vigilantes in suits (with the exception of Dr. Manhattan, who was fucked up in his own way). The Incredibles has a set up similar to Watchmen (retired golden age supes come back after being forced into retirement by the government because someone is killing them off, etc) but they kept the powers and the morality of classic superheroes. Maybe that's why it feels like a mishmash of ideas. Great video as always

[@ANTH0NY.VII.]

Ayn would hide a zombie bite

[@Luiz27M]

Thank you so much, what a great piece of work you've made (as in every video you upload).

[@flamestoyershadowkill6400]

Might try to make my own philosphy

[@SuperQuadocky]

One thing that comes to mind: its socially positive to 'play nice' with people or 'take it easy' on others if you are better at certain things than them.

[@lucideandre]

Also, you showed Superman. And Superman contrasts those randian ideas in a neat way. Setting aside what Snyder did to the character, Superman, while being more powerful, doesn’t view or treat his powers as something that make him more deserving than others of praise or power, but rather more responsible. He has the ability to do good, and therefore has to, and to fail to do so makes him more accountable precisely because of his extra powers. Superman is interested in protecting and helping people, normal people, from both incredible evil and cruelty, and from simple mundane things (“saving the cat”), simply because he can. And throughout his run has been shown to be conscious of lines he cannot cross, being willing to sacrifice himself or his powers if ir means helping others. And of course, he is primarily Clark Kent. A normal guy. Superman is just a facade he wears to help people while allowing his real self to remain incognito and unseen. So he also eschews the idea of deserving or even wanting praise.

[@gwendolinkirkegaard1812]

Never got the linking of The incredibles and Obejctivism. But "Meet the Robinsons" is very close to Objectivist thinking, tho it does not portray bad ideas or lessons per se

[@caseyworcester8451]

Great video, but I found it odd that towards the beginning you never mention Ratatouille which is also heavily criticized for being Randian and was directed by Bird. Why didn't you meantion it?

[@renegadecut9875]

No special reason. I didn't like it when I saw it years ago, and nothing about it sticks in my memory. Didn't even think to add it or examine it. Besides, this isn't about Bird.

[@caseyworcester8451]

That makes sense

[@wrybreadspread]

Just off the top of my head, about 4 minutes in, I don't recall John Galt or Howard Roark suffering any of the self doubts, paroxysms of conscience, or moments of confession and humility that seem to occur to Bob Parr at regular intervals. I see...if I may borrow from Holy Writ...similar to when Elijah fleeing Jezebel's threat hard on the heels of his victory over the prophets of Baal...or David confronted by Nathan. Bob bared his soul...twice...in the presence of his family. That's some admirable stuff

[@billlupin8345]

It’s one hell of a stretch to call Iron Giant objectivist. He sacrificed himself, that’s as altruistic as it gets.

[@renegadecut9875]

I literally say it's a stretch in the video.

[@SarahAndreaRoycesChannel]

I always wondered why the Bioshock mov... sorry, Tommorowland did go with the bad ending. Well, you gave me a hint here ;-)

[@johnnysasaki]

I've watched Fight Club on a phantom screening last year.Still just as great as I remember it.

[@LeandelDeFate]

I'm sorry, and I do agree with your "Incredibles" take, but FIGHT CLUB is just as good as I remember it.

[@johannageisel5390]

Thanks for this in-depth analysis. I've never seen the movie in this way.

[@KainMalice]

I used to believe this. Glad I got away from it. I hated life.

[@brentparker7359]

Thank you for your balanced view of the film and its messages. As you mentioned, in some ways, both films upend the concepts presented in "Atlas Shrugged." In Rand's novel, John Galt initially appears mysterious and sinister, making the rich and powerful disappear, until Dagny discovers that he was actually doing "good" (from Rand's perspective) by creating Galt's Gulch. In the first "Incredibles," the exact reverse happens: Syndrome's island is presented as a sort of Galt's Gulch where Mr. Incredible can still be super in secret, however, it turns out that Syndrome is actually luring supers there so he can kill them. In the second film, the Deavor siblings initially appear to be like James and Dagny Taggart: he's a clueless man-child and she's the self-sufficient brains of the operation. However, it's Evelyn Deavor's refusal to accept help from anybody that leads her into supervillainy and ultimately, to her downfall.

[@paulinathompson1239]

Once when I was at a friend's house, his older brother told me I "just had to" read The Fountainhead, and I laughed at him. The brother, who was about 5 years older than me (a teenager), got REALLY offended by how "dismissive" I was being. I wasn't invited over again after that.

[@Jfund12]

The "equality" of the film seems to be more interested in equity of outcomes than equality of opportunity. Which may be just how you framed it. It has been forever since I saw the movie. Syndrome wanted everyone to have access to super abilities. But the thing that makes him the villain in my thought process is his motivation. He doesn't want this outcome out of a since of equality or altruism. He wants his outcome out of a sense of spite. Which is his fatal flaw if you will. And I think that Rand would argue that Mr. Incredible's morality is an action of self interest. He is holding himself and others to standards that he believes in for his own sake. As is their parenting style. Them trying to instill their children with the sense that everyone is "special" seems to be to instill a sense of compassion in their superpowered kids. Because without that compassion, their kids could go on to do the things that they as superheroes fought against. The other thing that I think is important to mention is that Rand was a Russian born American. And the way the Soviets took over that country was by arguing that the people in power had robbed the citizens of what is rightfully theirs. The other thing the Soviets did was attempt to stamp out individualism. Which goes a long way into explaining some of her ideas.

[@stevenbrawley326]

Thank you. Just thank you. I was gonna leap down here and type something angrily brefore finishing the video, before you brought to light that the hero family was altruistic and had some morality. And you gave me a very simple, very clear thought; Syndromde, a rich genius who made his wealth through technology (and implied arms dealing) and made an island a gultch, was more Randian than the heroes. He's he's a murder, but not a thief in my mind. And he doesn't care for his employees, as evidenced by, as he put it, calling Mr. Incredible's "bluff" when the blonde strong man threatened to kill Mirage. Syndrome is more Randian than Mr. Incredible, but not completely.

[@redfeildre349]

...OR... The villain of the piece is the radical objectivist stealing powers for his own profit while The Incredibles work with enlightened self interest by stopping crime for the benefit of all. When the backlash against supers comes along, The Incredibles are prevented from working for the betterment of man and are forced to hide their special talents from an envious populous. Everyone looses.

[@jizburg]

Anyone else think Ayn rand looks like a vampire?

[@glenweber938]

No comment 😁😁😁

[@JonMerriott]

The UKs current home secretary states Rand as his favourite author. It got surprisingly little comment in the UK press.

[@SussyBacha]

Almost 20 years later, The Incredibles has aged very well.

[@UnseenBubby]

If we account for both an Objectivist and Altruistic story, what we have is a central theme of "Those that have the power to help people and protect them are morally obligated to do so." Mr. Incredible's most base desire through the film is to help people. He's locked in figurative cages created by both the government and the capitalists that stifle his desire to do good for the world.

[@roboticcynic580]

Basically, the philosophy that is discussed in this video is the Trump Republicans philosophy. Although, I took the Incredibles as paying respect for comic books that were transitioning from the Golden Age to the Silver Age

[@Iluvrocket]

Syndrome is super, in that he developed all this technology on par with at least many of the “natural born supers,” if he was going by Rand’s philosophy, if he had the ability to overcome the other supers, then shouldn’t he have the “right” to rule? Shouldn’t he get lots of money selling technology? Rand’s philosophy is only appealing to you if you truly are the most powerful, but if someone more powerful comes along, then would you adhere to the philosophy and let someone else rule?

[@calebmarston4729]

Fundamentally objectivism is extremely flawed, it works well as a critique of altruism but doesn't stand out well on its own. A critical point from Atlas shrugged that the video missed however was the idea of wealth being synonymous with virtue in rand's view. The freedom to create was the overriding motivation. Galt himself was an engineer in a motor company. A well payed position certainly but far from the best paid. Atlas shrugged went out of it's way to potray poor and working class people in the utopian area. Rand's views are extreme and problematic in many respects but I don't think you can describe them as classist. Elitist certainly but that elitism doesn't really come from wealth or money

[@Daniel-ht4wr]

Surely Syndome is an objectivist because despite his "low origin" he basically makes super heros his bitch. He also acts in his own self interest

[@AndyChannelle]

I always saw aristocracy in the Incredibles, with Syndrome as a representation of the citizenry or new wealth, demanding a seat at the table.

[@AngieSpeaks]

I am so happy you decided to make this video! I always gave the side eye when people insisted the films are objectivist propaganda, and although the film definitely has a lot of clear objectivist themes, It's not explicit in the text. I was going to make a video about the sequel and the gender dynamics in the story because I think these films are rich with subtext about American ideals. Even the fact it's set in a 50s futurist setting is very telling.

[@ReplicatorFifth]

Part two title card: so much yes. Have a like.

[@merrittanimation7721]

I base this purely on reading Atlas Shrugged a few years back (I was curious) but I feel like if it was purely Objectivist then Mr. Incredible's exploits would be viewed exclusively as a good thing.

[@DennisFrancispublishing]

I used to be a "Randian Libertarian" back in the early 80s. It was a romantic notion that had no real basis in history or practical political thought. Objectivists aren't monolithic any more than other groups. I've moved along since life has a way of slapping reality all over you to see if your ideas really hold up.

[@pedrovieira-ri7lk]

8:04 Andrew Ryan lives

[@ShirDeutch]

Even back when I was actually a fan of Rand's books, I just couldn't get behind the whole anti-altruism idea. I was all for exceptional people getting a bigger piece of the pie (as I considered myself to be one) but I couldn't quite understand why that meant I wasn't supposed to donate money to charity or help an old lady cross the street. It also occurred to me that Syndrome's goals are very similar to the antagonist of The Fountainhead, Ellsworth Toohey. Toohey actually states explicitly at some point (I'm paraphrasing, haven't read it in a long time) that he wants to crush the extraordinary people and make everyone the same, because... well... I never really got why. Syndrome has a much better, personal motivation, instead of just being an evil socialist. Lastly, it has been a long while since I read Atlas Shrugged as well, and my views have changed radically since, but it always felt to me like James Taggart was more a criticism of the "wrong kind" of capitalist. He's definitely a parasite, but he's not a simple worker, he's the CEO. And he has not earned this position either, it was handed to him because it's a family company. And he's portrayed as the bad guy! He's not a "good" capitalist like Hank Rearden, who is a maker, but rather someone who manipulates the political system to gain wealth for himself - he's basically a satire of real incompetent CEOs who claim to follow Objectivism but are actually themselves looters. At least that's how I read it, but it has been years and maybe some of it got lost it translation.

[@WikiSorcerer]

I always saw the form as more a Utilitarian movie (like most superheroes, now that I think about it).

[@aussakagamine8862]

Can I just watch a movie and enjoy it for being a movie lol.

[@KnightofEkron]

Funny thing is that I've heard this from Objectivists themselves.

[@theequitableprose]

The digression instantly won me.

[@DwRockett]

This is probably a really simple question, but how do you generally get the footage for your videos?

[@renegadecut9875]

I buy the movie and rip the footage. Miscellaneous clips (stock footage, etc.) are usually downloaded from KZbin. Same as any KZbinr with a video essay channel. Google can probably give you links to the basic software.

[@DwRockett]

Renegade Cut thanks

[@LevityRhodes]

I am using "Ayn Rand's Philosophy Is Mean and Dumb" as my twitter header if that's cool

[@SeanC773]

Rands views were not just stupid they are insane. She was a crazy person.

[@sena167]

I just learned a lot from this 20 minute video! So this Ayn Rand person actually existed in this planet? My goodness ...

[@FortuitousOwl]

Damn I really love this movie now this is all I’m gonna think about lol

[@rorylumley4727]

Superheros is against objectivism as they use their ablities to help others to their own detrimint.

[@juljul184]

it's always interesting when a sociopath writes a book and tries to explain to everyone how people are all exactly like them. the projection, like, jumps out.