The Intriguing Portrayal of Mary's Birth and Life in the Proto-Gospel of James

[@davidk7529]

“Christmas According To James” would make an epic holiday film

[@T-41]

I shouldn’t be surprised , but have always found Dr. Ehrmans’s scholarly colleagues to be not only very knowledgeable about the subject matter but also very skilled at presenting the info in a both interesting and clearly understandable way. The students of these teachers are very fortunate .

[@Lost-In-Blank]

As a former electrical engineering student, I am envious of the wonderfully amazing lecturers other faculties have.

[@juliamagan7259]

😢

[@carefullychristian8657]

What 99.99% of people have never listened to different scholars be them historians or archeologists to get opinions from others. Bart is specialzed in gospels. As az scholar he should know better that gospels have quotes from tanalh and thats what he misses so he.cant talk with authority on gospels since he never relates tanakh with gospels

[@rogerphelps9939]

Electrical engineering is far more valuable when it comes to earning some money to keep body and soul together.@@Lost-In-Blank

[@quakerelf]

I feel like the Orthodox church frequently gets ignored or glossed over in these discussions, even when it would be very relevant. In past episodes I have been surprised that they don’t get a nod when the Didache comes up, for instance. Modern Orthodox fasting practice is taken straight from the Didache. It is part of their active tradition… but they don’t even get acknowledged. You guys acknowledged the Catholics and their relationship with Mary, but the Orthodox should have gotten a huge shoutout in this episode! Although they don’t have this book in their canon, it plays a big role to this day in the lives of Orthodox Christians in a way it doesn’t for any other group, including important feasts of the church. For instance, they celebrate her entrance into the temple and teach the story of her entering the temple at age 3 and being given to Jospeh at 12 as doctrine. In addition, the Orthodox church accepts the old man Jospeh and step brothers of Jesus, which is straight from this text. They have no problem referencing James the Brother of the Lord and it doesn’t create any kind of theological difficulty for them.

[@christallaktorides6904]

I agree. Why is the Orthodox Church never mentioned. It has had an influence which is ignored. My grandmother would tell us these stories about Mary when I was a child and she was told by the Greek Orthodox Church.

[@deborahbarbour2241]

The Catholic issue is that they can't handle the thought of Mary having sex (the horror! 😮) because sex is regarded as shameful. Because of a problem accepting human sexuality, we have a plethora of problematic issues.

[@christinehaley8097]

Boy! you got that right!

[@Krosbryd]

Wow. I'm so early to the podcast that Paul is still persecuting the Christians

[@tonykarrar7150]

Now THAT was a good one 😂

[@hereigoagain5050]

:) And he still is!

[@celestialknight2339]

He stopped persecuting them physically, but unfortunately his anti-Christ teachings are still taking a toll on them to this day 😢

[@pricelessmine]

Hahahahah

[@deadpiratetattoo2015]

That's some prescient funny stuff. Nice brain work. Made me laugh out loud

[@dannynye1731]

Joseph was in the shop working on big contracts and dealing with supply and labor shortages. Especially after Jesus stopped straightening boards, clearing knots and correcting saw cuts. Haven’t you scholars ever worked in a wood-shop?

[@Vicky_C87]

When was the proto gospel of James written? I grew up protestant, where no one talks about the apocrypha. Now I've deconverted, I love hearing about all these writings I don't know anything about. What a fascinating episode! Would love to hear more about other apocrypha.

[@Lost-In-Blank]

I was curious too and paused the video to look it up. Wikipedia suggests after 150 AD, probably shortly after. Maybe someone else has a better source they could share?

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

@@Lost-In-Blank Yes, this seems to me a critical question I would like to have seen addressed in the podcast.

[@kendebusk2540]

I love your use of "deconverted" in describing your retreat from the church. I am not an alcoholic, but I love their view of someone being a "recovering" alcoholic, but the don't use anything like former, cured, etc. That's the word I use to describe the state of my beliefs, that of being for many decades a "recovering" Baptist now at age 71. I do think the odds of a "recovering" alcoholic starting to drink again are levels of magnitude higher than my chances of reconverting :)

[@edward1412]

I’m a Christian and I love reading both the Old Testament and New Testament Apocryphal books. They might not be inspired but some of the stories in them make me even to understand the canon Bible even better.

[@wpoe54]

As a student in art history, especially Medieval art, I learned about these stories from the Golden Legend by Jacobus de Voragine. I did not realize his stories were derived from aprocryphal gospels.

[@hereigoagain5050]

Joseph was a rolling stone. Wherever he laid his hat is home. And when he died, all he left us was alone. And Mary, some bad talk goin' round town sayin' that Joseph had four outside children.

[@rachybos]

More than 4! Based on the Gospel of Mark and research by Dr. Taber, there were 7 siblings: James, Simon, Judas, Joseph, Mariam, Salome, and I think Ana.

[@FretnesButke]

..and another wife,and that ain't right..

[@davidchess1985]

Wait... in order for Jesus not to get sin-nature from Mary, Mary had to be without sin-nature, so to avoid her having sin-nature, God just did a miracle? Why couldn't he have done the miracle to prevent Jesus from getting it, if he can do that miracle? Such logic! :)

[@WayWalker3]

Psttttt...listen and I'll whisper it to you. (it was a miracle) 😶

[@thealmightyaku-4153]

Here's what will really boil your noodle: why not do that for everyone after Adam & Eve?

[@joshuaswart8211]

@@thealmightyaku-4153Heck, God could have done it ONCE for Seth, and badabing badaboom, humanity doesn’t have sin nature anymore!

[@ilikecookies9796]

@@thealmightyaku-4153 Because then how would he make us feel guilty for existing?

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

This is similar to the “if there is no God, then who created the world?” argument. (B: Who created God then? A: No one created him; He was always here. B: Then why not just say that the world was always here? A: But…but..this amplifier goes up to eleven.) Some people are intellectually incapable of thinking more than one step back.

[@Dawahdude0]

Bart great podcast . Chris awesome work, great content and superb presentation

[@Jasmixd]

As a former Roman Catholic, it's amazing to see how much of our faith comes from oral and apocryphal traditions, the story of Mary's parents being unable to have children, including their names, is somewhat common knowledge for people interested in their faith more than the average believer. It makes sense of course, as the Church itself is older than the Bible as we know it, which applies to most other pre-reformation Churches as well, afaik. Hence the non-reliance on the Scripture that protestants find either weird or outright blasphemous, depending on denomination. To illustrate the catholic understanding, I'd paraphrase Jesus in the gospels: Bible was made for man, not man for the Bible :) PS For my confirmation (one of the sacraments in the catholic rites, a kind of second baptism) I chose the name (we get a new one we never use, it's symbolic or something) Joachim, after the very Saint father of Mary. Unfortunately my choice didn't have much depth behind it, I just liked the name and found him being the patron saint of bedsheet sellers funny (I think it's listed as linen traders in English sources though).

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

The books that were chosen to form part of the Bible are, in the eyes of some, just an arbitrary collection of the stories and beliefs of that time period that happened to be compiled in this way. They are no more or less valid, in the eyes of some, than other stories and beliefs of that time period such as the stories of Mary you mentioned.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

I find your argument convincing.

[@DarrylWhiteguitar]

Such a great discussion. The guest eloquently tells a compelling tale. The story is very touching, realistic in the behavior of Joseph. This story is a redress, then, of Joseph's absence in the canonical Gospels.

[@thewb8329]

The early church fathers were like Star Wars fans that make up explanations to make the Star Wars universe fit together.😂

[@nsbd90now]

Ha ha! Fan fiction!

[@thealmightyaku-4153]

I've thought for _years_ that the best parallel to religious apologetics of any sort, is nerd discussions trying to make sense of all the lore. Like the famous discussion of "No Endor Holocaust", or Star Trek spculation about transporters, &c. You even get fan creations or interpretations widely accepted as 'canon'.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Because Star Wars is based on the Antichrist, the character called Death in the Bible that ends Death and brings Peace on earth That's why Darth Vader is portrayed as his Father, Jesus, who is the Celtic God of Death, who said forgive them Father, and that you are of your Father the Devil. He was talking about himself, Joseph of Arimathea Who reincarnates as the Moon Child pursued by the Dragon, which is Hydra in Leo Born during the eclipse of Oct 14, the birthday of Jason Vorhees Lord of the Rings, A New Hope, Two Towers, Gemini, Two Pillars, The Return of the King, The Return of the Jedi The one who brings Balance A Prophecy misread can be Snow white, Prince Charming, Straw that breaks the Camels back, pricked upon the Needle, Stigmata, Dark City, Caste away, Purge, Avengers, Spider man, Super man, Bat man, all the same thing Capricorn, Capstone of the Temple, the Cry in the wilderness New Zealand Land of New Hope Hamas means Zeal, or Hope The Bible has to be inverted to understand, but the Tribulations have begun, and the age of Aquarius dawns with the end of the age of Man Which we are witnessing in real time.

[@nsbd90now]

@@Uncanny_Mountain Dude does the truth! It's Uncanny!

[@joefromtheBronx]

Joseph did pop up 12 years later in the teaching in the temple scene. Can't be THAT old. Not being around 30 years later isn't too surprising with life spans. He could be in his 50s by then & could easily have died by then. Actually, Mary still being around (especially if she actually gave birth to multiple children) was somewhat lucky.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

As you suggest, more likely that Joseph still being around do the risks of childbirth for Mary, unless he was older to start with. Still life expectancy at adulthood wasn't that low and it would be far from rare for a 30 year old to have both parents living.

[@Lost-In-Blank]

@@jeffmacdonald9863 Yes, it was childhood mortality that reduced average life span so much. But on Joseph. When they were talking Joseph disappearing after Jesus birth, the first thing that went through my mind was Joseph going out to get a pack of cigarettes and never returning. I know there is more, but I am not that well versed in the bible, so I was just going by that one sentence. Religious humour can be so funny. One of my great grandfathers did exactly that.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

The thing most commonly misunderstood about life-span statistics is that they are averages. The main factor pulling down life-span averages in earlier times (earlier than ours, that is) was infant mortality. The big hurdle then was making it past infancy. People aged at the same rate as they do now, and septuagenarians, octogenarians, etc. were not that uncommon. In any case, I wouldn’t read very much into the earlier or later absence of any Biblical character. What struck me when I first attempted to tackle the Bible is how abbreviated and elliptical its narratives are. Very little, if anything, is fleshed out.

[@sonarbangla8711]

It is time to say why Jesus was divine and his other siblings not.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Jesus was a creation of Joseph of Arimathea, a curse upon Rome. He's the Author, or Arthur, who pulls the Cross from the Stone; the guy with a feather, or Scribe's pen, hence the Pen is mightier than the Sword. E Io te Ari Matea is also a figure in Maori mythology in New Zealand, which aligns to the Zodiac, and the Southern Cross, and is forty degrees south of the equator. They also have He Uenuku Atua, or Rainbow spirit, a reference to the Unicorn, and Jesus, and worship Papatunuku, the Great Earth Mother, also worshipped by the Phrygians of Anatolia as El Pipitunaka, or Titikaka, which is also found in Teotihuacan, along with Amarru Marru, and in New Zealand Oamaru And best yet, in the western part of the North Island sits Taranaki, which means Northern Star The Bible is an almanac encoding a world map, including New Zealand, Hyperborea, or Elysium, the Underworld of Hades, and the secret home of the Phoenicians. Maori having a character called Maui, or the Navigator, alligning to Ophiuchus, the 13th Starsign which lasts 18 days (3x6) and the Manger or Cave in which Jesus was born and died in. Maui plants two eels, just as Osiris planted two serpents, which sprouted into pillars, like Sampson, or Moses, picking up the Serpent Staff of Pharoahs. Ophiuchus being the Serpent Bearer, just as Jesus represents Hephaestus, or the Brazen/ Rainbow Serpent of the Dream time. Maui also slows the sun, just as Joshua in the Bible, in a battle campaign that aligns with that of Tutmoses III, and his battle with Jericho, aka Megiddo, in which he used a Goat Track, which relates to Capricorn, and we also find in the tale of Sparta. Cap as in Capstone, or Headstone, or Altar of Ra, the Holy Grail atop the Mountain of Moses, or Great Pyramid, the Holy Mountain of Hermon. Now if you impose a Star of David and align the central axis to the North and South poles, and flip it upside down, you have exactly what the Bible describes as the transition of the Age of Pisces into Aquarius, and the zenith of Orion, the Root of the Zodiac or Tree of Knowledge And Maori again have a Forest God called Tane, who separated the Sky God from the Earth Goddess, his position is no different to that of Atlas, propping up the world by his shoulders. Jews were Celts, and Celts settled New Zealand and mapped it out at least 5000 years ago, at the period of Ireland's Megalithic period. New Zealand being a land of only birds, which Celts saw as sacred, and great trees like the Kauri, not unlike Menkauri pyramid. Great for ship masts, and plenty of flax to make sails for Aladdin's flying carpet (Sailing ship). Aladdin being King Solomon, his mines being the astrological knowledge that put them centuries ahead of Rome Sadly in 200AD lake Taupo (Night of Tau, Taurus) erupted and buried the entire island, very few survived, but some did, and their ancestors are still around to this day. They have the same language and stories as Palestinians, who speak Aramaic, like Jesus, and E Io te Ari Matea Which means the clear first month of the Calendar, and relates to Tammuz Hence the call in the Wilderness, Pan, E Io Matea calling out to his people Come out, come out of here my people, and so shall she deliver of of ye yea, up up up unto me, and in so that I might bring of ye yea some comfort.

[@AccidentalNinja]

It does sound like fanfiction; someone wondering how something would be & the issues the people involved would face.

[@sloopy5191]

Great conversation, thanks!!

[@goedeck1]

Dr. Ehrman I bought and read your book Jesus Interrupted after hearing you interviewed on Coasttocoastam by Ian Punnet. I heard that Ian passed away yesterday.

[@x4ms]

Thank you for the presentation and the discussion. I find it fascinating how much the birth of a child is under social control. On the one hand, of course, this is obvious, but on the other hand it is also significant. Your presentation makes this all the clearer.

[@yourmatpong1078]

Recieving the notification by 12:30 AM here.

[@MichaelYoder1961]

Thanks, Chris and Bart. A most Merry Christmas to you both and to Megan and Josh and your team as well. Always look forward to these episodes - a highlight of my week and always educational and appreciated!

[@warrenrosen132]

So with the Salome incident was God giving a not so subtle warning about messing around with Mary's plumbing?

[@RyanEhli-MusicAndGuitar]

What song is playing during the intro? It's a beautiful musical piece on the violin. I love discussions about non-canonical Christian writings!

[@jamesbinns8528]

I don't think it was the Temptations.

[@YaoEspirito]

Pretty sure that's a cello.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

If it’s not sung, it ain’t no song.

[@harryw29]

Where did the idea that sex is sinful and virginity is holy originate? If god designed the human body and all life (almost) to have sex, then why is it sinful?

[@MikeFean]

Adam and Eve weren't prohibited to have sex or masturbate or procrastinate, so it was not a sin.

[@chrisdriver7776]

Did they discuss when these proto-gospels were written?

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

If they did, I missed it.

[@joecrocilla7695]

Wow what a story , being an ex catholic I never heard about the flaming vagina. Very creative imagination. Where did they come up with this concept? Great insight and interview nonetheless

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

It was a flaming hand, not a flaming vagina, and though the story is obviously fantastical and probably seems odd to most of us in the modern era, it doesn’t strike me as particularly creative.

[@boa1793]

There was probably a myth or fable at the time of writing. A lot of the Bible seems to have borrowed the stories of the time.

[@paulkoza8652]

Having been raised a Catholic, I am familiar with the stories that Dr. Frilingos has recited from this proto gospel. So it seems to me that the Catholic Church was aware of this and promoterd the stories of Mary's relationships with family prior to the birth of Jesus. It makes more sense to me now.

[@JamesAgans]

I was raised Catholic, I was even an alter boy for some time. Frankly, I knew the whole thing was BS at about 8 when they said that newborn babies did not go to heaven if they weren't baptized in time. The nuns told us they went to Limbo, which was a place between heaven and purgatory. Only much later did I learn that it was actually a Latin dance you do with a stick.

[@stormy8110]

😂😂😂 Her hand caught on fire! 😂😂😂

[@davidrobinson4119]

Why would there have been anything written about Mary before her being the mother of Christ as she would have been totally unknown?

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Was she totally unknown if she was from an elite family?

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

It wasn't written before Jesus was born. :) She survived after Jesus died, so in theory it could have been passed on from things she told disciples during his ministry or after his death. Or from James or Jesus's other siblings. In reality of course it was all made up long after, but it's not totally implausible someone could have known.

[@albertmagician8613]

There was a question about virginity that I had to learn at age 9 :"Is Maria altijd maagd gebleven? Ja, na Jezus geboorte is Maria altijd maagd gebleven." In between important matters, "can we see God? ". After those years Catholic indoctrination worked, I remember the questions and answers literally learned in the year 1956.

[@edward1412]

I read this book a year ago and it seemed Joseph was supposed to be just a guardian to Mary and not really a husband. Dude didn’t even want to take Mary to his house as he thought he was too old and people might even laugh at him being seen with Mary.

[@lazykbys]

If Mary remained a virgin after giving birth to Jesus, wouldn't that suggest that he didn't have a bodily birth and therefore was not human but completely divine? Maybe this was why the proto-gospel didn't make it into the canon.

[@getasimbe]

That's a great point. The Marcionites believed Jesus was fully divine and not man, and they were branded as heretics and their beliefs wiped out. I'm sure they didn't want to add evidence to their cause

[@cisco9t5-y9e]

O what a tangled web we weave when we practice to ……. excuse our own foolishness. If you start saying that Jesus was God you then have to concoct a backstory that explains how he came to earth. Add to this the preoccupation with sex as being sinful, notions of what is holy and unholy, pure and impure you then have to spin a yarn that wraps around all of these elements. This yarn is stretched beyond all credibility.

[@DarrylWhiteguitar]

Thank you, gentleman.

[@MarcRitzMD]

Immaculate Conception is so redundant when the Virginal Birth would in itself be a disruption of original sin, since there is no association with any male seed nor with Mary's birth canal

[@MarcRitzMD]

Such a beautiful story of a 12-yr child married off to an asexual old geezer, only to be coerced into pregnancy by a powerful being and abandoned. Wouldn't you wish that to happen to your daughter, too?

[@christinehaley8097]

You said it!!

[@dt5735]

How many actual original archaeological pieces of scrolls do we have that the so called proto gospel words can be dated to post 100ad? How many of them are contiguous?

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@sffretheim8547]

Christopher Frilingos made reference to similar Greek or Roman stories from about the same time period, but I didn't hear an approximate date mentioned. Whoever this "James" is it sounds like he had access to "Mathew" and "Luke", so would this have likely been written 2, 3, or 4 generations after the events described in the canonical gospels?

[@stevearmstrong6758]

I saw one date estimate of 145 CE.

[@conniestone6251]

@@stevearmstrong6758. Where did you see that?

[@gloriamontgomery6900]

Probably

[@stevearmstrong6758]

@@conniestone6251 I believe it’s from Dr. Ehrman’s book, Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament

[@davidbrachetto1420]

Or did the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke come from the same source that the “gospel of James” came from? 🤔

[@progidy7]

I know there's a brevity aspect to these episodes, but I still wish for deeper analysis of some topics. For instance, the brilliant light that came from the cave when Jesus was born led to the Catholic phrasing of his birth "like a light through glass", that this birth detail neatly addresses the Curse of Eve that due to original sin women will have a painful childbirth yet Mary didn't, that the first midwife heralded Jesus' birth as the salvation of Israel before even entering the cave (quite the ham-fisted literary device), or that the story slips between first and third person at will.

[@KaiHenningsen]

Just looked at a number of pictures of German nativity scenes ("Krippenszene"). I could be mistaken, but my impression was that Joseph was a young man in each and every one, and that's what I remember was always my impression. I've only ever heard of old Joseph from Americans. "This is uncomfortable to talk about"? Why?

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

As an American I'd never heard of an old Joseph, but I assume these experts know better than I do haha

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Yeah, I don’t remember encountering old Joseph depictions either. I never paid all that much attention, though.

[@rosca_21]

They do say it's mostly an old tradition

[@davidk7529]

Probably because of the evangelical church tradition of dressing up for nativity plays and having M&J played by couples of similar ages, usually younger because they’re more excited to do it, and of course to help with visual appeal.

[@davidk7529]

It would be understandably uncomfortable to try to discuss intrusive descriptions of a woman’s body.

[@CarmenRizzo-pn1uw]

Anna Mary"s Mother Knew and Zach aryah

[@JonathanMartin884]

Do we have any other ancient or pre-modern account of a virginity test like the one that happens in this text? My guess is that it is not going to be commonly discussed in texts because it entails women's history, but may have been fairly common, but I can't really find anything on it. Just seems like a crazy practice to me, which is one of the reasons why I assume it was more common rather than less common.

[@zeddeka]

Those things are still going on in a number of cultures. Hence the proliferation of "virginity repair" cosmetic surgery.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

Which virginity test? Bart is conflating the ordeal of truth (drink the water of the ordeal, then go to the hill country and come back) with the "let's poke the holy flaming vagina" one. The ordeal of truth has nothing to do with virginity. It was a test for JOSEPH, not for Mary. The context is that Joseph was supposed to keep the holy temple virgin safe and not poke her. Well, she's preggo now so he must have poked her, failing his sacred duty. When Joseph denied it the priests thought he was lying and had him drink the water of the ordeal of truth and go face his demons in the wilderness. Turns out he did tell the truth, so had no demons and came back OK. That got Mary roped into it, but she also came back OK. Both were released. So this isn't a test of virginity and not a test for Mary. The "let's poke the holy vagina AAAAAAAAAARRRGGGHH IT BURNS! IT BURNS! IT BUUUURRRNNNNSSSS!!! WHY IS THIS VAGINA ON FIREEEEE????!!!" test is the standard virginity test. You check the hole for a hymen. This one is a test for Mary. The second one (the virginity test) is done all the time even in the modern world. You don't even need textual evidence for it.

[@davidk7529]

@revpadma I think the comment was referring to the midwife’s attempt at checking directly, since the possibility of that as an existing practice wasn’t addressed in the video.

[@karlmarx9309]

In Catholic, Mary is all about "Sistine Madonna" by Raphael. Mary is Holy Ark.

[@conniestone6251]

When and Where was this written (supposedly)?? I am pretty sure that it’s Not from the collection of « Dead Sea scrolls » nor from Nag Hammadi ? Was this discussed and I missed it ?

[@andrewsuryali8540]

It isn't discussed. The Protoevangelium of James is a 2nd century text that both the Orthodox and Catholic branches keep in their expanded libraries (as apocrypha) but never accepted as authoritative. The text has never been lost like the DSS or Nag Hammadi library. It's always been available from the Church, but in either Greek or Latin. Bart dates it to around 150CE.

[@conniestone6251]

@@andrewsuryali8540 thank you!

[@betzib8021]

So you guys go through all this and don't explain what "the ordeal" was?

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

I get the impression that Joseph and Mary were banished into the wood and had to fend for themselves.

[@davidk7529]

It seems it didn’t contain any relevant details, so they just covered the connection to the topic.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

It's kind of a side-note to the main conversation, but I find it interesting that the narrative of the actual birth takes elements from both Matthew and Luke, but also contradicts them both - like the giving birth in a cave part. Trying to harmonize the two by taking things from both makes sense, but it's odd to add new conflicting elements that late. What does that say about how the stories were still developing?

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Whoever this woman was (if she ever existed) she is dead and gone forever. My devout Catholic mother loved the story of Mary the Mother of God and prayed to her every day. Imagine praying to a description in a book written long ago by an unknown person.

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

Some might ask how any other religious figure is any different

[@alenlen1830]

What a story..

[@jasonnelson316]

Do we know when this Gospel was written?

[@Tar-Elenion]

ca. 150AD

[@jamesbinns8528]

Why on earth did this book not make it into the Canon?

[@WayWalker3]

Well, Mary having a gynecological exam might have been a bit 'unholy'.

[@Jasmixd]

Parts of the story, at least, are included in the Catholic tradition, though I couldn't tell you which came first. I'm not saying they're in the Catholic Bible though, the traditions go wider than what's included there.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

I have to think that inclusion and exclusion was a bit arbitrary.

[@MrDukeOmega]

Because Jerome, wanted to Joseph to be virgin as well!

[@robinpage2730]

I desperately want to see a conversation between Dr Ehrman and Rabbi Tovia Singer

[@ThroneofDavid8]

Two atheists?

[@Simon.the.Likeable]

Singer likes an interviewer who asks few questions and stays out of his way. A two-way conversation with someone like Bart will never happen with him.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

​@@ThroneofDavid8 Singer is a hardline apologist for Orthodox Judaism, specifically of the Chabad variety (although in his case he doesn't think Schneerson is the Messiah).

[@nsbd90now]

Many might be confused by "Immaculate Conception" especially when you are talking about "sin nature" rather than "original sin". The immaculate conception means that Mary did not have original sin, or as is articulated here... "sin nature from sperm".

[@conniestone6251]

However she and her husband Had Been having sex;, they were trying to have a baby. So I don’t get it…what is the assumption about him and her? Or it doesn’t matter who else she’s having sex with--after god or the angel (or whatever)?

[@nsbd90now]

@@conniestone6251 Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with her being a virgin or not. (That's the common confusion!) It is an ontological state-- we all have "original sin" or "sin nature" from birth. She did not. It is HER conception in her mother Anna that was "immaculate".

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

​@@conniestone6251 you're thinking of Mary's mother - she was the one who was struggling to have a baby. Then God purportedly had mercy and gave her a baby that was miraculously unaffected by the original sin - aka Mary. Mary herself purportedly never had any sexual relation. According to this tradition/source, that is.

[@Lost-In-Blank]

I missed the video on the book of Jesus childhood. I'm going to go back and watch it now to see how a child born without original sin spends his time.

[@CarmenRizzo-pn1uw]

Yahoshua and She Are Twin Souls from Creation

[@wpoe54]

Since these gospels were rejected as canon, why did Catholics take them so seriously as to develop theologies around them?

[@davidbrachetto1420]

And why do Luke and Matthew’s infancy narratives reek of the gospel of James? 🤔

[@nareshvasishth4034]

Who has done it?

[@edward1412]

Angels fed Mary while she was in the Temple according to that Gospel.

[@diannaholiday9086]

Excellent conversation! Interesting how this non-canonical story still informs the teachings of the Catholic Church. And I love that the Holy Family had problems too. Who knew?!😅

[@janloose8016]

That saints never had sex isn't true. Look at Saint Augustine of Hippo : he had a son by his mistress when he was barely 19 years old.

[@TimBee100]

I have a couple questions for Dr. Ehrman and maybe he would like to answer one or both of them on a future video if he hasn't already. 1) Did the ark of the covenant actually exist. What would it have been able to do? Certainly not create manna. Certainly not have powers or allow communication with a god. But it is apparently mentioned for decades or centuries before it was lost. What's the deal with that? 2) What main characters of Jesus gang had children? Jesus apparently didn't have any. Mary Magdalen didn't either. What about any of the apostles? The fact that none of the people around him had children does tend to lead to the conclusion that it is all made up because otherwise, there would have to be descendants of one of the apostles and that lineage might last to this very day. It's easier to say there were none. I never hear anything about someone whose great ancestor was a disciple of Jesus. Doesn't that seem odd?

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

1. Not bloody likely. 2 That was two-thousand years ago at a time when very few records were kept of people, especially of non-famous people. Do you know the names and biographies of any of your ancestors from two-thousand years ago? Throwing out the baby with the bathwater and calling the whole caboodle "all made up" would create far more problems than it would solve.

[@TimBee100]

@@jeffryphillipsburns I wasn't asking you.

[@Richard-s9s]

Extremely interesting. This comment is totally off the topic of Mary and her status as a woman/icon. Dr. Frilingos states the commonly held belief that John the Baptizer was the cousin (what ever that term may mean) of Jesus. Other than some prophetic language in the Lucan infancy narrative, which could apply to any person living out a life of faith what is the thread linking the son of Zachariah and Elizabeth with the person of John the Baptizer? Could it be only “extra-biblical” tradition (institutional context)?

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

The language in Luke seems pretty straightforward to me. Is there some argument that Luke didn't intend to convey that John the son of Zachariah and Elizabeth was John the Baptist? He talks about John's birth and when he later talks about John starting his preaching he calls him the "the son of Zachariah". At the very least, that's enough for anyone who knew the Gospel of Luke to draw the connection. No extra-biblical tradition needed. Where Luke got the idea is of course an entirely different question.

[@Richard-s9s]

That takes the text as currently constructed as a unified whole. The so called “infancy” narrative (first two chapters) are a latter addition to the primitive texts in an effort to establish the divinity of the person of Jesus.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

@@Richard-s9s Sure. The whole John was related to Jesus thing could have been added later using the reference to John son of Zechariah, but that's still not "extra-biblical", unless you're claiming the infancy narrative was added much later. Luke - or both Lukes if the author of the infancy narrative was different from the author of the rest of the text, either had other sources or just made stuff up. Or some of both. Are you talking some extra-biblical tradition different than the source he used for the rest of the infancy material? I'm not sure how you'd make that distinction.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

​@@jeffmacdonald9863You're misunderstanding his question. He's asking if there's any textual reference OTHER THAN IN LUKE that John was a cousin of Jesus.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

@@andrewsuryali8540 Probably. His question doesn't really make sense to me. Put it this way: There's no known older textual reference other than Luke for that. And there's no need for an independent extra-Biblical tradition to explain the connection in the proto-gospel or the commonly held belief today, since it's in Luke.

[@nsbd90now]

Oh! Ha ha! This is only 3 hours old! I've only been watching your stuff from longer ago.

[@Lost-In-Blank]

Excellent video! Very informative.

[@UncleJoeDunckel]

Riding on donkey for days couldn’t have helped with that Hyman.

[@radianceaghedo3563]

So funny James proto gospel's take on the birth of Jesus.

[@christinehaley8097]

How was Jesus born? The whole idea, the story goes, is that Jesus was born of a woman! It was in all the papers!

[@ericbilodeau3897]

Even if Joseph was 20 when Jesus was born he'd be 50 when Jesys is 30 and the life expectancy during that era was like 45. So Joseph not being present during the adult portion of Jesus' life in the gospels isn't really evidence towards him being old when Jesus was born

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

Life expectancy at birth was low. At adulthood, it's not that short.

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

@@jeffmacdonald9863 Was going to make the same comment. Life expectancy at the time was low because many/most children died. But adults did not live significantly shorter lives than modern people.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

@@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh So was I.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

You're misunderstanding average and actual life expectancy. People in the past didn't really understand the concept of average life expectancy unless they're Greek natural philosophers. It's a modern idea to list data of ages at death, summing the ages, then dividing by population size. People in the past thought of life expectancy as how long they expect people they know (and they themselves) can live. This is why, for example, the Talmud says people should only start learning the Talmud at 40. So the people reading the gospels fully expected a saint like Joseph to live a full life to 70 or even 120, not 45. That's why his absence in the gospels caused them to think that he was damn old when Jesus was born.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

@@andrewsuryali8540 The three persons who replied above you to the original comment clearly refer to modern statistical estimates of life expectancy two millennia ago, not to contemporaneous ideas about life expectancy. The original commentator doesn’t say, but it seems to me likely that he has in mind modern estimates as well. Furthermore, I doubt that absence of accounts of Joseph’s later life has any significance at all, one way or another. No narrative is required to keep constant track of every peripheral character, and Bible narratives tend to be particularly and distinctively abbreviated and elliptical.

[@CarmenRizzo-pn1uw]

Mary was born of a Virgin as well

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Not according to this podcast.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

In Catholic tradition she was born without sin, but not born of a virgin.

[@nyc-exile]

So the authorities believed Josephs story considering that what Mary did was a crime.

[@MikeFean]

Joseph must've received an offer ($) he couldn't refuse or he was utterly gullible.

[@PurchaseRationale]

Too many permutation and other probabilities to make a rational decision, only subjectively outcome.

[@Bronco541]

Im getting a hint that the reasons some of these books were left out of the bible was because they were too ahead of their time.

[@koreyoneal2623]

We know that the original Hebrew Gospel of Matthew didn't even have a birth narrative , let alone a virgin birth and we know that The Ebionites taught that Yeshua didn't become The SON of Yeh Ho VaH until His baptism , so I say that this work was tampered with by the Roman church

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

What do you mean by "the Roman church"? When do you think the birth narrative was added to Matthew (or to Luke for that matter)?

[@koreyoneal2623]

@@jeffmacdonald9863 the church based out of Rome , what else could I have meant by that ?. I don't know when it happened but the Hebrew Matthew was supposed to have been written around 37 AD , so some time after that . I'm not sure when this work was exactly written but if it was written by Yeshua's brother James The Just it would have to have been originally written before 64 AD I want to say , I'm pretty sure that's when he was murdered

[@michaelm6863]

Incredible to me that adults today will admit to believing any of this childish nonsense. No less incredible than Santa Claus.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Wait! Are you saying you don’t believe in Santa Claus?

[@MikeFean]

Ehm, can I bring in the easter bunny?

[@itsaqueerlife]

Someone has probably said this so my comment may be repetitious. Until the discovery of the female ovum, it was thought that the man planted a seed in the woman's womb. So the baby is a product only of its father and the mother is simply an incubator. When the female ovum was discovered and it was realised that the woman was equally responsible for the nature of the offspring then, for Mary not to have passed on original sin, she must have been conceived immaculately, that is without original sin. Consequently, the Catholic Church only defined this as dogma in 1854. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

[@danielscuiry2847]

I think it’s linked historically to the December 9 Feast of the Conception of St. Anne.

[@longcastle4863]

Fascinating. Really enjoyed this. A little creepy, though, how much sexual activity is pried into by the religious authorities. I like the realism, though, how at first Joseph is like, “Yeah, nice try Mary, but I don’t think so.”

[@Habs2802]

If Joseph was just the 'caretaker' of Maria, why is he mentioned at all?

[@nsbd90now]

He was a good guy?

[@Jasmixd]

I mean, he was the caretaker of "God's Mother" if you excuse the shorthand, so by extensions he took care of God himself, in a way. Sounds like an important job to have. That being said, we have to remember the society they lived in, and later the society which wrote about them, were very patriarchal, even Jesus' genealogies start with Joseph, despite Mary being said to be a virgin at conception, so of course he's going to be important, whether he was Jesus' father or not.

[@MikeFean]

They drew the line at the gardener.

[@erwinvarga]

👌

[@oliviadawes3345]

So… the Proto James thing is Mary fan-fic. Cool. 😂

[@conniestone6251]

That’s my impression. too.

[@joshuaswart8211]

I mean, fan fic kind of describes all the New Testament apocrypha.

[@RubyNeumann]

When are we going to see a movie on the Proto-Gospel of James? That would make a fun Christmas story!

[@jscire__872]

It’s so weird how the is such a big preoccupation with womens’ genitals in the old texts 😂 Of course it all has to do with hierarchy of humanity in the ancient times and the whole understanding of women as second class citizens, and the oppression and ownership of women by the men in their life. The imagined concept of physical “virginity” is just a result of the power imbalance and methods of control. Even as the whole hymen business is pretty ridiculous with modern understanding of basic biology 😅 Like one’s mouth would remain permanently broken after eating big hamburger. And yet, so much of the old story still hangs on that notion!

[@JohnWood-h2f]

So much the canon Bible does not reveal. Hints of a possibility but no real history. Why is Mary so glorified by Catholics but it is not in their Bible. She has become an idol in the Catholic Church. She sits higher than Jesus.

[@draxthemsklonst]

I'm not catholic. All I can tell you is my outside understanding of what you asked. Jesus is said to be the son of God. He is biologically human, yet one of his parents is not human. Mary is biological, yet she's conceived a child supernaturally via God's direct contact (individually, personally) with her. She was pregnant (to full term) with God's supernaturally exceptional offspring. That's a supernatural feat; months and months of gestation of a very spectacular baby. That means there are 2 biological humans that supernatural God has intervened in their lives in a personally intimate way (per human perspective) - the human mother and the human son. If you include Adam and Eve as part of this dynamic, then that means there are only 4 humans that God has ever had firsthand contact with. Is that important?

[@GizmoFromPizmo]

The problem with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary doctrine is not in regard to Jesus' brothers and sisters but in Jesus Himself. A woman cannot give birth to a flesh and blood baby without that baby passing through her birth canal. This action would completely destroy Mary's hymen and thereby, her virginity. So to teach that Mary was a virgin perpetually, we need to turn the baby Jesus into a spirit-being, which is exactly what the Infancy Gospel of James does. The doctrinal prblem with this, however, is the Apostle John who said that anyone who teaches that Jesus did not "come in the flesh" is an antichrist. The Infancy Gospel of James teaches that Jesus came as a spirit and is, therefore, heretical. The Catholic Church has held this doctrine since her inception (around 350ish A.D.). So, for nearly 2000 years, this organization, which calls itself Christian is, according to the apostles of the first century, not Christian but rather antiChristian. The Catholic Church is an antichrist organization, according to John the Apostle.

[@christinehaley8097]

You're right. Perpetual virgin is a ridiculous concept, given the story they are trying to explain.

[@GizmoFromPizmo]

@@christinehaley8097 - I mean, it doesn't even do anything, right? Does the perpetual virginity of Mary make Jesus any more the Savior? No. In fact, it actually detracts and distracts from Christ's Savior-hood. Catholicism is like the Serpent in the Garden. The teaching sounds good but it only leads to death.

[@khalidsab7035]

1+1+1= 3 early church fathers sucked in math 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@MarcRitzMD]

Why would Joseph and Mary have to undergo an ordeal to prove virginity when it would have been perfectly legal for Joseph to have sex with his child wife?

[@edward1412]

If you read that Gospel (Protoevangelium of James), you would realise that Joseph was supposed to be a guardian and not really a husband to Mary. Why did the priest decide to look for widowers (older men who had lost their wives) when they wanted to find a man for the young Mary?

[@nasishehim]

Hi Bart, You have reached halfway through y not complete the other half. . Y don't u do with quran what u did with bible? It's like the last piece of a puzzle.

[@jeffbybee5207]

Of course joesph is older you think a teen not sleeping with his wife that aint going to be beleaved

[@JohnWood-h2f]

No matter how Mary got pregnant she had a form of sex. So explain what really happened, oh you cannot.

[@leylinegoddess]

what if: mary stayed in the temple as a temple virgin until she was of age.(12?) why couldn't one of the high priests covered her and got her pregnant because in some cults the temple vestal virgins serviced the high priests. then when jesus was teaching at the temple for his bar mitzvah, he says, didn't you know i must be about my father's business? meaning he may have known one of the high priests may well have been his sperm donor. if she stayed that long in the temple, she herself was probably well educated, and literate and could have made sure jesus could read and understand the torah. just conjecture

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Very plausible. This family was part of the religious elite.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

Far more likely it was all made up after the fact than that this text written more than 100 years later preserved the details of the cover up of a scandal.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

@@jeffmacdonald9863 Yes.

[@dbarker7794]

Hail Mary!

[@CarmenRizzo-pn1uw]

Issa Jesus Immanuel had no male Chromosomes , ck. Shroud of Turin , Blood still red

[@chefchaudard3580]

There is no red blood on the Shroud of Turin. There is no blood at all, btw. And even female blood turns brown after a while.

[@Darisiabgal7573]

On the sin nature and St. Augustine. Augustine converted from Manichaeism. Mani adopted certain buddhist notions "Mani taught how the soul of the righteous returns to Paradise whereas "the soul of the person who persisted in things of the flesh - fornication, procreation, possessions, cultivation, harvesting, eating of meat, drinking of wine - is condemned to rebirth in a succession of bodies." - wikipedia.

[@JamesAgans]

Amazing how so many people try to make sense of BS by applying more BS. LOLOLOL

[@mzmscoyote]

Three things stand out to me. One Jesus is either the eldest child with younger siblings or the youngest child with elder half-siblings. Imagine how birth other might have contributed to Jesus’ development. If Jesus has step siblings, the story is a model for blended families. Joseph, as step father, seems to be a devote father whether his DNA is involved or not. What an amazing role model for today’s men.

[@ianmclaren9721]

Grifting the feeble minded. Telling lies for god😂

[@rustneversleeps01]

In the chronology of events, which comes ? (1) Mat.28.1 ¶In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. (2) Jhn.20.1 ¶The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. Let's zoom in (1) Mat.28.1...as it began to dawn... (2) Jhn.20.1...when it was yet dark... I'am confident that a 10y.o knows that "when it was yet dark ", comes before "as it began to dawn." Jhn.20.1-2 Paraphrased. Mary Magdalene arrives at the tomb when it is dark, and the tomb is empty, she hasn't seen any angels or a resurrected Measiah. Iam positive that you need a body in the tomb at sunrise to have a Easter Sunday Sunrise Resurrection. Mat.12.40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Mat.16.21¶From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Three days, three nights, raised on the third day. Very specific, only works one way. Jhn.12.1¶Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2There they made him a supper; Exo.12.1¶And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. When it is dark, begins the 15th, Passover. The first meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is the Passover meal (sedar) The 10th-14th are "preparation days" The 10th-15th is six days. Let's subtract six days from the 15th day of the month. Brings us to the 9th day of the month. He travels from Bethpage to Bethany (other three Gospels) and they prepare for him a supper. He travels, they prepare supper. This is not a Sabbath day, this is Friday the 9th, that evening begins the weekly Sabbath the 10th, they have a Sabbath night supper. Because Saturday is the Sabbath, the 10th, he rides into town on Sunday the 11th. Wednesday is the 14th, the day Israel sacrificed the Passover Lamb of God, Saturday is the 17th, He comes out of the tomb just before sundown on the weekly Sabbath, the third day. Mat.27.52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Aka 24 elders) These are the (G536first fruits) can be the offering or the one presenting the offering. The reader has to decide. Lev.23.9¶And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. In this scenario Messiah is the High Priest. Messiah was resurrected just before sundown on the weekly Sabbath the 17th, the First Born from the dead. The first fruits were resurrected by the Messiah after sundown "the morrow after the sabbath", Sunday the 18th. Do you know what I can not find in Scripture anywhere ? The first Sunday after the first fullmoon after the spring equinox Second Witness Luke.24.21 b 21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and (b) beside all this, to day is the third day SINCE these things were done. G575 SINCE, transliterated apo, to separate, especially in composition. Literally separate the first day of the week from the day of crucifixion with three days , makes Sunday the fourth day and Wednesday the day of crucifixion Good Works Eph.2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. What are these "good works" that God had before ordained, that we should walk in them? Let's do a quick word study on the word "WALK" Exodus 18:20 KJV - And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must WALK, and the work that they must do. Leviticus 18:3 KJV - After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye WALK in their ordinances. Leviticus 18:4 KJV - Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to WALK therein: I am the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 5:33 KJV - Ye shall WALK in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess. Deuteronomy 8:6 KJV - Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to WALK in his ways, and to fear him. Leviticus 20:23 KJV - And ye shall not WALK in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. Deuteronomy 13:4 KJV - Ye shall WALK after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Deuteronomy 19:9 KJV - If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to WALK ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three: Deuteronomy 10:12 KJV - And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to WALK in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, Deuteronomy 26:17 KJV - Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to WALK in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice: Deuteronomy 29:19 KJV - And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I WALK in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: Deuteronomy 28:9 KJV - The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and WALK in his ways. Deuteronomy 30.16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to WALK in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. This is only a partial list. Again, I believe a 10y.o could pick up on this . Do you know what's going on ? A Strong Delusion, brought on by the teaching of the traditions of men, as if they were the Word of God, and prefering the lie to the Truth. The Lie, the Council of Nicaea. The Truth, the Counsel of God, Gen-Rev. Anti-christ is also anti-Commandments of God, anti Feasts of the LORD. The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, He who was, who is, and who is to come. Walk in His ways , you will be blessed when you come in, blessed when you go out.

[@ericbilodeau3897]

After the gospels were written and Christianity had spread somewhat, I wonder how many adulterous women (or unwed, promiscuous women) tried to pull that card in the 2nd or 3rd century. The husband (or father) comes home to a pregnant wife (or daughter) and she swears up and down that she slept with no one and its a miracle birth and that the holy ghost came and impregnated her.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

I’d guess the number would probably correlate with the rate of schizophrenia in promiscuous women of childbearing age.

[@NathanDFoust-john146]

You can tell based on these writings that these "gospels" are man-made. A lot of them have been influenced by the Gnostics. They have a very different foundation than the Gospels of the New Testament. There is a reason why they were not included in the Holy Canon.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

No, you can tell they’re man-made because they consist of ink marks on parchment or papyrus representing a recognizable human language.

[@NathanDFoust-john146]

@@jeffryphillipsburns I see you don't understand my point. ;)

[@JCResDoc94]

*i remain a sealed vessel.* it is not really on topic, just. thought some people may be interested. _JC

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Probably not unless you’ve also given birth.

[@onlyme972]

Jewish Virgin pregnant???? Not the husband?? Instant stoning.