He's a Very Naughty Boy: The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

[@SirLangsalot]

Whats most interesting is that in surah 3 and surah 5 of the Quran, we have Jesus breathing life into clay birds; a clear reference of this infancy gospel.

[@stevearmstrong6758]

The further the writing is from the actual events of Jesus’ life, the more they tend to be fictional narratives - legends that evolved over time.

[@SirLangsalot]

@stevearmstrong6758 the Scholar, Robert Miller, has stated that the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was WILLINGLY written as a work of fiction. I wanna hear people that can eruditely comment on this......

[@stevearmstrong6758]

@@SirLangsalot Someone willingly made up the individual stories that are collected in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. I suspect they circulated orally for generations before someone wrote them down but the entire gospel could have been made up by a single individual. it’s interesting to read various theories on how they developed.

[@UnknownPascal-sc2nk]

We all wish that a few more people back then were literate and recorded observations about daily life AND knew Jesus as a child. Nowadays there'd by thousands of hours of video.

[@erinmokarzel5603]

The whole gospel is not a narrative. This is a collection of highlights

[@hippipdip]

For a split second I expected 5 year old Jesus caught making clay sparrows on the Sabbath to tell Joseph, “You’re not my real dad!”

[@JamesDavid-yt4ec]

The divorce rate probably wasn't as high back then. "Institutions of FAMILY" were just starting to be threatened by "leviathans" (insurance industry)

[@Theprofessorator]

If Jesus had a twin brother and the resurrection was actually the ol' switcharoo... man... they really got us good. 🤣

[@joetrapp9187]

My favorite hymn is "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life."

[@henry6451]

But so strange when you see what MAGA nuts believe.

[@alcosmic]

The Family Gospels is a sitcom waiting to happen

[@garrettholtz8379]

30:00 Most dads: "Measure twice, cut once" Joseph: "Jesus, come here! I did it again"

[@zdzislawmeglicki2262]

The missing years, yes. Like every nice Jewish boy, Jesus went to Eton as a teenager, then studied theology at Oxford, and did his PhD on Apocalypse at Cambridge.

[@carolineleneghan119]

bart seems like such a nice, kind, wholesome person! like a nice dad!

[@dpichney]

I wonder how some fire and brimstone fundamentalist would respond to that1 lol

[@MossyMozart]

@tawan20082008 - Seems to be a better daddy than Joseph was.

[@JamesDavid-yt4ec]

Joseph went to Egypt (previous ruling order) for help from overly competitive (vexed?) govt's of (Herod & Pilate/Tiberius?). Think Egypt was seeing opportunity for reclaiming their lost Glory days post PTOLEMIC fall (due to Julius Caesar & Marc Antony)? Joseph was a survivor. Read about Josephus (Jewish historian) and consider also: why did a "census" need to be ordered throughout the Empire at the time of Jesus' birth? That decree wasn't an order from the Court of Herod.

[@JamesDavid-yt4ec]

Merry Christmas 🌲!

[@brianbarringer7968]

Love this episode title. "Blessed are the cheesemakers..."

[@andybeans5790]

What's so special about cheesemakers?

[@chefchaudard3580]

@@andybeans5790it is « the sermon of the Mount » seen by the Monty Pythons 😊 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHezenqEqsZoja8si=xsnX0Rmndxy05Hts

[@andybeans5790]

​@@chefchaudard3580I was lowkey quoting the next line 😉

[@chefchaudard3580]

@@andybeans5790yes! Sorry…

[@MrDalisclock]

​@@andybeans5790clearly he's talking about the manufacturers of any dairy product.

[@parkburrets4054]

My parents got fed up with the congregational church when they supported a story of a child, disobeying his parents and leaving his house to go hear Jesus preach

[@5150cappie]

I always hear the line from Monty Python’s LIFE OF BRIAN when Brian’s mother won’t let Brian out of the house so those who mistook him for the Messiah can see him, because “He’s been a very naughty boy!”. I’m sure the tag line is no accident, and grateful for another excellent piece from Bart Ehrman - one of the world’s most respected biblical scholars.

[@bekkers29]

Hahahahahah, the title of this episode is my favorite line from Life of Brian, and I am utterly delighted.

[@moehoward8691]

You provide wonderful food for thought! You have helped me learn to question a lot of things I previously took for granted as truth.

[@andybeans5790]

Had my thumb over the screen and thought we were going to read the Fancy Gospel of Thomas 😂

[@jasonGamesMaster]

Fancy don't let me down!

[@anotherview7937]

😅

[@FretnesButke]

Either that,or"Fantasy"..

[@Ashaliyeva]

Just like Grade A Fancy ketchup! 😂

[@thescoobymike]

I wonder how often this happened to scribes lol

[@Margo714P]

This reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode where the boy could read minds and would kill anyone who wasn't nice to him. Talk about stressful!

[@oliverbrownlow5615]

"That's good, what you done, Jesus ... real good!"

[@dwpagliari]

😂😂😂

[@joshrogers7816]

Wasn't there a Star Trek storyline very similar to this.

[@russellpiccone6107]

into the cornfield you go

[@russellpiccone6107]

into the cornfield you go

[@Sxcheschka]

Thank you so much Chris Frilingos for that promotional code, I was going to add this book to my infinitely growing list of awesome books to buy, and probably wait a billion years to get, you guys absolutely rock! I can't wait to crack my copy open when it eventually will arrive. :)))))))

[@andrelegeant88]

The story in Luke is likely apocryphal, but I think it suggests that the childhood stories were floating around already, and Luke is trying to capture at least one of them in a way that, in his mind, made sense as foreshadowing the resurrection. The discovery of Jesus 3 days later reflects the resurrection; Jesus is aware of his purpose; the sorry and worry caused by him leaving his family is justified by his mission.

[@T-41]

Super interesting! I feel privileged to have the opportunity to sit in and hear this conversation between experts who have studied ancient history for their whole professional careers.

[@silviu-georgepantelimon1423]

Great interview as always, thank you Bart and Chris! I love listening the academic perspective on the bible and the apocrypha, it astonishes to me how both of you can convey information on the matter in a clear, unambiguous and non-bias way. I think this podcast is doing a great deal of good for many people, religious or not, because it informs people well on the subject and shows how people over the centuries articulated their beliefs. I pity those who wilfully refuse to listen to this goldmine of knowledge.

[@clopnibs558]

You are awesome, Chris!

[@AlanCanon2222]

7:04 discussion begins

[@thorpeaaron1110]

This is the first Gnostic Gospel I read in full and I enjoyed every minute of it.

[@Brutuscomedy]

I really appreciate the Gospel of Thomas in particular and how Elaine Pagels has elucidated said text.

[@realLsf]

Great show guys, thanks. I love the Gnostic Gospels & recommend Bart’s book, The Lost Scriptures which includes all of the important texts from Nag Hammadi alongside the epistles that didn’t make into the New Testament, apocalypses & non-canonical acts

[@dpichney]

The first time I heard about this it reminded me of the Superman films where they show him as a little boy on the farm of Mr and Mrs. Kent first learning about his super powers!

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Yes, I made this connection immediately-although I was thinking of the Superboy comic books which long preceded any movie or TV show.

[@dpichney]

@@jeffryphillipsburns At first I was going to say the comic books as well, but going back 65 years would not be something that most people here could relate too. Even the films are over nearly 50 years old!

[@kayb9979]

@@dpichney Well, some of us old farts remember the '60s and '70s (a bit of the '50s as well).

[@dpichney]

Amen to that , Sister!@@kayb9979

[@MilesfromNowhere21]

I heard about these stories back in high school as The Childhood Gospel of Thomas…I always thought referring to these as Infancy Gospels would be a misnomer since Infant implies inability to speak…Anyways…big fan of these stories…thank you so much Bart and guest for covering this topic!

[@amyderogatis4234]

Best episode ever! 😀

[@sloopy5191]

Wow! That was a fast hour! I really enjoyed this episode Bart and Chris...looking forward to your next visit together!

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

It must be a different culture. I have a 10 and a half year old. I can't imagine in 2 years going on a trip and not seeing her for 3 days and just assuming she's with her friends somewhere else in the group LOL.

[@talkingmudcrab718]

A different time and place. I grew up in the middle of nowhere and it wasn't uncommon for me to go out camping on my own or with friends during the summer for days on end at around that age. Usually would just tell my parents I was going out and that was that.

[@geemoney4242]

It was only about one day not 3 days when they realized He wasn't with the group. It took about 2 more days to actually find Him.

[@Theyellowbosss]

@@geemoney4242No it was three days.

[@geemoney4242]

@@Theyellowbosss no you're wrong it didn't take them 3 days to realize Jesus wasn't with them . Luke 2:44 “But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.”

[@henry6451]

This was before cellphones. You only need to back to the 1960s.70s even 80s to find much more independent kids. This was before helicopter mums When "latch key kids" had lots of unsupervised time with no means of contact.

[@360.Tapestry]

really seems to paint the young jesus as a supervillain's origin story

[@MichaelClarke1646]

You don't want to know about them, buut their out there.

[@andybeans5790]

It's interesting how people thought those origin stories were laudable in those days, when only a minority of people flock to such biographies today.

[@hendrikjanriesebos1293]

The very title got me cracking up. Thanks for that.

[@longcastle4863]

Jesus is presented as a child almost like one of those impish capricious mischievous early Greek gods. Great discussion. Looking forward to part 2.

[@wb6csh]

To me, this just illustrates, even more dramatically, the ridiculousness of the whole Jesus H.Christmastree myth! It was worth a hearty belly-laugh or two or three!

[@dolliscrawford280]

The 5 year old with the birds reminds me of my mother saying, "Don't do that, you're embarrassing me."

[@jacobduncan2142]

I've been hoping for this episode for the longest time!

[@dolliscrawford280]

My take. Jesus was given a strong middle to upper middle class father and a knowledgeable, possibly able to read mother who disciplined him with difficulty and paid for teachers. The most difficult children seem to be the smartest. His slightly older cousin John established a "religion?" That later put Jesus above John. I like the story of the wedding at Canaan where mom tells him they are out of wi e and he gives a teenage awe mom response. Mom then tells the servants to do what he tells them, knowing her son will obey her and create wine.

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@theobsoleteman3428]

Already the best video in this series!😂😂

[@retribution999]

There is no end of questions and the deeper you dig the more the questions pile up. Couldn't God have done a much better job of revealing what happened to future generations of seekers!?

[@TheSoteriologist]

Starts roughly around 7:00.

[@Re-Destro]

I learned two things today. Number one, Jesus was a meanie as a kid, number two baldness has been around since thousands of years and do not piss of a bald man especially if he's a Prophet of God. 😂

[@SteveSmith-kd9if]

WTF U TALKING ABOUT ZOMBIE!!!!!!?

[@jillmorgan7309]

Hey, last week they said this week the topic was James and Paul.

[@tasha6151]

Really interesting discussion -- thank you both!

[@JamesAgans]

Listen to John Prine "Jesus, The Missing Years" lolol

[@juvenalsdad4175]

I seem to remember Ma and Pa Kent having similar difficulties.

[@jeannedouglas9912]

Teaching human frailty. Like remove this cup by your will father not mine. Bleeding tears...human frailty is what is being taught. Like Peter denying him and blessed with great responsibility. Like all the 7 churchs in John Armageddon, yet still blessed.

[@spiritofMongan]

excellent presentation. T Y

[@jckensway2956]

I'm often at times like this reminded of The Buddha, or rather stories of The Buddha. Buddhist stories were already in oral circulation at the time of Jesus. We have predictions of an auspicious birth, crowds flocking to hear his words, disciples etc.. The famous Christian saying 'love thy neighbour' is not exactly predated by Buddhism nevertheless the sentiment is a common one in the Buddha's teaching. And as for 'turn the other cheek' I'm afraid Jesus was very much beaten to that one too.

[@jckensway2956]

@tawan20082008 what a strange response. It is irrelevant whether anyone ‘cares about the Buddha’ or not, (although 520 million people night disagree).I was merely pointing out how different religions share very similar stories and legends. I hold no brief for Buddhism; it’s simply the only other religion (i.e. than Christianity) about which I know anything. Given Buddhist missionaries were already visiting the Middle East by the time of Jesus’ birth the idea that he might have been exposed to such teachings cannot be entirely discounted although that wasn’t the point I was making.

[@Theyellowbosss]

⁠@tawan20082008Buddhism was here before Christianity . The point he is making is that all those phrases like” turn the other cheeks” and “love thy neighbor “ have been circulating around long before Jesus.

[@skipinkoreaable]

​@tawan20082008 Yes they do.

[@reframepodcast]

Best title ever.

[@WeesloYT]

Oh wow, this was recorded a month ago. UNC is 8-2 now, not 6-0

[@jamesgwoodwork]

OMG. Finally!

[@gusduenasArt]

Well when the writer jump from early infancy to adult, they are making a parallel with moose’s, one guided the people of Israel to the promised land and the other guided them to the kingdom of heaven through his sacrifice. Hence in that gospel is there a mention to moose’s being called from Egypt.My two cents

[@Dan-dg9pi]

These Gospels sound like "It's a Good Life" from the Twilight Zone, with Billy Mumy playing the role of Jesus and wishing people into the cornfield!

[@tedgrant2]

Aircraft designers have to think carefully about what could go wrong. They try very hard to make sure the passengers come to no harm. God, of course, knows the future and can do anything.

[@AsadAli-co1wv]

How I contacte dr bart ehrman

[@theNTT.StrandedAlien]

I loved every minute of this episode

[@jmatrixrenegade1971]

It would be fascinating to find out what happened between 12 and 30. He at some point became a disciple of John but that's a lot of time. Also, it would be prime time for marriage.

[@dolliscrawford280]

As an obedient Jew I believe he was married and raised children who were hidden to protect them from his ministry so the Roman's couldn't retaliate, possibly from the church hierarchy also. Nothing good comes out of the slums of Nazareth. What a good place to hide. No proof, just in my own mind.

[@LandELiberation]

I believe a similar story about the beams extending is in the Mishnah, told about Hanina benDoza

[@bdwon]

You guys are fun! That MI guy's family life thesis seems right. This stuff seems not much different for Apuleius and the like. Early First Century Novels

[@launiesoult3248]

Famous words to a carpenter's helper go get me the board structurer in the back of my truck 🚛

[@rogerparkhurst5796]

What date is associated with the writing of these gospels. C.E 80? Or later? What is the age of the oldest document and how/who copied them?

[@alexanderweddle3948]

Any suggestion that these stories may have been written as moral stories to tell children?

[@360.Tapestry]

like the time loki cut so-and-so's hair and blamed it on such-and-such

[@thescoobymike]

If Jesus was their only child, how did they lose him?

[@mjinba07]

I'm reminded of how unaware we tend to be of applying our western, psychosocial values to these ancient writings. Our current ideal of Jesus as a perfect being is almost exclusively characterized as loving, forgiving, and omnipotently wise, and that does not appear to be entirely true for the Bronze Age and the period following Jesus's life in the Levant. Edit: It leads to dilemmas when we insist on a literal interpretation of the bible, even excluding these non-canonical gospels.

[@thomasdequincey5811]

Can you do an episode on the Bauer theory?

[@karlmarx9309]

Really unique point of Mary's view. She knew the boy son of God. But she totally ignored the divine of the boy. So when did the boy get the status of divine?

[@thomasriedel7583]

If you want the concept of non sequitur applied until the cows come home, listen to these two people.

[@SnappyWasHere]

These two would be great professors. They make learning interesting and exciting.

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Well, they would be professors anyway-but only because they are.

[@rachelmaurer3954]

Chris Frilingos is in fact the best professor ever

[@kevinj.mullins6995]

I've also heard that somewhere in these Infancy Gospels it says that Jesus, at age ONE, curses another child and the child dies. I can't seem to find this. Does anyone know where this is found?

[@paulnicholson1906]

Sounds like the second century version of jumping the shark…

[@robertunderwood1011]

The Quran also has a story of Jesus, turning clay into birds

[@weidmanlaw]

Did you ever think that being born in the image of God-but also as a man, it is only sensible to conclude that a child going from boyhood to manhood has to do bad things to learn right from wrong.

[@bobbybailey4623]

Most of the people have never even heard of these writings let alone read them.

[@davidk7529]

Luke’s version only gives an account of the smartass teenager Jesus. Best example for kids!

[@Sxcheschka]

This is just me nerding out, but the part with 5 year old Jesus making clay birds and then having them come to life and fly away, reminds me heavily of Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood where in the anime characters use the power system of alchemy to create things, and it just feels like Jesus is an alchemist from that universe creating things. Really cool mental image for me.

[@howardvenze9956]

Sounds like Mark Twain's The Mysterious Stranger.

[@simonkoster]

Got to ask... So he is *not* the messiah...? (Sorry, I'll show myself out...).

[@carolschweitzer8253]

There is a good chance that Jesus had to face aggressive kids/teens ( just like many youth have to face today) and he could read their true intent and we don't have access to that information.

[@seraphonica]

around 33:00, tickled to think that North Korean dictators follow the mold of ancient biographies

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

Using the metric of things are more likely true if they are "hard" and we can't imagine people making them up, then Jesus must really be like this! ahhh!

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

Suck up to God or you're dead. That's basically always the theme in the bible too.

[@andreagnauck4982]

Go Green Go White!!! Love this channel. Now I love it even more because you have awesome guests. Well worth my time, as always!! Thanks Bart.

[@MossyMozart]

His origin story was like a very dark Megamind.

[@PopeLando]

Disappointed that nobody actually said the phrase in the title. Although Megan didn't take part in the interview, I imagine that that title is something to do with her!

[@catrantery]

Sounds like that Twilight Zone episode with Billy Mumy. "It's a Good Life" 1961

[@planmet]

If this gospel was written more than a hundred years after Jesus' death - there would be no longer any witnesses of his bad behaviour. Obviously these stories were cooked up later to re-enforce Jesus as a supernatural being.

[@jhmoxl]

I wonder how they know its not a satire? I assume they don't entertain that for good reason, but as they describe it, it sounds like something say an Adoptionist could write showing ridiculous the idea of combining fully divine all powerful eternal being in a fully human child would be.

[@robhall3311]

What is the earliest copy in existence? Where was it first found?

[@stevearmstrong6758]

“Although scholars are not unanimous about its date, provenance, or original language, many would postulate that it was written in Greek sometime in the 2nd century CE in the eastern parts of the Roman Empire. Our earliest manuscripts are Syriac and Latin and date from the 5th or 6th century, but later forms of the IGT are attested in a host of other languages, including Greek, Slavonic, Ethiopian, Irish, Georgian, Latin, and Arabic. These versions show considerable variation within the narratives themselves.” Robert Cousland

[@robhall3311]

Thanks so much! Great information!

[@Thagomizer]

I've always loved that bear story, myself. Any God who summons bears to maul the shit out of a group of annoying kids has earned my respect.

[@knawl]

Umm that was a prophet that summoned the bears, not God

[@wRAAh]

28:11 So Jesus magically raises the boy from the dead to vouch for him. Assuming that Jesus DID kill the boy, that boy -afraid as can be- says "Oooh, no, you didn't kill me", afraid of being killed AGAIN by Jesus, for the second time. I don't know how about you, but I'm not particularly fond of this whole Jesus character. Kind of a jerk, I'd say.

[@mikegaudry]

This really makes me sympathize with the mythicist position, because so much of this stuff is just fiction

[@knawl]

It's amazing to me that scolars of biblical texts miss things that are obvious. It seems to me that a good possibility is that part of what these so called infancy Gospels are trying to show the difficulty of an all powerful being manifesting himself as a human with all the frustration that involves and how this being has to learn patience tolerance and compassion in a real life circumstance that all humans have to go through while still having this power and knowledge they don't have. It's ki d of an evolution from being an unyielfding tyrant to a compassionate savior, somewhat of a bridge between the old testament vengeful God and the new testament comlassionate Jesus. The co trast between the old and New testament Gods was a huge controversy at the time. Not saying the rest of this isn't part of that but I think there is a larger picture here. Also why don't these scholars ever think to mention that Thomas might be reffering to himself as the spiritual, mystical twin, equal and in union with the divine as is Jesus instead of merelythe genetic physical twin. They acknowledge the Gospel of Thomas is about unity but then they cling to mundane definitions. I respect Bart quite a bit but I find he, and most scholars atheist or otherwise, that come out of these Christian traditions cling to those Christian closed box concepts a lot more than they realize, even when defining what an atheist and many other things are. Also the eastern influence on Christianity is mostly ignored. it's well known that Buddhist missionary influences were prominent as early as the 3rd century BCE. Many sayings supposedly by Jesus are really almost word. for word eastern from centuries earlier, Confuncian Buddhist and others. The world then smaller was much more interactive than these studies show. The efforts shown by trying to say Jesus went to India are efforts to explain these Eastern influences but the truth is that trade, efforts of eastern authorities and powers like Ashoka, back and forth colonization and just plain intermixing of all ki ds of cultures are a big part of Chriatian evolution and Greece was a hotspot of these activities partly because of its location.

[@Fee___]

Wow.. thank you for the comment i really appreciate your idea.. do you have some update or things that you would like to adjust ? How came people to the idea that jesus went to india ?

[@charlesloeffler333]

Did Joseph know that Jesus was the son of God? If not, that might explain some of his interactions with Jesus in this gospel.

[@ahmedhashim2652]

Greetings all. What’s interesting is the story of Jesus making clay birds that then fly is actually in the Quran.

[@jimmcculloch5825]

Why would Jesus be studying Greek?

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

I studied English - now how dumb is that?

[@jimmcculloch5825]

I have no idea. Did you learn anything?@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr

[@runniehh]

Greek was the official language of Egypt at that time so it's understandable if he studied it

[@jimmcculloch5825]

As a 5 to 10 year old boy in his small village of Nazareth, Jesus would have been lucky to learn to read the spoken language of Aramaic, much less Greek. @@runniehh

[@Theyellowbosss]

@@runniehhwhy not Latin. Romans were the rulers.No reason for Jesus to speak Greek.

[@j_t_p]

The early child Jesus is not unlike the later Jesus of the Gospels in some ways. In this video (23:23) the 5-6 year old Jesus gets inadvertently bumped by another child. The child is cursed by Jesus and the other child instantly dies. In the Gospels, we might be reminded about the fig tree that Jesus also cursed and instantly shriveled up because it did not have figs for Jesus to pick which were out of season. No fault of the fig tree, but it still has to die, like the child in the infancy gospel.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Like father, like son.

[@erinmokarzel5603]

I always thought that these stories made him look more like the anti Christ and also why he was so weird about going home in the new testament

[@russellpiccone6107]

and Jesus never sinned how could he do anything wrong as a kid

[@jeannedouglas9912]

Since Jesus Christ was not earthbound and truly everpresent,everywhere at the same time...Everything is for our benefit. The true author of life ever shares true love. Even having a sense of humor. Guess thats why some theologians ask, what do you think you were doing 4000 years ago? Changing death is beyond understanding. Save by grace. No doubt Christ is crazy cool.

[@Frithogar]

Joseph and Mary must have been the richest family in Nazareth with all that gold, frankincense, and myrrh they got from the Magi.

[@oliverbrownlow5615]

They probably spent it all on their sojourn to Egypt.

[@rbzvncnt]

Would you please discuss the gospel of Biff? There is some nice stuff about his adolescence and young adulthood 😜