The Jewish Left Is Trying to Hold Two Thoughts at Once

Grief moves slowly and war moves quickly. After Hamas assailants killed at least 1,400 Israelis and took hundreds more hostage, Israel dropped more than 6,000 bombs on Gaza in the first week of a conflict that is still ongoing. So far, more than 5,000 Palestinians are reported (www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/...) dead and many more injured. There’s no one way to cover this that reconciles all that is happening and all that needs to be felt.
My approach is going to be to try to cover it from many different perspectives, but I wanted to start with the one I’m closest to, which has felt particularly tricky in recent weeks: that of the Jewish left. So I invited Spencer Ackerman and Peter Beinart on to the show.
Ackerman is an award-winning columnist for The Nation and the author of “Reign of Terror: How the 9/11 Era Destabilized America and Produced Trump (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) ” and the newsletter Forever Wars (foreverwars.substack.com/) . Peter Beinart is an editor-at-large of Jewish Currents, the author of the Beinart Notebook (peterbeinart.substack.com/) newsletter and a professor of journalism at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism. And they’ve each taken up angles I think are particularly important right now: the way that Sept. 11 should inform both Israel’s response and the need to empower different kinds of actors and tactics if we want to see a different future for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
Together we discuss the goals behind Hamas’s initial attack on Israeli Jewish civilians, how the attack changed the psychology of Jews living in and out of Israel and what Israel is trying to achieve in its military response.
Mentioned:
“There Is a Jewish Hope for Palestinian Liberation. It Must Survive. (www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/op...) ” by Peter Beinart
“A Deal Signed in Blood (www.thenation.com/article/wor...) ” by Spencer Ackerman
Book Recommendations:
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine (us.macmillan.com/books/978162...) by Rashid Khalidi
An Oral History of the Palestinian Nakba (www.bloomsbury.com/us/oral-hi...) edited by Nahla Abdo and Nur Masalha
Israel’s Secret Wars (groveatlantic.com/book/israel...) by Ian Black
The Question of Palestine (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) by Edward W. Said
Strangers in the House (profilebooks.com/work/strange...) by Raja Shehadeh
Hamas Contained (www.sup.org/books/title/?id=2...) by Tareq Baconi
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [e-mail].
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

[@Anouargama]

As a member of the muslim diaspora in Europe I must admit that going into this conversation I wasn’t expecting much from American-Jews about the Palestinian cause and their plight. I commend you guys for emphasizing the common humanity of Palestinians and Jews. You guys proved me 100% wrong and it proves that decent people wherever they are from and whatever culture/religion they hail from can see eye to eye and agree on what is humane and inhumane and move forward from there. I pray for long lasting peace for 🇵🇸 and 🇮🇱

[@quintrankid8045]

If you are a Muslim, I wonder, can you please tell me if what Hamas did on October 7th is within the rules of war as Islam defines them?

[@Anouargama]

@@quintrankid8045 Not sure if an average Muslim can reply to this question without having studied Islam in depth... If there are 1,8 billion Muslims in the world I would be surprised if 1% has studied Islam in depth so take what I say with a grain of salt and as an opinion. Most people know their religion superficially. I believe that nowhere in the Islamic faith killing of innocent civilians is justified. I also never heard it anywhere. Not when I was growing up and not as an adult. I hope that answers your question.

[@DavidValladares]

​@@quintrankid8045I have the same question for you as in regards to the IDF and the Israeli government and how it constantly kills women and children

[@quintrankid8045]

@@Anouargama Thank you for answering. I'm not sure I completely understood your answer. Did you mean to imply that the members of Hamas who did this are not Muslim? Did you mean to imply that the October 7th victims are not innocent civilians? Or did you mean to say that there has been a change in the Muslim world now that this has happened?

[@Anouargama]

@@quintrankid8045 For me HAMAS are definitely Muslims but their act of terrorism is not something they can claim to have done in name of Islam or that Islam gives permission to do what they did. Those are two separate things if you understand what I mean. The citizens killed in Israel are innocent!

[@jeffreybookman8982]

The Abraham accords disproved the idea that the Muslim countries were totally supportive of the “Palestinian cause” and that peace with the Palestinians had to come first . That has proven false . I don’t see Muslim countries offering refuge to Palestinians living in Gaza . There own self interest comes first . That has opened up the possibility I described before.

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

The Muslim countries don't want the war because they don't want the refugees. We don't want the refugees

[@18_rabbit]

would need some clarification on your point? Overall we dont really know what the gulf states motivations are, and imho, some of them, and some of Israel's neighbors have always been non-receptive to Palestinian migrants largely orginally bcuz of political ideas and beliefs that Israel was not legitimately in posession of the land of Israel. As long as that silent stance is held, the Arab world as a whole will remain dysfunctional, i guarantee it. I grew up with several gulf states arabs & nonarabs from gulf states, in the U.S. And my closest friends in life have been jewish ppl in the U.S., liberal folks like i am.

[@expat2023]

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.

[@corndoggydogdog]

It's possible to grieve for Palestinians and Israelis. This must be the starting point for outside observers that could have an impact on the conflict.

[@theciakilledjfk5973]

It's also possible to do the math and realize that the death toll is outrageously disproportionate.

[@corndoggydogdog]

@@theciakilledjfk5973 Agreed.

[@carimawebb9498]

Excellent show. I’ve passed by it in my feed many times due to my fear that it would be similar to the gaslighting & intellectual dishonesty of a Aaron David Miller who is seemingly marooned in the late 1970s, early 1980s re: the reality of the Palestine/Israel conflict. However, I had heard Mr. Beinart give a very solid comment on this current horror & so thought I’d give it a go. I was pleasantly surprised & encouraged that not everyone w/in the, more or less, mainstream media environment has lost their minds & is genuinely familiar w/the history of the region & understands the humanity of Palestinians as well as Israelis. So thank you.

[@lukaskywalker7791]

The "jewish left" sounds as competent as the american left

[@scotthullinger4684]

I think you mean ... as "incompetent" - The Left are totally incompetent, regardless of gender, age, religion, sexuality. If you're part of the Left, then your goal is to royally mess up ever great thing, including the nation.

[@donot314]

I wonder how this discussion would play out after the interrogation of the Hamas prisoners was released? These men are either the most level-headed people on the face of the earth , or they did not lose anyone on October 7.

[@junglecat_rant]

There are people who are able to have a level headed and sober conversation even if they are grieving or appalled by the events happened on October, 7th in Israel. Without this capability we as humans would still be politically and emotionally in the middle ages. Who would want that?

[@gabrielsyme4180]

Progressives have more sympathy with the criminals and terrorists than their victims.

[@ceceliablair9177]

Yes, we need a post-tribal politics. Can you also image how helpful it would be if there could be a great, collective grief ritual, to mourn those who have been killed by both sides, to mourn all the precious lives lost, then to go on together as one people. This won’t happen, people being defensive and me first as most of us are, but this is the right and healing direction, in my opinion.

[@quintrankid8045]

Are you going to include the Gazans who appeared to be celebrating on October 7th in the people who are going to mourn the deaths on both sides?

[@kristalkristal2506]

Amen to this.

[@bluedreams517]

I work in couples counseling...so my first source of knowledge in conflict is on the microlevel. I once had a couple that had serious broken their relationships over the years. Everything the other person said would immediately trigger and lead to defensiveness of the other. Grieving their lost connection couldn't fully happen until I helped them both take accountability for their part in the broken relationship. If there's any hope for peace, there's going to have to be a time where both sides recognize the truths in the others' narratives. Don't know how that can be pulled off on the large scale and I don't know how to get past the vocabulary that shores up the defensiveness and hostility. But that's where my gut leans.

[@quintrankid8045]

@@bluedreams517 I respectfully disagree. I've read parts of the Hamas Charter and it suggests to me that it would be impossible for Israel to make peace with Hamas no matter how willing Israel is. May I suggest that you take a look at the Charter? I'd be very curious to hear how you might move forward from that.

[@bluedreams517]

@@quintrankid8045I said nothing about making peace with hamas. The palestinians aren't Hamas. Things that insist the other side cannot exist in the land, whether de facto or overt, would have to go. As for the people who are in Hamas...there's different models and methods for how to manage that. There's the tribunal/war crimes method and there's examples likelike Rawanda and S. Africa... Where there was a process of reconciliation and reintegration for most. I could imagine a mix of both...where the masterminds meet justice via tribunal and those in the org go through a process of reconciliation and reintegration to help stop the process of hostility and vengeance....to help heal wounds.

[@SamAbuOmar]

It's 1 AM and I'm listening to you two. I feel hope for peace when I hear some people trying to talk more rationally. I am deeply saddened by everything happening. The emotion mainly is sadness and hopelessness. I see my wife's face who's Palestinian-in-origin looking like she just came from a funeral with every bit of news turning her face into one of a person in terror and grief at the same time. I think everyone's mission is to educate people around the world about the humanity of all and that should not be forgotten. Shortsightedness seems to dominate politics. I hope as species we evolve in a way to recognize unity of all mankind, I can only imagine what we could have accomplished, a true peace on earth. One dream of mine is to cycle throughout continents in the world. Imagine any human can travel into borders feeling like part of a greater collective and would not have to be questioned for hours on any border. Just imagine that.

[@grahamt5924]

We are different religions that each beleive is superior to the other and ee have a situation with the Jews, that they have faced thousands of years of trauma from pogroms, attempted genocide. They are now going to cling to the only homeland they have, and if they feel like they are going to be overrun, they will do whatever they see fit to stop that happening.

[@18_rabbit]

thank u for your thoughts. I am not personally linked to any palestinians (and not to any arabs either, even though i grew up with various arabs in my own house here in the U.S. I've always had a good feeling about the arabs i've met and known, and about the jewish ppl i've met and known and my closest friends ever have been american jews, one family) , but have always been a close student of Israeli politics and the history of the region. I'm just over 50 y.o. so i've seen the key moments, and i studied in D.C. with some of the best international politics ppl on the planet, long ago. This situation is nearly Fubar, ie ultra bad. It requires good and kind minds who are not blinded by anger. Professional leaders and military officers are wrong when they cannot remove either actual anger, ie bitter deep anger, or even the appearance, the PR public image of things like what we've heard out of the Israeli cabinet, and possibly some military officers. Once the language changes like that, then u know that an international emergency military coalition would/will be needed IF not having palestinian little girls with their femurs open to air while the Doctor palpates the bone to figure out the damage and fix the wound, while she is semi-conscious, on the floor. I've seen a lot of horror and nothing touches that, except for Syrian pain in '16, which was THE signal that 'conservative' brutality was upon us in the world. This israeli and palestinian situation is entirely political as a cause. That is clear. I'm someone who DOES trust the vast majority of the Israeli military and probably most of the gvt apparatus that is how the admin gets things done. But in truth, Biden is not saying enough, as usual, so an impression of impunity is mounting and that is unacceptable and even ppl like me who very pro-Israel in general terms, will ultimately possibly boycott Israel in any future that does not remedy this situation going forward. This past two months has changed Israeli and modern social jewish history, so far, though we shall see what the actual damages are in Gaza later of course, and what Israel could have done or not done. Facts are not clear yet at all, but they are not looking right.

[@churblefurbles]

The entire left is based on double think at this point, what's new.

[@ninakalen-melamed4654]

Shame on you!!!

[@victorshikhman]

Thanks for inviting two Palestinians to speak, Ezra. Maybe next time you will invite some Jews on? I recommend Haviv Rettig Gur of the Times of Israel.

[@chasdawes7541]

Thanks for this pov. My favorite of your podcasts up to this point.

[@sansoucie1969]

Isn't is astounding that we have laws against not buying from someone?

[@nsh1980gmail]

It’s weird

[@NotesNNotes]

it's weird, it's astounding, it's fascist

[@grahamt5924]

What laws are you talking about.

[@sansoucie1969]

@@grahamt5924 The Israel Anti-Boycott Act (IABA) (H.R. 1697; S. 720) was a proposed anti-BDS law and amendment to the Export Administration Act of 1979 designed to allow U.S. states to enact laws requiring contractors to sign pledges promising not to boycott any goods from Israel, or their contracts would be terminated. As of 2020, 32 state legislatures have already passed bills similar to IABA.

[@grahamt5924]

@@sansoucie1969 thanks for explaining something I have never heard of

[@ELJason2006]

Peter Beinart is always wrong Wish SAR would not have allowed his kids in the school.

[@ceceliablair9177]

Best show-conversation and thoughts to go forward with-thank you and everyone who can open beyond the narrow perspective of only my pain, my needs and my aspirations count to one that looks towards all human beings as one community.

[@Anouargama]

Amen brother, or sister 😉

[@eddievangundy4510]

How on Earth does this guy have a show given his past behavior?

[@Anouargama]

@@eddievangundy4510 I judge only on what I heard in this show and this was an excellent discussion about both sides.

[@utubefreshie]

​@eddievangundy4510 What past behavior? I think you have him mixed up with Ezra Miller who is an actor and a different person altogether.

[@smurfette1509]

@@eddievangundy4510 I don't think it's fair to Ezra Klein to have someone make some kind of vague comment that sounds like there were problems with his past behavior. Please be specific. What did he do? Otherwise, I'll assume that you got him mixed up with someone else or you're into slander.

[@ronkrate609]

EZRA's AUDIO relatively poor as is often the case. The other two participants were crystal clear.

[@corndoggydogdog]

Love the idea, that a new party of both Israelis and Palestinians could be created to specifically bridge that gap...

[@claudemadrid4950]

It already exists... but it has been an electoral failure because, unfortunately, 75% of Jewish people in Israel consider themselves as openly racist... 25% of Jewish Israelis don’t consider themselves as racist and think Israel is an Apartheid state...But, unfortunately, 75% of Jewish Israelis don't think Israel is an Apartheid state while admitting they are definitely racist towards Arabs and Black people... This is definitely the main problem in Israel.

[@carlosmalveiro2068]

😂😂😂

[@senorpoodles1755]

There's no such thing as a Palestinian.

[@freedahlogic8368]

In Israel ‘Islamic democrats’ make up 5% of the Knesset en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset

[@melrose2853]

Y aren’t u talking about hostages?

[@WUWHere]

In a sense, Palestinians in the WB and Gaza are prisoners of an occupying state, not to mention the many who are in Israeli prisons or detained without charge. Care to comment?

[@kathleentrinity7367]

Excellent show! Your discussion deals in depth with what is being glossed over in mainstream media. Thank you...our minds and sentiments crave this.

[@austinbaker3220]

I really love the perspective from Ezra and his guests. You can really see their love for people and peace. Pushing for liberty for all, instead of being selfish or unfair. I hope someday Palestinians are able to live free, Israel becomes more liberal, and terrorism becomes far less common in Israel and Palestine.

[@thomasmitchell7645]

In South Africa there was the multiracial Liberal Party, that was mostly white with a few blacks. It voluntarily disbanded in 1968 after such parties were outlawed under apartheid laws. In Northern Ireland there was the non-sectarian Alliance Party consisting of both Catholic Irish and Protestant British and for most of its existence polled about 5-7 % in local and parliamentary elections. Its peak performance was just under 15 % in 1979--outpolling the DUP. In Israel Hadash is an Arab party that contains a cenrtain amount of non-Zionist Jews.

[@joelshapiro3657]

Wow - sorry but this was terrible. Beinardt’s views are not only innacurate and dishonest but completely incompatible with peace. And Klein didn’t challenge him on any of it. I’m going to reach out to Klein to offer a detailed commentary. Very disturbing.

[@mns8732]

This podcast is a good start. I hope the Times hosted other podcasts in the past about this issue.

[@keegs3154]

Thank you Ezra.

[@minademian]

@NYTPodcasts there are some characters at the end of the links cited in the description.

[@amosbatto3051]

I honestly want to know what is the long term strategy of right wing Israelis. It seems insane to not allow the Palestinians to have a viable state and continue a policy of de facto apartheid. Electing politicians like Netanyahu whose goal is to annex the illegal settlements into Israel and to expand them is very irresponsible. As far as I can tell, their goal appears to be creating more conflict and war. The only hope for long term peace is either Israel has to pull the settlements out of the West Bank and make it possible for Palestine to function as a viable state economically with proper access to resources (water, electricity, port access, etc) or Israel has to become a state that incorporates Palestine and treats all Jews, Palestinians, Arabs and Christians equally, and has policies of economic and social inclusion.

[@user-ry2qs7xf9k]

Do you think Israel is an independent state?!

[@flavoredwallpaper]

I think it was a huge, huge mistake to expand the settlements. There is really no feasible way to pull out at this point. There are like half a million Israelis in the West Bank. Ordering them out would cause a civil war. Lots of people were pissed off about the evictions from Gaza, and that was only like 8-9k Israelis kicked out. So it's not going to happen. The best they can do at this point is land exchange.

[@kdolo1887]

It's probably the same as what the Umayyad did in North Africa and what they tried to do in the Iberian, slaughter and breed out the indigenous until you can memory hole them and no one cares anymore. This is why no one expects Muslims to give back North Africa, they didn't leave enough people to complain about it and they didn't write down their atrocities the way the West did.

[@KaoriKino]

Pretty sure their endgame is to expel the Palestinians and have a Jewish state within Biblical borders. Right-wing Israelis are actually the one group I feel relatively confident that I know what they want.

[@MarianneExJohnson]

It's not insane if you consider that Israel simply wants to eradicate the Palestinians altogether. That explains all their actions over the last 75 years, including their refusal to allow an actual Palestinian state to form, their continued theft of more and more Palestinian land, and how they ignore any UN resolutions on the issue (to the extent that the U.S. isn't vetoing them all). All of this is horrible, of course, but they are getting away with it, and with full economic, military, and diplomatic support of the U.S. They have no incentive to stop.

[@pezeron24]

Very interesting discussion. Very insightful.

[@ceceliablair9177]

Thank you, Ezra! Times have also changed now with all the available news, from accurate history and analysis to many kinds of propaganda. Also, the Western world has been going through a heightened focus on various classes of victimhood and social abuse. Sensitivity has been heightened towards the marginalized and harmed. So an exclusive sympathy towards Israelis whose history as a group includes much victimhood, as we all know, is no longer happening-because the world can also see, learn about and reflect upon the history and situation of the Palestinian people too, which is one of oppression- from expulsions, to attacks, deprivations and murder-by a Jewish state backed up by the US, the greatest military and economic power in the world. This part of the story is much more visible and evident now.

[@Anouargama]

Very well said!

[@chiquitafeldberg8259]

They should have made a peace deal. This attack by Hamas was done to distinguish the Abraham Accords.

[@beyhancagritrock3189]

Thank you for providing such an incisive, thoughtful, analysis about what is happening. Being both Muslim and Jewish this has been a nightmare for me and my family. Great thinking, great insight on the perils of normalization, analysis of Obama’s attempts, the importance of restraining (reversing?) settlements as part of the path forward, and recommendations on books. Wow! You guys give me hope.

[@noragutberg]

I can understand what the HAMAS wanted by taking hostages and/or attacking the military bases, but why the atrocities in the civilian villages? Please, explain

[@resolecca]

What apartheid, this is not apartheid and saying so erases the suffering and history of south African, and the Jim crow south, were alot of us fought and died along black Americans. But to you its like we haven't given the Palestinians numerous chances to have their own state which have all been rejected, and that we have Gaza to the Palestinians and this is the result, Egypt closes the boarder to refugees but we are blamed am actually against violence, Netanyahu, and the reaction to the terrorism as we are playing right into Hamas hands but Israel has have every right to exist and Hamas would happily wipe us off the face of the earth and you would congratulate them wouldn't you, the self hatred with you is real

[@jchan9761]

W bank

[@paddleduck5328]

Excellent talk. Thank you.

[@lulitmelake7534]

Appreciate this program to clearly help me see the bigger picture of the true value of human & humanity. Thank you 1:04:44

[@kdolo1887]

Yes, we have to look past the paultry 1000 innocent Jews killed and think about the thousand more Militants that suffer in Gaza.

[@lulitmelake7534]

The way I see it, we get lost in judging each other in justification of killing each other. The point is death is inevitable but when you start labeling each death and trying to not only own natures gift of land and soil - we also start owning each other. The pettiness of humans are at the highest point. We should quietly watch where our mind goes from admiration to grabbing and owning. What’s worst is to think that outsmarting each other is considered smart and superior. Wish all of us humans see life the way it reveals itself and not the way we paint it out to be.

[@kdolo1887]

@@lulitmelake7534 uh-huh. Can we condense this sentiment and get it embroidered on a pillow? Middle-aged white women would love it.

[@peterquennellnyc]

Jewish moderates and left (noble people I admire) could make huge gains with a development model that works. At present they seem back on their heels. Here's a tip. UN development (which was my career) was remade in 1970 (under a GA resolution) as a giant systems enhancement machine. Thus WHO (medical systems), ITU (cellphone systems), IMO (maritime systems), FAO (agricultural systems), ICAO (aviation systems) and so on, for more than 30 areas. Their working groups of experts from many countries are INTENSE. There is nothing more engrossing and empowering than working on systems that could impact the entire world. Nobody even notices where everyone else comes from. The East & South Asian "miracle" was sharply systems focused. Moderate jews and moslems could, in Israel (which has a rather unimpressive GDP percapita) and the entire Middle East, work to build hundreds of such working groups, and invest themselves in processes to better all concerned (yeah, there is a bad need across the US as well!!).

[@chinibubu411]

The problem is safety, security, and trust in a region where a small nation is surrounded by other nations that would like to see its downfall. If that can’t be addressed, then nothing else matters.

[@18_rabbit]

not just would like to see its downfall but never worked against the militant violence that has been running hard since the 1960's till now! I'm a dove, but even I know Israeli history which is the most fascinating and easy to study history of all modern places anywhere! If Israel needs, then a coalition of the willing, international forces, will help secure the entire situation, and that may mean Hezbollah will be quashed, Hamas also. There is no alternative. This is 25 years in the making and time is up. I personally will not stand to see yet more ppl including children suffering in agony. It's a stone cold fact that conservatives globally have pushed militant intolerant attitudes and have stoked fear and anger all over this planet. When the succesful nations, like Israel, cannot react appropriately, then we know things are way too close to FUBAR. Do not let it happen. We need total information release and transparency or there really WILL be a problem for Israel going forward visavis the USA, i promise that. (and i'm extraordinarily pro-Israel, to be clear, but things have changed in the past two years)

[@macaron3141592653]

Why does that matter more than the safety of the people around this small nation (which is more than capable of defending itself, has a very well funded military and is a nuclear power)? Why does Israel's perceived sense of safety matter more than the real danger that the IDF poses to Palestinians on a daily basis?

[@emc2balance]

Thanks for deepening my understanding. 👍

[@theodorapriska9860]

Thank you so much for this very moving conversation

[@sandravaughn3181]

This is a great conversation. I’m sharing.

[@jacktran7024]

as a non jew supporting 🇮🇱 til the end bc israel is the light….i can’t see good coming from muslim rule/culture

[@lauracastor3713]

I started listening to your series on Israel's war on Gaza because I felt I needed to hear and understand more perspectives that would help me empathized with Israeli Jews than I was getting in my feed (thanks to KZbin algorithms). Ezra, I am deeply grateful for your honesty and courage in bringing some much needed context through these conversations with your guests. They are some of the most illuminating dialogues I have heard since October 7. I was especially struck by the ideas Peter Beinart suggests about the need for a post-tribal politics in Israel that sees itself as neither Jewish, nor Palestinian. I also appreciated the comment about needing to do what is needed in order to push the boundaries of what is possible. Wise words andd much food for thought here. I feel acutely the need to avoid empathy fatigue these days. This show (the particular one and the Ezra Klein Show more generally) provide me with solace and some glimmers of hope.

[@evelynramos445]

Good your here on the job!

[@maryjoolson344]

Correction: The Nakba (catastrophe) refers to the founding of the modern State of Israel. An Israeli Palestinian family who stayed in 1948 told me that

[@SB-by5mt]

900 thousand Jews suffered Nakba following 1948 with expulsions from all Muslim countries but given their industriousness and thirst for life, rebuilt lives wherever life took them. Palestinians instead choose to be eternal refugees by resorting to armed and violent resistance.

[@Borjigin.]

@@SB-by5mt This is a bad take and the exact sort of rhetoric that Europeans deployed against Jews for millennia - the 'forever refugees', unable to assimilate, forever foreign, not valuing of life and a contamination on the body politic.

[@innos3ntCrim3]

@@Borjigin. yet they have Brothers in various other countries. Jews had NOWHERE to go. Without Israel, Jews can go into the sea, or to America, and we’re still hated despite generations of attempted assimilation.

[@vcab6875]

Brilliant Chivalrous discussion.

[@agusmonasteriobaldor]

Thank you

[@evamurray2564]

It is hard to listen to these guys talk as if Israel just oppresses Palestinians for giggles or sport. Every response or policy Israel makes, whether good, indifferent, or bad, is a result of Arab nations attacking and / or terrorism. 800,000 jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab nations after they Arab nations lost the 1948 war of independence. Israel just wants peace and has accepted every peace deal to be met with intifada terrorism. Israel and Egypt both put defensive walls and blockades as both these countries were sick of hamas and its terrorism. They didn't put the wall up to oppress. Long before Israel was even created the grand mufti of Palestine went to see hitler to discuss the eradication of the jews.

[@susanstein6604]

Whatever happened to the first line of Hillel's moat famous quote, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? I'm on the Jewish left but that doesn't mean I can't see the flaws of the Jewish left which is to quick to dismiss antisemitism as "criticism of Israel" and to blame Israel exclusively and ignore the ineffectiveness an the incompetence of the Israeli left. Netanyahu came to power and has stayed in power until now because of the violence of Palestinians.

[@scposeur]

I’m only a minute in, and pleasantly and surprisingly pleased. I don’t dislike Ezra Klein but am often way less centrist than him. Good for Ezra for trying so hard here

[@marwar819]

Interesting that the media is not reporting on Palestinians who have condemned Hamas' attack. Interestingly too, I recently heard a journalist say that it is unlawful to do an interview with Hamas. True?

[@alquinn8576]

what? NYTimes prints stuff straight out of Hamas propaganda arm -- must not be illegal to interview them

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

Ever hear the Media say “people under occupation has the right to fight back” as it says in the UN charter

[@stopato5772]

When Israeli zionits migrated to Palestine, why didn't they bring PEACE with them? Why is it so hard to allow Palestinians their homeland and Zionits their homeland? Why only one sided when discussing hostages and terrorism , when zionits brought that luggage in 1946?

[@Matt-dt7cf]

It's becoming clearer to me that most problems of the world ought to be seen as conflict between forces of fanatical extremism vs forces of moderation and compromise. We need a leader who will organize the center and act with as much force as the extremists against them.

[@user-ry2qs7xf9k]

Well the US and Western governments used to that at least publically, now extremism is infecting Western politics.

[@G0ldbl4e]

@@user-ry2qs7xf9k Western politics only ever revolved around apparent "moderate" positions because they held enough cards to ensure they could force people into unreasonable situations to create opportunities for committing enormous amounts of violence.

[@kdolo1887]

lol, yeah. Radical Centrism! Man these comments are hilarious.

[@mnemonija]

Member Yitzhak Rabin? How did it work out for him? Or Arafat for that matter?

[@spelcheak]

Haven’t watched yet but this seems double plus ungood

[@Magani79]

Deleting comments?

[@Jszar]

They've probably been reported and hidden until reviewed.

[@YOBREADKNIGHT]

Update: 20k and counting.

[@ajijixe]

Very smart people.

[@butchfriday]

This was an excellent podcast!

[@corndoggydogdog]

Agreed!

[@danieljulian4676]

A lot depends on whether an observer of this conflict finds a close correlation, or only a tenuous one, between Palestinian support for Hamas and Israel's policy on Gaza. What is the sentiment behind any plea for mercy that does not ask itself about whether it has performed such a correlation? This is important, because the kind of "data" that are used to try to prove such a correlation are in the domain of social science, and there is some irony in calling it "science". Sure, one can say, it's all we have, and so such questions are not resolved.

[@stopato5772]

It is emotions, not data, that pushed this narrative of hate. Are you saying data can find a peaceful path?

[@kristalkristal2506]

I appreciate and also learn a lot from your work. Thank you for all that you do.

[@Santirata]

Some good points but also some extremely naive viewpoints

[@amiramaz]

I always been suspicious of Ezra being so leftist dogmatic sometimes with relation to US politics. I'm gladly say I'm all for his latest podcasts on the war

[@alfredopampanga9356]

In a time of existential danger for Israel it’s not a time for your fine , tormented philosophising.

[@evamurray2564]

It is hard to listen to these guys talk as if Israel just oppresses Palestinians for shits and giggles. Every response or policy Israel makes, whether good, indifferent, or bad, is a result of Arab nations attacking and / or terrorism. 800,000 jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab nations after they Arab nations lost the 1948 war of independence. Israel just wants peace.

[@Ryanandboys]

Into town here is that countries only exist because they have the military heart power behind their claim. The level of nation state it is anarchy unfortunately and Might s right thinking that Palestine will have their own state when they are aggressive towards Israel is absolutely hilarious. It does not matter what we think or what we feel or what we wish The facts on the ground are and Palestine is not strong enough have their own state make it from Israelis This idea of international law and also laughable There is no authority with hard power to enforce it international laws pretty much whatever America says it is in America likes Israel So Israel will stay or as long as that is the case or another grouping of powerful nation sides with Palestine and can take the land by force.

[@SheWhoRemembers]

Two thoughts as opposed to none?

[@eliresnick]

This show puts the date Palestinian Muslim soldiers started targetting Jewish civilians in the 1970s. Hamas' charter puts that (in its view sacred) date back in 1939. That discounts the conquests by the Caliphate (which forced people it captured to convert or die), and the Ottoman Empire (which enslaved its captives, and practiced slavery until the 20th Century). Your view of the Nakba leaves out that several Muslim countries invaded Israel at the same time. I hope each side offers peace terms every day. We need the UN to start requiring that all countries at war wake up each morning and explain what they are fighting for, and what will allow them to make lasting peace. This will put pressure on Hamas to either move on from its genocidal fanaticism or publicly admit that that it is, on paper, religiously committed to genocide. And it will force Israel to accept that it can be more secure by giving Gaza independence in exchange for the return of hostages and a recognition of the rights of Jews everywhere to religious freedom. Without public dialogue, Gaza's official terms for peace are too awful to contemplate.

[@gabrielsyme4180]

Israel is the only state in the Middle East where Jews and Arabs have equal political status.

[@melrose2853]

Making military decisions on emotion. This is not a good leader. They r run by emotion and empathy. That is very dangerous for a people.

[@marwar819]

Really interesting discussion from leftist Jews. I'm a recovering leftist so I expected to be annoyed with the discussion. I wasn't.

[@grantwithers]

Fight through the urge to be a leftist

[@melrose2853]

War is he human way of deciding things. Pathological empathy is selfish and one sided

[@nancygawlowicz2562]

I distil a lot of this information on the current Israel situation down to this idea. There have been Palestinians living under Israeli government with small problems. I don't see Israel having any problem with the people who live in Palestine. Their problem, and what should be the Palestinian's problem, is Hamas and the way Hamas has been stealing the resources, and the hopes, of the people in Gaza.

[@Carroty_Peg]

Back to everyone claiming a dusty ol' book is right... their dusty ol' book.

[@jimmymcgee4101]

Invite the Palestine people home. Have more social parties with both groups together . Shared history together would be good .

[@Manuel941]

Open your Kibbutz to Palestinian families and let them be citizens of a single state where Palestinians and jews live together and get married

[@noalevylive]

If there's a Palestinian watching this: I'm an Israeli, I believe in two state solution. Please comment here if you do too.

[@goldenphoenixpublish]

Socrates would be proud!

[@milosbhat6920]

Unfortunately there is often a confusion between rationality and rationalization evident in many interpretations concerning the motivations of the participants. Under very constrained conditions one can talk about rational methodologies employed in a conflict situation usually on technical issues. But never about human motivations. Alone the fact that we are here talking about conflict of tribes with entrenched beliefs about the cosmos and community is a tribute to human irrationality. One could nevertheless talk about rational behavior, albeit only in relative terms, if the motivations behind it were directed at long time welfare of ones tribe, that would automatically include the welfare of the other. It seems more like expediency rather than well thought out long time plans on both sides. Absolutely reactive. Pumped by beliefs on ancient scripts rather than any notion of modern secular states. An example is the so-called western "rational", astoundingly often unanimously repeated with mind boggling self conviction is the statement: “The utterly unprovoked assault of Hamas” This statement is as rational as believing that the Palestinians are free from the effects of the law of Newton, that predicts a reaction to every force. No the the Palestinians, the Muslims, the Arabs are irrational and their actions are not subject to natural laws! “Utterly unprovoked assault of Hamas” a chorus of western statesmen! Israel has a problem. It probably has not fully decided about its destiny. Is it a theocratic or a secular state? Seems sometimes like a theocratic state that welcomes all Jews, thereby increasing the potency of orthodox religious non-liberal sentiments in a secular state and empowering hardliners and by far the worst, increasing the thirst for more land. There is unfortunately only so much of it. Perhaps Israel should try making the dessert more habitable instead of burning Palestinians settlements down. BTW you guys are just unbelievably truthful and as enlightened as I wish our world leaders to be and this from a one time Muslim. But then next to the Greeks, many Jews have been real champions of enlightenment and humanism both! Therefore hardly a surprise!

[@soulfireonfire6423]

Or.. it’s real simple ! This is two ends against the middle. The middle is civilians from both sides! While all those committing the harm, stay completely unscathed ! Meaning the leaders of both sides!

[@milosbhat6920]

@@soulfireonfire6423 Contextualizing it that way unfortunately does not give us a more rational approach to solving this problem. The masses of otherwise loving dads and granddads can become even more savage than the uniformed semi-robots of Hitler Stalin, Mao or Leopold. A few examples: The Jim Crow lynching of blacks Rohingya in Burma, the Hutu and Tutsi, Yugoslavia, Indonesia. You just need a good story to shut off their cortical faculties, send their serotonin levels plummetting, increase adrenaline and their voracious appetite for dopamine. Human primates exceed even the Chimpanzee in killing frenzies. In Indonesia they would even march with a music band during their killing sprees to the villages. Priests and Shamans or foxy media or even Facebook media can initiate or facilitate genocides and yet have ostensibly as clean hands as Pontius Pilatus or like Facebook never be fined a penny for facilitating the death and plight of millions of Rohingya. I was once too believed in some kind of linear progression of mankind like Pinker or Harrai or for that matter, the founding fathers. Yes in that ideal world, the classification that you are suggesting would be a valid approach, hard but not Impossible. But now seeing what happened and is happening in the USA alone, makes me more inclined toward a cyclic view of history and human cultural evolution that moreover has a paleolithic hardware at its base. Yes all empires go through a cycle of birth, blossoming and the inevitable death but our hardware hardly changes.

[@Boymanjusri]

Why not ask Palestinian people, do you want a democracy or theocracy? And what if the majority says theocracy? Isreal’s turning right has always been a reaction to its survival environment. Nobody lives in a vacuum. Easy for you to criticize an Isreal government because you live in a demarcation so sorry. Impossible for you to say anything about Palestinians and Hamas because that’s where the real problem is.

[@milosbhat6920]

@@Boymanjusri Thanks for stating your opinion. It reveals your knowledge of history and perhaps also my incompetence in making a point. In any case I don't need to add anything to your bulletproof evidence of where the problem lies. Congratulations.

[@frederiquecouture3924]

➗. Thank You.

[@carolinemaybe]

Thank you from the bottom of my broken heart.

[@alexiswallace2656]

Hamas is the oppressor of 'Palestinians', not Israel

[@amrahmed7856]

Israel was founded on genocide

[@smartpig2386]

are you stupid? Hamas exists solely due to israel operating a concentration camp. It is incredible that Jews were the first to create a concentration camp after WW2. Not that they did this on their own of course, the west and europe helped them conquer the "palestinian savages".

[@browngreen933]

Your analysis is hardly credible without discussing the American-Israeli Political Action Committee's (AIPAC) influence on the U.S. Congress.

[@noahman27]

AIPAC stands for American Israel Public Affairs Committee

[@rodbennett1133]

aipac is a cancer on bodypolitic.

[@browngreen933]

@@noahman27 Okay, although political action and influence are its mission.

[@frazel22]

As a Muslim, I pray to God to bless all these Brave, Intelligent and Fair Jewish Academics, Historians, Lawyers, Medical Doctors, Analysts and Journalists who are speaking up not with emotions, but with intellectual arguments and objectivity!

[@jeffreybookman8982]

Despair alone without financial support does not lead to terrorism. It is all the money that has flowed to the Palestinian cause that has created terrorism . There has been plenty of despair throughout the world that did not lead to terrorism.

[@jeffreybookman8982]

For one , Venezuela ,where people have been literally starving but have not developed a terrorist resistance. Many places people live in despair .

[@calj2090]

❤

[@emilym5915]

This was such a excellent conversation thank you Ezra.

[@TOOTSWEET61]

The Jews have been in Palestine and Jerusalem every bit as long as the Palestinians. They are entitled to be there. It says in the bible that the Jews were attacked and overrun by the Phillistines. That name sounds a lot like Palestinians. Although it conveniently says when you look it up that the Phillistines were wandering nomads. The Israelites were given a Barren piece of desert in Palestine and as the Jews do. they have created a prosperous.beautiful state. The Palestinians whose leaders keep them poor and oppressed simply want to live in Israel by taking control of it. They want the prosperity and freedoms and they are willing to genocide the Jews to get their hands on the beautiful oasis that is Israel. Hamas and the imans blame Israel for the people's awful lives to deflect blame away from themselves.

[@fidomusic]

The Jews were a minority. There had been Jewish immigration since the 1880s and sped up during the 20th century, but even in 1948 only 31% of the population of Palestine were Jews, and they were "given" 53% of the land by the UN. The Israelis then proceeded to ethnically cleans Palestinians from the 53% and beyond into Galilee in the north. 200 towns and villages were described and there were several massacres, of which Dier Yassin is only one. All this is well documented in the academic literature, including in the book, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Jewish Israeli author Ilan Pappe, professor of history at Exeter University. There are many other historical accounts. The fact of ethnic cleansing of Palestine, creating 750,000 refugees, is the historical consensus. It is true that there have always been Jews living Palestine. But there is a difference between living there with Palestinians and creating an ethno nationalist Jewish state. It is the creation of that state that has been the cause of the problems. Palestinians don't called it the Nakba (catastrophe) for nothing.

[@vcliburn]

Everything you said is…or at least should be…common knowledge to all intellectually honest people. But unfortunately, you’ve chosen the wrong forum to voice such a view. The so-called “peace loving and victimized Palestinians” have chosen Hamas as their leader. And they have also repeatedly rejected the notion of a two state solution (with the ultimate goal of living…or more accurately, coexisting…in peace peace).

[@hegeliandialecticproblemre538]

Well you just secured the next generation of freedom resistance fighters I don't blame them sure you would do the same

[@18_rabbit]

big nyet on that one. This situation has nothing even closely simlar as precedent. Nothing, ever.! So things are going to change a lot, no matter what anyone wants. As usual on this planet, an ultra conservative traditionalist reactionary gvt was so distracted & had distracted non-reactionary ppl so much, that this tragedy happened as bas as it did, ie as extensively as it did in Israel, and then the apparent hyper-reaction against Hamas/gaza. Politics matters, and those who support ultra-conservatives are damaging societies globally, and it's a mortal threat to all of us, both in 'wealthy nations' and in poor ones.

[@trex52]

Newsflash!! being able to hold (not trying) two opposing thoughts at once in your head is a clear and sure mark of intelligence!

[@YOBREADKNIGHT]

Why is the idf such amateurs

[@Agtsmirnoff]

You’ve lost nearly half of Gaza hahahahahha

[@listenup1166]

Hamas terrorizes Gaza, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

[@bkrumer]

What alternatives do you offer to what the Israelis are doing? It may be reactively wrong but that does not change the fact that it is the only thing they can do.

[@thesh1ttyactivist]

This is one heavily biased thought poorly expressed.

[@shaytheo]

Thank you Ezra. This is a beautifully rich conversation.

[@davidaustin6962]

The suggestion that Israel should've not responded right away is such an armchair response. In my mind, Hamas is largely responsible for what happened the 1st week (considering the need Israel had to just "do something"), and Israel is responsible for what happened thereafter. They did in fact dial it way back after that first week, admittedly so they could be more surgical, but also for the sake of the lives of the hostages. What would you have done? The number of people who have selective sympathy about this conflict is astonishing and extremely depressing.

[@constantquestioning4010]

Oh give us a break The world knows what is happening how much spin is put out Arguing for the permanent deadlock of choice « One life is worth as much as another life » Paris

[@Joe-fr8yd]

I tried listening to this, very perplexing. I feel like the guests are underestimating the horrors of what Hamas did. To me, the pre-modern barbarism was so horrific that it warrants a strong response.

[@pezeron24]

If I remember well, the late Edward Said in his last book on the Israelo-Palestinian conflict criticized the PLO for not following the example of the ANC and adopt a non-violent form of resistance, including mass strikes.

[@pezeron24]

It is striking to me that the Palestinian leadership has never been able to capitalize on the worldwide sympathy toward the Palestinian cause. Time and again, they have used terror against Israeli civilians and Jews more broadly, which undermines their credibility and gives the green light to Israel for excessive retaliation. It is almost a suicidal strategy.

[@G0ldbl4e]

​@@pezeron24why then has the world repeatedly ignored the times when the Palestinians embraced nonviolent resistance and were tortured for it?

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

Does not work on Zionists! THEY…… DON’T………. CARE

[@rodbennett1133]

stay tuned brother.@@pezeron24

[@jimmymcgee4101]

The Palestine people are everywhere these days and the fact that all international laws remain more and more broken, the reputation of the Jewish State is falling way low, and will be hard to rebuild.

[@MrElliotc02]

Didn't Pete Seeger say it best? Which side are you on...stand for the union or be a thug for J.H. Blair. There isn't middle ground here. Which side are you on?

[@senorpoodles1755]

The guests and Klein just directly cite Hamas-given death and injury statistics as fact. That's an appalling failure in journalistic ethics.

[@RWZiggy]

Gaza Health Ministry has released list of over 7,000 dead. My coworker's many relatives that he lost all at once were in there, explain that. Maybe your ethnics need looking at.

[@senorpoodles1755]

"Gaza Health Ministry" is literally Hamas. It's highly unlikely he actually lost relatives. Remember when they said 500+ were killed by the rocket that hit the hospital, and it turned out maybe a couple dozen died and the rocket actually came from Palestinian Islamic Jihad? This is how the "Gaza Health Ministry" operates. I actually have a "Palestinian" friend who used to lie about family members being killed by Israel all the time too. The Hamas livestream opened his eyes up to the damage he's been causing, and he's come clean about having lied about that stuff.

[@leonidlando6528]

​@@RWZiggysimple. 3 possible explanations : 1 The list includes both real dead and fictional dead. 2. Youe coworker is lying. 3. You are lying.

[@RWZiggy]

@@leonidlando6528 it's simple, it's number 4, which is that for years U.S. government agencies used lists of Palestiinian Health Ministry because they were found to be accurate. Our own State Department was using them even last week. The UN has used them for years and says they are accurate. But Biden has shown himself to be a lying tool standing with genocide to question them. Major news outlets point out the folly of Biden's words.

[@NavAK_86]

Or you don't wanna believe the truth. It's inconvenient when you've already taken a side. @@leonidlando6528

[@mnjraman]

You guys need to say aloud in the same breath that Israeli War Criminals, starting with Netanyahu and Western leaders who supported the War Crimes, need to face ICC! Anything less is disengenuous AND working against justice!

[@RobinHerzig]

The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi An Oral History of the Palestinian Nakba edited by Nahla Abdo and Nur Masalha Israel’s Secret Wars by Ian Black The Question of Palestine by Edward W. Said Strangers in the House by Raja Shehadeh Hamas Contained by Tareq Baconi

[@azalmitzrahi]

Most all of these avoid answers to Real Questions.

[@sunshinet6205]

Do you know your own trait? Do you think Israeli have ambition to be an oppressor? Think hard! Palestinians brought this to themselves? Instead of make good of short human lives, buried themselves with nonsense hatred. No nation will care if they are attacked daily. As a person who has vivid ancestor trait living overseas, Israel is entitled to go back its own land where other occupants have no ability to make good to the land. Palestinians were always occupied. If u understand why China want Taiwan back while Taiwan has developed greatly beyond great…. Palestine got Israel land from colonizer and so unable. Israel deserves to have it back! Look how great Israel has made great on the land. Sad to be Israeli and has no understanding.