The Lack of Structure - The Problem With Zelda’s Current Storytelling

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[@hyruleguy9569]

A Link Between Worlds is the blueprint for this. Have each set of dungeons beatable in any order, but make each leadup to the dungeons self-contained linear quests about each race's struggles relating to the main antagonist's actions, like in Majora's Mask.

[@turtlechow64]

But thats exactly what they did?

[@hyruleguy9569]

@@turtlechow64 No it isn't. A Link Between World has freedom in intervals. Tutorial > Complete 3 Dungeons in any order > Master Sword, plot twist > Complete 6(ish) more dungeons, also in any order > Final boss It's the same as LTTP and OoT, but each set of dungeons is non-linear. The overall structure is still classic Zelda. TotK starts a bit more guided than BotW but then it becomes the same. 4/5 very short "dungeons" made up of small disconnected puzzles (they have unique themes and bosses, yes, but they're functionally not that different from Divine Beasts), the story is told through memories again and you can go beat Ganon's ass at any time (although thankfully it's an actual challenge this time)

[@avidcule]

Why is it bad to be put on a set path? why do you have to have the freedom of where you go first.

[@scorpionsapprentice3248]

majora's mask could have supported an open ended dungeon order but limitations say otherwise. change some of the items and their locations while the dungeons themselves are restructured for less cheesing. that being said though, the bosses are still open ended. in fact, MM is the only entry where naturally the dungeon entrance order is completely locked but the boss order is completely open ended except for end game. z2 is the closest to this design but level 1 can be tackled at any time prior to end game.

[@jslaughter95]

@@avidcule it's not that it's bad but there was clearly an outcry for some kind of change to the Zelda formula, Nintendo just overcorrected with the freedom aspect with BOTW, and ESPECIALLY with Tears. I don't see an issue with making the dungeon ORDER be non linear, but instead of this weird half assed approach to story telling they take, Keep the story linear, but have set story progression triggers depending on how many dungeons you've beaten, instead of "Oh look, you beat the dungeon! Now here's the same cutscene you saw from the last 3"

[@stuffz1757]

I really hope the next game actually tries to have a story. TotK is like being given all the ingredients of a meal and told to cook it ourselves even tho we're eating a restaurant.

[@Kakaragi]

Isn’t that just Yakiniku though?

[@Vincent-in1uc]

It's like it's got all the parts to a really god meal like a curry, but is missing some key parts that would bring everything together, like chutney. Yeah it's OK without it, but it'll be so much better if they add these extra little things

[@clonetrooper2003]

Yeah i dont want terrible characters like sonia and rusur EVER AGAIN

[@annoyingbookgirl]

I mean I love hot pot soooo

[@clonetrooper2003]

@@annoyingbookgirl who the heck is hot pot???

[@cato3277]

I have a change that would make the story more immersive - cut the geoglyphs and make the memories that of King Rauru's, who has lost his own memory after losing his mind imprisoning Ganondorf. This would make him a way more interesting companion (he really should appear as a personal ghost guy, like Johnny in Cyberpunk) and also make the fact that he doesn't explain anything to Link make more sense. Second, if they wanted to keep the mystery of Phantom Ganon a real mystery, lock the memories behind the Temples. To be honest, the amount of content available early on is already overwhelming, so this would take a weight off the player's back.

[@javiervasquez625]

OMG for real Rauru as our new companion is such a perfect idea to the point i'm surprised Nintendo didn't go in this direction.

[@TheMegaMarshtomp]

The geoglyphs were really screwed up. Some of the memories added nothing to the story, while others flashed back to every other memory. If you get the Master Sword memory in the mountains north of the Lost Woods first, you get to see every other memory at the same time.

[@michaellane5381]

​@@TheMegaMarshtompthey should have just unlocked an image from the forgotten temple wall, then we go to the FT and get a mission playing as Zelda like in the AC games... But it only unlocks after you get the first memory and then continues until your last one you have.

[@LawfulBased]

My personal biggest and absolute greatest main disappointment in Tears of the Kingdom is... the disappearance of the monumental landmarks of Shieka-technology from Breath of the Wild. BY FAR the most immersion breaking for me. Such landmarks should have not vanished like that. It looks like the developers were just too lazy to keep them in the game, even as ruined or slightly weather withered versions of themself. 😒 Since there is also no clear explanation of this in the game... it feels extra immersion breaking. Like _" Yeah we are just in a videogame, they are gone now, deal with it. "_

[@javiervasquez625]

Sadly now we DO have an "explanation" according to Wild duology's lead director Hidemaro Fujibayashi and to be honest... it further dissapoints my low expectations of Nintendo having any desire to tell a rich and deep narrative with this franchise. Needless to say at this point i couldn't care less what comes next for this series as long as the gameplay can still be as innovative as it's been with the lattest 2 titles.

[@LawfulBased]

Yeah I've heard. 😆 And I don't buy it that they even thought about it. 😏 Wanna know what they should have said? The truth! *_" Sorry we just forgot them. "_* Either that or that they were just too lazy to bring the structures in. Especially since it wouldn't have costed them anything cause they already had them developed.

[@EtheRenard]

The most immersion breaking stuff for me was the tunic collecting in the depths. It's just... unnecessary! You cannot even change the color of it, it serves no purpose, and it's only there for the fanservice.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@EtheRenard I wouldn't say it's _just_ fanservice as many saw their pressence in the Depths as a hint by Nintendo that the 3 timelines have indeed converged into a single one once more becoming the Era of the Wild that we explore in this 2 recent games. They added the tunics as a vague way to tell players that the timelines have merged thus unifying into a singular timeline as it once was before Ocarina of Time came along.

[@_itsmunah]

They were too busy copy and pasting one technology for another. I mean who are they fooling. Everything about totk and botw are exactly the same. Abilities, shrines, technology, memories. “Dungeons” were just reskinned beasts. The list goes on. The entire tutorial start is identical. Wake up to ghost king guiding you, complete 4 shrines, gain for abilities, go to temple of time. I mean really.. Personally I was glad to see the tech gone. IMO it was too much tech for a Zelda game but they just repurposed it smh lol

[@twosyMortal]

As for point 4: I feel memories in an open-world zelda game can work if they are more extra story content that elaborates upon the main story. For example some memories could showcase events between botw & totk, like Zelda moving into Link's old house, or how and why the Sheikah tech. disappeared. Just extras to elaborate upon and explain things like world changes, little character moments, and more. Essentially, I would like memories to return if they were more bite-sized cutscenes that can be enjoyed whenever and not PIVOTAL story beats that would be ruined out of order. I feel I'm becoming a little redundant, but I hope anyone reading this understands where I'm coming from.

[@knight-of-aether]

I totally agree - the story really needed more substance, and moving the main story to a more linear path while leaving plenty of optional memories to give context would have been a good way to handle it. I have a feeling the story department for TotK was having problems during development and had to cut a lot of it, but who knows if we'll ever know what happened...

[@jslaughter95]

they also need to just make it so that story telling in this format still has the freedom to do them in any order, but only in terms of finding them. It's really fucking awkward when you aren't following a guide or following Impa like she has candy for you and you end up finding a memory of Zelda lets say being killed or something, only to find the next memory greeting you with Zelda's Arrival in the place where she gets killed. Keep finding memories unlinear, but make it so that regardless of what memory you find in the world, the FIRST memory you find is the starting point of the story, and then every subsequent memory regardless of where it's at shows the continuation from where your last memory ended

[@schutze1399]

There are things in Tears of the Kingdom that I've noticed and I'd like to mention them here. Last year I started playing all the games in the series in chronological order (according to the official timeline) doing 100% of all of them, including the 2 Hyrule Warriors even though they are not canon. I did this so that I could be ready for the release of totk having played all the games. While I was playing Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Majora's Mask, and Twilight Princess, I decided to pay attention to the continuity details that these games brought, especially in the DS games and Majora's Mask since they are direct sequels. I noticed that they all made references according to the games that came before. Wind waker even though it wasn't a direct sequel, made several references to OOT, Phantom hourglass made references to Wind Waker but not to OOT, Spirit Tracks made very specific references only to phantom hourglass, tetra, linebeck, link, niko for example. Majora's Mask made very few references to the story of OOT, but it was understandable because it was another world, Termina. The point is that, when I was playing these games I realized how they were when it came to sequels, they were games that clearly took place after their predecessors, but that had stories that were more independent, making few references to their previous games, with the exception of Wind Waker, which to me seemed much more like a direct sequel that ends the story of OOT. I thought they would do the same with Tears of the Kingdom, and they did, but only to a certain extent, because in the case of totk, it's definitely the direct sequel that references its predecessor the most. There are many references to BOTW in TOTK, but many of them are more in the secondary part of the story, some examples: Tarrey town with Mattison, the scriptures that once belonged to King Dorephan, but now belonged to Sidon, scriptures that talked a lot about the Zora part in BOTW, The class with Symin in hateno, the dialogue with Impa about the calamity, mentions of urbosa in riju's diary, many moments with ganondorf where you could perceive his connection with calamity ganon, the final battle being one of the best examples, when demon dragon flies around the castle with yellow eyes like ganon in BOTW, ganondorf's eyes in his mummy form are the same as malice's eyes in BOTW, as well as the dark beast ganon and the corrupted Naydra. All the character profiles of characters that were in BOTW: zelda, impa, sidon, riju, great deku tree, purah etc, all talk about the calamity, especially Zelda's profile that talks about exactly what she did for 100 years. These are some references that I remembered, there are also those in the past like the dueling peaks and also the Hebra mountains, but there are other references that the game makes that I won't remember, because I only played it once and the game is very big. I understand the frustrations about the story, the lack of explanation about the Sheikah relics, not much was said about the champions with the exception of Mipha, KASS and what happened to him. But I can say that at least compared to other sequels we have in the Zelda series, Tears of the Kingdom is the one that most references its predecessor. At least in my opinion, I expected much less but I was surprised when I noticed the references, especially the more specific ones. But I was also very frustrated to learn that there would be no certain explanations. I think at least that's an improvement when it comes to ''sequels'' that we currently have in the franchise. I just wanted to comment on this for other fans to see as well. I agree with almost everything in the video, except for the twilight princess part with the memories of the last two games, I thought that was a big exaggeration lmao.

[@_itsmunah]

The issue is that totk is the same exact hyrule as botw. Only a few years apart… the references should have been fresh and more abundant. Instead npcs act like they don’t know link? There’s no discussion on lost technology or champions? Devs were lazy. The games you mentioned although sequels took place 100 years apart from each other albeit majoras mask and phantom hourglass which was a different dimension/world. But majoras mask happens due to Navi leaving in oot. Phantom hourglass happens in search of new land from wind waker. Botw and totk might as well been two stand alone games using the same overworld

[@darx7684]

The lack of structure is a good thing in botw because entire game was built around it. Heck, the biggest flaw of totk story is that it GOT a structure, but it just don't synergies with gameplay, and while devs could bring up mote context dialogues after completing dragon's tears, there's no way they could fix linearity of memories.

[@Sarah_H]

There's a Bubbulfrog in one of the Death Mountain caves that CAN'T be accessed until you get to Yunobo and/or complete the Fire Temple to rid the area of marbled rock, so even one of the side quests is locked behind the Main Quest wall. Plus all the other quests that only become available AFTER completing at least one of the Regional Phenomena, and how hard the game pushes us in the beginning to go to Lucky Clover Gazette near Rito Village. It's almost like the devs *wanted* the game to have some linearity and we were going to be directed to go to Rito Village/complete the Wind Temple/start the Lucky Clover Gazette quests early on as an extra incentive to travel to all the stables, but at the last minute Nintendo came down and said "nope, open-world is the winning formula" And tbh I liked the Memories formula in BotW and TotK because it felt like a mystery that had to be pieced together by the player, but it was bungled *HARD* in TotK because you can absolutely ruin the BIGGEST emotional story beat of the game by finding the Master Sword geoglyph or pulling the Master Sword too early. Really wish that we would've just been unable to interact with the geoglyphs and the Light Dragon AT ALL until the second half of the game, after we'd completed all four Regional Phenomena and done some of the Lucky Clover quests (and unlocked some of the other quests that require at least one Regional Phenomena to be completed along the way), then the game could pivot to finding out where the real Zelda is. We could've been driven to find Impa at New Serenne Stable by Purah after Crisis At Hyrule Castle; Impa could've been in Kakariko up until now and she would only show up at NSS after the prerequisites had been met. Then we would be directed to the Forgotten Temple which would show us the order the geoglyphs are to be found in, there could have been another geoglyph in Korok Forest so we would be incentivized to go there to get the Deku Tree memory (this one could be right before the Master Sword memory, so we would have that context for the final Tear, and have a brief respite between dramatic/emotionally heavy scenes), go find the final geoglyph, get the extra Tear, and already have the ping that tracks the Light Dragon so it would be easier to get the Master Sword immediately afterwards. Then go tell Purah, who would be curious about the Fifth Sage, and would send us to Kakariko to start the quest for Mineru, unlock Mineru, rally the other four Sages, and NOW we're ready to go fight Ganondorf. Would've really felt more like an old-style Zelda adventure

[@TheMegaMarshtomp]

There's something really powerful about the Zelda Duology of Breath of the Wild... and Skyward Sword. Skyward Sword tells a linear story following Link's Quest to find Zelda. Everytime you play it, the events play out the same way, with the only customization coming from buying different equipment upgrades. On the other hand, BotW is entirely customizable, the equipment you collect, the enemies you fight, even the story beats you hit, are entirely up to the player. There's a certainty of eventually saving Zelda in the end, but the rest of the story is optional to discover, depending on how much the player wants to see. And then there's TotK, which tells a story just as linear as SS, albeit with fewer twists, but with the open design of BotW. This leads to a game where you can discover the very last plot twist first, if you so choose, and in doing that... nothing changes. The game continues to build up to something you as the player already know. It probably doesn't help that the entire story could be summarized as "Zelda becomes a Dragon". I think the game could have been a bit more interesting if there were a couple more twists or even just plot points to discover, but a linear series of events still needs to be learned in order.

[@robingrooms7534]

Well said. I dreaded totk for years because I saw the writing on the wall with botw that Nintendo didn't care about lore or story in this new era of Zelda. I hope totk is a wake up call to begin to compromise with the older conventions.

[@katnguyen9746]

Kass could just be on a trip of sorts now that his duty to his teacher is complete. Penn's presence could be explained as him just not being in Hyrule during BotW specifically. Josha, I'm 100% sure is actually Purah's clone, who was grown during the time skip

[@nishquikpops]

When people say "Zelda never had a story" I question what they even got from the series as a whole. Those people need to watch this video 👍🏽👌🏽

[@stuffz1757]

The vast majority of people are really really dumb, they think, Good story = a ton of lengthy and long cutscenes with twists and turns. And the better the presentation of the story the better the story is in their eyes, so when they look back and see Zelda with its silent main protagonist and in-engine cutscenes which relied on textboxes only, they just blindly assume all Zelda stories are pointless and non-existent.

[@mobes8876]

Lore doesn’t equal story. Most Zelda games don’t really have a story. Save your best friend/save your love interest/save your sister/beat some temples. That’s not really an engaging story. Now each of the Zelda games have really cool lore that connects over the series, but I’d say only a few Zelda games actually have a story. Also, if many Zelda fans say they don’t play Zelda for the story or that it doesn’t have much of a story, that says something. Perception is reality. A lot of people love Zelda for the gameplay and the world. Story is secondary for them, including myself. If I want story driven games, I’ll play Xenoblade and God of War

[@vadoslink446]

When people say "I play Zelda for the story" I question if they ever played anything else in their life, because Zelda stories are only slightly more nuanced the Mario stories.

[@mobes8876]

@@vadoslink446 Like I LOVE Zelda. But yeah, Nintendo games in general aren't really story driven games. Only a few IPs are. Most are gameplay focused, such as Zelda. I just don't understand all the hooplah recently on a series that never focused on story...and the 1 game that Zelda did have a focused story, Skyward Sword, everyone hated for years

[@scorpionsapprentice3248]

zelda had a lot of story telling in the manual for the nes entries but that was more of an intro. both games tell you your objective in the optional credits screen and tell you to just go and play the game.

[@mzkiller2240]

The problem with being able to go to the final boss from the beggining is that it prevents the story from making dramatic changes as we play. I thought having a massive open world was a great opportunity to have a game where each story events can change the actual landscape of the world. Ganondorfs gloom and power could affect the world around us as we play. We could reach a story moment/cutscene where the villain does something with his power that changes a part of the land.

[@FearFox]

Wonderful video!! When you watch the all the memory cutscenes in order, the story is actually quite beautiful and haunting. I still get goosebumps when rauru sealed ganondorf and the incredible scene when Zelda sacrifices herself and turns into the dragon. Literally jaw dropping. But the actual path to obtain the memories are… questionable. I think the best way to solve this is to make the memories automatically present in order no matter which destination you obtain them from. The game should have a system built in to where you could be at the furthest place on the map, but if you’ve only seen the first memory, this location you’re at, you’ll see memory cutscene number 2, and so on. That might help with the linearity issue in terms of quest story. Botw and totk worlds are to me, just a playground. The story is separate. Not necessarily an afterthought, but definitely something separate. I say this because ive noticed and had an issue with the very world of hyrule itself. Why do we have such a big map if the story is utilizing only 0.4% of locations? How come there were no story scenes in the snow region? Or heck even in the towns and villages? They severely underuse characters in the story like my girl PURAH which makes the overall plot feel weightless when you start playing the game. But the story on its own, is beautiful to me. Not perfect, not a masterpiece, just beautiful. And I loved it for what it is even with its GLARING issues. I felt like we go from one scene to another without really fleshing each one out. Theres not enough downtime with the characters and we don’t see them interact with each other or other characters in a meaningful way or at all, which can hurt the realism or believability of the narrative. But the gameplay though, is amazing. The physics is just flat out amazing. I’ve never seen another game with the most realistic graphics and ray tracing that even comes close to breath of the wild 🤣 so yeah totk deserves to win GOTY in my opinion even with its flaws. Just a thought.

[@maverickdarkrath4780]

Anyone feel like the lore/ writing for Gannondorf/Gannon took a nose dive after demise was introduced

[@pingunooty]

Not really it was always kinda like this (besides like two lines of dialogue in wind waker)

[@vanyadolly]

Yes! It's like they decided to make him entirely one-dimensional and then superimpose that only every game in the series.

[@Giggles_iJest]

Finally someone acknowledges TotK as a gimmicky Breath with a dull story

[@maksimilijan5029]

I think Yunobo has a similar character arch as Linebeck. for example, his hesitance to jump down to the divine beast, in BOTW - to jumping without hesitation, even before Link - in TOTK.

[@Neshoba1337]

If we could have the classic Zelda story and item progression but keep the massive "open air" that would be perfect. Zelda 1 basically did that already, just do it again but in a massive 3D world to explore. Hide those dungeons, make people actually explore. maybe not be so cryptic though.

[@vanyadolly]

The most frustrating thing is that the original game does this almost perfectly, but now they can't get it right for some reason.

[@blackmartini7684]

What i miss the most is the music, the current music is more atmosphere than anything

[@LawfulBased]

In the end everything is "atmosphere " though. You need to go into a bit more detail probably. Although I feel that cool tracks like the Spirit Temple in Ocarina of Time are missing. It is also atmospheric. But in a vastly different way. There is action mixed within it. Something the new games truly miss. Sadly.

[@blackmartini7684]

@@LawfulBased ambient, you know what I mean don't engage in semantics

[@LawfulBased]

@@blackmartini7684 All I could say is that the music of TotK felt kinda... _"weak"._ Everything was quiet and subtle. Too much so.

[@EtheRenard]

My complain is that it recycles the music from BotW. I don't mind ambiant music since you play this game for a hundred hours. Having a melody playing for hours would be horrible. Dragon Quest is a great example of something to not do! Older games were way more shorter, so it doesn't matter. Even though this was the game of my childhood, the game credits of ALTTP (GBA) said that I've only played this game for 50h. (Yeah, I would have expected way more! But back in the days, my playtime was restricted by my parents haha)

[@stevejeffrey11]

two major reasons the Legend of Zelda inspires so many hearts & minds 1) most games tell the Hero's Journey- the epic tale of a hero going off an adventure, an archetypical story as old as time. The oldest story ever known about the Epic of Gilgamesh follows that same format 2) the silent hero Link (his name means players can project themselves onto him)

[@vianabdullah2837]

The issue with the story and dungeons I see some people say is lacking from the newer games could be fixed simultaneously. While still keeping the open format. The story can be divided into 2 or 3 sections, each section having a set of dungeons that can be done in any order. Phase 1 has the Wind, Water, Lightning and Fire Temples. It works just like in the actual game except maybe replace the Hyrule Castle segment with something like Akkala Citadel, which would be a lot more interesting as a location in my opinion. I'm this middle portion you can include a big plot twist that changes the course of the story and gives the heroes a new mission, similar to what happens in the other titles. After that, Phase 2 is unlocked with a new set of dungeons. For the sake of this example, add a Sheikh Shadow Temple and a Korok Forest Temple in addition to the Spirit Temple. These can also be done in any order. Also, tie the memories together with the completion of each temple. So the two main quests are connected and you can't accidentally spoil the story. Before the final fight, they could have the penultimate dungeon be the old Zonai Castle to give more backstory on the events of the past But that's just one idea on how to give the story some structure while maintaining the open air design.

[@javiervasquez625]

A normal present day story could still have been told through a _linear_ mode of storytelling by having the player complete a set number of dungeons in any order for a non skippable cutscene to trigger which then develops the narrative further as we are then tasked with completing a new set of dungeons before a new mandatory cutscene is played leading to a mandatory final boss cutscene following the same narrative formula of every pre-Breath of the Wild game. This way Nintendo is still able to keep the open exploration gameplay intact while still been allowed to tell a "classic" cohesive Zelda storyline as seen in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Hopefully they'll take note of this scenario for there's no reason to exchange story for openworld gameplay when you can have *both* through a clever combination of story-driven and openworld segments.

[@vianabdullah2837]

@@javiervasquez625 That's the idea. There's phase 1 dungeons and phase 2 dungeons. Both can be done in any order but doing the first one is required to access the second and progress through the story.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@vianabdullah2837 The memories could then be used as non mandatory "extra Lore" which aren't actually necessary for the main storyline to play out but rather to flesh out some of the less important side characters in the narrative who would otherwise remain non engaging or barely relevant to the plot until the final battle and ending where they're actually forced to take a focal part on (such as in the case of Mineru). This way it avoids the taxing effort of having to collect them all in a specific order while still feeling rewarding to obtain by getting a deeper glimpse of an otherwise underdeveloped and barely active character in the narrative.

[@vianabdullah2837]

@@javiervasquez625 The actual Dragon's Tears memories should've just been inserted as the cutscene at the end of every dungeon. Rather than having it be a separate quest.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@vianabdullah2837 True maybe the Ancient Sages could have been given Memories to flesh them out like the Champions in Breath of the Wild with the dungeon cutscenes focused exclusively on Zelda's life events after she was sent to the past so that the twist after all dungeons are completed may feel more emotional as part of a consistent linear narrative. Hopefully Nintendo finds this comments and takes note for the next game.

[@deepindigo1937]

They could have added more structure by having a permanent companion, cause even if link does not get trough a character Arc the companion could add that element, have rauru seeing his kingdom resilience after so much destruction, or mineru opening to link trough their adventures and keading link into collecting the pieces of her construct, or tulin as a stary eyed adventurer experience this hyrule that we know so well.

[@bdhuffman42]

Thank you for pointing out the MASSIVE structure/story flaws with BotW and TotK If the future of the franchise continues like this, then I have no interest in it

[@hyruleguy9569]

Not necessarily a flaw. It's a consequence of the completely open design philosophy they have now, so I'd say they're fully aware of it and consider it a worthy tradeoff (not that I do)

[@thewindisblowing7520]

@@hyruleguy9569 I would consider it a flaw, but only because they are actively trying to tell an actual story (just with lacking structure), but I agree it's a consequence of their insistence on player freedom (to which degree I have some gripes with)

[@nhlcbj]

I agree, even without the story issues it’s still not good game design. TotK especially because it felt like it relied too much on gimmicks with the building stuff. Also, and this particularly annoys me, if you have to rely on exploiting duplication glitches for farming crafting materials and money that’s just bad design no matter how you slice it.

[@mkjjoe]

@@nhlcbj by definition these exploits are not the design though, the devs calibrated resources with purpose, it just may not play the best for all kinds of playthroughs

[@lapniappe]

@@hyruleguy9569 the thing - there are games where you can GO anywhere and DO anything... but still have a linear story. i just feel they chose not to do it.

[@heibk-2019]

Came here from Banditgames Zelda creator debate, man you were spitting facts there.

[@ZatchMoonshadow]

Idk man... On one side i actually would have liked more of a story in Breath and Tears, that's absolutely for sure. More about who the sages were, more about the ancient kingdom, more about Ganondorf and waht was his deal at all. But on the other side I'm also absolutely sure they retconed the Zonai into what we see in Tears and it was at least to me disapointing if they hadn't tellegraphed them to be much more barbarian and mystical, even darker than the divine sky goats they ended up as, and i would have like at least that mystery to stay a mystery, not get it explained.

[@ACW-dn9wb]

I agree, unfortunately we got a explanation in the literal next game. And now the Zonai are obnoxiously everywhere in everything. Nintendo just insertend them randomly into Hyrules Royal Family and history. Breaking old lore and making this new lore boring as well. Smh

[@gabfg]

the fact that most of these issues would be resolved if the memories were obtainable in a linear fashion and having the player enter a linear gameplay sequence inside of those memories until you complete them and come back to current hyrule. zelda should have been playable in totk and the fact that she wasn’t in her own memories is a massive flaw in the game that was supposed to be the better version of its predecessor.

[@justaguy2182]

Having a more linear game structure isn’t so bad. It’s easier to form a story around it. Nintendo seems to have forgotten that.

[@brydonprice6216]

It's not that they've forgotten its just that Nintendo has always been gameplay first story second. They care far more about the experience somebody has with the gamplay than they do the story. The lack of a linear structure means they don't have to focus on the plot as much, which is why botw and totk have less of a focus on story than past games. I'm not saying you have to like it or even accept it but that's how nintendo's always been.

[@thomasw9286]

Linear game structure doesn't work well in open world games, keep that in mind. Linearity isn't bad, but it hurts games like totk and bote

[@vanyadolly]

@@brydonprice6216 A bad story is a bad experience. The original game managed to do this better just by not messing up the basics. It also had linear progression in an open world and did that better as well.

[@ZayaMillis]

Thank you for this video! I agree 10000%

[@brandonbaggaley2317]

You can also throw in Pokémon X & Y into the modern formula as well. It has a similar structure with three GYMs followed by the obtaining of the Mega Ring and Mega Lucario. That is followed by five more GYMs before challenging the Elite Four and Champion Diantha.

[@Gyashonav]

I think they can have the final boss accessible at anytime but not even (or barely) hint towards where the boss is untill all dungeons are completed. And of course, they need to add some character pergretion to the final boss and others too. Maybe have it to where if you go to a certain dungeon the boss will be informed with certain facts about the characters. The information can be relayed by a side villain (kind of like Zant or Girahim), that side villain will then pretend to be the main villain untill all or a certain dungeon is completed, where they'll then reveal their true plan. They can also pretend or actual cause problems for each place (like the twilight or the regional phonanina). If you do manage to get to the true final boss first, then they will know nothing about you and you'll have no outside help. Also maybe the shekah* tech did disappear due to it serving it's purpose, but maybe it's only a mystery to the citizens of Hyrule but not Purah, Robbie, the rest of the shekah, Zelda, and Link. I think maybe there was a mechanism in the technology (from 10,000 years ago, not newer ones) that reverts it back to its original state, before it was built, we do know there is something like that that has been used before in ancient technologies...

[@mkjjoe]

22:59 _Fifth Sage quest:_ it's a nice step but even that was half-baked linearity, I stumbled upon it with over half of the temples and memories left to do, naturally it spoiled a lot of what should have payed off before going after Ganondorf. I didn't like feeling that the game needed to market such freedom, but didn't design all paths equally. 24:34 _No more memories:_ If we get substantial events in the present, I'd like a few remarkable flashbacks, even optional. Imagine a version of TOTK where we engage more with the Zonai, Zelda and Ganondorf today, we can find regular NPCs and logs mentioning ancient history, but we can also find a few sacred records that show their backstory in epic cutscenes. That would be a unique and powerful way to both reward exploration and complete an ongoing story. There are elements of that but is really undercooked.

[@elsiebartlett6808]

My biggest issue (besides how sparse the main story was, which is supposed to be the meatiest) was how often the biggest plot points could be spoiled and how easily it could have been avoided. For example, if Impa had only appeared at the next chronological geoglyph and there was a quest marker for her, it would be less likely that they would be spoiled. To take that to a further extreme, the dragon could form each geoglyph one at a time (we do see the light dragon form the final geoglyph in game) and leave it up to the player to find each one by one, maybe using impa’s knowledge somehow? Or using hot air balloons more? I also had the entire Mineru quest spoiled by just having enough hearts and lading in the eye of the storm (which logically meant something would be there in my mind) and lo and behold I did the Mineru spirit temple quest as my 3rd sage, without any of the kakariko thing unlocking or the thunder set. I ended up needing to look up how to get the thunder set since I just ignored Purah about Mineru since I already had her….pretty annoying. I highly doubt this is the “create-your-own-linearity” the devs are talking about… let us all just pray the next Zelda actually works on the story. Tbh I would even be happy with a self-contained story completely divorced from anything else as long as the story is actually good. I thought there were a lot of good elements in the TotK story and, in my mind, I can see how it should’ve been I guess. But when I’m dropping $70 for an experience like this, I shouldn’t have to be imagining how beautiful and artistic it could’ve been if I’d seen it in the right order….

[@StarFlame_228]

I agree with the points made. I myself stumbled across the memories of TOTK out of order and it very heavily spoiled their story for me. It would have been so much more impactful had it progressed along a more linear line and we received the memories and tracked down Zelda/the master sword by retracing her steps. It would also be more meaningful if we needed the master sword to defeat Ganon. It would make the adventure feel more necessary as a satisfying pay-off. This is something BOTW suffered from as well. I found myself naturally drawn to play both games in a more linear format, clearing all the temples and unlocking the master sword before proceeding to the castle. In BOTW I took great pride in leveling up my gear and completing the trials of the sword prior to facing Calmity Ganon. While there are certainly players that love the challenge of rushing to defeat the final boss with nothing but their underwear and a stick (huge props to them for their skill in doing so) I still long for that narrative structure. I love both games and also appreciate that it gives you the choice on how you want to play. But I really hate how you can spoil important plot elements for yourself (particularly the memories). There is pretty much zero means to ensure you encounter them in order aside from looking up a guide or something.

[@ERYK2109]

thanks for telling me what seemed off about totk's storytelling for me during the entire game

[@seanpope1890]

what happened to your videos of your playthrough of twilight princess?

[@ZeldaLore]

Read the community post

[@iamLI3]

>tha lane of zolda love it XD nice use of face shrine music....

[@_itsmunah]

I’ll be the one to say it and if you’re offended you are a part of the issue. The blame goes to new fans claiming botw was the greatest game. Period. This led Nintendo to literally copy and paste gameplay, story and mechanics for a profit. OG fans have been stating since day one of botw about the issues with the story and dungeons. It’s not even Zelda anymore.. Because of the new fans Botw and totk are copy and paste in every way starting from waking up to a ghost king guiding you on a starting area and heading to the temple of time after completing 4 shrines to gain abilities.. to.. 4 “dungeons” in 4 regions where you just flip 5 levers marked on the map then fight boss. Both games identical. It’s pretty evident that big Zelda KZbinrs don’t really cover the game much. Totk has no replay ability especially in a world people already explored for 6 years giving us nothing new of substance. All of Fujibayashi directed games he’s ever done have put a damper on the established lore and timeline. He’s ruining Zelda. Keep the open world, that’s what we always wanted but open world doesn’t mean any (open air) dungeon anytime without order with no traditional weapons. We want traditional Zelda in open world. Give a PRESENT tense linear story. Memories are a lazy way to write the story. I want to feel as if ganondorf is active in the world. Instead he’s just been sitting under the castle all game. Bring back traditional weapons and items. Bring back traditional dungeons. Maps, keys, puzzles etc. and stop with the 4 dungeons.. Nintendo is cheating us. Bring back the 3 dungeons in first half then the extra 5-6 in the second half. They missed opportunity. Imagine a dungeon per region in botw hyrule with its own unique lore and themes. Instead we got 4 little divine beasts in botw and reskinned divine beasts in totk. Botw and totk are only good for open world. Other than that they are two of the worst Zelda games in the series when it comes to story and dungeons. The two most important things Zelda is widely known for.

[@javiervasquez625]

I agree with everything stated above _but_ the idea that Fujibayashi has "ruined" the Lore as i feel that was a collective mistake made by the creative team as a whole (that is also Aonuma, Hayashi and company) with Fujibayashi only adding new Lore after it was greenlit by the rest of the writing team. If it weren't for him we might not have The Minish Cap which is arguably one of the most creative games in the concept department as to been able to shrink and do stuff as a tiny person. This whole new direction that the Lore is taking is more of a sympton of the Zelda Team's own new development formula for the franchise than the actions of a single man who's sitting in the Director's Chair so i wouldn't put all the blame on Fujibayashi's shoulders alone. That aside you 100% nailed everything else.

[@_itsmunah]

@@javiervasquez625 while I can agree that it’s collective.. at the end of the day Fujibayashi is the director in charge. It is on him in the same way a sports teams head coach is reaponaible for overall performance of the rest of his coaching staff to do and teach what needs to be done properly.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@_itsmunah I agree yet again he didn't sit on the chair out of his own will alone as he was _given_ the possition following Aonuma standing up and leaving the chair available for another employee to take up his mantle while he takes the more consultant and supporting possition within the team very much being Fujibayashi's mentor who watches over his handling of the possition in order to prevent him from making mistakes and "going too far" in the development process. Even the head coach has his own superiors is what i'm trying to say and so i don't believe the _entire_ responsibility for the final product's misgivings has to fall exclusively on him.

[@vanyadolly]

Well we can't really blame the new fams when Nintendo made a game to appeal to mainstream gamers. They have no reason to care about the rest of the series.

[@EnderBlood]

While I don't fully agree with your ideas for "fixing" it, I do agree that the game's structure is a big issue with TotK's story. When making BotW, the developers were in a bit of a conundrum: The wanted absolute player freedom, which a set order of events would undermine, preventing them from writing stories like they used to. Their solution was a very simple story, that is told entirely at the beginning by king Roham, giving you context for the rest of the game, and sub-stories focused on specific characters, fleshing out the world (the memories and dungeons), able to be told in any order since you already had the context (the whole Calamity Ganon thing). A lot of it is in the past because that lends itself better to non-linear discovery. While many players were let down by this story when playing, myself included, you can't deny that the choice makes sense when considering the new direction of the game gameplay wise. It at least made sense to try. However it is evident that despite its qualities that players have come to like over the years, this is not the kind of story that zelda players are interested in. Maybe because of this, or maybe due to internal decisions, thy decided to go back to a more structured story with defined plot beats: zelda gets sent into the past, ganondorf is an immediate threat but people are unaware, link needs to look for zelda which is a mystery to be uncovered, it turns out that ganondorf is an ancient threat that the zonai tried to deal with but couldn't, they tried to ensure that link would be able to take their legacy and finish the job once and for all, because of that zelda making a sacrifice, and once knowing all of this link decides to look for ganondorf and destroy him, honoring rauru's and zelda's sacrifice, and tries to find a way to save her, which was his main objective. Now how do you tell such a story in a game in which you can do anything and go anywhere at anytime? You can't just do it like in BotW because you have zelda's mystery being uncovered progressively, and the threat of ganondorf is not evident at the beginning so it wouldn't make sense to fight him immediately, and the story of the zonai is important context for the main conflict that is hidden at the beginning... This is not an easy problem to solve. Well apparently they just didn't try to solve it and just did it like in BotW, despite the obvious issues that would arise. And the friction between TotK's story and BotW's structure can be felt everywhere. BotW's structure allows you to discover zelda's fate at anytime, but TotK's story says that the other characters are focused on searching for her, that's what motivates your and their actions, so you can't tell them. BotW's structure allows you to fight ganondorf right at the beginning, despite TotK's story saying you don't know where he is, why he exists, or even **that** he exists. BotW's structure says you can do the dungeons in any order, but TotK's story says you should learn the context of their existence once you defeat the boss, and since you can't be sure whether or not the player already has this context (because of BotW's structure), you copy-paste it four times just in case. TotK's story says that after helping everyone and finding out about the threat of ganondorf, you embark on a quest to find a fifth sage and the mastersword, but BotW's structure allows you to just go there if you're a bit curious about that ominous looking cloud in the sky, without any resistance, and if you do, TotK's story will say: "oh wow you finally found me that's it we're in the final chapter let's go fight ganondorf immediately". It just doesn't fit. There are many ways to tell a non-linear story, that aren't just "you should be able to encounter any piece of story at any time", but they weren't interested in doing that, even if it meant that their well-crafted story could just not work at all. I hope they explore other avenues in the future, even if it means that sometimes you have to restrain the player a bit. tl;dr: TotK's story is written like other 3D zelda stories but keeps BotW's structure exactly and that causes all sorts of issues in the narration.

[@Flynnisthename]

Yes thank you!! The story should’ve been told similarly to hollow knight imo. Total freedom and exploration with the story in every piece of exploration you do.

[@themastersword1621]

To each their own and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but personally I don't really understand the criticisms that BOTW and TOTK lacked structure or had "no story." Both games absolutely had a story that you could progress through. BOTW was putting your lost memories back together, almost like a mystery, and freeing the Divine Beasts from Calamity Ganon's control. You also don't get the final memory of Zelda saving Link until you get all the other memories. It was simple, but I personally thought it was effective. In TOTK, Ganondorf awakens, you're separated from Zelda, and you have to look for her while investigating the phenomena and awaken the sages. The dragon tears work the same way as you try and piece together what happened thousands of years prior and what happened to Zelda. As I recall, you don't get the last tear until you do all the others, so personally I don't think Zelda's sacrifice felt cheapened. Once you awaken the sages and reclaim the Master Sword, you realize Ganondorf's deception, find the final sage and where Ganondorf is located, then challenge him. While you could certainly collect the memories and tears in any order, the big reveal was never given until you collected all the others. Not to say I would have been opposed to forcing the player to go in order, but personally I liked piecing the past together like a mystery to be solved. I also love the idea of being able to go to the final boss whenever you want. If you go at the beginning, you have a tough challenge because you're under-powered and may not have any strong weapons or armor. Yet it's not impossible if you're skilled or creative enough. If you go through the rest of the game, you may still have a challenging fight (Demon King Ganondorf especially) but you feel that this is a true culmination of everything you've worked for. Being able to craft your own experience is something I really enjoyed. In my opinion, the story is important but the most crucial factor to me is gameplay. Is this game fun? Is it worth playing? Wind Waker would personally be my pick for best story but it doesn't crack the top 5 of my favorite Zelda games because there were other games that were more enjoyable. They had better dungeons, better overworlds, or maybe better features. Again, this is all my opinion. If you didn't like the game and/or approach to the story, more power to you.

[@janeS9773]

Love it now verses before!!!

[@Arjanator]

They could've done what Elden Ring did where the player needs to complete a minimum of 2 dungeons to unlock the final boss.

[@EricCabussu]

Totk really sucked at the point that I got the master sword and knew exactly where zelda was. and all the plot keeped asking me where zelda was and I already knew. The game doesn't rearrange its plot in order to accomodate free exploration as mentioned in the video... i stopped playing at this moment.

[@nicholasnewberg2865]

Of all the videos critiquing the modern Zelda games story flaws, this one is my favorite. Thank you for exploring these issues in a clear, concise way!

[@solong_goodnight]

when i think about the dungeons themselves i think they should've gone sort of the route elden ring did. not directly telling you there's a dungeon but the characters talk about it and you find it yourself. or, exploring hyrule and discovering OPTIONAL dungeons would've been really cool and was something i was hoping for in totk. as for the story, idk why it's so hard to just have it set in the present. plenty of open world games have done it before and it didn't make them any less open world. i miss those big moments like wolf link healing midna and getting the master sword, or in SS that confrontation with ghirahim, zelda, and impa. why can't we have that again? the closest we got to that is the phantom ganon fight in the castle. not to mention how totk messed up the timeline even more, thanks to the careless writers. i thought ganondorf had initially recognized link and zelda from fighting their past incarnations and i thought that was SO cool and a great way to connect all the games...only for that to not be the case at all. no more memories, and no more ignoring the already existing lore 😢 that would be nice

[@happysmilesworldandgames8755]

8:02 wellllllll........

[@thomasw9286]

The only thing ill say is. Open world and plot based story dont go well together. Better to have no real plot, and go with more lore based discovery for open world. Imo open world zelda would be better right now. If they abandon the idea of plot based story, and asked the player to learn the world themselves through lore, and not structured story. I know people will disagree, but i think the way elden ring does it is the best. No actual plot, but instead lots of lore to find. (Now that said, i still prefer totk to ER, gameplay wise)

[@vanyadolly]

This! I'm so sick of games trying to push an open world and a pressing time-sensitive story at the same time. Open worlds work in a sandbox setting, not with a pre-established character with a plot to follow.

[@1800mexicano]

Love the video, it is literally what I've been going on about for years about my gripes with tears of the kingdom. the sheika tech is pretty self explanatory. All of the technology was found by the people of the past because it was known that it would help fight the calamity. And it only began to function once the calamity started to become a problem again. So it only stands to reason that it would vanish again when the calamity was finally defeated. The people of the past who found it to fight the calamity again didn't know how it vanished the first time. Its MO is probably just to go subterranean again. I know it's a bad explanation. But even at the end of breath of the wild, Zelda makes a comment that one of the Divine beasts is starting to function poorly. It was just another thing they didn't not seem to want to flesh out for tears of the kingdom

[@megamannt125]

TOTK told me that Nintendo should never make another direct sequel set in the same world again, because they do not know how to.

[@a.jthomas6132]

Let’s hope the next one can connect the dots between BoTW and TOTK

[@javiervasquez625]

@@a.jthomas6132 It it's not completely brand new like every major installment in the series.

[@tenseiga04]

I'm grateful for the non existence of Twilight Princess 2

[@megamannt125]

@@tenseiga04 In TP2, all of the owl statues would be gone, no one in Kakariko would know who Link is, and no one would ever mention the Twilight or Zant or even Midna outside of a single line from an optional NPC.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@megamannt125 Might as well call it anything else instead of "Twilight Princess 2".

[@PrivateLZG]

Finally. I always hated how much the game was praised. The only good criticism was a Cieve Video for a while but this perfectly addresses my problem with the series. I'm a story player but I see the massive content and effort put into the game. But despite it, I still never could enjoy the game because of a boring story and annoying game design. And I honestly don't know how Nintendo wants to save this mess. And it scares me

[@PrivateLZG]

Another thing is the music which always made games unique, but in TotK, there is hardly any new music, but most of it is a remix of BotW songs, destroying the nostalgia I had for that game.

[@Flynnisthename]

I’m also a story player and a writer and the ending made me cry like a baby. Just seeing the scene or hearing the music is super impactful for me. Maybe the game isn’t necessarily bad but you just don’t like it?

[@PrivateLZG]

@@Flynnisthename It's less the story of the game itself, I wouldnt really mind is as an indepentent game (despite the underdeveloped characters and repeating story elements) but a big problem for me is how Nintendo integrated it into the Zelda universe. Because they didn't. TotK just simply has the characters from BotW and any other aspects from previous games are heavily altered or straight up disproven

[@clonetrooper2003]

Thank you! TOTK’s atory is one of the worst sequels of all time

[@vadoslink446]

The lack of structure is a good thing. It's an open world, exploration focused game. If they gave you a linear story to just follow like an errand boy, that would not only clash with the entire point of it being an open world, but it would also make the exploration feel very unrewarding. Like Outer Wilds or many of the Souls games, the fun of the story comes from the fact that it's not shoved down your throat. You have to actively seek it out and put the pieces together, which makes you feel like an actual adventurer. This is contrary to Skyward Sword, which is so focused on forcing you down its linear story, that it completely takes away any sort of player agency. A structure like that is the main reason why they changed the Zelda formula to begin with. That said, BotW handled this right. TotK didn't. TotK was a linear story presented in a non-linear way. This worked fine for the regional phenomena (literally every Zelda game has isolated sub-stories during the McGuffin collecting phase), but for the Dragon Tears, it didn't make much sense. Zelda's story in the past is written in a way that constantly builds up to an event that the player shouldn't know about, whereas the memories in BotW simply detail the events that lead up to the calamity. Finding memories out of order is perfectly fine since you already know the end to that story, but in TotK you can easily end up spoiling yourself. And while the intended order of the tears is quite obvious (it's literally on the wall of the forgotten temple), having to follow a linear order goes against the fact that TotK is an open world. For the next game, I think they should just handle it more like BotW again, or at least design the fragmented part of the story in a way that only ever lets you unlock each part in the right order.

[@Sir_Adam]

I've noticed a fatal flaw with every open world game I've played. Having the open world makes it harder to feel connected to the story when usually there is hours of playing in-between progressing the plot. where as with linear games, the story IS the game, not the world. I don't want another BotW, I want another Twilight Princess.

[@BenjiSchwimmerDance]

Great work but I disagree wholeheartedly on #5. The developers shouldn’t have to explain everything game to game. The entire lore of LoZ is based off of legends… which often have pieces missing and holes we as the players can assume and fill in with our own imagination. It’s how you have a KZbin Chanel to begin with. Kudos

[@randomwolfboi7866]

People use the "game-play first" excuse all the time. Nintendo always made great story's in every Zelda game, and then breath and tears came out. The state of Zelda isn't gonna be good if Nintendo makes it a open world were you can choose to do any dungeon, with the story hidden behind flash backs

[@mercianthane2503]

This is just one of many reasons of why I never picked this game. I have no desires to re-explore a world I've already seen before. Add the fact the story is just mid, with no interesting characters, except for Zelda and Ganondorf.

[@avidcule]

I can't take one more open hyrule if it's like this, they better scale it down and do proper dungeons in a linear fashion with a proper story or I'm just done with this franchise, this BOW trend is a plague

[@cloudrider9142]

Overall, I just have no idea how you would marry a more structured story/narrative with such a non-linear approach to to the open world! Just like the player needs to structure his exploration of Hyrule himself, the same is kinda needed for the narrative. Like, apart from making it, so that every "memory point“ just plays the next memory in order, no matter where, I have a hard time seeing more structure, IF the non-linearity is to stay. Just depends what the Zelda devs wanna focus on or deem more important! Also, the problem of "having to assemble the story yourself“, while legitimate, is also not objectively bad. Just look at the SoulsBorne games… In those, you have to basically "work“ even harder than in BotW/TotK, in order to get the full picture and even then that picture is much more fragmented than in those two Zelda games. That said, I DO have to give Tears of the Kingdom some credit here, what actually happens in the past, is much more interesting and mysterious, than the memories in BotW. And the present day stuff in all the "main towns“, also has more stakes and drama than in Breath. The Gerudos have a mummy/zombie outbreak, the Gorons have been mind-controlled, the Rito have their surroundings frozen over and the Zora‘s water is now dangerous to them. Those seem way more "problematic“, than the stuff in BotW. (It’s also very much in line with older Zeda games, where for example Death Mountain is erupting and the Gorons can’t help you until you solved it.) Not to speak of the ending or final act of TotK, which is arguably one of the best in the whole franchise and again much better than in Breath. For me personally, TotK has the better or more interesting narrative, BUT yes, the way it is told is still the same way BotW told its story!

[@Corrico95]

Loved this video! I agreed with everything you said! I’ve been saying all this since Breath of The Wild came out! Linearity is not a bad thing! Too much can be, but you get the best stories and engagement with the player when there is a payoff! Great video! I don’t mind that they don’t connect to the older games, Nintendo wants to be vague about that and that’s fine, but as a direct sequel to BOTW, it’s not ok how so much goes unexplained.

[@ironmuro]

Sort of side tangent to this video but, I really hope we are done with the Botw/TotK point of the timeline for a while. 3 games with them all in a row, and then BotW also taking the Smash Bros. spot felt like a lot of investment for a single era in the timeline. It felt little frustrating with the problems mentioned in the video. It would be nice for the other eras to be expanded more, flush put those points in the timeline or even just to revisit them with a new quest to go on. It has happened before with Phantom Hourglass coming out a couple games after Wind Waker, so I don't see why direct sequels have to come out right after that initial story is told. Though if those eras wear to be revisited I can only hope it would be done with the same level of care. I personally would love to see more from the eras of Twilight or Sky, since those are the only console Zelda games to not have continued stories in other games. Well, more so Twilight than Sky since Sky was made to be a prequel to everything but you get the idea.

[@javiervasquez625]

I feel the biggest mystery surrounding the Twilight Era is what became of the Oocca (or "Sky People") following Twilight Princess as their backstory and role is very similar to the Zonai making one wonder if they are the SAME RACE in a different form. Should Nintendo ever go back to this Era addressing the connection between the Oocca and Zonai might be reason enough to justify such a game.

[@brandonbaggaley2317]

Also, the replacing of Twilight Princess Link with his Breath of the Wild counterpart doesn’t equal to having every character from past Smash Bros games in Smash Bros Ultimate. The advertising of Smash Bros Ultimate emphasized that every character was back, not every moveset. Ocarina of Time Link returned through Young Link, but replacing Twilight Princess Link and Zelda with their counterparts from BotW and A Link Between Worlds without Ocarina of Time Zelda returning (even through reverting Sheik to her Ocarina of Time design) doesn’t equate to having every character from the past Smash Bros games in Smash Bros Ultimate. Twilight Princess and BotW are separated by over ten thousand years of in game history and A Link Between Worlds is in the Downfall Timeline while Twilight Princess is in the Child Timeline.

[@cesare4217]

👏

[@moxiewatts]

P R E A C H

[@madnessaurus]

The story was severely lacking, I have to say I'm disappointed with how they went about it :( I still love it though, it just needed way more.

[@SuperHuman37]

TOTK feels more like a Breath of The Wild remake, than it does a Breath of The Wild sequel.

[@EtheRenard]

Even thought I loved this game, I was disappointed. For a sequel, I expected a bit more effort. The non-linearity in BotW was a logical gameplay, since you explore a post-apocalyptic world with almost no one to guide you. For TotK, it just feel copied and pasted! Same for the shrines, same for the Koroks, same for the 4 regions, same for the gear upgrade system (they didn't even managed to balance this, try to find 48 Lizalfos tails when they're way more rare than in BotW). The depths and sky are empty. The game has incredible cutscenes, voice acting, music and story. And also, I'm a dragon fans, so this was a good surprise for me! However, the narration, the repetitiveness, the duration of the adventure... all of that makes it so I wouldn't launch this game again.

[@javiervasquez625]

I feel they should have spent another year FIXING the story by emphasizing present day cutscenes, more actions from the side of villain (eg: Ganondorf actually doing stuff instead of sitting all day doing nothing) and building up the Lore of the Zonai so their existence isn't a mystery with no explanation. Perhaps then would the experience been far more pleasant and engaging to older fans while still keep that same "feel" which Breath of the Wild had as it's own unique experience.

[@grace-zz8zh]

Crazy how this zelda was supposed to be story oriented according to nintendo themselves and it's.....ugh, well even worse than botw in this way. I actually liked botw's format

[@MegaTitan64]

Tears of the Kingdom is by far my least favorite Zelda game. Without exaggeration, it has the most frustrating, confusing, and muddled story and lore out of any game in the entire series. Tri Force Heroes honestly has a better story in my opinion because it at least knew not to take itself too seriously; Nintendo, on the other hand, took TotK's story so seriously that they took several years just to reveal its name. Why is Ganondorf active during the era of Hyrule's founding? Why is the Imprisoning War completely different than the one from A Link to the Past? Why is there a lightning sage, but no shadow sage? What are the implications of the amiibo drops being found in the base game? I could go on and on, but in short, it feels lazy, disrespectful, and like a slap to the face to people who have kept up with the lore for all this time--something that Nintendo has actively encouraged by releasing all the lorebooks over the past decade. Until TotK, Nintendo had pretty much always taken continuity in Zelda games seriously. The Wind Waker exists solely because of its connection to Ocarina of Time, and just imagine if the Great Sea had just mysteriously disappeared in Phantom Hourglass without explanation. I can guarantee that people would be upset, but that's precisely what Nintendo did with the Sheikah technology in TotK. TotK is a sequel that refuses to be a sequel. So, like, why was Zelda sent back in time? On a narrative level, I mean. Having her sent so far back into the past could've been the perfect opportunity for her to connect the world of BotW & TotK and the worlds of the other Zelda games from 10,000 years ago. Instead, with all the lore weirdness that TotK introduces, the old games now seem more disconnected from the new games than ever. There are just so many things that don't add up, and it makes me so frustrated. Aside from all the lore weirdness, I dislike how TotK borrows so much from other Zelda games without doing anything truly new or revolutionary with it. "An ancient, godly race of sky people with their own, unique language and super advanced technology that also helped establish the kingdom of Hyrule?" Cool, but Twilight Princess did it first... "The Sage of Light, Rauru, building the Temple of Time, as well as the Gerudo King betraying the King of Hyrule and stealing a powerful, magical artifact despite Zelda's warnings?" Ocarina of Time. "The Demon King rising to power, only for outcroppings of earth to be sent skyward to protect them from his evil influence and to help a future hero, and the (re)forging of the Master Sword?" Skyward Sword. Not only does TotK inexplicably reuse so much, but I think that the older games did a lot of it better... Like, in Ocarina of Time, the Great Deku Tree tells this epic story of biblical proportions of the creation of Hyrule, the Golden Goddesses, and the Triforce. The Triforce was not only a magical McGuffin, but it also really felt like a part of that world, its history, and its culture. What...exactly are the Secret Stones? I presume that the Zonai made them, I guess, but their origins are never really explained. They're just kinda there to be plot devices, and that's it. I could also make a very similar argument about the Fused Shadows from TP, but I've already made my point... Also, Ganondorf! His motivations never go beyond "I'm the Bad Guy™ and want to destroy the world" in TotK, whereas in The Wind Waker, they gave him a straight-up tragic villain arc. The unique story elements that TotK introduces also fall flat in my opinion. Who exactly are the Zonai, where did they come from, and why had they already long disappeared by the age of legend? What happened to them? What exactly are the Depths? Why is like an upside down, spiritual underworld? Did Demise originate from there? Who are the Bargainer Statues?? Are the three dragons from the first game actual dragons, or are they just draconified Zonai? The game never makes any attempt to answer these questions, and even if no concrete answers were ever given, I think it would've been great for the game to at least tease at the answers. What the game does instead is repeat the same story about the "Demon King" and the "Secret Stones" five separate times! Five!! It's ridiculous. Granted, maybe there is something more there, but I'm honestly unconvinced if the devs considered the story that deeply at all, which is a sentiment that I feel even more strongly about given their recent comments about the Sheikah technology... Not only does TotK seem pretty divorced from the other Zelda games, but TotK feels pretty disconnected from its predecessor, BotW. All of the Sheikah tech has inexplicably vanished. So may people don't recognize Link, despite his being the savior of Hyrule. How does Hudson remember Link, but not Bolson?! That should be impossible. The First Great Calamity from 10,000 years ago isn't explored any further. And no one, not even Zelda, connects Calamity Ganon and Ganondorf. Finally, that ending... That ending... I hate it. So much. One of the only things that we're told about Secret Stones (which is also just a terrible name, btw) is that draconification is irreversible. The fact that Zelda, knowing this, still goes through with it to save Hyrule exemplifies both her love for her kingdom and her willingness to do what's right, no matter the cost. The fact that all of the consequences for her sacrifice are immediately and inexplicably undone at the end of the game is honestly just baffling. If Nintendo really wanted to restore her at the end, then why not use the Triforce or something to undo the transformation, which was oddly absent from both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Moreover, what was even the point of the game? Honestly! What was the point?! At the end of the game, the Master Sword is restored, Zelda is returned to normal, all of the plights affecting Hyrule's races are alleviated... Everything goes back to the status quo. It doesn't feel like there are any long-lasting consequences at the conclusion of this game. Gah, it's all just so upsetting! I honestly struggle to see what took Nintendo six years to release this game, especially when one remembers that the majority of development time for BotW was taken solely on the physics engine. Even worse, I'm afraid of the possibility that the next 3D Zelda game won't release until 2030 and will be an even further departure from the series I've grown to love.

[@Nebyulosity]

I was not a big fan of BotW because it was such a shallow experience in every aspect. I didn't really like the presentation of the Sheikah, or the aesthetic of the Sheikah tech either. BotW's story was so weak that I quickly lost the will to care about any kind of narrative consistency between the two games, or even within the two games. I just couldn't take any story in these structure-less worlds seriously, because it was pretty clear to me that the devs were prioritizing silly gameplay even if that was a determent of having a consistent tonal narrative progression. For that reason, I didn't care that the Sheikah tech had vanished without a trace (In fact I was happy to see it replaced with the Zonai aesthetic, which I prefer). I was honestly confused why anyone could care, because the devs did such a bad job at making a story that deserves to be taken seriously in my opinion. To me, if they wanted to make experimental physics sandbox games, then I was going to judge them like sandbox games (and they are not very good sandbox games in comparison to many other sandbox games out there, in my opinion) But I guess some people were able to connect with the "story" in BotW enough that not seeing the Sheikah tech in TotK felt like it mattered. If I look at it from their perspective, I certainly agree. It's a really glaring and bizarre hand wave. Like, they actually had to do MORE work to remove references to the Sheikah tech than if they had left some of them laying around. They could've done some really good worldbuilding with that stuff. Heck they could very easily have done worldbuilding good enough to improve my abysmal opinion of both games. For example, I'm imagining that a lot of the wrecked guardians in heavily populated areas would have been scavenged and what not, but there were some guardians in some very remote areas. Imagine if you stumbled onto those more remote guardians and ran into a group of Sheikah tech scavengers who would tell you about how they've been scouring the land for the valuable Sheikah parts. The shrines and towers disappearing makes sense. There is already precedent for them just receding back underground, but they still could have left little scars in the earth where they once were. Imagine if the Sheikah chamber you fight Calamity Ganon in was shown broken, ruined, and being eaten away by gloom at the bottom of that pit under Hyrule Castle... Oooo or if the divine beasts themselves where broken and ruined by Gloom: The crumbling carcass of Vah Rudania drowning in the lava chamber depths below death mountain; the gloom covered skeleton of Vah Naboris, buried up to it's neck in desert sand; Frozen pieces of Vah Medoh littering the Herba landscape; A leaking, broken Vah Ruta mired in Gloom-y sludge. Same with the shrine of resurrection, just leave it there and ruin it up a little with gloom or something. Stuff like that would've contextualized what happened to the Sheikah tech in a really interesting way, demonstrating a significant difference between "Gloom" and "Malice". You might see that stuff and think to yourself "Malice could only ever co-opt the Sheikah tech, not rot it away, but this Gloom stuff can? It just ate away the very tools that have been suppressing Calamity Ganon for Millennia? Woah!" Gloom just started to feel a little bit scarier didn't it? It could've had gameplay function too. Perhaps you could salvage uncommon and powerful Sheikah tech parts for fusing to weapons, etc. So yeah, even as someone who really didn't like Sheikah tech that much and was really underwhelmed by BotW, I agree that just hand waving the Sheikah tech away was a HUGE missed opportunity for some great storytelling. I'm not surprised they missed it though, because good story telling doesn't fit very well in this very stubborn design philosophy of absolutely player freedom that gave birth to BotW. Them trying not to make a game that causes to much discouragement or confusion for players means they can't do anything as interesting as what I described above. The best they can do is cheap spectacle and fan-service, because they've just got too much tunnel vision on a single type of gameplay.

[@mateus53415]

Is not a problem at all from me,, but i like to piece puzzles together and the structure from BOTW/TOTK is super fun in my perspective

[@d00p58]

i keep saying that i really like totk's story, just not the way it was told

[@clonetrooper2003]

And i keep saying TOTK’s story is a trashwreck, along with the way it is told

[@joshuabrown6791]

I thought all constructive criticism of their beloved BotW & TotK was still viscerally abhorred and shunned by the fanbase. Bold of you to make this video then, and bolder still to advocate for compromises between what the older and newer fans want. I swear the normies have ruined this franchise and are some of the shittiest members of the fanbase. It was better when Zelda was still niche.

[@ZeldaLore]

When I pointed these things out on twitter, a hell storm fell on me with people saying it was "not a big deal", "to "get over it", and so on. The tables turned with the Sheikah Tech disappearance interview. I've been thinking about all this for months, and finally put it in video format.

[@joshuabrown6791]

@@ZeldaLore Thanks man for making this video man. Sorry you had to get the hate too. Stay strong man, you're doin' the Lords work.

[@marcovarius]

Experiencing the story out of order is what made it so compelling. I don't understand needing an explanation for every detail and just have more fun making up my own head-canon to fill in the gaps. Less is more. Though the Sages' cutscenes definitely could have each had more uniqueness without a doubt. Great video.

[@cato3277]

Headcanons are rad, but the game feels like it's missing some connective tissue to let us make those head canons in a satisfying way. There's too many mysteries and not enough leads, and unlike past games it gives off an impression that it wasn't as well thought out. We can still make plenty of head canons but they'll never really feel satisfying to uncover. I can't really articulate why exactly this game is missing the magic that made theorizing fun (maybe it's Wild fatigue?) but it just isn't.

[@ZeldaLore]

Experiencing the story out of order doesn't feel compelling, there is no buildup and no story progression. When it came to BOTW, we already knew the main story, and all the memories added to that context, so it didn't matter which order we got them. For tears of the Kingdom that does not work, specially given the mystery plot. Less isn't more when it comes to worldbuilding, more is more. You can't just do a massive change in the world and expect the players to just fill that gap, that's not how worldbuilding works. Imagine, for example, if in The Lord of the Rings they go from having Mordor be a fiery inferno in one book, and them a blossoming garden in the next, and give no explanation as to why. Same thing with the disappearance of the Sheikah tech, or appearance and disappearance of characters from one game to the next. Imagine is a fifth hobbit suddenly was part of the fellowship in The Two Towers, and no one made a remark as to who they are or where they came from, and acted as if that character was always there in the last book. Same idea.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@ZeldaLore Imagine if the back of the cover in The Two Towers said "pay extra to get the supplementary DLC book which explains why there're so many changes between the Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers". Point here being: if you're given any piece of information _outside_ from the source material itself to understand details surrounding the story and Lore the writer has already failed in the worldbuilding and Lore department for someone to say the narrative is "intentionally vague" for especulation's sake. There's a vast difference between intentional ambiguity and showing bare care to tell a cohesive and consistent narrative.

[@ghsvideosreviews5499]

Disappointing , replaying last day's twilight princess and skyward sword , i had a feeling of the story and true purpose, man helping the robot recover his map on his house in SS or have to tell the zora prince about his mother , just great games , but story is always in second place in botw , but sometimes not enough to care about, in botw i still had this feeling of trying to see and save this kingdom from a century of suffering , but in this last game , i was disappointed.

[@_7thSage-9405]

I've been a Zelda fan since the first game came out long ago. And, I'd like to make it clear, I love all the games. I named my daughter Zelda... I only bring that up to make my point that I'm a huge Zelda fan. I do understand why people want the old "formula" that was firmly established in A Link to the Past, and Ocarina of Time. However, I loved these two newest one as well. Not everything has to be spelled out... If you don't like BOTW and TOTK, trust me: the traditional style Zelda games are not gone. We will get those again along with the new "open air" style of games. Just be patient.

[@javiervasquez625]

_"Just be patient"_ Hopefully that doesn't mean ANOTHER 5 years at a point where the fandom would have moved on from the Zelda franchise as a whole.

[@_7thSage-9405]

@javiervasquez625 I understand your fear in that regard, but c'mon, man... Nintendo will release another Zelda sooner than that. They usually release a Zelda title every year or every other year.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@_7thSage-9405 Yet Aonuma and company have already confirmed that "openworld is the new direction for the Zelda franchise" which implies the next title _will_ follow the exact same formula as Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom regardless of the criticism and reviews the openworld gameplay has recieved in the last 6 years since Breath of the Wild came out. If no classic Zelda comes out in the next 2 years i'm afraid this might become the end of an Era for all die-hard fans who've grown enjoying the linear style of the franchise since the original 1986 NES game.

[@_7thSage-9405]

@javiervasquez625 You realize they make other games in the Zelda franchise other than the big tentpole games, right? Also, just because they want to keep working on open-air experiences for the big Zelda titles doesn't mean that they won't continue to innovate. I, for one, trust Aonuma and Fujibayashi to make a Zelda that will appeal to the newer fans and us fans that have been around since the beginning. I also want to point out that just because a Zelda is open-air doesn't mean it can't have everything that makes the older games great.

[@javiervasquez625]

@@_7thSage-9405 _"You realize they make other games in the Zelda franchise other than the big tentpole games, right?"_ I am well aware don't you worry about that but as as stated above it's been _6 years_ since Breath of the Wild came out and yet all Nintendo has released which isn't a remaster is solely focused on openworld gameplay with no desire to backtrack into the classic linear style of the "good ol' days". With such a track record and no news or leaks of future Zelda titles in the horizon it would seem Nintendo has all but made up their minds as to what their bussiness model will be for The Legend of Zelda with no backtracking to classic gameplay regardless of feedback and personal opinion from the old fandom. The evidence speaks for itself as to what comes next for the franchise and so i don't justification to stay hopeful for a return to the old formula when both the series and developers have shown their only path for the future of the series is onwards with no reason to go back to what fans once loved from earlier titles. _"I also want to point out that just because a Zelda is open-air doesn't mean it can't have everything that makes the older games great"_ I agree which is why the fandom is currently split on the matter as to wether Nintendo should even backtrack to classic gameplay in future games or simply stick to openworld indefinetly with slight "nods" to linear gameplay and story for old fans's sake. The franchise has reached a turning point with Tears of the Kingdom's reestatement of what they see to be the way forward and so a large part of the community feels wary that regardless of what we think, feel or wish the newer games brought back Nintendo has permanently turned page on the old formula completley sticking to the openworld style and all the innovation it brings along with it. It's the End of an Era.

[@jasons.9389]

I really liked BOTW and TOTK. No complaints from me.

[@Rudykawa]

I disagree a bit in the beginning when saying the main thing of Zelda is the story when with Nintendo the main thing is always gameplay. And I love that about Nintendo, because nintendo is still one of the few pillars of prioritizing gameplay. Nowadays the games are all about graphics + story, becoming carbon copies of Assassins Creed, Last of Us or similars with boring gameplay of fake platforming/parkouring.

[@ZeldaLore]

What I said was that it is the story that drew people to the series. Ocarina of Time wouldn´t be so beloved if it werent for its story, for example. Imagine if Ocarina of Time released with no story, no dialogue, no music, no textures, just geometric shapes with white textures for the environment, and a capsule for the player, the game reduced to purely its gameplay. It would be fun, but it would not retain the players or immerse them into the game. That's why the story is so important.

[@brydonprice6216]

​@@ZeldaLorespeaking from my own experience the gameplay and exploration itself was what initially drew me in. Story was always just a bonus, even if that wasn't good I could easily still love the game so long as those other things were good.

[@PebblesOTB]

I don't care about lack of structure

[@daniel8181]

Yeah, they made the gameplay much more accessible, but sadly, it seems like they want to lock the story behind an iq barrier. I mean, I love it, but I'm also a big brain, and its sad to think you guys are still stuck on the hungry caterpillar.

[@Flynnisthename]

I think this is peak “you control the buttons you press.” Video critic I’ve ever seen. I care about the story so I went out to find it, as did everyone else who wanted to know more. If players don’t want to engage in that that’s fine. The game gives you a choice, that isn’t a bad thing. I agree that seeing some of the beats out of order is a little dissatisfying, but I resent the idea that the only way to tell a good story is through the hero’s journey or linear story progression.

[@michaelolympus5994]

i still think TOTK timeline existed because Zelda time travelled. BOTW is where Zelda didn't. TOTK is not the true sequel to BOTW.

[@javiervasquez625]

Until Nintendo confirms such a possibility we can only stick to what has been _confirmed_ according to the official japanese timeline page of The Legend of Zelda which states Tears of the Kingdom to be a *sequel* to Breath of the Wild. Unless the page states otherwise in the future we have no choice but to go by what it says otherwise we're delving into unconfirmed especulation devoid of any canonical information.

[@michaelolympus5994]

@@javiervasquez625 the memory in the geoglyph in Lake Hylia showed Rauru telling Zelda about a timeline where she didn't go back in time. There would've been a very different situation during the Imprisoning War which led to the BOTW events. I don't know. I just don't want the "official" statements to be the canon ones. Creating a different interpretation of the games is fun to do. 😂

[@javiervasquez625]

@@michaelolympus5994 That was a _misunderstanding_ from Rauru's part just like when he said he is the "first king of Hyrule last he heard". Since he and Sonia had no idea of the time *loop* which triggered the events of the Imprisioning War and the following battles against Calamity Ganon he had the impression that Zelda's arrival to the past was an unprecedented event which wasn't preordained within the same timeline (as later proven with the revelation of Ganondorf's imprisonment). I guess i can understand the desire to carve one's own seperate interpretations of the game's narrative both for the fun of it and to "fix" Nintendo's own underwhelming narrative style but when it comes to the time _loop_ depicted in Tears of the Kingdom the story is so staggeringly clear on the matter of Zelda's pressence in the past been the catalyst for the following events in Breath of the Wild AND Tears of the Kingdom that arguing against it at this point is no different than rewritting the story of the game itself.

[@stevejeffrey11]

The main reason Botw and Totk's story has less impact is because it happens in the ancient past instead of the present- pretty boring to go see memories of something happened 100+ years ago & not live it through the gameplay like Ocarina

[@painuchiha2694]

Disagree soo much with the issue of fighting ganon straight away from the beginning That’s a really cool feature not an issue but I agree the story needs more structure if you’re doing everything

[@DNotzz]

Yea, I was really shocked they decided to tell TOTK’s entire story through flashbacks again. Like they upgraded so many areas of the game except the way the story was told…it’s exactly the same as it was in BOTW. It goes to show that the stories of these games really are just an afterthought. It’s possible to have a huge open-world, sandbox type game WITH a linear story that is told. I just don’t get it…they are so creative with game mechanics and adding new abilities but all their creative juices run out when it comes to the story…ahh just throw in some memories to be found around the map and we’ll tell the story that way again -.-