The Latest Smogon Tiering Drama

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#pokemonshowdown #pokemon #competitivepokemon #stall

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

www.smogon.com/forums/threads/separate-classic-gens-1-5-from-modern-tiering-policy.3741600/

[@mariodegenzgz]

Thank the Lord for this video. After all those sub 30 min videos in the past few weeks, I was afraid BKC might be dipping his toes in the KZbin Shorts pool soon

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

If it ain't a KZbin long it's a KZbin wrong

[@blackabe111]

With the 30 minute video BKC decided to try the KZbin shorts format but he has returned

[@MaahirMomtaz12]

KZbin Shorts makes fast money

[@wentoneisendon6502]

Oh no lol I just commented for my preference for the shorter form vids. I really like the 20-30 minute ones

[@julius.caesar.]

@@wentoneisendon6502”if it’s not a KZbin long it’s a KZbin wrong”. -- Some guy in a comment section(no idea who said this)

[@UnstoppableAdam]

"Uhhhh, this guy's uhhh....pro scald ban, I'm actually suddenly very sympathetic to him" killed me

[@Ahamkeira]

The reality of the human condition

[@mmsnorby]

It's so funny to me that this problem comes from higher ups at smogon worried about their reputation. Their negative reputation doesn't come from banning things, it comes from complete inflexibility, a lack of creativity, and an unwillingness to meet their communities halfway. Y'know, all the traits they're exemplifying here.

[@scooter9537]

its double as funny when its their reputation in regards to gens casuals will never talk about lmfao. casuals riot when funny dracovish gets banned casuals could not give less of a fuck about 15 year old metas

[@ByrneBaby]

misplaced pride goes hard

[@ShinyTillDawn]

They just love Power trips because they have nothing else to do IRL

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

⁠@@ShinyTillDawnDamn, I don’t know the smogon counsel was full of Krookodiles.

[@sintheemptyone8108]

Corruption: community edition.

[@pizzapie081]

"complex bans are too hard to follow" lol if i was a new player seeing that i can't use iron head with a serene grace mon because it is listed in the ruleset would be less difficult than figuring out why my potential sleep powder + leaf storm + spikes roserade set is illegal...

[@ShinyTillDawn]

facts

[@borby4584]

or why I can't use Shiny Jirachi in Gen 4 OU, even though you CAN legally get a shiny Jirachi! (US Colo Bonus Disk doesn't shiny lock it. It's rare, yes, but not *impossible*)

[@melanie735]

You know the post is right when they pull up with the "not open for further replies." Peng is a hero on almost the level of Ryan Gosling.

[@GlowstickLamps]

Man I love complex bans, it's always great to see the motto of "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", where we crack down on problematic things whislt keeping the healthy things within the metagames! Too bad Smogon's ancient royalty hates the idea of flexibility and actually conversing with their communities :p

[@EclipseonPMD]

Route 216 in the thumbnail is not for Froslass. It's actually BKC alluding to the latest cool The Fridge podcast upload. This is "heat"

[@GhGh-gq8oo]

Nice mental illness background. What’s that one mean?

[@amberhernandez]

If another Fridge episode overtakes BKC's in length, he would be the kind of guy to hop back in and reclaim his record by over an hour in rambling lmao

[@Weavileiscool]

@@amberhernandezthere would be two bathroom breaks in it

[@Mixxium]

@@Weavileiscool Dear god, the world itself couldn't handle such an event.

[@Miss-Alexis]

I feel like the number one thing stopping Smogon from improving, based on all the BKC videos I've watched, is people who don't play a tier having way too much influence over it, whether they be forum trolls expressing unhelpful opinions for the sake of participating, policy thumpers think change is inherently bad, or hypothetical new players who would be turned off by "complicated" rules. Personally, idk why new players being scared off by complex bans is a more valid argument than new players being scared off by broken stuff that isn't being banned. Both are purely hypothetical and roughly equally realistic, afaik

[@fartface8918]

Aye, even more so when the argument "old players will leave if we don't deal with the things bothering them" never seems to come up

[@EmilyBodoo]

As someone who was a new player three years ago (specifically on Smogon, I’ve been playing Pokemon in general since childhood), I can say that I was “scared” by the complex rules of OU, and therefore I left to play AG, which I still play today. So, this shouldn't be a problem as long as AG exists.

[@BensonMakesMusic]

Smogon Tiering Drama in the title: check. Froslass in the thumbnail: check. Video is an hour long: double check. Ohhhhh we're eating good today lads.

[@HunnyDoo]

froslass be catching strays

[@ShinyTillDawn]

But he forgot the bathroom break in the first 20 min of the video

[@victorycry8849]

I’m a communications major close to graduation and I’m most likely never going to go for a masters degree. But if I do, I’m writing my thesis on Smogon and the strange pseudo-democratic structures of its community and tiering. Your videos are all the research I need.

[@immortalmachine5839]

I think whats funniest about the fictional "new player" that wont play because of more made up rules, is the REALITY, that less people are playing because of the complete lack of effective tiering action

[@Snagavitch]

Gen 5 was my favorite for a long time and I dropped it. Also lost my fav DPP team cuz it froslass. I haven’t touched either in months

[@immortalmachine5839]

@RedBloodedMale777 I haven't played either of these tiers, and the idea of playing against iron head jirachi isn't thrilling

[@Snagavitch]

@@immortalmachine5839 I have actually rarely been cheesed by that but I do understand the sentiment for tournament play and agree it should go

[@sheilwood]

Curse you BKC. You've turned me into a drama junkie. I now forever search for my next fix of smogon tiering drama

[@piratebear3126]

Banning singular Abilities or Moves should have never been considered a complex ban, period. When I was 8 I could understand why Stadium banned OHKO moves (EDIT: Stadium doesn’t, but 8 year old could still understand why Smogon does). Even in Gen 9 everyone knew that Last Respects was the problem, but the PU Houndstone was banned to Ubers for months until Basculegion forced the issue. Someone needs to make a competing old Gen simulator and get out from under Smogon if they’re not going to let communities make decisions that are best for their metas. When it comes to speed running individual games are allowed to set their own rules because it would ridiculous to have a governing council over thousands of games. At this point competitive Pokemon is essentially a dozen different metas that need to be handled by their communities.

[@EmilyBodoo]

What do you mean Stadium banned OHKO moves? There was some CPU trainers with Horn Drill and Fissure. And I personally was using OHKO while playing Pokemon Stadium. Or you talking about some different thing maybe

[@piratebear3126]

@@EmilyBodoo I could have sworn Stadiums banned OHKO moves, or at least had an option in Stadium 2’s customs rule mode, but I guess I was mixing it up with the Explosion/Perish Song clauses. Which in my defense is also more complex than banning a move, as is Smogon’s Sleep clause that doesn’t count Rest.

[@EmilyBodoo]

@@piratebear3126 but I was using Explosion and Perish Song on Stadium too...

[@GlitchPichu]

@@EmilyBodoo they mean the clause where you lose if your last mon uses them regardless of gamestate

[@CoralReaper707]

"not open for further replies" Idk about you, but I think locking replies alone just ended up fueling the fire.

[@cwynwyn2934]

I'll be honest, the more I hear about Smogon tiering policy, the more I feel like Godzilla is going to destroy Tokyo.

[@saberfromfate]

says a lot about BKC's love for mons that hes putting up with all this. super agree on your point about "complex bans potentially scaring off new players" being silly, as most new players in a tier are either going to copy a team they find somewhere anyway. plus, showdown has a "check if team is legal" button that tells you whats allowed in the builder, which shouldnt make this a problem anyway

[@mcjd931]

This is gonna end up with the senior staff completely changing the past tiers and throwing at all complex bans to make them “conform to modern policy” isn’t it

[@deneb1110]

i'm SO ready for drypass to be banned

[@mcjd931]

@@deneb1110 weather setting ability ban coming soon to BW OU trust

[@annaangelic2318]

A rejected policy to divide gens 1-5 from gen 6 onward is going to cause the tiering council to “completely” change metas like GSC OU… do you hear yourself? What conspiracy?

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

​@@mcjd931"drought and drizzle are banned" gen V OU unironically sounds fucking kino

[@R.P.Genocraft]

Smogon's aversion to complex bans is so goddamn funny. You're already playing a made-up ruleset and the game is modded to not allow 2 sleeps, just do whatever the hell the dedicated playerbase wants

[@brennantmi5063]

The rule set with sleep clause is from pokemon stadium.

[@R.P.Genocraft]

@@brennantmi5063 wow, so next they're gonna mod freeze into frostbite because that's also how it is in another spinoff 🤯

[@iantaakalla8180]

I understand that yes, the point of simple bans is that otherwise the game is vastly different than what is wanted, but honestly at this point it is vastly different because GameFreak gears for VGC/doubles and that’s it, and singles has to scramble to make sense. To be fair to them, they have never accidentally broken their code except to eliminate broken luck strats, but at this point they are looking to remove sleep in general and they can’t justify with any in-game Pokémon mode.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

but the sleep clause we use is slightly different

[@hannahbriarly4192]

​@@brennantmi5063it's not even the same as how it works in stadium

[@Snagavitch]

Went to play gen4 a month or so ago after taking a multi month hiatus. To see that my favorite team couldn’t load because of a froslass lead was pretty funny. I’ve never seen it’s ability take effect after hundreds of games but black letter law matters more than fun in a competitive children’s game :-)

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

The idea of banning a whole Pokémon instead of the actual problematic aspect of an otherwise reasonable Pokémon is the dumbest idea for the community. If Walmart saw a 6 year old walk in with a fully loaded Rocket Launcher, don't you think that they would put a ban on Rocket Launchers as that is the actual problem? If they are gonna say "Rocket Launchers are not the problem." and wait until Michael, 34, who's wife just left him walks in with a Rocket Launcher because there was no sign on the door saying he couldn't, doesn't that sound like a bad idea? This isn't a "slippery slope" where Kyogre is legal but its only move is Water Gun with minimum PP and only 30 EV's max and it starts with -2 Special Defense and -1 Speed. Walmart wouldn't let a military tank through the door because they removed the tank's firing mechanism and lowered the speed the tank can move just to say "We allowed a tank in our store!" in the local newspaper.

[@alecrutz956]

water gun kyogre 🤣🤣🤣

[@BookofConke]

I would be down to just make Peng BW dictator if it were possible to. He's got a good head for the metagame and have agreed with practically everything he's ever had to say about it and I hope his proposal gains traction. In all my interactions with him he's always had absolute integrity and keeps the actual playerbase as well as the competitive experience of the game the priority. Just give us the autonomy to make the decisions that are best for our metas.

[@BladeRabbit]

The banlist for Gen 5 is already incredibly bloated and confusing as a new player. I only just recently found out Sleep was banned as a whole.

[@LRXC1]

Legitimate Usernames posts are insufferable to read, good lord

[@Snagavitch]

Just hit that part of the vid and then saw the goat had the same idea as me LOL

[@reg4835]

my favorite form of entertainment, smogon tiering drama

[@joeldixton5627]

18:53 as an ex girlfriend once told me, "just because you admit you're an asshole doesn't mean you have an excuse to act like an asshole"

[@_Crowuh]

I'm not sure where that 'new player' complex ban argument comes from. ADV OU's Baton Pass rule is one of the harder ones to explain but I could understand it pretty easily when I was new to the tier. (This isn't to say I'm smart or anything for it, its to say that new players don't have to have their hands held about complex bans. "X Pokemon cannot use X move" is not hard to understand.)

[@Coteup]

"But banning Gorilla Tactics instead of Darm is just so impossible for casuals to understand!"

[@Weavileiscool]

That’s a bit of a throwback now lol

[@xham-ik9yr]

Thats not a complex ban

[@Coteup]

@@xham-ik9yr Really? That's the argument the mods made when the discussion was happening. "We don't ban abilities instead of Pokemon, it's too complex and opens up a can of worms"

[@xham-ik9yr]

@@Coteup Banning abilities is not complex, arena trap and shadow tag bans are not complex bans, a complex ban is banning two different abilities on the same team, or a pokemon with a specific ability

[@MacZephyrZ]

"But what if a hypothetical new pokemon gets released with Gorilla tactics gets released in the future! What if Magikarp had Gorilla Tactics, would the ability still be banworthy then?" People were making up imaginary pokemon to justify the ban. They did the same thing with Last Respects. "What if somehow Basculegion miraculously doesn't end up being broken with it? Better play it safe and just ban all of Houndstone instead."

[@tkc5980]

It is clear to me that the top of the Hierarchy has grown corrupt, Smogon no longer exists to serve the betterment of pokemon formats. Those on top no longer care about democratic will nor even balance, they ultimately seem to be motivated by a desire to keep control over something and to keep things their way, no matter wether it is good or popular. I am wondering if the only solution might not be a reset, import the tiers from Smogon but within a new Structure with less rigid beaurocracy. The Smogon elite holds it's place due to sheer inertia, and it no longer serves the playerbase. I am not saying that all of smogon is bad, but I think that the very top of it has become complacent and no longer cares about what is good for everyone.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

People have wilder accusations about the bureaucracy in Smogon

[@tkc5980]

@@ShinyTillDawn I know, I have witnessed an Innocent being banned by an ego tripping smogon admin. The tiering problems are a symptom of a wider corruption

[@ShinyTillDawn]

@@tkc5980 There's more than just that 😳

[@xdxd7908]

Guillotine

[@redlesse9913]

It's a good idea, but the limiting factor is that PS's main server (and thus ladders) have their rules set by Smogon. Ladder is how everyone gets into old gens. We would need to break Smogon's hold on ladder in order to get anything done.

[@jonahschmidtke7246]

Paused the video at 0 seconds to comment that I instantly liked it due to the shiny excadrill used in the thumbnail

[@jschmidty2332]

In the rare event that I run into a complex ban in a tier that I'm new to, usually I will think "huh, that's weird," then proceed to change my team so that it no longer breaks the rules and never give it a second thought

[@ReggieKSanshire]

Smogon: “Am I really going to defile these classic gen metagames for the hell of it? *OF COURSE I AM!”*

[@Senorlopez2]

I would like to add fuel to the fire and see a video on the notorious shadow council

[@whomgod420]

As Oscar Wilde said, "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy". I'm glad Pokemon really did prepare me for real life.

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

for anyone who doesn't want to watch the whole video i'll sum this debate up with a little example. im an adv ou player i love the tier, and i know that gimmicky baton pass cheese isn't popular at high ladder because it's garbage and gets shut down easily by roar, so lets say i back myself to deal with suicune and dragon dancers in other ways and drop roar on my team coz i can't fit it, then suddenly im in a game where my opponent leads ninjask. i've led ttar so im forced to rock slide, but i miss and ninjask gets a subsitute, then it starts sand attacking while im incapable of doing anything to stop it, then it baton passes to swords dance marowak and with the free turns it instantly sweeps me 6-0. if you're a human being then you'd say i got cheesed by something stupid, i shouldn't be expected to prepare for sand attack ninjask, and maybe think hmmm would this tier be more fun if we banned sand attack? but apparently im just an idiot who doesn't realise how much would be lost if we banned sand attack, and it might make newer players not try adv because they can't use sand attack, and i have no way of proving that a sand attack ban would actually improve the metagame. and someone else might chime in to let me know that max speed max attack skarmory with keen eye, drill peck and hp ground actually beats ninjask+magneton so really im just not good at teambuilding. but most importantly, i forgot that the point of gen 3 ou isn't for me to enjoy competitive games, the actual competition is between people who don't know who swampert is having a "weeing contest" to make the paragraph at the start of each game as short as possible, so im just a silly billy and should be quiet

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

The correct course of action here is to: -ban baton pass Or -ban ninjask (if ninjask had a second ability banning speedboost would also be good)

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

@@tinfoilslacks3750 i do agree that ninjask is a bad presence in the metagame and i personally would like it to be banned, but it's no way near powerful enough to deserve that it's just annoying, that's why i singled out sand attack because it's objectively stupid and adds nothing whatsoever to the tier. as for baton pass itself, i think it's pretty healthy with the complex ban i only dislike ninjask and people who spam it with badly built matchup fishy teams

[@user-eo2tg5cx7i]

If they are so focused on not upsetting the casuals they should just make BSS an official Smogon tier and let OU councils just do what they want. So when a non-player makes a non-argument about how certain specific combination being disallowed is anti-casual then they can just point towards BSS

[@bigchungus7870]

I've never been so disappointed in smogon since the frosslass/glaceon ban

[@KusogeMan]

What is frosslas and glaceon ban?

[@bigchungus7870]

@@KusogeMan They banned snow cloak and as collateral froslass and glaceon were both banned since that was their only ability

[@VoltaVoid]

I haven't watched the video yet, but I think Smeargle should be OU in ADV

[@ShinyTillDawn]

It's too gimmicky to have high usage stats

[@techmark3665]

@@ShinyTillDawnADV tiering isn’t based on usage

[@varelasensei]

Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is usually the best one. Applied to this: The simplest solution is to change the tiering policy. Unfortunately, the Smogon Council is calculating infinite permutations of "how can we avoid fucking up any further", all while not realizing that by doing so they are fucking up further.

[@LunarWingCloud]

This might be a hot take But metagames with smaller playerbases should just make whatever bans they need to test the waters. They can always revert a ban if it doesn't end up working. A smaller playerbase means people at large really aren't paying much attention to it so why the hell does having a pristine image even matter when no one's really going to notice that doesn't already play?

[@LeCheckmate]

Yeah. The tiers being discussed don't have a pristine image to begin with.

[@xuanathan]

"Understanding a complex ban would just be too hard for new players" you think thats hard for a new player look at idk, building a solid team, thats way the fuck harder

[@internetguy7319]

People like Finchinator say they are not super full pro status quo and then will like posts like Star's Almost everyone who liked Star's post is one of these people who are entrenched in higher power at Smogon, who are inherently pro status quo. Ultimately this Smogon politics is not a big deal, but it's important to realize this

[@stupidflandrs4856]

38:00 I still didn't know about the Intimidate after U-turning on a sub thing until you just mentioned it here wtf

[@ziggmiceter]

In terms of accessibility, one major reason why I've never tried DPP OU is Iron Head Jirachi and knowing how good it is. Metas are more accessible when they're healthy.

[@dogwithswag]

As a relatively new player (4-5 months now), i find that the barrier to entry to old gen competitive Pokemon is by its very nature, quite steep. You really have to want to play these meta games to do so. Even the layout of the showdown client, having the old gens being a few more clicks away, as a ui choice, naturally discourages people from checking these unique meta games out. This "filtering" leaves only the most dedicated, to learn all the intricacies. With all this being said, if someone jumped through all these hoops, i doubt how unfriendly a "complex" ban would be that bad.

[@Snagavitch]

I didn’t touch older gens until I had played for 6 years of modern gen. And it was still a big learning curve. But not a single ban, complex or not was the reason

[@smergthedargon8974]

"Nobody wants to make this drastic chance, so we are just constantly left frustrated and having to put up with the same stupid problems over and over again." Hmmm, where have I heard this before...

[@F3XT]

crazy the Ortheore guy was arguing against democracy in the world in a poor argument to try to justify not making a complex ban lmao

[@danf7411]

I love playing difficulty hacks and occasionally random battles... i just cant jump into comp because of all this tiering nonsense and inability to change any policy... its lame

[@dadragonslayer7665]

I find this halarious to see poeple look at the suggestion of, ban Sandforce and go: "We cant do complex bans!" Guys... Arenatrap is banned. What is the diffrenze between banning Sandforce and banning Arenatrap? Its the same. And if a new player is overwhelemed by simply reading, you can not use abiity A, B, C and D, then maybe Pokemon is not the game for them... In all honesty, i would not shed a tear, if we would ban Excadrill and spikes in BW ou, but banning Sandforce is much simpler and should achive the same results. And the opinion that we should only ban mons i very stupid. If a move is a problem, ban the move. If an abilty is a problem, ban the ability. If a mon is a problem, ban the mon. For an example right now Baton pass is the only hair in my soup, that is gen 3 ou. Wich could be fixed in three ways: Ban baton pass (wich is the worse of the two), ban statboost passing (better, but not jet optimal), or ban the worst abuser of the move: Ninjask. But for two of these options, the old gen councils are powerless to do something about it. So what i would suggest is: only and ONLY the old gen councils are doing the tiering policy of theire respctiv tiers. There, problem solved. But, once again, this propaply not going to happen...

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

Banning sandforce isn't a complex ban. That's a normal ban. A complex ban would be "Sand Rush excadrill specifically is banned, all other sand rush users and all other excadrill versions are unbanned"

[@dadragonslayer7665]

@@tinfoilslacks3750 And what would we effectivly loose, if we did ban sandforce? Sandforve Dugtrio? Is that even a loss? Because lets be sirious here; who uses that?

[@piku2able]

Why can we just modify the game by adding an useless ability to froslass or even Cursed Body in dpp?? Like, we are allowing Rayquazas with IVs that are not posible in gen IV, or not programming Acid Rain on purpose. If we are gonna be “faithful” then we should also add a 20 minute limit to both gen VIII and IX IDK why can we “skip “ some stuff from the cartridge. We want a competitive integrity and we could polish some stuff. Like, why don’t we just suspect freeze in every single gen for example

[@ShinyTillDawn]

It is arbitrary on what is preserved and what isn't. I do like the concept of Pokémon being allowed if they had no ability due to a mod suppressing broken abilities, but it might over step a well-established line on how far we deviate from cartridge mechanics.

[@amberhernandez]

Are there any details on the Rayquaza with impossible IVs issue? I've tried searching for it, including in the forums, but could not get anything but random slop.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

@@amberhernandez Due to RNG limitations in generations 3 & 4, it's technically impossible to get some static legendary Pokémon with certain natures that have either perfect IVs or IVs for a hidden power.

[@amberhernandez]

@@ShinyTillDawn I owe you my life.

[@Luna-Lux]

@@ShinyTillDawn would it be too much to ban those hidden powers? Surely there's a compiled list of every illegal IV spread if the RNG is that well understood

[@pokegarchomp]

It seems like after a set amount of years (call it 8? 10?) of a metagame being available they could open it up to more specific tiering action. Ive been sympathetic in the past to the slippery slope arguments about level 80 Kyogre etc but at some point in a metagames life cycle it becomes pretty clear whats good and bad for the tier

[@andrewrobinson8542]

If the majority of the playerbase and the council wants Level 80 Kyogre... why the hell not? If it somehow genuinely made the metagame better and more competitive... why should we care if it looks weird?

[@LL-xh3qr]

"tiering policy mains" LOL

[@exclamation744]

Surely, no one important will read this, but listening to BKC talk on the issue, I really wanted to type all of this out. I am a spectator of 6v6 singles. I don't play the game of 6v6 singles, but I love watching the game and learning more about the game. Moreover, I am just some guy; someone whose mettle has never been tested in competition Why do the old-gen player bases just take it like this? You realize that the higher council effectively is just saying "we assume old-gen players are incapable of reading lengthy rules (but will read lengthy forums posts because who needs logical consistency), and thus we must make it as dumbed-down as possible." Don't you guys find that insulting? Have you ever actually seen how lengthy and in-depth the rules are for other esports, or even just typical sports? Very lengthy rulebooks can be found there. Plus, if you're getting into any video game in a competitive capacity, you are already going to be reading mountains of text in guides. Unfortunately, you can't just go make your own battle simulator, internet forum (plz no Discord, I miss being able to search a forum for stuff easily), etc. Or, can you...?

[@birthdayninjah]

Ban Kinjask Calready

[@vvvvaaaacccc]

fine tuning for old gens, coarse tuning for new gens!

[@AndrewRKenny]

peng so based. Also "just adapt" will forever be such a garbage argument. Any format of anything can develop, but the skills valued and the direction of development are what matter in the face of that. We could add guns and legalize murder in basketball and people could "just adapt" as gun usage becomes the predominant overcentralizing force of the new metagame. But that's stupid and compromises all of the established values of basketball, so we ban it. For a less extreme example, if you allow people to hold each other in defense, then the entire game will begin to trend towards valuing players who can hold another player or even players (plural) in place because of how powerful of an option that is. But again, it's not allowed because it compromises the skills we actually care about in basketball. It's insane to me that so many people cannot seem to comprehend this principle and how it applies to the concept of "tier identity". Anyway based video even though it's just another context point for you to make the same points for the 100th time lmao. Maybe this time will be the one (clueless)!

[@ShinyTillDawn]

People adapting was the excuse to keep Tauros allowed in RBY over 25 years ago

[@BottleDeopt]

That same argument "just adapt" is the exact reason why I'm also completely against banning things a tier via suspect test because if it was that problematic, it would already have been quickbanned without a test and the majority of players would understand where the stance came about. Kyogre coming down to OU in BW? Forget about it

[@LeCheckmate]

Understood. Let's add guns to BW OU.

[@AndrewRKenny]

@@ShinyTillDawn Sorry, bad wording on my end. I'm not* trying to say that "adapt" isn't the answer to plenty of situations, rather that handwaving any criticism of anything with "just adapt" and implying that because it isn't quite literally unplayable it's perfectly fine, and therefore any changes anybody wants is because they are bad and "can't adapt" to the metagame is very shortsighted.

[@ordinaryorca9334]

So often smogon tiering forgets that they are there to serve the players. I don't care if the tiering looks chaotic or whatever, make the game more fun and stable, that is literally your job. And all they do is say no, at least offer an alternative. How can the tiering system change in a way that gen 5 would consider banning broken stuff or gen 4 with iron head jirachi. I think I speak for most that if these problems were merely hypothetical, we wouldn't mind keeping the current way of tiering. Now you are just ignoring the problems because you don't like the look of the solutions.

[@z-leigh6554]

One thing that might be nice in these videos is favoring cutting off the username, and instead showing the cut off text to the right, or zooming the recording out to show the entire thing. But I imagine that there are at least a few reasons for the way things are currently done.

[@Luna-Lux]

Just on the blaze blaziken point, I actually like it cus endure + salac berry makes it usable and the blaze boost helps a lot It's a gimmick but it's at least something to consider

[@tysondennis1016]

If a Pokémon is bad, it should be allowed to drop to a lower tier where it will be more at home.

[@GhGh-gq8oo]

I agree with following these rules as if they are set in stone and just for the ends to follow said rules is super cringy. At that point your end isn’t even the balance and enjoyment of the tier but to uphold the rules as if this is some common law judicial system lol. “Muh precedent” lmao

[@EndingNote111]

""the people will always know what to do" is something that doesn't make sense when you look at the world right now, nvm throughout history" Really is a sentence that was written, in the context of, defending the refusal to let experienced players improve a metagame by vote in a children rpg battle simulator... lol

[@rubadub15]

Sad the thread is closed because i want to speak up on this.

[@krazy958]

Love how people treat the Smogon tiering rules like some god-given scripture. Theres no reason that it should be strictly adhered to and not changed in any way.

[@krazy958]

Mod the game to remove flinch chance🔮

[@lordinfernape4753]

Serene Grace + Flinch Moves would actually be a good idea, tbh even Togekiss is annoying with that

[@alecrutz956]

as what you could absolutely call a "new player" someone who has only played a little of gen 3, gen 2, and only really played a lot more of gen 1, and nothing in gen 4 or beyond, the complexity of trying to figure out what pokemon and what stat spread to use is arguably far "worse" than simply reading the complicated rules. I can wrap my head around rules, I can't quite wrap my head around EV spreads :( guys just use complex bans if it's such a big deal

[@peternicholas3719]

I don't agree with the use of "accessible" in the context of complex bans.

[@theonewhodoesrants]

I agree with basically everything being said here (albeit I sympathize with the opposition's argument a bit more since, as someone who isn't very involved but familiar with mechanics, I understand what makes complex bans irritating to learn), but the references to the Annihilape suspect always throw me off. Again, not a great player, but I don't understand why it was banned instead of just Rage Fist besides "because policy", and not being able to use one of my favorite pokemon does personally dissuade me from wanting to learn the gen 9 metagame.

[@carucath97]

In that case it does kinda make sense as Primeape also learns Rage Fist and isn’t broken

[@bruhbruh4329]

Because it's a min-maxxed to hell 535 BST monster with 2 great offensive types.

[@nSenuh]

BKC

[@OmegaTyrant]

Thank you Google for translating "BKC" as "BKC".

[@OneMoreDesu]

The shadow cabal strike again

[@ultrabyssal]

there's something extremely weird about the "what about the new guys who find this too restrictive" mentality; when i was completely new to the competitive scene starting with bw + bw2, i was completely undeterred by any bans at the time! i've never felt alienated by bans after understanding *why* stuff might be banned. i mean we know it's because smogon's higher ups are scared of change but it's a completely bullshit mentality when given how much competitive pokemon keeps rising in popularity

[@corasolagalar]

I feel like im going insane reading these

[@krazy958]

Its like watching people debating that the sky is green and somehow winning

[@tfobla]

if the beaurocracy isn't listening we could always try organized protest. after all, this is politics. maybe i'm being naiive but a boycott of high level tournaments by respected community members is surely to spark SOME kind of change, right? like "if u guys arent going to accept proposals that have been brought up for years, we're going to stop showing up to SPLs" or something.

[@Snagavitch]

I think the issue with that is that the tourneys would just fill up with worse active players. It’s not like we have huge amounts of fans tuning in either. The council could even finally be good enough to make it into tourney and there egos would love that

[@Mixxium]

56:29 also I think Pideous meant a lower level of power here, like the pokemon themselves are weaker than in newer gens

[@LordBeau]

Seeing star once again have a bad and awful take at the end of the video doesn’t surprise me. between this and voting to unban sneasler at the beginning of DLC 2 SVOU she hasn’t exactly had a streak of good takes

[@tbag4465]

Ahh a long BKC video, natural order has been restored

[@peterh2223]

56:35 He definitely means in terms of activity when he says lower level of play.

[@harmless_xd4107]

the two rejected posts on policy review are this and cloyster ban #nooticing

[@shortpitched713]

Shouldn't we need less rule changes over time for older metas? Isn't a circumstance where we feel the need to accelerate the rate of an old meta's changes an admission of failure in ever establishing competitive a competitive metagame for the meta in question?

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

Glad to see finally that people are waking up to how stupid flinchrachi is

[@deparinge]

I also thought quixotic was pronounced like the actual name is in English, but no, apparently it's pronounced how it's spelled.

[@caseydamon8005]

btw quixotic is pronounced kwik-sadik. A fittingly funny word.

[@Gear1211]

The one thing is you always say tiering admin but we dont even know who they are

[@viva64_]

Breaking News: Smogon discovers a new idea called "balance of powers."

[@halogamer41]

Thank you.

[@joshb3024]

Old gens shouldn't be curated at all

[@KaosSakana]

Don't ban Iron Head Jirachi in Gen 4. It's fine. I am that guy that might try gen 4 ou again, as long as I can use my paralyze team with Jirachi and Machamp. And yes, this is entirely unironic.

[@gillsejusbates6938]

you ar not that guy pal

[@KaosSakana]

@@gillsejusbates6938 I promise you, I am that guy who likes running Iron Head Jirachi and Dynamic Punch + sub Machamp on a paralyze team in gen 4 OU. But I doubt I'm the only one.

[@Weavileiscool]

#freeFroslass

[@1davidj]

I feel like gen 4 jirachi is the most bulletproof argument in favor of complex tiering. - 60% flinch chance on a scarf pokemon is obviously uncompetitive, balance aside - Players largely agree that it's too strong as well - However, players refuse to ban jirachi bc it's too important for the rest of the metagame How do you address this without supporting a complex ban? You'd have to take the position that it's better to keep an obviously uncompetitive and likely overpowered pokemon than it is to implement a complex ban. How can you claim to care about the health of the tier with this position?

[@jenisia3600]

Smogon's image was damaged when they banned Swift Swim Kingdra in Gen v, but freaking broken Lando wasn't 🤷

[@dastardlydwarf6909]

It’s at times like this when I think I really wish there was an alternative to smogon like how pokemon perfect used to be before it just became an old gen discord tournament server.

[@tuberialolicon-tanuki6533]

What exactly keeps all those communities captive within smogon (or preventing stuff like strikes)? The tournaments? Lack of engineers if they branch out? Is it just a community not invested enough to do tiering the long painful way not being invested enough for some serious upheaval? And of course i have to rant about the clownish take of looking at past tiering (and the world) an pretending the voice of the people is stupid: 1 - All decisions _the people_ get to "make" (more like influence but someone else approves), are done under the understanding that after the curtain of this case is down, the same bullshit system will remain in place and we shall remain as powerless. No one can in good faith ignore this when looking at the state of a political climate. 2 - _The people_ doesn't automatically know the best solution for everything, no one believes that. Making good decisions takes practice, trial and error, educating new generations. But as long we don't have and retain power and don't start taking decisions we will remain political babies forever. Just stay out of the way of the competent and involved players for god's sake. If they're wrong, then they're just committing mistakes of their own, but they can fix them.

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

Because there is basically nowhere else to play completive singles Pokémon. And how are they supposed to do a smogon revolution? Strikes won’t matter since it’s not like they are making money off the website.

[@tuberialolicon-tanuki6533]

@@waluigiisthebest2802 many players are basically organized already, and do stuff like their own tournaments with their own rules and custom showdown servers with custom tiers. That's relevant if it came to worse and people wanted to leave smogon and create their own place. When it comes to "strikes", I'm talking of the tournament community refusing to participate in big tournaments like spl, doing demonstration matches, mass quiting the councils and so on. I'm sure more involved people could come up with more ways to put real pressure. Both routes are possible, I just don't know if they are viable. A possibility I didn't even thought of before is that by whatching drama videos I'm getting a biased image of how much frustration there is, but in reality most players find the current situation acceptable.

[@grahamthorpe5033]

I wish marrilands forums won out. Smogon is pretentious.

[@Mixxium]

If smogon wants to keep doing this there are still other battle simulators, and it's not the most complicated thing to do to set up. BW OU can leave smogon if they don't fuck off. BwOU is not that stupid council.

[@asap6763]

FIrst time watching this channel, nice vid

[@mushi1480]

I love Smogon Tiering Drama

[@KeatsLionel-x5q]

Thomas Donna Gonzalez Elizabeth Martinez Steven

[@xham-ik9yr]

Why are some of the comments complaing about gen 8/9 tiering when this video isnt about that, complex bans are stupid most of the time and can have bad consequences, there is no problem in just banning pokemon or moves/abilities in current gen because if something else is broken we can just ban it, thats not the case for old gens, we cant just outrigth ban dpp jirachi/adv baton pass/bw latios, but we also can have other solutions because policy is so strict for no reason, just ban iron head/speedpass//spikes or wathever and dont let it become a precedent for current generations where we can just ban pokemon

[@quandaledingle9725]

Watching bkc is like going to therapy

[@Bellicosy]

Forgive my incredulity, I'm just surprised that you decided to cover a topic where latest is also recent/topical; cool.