The Lawson Family Murders | That Chapter Podcast

[@heathergottfried8359]

Keith - "As mad as a bag of spiders". Never heard that one! Love it!

[@allistrata]

I walked through the living room while I was getting ready this morning and said it, husband was both amused and confused.

[@Me_Ewe_and_Yarn_Cheryl]

In Australia we'd say, "mad as a cut snake" 😂

[@karaamundson3964]

Freaky indeed!

[@FLOSSYTREADWELL]

That reminded me of when we had a bearded dragon I used to feed garden spiders back then (oh the cruelty thinking of it). When I raised the vivarium base to clean underneath, there was all these hanging white bags, like little pouches swinging down. They were all full of baby spiders. So - bags of spiders lol. :-)

[@sugarskull8550]

Unrelated creepy kid story. When I was about 11 me and my friend were sleeping outside under the trampoline. The draped a tarp over it so it'd be like a tent, but it was freezing. We (me, her and her 6 year old brother) were wearing full jammies, dressing gown (idk what Americans call them), socks. Full winter gear, and many blankets. We were all shivering but we had our in the effort and were dedicated to our night under the stars. That changed real quick when this sweet innocent little boy starts panicking and saying he wants to sleep inside. We asked why, and were pretty annoyed at that point because we were not giving up on our plan. Then this terrifying child points a chubby little finger out towards the side of the house that was cloaked in shadows and says "because I don't like the way that man is smiling at me". Needless to say we shit bricks and decided that the plan didn't matter any more and high tailed it inside. Shit still haunts me, I remember it so vividly.

[@kevinmeeks5169]

Omg thats wild. When i was 12 me and my mom were living with her boyfriend on the outskirts of town. He had a u shaped drive way and each side had a gate that he would close at night. It was supposed to storm one night so the dogs slept inside. One nudged me awake at night and i heard metal clanging outside. I looked out my room window and saw 2 ppl dressed in black climbing over the gate at the end of the driveway. I ran in my moms room and woke them up. I was telling them and they didn't believe me at first, told me to quit watching scary movies before bed. But after the dogs started barking my stepdad got up and got his gun. My mom called 911 and he held them at gunpoint til the cops got there. They told the cops they had the wrong house but they still went to jail. No telling what the heck they were gonna do but 20 years later it still creeps me out when i think about it.

[@HarryLime-ge6dc]

Nightgowns, love. We call them nightgowns. And that was a truly spooky tale! 🥺

[@davisjames8484]

I had a TBI when i was blown up overseas and i can tell ya that it completely changes your personality and how you react to external stimuli.

[@trezakamel1124]

TBI solidarity ✊❤

[@topherjack2375]

Thank you for your service!!!

[@courtneymason8858]

I heard you smile at “Fanny” 😂

[@IttyBittyKnittyJessa]

I love so much that you have included keith in your success. He was made for the banter 😂❤🎉

[@agostinodublino1387]

maybe he speaks a little too fast and detached sometimes.. or maybe it's me

[@MistyThompson-rz8bi]

Keith, you always do your own research! You always have something to share!

[@ZombieSazza]

“Living his best life, good for him” Probably shouldn’t be laughing anywhere near as hard as I am, the jokes continuing was fantastic, gotta love a bit of spicy humour!

[@spanky12339]

Finally this story!!! I live about 10 miles from this area and went to the gravesite years back. This has been a story I’ve heard about since my childhood!

[@meganh4011]

As a photo nerd, I can tell you that it took minutes for photos to be taken in this era. So usually they would put body wire frames behind the people to help them hold their head straight and it could take 5 to 10 minutes depending on what type of light source was available to expose. That's also why people did not smile.

[@nicholashodges201]

As a photo nerd, you should know by 1928, not only were they using celluloid film, but the photo was taken in seconds, NOT minutes

[@meganh4011]

@@nicholashodges201 true but I doubt that they could have afforded that type of photograph. But thanks for your snotty comeback.

[@nicholashodges201]

@@meganh4011 and thank *you* for proving you don't know what you're talking about. If they "couldn't afford" a photograph taken with their current technology, there's no way in hell they could afford the same with a camera and film that had not been made in about 30 decades. Don't argue out of your @$$, you'll look smarter

[@quickchris10]

There would be several exposures, totaling many minutes the family would have to hold the positions. And I'm pretty sure people were told not to smile? They were trying to look like sober antecedents, gazing down through the ages, like old paintings were. Hobart didn't paint Henry VII smiling, either . . .

[@denisehagwood4542]

​@@nicholashodges201 you don't have friends, i can tell

[@TTOS69]

Hey I'm from North Carolina! Never heard this tale, and I live one county over from Stokes! Thanks for covering something local to me! It feels different! (Btw I live in a house built in 1812 and there's a grave yard here that has stones dating 1776!)

[@kathrynbillinghurst188]

Sounds like a very special 🏡 home…bless you 💖

[@pakde8002]

Also from the tar heel state but I do know about the devil's stomping ground. 😈

[@genevieves.1904]

NC too! Mebane

[@frankyzomboy1694]

My name is Mike too and I actually went to West Stokes in Stokes County❤

[@chrisstewart7539]

Winston-salem here. Never heard about this either.

[@emard79]

I need this! Terrible news received on my birthday and too stuck in my head. 2am here and looking forward to a story as distraction. Love you!

[@janeliz5690]

I hope you get to a space of calmness - meanwhile enjoy the distraction

[@AliValentine143]

Happy Birthday 🎉 I hope issues pass by quickly.

[@SugarandSarcasm]

Things will get better ❤️‍🩹

[@chrisallen6714]

Hugs!!!

[@CorgiFrizz]

Happy belated Birthday. Hope things are looking better.

[@sarahgooding7785]

Yaaaay -morning off,Mike and Keith what could be better?😊

[@MichaelSmith-sv6vd]

Loving the banter between you both❤ thank you to both of you for these interesting stories ❤

[@AnonymousUser_1111]

Long time listener, first time commenter. As a Winston-Salem native, this is practically in my backyard. There has always been such a whirl of interest around this case. While the location is in the 'sticks', it is fairly close to Winston-Salem, which is a larger city. Winston-Salem had a particularly great newspaper service during this time as it had to keep up the Reynolds and Hanes, and the NC Vanderbilt familes, who were frequently in the national news. This is the reason this story circulated faster than normal for that time period. Great job!

[@michelleholmes7582]

I live in Germanton. We go to Winston all the time to do our shopping, since Germanton is so rural. I do love living in a very, very small town, but being less than 15 minutes from shopping.

[@merrijeanbrown5030]

Another great story to start the week thanks Mike and Keith ❤❤❤

[@dakotabarnes6069]

Nothing makes me more happy than to see a notification from That chapter but also Keith and you are such a great duo love the content keep up that great work❤

[@pieceoftoast8934]

❤ So glad y’all are doing this together. I love the chemistry between you both 🥰

[@nbsoboleski]

Glad you covered this!!! "Weird Darkness" does a stellar job covering this case in even greater depth, and that's how I was introduced to it, a year ago. Lol, I love you guys, but I like to give shout-outs and reccs for "further study." So, check out Weird Darkness cover the Lawsons to go even more in detail. 😀

[@alexsmith-gn4tp]

I love it when Keith is there, Mike plus Keith is double the pleasure ❤

[@ritam8712]

Ah perfect for my 3am insomnia 😊

[@terribongers2465]

Terrible storm and flooding here Thanks for taking my mind off it

[@maquinadeguera]

Thanks for the awesome start to this Monday mornings ! Salute 🫡 from Brooklyn!

[@jentill1034]

You guys are crazy fun and I love it!! Thanks for making Monday's worth while! 🥰♥

[@buggiebuild1]

Listening to all the episodes again over the weekend & I miss the B4 Keith time,in other words,Love Keith & the banter/research💯 U guys have a VERY SPECIAL RECIPE 🤩🤩✌🏻💞

[@nilesredfern7989]

Not even 4 minutes in and I'm belly-laughing. I just love y'all, thank you for doing this. 🤣💓

[@guardmommad5084]

Thanks lads! Love ya!❤

[@staciewhitley948]

I grew up about 15 minutes from Germanton and remember growing up with the story, probably because the book came out when I was young. Maybe it was the sensationalism, but I always remember hearing it was due to the incestuous relationship. For a while, it was almost a right of passage that when you got your license, teens would drive to the farm land and try to see how haunted it was.

[@kristicolaw]

"...a before and after." That's the best

[@JENNIFERH-b4r]

That was my favourite too! I was alone when I was listening and when I heard that I started laughing like the village idiot!

[@FLOSSYTREADWELL]

Love these beautiful accents, I could listen all day....

[@marymullings3823]

OMG,you two kill me. Love your podcasts. Thanks a lot because we love ya😊😊😊

[@pakde8002]

Here for the tangents and not disappointed 😅

[@jujubeane8334]

Hooray! A new episode.

[@sleepdeprivedjuicebox]

love your energy and how you cover theese stories together ✨🌕🤘🏻

[@alanleemaxwell831]

This one always intrigued and horrified me in equal measures. And it happened on my birthday...🙏🇬🇧❤️

[@SugarandSarcasm]

Happy birthday 🎂

[@Channell_55]

Mike and Keith are the Best Partners in Crime! I Love the Podcast!! 🇨🇦🥰🇮🇪

[@domista123]

That chapter just becoming ridiculously based for this episode 🤣🤣🤣

[@conorgibson7301]

I play this tune on the banjo!

[@BLARG09]

These things so often happen at Christmas.

[@MelissaThompson432]

CW gross story: . . . . .Somewhere in the Conrad Richter trilogy, _The Awakening Land,_ one of the children in a frontier family looks up at the window and points, shouting, "look at the little black child!" A few days later, the child falls in the fire under the outdoor wash pot (for laundry) and dies. It's fiction, but it feels like it was based on a real sighting: the girl predicted her own death. The scene in the book was far more detailed, but I can only handle so much.

[@carrieeawbrey2830]

Creepy! My name is Carriee Leigh. Truly a tragic case. Thanks for bringing it to light. Always good to give it a goo w Mike & Keith. Much ♥️& all the best all!

[@gabriellacortez4148]

I’m a surgical technician & a premed student and my favorite service is neurosurgery and that’s what I’m studying.. but the entire time I was listening to the episode I was visualizing his brain. My most memorable surgery was of a 8 year old boy who got hit by his parents and it was so crazy. Children’s brains tho can re-wire much faster than adults, some walking and speaking months after having chunks removed :). Also It makes me so nervous when I’m at work but I wanna go home, I’m tired of standing, ect.. usually people say the phrase “ it’s not brain surgery”.. but, it literally is 😂. And here we are Mike, listening to your podcast 😂 and have been. LOVE THAT CHAPTER ! ❤34:15

[@abbycross90210]

"Mad as a bag of spiders" is my new favorite thing.

[@MistyThompson-rz8bi]

My daughter would not brush her teeth without me after watching It!

[@jasonrussell9906]

The FAMILY PORTRAIT makes perfect sense IF the Lawson's didn't have one yet of ALL the family!!! He wanted to IMMORTALIZE his family...

[@donniejunk2860]

Over a couple of decades ago I received a massive head wound My attitude and behavior drastically changed for almost a decade only in hindsight was my behavior so radical and strange.

[@dumpsterfire003]

Ohhh shit! Good ol NC! The smaller rural communities have crimes like this happen all the time. We just get swept under the rug a lot! Especially compared to our bigger cities like Charlotte, Ashboro, Raleigh, Wilmington etc.

[@dumpsterfire003]

Also yes presumably unless they knew someone or had their own camera, doubtful, it was an expensive, long, draining process and with kids? Nope. So nowadays it’s a very telling and sad sign tbh

[@Rachel-in4hd]

I'm like an hour away from where this happened. My friend is a relative of the family.

[@vikingprincess]

Of course Brenna is listening. I'm listening.

[@SugarandSarcasm]

No fair, IG gets Keith photos. The little tidbits are great, keep it up! 😊 That con woman in the beginning was intriguing (maybe good as a YT short, if you have the need to do those)

[@mothiestman4995]

That photo is normal for old family photos, yeah. Took ages to take a photo, so few bothered to hold a fake smile that long. Some even considered it rude for a very long time. However, smiling in pictures was becoming more normal back then. But they probably just had a very old camera, based on the Victorian-esque effect on the eyes. That's where the myth of "corpse photography" comes from. Babies and small children are especially suseptible, so I'm honestly surprised by how normal these kiddos look.

[@enGINeeringChic]

The discussion about TBI/ Concussions and Brain Surgeons, made me think of that movie "Concussion" with Will Smith. He played an actual real-life Brain Surgeon from Nigeria, Dr. Omalu. Supposedly, this Dr. was one of the first medical professionals to recognize that people that participated in "violent" sports (football, wrestling, racing, etc) had a specific pattern of brain damage. Because of almost constant knocks to the head and concussions The brains of these guys were smaller than normal, bruised and literally damaged. Kinda interesting. Dr. Omalu even got the entire NFL to change the padding in the football helmets to better protect the head and Brain.

[@SugarandSarcasm]

That could explain why Charles' brain was smaller

[@lisasteel6817]

It was 6:30 pm in good ‘ol Oz.

[@JENNIFERH-b4r]

11:00 AM in Nova Scotia

[@TimParker-Chambers]

36:50 I remember when I was about 5-6, someone pulled the head off one of my friends He-Man, and threw it onto the school roof... 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ (Yes, he screamed like a beach as it flew upwards... 🤭🤭🤭🤭🤣🤣🤣🤣)

[@MikeJones-yo8en]

My goddaughter was fascinated with Pennywise too. One time when she was 4 years old, we were walking in the park and she ran up to a culvert and looked inside and asked “Is Pennywise in there?” She was even Pennywise for Halloween one year lol

[@karaamundson3964]

😮 ew!

[@NotJessH]

24:00 ish my daughter (6) talks to my dad who passed away 5 months ago. She’s only seen him twice and the last time she was about a year old so I doubt she has real memories of him. We live far apart so didn’t get to visit much in the past 5 years plus the whole pandemic made visiting impossible. We did FaceTime on occasion but my dad was hard of hearing so they were short and sweet. I have a portion of his ashes, I haven’t decided where to scatter them yet. Kids say freaky things. She also obsessively talks about the fictional character sirenhead, so there’s that.

[@livingdeadgirl888]

❤😂

[@jessicasmith6873]

My dad hit himself in the head with an axe when I was a teen. He was chopping wood, and the axe caught on the clothesline and slid down it, and hit him in the side of the head. He went down but didn't lose consciousness, I dont think. I ran across the street to where my grandma lived rather than running outside to check on him.

[@TimParker-Chambers]

27:14 Don't forget though, memento mori was a big thing back in that era, and people would do things like keeping a lock of a loved one's hair (I also vaguely remember hearing something about a type of bracelet which was popular at the time, which I seem to remember being more like a wrist-worn locket, and I think made from a bIack substance, perhaps bakelite or cellulose...) Memento mori seems creepy AF to us, but back then, it really was 'the done thing' and quite widespread 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@ABNMPmama]

Heeeeeeelloooooo, Mike and Keith! So, here I am… Random fly-on-wall, secretly listening to two besties having a conversation. One where I cannot stop listening, and I’m not shy about being in your business, at this point. I know too much. Same time, next week? Damn straight. I need tea time with my new besties! ❤😂

[@taylork1567]

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) is likely caused by repeated head injuries. It causes the brain cells to break down. It is seen a lot in football players. The only way to diagnose is with an autopsy. Look it up. Very interesting stuff.

[@ForeverAlansGirl]

You are correct. Interestingly enough, former wwe wrestler Chris Nowinski is head of CTE reascherch & he's the one who asked Chris Benois dad for permission to study Chris's brain. Also very common in NHL hockey players..most known case was Robert Probert.

[@Nylak-Otter]

Hey guys, I have had multiple TBIs throughout my life to the point that the accumulated damage is medically and psychologically significant, and my brain actually looks just fine on basically all the scans they can put my skull through. The only noticeable differences are multiple healed skull fractures and a small area in the gray matter that is less vascularized than the rest, the latter of which could be unrelated. Guess we won't know unless someone takes a scalpel to me, and since I plan to go preferably without an autopsy (definitely no embalming), we may never know what it superficially looks like in there. But yes, it did "shorten my fuse" quite a bit, but it actually made me a more peaceful person due to the way I chose to respond to it.

[@woodworkingandepoxy643]

I remember plenty of conversations as young as 4. Its not impossible for her to remember that

[@crystalchurch1810]

only almost 2 minutes in and that chicka sounds like a crazy ass bawler/brawler!!! so funny how some of us are wired ;)

[@michelleholmes7582]

I'm late to this one. I live in the very rural town of Germanton, NC, where this happened (population about 800). We don't even have a stop light here 😊. Brook Cove Rd, where the farm is, is right down the road from me. The Lawson case is the most famous murder case in this area.

[@bearynice4784]

when people took family pictures back when pictures were new they did in fact use to take pictures with a deceased loved one as if they were alive...like I wouldn't be shocked if at least one person in it was not alive...

[@elisaseverns2543]

All those old pictures look creepy. My mom said photos in those days were a serious thing.

[@Dee-JayW]

this is great for my 3:30am insomnia 😂

[@karaamundson3964]

Funeral photos...taken after death and propped up in lifelike poses. Creepy after, but common, after all

[@kellietaylor9913]

I still can't believe that your video today was on Rochester New York

[@GeorgeMoore55]

Hi Kellie🌹🌹 How are you doing?

[@BlackJackZeroXtreme]

Did not expect Lawson and Chris Benoit to be mentioned in the same podcast but here we are, Good episode though!

[@billwoehl3051]

Brain injuries and recovery very as much as the patients do..a small injury can have huge permanent effects, yet, a man who had half his brain knocked off by a bear ended up keeping all his functions and if memory serves me right, even his personality.

[@bec7080]

I don't think that Benoits actions should be excused completely but i do think that we should consider his brain injuries in his actions and in how we remember his final action vs his lifetime

[@Terry-n7m]

What happened to the oldest boy who was hunting rabbits when his dad killed the rest of the family?

[@SpokenTruthPoetry]

Update to the craziness of the story: I think youre right about the portrait being haunted Mike. Because in 1944 James Arthur "Buck" Lawson (The last one left) was killed at the age of 33 in a truck crash. Sounds like a haunted portrait to me.

[@onthebrink1119]

You guys always sound like a cute gay couple flirting lol cute

[@anonymouse867]

It's 7:00am where I am listening to this right now. Charles having a small brain is interesting, airways right it was more of the smooth brains that got up to stupid shite. Perhaps with the purchase of the farm they wereY struggling to stay afloat or nearing a financial burden which is common reason for men to go all family annihilator. Not to mention possible grief over the passing of their 6 year old son. I'd imagine if Charles saw no other way to carry on, than to delete himself, he might have also seen taking the lives of his wife and the children, who could not earn a living, as the merciful thing to do. It's macabre, but I don't know how Fanny would've coped with the death of 8 children or how she would've faired with the financial responsibility of 9 children without Charles. It's all very grim and I'm sure Charles was going back and forth with himself about all of it. The youngest children would have had little to no memory of what he even looked like after he was gone so maybe at the time of the picture, he'd only thought of deleting himself and wanted his family to have a photo to remember him by.

[@noraa1991]

If you’re ever curious why the wwf changed to the wwe it was because it drew traffic away from the World Wildlife Fund webpage and people wanted to donate, so definitely understandable

[@karaamundson3964]

1:42 at the end of the podcast in Halsey, OR!🎉

[@Valchrist1313]

8:24 yeah, the early 1900s just went swimmingly for men, what with being drafted and sent to die by the tens of millions.

[@Szyq003]

Yes, your right, the picture does not look normal.

[@ponderouspathfinder2175]

You’re 8 hours ahead of me on the West Coast of the US.

[@DiZoSoMom]

I went down a rabbit hole wondering why Charles would kill the older ones with a gunshot, then bludgeon the smaller ones. I had assumed originally that maybe his gun was a black powder rifle, which maybe got wet and therefore was hard to prime or use. I missed the date originally; by the First World War, most guns were standard rifles with standard rounds, so that seems unlikely. It may be that he simply ran out of ammo, hence his son being on a trip to buy more. I don’t know why my brain got stuck, curiously, on this detail, but I think deep down I just wondered not just why and how someone could do this, but why shift MO in the middle of the crime and make it even more brutal for the youngest ones? It’s just heartbreaking all the way around… the analytical part of me just wants badly to try and make even a little tidbit of it make sense.

[@misscyanic2484]

At the time Chris Benoit died, the co was already known as WWE

[@cannibalcupcake2.0]

Random side note: Adam Lanza’s brain was kept for study.

[@loretta_3843]

My father was born in 1933, grew up in a share cropping situation when he was a small child (WWII Italy). There ended up being 7 children in his family, although I don't know if the last 2 came post war, don't think so, for people in those sorts of circumstances, you didn't have a photo of anyone/thing, let alone spending what little you had on a photo at a photographer's "studio". You had much more pressing things to worry about. I know of 1 photo of my father during his pre-teen (5 to 7?) period, but it was more of a village thing rather than his family. Enough of my boring view into early 20th century poverty and photography with a family that had some strange parallels with these people. Thankfully, my grandfather was apparently great company (also not into killing, you know, people).

[@GeorgeMoore55]

Hi

[@loretta_3843]

@@GeorgeMoore55 👋

[@GeorgeMoore55]

@@loretta_3843 nice getting some feedback from you! Where are you from?

[@chasitygarcia3118]

" Big fan" 😂#sweetfekall made this hastag becouse i fekking love when Mike says it!!😂🎉

[@BunkerFox]

Mike acting surprised that it wasn't a painted portrait and the way he talks about sitting for ages for a picture makes it sound like these killing took place in the 1800's. This happened in 1929; Cameras and movies had existed for quite a while by then. What's next, saying that they still used leeches in the 1950's? But anyway, aside from that great episode! Never heard of this before and you covered it very well

[@misscyanic2484]

The maka- bree idea to show the house in It's disheveled state - w the cake! - is exactly what the public wanted 😂😂

[@JenniferLane-lm8xv]

I work very close to where this happened

[@krystalnice]

Mike, since you asked, it’s 2:42 am

[@AliValentine143]

Mr. Lawson's head does somewhat resemble microcephay, when looking at the son's head even when compared with the wife. I would wonder how he faired as well as he did up until then tho, but a type of brain injury or mental health could explain the horrendous acts better microcephaly.

[@tysmom76]

Ohhh ohhh can you do a podcast about the first Amish murderer? Now thats a horrific story

[@positivedisintegration]

idk what Keith looks like but he SOUNDS dreamy.

[@brittneyzarwel6242]

I think I heard someplace that people back then didn't smile for photographs. There's a reason. I think it's bc of the time it took to take the photo. So they just sat very still or it would be blurry.

[@BLARG09]

It's harder to hold a smile for that period of time

[@evebeaumont]

I wanted a professional photo of my family, it was a traumatic experience at the photographer studio, my children played up and after many threats of whispered warnings the deed was done and I was the only one smiling (forced). The poor photographer looked to be on the edge himself. If the same situation happened to the Lawson's, I'm sure Mr Lawson carried out his threats when they returned home, I know exactly how he felt.

[@vavito2302]

I think the pic was a present to his son knowing he couldn’t kill him, he would at least have something to remember them by

[@OWLsRoost]

Nice early a.m. treat!

[@kennykaniff]

Could somebody please tell me the difference between a YT channel and a podcast? I was under the impression that a podcast had no visuals. I thought a podcast was just for listening to and no need to watch it

[@formerleewarmer4336]

Hey ya😊

[@kushfairyny1]

Sometimes in photos in that time period some of the family members would be actually unalive. Isually babies bit its been adults as well. They would do it right after the death of the family memeber as 1 last family photograph with them.

[@auroramori-hunter4510]

Sad and creepy story. What ever happened to the son? Just curious.