The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of the Past

[@KingKlonoa]

Pre-order the Outer Wilds - Design Works book using my code KINGK to get 5% off bit.ly/KingKOW​

[@kingintox5743]

18:27 The temple stuck with KingK so much, he had to let us know twice

[@KingKlonoa]

I actually do not know how I missed this. I combed over this video like twenty times, I guess at a certain point the words all blended together.

[@anon4305]

@@KingKlonoa Please keep it, it's great lol

[@kingintox5743]

As much as I’m not a KZbinr, I can absolutely relate to this. Definitely not a video ruining mistake though, I just found it quite funny! Always love your retrospective/review videos

[@jameslawrenson1208]

It's easily the best dungeon in the game!

[@1calv]

I legitimately thought it was on purpose to emphasize the point.

[@ACriticalRetrospective]

The fact that we finally have another Zelda game where the villain is someone other than Ganon is enough for me.

[@TrashQueenAndKing]

Bro has not played the Oracle games or the Minish Cap.

[@TrashQueenAndKing]

Yeah I know you fight Ganon in a linked version of the Oracle games, but on their own, the villain is original.

[@ACriticalRetrospective]

@@TrashQueenAndKing Apologies for not being clear enough. 😅 I meant in the more recent games. (BOTW and TOTK)

[@malikpierre-louis3343]

@ACriticalRetrospective I didn't know you were a zelda fan

[@Bighomie39]

​@TrashQueenAndKing they said "another". Also, this is the sad reminder that the GameBoy era of Zelda (LA-Minish Cap) is like 2 decades ago, although the last Zelda game to not feature Ganon were the DS duo that are over a decade old themselves. Come to think of it, the only 2D Zelda to come out after the 2D games became side attractions that has Ganon as the final boss is ALBW.

[@isetmfriendsofire]

16:02 "This is the most 2D Zelda has ever had" Zelda 2: Am I a joke to you?

[@KingKlonoa]

You got me there, but also that's kinda cheating.

[@MrPhats-qb2dy]

​@@KingKlonoa Speaking of which, do you think you'll ever cover Zelda 1 and/or 2 at some point? I'd love to hear your thoughts on them!

[@Owen133]

"Not something I love because it's too familiar and doesn't commit fully to its ideas but it's neat and I look forward to what they do next." An unexpected take from you my good sir but one I highly respect all the same.

[@NintendoCapriSun]

"You know what LTTP has that this game doesn't?" I seriously am ashamed I failed to answer the question before you did. I love this game so far and can't wait to see what people do with it. But I also would have loved a day/night cycle.

[@CagedInSilence]

17:20 - Faron Temple is exactly the kind of temple TotK needed to adopt. I think weaving in and out of the temple from the overworld would fit well with BotW/TotK open air design. That was my biggest wish list item for TotK, so I'm glad to see them revisit this idea. You may recall a LttP and LA both utilized this temple gimmick to a lesser degree.

[@thewolfgabe3656]

I generally dont fault Grezzo for playing it a tad safe considering this is the first proper mainline Zelda title with Zelda as the main protagonist. I think the real highlight of the game is the various mini character arcs you encounter in each region.

[@saber7534]

On one hand it's neat on the other hand the writing is so cut and dry. I don't know if I should respect or hate TOTK/EOW character arcs because they are trying to do something, but these don't feel like character progression and feel more like checkmarks

[@MochaRitz]

@@saber7534 Everything feels very flat. To add to your checkmark statement, that's how a lot of the caves and collectibles feel, because honestly there is like zero punishment for death anyway, so when all your rewards just feed back into greater health or making healing smoothies, then the rewards in general just feel like checkmarks instead of anything meaningful. Echoes should have been in chests, that would've let them tease enemies that you don't get until later on, and would've improved the feel tenfold.

[@obviouslyPSM]

Agreed. I also like how there was (an albeit sometimes clunky) attempt at mixing open world with linear story telling. Take this model, expand it, and implement it into a main line 3-D game where we play as both Zelda and link and now we’re cooking

[@samuelstephens6904]

@@MochaRitz I think it’s better the way the game did it, getting echoes from encountering the object in the world. That way you can see, interact with, and understand it first before adding it to your menagerie of echoes. It’s a good incentive to fighting tough enemies too. The game is also still quiet open and non-linear compared to other top-down Zeldas. It would be weird to get a random echo in chest long before encountering the enemy version of it in a different location.

[@MochaRitz]

@@samuelstephens6904 I'm moreso suggesting that echoes be treated like items in traditional dungeons. In fact, I'd have enemies in the game you can't echo, so that you are often in situations where you are forced to be outclassed by the enemies you fight.

[@scottshanbom]

I played through the entire game without knowing that you could abuse Crawltulas and I’m glad I did, because I think not gaving that tool to abuse created a need for more creative problem solving

[@adrianpadin1840]

I think in general, this game gives the player too much freedom in how to approach problems. It makes it way too tempting to trivialize any challenge put in front of you, which robs the player of the reward of solving the problem in a creative way, instead of just spamming water blocks and beds to skip over it.

[@JP2427]

10:36 I think this encapsulates my feelings on the game as a whole pretty well. There's so many cool ideas here but I dont feel like they're explored enough or are easily circumvented with stuff like the swordfighter form. I still enjoyed the game, but I think they could have gone a little harder into the core premise to make Zelda's first game meaningfully standout more from Link's games

[@Hyperdahedgehog]

I really do enjoy how everyone plays this game differently. I often used the ultrahand momentum thing to drop enemies off the side and drag flying enemies into water. Where as i never even considered using the flying tiles like that. I crawled along the ceiling with waterblocks and grabbed birds to glide. And for combat I couldn't drop or drown I used the spinning chain ball enemy and used the grab to move it around me. Grab was my primary mechanic for the game and it's cool that others did the game completely different from me.

[@shirrenthewanderer414]

I don't think swordfighter mode hurts the game. It's just another way to play for me but I generally only use it when I'm "Supposed" to (i.e. bosses and dark monsters). I can just use some echoes to support me when before I go into swordfighter mode so I can be a SMT protagonist with my demon horde.

[@popskar]

I feel like I'm watching this video at least 3 years earlier than I was meant to and I'm here for it.

[@midgetman955]

Real

[@sabletooth]

I think that, given that this is Grezzo's first attempt at their own unique spin on a Zelda game rather than remaking something, it is incredibly promising. Obviously some elements were done specifically to not lean out the window too far (stuff like the Link form, or the callback to this game's map being laid over LTTP's), but I think they did something really cool with this game, and if THIS game, which has its flaws and plays it a bit safe, but I still really ended up enjoying, is an indicator? I think we're in for some great 2D Zelda games coming out of Grezzo in the future.

[@TheUltimaOblivion]

To me, Echoes of Wisdom felt like returning home. What a comfortable time I had while 100%ing the game, specially after being disappointed in BotW and TotK and how Aonuma's vision for the series is that Zelda needs to be open world from now on.

[@AngeVNs]

Im so done with open world gaming

[@adrianpadin1840]

I wouldn't describe 100%-ing the game as "comfortable" when those horse race challenges and dream fights exist

[@TheUltimaOblivion]

@@adrianpadin1840 Well I had a good time unlike in botw and totk, that was my point.

[@christianj5950]

The blend of old and new worked for me, and I especially liked how the linearity allowed the difficulty to really crank up for later dungeons, but I respect your take as well. As always, your videos are well-made and I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.

[@Ternalin]

You really do have the best voice to sleep to. Your videos always help sooth my anxiety and drift me off to sleep. Your voice got me through the Covid pandemic. Sorry if that sounds weird but its just really soothing.

[@AthrunTalan]

16:07 by this point in time I had the Bombfish as well so essentially still relied on that echo. Why waste energy in Swordfighter form when I've got an echo I can summon to do the same job and can save the energy for a boss instead?

[@ajbXYZcool]

How can you not remember Conde's name? Out of anyone you should remember Conde's name.

[@RPG_Hacker]

My take on Echoes of Wisdom right after completing it was: "This was definitely quite the flawed game - but damn, if it wasn't the most fun, flawed game I've played in a while". Like, there's no doubt in my mind, the game design of Echoes is incredibly flawed. It demonstrates just how problematic Nintendo's design philosophy of "maximum player freedom" can get when not done carefully. Echoes of Wisdom is absolutely full of ideas that are great in isolation - but fall apart completely when constrasted against one another. For every single problem, there's at least five different solutions, but it doesn't matter, because there's always one that's clearly superior. Usually, it isn't difficult to find that one, and once you do, there's no reason to use any of the other solutions ever again. Like, once you find the strongest combat echo in the game, there's literally no reason to ever use any other one. The game is full of these design elements that I refer to as "'just why' design". For example: Why are there a billion different smoothies in the game, when only like 5% of them are really useful? I'm never gonna use smoothies that only boost one of my unimportant stats for five minutes, and even for less experienced players, I kinda have my doubts they will. I'm also not surprised you didn't even once mention the machine thingies in your review, because lol, why do these even exist? They're such a pointless addition to the game, and yet so many rewards revolve around them. And yet all of that being said... man, Echoes of Wisdom was still some of the most fun I've had with a Zelda game in ages. I actually appreciated the game trying to take sort of a middle ground between classic Zelda and modern Zelda, with the gameplay systems and overworld providing some more freedom, while the dungeons and overall story were a bit more linear. The story in particular was the most interesting Zelda story in a while for me (neither Breath of the Wild, nor Tears of the Kingdom managed to really get me caring about their stories, due to the way these games opted to tell them). I also definitely enjoyed the dungeons more than BotW's and TotK's (albeit not as much as the dungeons in earlier Zelda games). The nostalgic elements in the game didn't bother me at all. While I did recognize the world was heavily based on A Link to the Past's, I didn't perceive it as just a copy or anything. I think it felt quite different, and if anything, I think reusing an old game world and changing it up this much is more interesting than doing what A Link Between Worlds and Tears of the Kingdom did, where large parts of the world were almost unchanged. Despite how flawed the echoes were in the game (especially in the UI department), I also greatly enjoyed using those whenever they worked well. I do kinda see the echoes as a replacement for classic Zelda items, except there's now hundreds of them and there's more that are redundant. While that does make them less impactful than classic Zelda items, I think it's also still more fun than what BotW and TotK did with giving you almost all items right away. I just need that little sense of progression in Zelda games. I guess at the end of the day, my personal standpoint is this: While I clearly prefer the old, linear Zelda design over the new, open Zelda design, if Nintendo is truely set on never returning to linear Zelda design again, then at least this middle ground is something I can live with and enjoy. I really don't think I'll ever be in the mood for another BotW/TotK-styled game again (as much as I enjoyed those), but I'm convinced I'll totally be in the mood for another Echoes-styled game again if Nintendo ever decides to make one. Definitely looking forward to see what modders are gonna do with Echoes of Wisdom. As I mentioned, I think its mechanics in isolation are great, and I could see someone turning it into something truely amazing just by designing some more restricted challenges. Or, heck, a rogue-like. The echo system would work amazingly in that!

[@RainDot]

Echoes of Wisdom felt like a game meant to bridge the rift between traditional Zelda fans and open-air Zelda fans. For me, it did something I expected TOTK to do, and was disappointed when it didn't, it combined BOTW open-handedness with somewhat more linear structures with the return of traditional dungeons. On the whole, for a first attempt at merging the two, I think it somewhat succeeded. The structure and dungeons are more traditional, but you can solve puzzles in multiple solutions and even break the game in some instances, which is what BOTW was all about. I do wish Dungeons were... harder, more complex, and longer, but it's also been a decade since we last had proper dungeons, so I'm willing to overlook that for now. I hope the next big 3D Zelda game will be what I hoped TOTK would be before release and what Echoes of Wisdom attempted to me, a successful blend of the two that could satisfy everyone.

[@AnthonyDGreen]

Yeah. I was really disappointed by TotK in the end, though I recognize it as mechanically an impressive technical achievement and full of content. But I really hoped and eventually after that last trailer believed that it was going to achieve a better blend of old and new than it did. And I was harshly critical if it for that because I thought it would be 5+ years before I got that. Echoes actually delivered roughly the balance I wanted. Now with the benefit of 70 hours of Echoes, I understand my feelings on Tears better and am generally more accepting and optimistic about all of the titles and the franchise as a whole.

[@Lexi-M]

Very well put!

[@midgetman955]

I feel like ALBW did an excellent job at bridging that gap and its one of my favorite zeldas the dungeons are amazing though yeah difficulty wise its not that hard

[@djmarkiez]

I agree somewhat but i think the idea of botw totk is the absolute freedom to play your way, and botw was made with new developers at the steeringwheel to try to reinvent the open world zelda formula and not reusing ideas from Skyward Sword So expecting an linear dungeon in a open ended game feels wrong. It is possible that the next 3d game uses the benefits they learn from eow.

[@hylianro]

​@@midgetman955not that hard? Play hero mode without sword/armor upgrades and you'll want to pull some hair out 😂

[@crimsonbrass5164]

Echoes of Wisdom feels like Grezzo's "Samus Returns". A game I really enjoyed, with a blend of old themes and new ideas that have noticeable room for improvement. Let's hope we get their "Metroid Dread" moment.

[@vacalocacornejo5971]

I can't believe it. You basically mentioned every thought i had for the game and evry opinion. Masterpiece man. Keep it up

[@rex_yaldabaoth]

See, at least for me, as someone who has gotten so sick of open worlds, and really did not care for the dungeon design in botw or totk, I was just so glad to have a game that felt like it was made for me again. Yeah, the puzzles weren't the most complex ever, I can't think of anything that truly stumped me, but also i've gotten better at games over the years. But I just loved the creativity and freedom possible, the number of different approaches you could take with echoes. It gave me the feeling people seem to get out of the most recent 3d games, which those don't give me by being *too* freeform for my tastes. I need more structure, but not so much that it becomes 1 linear corridor. I'm also less bothered by the repetition and familiarity because lttp's world is one I have no attachment to, and while I can recognise it's approximate structure, the differences in the details are what really mattered to me.

[@Watch-Yisus]

18:27 Thank you for making me feel less bad about the errors on my videos.

[@XakTerrible]

I'm so happy you've reviewed this game. I absolutely loved it. I got so caught up in figuring out how to defeat enemies and bosses with my echoes that I often forgot about switching to the Link form to take them out. I preferred it that way, honestly.

[@GIRGHGH]

I'm pretty sure that was very intentional by the developers. It's something you can use to shake things up if you need it, not the main way the game is meant to be played. Idk why he said the echoes were the side flavor of the game.

[@zShynux]

@@GIRGHGH yeah I feel like he played the game in a completely different way in general, I really didnt resonate with a lot of his experiences at all

[@Smexbi]

As someone who loves "mancer" classes, the echoes worked so well for me. I often forgot that I could turn into Link. I would end boss battles with the thought "oh, forgot to turn into Link for more damage". It's just so much fun using all these different echoes & play around with enemies.

[@TheWonderful-101]

I share your sentiment on future Zelda games, ToTK placated essentially every single desire I wanted from this franchise and adventure games as a whole; I see a lot of potential in Grezzo considering the DS Zelda duology got off on a good - but very similar - foot to Echoes of Wisdom! Later, the less acclaimed but much better in my eyes, Spirit Tracks positively stole my heart. We're truly spoiled when it comes to this IP. The real unsung 2D Zelda of this era is Cadence of Hyrule. It even stars Zelda.. optionally.. but it's the real deal, bundled with a very competent arcade Necrodancer mode, too.

[@Dionaea_floridensis]

Fundamentally disagree with your assessment of the sword fighter form. I saw it as a way to dish out DPS the Echoes couldn't, and in a sense it felt like Link was always with me, which was cool and comforting

[@taffyratvideos6449]

For me, the sword fighter form was exclusively for doing damage to stunned bosses, or a panic move. It's always wild to me that people used it in other scenarios

[@Dionaea_floridensis]

@taffyratvideos6449 after I got the frog ring I never used it as a jump boost again

[@marche800]

I used it in tandem with the echoes to maximize DPS or create openings that aren't always there when fighting alone. It was my way of joining my tropps when I could no longer meaningfully impact their efficiency

[@Zanador]

That sounds like you completely agree about its purpose, but you just like it and he doesn't. He said that it felt like Link was always there, which he thought undermined the point of being Zelda. And he said it was higher DPS which undermined the point of using Echos in battle.

[@Dionaea_floridensis]

@@Zanador yeah I just think he's wrong. I fail to see how it's problematic at all. Whinging about nothing

[@SkyBlueFox1]

Odd as it might sound? I really appreciate that you regard Link's Awakening's story for its *simplicity*, rather than its "depth". If there's one wrinkle of Zelda that's consistently overlooked (particularly by 'lore aficionados'), it's the fact that Zelda narratives have almost never actually been That Deep. LA doesn't actually spend time exploring the existentialism in a meaningful way - what it *does* do is let you get attached to the world, before dropping a plot-twist on you, and then taking that world away at the end. Back when I was 6 and bought the game as my very first Zelda, I never even picked up on the plot-twist, and so I was extra-traumatized by watching it all disappear. Ocarina of Time is similar. Sheik only ever drops two or three lines of existential dialogue for each temple and that's it; they never get directly and explicitly explored. Neither do the characters, for that matter; Saria and Impa even show up in-person in the future 'til the end of their dungeons, and Darunia and Ruto only get one on-screen appearance before getting Sage'd. The depth of OoT's storytelling doesn't come from the game, it comes from how the player interprets and gets attached to the game. In essence, Zelda narratives serve the same purpose as Link himself: they're only ever as deep as you want them to be. (This is also why TP and SS's pacing issues are so divisive - they put waaay more effort into trying to tell in-game narratives that are, at best, only-slightly deeper than the other in-game narratives. If those games spent less time on that stuff, those folks wouldn't get worn out so easily, and would probably be more attached to the game/narrative as a result.) And keep in mind, Player-Assigned Depth is not a bad thing! It's a normal thing that happens across all mediums; I mean, it's arguably one of the biggest goals of art in general. It's why artistic debate can be so fulfilling or eye-opening! It's just important for people to recognize how much of that depth is sourced not from the developers themselves, but from their own individual experiences. Just because a game isn't as deep as you think/remember doesn't mean your own interpretation is invalid - it just means it's personal to you.

[@aliceyuri]

Was kinda expecting you to come after MM on this subject cos that's definitely the zelda game called "deep" the most often

[@SkyBlueFox1]

@@aliceyuri Honestly, MM is one of the few Zeldas that I *would* argue has some nice depth - but it's entirely because the game runs on such a unique structure. The three-day cycle meant the devs had to give most characters a routine to follow, and they could add little events or story-beats accordingly. Not all NPCs are created equal, but even the simple stuff can be pretty effective - and the characters that do get more attention have some really great moments. The conversation between Anju and her mother, about Kafei's disappearance and whether or not to flee the town, is some genuinely heavy stuff. Most importantly, though, is that all that side-content is optional: it's up to the player whether or not they want to invest their time into it. Being able to choose adds that sense of discovery and empowerment, and it makes those story-beats a lot more engaging than they would be otherwise. On the other hand, the three-day cycle is also one of MM's biggest potential dealbreakers. The fact that it plays so differently from other entries can put some people off, not to mention how it makes the game pretty newbie-unfriendly. MM's structure enables it to have deeper-than-usual story content, but it also comes at a certain cost to its gameplay. That's the real balancing-act. (For comparison, think of Twilight Princess' early-game setpieces; rescuing the village kid from the Bulblins on horseback, or the Zora Prince escort mission. You have to do those setpieces to progress the story, but they don't connect to the main narrative super-duper well, so it feels like you're getting sidetracked. If they were actual sidequests, not only would it be your choice to get sidetracked or not, but the game would have more room to flesh their respective characters out.)

[@aliceyuri]

@@SkyBlueFox1 yea this all makes sense, i was just expecting a diatribe about majora the second i saw the mention of zelda being deep or not, its newbie unfriendly but i think thats fine tbh cos how many people are gonna have majora be their first zelda anyway? gives it a unique formula to get to grips with too, the way majora is largely made up of side content is almost like a predecessor to botw, like you're incentivised to experience at least some of that stuff but you can also just shoot through the dungeons and ignore it all, its pretty cool

[@SkyBlueFox1]

@@aliceyuri Exactly! It's a big part of why Termina is such a well-realized setting, and the same can be said for BOTW and TOTK's versions of Hyrule. OoT is actually pretty similar, too - none of the NPCs are very deep, but just seeing how their lives have changed between past and future is enough to make the world itself interesting. You may not get to witness the actual character-development, but you still see a start- and end-point, and that can get you speculating all on its own. It's part of why I hold OoT and MM on equal footing; their differences really compliment each other.

[@aliceyuri]

@@SkyBlueFox1 i also agree that there's a kind of simple elegance to zelda stories and their themes and characters, they resonate without being too complex, its one of the series biggest strengths tbh

[@TheCayDawg]

I like how the game progression is like A Link Between Worlds. Chunk-by-chunk design where you have dungeons to tackle in any order at the beginning, Hyrule Castle, then 3 more freeform options, then final dungeon. Also the mini-boss of Faron Temple is Manhandla, a recurring 2D Zelda boss.

[@not_the_vampire]

Condé wasn't touching enough for you to remember his name? Absolutely insane take.

[@seantaylor424]

I have a harder time seeing Zelda as an anthology than others because the first two games were directly connected, the third game was a prequel with a Gameboy sequel, the N64 duology blatantly referenced previous games while setting them up to be stories told in the future and Wind Waker hinges on being a sequel to the N64 games. I know Nintendo regrets having continuity in the series now, but they have only themselves to blame for letting it grow as much as it did for such a long time (and letting it comprise some of their most famous games). To that end, I appreciate any attempts at lore dumps over gameplay innovations, no matter how fleeting and/or how poorly they'll probably connect to other stories; I tend to forget how I played a game immediately after I'm done playing, but the stories stick in my memory much longer and I get more fun out of thinking if they can connect versus just writing them off as anthologies you're not supposed to think about. Link's Awakening is a great story in isolation, but it hits even harder when this Link is already established as a good guy who's saved the world being thrust into this awful situation and when it potentially ends his legendary career by just leaving him out in the middle of the ocean; he's not just some one-off hero who had a one-off adventure with a downer ending, he's someone who overcame great challenges in the past and still ended up losing. Fortunately, story never seems to affect the gameplay for those who primarily care about that and the games are always centuries apart even when they are connected, so anyone and everyone can enjoy the series as an anthology even if there are ways to connect the games.

[@jokerofthewildcardarcana1139]

Links awakening DX and the oracle games are peak zelda in my eyes, always some of my favorite games to come back and play

[@jesseshaver2262]

Completely agree. They are probably my favorites

[@HeroesLeftInMan]

I went through the whole game without using the sword form much. The reward for closing rifts was hoping another piece would let me summon more and greater things. Honestly, you can damage bosses faster without it.

[@DavidFowlerMusic]

I can’t WAIT to listen to you talk about Outer Wilds

[@KollegeJansen2]

I‘m sorry that you had to wait - I just finished the game tonight. But now I‘m here!

[@Thew32]

It's possibly my GOTY, yet on the lower end of the Zelda series for me. This feels contradictory but this series just has so many great games that Echoes of Wisdom feels like a drop in the bucket.

[@Bighomie39]

I disagree entirely. This is easily in the top half of Zelda games for me, and I would be overjoyed if the 3D games followed this formula instead of the classic formula or the Switch-era formula

[@BuffPomsky]

Def top 5 for me. Absolutely loved the gameplay and being able to start in hero mode. Sooooo fun and unlike kingk it was a completely new experience for me. Only reason it's not higher is due the weaker story 😅

[@Bighomie39]

@@BuffPomsky tbh I go into every 2D Zelda with virtually zero story expectations since the ones I've played that aren't Link's Awakening are solidly 6/10 story wise in comparison to the 3D games

[@micahbarrus8406]

I mean, almost every Zelda game is great (sorry Zelda 2). There are preferences for anyone, but all of them have elements that can be someone's favorite.

[@omegalilbchass8270]

Agreed. The generic dungeon themes and lack of a new map/artstyle make it hard to fully appreciate what it does different compared to other zeldas. Still a great game by itself though.

[@JT-xn9ei]

Because of a bit of open world fatigue, I was okay with doing quests before exploring the surrounding area to its borders. That led me to having a more enjoyable pace. I really did have fun with a majority of the echoes. It scratched that itch I had of wishing for a pokemon ranger game focused on traversal (though I had rescue missions in mind instead of spelunking). Caromadillo, Pathblade, and Ghirro were so much more engaging than using a Horse mount. Crows were also among my most used echoes. A murder of crows was my go-to whenever I explored minor areas, which ended up giving enough rupees that I managed to get through the Great Fairy quests without feeling like I was grinding. (4:55) I think carrying them is less of a hassle than following when it comes to gust zones/geysers. edit: he brings this up later at 14:29. As fun as trampoline spam was, getting the frog accessory made other echoes more viable (platboom esp.). I also had the same issue from the garudo tomb, a personal error on a garudo sidequest, and doing the automatons quest so late that I already had all the materials (though I think I wouldve overrelied on Techtite). Also wish I had more use for some echoes, like Poe and the fireworks. Hm. Going further into the video got me thinking on expectations and self-imposed restrictions. I saw this as a "cozy" game as I felt it's more geared for younger players. I personally don't think having the main mechanic be more optional than not is a bad thing, but that definitely is a personal opinion. I didnt use much of Swordfighter form even as I 100% it as I did consciously want this to feel like Zelda's game.

[@kinryuten]

18:38 The Lanayru Temple Dungeon gimmick is a more fleshed out version of Oracle of Seasons' Sword and Shield Dungeon. That one had you solidifying lava to cross previously impassable areas and focused on fire and ice enemies.

[@Jack_MxM]

Oracle of Seasons doesn't really have the same map as Zelda for the NES. It just has a few visual references to it in similar locations.

[@HeroesLeftInMan]

I'm getting the vibe you went into this game looking to contrast and compare with other Zelda games instead of just enjoying what it is as it is. That's a good way to suck the fun out of anything to be honest.

[@starcoin5653]

Echoes of wisdom kept reminding me of how much more I liked Between Worlds like the progression and map is strikingly similar down to the start of having one starter dungeon, doing 2 dungeons that you can do in either order, then doing Hyrule castle. Am starting to get why people didn’t like the puzzle system in botw and totk

[@IzunaSlap]

ALBW could've been the best 2D Zelda game if it was more challenging. Amazing game aside from the cakewalk difficulty.

[@Zephhi]

@@IzunaSlap I have not played a Zelda game where I walked away and my opinion was affected by the game's difficulty. They're all relatively easy lol

[@chooongusbug724]

What you asked at the end of your comment, I asked myself that too...Then I went back and played TotK and think I realized why I like the approach there and not here. TotK and BotW aren't trying to pretend they're something they're not. They are unabashedly bucking the trends of past Zeldas while harkening back to Zelda 1 with its open endedness. Those games puzzles are designed to be done in a set way or broken and both feel satisfying IMO, where EoW? It feels like classic Zelda with a TotK twist...The lack of commitment to either style makes me realize I don't want the two meshed. What I want? Open air Zelda being its own thing and classic Zelda being its own thing. We don't need the odd combination of both IMO

[@Zephhi]

@@chooongusbug724 You're probably right about that. At this point I'm not really fond of the open style of TotK/BotW but the fact that EoW mixes them is super off putting that it's probably the first Zelda game I'm not going to play

[@chooongusbug724]

@@Zephhi I think EoW is worth a playthrough TBH, but uh...borrow it or sail the seven seas for it lol

[@marche800]

I always used the Swordfight Form in Conjunction with a squad of Echoes to maximize my DPS. Sure, you can just switch to Sword Fighter and use thst to fight, but that's far from the most effective way to handle enemies. Using Sword Fighter in Tandem with echoes is the most effective method I find.

[@favna]

With the amount of echo puns this video has I think KingK's smooth voice will never stop echoing in my head

[@MasonOfLife]

NEW KING K ZELDA VIDEO LETS GOOOO

[@Butterism]

I just beat Echoes of Wisdom last night. It's the second Zelda game I ever beat. The first was the Link's Awakening Remake. Due to that, I was having that ah-ha moment every hour. It especially helped that as soon as the map opened up, I put aside the story for a bit to unlock every fast travel point and explore a little. It was fun taking out how level enemies with nothing but my wits, some fodder, and some smoothies.

[@bradleyboyd]

KingK is the goat of Zelda videos

[@telekinesticman]

OUTER WILDS MENTIONED

[@Owen133]

The idea of having access to a wide library of echoes with their own use cases is great. There are certain creative broken things you can do but it's nowhere near as deep totk was with its systems, nor does the game demand you to learn all the nuances of your summons. A lot of the toolkit feels redundant as a result. The game is still great and many who have been put off by botw and totk will find this romp to be a wonderful time. But for me at least I don't think it has that memorable uniqueness that makes it stand out from other games i've played. That aside, can't wait for the inevitable triforce heroes review where you admit it's the best zelda ever!

[@Fachewachewa]

The talk about the game not being truly open at the start did remind me of TotK where it's "open" but then every side quest you see refuses to starts because you haven't been to the one place the game wants you to go

[@sambeckettcat]

Watching this I’m realizing how much I kept forgetting about lock-on

[@michaeld808s]

I also did not know you can actually grab on to flying echos until I finished the game. The cloud echo really came in clutch during late game

[@munchrai6396]

The creature collection aspect of the game is something I really enjoyed. Even with a few upgraded forms, there's still tons of different enemies all with their different uses and some with some pretty interesting personality. The Ghinis especially captured my heart with their dumb licking antics and I'm thinking of using the work others have done on minimum echo runs as a base for a sort of Pokemon esque run. Where I compile a list of 5-10 of my favorite echoes and attempt to complete the game kind of like I'm playing Pokemon. I do wish that the UI for echoes wasn't so bare bones. Would be cool if you could map up to 3 echoes to different buttons, so this sort of playstyle would feel more natural, but it is a good start for this sort of playstyle

[@trevorparker6400]

Make sure platboom and flying tile are on that list. They trivialize a lot of platforming segments

[@garymcginnis8511]

15:20 Why is grabbing the chest with bind disappoonting? I didnt use that solution, and neither did u so i think it being an option is rad. Same for drowning enemies. Why would these be bad things?

[@KingKlonoa]

I think the problem is more so that the puzzle itself is a good example of why puzzle solving in this game didn't really satisfy me. The way I eventually solved it didn't really make me feel clever, and the one everyone else seemed to be doing was not enough of a cheat where doing it would have been a worthy tradeoff. The idea of being able to cheese it doesn't bother me. I mean, I love Totk.

[@darkisatari]

26:14 OoS does not have the “same map as Zelda 1.” There are references, but the map itself is totally different with settlements and land formations. In other regards I agree with your sentiments here. EoW is very fun but feels a little undercooked.

[@jaredwalley5692]

6:20 I'm on my second playthrough, snd I find it interesting what gates you find, and how quiclly you can pass them. I find it fascinating just how much you can complete before story happens. I don't see that as a straight negative.

[@10ALundstrom]

2:50 That Temple music from Smash is so nostalgic 😊

[@MM-lv7iy]

I do agree that the Still World feels underrepresented in the dungeons. It would have been cool to see more weird gravity effects or even just some stilled people to add a more sinister ambiance to them.

[@Resmungo]

You have strange opinions that I don't share. But you articulate them very well and they are worth hearing.

[@TheJadeFist]

17:25 "Track down a Deku Baba", not to be that guy, but that's a Manhandala. (after 100%ing Hyrule Warriors that boss is etched firmly in my brain, even had the same Gimmick have having to go track it down as it moves from place to place)

[@moggtow]

What I love about this game the most is the fact that every time I see someone play they are almost never using the same echoes I did or doing the puzzles the way I solved them. It's my second favorite 2D Zelda just behind Spirit Track and first if we are only considering gameplay (and no ALTTP is not up there it's actually one of my least favorite, I hate how the Super Nintendo sound and there wasn't much of a story ).

[@alanorta9720]

Bout to sleep so good to this

[@Moth-s3t]

Same

[@WugWug_The_Ugly]

I summoned a flying tile for the quest where a Gerudo wants to see one, and then never again. I didnt know you could glide with birds until my "collect everything run" before the end. I got most places using clouds and water columns. I often used the spinning blade things with an eye on top as my Pegasus boots equivalent too. Summon it and hop on to speed straight ahead across the overworld. What i think i loved most, was the fact that since playing it through everyone else had a multitude of different solutions, favourites and tactics throughout. Swordfighter form only came out during boss battles for me so i could fight alongside my toughest echoes. Personally i loved the game solely because it felt both so familiar while deviating enough to feel fresh. As Link becomes more of a combat focused baddass in his games, i hope we now have a puzzle focused parallel series in Zelda led titles. For a first foray into this direction, i commend Grezzo for their hard work and the final product.

[@jellef4704]

For me, i wish there was a long thoughtful slumber dojo mode that was 100% puzzle with strict limited echos to accomplish the goal. Zelda :VR Echo Missions

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

Beds stayed relevant but not water blocks for me after I learned that you can use the tornado guy to rocket the bed into the air with you on it. I do think the game is a little too simple, similar to Link Between Worlds. Funny since you literally said "It's like receiving your dungeon item before entering the dungeon" which is what that game did. But I was still just happy to have something similar to classic Zelda, and that this game wasn't just BOTW but 2D. I thought I wasn't going to enjoy another Zelda game and that it'd be best to just move on, but now I'm actually interested in what the future holds for the series. They've shown that they can walk back decisions they were firm on, so maybe they realized that it's not just "nostalgia."

[@Khaos-Thanathan]

Great video and great views on the topic. In my opinion, Echoes was a great game considering it was Grezzos first standalone Zelda title. I do agree with your views though, which is why I want a game in the spirit of Majora's Mask again - a game outside of Hyrule in which the devs can experiment again.

[@jjtheenton]

This is the kind of structure I'd like to see with the next 3D entry. It's a solid foundation for merging the best of classic and modern Zelda.

[@phantomasriel8348]

Your perspective is fascinating to me, I approached this game with a 100% mentality so I didn't use swordfighter form at all, I also completely forgot that crawltula existed until I was heart piece hunting in the late game, to say I've never played a zelda game like this would be repetitive, still it is cool to hear this side of things

[@stevesamuals2651]

Funny enough, i think a glitch came out that essentially allowed you to zuggle link, level 3 items and all, out of the prolouge and use him normally. Which also made it impossible to use echoes. Makes me wonder how much of the game could be completed without the echoes

[@bld9826]

Spoiler alert: I hate how the end of the game takes away a certain key power from you. Like, as you mention in this vid, you spend most of the game improving the power, and the dream training (IMO the best and hardest challenges l) gives you further upgrades for the power... which then immediately gets taken away for the endgame sequence.

[@matthewmuir8884]

I honestly really liked how the final dungeon takes away the swordfighter form. The final dungeon has Zelda play alongside Link; it more than makes sense for Link's weapons to be returned to him, and it means the player has to rely on echoes and bind, which frankly should've been the case for the whole game.

[@bld9826]

@matthewmuir8884 Oh, I like the idea in a vacuum, but then, why do I get all these upgrades based around prolonging my swordfighter form? I bought all these great fairy equipment slot upgrades too, just to be able to wear them all. That, and honestly it makes me feel almost like a spectator in the final fight, I felt spectacularly limited watching Link do a lot of work while I spammed echoes, dodged attacks, and yanked a few weak points. I liked the game overall, I just think the ending let it down despite being cool on paper.

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

When Zelda and Link get separated in the final battle, I was expecting that to be your chance to play as Link again. Would've been cool if your sword upgrades mattered in that hypothetical situation

[@gustavoganzo4333]

As someone who almost maxed out Sword Fighter mode, I was pretty happy it got taken away so I can experiment with different Echo combinations. I played it in hard mode and it took me two tries to beat the final boss and it was so much fun finding the best echoes for it!

[@iamthehobo]

I I just want to solve dungeon puzzles in 2D Zelda and find goodies on the Overworld. This game delivered in Spades I had a great time Edit: my report to the King after the game will definitely advocate for Deku scrub genocide they are the worst

[@ShadianVise]

I also found some puzzles uniquely frustrating to the point where I wondered how my 12 year old son beat the game so quickly. But I think finding your own solutions to those puzzles is more satisfying than doing the same in BotW and TotK, mostly because in those games you could often use the same solution to break most of the puzzles. I sent 10-20 minutes on some puzzles in EoW before figuring out I was overthinking it or coming up with some crazy way to use echoes that I had never done before. I had a lot of fun.

[@Toast4Time]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt that way about the dungeon item. It was such a missed opportunity to have the dungeons not replace them with equivalent echoes, I feel like the gimmicks could have been more interesting while also not being required to explore the world. I still really liked the game but the art style just kept reminding me that Links Awakening was so much better :(

[@3hanhan]

I think the game is great. Not every game is for everyone and people need to realize that. Or just be content with what they have. Some people don’t even know what Legend of Zelda is, so I am grateful that I am able to play the games

[@matthewmuir8884]

Null is evil: its goal of erasing existence isn't out of primordial hunger, but out of a conscious desire to be alone in the primordial void, and it expresses a vehement hatred of the goddesses for creating Hyrule to imprison it. It isn't a hungry parasite like Bellum; it is evil.

[@Jack_MxM]

Just so you know, there officially is a timeline which Nintendo has had since at least the 1990's and Link's Awakening has a position in it.

[@iceogungner3273]

never had I heard such a classy way to say "this is not for me, but glad someone enjoys it" than at the end of this video also, that's a BEAUTIFUL version of the zelda theme at the end credits. Is it from the game itself?

[@garyantonyo]

I did everything before hitting up the second dungeon, some areas were empty but nearly the whole map is accessible. Didn't touch Zora or Gerudo till I cleared every region including getting a lynel in the lost woods. I did do the as many mini-rifts as I could without stepping on the main quest though. Its possible and its incredibly rewarding to find all the little ways to break the game. The big boulder is kinda op, largely indestructible and most enemies just can't deal with it. So is the beetle mound, acts as an endless source of distraction for tough enemies, especially if they aren't super fast like moblins.

[@sunwukong5518]

Did you get to play Mario Party Jamboree? Will there be a video on it soon or will we have to wait for your opinion on it when you get to them in your retrospective series like with Superstars?

[@veezopolis]

I appreciate it taking place in LTTP hyrule so much

[@TriforceZard]

I enjoyed Tears of the Kingdom when it came out, but as time passed, its flaws became more apparent to me. Echoes of Wisdom is exactly what I wanted out of the next Zelda. Most echoes felt like a new dungeon item, so I was constantly getting that dopamine hit. I enjoyed the dungeons way more than BotW and TotK’s. Echoes of Wisdom is probably my favorite Zelda game on Switch, at least until they port Twilight Princess.

[@SamAllmon]

“Oracle of Seasons has the same map as Zelda 1” in what way? They don’t look anything the same to me.

[@drovethedrill711]

I love your concluding thoughts. I feel like the basic message of "it wasn't what I wanted from X game in Y franchise" is often stated in game reviews, especially if the person was disappointed by the game. But rarely is the person so at peace with not getting the things they want. It is usually a gripe-fest. Your perspective is refreshing, almost sweet . . . like a father who doesn't care about going on his favorite rides at the amusement park because his kids get to ride their favorites.

[@exactly1176]

Echoes of wisdom is the perfect mix between the old classic Zelda games and the more " modern " Zelda games like Breath of the wild . Truly the perfect blend. We finally get the best from both !

[@jesseshaver2262]

I want new Zelda games with more restrictions. Echoes of Wisdom is a step in the right direction but only about halfway there

[@SethaaSchneegepard]

You skipping the water temple with the spider makes me go 🤯

[@supervisedchaos]

24:24 never have webs been more appetizing.. IRL, media, you name it

[@Piccadally]

I do agree on a few things you said, especially when it comes to this game feeling familiar. To me, that was a good thing though! It reminded me so much of A Link to the Past, but that was actually really nice because it made Echoes of Wisdom feel a little more... homey to me? A Link to the Past was my first Zelda game, so I have a lot of fond memories with it that Echoes of Wisdom will now be associated with too. I just always had this fuzzy and warm feeling while playing it. What I think is interesting is how the experience of playing this game changes a lot depending on what kind of echoes you start using for traversal and/or for combat. I'd say about 65-70% of the time I was solving these puzzles "as intended" and I think it's because I followed the main story line without too much traversal and wandering around areas the main quest didn't lead me to anyways. The dungeons were also quite nice, Lanayru Temple is also my favourite. Overall, I had so much fun with this game and I have to say, almost unfortunately, I had a much better time with it than with Tears of the Kingdom, which was kind of disappointing to me (just like Breath of the Wild). Neither TotK nor BotW are bad games at all btw, they just lack this distinct Zelda feeling for me.

[@TheFriskySquid]

The chest blocked by the blowing fire thing, yeah you can grab it with bind or you can just simply walk through the fire. The fire blower doesn't prevent you from moving, it simply damages you. I think this speaks for a lot of the game, and why although I could tackle the puzzles in a thousand different ways, it just ends up being too easy. So while I could play it again and have a completely different experience, it would likely only be even easier for me and leave me feeling empty. The game is too easy. Echoes are fun to use, but you really just end up using the same ones and you can basically walk through puzzles because none really test you.

[@r1b3y38]

My biggest issue was how often I was faced with a puzzle, and had to choose "cheese and skip, or engage with the developer's intent." Playing around with the echoes was fun, but I just constantly felt like I was just humoring the game when engaging with its challenges. Neat idea, but needed a bit more time in the oven.

[@marcozamanni]

I know that no one else except me would have liked it, but I really wish there was a limit on the amount of the same echoes you could spawn, to make the player work with what they have got instead of spamming the same 3/4 overpowered ones in every situation. Or at leas I would have liked less and more balanced echoes.

[@w33aboojones]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO, a KingK video I cant watch cause I havent actually finished the game?! This is a first for me and im upset.

[@goldmemberpb]

The exploration structure is very similar to the RPG assassin's creed games. it gives you the freedom to go anywhere but certain areas are just locked off because they are story relevant. While it does mean i may have to do certain places twice, it also meant I can just do the main objectives without worrying about missing anything. Your mileage may vary on what's more efficient.

[@yedffgd]

Echoes of Wisdom > Tears of the Kingdom and it’s not even close.

[@ash8244]

You are insane lol Totk is much better than echoes The game is still great Your just a hater, and have shit taste

[@gooeydude574]

The Legend of Zelda: Invasion of the Body Snatchers

[@annaisntcool]

BABE WAKE UP NEW KINGK VIDEO

[@Jappio]

Echoes was a great time for me. I luckily got the good brain tingles when I solved puzzles. I do like LA and Oracles more, but I think this is my next favorite 2D. Maybe it was satisfying because BotW and TotK were the most recent titles (and I loved them too like most titles in the series), but it was nice going back to 2D and some of that old structure! Very much respect and recognize your issues with it, and thats probably why it doesnt meet the bar set by the GBC titles. But from a remake team to now this, Grezzo is on the right track i think, and alsl look forward to their next works!

[@joelsytairo6338]

Everyone says they encountered the gerudo tomb early. I really didn’t encounter this as it’s super out of the way. Like I guess people really did just wander off miles away from the main objective

[@matthewmuir8884]

I love Echoes of Wisdom, and I completely agree about the inclusion of swordfighter form: the game should've completely committed to the echoes & bind mechanics and not had Link gameplay be just a button away. I deliberately chose to actively avoid using it, and most of the time, playing that way was great. However, the Ganon fight and some of the sleep challenges felt built around using swordfighter form.

[@trevorparker6400]

Yeah. Swordfight form is one of two issues I have with this game. It feels like such a cop out. The final boss is my favorite because it takes it away and forces you to use your other tools, and I wish the other bosses were designed in that manner

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@trevorparker6400 Yeah, the final boss was a fantastic boss fight. I especially love how it finishes with Zelda using bind to retrieve the Triforce of Power.