The Lessons that EDH-only Players Don't Learn

[@salubrioussnail]

Check out the accompanying podcast episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/noK4Y4CBe6mjjLc It covers the elements of the topic that I didn't go into as much, including niche formats like Dandan and as well as a greater discussion of the benefits of playing limited.

[@beanslinger2]

The biggest strain on my previously commander exclusive playgroup is the amount of time each game took. We're all busy people, and the length of a commander game being 30 mins m i n i m um (can take several hours depending on the game :/) was too much. We've since swapped to "modern" (60 card format with some house rules attached) and... i think its called PDH brawl? (uncommon creature as your commander, 60 card singleton format with only commons allowed, 25 life and 16 commander damage is lethal) these smaller deck formats make for much, much quicker games. playing these 60 card formats after eternal commander games has really boosted my deckbuilding capabilities. I can finally not fear a land --> sol ring --> arcane signet start and now live in fear of one and two drop creatures. sorry for the essay I just enjoy your videos and wanted to share my group's story. :)

[@Azeria]

I’m an aggro player in Standard and by far the biggest lesson I’ve learnt is that the best free counterspell in the world is the one they never have to play. That’s not to say that you always play your biggest threat into open mana, but every counterspell or cut down they use is one they don’t have anymore. Don’t zero for one yourself by playing scared.

[@HSExsiccator]

Amen. Make them have it. Then make them have it again.

[@Glennjamyyyn]

Wonderfully put. i LOVE throwing down threats or making intimidating swings with open mana JUST to scare my opponent into using resources or counterspell. Either they let me do it because they're scared I have counterplay, or they get scared and counter it, letting me swing later without repercussions.

[@halcyonacoustic7366]

Yup, just won a game because the my friend was too scared to play anything (including his board-wipe) I might counterspell for two turns. I asked him if he had anything to bait out my counterspell afterwards and he absolutely did.

[@sicklysweetdenouement]

This. If you don't push their resources, they'll just sit on them until they have too many resources to get past.

[@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey]

If yer aggro yer basically just trying to drop more threats than he can remove. PUT EM DOWN DONT LET HIM STACK MANA

[@cynthia-op8rx]

60-card formats teach you important lessons such as "run removal" and "redundancy is good"

[@DoctorGalactor]

Highly agree on recommending pre-release events. The foundations pre-release gave me some of my favourite moments while playing magic, even though I realized halfway through that I had about 6 extra lands that I didn't need which caused me to lose 3-1 lmao.

[@Han-um9dt]

definitely agree. I got into magic off of a a Wilds of Eldraine pre-release and it was an amazing way to jump right into my vibrant LGS scene.

[@ColeTrainStudio]

12:15 FINALLY, AN EDH PERSON SAID IT. Pauper and Draft/Cube are, imo, the premier way to play the game that is not legacy or vintage.

[@baconsir1159]

Pauper is where it's at. Also just built my first cube, need to order it all when I have some spare cash.

[@w8ting4fri]

I just made a pauper cube and I’m much more excited to draft that than I am to play commander.

[@josephvandenberg2483]

Cube OP

[@blackfalcon179]

I never liked Pauper but Limited is a great way to learn new cards

[@changhyon92]

i mean pauper is literally legacy lite

[@CHoustonify]

Anecdotally, more and more people I'm meeting play EDH and limited and nothing else. This is because they don't want the experience of bringing a deck they love to a 60 card competitive format, only to lose, 100 percent of the time, to a moderately good standard deck utilizing the meta. Limited feels scrappy in the same way the randomness of commander allows, so players with worse cards or less experience can actually stand a fighting chance.

[@itsafish8726]

man it sure isn't that the price of other formats happens to be so expensive, rotations, and banning that making. Also how they are so much more feeling of competition in 1v1.

[@danielolsen3514]

From my anecdotal experience, edh first players stick to edh & lesser extent limited because they find more success/wins. Or they can easily blame losses on edh politics or "opening a bad pool." 60 cards heads up is a more unforgiving format, especially older formats. One bad decision can lose a game. There isn't another player to bail you out or a luckier pool/bomb to recover with. Players like to build their own decks. More often, you spend more time deckbuilding than playing. So players put focus on that. Edh and Limited are the most forgiving for Brewing.

[@crushcreate1461]

@@itsafish8726 Sure, this can be a factor, but Commander decks can be very expensive to build as well. Granted, you can compete with a $100-$200 deck at most tables just fine. As for limited though, $15+ for draft and $30+ for prerelease adds up really fast.

[@bamby3144]

For me its more that proxies aren't allowed in constructed format and I can't afford to buy even a pauper deck lol.

[@sethadelman8]

rotations, especially for standard is what makes it the best format in magic rn. yea its expensive but there are cheaper deck options that are still effective

[@ralonnetaph6450]

this is a general topic that I think deserves far more discussion than it is typically given, especially the nature of not being able to use other players as a shield where the only reason you're still on the board is because swinging at you would leave the other player open, that is one of the reasons the format encourages pillow fort playstyles and if it's all you know it makes it hard for you to see when you NEED to start laying pressure on your opponent. Also thankyou for the pauper shoutout, it's lower powerlevel of individual cards has been far closer to the feeling old kitchen table magic I used to be able to play with my brothers than EDH, partially because that feeling most of us want to chase is heavily influenced by the fact as a teenager you didn't have adult money and internet shops for singles you had what you pulled from the 2-3 packs you could buy every weekend, and that was mostly not very good commons, so that was what you played with.

[@danthewafflelord3059]

@@ralonnetaph6450 pauper is unironically cracked af. I love it

[@ralonnetaph6450]

@@danthewafflelord3059 bless the format where something as simple as "a 2/2 vanilla for 1 mana" is an auto include in almost all decks that run that color

[@danthewafflelord3059]

@ralonnetaph6450 Glint hawk provides a lot of neat Synergy with stuff like Tithing Blade, Carrot Cake, and Lembas

[@simonteesdale9752]

I feel that probably the biggest thing EDH-only players lose is an aggressive instinct. The sheer amount of missed attacks from utility creatures I've seen is utterly astounding. Like the difference between a control deck at 35 and 10 life is huge, and probably adds ~40 minutes to a game.

[@Lazydino59]

Honestly also a “play to win” mindset and threat assessment / “empathy”. Had so many games where I start going after someone and they are like “dude why” and it’s because I know what I can and can’t beat but they just don’t understand why my low to the ground aggro deck is hammering their super friends deck

[@jolteon345]

That’s also a flaw within the “let everyone do the thing” mindset. Someone just ramps for the first 5 turns? They aren’t doing the thing so people feel bad attacking them. Then when they finally go to do the thing, it’s something that you need to stop anyway or else they win. I’m slotting more Monarch and Initiative cards into my decks to incentivize combat without forcing it. I love goad as a mechanic and I like it as protection, but I hate it when incentivizing combat because it removes the power of choice.

[@MrGaiakid]

People don't like to become "the bad guy" early game by poking at anyone, that's why I love playing Nelly borca, I force people to play the game lol

[@fiddlewheelx]

My biggest lesson from other constructed formats was rolling with the punches. Accepting removal, responding to responses, not blocking unless necessary, this is very important to understand if playing MTG.

[@hoodiegal]

I agree with this notion and it's why I hate that standard is so difficult to get into. I started playing in Return to Ravnica. You wanna know how? I walked into a store and bought a standard-legal precon. It wasn't super powerful, but strong enough that it could put up a fight and win a decent number of games. It still had some clear upgrade paths, which made me excited to buy booster packs. A bit later when I decided that I do want to drop more money on this hobby, I bought an event deck (Dragon's Maze Selsenya deck) which was way more powerful than that precon and contained a bunch of cool and powerful rares, including Parallel Lives (!). Now if you want to get into playing standard, you've got... the starter decks I guess? With one rare each? (what a joke) Or you can find a decklist online, bring it into a store, and hope that they have all those cards as singles. Great. Or you can order from an online marketplace. Using a third party vendor (neither wizards directly nor the lgs you play at) is the most convenient way of getting into standard. Waow.

[@baconsir1159]

The pipeline for getting into Standard these days is Arena

[@brunop.8745]

wow your pfp is absolutely ancient

[@Silas_MN]

@@baconsir1159 which is why paper standard has dried up so hard the last few years, there's no method to transition from one to the other

[@wickederebus]

​@Silas_MN a precon deck you buy 1 or 2 of, with a code to redeem the contents online would be awesome. Buy 2 physical precons that you can also immediately test with on Arena

[@casually_lurking]

I hopped in here too; it was a fun environment to jib people with Azorius Aggro' in.

[@mimpbusiness]

randomly opening youtube to be greeted by a new snail video... effervescent

[@Syngraphaeor]

Fantastic verbiage, sir

[@mimpbusiness]

@Syngraphaeor don't call me that

[@KodasGarden]

bubbly? that word means bubbly lol

[@somethingelse1339]

"This video is so fizzy how dare you agree with my bad word choice I'm angry now"

[@mimpbusiness]

@@somethingelse1339 i'm fine with people not getting my stupid meme reference just don't call me sir we're not on reddit and i'm not a man

[@JusteeniLingueeni]

I've been on the other end of the scale. I love watching your videos, but I'm a 60 card and limited player through and through. I play timeless (and sometimes historic) on MTGA and I've been getting very into Cube lately (especially low power Cubes). I have some friends that also play, but they're EDH players, so we see the game very differently. Despite our differences, we can still appreciate the nuances of each format, but the differences still feel very jarring. One of the main things that has scared me from playing commander (and still continues to) is the sheer complexity by nature of how it works. Board states get very complicated, and trying check how many resources your opponent has, cards in hand, commander damage, threats, deck strategies, any current political play, gets very overwhelming. Heck, even remembering upkeep triggers or resolving a stack with 3+ cards starts to feel really overwhelming when there's so many factors at play in commander. I've started to realize that the reason why many EDH players seem to go about things just fine is because they're just not keeping track of all those things, and just kind of playing on autopilot, not worrying about the finer details. I like to try to play to the best of my ability (not so much as in a "I need to win" sense, but an "I want improve myself as a player, win or lose" way), so it's very hard for me to ease into the mentality of just playing simple magic on a complex board state. Contrarily, I've found that when playing Cube with EDH friends, it's apparent that they struggle with the opposite issue. They'll never keep a land in hand to bluff a resource advantage, constantly play instants and activated abilities well before they could've been provoked to, and struggle a lot with combat especially (notably forgetting that double blocking exists). I think that once that initial hurdle of understanding how other formats work is surpassed, players really appreciate the nuances of a simpler game. The race against the clock with aggro, the careful resource management of a midrange mirror, the art of timing with combo decks, and the intense stare down of a control mirror. Even though you have less tools to work with compared to EDH, the game just takes on an incredibly beautiful form that keeps me enjoying MTG. tldr: I find EDH feels so complex at times, that you can't stop to appreciate the smaller details. Playing simpler formats can help you understand and admire those parts that make up so much of Magic.

[@aris.7564]

Happy to hear a plug for pauper! It's my favorite format, bar none. Decks are cheap, strong, and incredibly fun. That being said, I hang out on the pauper subreddit a lot and it's sort of fascinating seeing the misconceptions that EDH-only players can have about sixty-card formats crop up. Just today someone was asking about why anyone would play aggro when combo decks exist. Sometime I have been noticing a lot with pauper newcomers has been a fear of netdecking that I think holds some people back quite a bit. If your EDH deck is a turn or two slower than the other three people at the table, it doesn't matter nearly as much as it does in Pauper. If someone pulls ahead, there are three other people to slow them down. In pauper, if your deck isn't fast or efficient enough you're either going to get killed by an aggro deck or totally locked down by a control deck before you get to do the cool thing you're trying to do. There's absolutely space for brewing in the format, but brewing a deck that can compete 1v1 requires way more format knowledge and experience than building an EDH deck that can win a few games at your LGS.

[@micboyyaboy2578]

YES! Pauper mentioned! I got introduced to it back when my high school was going to do a pauper tournament (it never happened, sadly), and I bought an Eldrazi Tron deck for it!

[@baconsir1159]

Love me some pauper. Cheapest format, and the most diverse? Good shit. Sure with Paupergeddon wasn't all the way in Italy, or we had some US equivalent...

[@RedPandaStan]

this hits so hard. when i built edh the way edh is normally built, the same 20 staples plus a few commander specific synergies, i got bored as hell. when i started building them like standard decks? thats when stuff got fun

[@garak55]

This a 100%. Netdecking from edhrec is the bane of my existence.

[@ThePloftis]

My local store has started doing Standard Brawl tournaments. Which is a 1v1 59 card singleton with a commander and the number of games I won because the other player just never blocks is astounding. Theyll have 7 mana up and not block with the mana dork even though his mana value is useless now

[@escapegrass]

Just want to say - Your sharuum slide is my favorite deck, I’ve changed about 20 or so cars to make it better without increasing the budget by much and it’s been performing amazing! Your original list definitely was an amazing starting point and inspired me to improve it! Ty for making good content and giving me one of my favorite decks!

[@ikaros110]

Yes!! I would also recommend delving into other games. I've played Hearthstone, Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh before being introduced to Magic and they all taught me vastly different things. My decks in both limited and EDH usually stem from me comparing cards to mechanics I've experienced in other games. Also I feel like in commander you can make all sorts of playstyles work (your Malfegor deck is a great example), so experiencing another game will make you stray from building the same deck with different cards over and over again :)

[@majinvegeta6364]

As someone who learned how to play MtG at an LGS that had Type 1 tournaments every week for FNM, I was genuinely shocked by the concept of not running ramp in 60 card formats. It legitimately took me a solid minute to reconcile the fact that my experience +27 years ago was not the norm for the time, let alone today. Now that I think about it, formats like Standard, Modern, or just kitchen table magic using newer sets are the most likely entry points for players who have found the game in the last few decades and they rarely use ramp. That's just crazy to think about. I've played a lot of MtG. I've made top cut in PTQs, States, and got 2nd place in a 226 player Beta Draft Qualifier. I have played just about every format, other than Pioneer, and still, after all of these years, I see Vintage as the default. That's wild to think about. It just goes to show how much influence our environment has on our development as players when we are first learning the game. 🤔😳🤯

[@Pendergast891]

I've won many clutch games after surviving at 1 life The only life that counts is the last one, and learning how to ensure you keep it is an important step every edh player should learn

[@colecook834]

Damn, this helped me learn just how slow and optimized my ur dragon deck is. He died 5 times in one turn.

[@Breviparopus]

How!

[@colecook834]

@Breviparopus i need more land fetches.

[@Breviparopus]

@@colecook834 but how did he die so much in one turn

[@WookieRookie]

​@@Breviparopusprobably he was killed on sight and then recasted due to some kind of infinite mana until no one had removal in his hand

[@aeolus7762]

I have actually adjusted how I build EDH decks based on a few things, but mostly just consistency. 10 ramp, 10 draw, 7-8 removal with 1-2 board wipes (depends on the type of deck), and 36 lands with 1 commander. Partners will give up one of the removal spells. As someone who started in 1v1 formats, having this standard of deckbuilding was gained from not net-decking when I played 1v1 and as I played cEDH more, I realized how much I needed the consistency to make it through games. It blows my mind that people attribute EDH to a beginner format when sometimes the plays you have to make completely supercede something you'd do in 1v1, especially when it comes to higher powered tables.

[@-rolyat44]

I think a lot of the most important things you can learn from playing different formats is from playing decks of similar archetypes across different formats because in different formats the edge cases and skills being tested, even for decks that largely play the same and maybe even play the same cards, can be wildly different. I personally have found I have a distinct advantage against the average edh player because not only do I play competitive 60 card formats just as much as I play edh, I also have a significant background in other card games being a semi competitive yugioh player as well as a casual player of pokemon and a few other more minor card games while also being the type of player who wants to learn everything I can about every deck but also having a definite preference in deckstyles towards primarily control and midrange. My playing of yugioh and magic have especially been helpful for bolstering a number of skills because of the extreme difference of pacing between the games. With edh largely being a midrange format and yugioh being combo hell with it being extremely difficult to play combo and midrange at a high level there is an extreme dichotomy of in how my opponents are playing even with me largely sticking to the same few playstyles and as such I'm playing to very different outs

[@pockettrigger]

I think the biggest thing as someone coming from other card gamed (Hearthstone and YGO) is the difference in mindset. Alot of the time the players I play with who started with EDH struggle more with getting there stuff removed and going into the lategame slog then I do. It also happens in deckbuilding as well, I find it alot easier to be more flexible in deckbuilding thanks to my experience in more traditional 1v1 formats/games. I forged my iron will in the control warrior trenches, I WILL play this 3 hour game out and there is nothing you can do to stop me

[@leadpaintchips9461]

Eh, I've won and lost enough that I'd much rather get a couple more games in then hoping that either my opponent or I topdeck a win.

[@OmneAurumNon]

Lots of good memories with control warrior :) I reached legend for the first time with murloc oracle control warrior, back when I was playing hearthstone

[@pockettrigger]

That's fair. I feel like the longer games lead to my decks being tested in scenarios that wouldn't really come up if I avoided long games and just scooped

[@GH-un9uz]

Another MAJOR thing edh is bad at teaching is giving newer players feedback on what their deck is doing wrong/needs more of. If you keep facing wide boards you can't stop because you don't run sweepers, then each time you lose a game you go "dang, I should really put some sweepers in the side". EDH being 4 player means a player who doesn't run enough counterspells/removal/sweepers can be saved by another player who does. The high variance of 4 player, 100 card, singleton gameplay means there is less immediate feedback on your deck's painpoints. The length of games also means that you just get less "data". If you go 3-2 because you lost a minimum of 4 games to token beatdown, you might not keep the information stored on a chart somewhere, but you will remember that you lost a bunch of games in a single night to this deck, maybe I should plan for next time. If you play 1-3 edh games in a night, losing one long game because you didn't have the sweeper won't be as memorable. EDH is a great format, but when new players get into edh and then never leave, they get better and better at *EDH*, and not better at Magic as a whole game.

[@CatManThree]

Its also a lot harder for other players to give you feedback themselves, be it for your deck or playpatterns. For example, a couple weeks ago there was a band new player at a pioneer event I went to whom was running an izzet pheonix deck. He wasnt really adjusted to things, but everyone was able to give him general tips on matchups, stuff to run, and play patterns. Even little things like holding your draw spell until the end of the opponets turn. In commander you cant really do this due to the high variance in deck construction outside of CEDH. Theres also how unrefined and messy commander decks tend to be anyway, as well as how their flows tend to be very single minded to most people.

[@dashkatae]

One thing about limited formats over EDH that you didn't touch on is that playing a limited enviroment makes you better at assessing threats. I've seen some multiplayer games where someone will just pop off a removal spell at the first thing they can even though the card might not be that threatening just because the game will go long or they'll draw more cards to get into action and there are other players to help as well. In one on one though, you have to think things through as you may never draw into another answer so killing that early game card might bite you in the butt since now you have no removal for the actual threat that will win them the game.

[@LazarusIsBackBaby]

Limited is SO fun. If anyone is on the fence about heading to their LGS to draft--do it, you won't regret it.

[@thetrinketmage]

A lot of words just to say Mental Magic is the best format...

[@Nemonkulus]

Galaxy brains do cedh air duels. It's like rock paper scissors meets connect four and you have to mentally keep track of your five zones and your opponents open three zones.

[@simonteesdale9752]

Counterpoint: Judges tower.

[@thyshoeve5173]

Listen, I come for the thoughtful discussion discussion on casual EDH. I stay for the unexpected plug for the best ways to play Magic.

[@JD-gk7eh]

@7:05: "It's not worth a card to get ramp in a 60 card format." I'd say in higher power formats, it's not only not worth it, it's wholly unnecessary or actually impossible because your cards are so efficient. You can't, for example, ramp out a Tarmogoyf because it only costs 2. 60-card decks in a format like Modern are full of cards like this, cards that are already so efficient you can't ramp them. It's not even "not worth the card," which implies there's some benefit to the practice but the cost of a whole card is too high a price, but that there's nothing in your deck to ramp into at all.

[@matthew20141]

Mono g post ramps out hardcast emrakul

[@JD-gk7eh]

@@matthew20141 That's an entire archetype designed around casting huge things ahead of schedule (because the game will be over by the time you'd cast them on schedule). Not the same thing at all.

[@JNDDS1]

Ramping can be powerful with the right pieces and the specific strategy. Look at legacy with chrome mox, mox diamond or exploration. Chrome mox allows prison decks to put out a critical piece a turn earlier to lock out the opponent. Mox diamond was used in lands to put a turn one wren and six into play before normal counter spells can be played. Exploration is a bit niche because it accelerates lands decks because of the land nature of their combos, but it still matches the point. I mean, even gem stone caverns is played in modern. It just depends on your game plan and the available pieces.

[@ReyaadawnMTG]

You can also play ramp in EDH because your hand is never truly empty, you’ll always have access to your commander that always gets more expensive.

[@Lazydino59]

Also the game inherently lasts longer. In standard If you play a turn 2 rampant growth and die to mono red on turn 4 you get like +2 mana max. In casual commander most games are at least 8 turns so you are minimum +6 mana

[@Swoozman]

My Gut, True Soul Zealot/Inspiring Leader deck has 0 mana rocks and 10 Doomed Traveler Adjacent cards. I call it my “I came to play Magic the Gathering” commander deck. And if my opponents want to spend 4 turns ramping, Ill gladly eat them alive with Skeletons before they have a chance to do anything.

[@EldritchSquiggle]

what happens if you get wiped, gut costs 5 and your skeletons are gone? This has always been the issue for my similar goblins deck.

[@VoodooDuck]

!decklist please

[@Swoozman]

@@EldritchSquigglewhite has a lot of 2/3 mana board protection spells. But the deck’s curve also pretty much ends at 4 and has a lot of card draw so rebuilding isnt rough.

[@1000Tomatoes]

I think in brawl you see blocking with commanders more often since unlike most other cards you can replay it if it dies.

[@Silas_MN]

edh being the default beginner format is horrifying to me, singleton decks drawing on a 30k+ card pool is a great way to scare people off

[@mcstotti8691]

As someone who started playing magic at the start of this year i actually loved starting with edh. No one ever told me i couldnt play card x because of rotation.

[@sd_does_stuff]

Makes a lot of sense. Keep up the good content. We love you snail

[@AliceB0]

Breaking: one format does not teach you to play a totally different format

[@Lazydino59]

I think another whole part of this video that hasn’t been touched on is how commander-only players act differently than for example seasoned legacy players. How a player reacts to being MLD’d or targeted removal or something else. Growing up in a casual only format can often insulate players from large volume of “feels bad” play patterns that can often be produced in the game, leading to those “salty” players you know from your lgs

[@seanedgar164]

Tbh I'm a commander only player of 8 years (I have an edh cube and sometimes do prerelease but not really) and I think people are getting mad at newbies in general. Like I'd get annoyed playing 60 card kitchen table when I was first learning against my friend's modern bant control lmao it irons out over time

[@Lazydino59]

@ such a mood, playing with newbies feels like babysitting kindergartners sometimes

[@ethanosgood8159]

To share my personal experience, I started playing with 60-card kitchen table decks, which mostly just taught me the basics of having a game plan. From there, I started playing commender, and grew a lot in understanding consistency in deck building. More recently, as snail was saying, I've played a lot of draft and sealed. It was a format I was slow to learn. I started too used to the big splashy decks of edh, and tried to use a lot of clunky control decks with no finishers. Now, I have a better understanding of limited tho. I recently did a draft of Mystery Booster 2, and built one of my favorite decks. It was a White/Green/Black midrange deck with some early advantage pushers like a turn 4 storm play using Kobolds of Kher Keep, Memnite, and Noxious Rebirth, and some later finishers like "Who's That Praetor" and Hogaak ,who carried a couple games by himself (turn 4 gaak is disgusting).

[@doomdonuts2241]

Thanks for the pauper shout out 🫡

[@eebbaa5560]

the lesson: how to play magic

[@imaginarymatter]

Interesting companion piece for the Magic Mirror podcast.

[@matthewvandyk7773]

I miss casual kitchen table 60 card multiplayer magic. (Or college pub table magic). Anywhere from 3 to 10 player's just playing 1 massive game of 60 card magic.

[@jnqt]

i’m a veteran 60 and 40 card player who just built my first commander deck. i gotta say, the culture shock has been pretty strong but i rly appreciate your content.

[@theArcosa]

Speaking on EDH as the new beginner format, the biggest problem is that teaching newer players every effect in the game, and what their expected use-case is, has always been an impossible task. We always forget the years of experience we have as enfranchised players, and basic things like the cost of entry that some of us have paid over decades. Pauper seems like a great place to start! I’ve never played it, but I wonder if PDH would be a reasonable step up.

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

The biggest thing that I feel most EDH players don't understand, is that they need to play to win, not play to not lose. This also cover the good old "make them have it". If your play is 50/50 of winning and losing, depending on if they have a counterspell or not, you should probably make the play, especially if your other options amount to doing nothing. Losing in 10 turns is the same as losing in 5. Playing to not lose rarely works in 1v1, and it NEVER works in 4 player commander.

[@JD-gk7eh]

"Losing in 10 turns is the same as losing in 5." Ah, but it's not. This is true if your only goal is to win the game, yes, and anything short of winning the game is a failure. But that's not why players play EDH. They are playing for an experience and you get to do a lot more of the things your deck does when you play 10 turns. Because your deck is all 1-ofs, each game is highly variant and you won't see the same cards in every game. Playing more turns gets you deeper into your deck, which means more of the cards you put in there, which are often there because you think they're cool or do something unique or are aesthetically pleasing. Players are fully content with a game they don't win if they had a good experience. If they just play a few ramp spells and then die because someone comboed off on turn 5, they didn't have much of an experience at all. But if they got to cast their whole hand, draw cards, and then lost after 10 turns, they did get to experience their deck, even if the game didn't end in their favor.

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

@JD-gk7eh if all you want is to see that cool thing your deck does, you can just goldfish by yourself or do a show and tell to the other three players. Playing MTG while actively not trying to win is like playing basketball without dribbling the ball. Why even play in the first place?

[@seanedgar164]

​@dancingmathusalem5451 bruh it's a social experience. I play to hang with my friends. Yeah we mostly try our best but I care more for having a good time with friends. Sometimes that means not board wiping even though I'm behind or not taking out the struggling player

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

@@seanedgar164 pickup basketball with my buddies is also a social experience, but we dribble the ball because we met to play basketball. If none of us wanted to dribble the ball, we would stop meeting for basketball and start doing something else we found fun

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

@@seanedgar164 moreover, the fact that you think that "having fun" and "trying to win" are opposites is kind of weird. I can do both, and so can all the people at my LGS.

[@GuyFromCanada]

I think 1v1 also teaches a lot about greedy mana. In commander, land hate is often stigmatized due to its power to completely freeze games to a standstill. However I'd argue that's because a lot of commander decks aren't prepared for the fairer types of land hate. I've seen commanders that barely run any basics because land hate is so stigmatized, no one runs it, so they can usually get away with it. But then every now and then, someone drops a winter moon, a blood moon, price of progress, ruination, etc. and they suddenly lose the game because they built their mana too greedily. If you play Modern or Legacy, this is just something you have to be prepared for, most decks run at least enough basics to cast whatever spells they would need underneath a blood moon or back to basics. A lot of commander decks do not, in favour of utility lands, or "Basic with upside" cards like Bosejiu, Who Endures. I feel this is a symptom of learning in a commander environment. Most people stigmatize land hate, so you run lots of non-basics (because more value is more better), then you run into someone who DOES use land hate, you lose to it, you get mad and ostracize them, the stigma continues, the cycle repeats. But this could be cut off at the pass with a few more basics and ways to find them. Which you would learn from 1v1, since Blood moon and similar effects are a present threat in a lot of older formats. (Note, when I say land hate, I don't mean mass, unrestricted land destruction like Armageddon. I mean cards that target a specific type of land to counteract greedy mana, or hate on a specific type of land.)

[@CatManThree]

Commander brain rot is always so incredibly funny though.

[@waterbottle6644]

As an edh only player, I do weekly commander games with my buddies, and I hope I can learn some good stuff from this.

[@simonteesdale9752]

Probably the best advice I can give is to be intentional about combat. If you aren’t going to block with a creature, check for free attacks. Also, if in doubt plink away at the player with the best late-game. A control deck at 5 life is beatable in a way the same deck at 20 isn't.

[@Portrial]

Because of how the format is handled, a 1 power creature in 60 card formsts is equivalent to 6 power creature in edh. Lastly, in 60 card formsts, tempo matters

[@simonteesdale9752]

@@Portrial I get what you're saying, but EDH utility creatures are often bigger (such as Tatiyova, or Omnaths), and there are more turns in total to plink away. 3 people attacking with 2/2's adds up surprisingly quickly. Also, tempo absolutely matters in EDH as well. It just looks different to 60-card.

[@latimelord3586]

4:00~ ish, not sure if you get to this, but ‘blocking with a key creature’ in a 60 card vs commander, one big difference is in commander, that ‘key creature’ is a one of, while in 60’s it’s often a 4 of, that may not change your point, but that defiantly changes the thoughts of ‘I need to keep this alive, because otherwise I have to get it back to play’ instead of ‘I can block because I can get another from a draw’

[@d.barrett578]

Limited is 100% the best way to develop a deeper understanding of the game.

[@chaninakosovske6567]

Babe wake up, salubrious snail posted! :)

[@davestier6247]

Yeah, the point of newer/edh only players kind of glazing over or packing it in if their deck doesn't Do The Thing is facts. I'm not sure if playing since before some of the guys in my group have been alive helps, but it seems like it might also factor in.

[@blackfalcon179]

As a Standard player turned Modern player turned Commander player, I think this video brings up a lot of good points for players to understand the intricacies of this game and how to play tighter.

[@Jerhevon]

Not just stacks to cut down on resources, but a solid board wipe will leave some players grasping for straws. Personally why after 2-3 creatures I like to diversify my threats with an enchantment or artifact. Advancing my board, but hopefully without exposing everything to removal all at once. (On the flip side, in white I do like my WWW Hour of Revelation and just trying to clear everything out at once.)

[@mule51]

How to netdeck is another thing that playing 60 card formats has taught me. Looking at a decklist and making tweaks to the deck and then iterating on those tweaks, has helped me be able to use sites like edhrec to make a deck functional and appropriate for the purpose I want for the deck,

[@Merepiff]

This is an interesting discussion to me. I played standard way back when, got back into the game for commander, but I learned life is a resource from commander rather than standard. Though, my friends joke that I never block anything, so I am not exactly the exception to the rule lmao

[@swampybwoy]

I think drafting / sealed is one of the best ways to teach deck building heuristics like mana curve and creature count etcetera

[@ebbandfloatzel]

Kind of a weird bit of advice but in my opinion one of the better ways to get better at playing commander and even magic in general... Is playing OTHER card games. Pokemon plays a lot like legacy, with the importance on combat emphasized. While yugioh makes you navigate not only your own combo lines, but your opponent's too. Those are the two I play occasionally, and they provided way more insight into deck building than commander ever could on its own. otcgs like Shadowverse and Hearthstone also do some good, but tend to have a WAY different feel for both gameplay and deck building due to the nature of every card being curated.

[@Stinkoman87]

I think cardfight vanguard taught me to be better at blocking.

[@christianayala5943]

I think the ramp in commander goes hand in hand with the insane amount of card draw letting you have a full board

[@BouncingTribbles]

Commander best represents the original vision of magic the gathering. There is a great book called Arena. It was one of the first magic lore books, if not the first. It tells the story of wizards who have collected links to powerful beings and fought duels with spells. We were already playing mage tower in 4th edition.

[@nowhereweareagain]

I have a friend who does nearly every pre-release and a decent number of drafts and he has noted similar things about me in our pod when games get “low slung” where while him or another will try to grind out the game, I just want it to end so we can play again. I enjoy rye game pattern of edh, the way it lends itself to big plays and swings, but I don’t enjoy when it becomes a grind. In my limited experience with other formats, how in engage with the game is different. Grinding out a win against one person with 2/2’s is fun and challenging in interesting ways. Trying to do the same against 3 other people with twice as much life is tedious. I don’t want to grind commander games because I don’t find it fun and that’s what I’m here for. Saying that I need to learn how grind a commander makes me feel like I’m being told the best way to stare at the sun,I’m being given advice on how todo something I have no interest in doing.

[@TheMercurialAlchemist]

One of my favorite EDH decks right now is Brenard, Ginger Sculptor. Part of the reason for that is that I run a bunch of little dudes with good etb's, like Woodland Elves, then kill them obviously for more value with Brenard out. Some of my opponents always forget that I can do that and don't expect me to instantly chump block. It's so strange to most players that I *want* my creatures to die, especially when it's a non-black deck

[@theunease5541]

I love limited and I can tell I get much better at the game the more I play it and I can tell the people I play against irl are much better than me because they play it. But the only way I can play limited right now is grinding free to play drafts on arena and prereleases. Which sucks if I do badly cause it means I can't even play that much at all. I've wanted to get into pauper for a while now, but I just don't have anyone to play with so the motivation to make a deck is hard, especially if the meta might change completely by the time I get a chance to actually play someone at all. I am definitely gonna build a cube at some point too, cause it sounds amazing and so fulfilling. I should try to use cockatrice or something to draft and play more games in general, but crippling social anxiety, lol. Instead I just spend most of my time building silly edh decks for myself 99% of which will never see the light of day, but were fun to make at least.

[@rubensmith776]

As a primarily cEDH player, I enjoy your more analytical view of casual commander.

[@Asidchild]

Luke warm take: my least favorite thing about EDH’s grafted format origins is infinite combos. I doubt they’re going anywhere, but the idea of a deck with 99 cards and poker sized draw hands makes them feel like a bug that got grandfathered in for better or worse.

[@CatManThree]

I mean you could always just...not run those.

[@treetheoak8313]

Draft and sealed will make you a better deck builder and player.

[@AaronOneal-e7h]

The lesson they never learn is that not everyone enjoys Commander and heaven forbid you share that opinion on the Internet.

[@Ilikemagicthegathering]

i sad i failed my driving test but its ok new Snail video

[@mitsosoftheelves]

A weird case is, well, EDHrec. In the sense that the site can teach some very bad deck-building habits. Some cards keep finding their way in certain Commander decks / archetypes for the sole reason of players seeing them in EDHrec & adding them, despite the fact that they might not exactlyt fit / they are a nonmbo (due to some rules misunderstanding), & they then upload their own decks & those cards become even more prominent & so on. Building EDH decks can be quite challenging, particularly for the casual crowd that the format attracts. But things like the above basically mess with real understanding of deck construction & why cards are included.

[@minerman60101]

Arcane Signet recommended for Kozilek, the Great Distortion 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

[@gregconen]

It's been a long time since I was a kitchen-table player, but as I recall it was not nearly as long-slung and grindy as competitive magic. The psychology of big swingy cards being more fun for a lot of people applies in kitchen-table-60-cards as well as EDH.

[@glenndean6]

I like Jumpstart cubes. No deck building, manageable deck size, lots of discovery by mixing things together, easy to generate variety for an afternoon.

[@Stupidiusity]

My biggest gripe with EDH players is how easily they give up. I guess it comes from what you're describing. They see the situation as hopeless and decide they just cannot win, so they don't even try. It happens to me SOOOO often when I play online on Cockatrice. I'll host a lobby, even label it as a cEDH lobby to make sure I only get experienced players. Then we'll start the game and four turns in they'll scoop after I remove their commander once, saying there is no way they'll come back, even though two players at the table haven't even cast theirs yet.

[@witchBoi_Connor]

Questioning what ramp pieces are actually in my decks for good reason has been saving a lot of my decks. Nothing more fun than getting rid of sol ring. I realized I could drop all my rocks in my Jolene deck because "duh, my entire strategy is ramping with *treasures*".

[@Azkr-]

I'm afraid of going beyond the eDH bubble because I only play with 2 other friends, and the knowledge I gain will just make me push to optimize my deck, when we're currently playing about 90% Vanilla precons, with swapped cards that came from a quick YT video that happens to recommend changes to that specific precon But man does the Magic ecosystem look amazing to indulge on though

[@mark1A100]

I would argue most of what you get from playing non commander formats is more threat assessment l, learning to sequence cards to avoid over extending, and balancing pushing for game while avoiding blow outs.

[@calebbrown1068]

Is there any chance we could get a breakdown on your budget Ellivere deck you built for Trinket Mage’s recent video? I want to bring more aggressive, Limited energy to my tables and that seemed like a good place to start.

[@Lazydino59]

I LOVE my ellivere deck. Only precon I ever bought and changed out a lot of it by now but learning how to upgrade the deck can make you a much better player. For example birds of paradise is the best card in the deck because it’s ramp when you need it early and can wear auras to draw cards later.

[@koboldqueen3055]

I build my deck in such a way that I can almost always block, blocking is so important, and a couple of good early-game blocks have won me games.

[@Peter-wj2hz]

I think the decline of draft in particular is tied to the gutting of organised play. Draft is the most skill-testing format by far.

[@Lazydino59]

Also draft is expensive. I can build $100 magic deck I can play unaltered for a year or more or go to 5 drafts and have a bunch of chaff and ultimately lose money. ROI and the monetization of the game also plays a big impact

[@adamgalloy9371]

Primordial is a more casual 1v1, 40 card format I've always wanted to check out more. It restricts you to one magic set/block and limits the number of cards at each rarity that you can have. This means it's super easy to build a cheap deck and a new player primarily collecting cards from the newest set will almost "accidentally" have a deck they can put together (unlike Commander where a dedicated pre-con is virtually an entry requirement without an established collection). It kind of seems like "kitchen table meets limited".

[@dkonfadim]

As a Yu-Gi-Oh player hearing about the commander format got me playing

[@disastideas5209]

We typically play Oathbreaker or Cube in my playgroup, and those work really good!

[@earth9564]

I have a mono-blue aggro Kira the Great Glass Spinner deck. Almost all unblockable or flying creatures with plenty of "loses all abilities" auras as well. Zero ramp is needed because the top of my curve is 5 mana for playing Kira the second time after it eats two removal spells.

[@nickhayden5244]

I just got my girlfriend into magic with the new beginner kit that came out with foundations, there’s a book for each player that plays out 6ish turns of gameplay for each player but you start at 10 life to simplify and speed up this “tutorial”. The thing is that she asked me to play another game with the 20 card jumpstart style packs after and that’s what gave her the most fun. All i’m trying to say is if you’re new and scared of faster less life, less card formats listen to snail and try something new

[@sunwarrior25]

I miss meeting up with 3+ people and playing my smaller 60 card decks in Not 1v1. Two-headed Giant, Archenemy, Secret Alliance... those were the days.

[@NerdsofWisdom]

I have several decks now where I do not have a sol ring as I need pips and not colourless. I also go through and work out the ratios of pips in every deck to consider if I can make use of ramp that uses colourless or not. I now have more and more decks that run 3 cmc mana rocks because either I want to cast different cards (often my commander) as my 2 drop or the advantage of the colour is better than the 2 drop colourless option.

[@petrri323]

People who play 60 card are usually better Magic players. They have a better understanding of the true value of each game piece. And are much more accustomed to walking the razors edge to a victory in a much more low-to-the-ground format. Commander players have worse “nose” for the ebbs and flows of a game than 60 card players. It really boils down to the nature of singleton vs playset formats. Commander is singleton, meaning many more unique card interactions and mechanics to keep track of. This puts a much higher emphasis on card knowledge over gameplay knowledge. (The decks are effectively forced to be janky therefore the gameplay is less consistent) the high variance means that luck plays a much higher factor in determining a winner. Compare this to the sheer efficiency that can be squeezed out of a 60 card list. It’s not about drawing into your out anymore, because you have the out FAR more frequently the outcome of the game becomes much more heavily dependent on how and when you use said out. Not just having one and playing it on whatever big scary hit the table most recently. The consistency of 60 card decks places a much higher burden on how well a player knows specific rules interactions. Where as the variance of commander places the emphasis on overall card knowledge. (The margin for error is much smaller in 60 card than in commander).

[@TheDerpyDeed]

fair point about ramp and draw my current favorite modern deck has 0/60 ramp, 4/60 draw, 12/60 removal, 8/60 engine-enablers, 22/60 land, and the rest is utility...

[@brushwagg7735]

I feel like Arena does a shockingly good job of teaching the value of sequencing and having a real plan in a stalemate.

[@DarthTUK]

I do like that me consuming all sorts of mtg content is making me a better player for exactly these reasons.

[@barryswigart1432]

You did it. You figured out why I love Stax and everyone I play commander with does not. They all come from precons. I come from limited and standard.

[@doublebrothergaming4440]

With the ramp issue brought up, what if I mainly run 5-6 manna (3 unique color) commanders I want out a turn or two ahead of time? Would it still be bad to include this form of ramp?

[@Dragostorm21]

The reason why 3 mana ramp is bad with 4 mana commanders is that you don't speed up your commander. A 5 mana commanders works well with 3 mana ramp

[@loganduncan4315]

Honestly, 60/limited just makes you better at squeezing the most out your small pool of cards in your deck(playing your cards better) but it makes you better at identifying bad cards/dead cards. When you play 60 card and your deck testing your going to be thinking to yourself that this card is dead or it is not doing enough or is to slow or is not as good as a sideboard piece as I thought. but in edh you don't often play with every card in your deck let alone with the same pieces playing the same opponents. I goldfish my commander decks pretty heavy, I find it fun and it makes trimming the fat easier but I also am criticizing my cards heavily. the exception being for cards I want to play like mind slaver in my Saheeli, the Sun's Brilliance deck but if I choose to play a card for fun my cards to support that and cards that find my self not casting I should not be playing.

[@Isthatchicken01]

Although I am still a “new” player (been playing less than a year), with the limited amount of standard format play on paper and Arena I quickly learned I don’t really enjoy 1v1 more competitive play as much as I like casual commander games with more friends.

[@TheTexasDice]

I always start out with my Theros cube before I whip the Commander deck.

[@YOMIsaac]

Time to get everybody in these comments into Canadian Highlander

[@sabersaurus7018]

Cool time vault format.

[@kinglardicus8596]

You mean the "you have to be considerably rich to even consider playing" format? No thanks. Mox cards are basically required to BEGIN playing.

[@valerielusa8000]

​@@kinglardicus8596kid named proxies:

[@thebigsquig]

@@kinglardicus8596it’s a proxy format

[@Dragostorm21]

​@@kinglardicus8596proxies bro, it's not like it's an official format or anything

[@commandercorner5575]

I love draft. The problem is I don’t frequently want to drop the money to play draft, especially since the cards I’m likely to pick up are going to be mostly chaff, and it’s not particularly profitable for a store to stock packs just for someone to draft once every couple months at most. Yeah, that’s definitely why Cube is a desirable format, but it’s not the same, and it’s just unfortunate. I’ve been playing a long time, but I’ve also gotten rid of my entire collection once already in large part because I intended to be done with the game, and it was just a hassle to lug all those cards around with me. Ultimately, Commander is just a great format for someone with my level of experience and where I am in my life right now.

[@faerievandal]

my first experience with magic was Kaldheim standard through Arena and I genuinely think I'm a better player than I would have been otherwise because of it

[@federicodefago9270]

Do you recommend any commander cubes? My play group likes vintage power level.

[@bookwyrm1885]

PAUPER MENTIONED HELL YEAH!!

[@Hell_Majesty_]

Pauper mentioned! PDH acknowledgment coming soon 🙏

[@creamsoda2392]

No format is better for skill building than draft, I'm sure of that. I used to need my friend to build all my draft decks out of my shitty pulls, but now I can give him a pointer or two sometimes. I still have a bunch of commander decks and probably play that format the most, but I'm 100% sure that 100% of my skill came feom draft.