The leveling system every game needs to ditch

[@Keegan8311]

Rage 2 tried something similar and people hated it. In Rage 2 you get your abilities and some weapons while looking for Arks. You can find said arks while exploring the map or if you buy intel from someone. While some of them are required for progress, many are not and are entirely skippable. Then upgrade these abilities or weapons with feltrite and tiers are locked behind research, basically favors for the various region leaders, usually that is when the main quests take place. Also blueprints you can buy from stores from hub locations. Also mutant glands and junk you naturally pick up while playing the game. I liked that system quite a lot. It means that I can play the game at my own pace and my way. At first glance, the map is your typical Ubisoft icon fest. However, most of the locations serve a purpose and always give you something in return. There are skill trees and upgrade paths, but these require resources, not some vague number of xp. I liked that. I think I'm going to play Rage 2 again.

[@MediaKitGaming]

Thanks for the insight! I stopped playing Rage 2 because I struggled with the menus and wasn't engaged by the combat. Maybe I'll give it another go.

[@Keegan8311]

@@MediaKitGaming Combat is pretty stale at first, but once you get different abilities and weapons and gadgets it becomes very very engaging and fun. You can combine most powers to create some really amusing combat scenarios and it gets really hectic sometimes. I think that's one word I'd use to describe Rage 2 - just pure crazy fun.

[@Gonzalo_105]

in the game "Bully" you unlock new fighting moves by giving a homless guy some radios or batteries (the item don't matter). he then teaches you a new move/combo. it is, in escence, the same as a skill tree. the item you collect is a point, the homeless guy is the menu and you giving him the item gives you the same result as clicking on the skill icon. The big difference is that you never have a menu involved, you get the point and the skill inside the game, trough gameplay, not in a menu.

[@MediaKitGaming]

It appears bully was ahead of it's time in many ways. People have commented on it's innovative melee combat too. I haven’t played it.

[@MrPangahas]

The usual point levelling system can still be used in combination to level incrementally those skills from quests.Nothings more underwhelming than a point spent to increase a spell's effectiveness by a mere 5 or 10%.

[@MediaKitGaming]

Totes!

[@Trohaga]

Was hoping to see a new Mediakit video sooner or later! Your vids have been really helpful with figuring out my own video game ideas, hope to one day show the results!

[@MediaKitGaming]

Fav comment ever! Thanks, Necrodancer. May your code be clean and your frame rate > 60! All the best in your dev endeavors... en-DEV-ors? Let me know when that game is public.

[@saparapatepete]

I think a big issue of skill trees is that many devs focus more on quantity of skills than in the quality of them.

[@MediaKitGaming]

I feel the same way. I took Horizon Zero Dawn to task about their skill trees in my video about HZD's combat. How Horizon Zero Dawn Redefined Combat - kzbin.info/www/bejne/gYrOoGiXn9Oqfa8si=Fleg2JmMIc_LlTnp

[@jhary_cool]

now i get why it feels like a chore playing a game to lvl up for you to reach to a point where you can actually have fun. and unlocking fun upgrades near the end of the game isnt fun either. upgrading doesnt have to be monotonous indeed. and why is this channel so underrated? deym..

[@squishyrat]

Agreed on this video. I think that learning skills should be linked to story events / quests as mentioned in the video. That would be a more immersive way to carry my character through their journey, especially in an open world game.

[@Gnomable]

As much fun as I have with skills trees, they've become a bit too pervasive. I'm glad someone is thinking of a way to do it differently.

[@Selrisitai]

Maybe we're thinking to inside the box. What if we don't need upgrades at all anyway? In Sifu, you have an upgrade system, but it's part of the core element of the game, which is summed up as, "Keep practicing and eventually you'll be good," so if you unlock a skill enough times you'll unlock it forever, and then you can play the game, from a new game, with all the new skills unlocked right away. But what if we had everything from the beginning? What if the game weren't built on what is essentially an artificial sense of progression? We like to unlock things because it taps into a fundamental part of human nature, which is to accomplish things and feel good for it. Every time your character glows because you leveled up, you get a dopamine rush and you keep trying to level up again and again, but as people age they mature, and they become dissatisfied with cheap tricks like that. If you're 35 or older, you're probably just as bored with that stuff as MediaKit. Someone needs to think of a _different_ idea for keeping people addicted to games. Maybe, I dunno, good game-play and solid pacing of a well-told story. Something like that.

[@henryfleischer404]

Well, just about the entire modern Bullet Hell/SHMUP genre is built around this.

[@Selrisitai]

@@henryfleischer404 That's at least a little different, I reckon.

[@gratefulcranegames]

Project Nexus feels pretty good about its points in its arena mode, you only get them towards what action you're performing, but it's pretty sparing. No quests, just fight. You'll usually have more than enough for something when an arena is finished, no fetch quests other than the bank which is optional, the story mode is also there if you prefer a static character of course

[@ungooglablegames]

My favourite leveling systems are in Ratchet and Clank and GTA San Andreas, the more you do something, the more that ability or weapon will level up.

[@MediaKitGaming]

Dungeon Siege worked similarly.

[@Alpha_GameDev-wq5cc]

Only watched 2 of your videos but I love your takes and more than that, your choices of unique game examples too pull from… it gets boring how every other game design channel talks about the same outerwilds, hollowknight, Zelda, or soulsborne and so on over and over again;

[@MediaKitGaming]

Thank you, friend. You’ve also given me a short list of games to avoid commenting on. I can only talk about the games I play. I dumped out of Outer Wilds, I played Ori instead of Hollow Knight and basically avoid Metroidvanias now, I don’t play on the Switch and I wasn’t a fan of Elden Ring (the only FromSoft game I’ve ever attempted). I don’t chase trends which probably does wonders for my subscription numbers (sarcasm). Nevertheless, I try to add a unique voice to the conversation. Your right, it’s boring how everyone retreads the same “hot” take on the same games. That said, in my next video, I plan to take on the UI/UX of Elden Ring and I’m not going to kiss FromSoft’s butt as the rest of the gamer community seems to have. Love it or hate it, I hope you find it interesting.

[@Alpha_GameDev-wq5cc]

@@MediaKitGaming definitely looking forward to that video! Frankly, I'd enjoy to find your take on choosing Ori over HollowKnight and how OuterWilds didn't capture you if you plan to make a video on it... It's just those same "hot" takes that get repetitive. I sorta "hated" the soulslike as the genre was the opposite of my idea of "fun", but recently playing HollowKnight and Celeste, I've grown an understanding for the souls playerbase and I'm planning on trying Elden Ring this winter holidays...

[@MediaKitGaming]

I'll answer most of your questions right here… I don't think they'd be compelling videos… or very long. *Re: Ori over HollowKnight:* By far and away, Ori is the prettier game, both in world design, color, and animation. I'm not a fan of HollowKnight's look. That's why I picked Ori(Wisps). Finished it but didn't love it. A friend who's played both says HollowKnight is the better game. *Re: OuterWilds* I put 7 hours into it and it didn't click. I didn't feel like I learned a single thing toward solving the game's core puzzle... and I finished all the MYST games. Also, the ship is janky as hell to control. Many gamers have expressed the same experience. Many of them pushed through to eventually love it. I bailed. A friend told me the game is mid, but the ending blew his mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ *Re: soulslikes:* I've only played Elden Ring (only soulslike/FromSoft game) I started as a dual wielder but ended up investing many points in magic. The game's absolutely beautiful and imaginative, but I don't enjoy the combat mechanics or the meandering story. Also one of the most grindy games I've ever played. Didn't finish. *Re: Celest:* I dumped out of Celeste in 10 minutes. Just not my kind of game. But, I totally agree with you that just because I don't jive with a game, doesn't make the game bad. Kudos to anyone who finds “their thing” in a game.

[@Alpha_GameDev-wq5cc]

@@MediaKitGaming That's interesting! Thanks for the long response. I stand with your position on Ori(wisp) and with your friend on HollowKnight. I enjoyed Ori(wisp) too but after finishing it I didn't love it like you mention... I didn't mind the look of HollowKnight but I did hate the combat, but playing HK made me love it which wasn't what I expected, so that led me down a rabbit hole researching HK's game design. I've singled it out to be HK's map design, that mostly fuels the game's exploration aspect. I found Outerwilds mid as well and dropped it the first time; tried again just to see why people praise it so much. I've grown up with curiosities of Astronomy and Astrophysics AND Metaphysics, so having indulged far deeper on my own... the game's ending felt shallow and pretentious to me :(

[@MediaKitGaming]

@@Alpha_GameDev-wq5cc "the game's ending felt shallow and pretentious" ❤ I'll keep that in mind.

[@grivalder9364]

Another big problem with this method of gaining abilities is becoming contradictory with some subsequent cinematics. The only case I remember is Ghost of Tsushima, a moderately advanced skill (in the middle of the skill tree) is to deflect arrows while you cover yourself with the katana, but even if you don't catch it, Jin (The Protagonist) will still deflect an arrow during the course from the end of Act 1. While I was writing this I remembered that in HZD Aloy fires the bow while sliding during one of the first cutscenes, and again you still have to unlock that ability (And the attack is stealth, who knows why Aloy doesn't know it).

[@ChrisCloudz]

Dark Cloud on ps2 had one of the craziest leveling systems, you didn’t level up yourself w points but your weapon which you had a risk of breaking or could turn weapon into a weapon attachment you’d put onto a another weapon

[@voronwecalanon206]

A lot of games mentioned in the video are AAA games that have similar issues not involving an XP system. One example I found with both the Horizon games, and Assassin Creed open-world games, is the fact you can relatively easily unlock all the skills, rendering the experience system pointless. This means it's not really much of a skill "tree," and instead you're simply deciding which skills to have first. In my opinion, this eliminates the purpose of having XP. So I would agree with you in this instance; however, in games that allow you choose your preferred playstyle by leveling up with experience, and purchasing the ones you want knowing that you will have to choose carefully your specialization, would change the dynamic entirely. With your system, this would require you to look up a guide on the internet in order to plot your playstyle and skills. Arguably, having to specialize is what made these systems popular in the first place, but the simplification of modern AAA games has bastardized the systems they were based on.

[@MediaKitGaming]

I’m torn on whether a system should make all skill unlockable or not i.e. choose a playstyle vs unlock everything. I guess I’d leave that to the development team of each game. But my system wouldn’t require anyone to look up info on the internet. That's up to the developers to determine how a gamer learns how to obtain certain skills. I’ll say this. I recently finished Cyberpunk 2077 (can’t unlock everything) and Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora (can unlock everything) and in both cases, I found the level tree and XP systems very unfulfilling. I won’t get into it here but I’ve recently been experiencing a plateau in game creativity. Environments are getting better and better (see the 2 games just mentioned) but gameplay has stagnated and even regressed (see the upcoming Star Wars Outlaws).

[@stabbedbyapanda]

@@MediaKitGaming You are playing too many AAA games. That's your real problem. Which I know sucks, because some of these worlds are really cool, but typically very uncreative. Of course a few get by that are unique / interesting. But. The problem with "Game Design" in A, AA, and AAA games is it's very incestual, a lot of the leadership looks at the new big game that came out, and point we need that. People like that. They are telling their Game Design lead or/and Director that. The other issue you have is a lot of these Leads, once they get the lead title will leave and go to another big studio... aka A, AA, and AAA studio and make the same thing there, because they think they are creative when in reality, they gained bad habits and lost creativity in the 10 + years it took them to become a Lead because they were so busy they only played the top AAA games in those 10 years. This is speaking from experience with working with 8 + Design Leads. That shot down very creative ideas, and when creative ideas did get passed, the studio leadership would shoot it down, because they just want "what works" from the big game of the month. But to summarize I love MMOs (except for the last 10 years :( ) and I love skill trees in them which are essentially the same thing, as what you are talking about, but I find myself hating skill trees in a lot of the AAA games you mentioned, I actually think the only game in that list that does it fairly well, was Borderlands 3, but even they do it poorly (This is a Gearbox issue.) My theory on why some of these basic Skill trees are more fun then others, I think comes down to the spirit of what they were originally about. You start weak, you are powerful at the end of one tree, in that specialization. A lot of these AAA skill trees do not understand that, it's just unlocking new skills, which as you highlighted should be either unlocked via training or other methods. When I get to the end of a skill tree I want to feel like a "Master" in that specialization. A lot of these AAA games fail to understand this and execute on it.

[@maxmustermann-zx9yq]

you forgot skill systems where you have to perform action x a nu,ber of times to get better at it sound only good in the beginning though, cyberpunk had that and it ended with players grinding repetitive actions like just running around bc it didnt just give you passives but also skillpoints which you could put in any skill tree and to invest in that skill you also needed the corresponding attribute grinded out

[@k96man]

Pretty sure that was a problem back in the Morrowind days

[@willtews955]

Singularity video game was pretty good for when it was made. I wish it had a remaster though or a sequal because of the cliff hanger.

[@nogydeath]

That Void Bastards seems pretty good, might give it a go later. A system like this would really up desire to explore more in open world games. It'd be awesome to come across at least some of these skills as a function of exploration or piecing little clues together.

[@willtews955]

They could add a passive point system. For example distance travelled based on your endurance level and exhaustion of stamina and management including how fast you recovery. Passive actions in and out of combat including sneak/stealth where you have to stay out of sight to gain passive exp. Even add athletics/exercise training. For example doing pushups, climbing, dodging, attacking and more. You gain exp for playing the game without defeating enemies and of coarse include exp for running away and escaping enemies that are way to tough. It would be a more difficult version of souls and Elden Ring based games but enemy difficulty is higher for example Skyrim on legendary difficult multiplied by 10. The game would force player to use tactics and strategies. There would be items that can buff and de-buff enemies but only by a small percentage and it would be temporary. The game would use a stack based system but with a limit of 2 to 3 depending on how powerful the effects are. Balance would be based on what you might call a IQ test of sorts. The smarter you play, the smarter your enemies are. However the more dumb you play the smarter the enemies become and more aggressive. All enemies have a one or two hit instant kill move, also some could have three. They have 3 to 5 minuet cooldown. Which means you either will have to kill them as fast as possible or dodge for your life. There will be a skill/feat/ability/power/spell/spirit/magic/divine/demonic/etcetera multipower system. All stats start at 10 including pools of health/stamina/mana/spirit/divine/demonic. There would be a element system that uses multiple or one specific pool from a HUD. All skills, etcetera will start at level 1. You start with 10 points to add to anything which includes upgrading skill/feat/ability/power/spell/spirit/magic/divine/demonic/etcetera. Points are used to buy any and everything and you get them from enemies instead of a exp system. Points would come in different rarities. This game would have a co-op/duel/team online system and looser will loose about half or more of there points depending on efficiency, performance and effectiveness from battle. There will also be a gamble solo and online mods for how many points your willing to risk loosing and you can raise your bet before the next round starts. You could choose how many rounds you wish to play. There is a way to win everything you lost back but the penalty where the system will create a average allocation of skill/feat/ability/power/spell/spirit/magic/divine/demonic/etcetera to be as even as possible for all involved in combat. There will also be online fairness mode where it will create a average allocation of such and such as I said previously. Balancing tests will of coarse be needed. But also creating a new internet gaming service completely separate from the normal internet would speed up online gaming. Since most of the internet for gaming acts like bloatware if you think about it. I have a lot of ideas for games to be more creative, more in-depth and most importantly where player smarts matter more that the stuff you acquire. I like a challenge when playing games but the way things are now, the ai cheats, power creep is either insane or none existent, micro transaction make everything pay to win and there is more like bugs and glitches that never get fixed or they break something else when patching. I really want to hope for a better gaming future but it may never come...

[@wildseedtheron]

Working on it. :)

[@StainlessHelena]

I really like this idea. You can allow multiple quests/locations to reward the same skill, and then let the unused quests/locations deepen and advance that skill, as long as you use the skill in question in it. That way every quest/location retains value but you don't have to run to the end of the world to get basic stuff. The same quest/location might even reward a different skill depending on your playstyle and performance.

[@MediaKitGaming]

I love where your head's at!

[@RoboBabeXD]

The best leveling system is the dynamic training from sword and souls series, if you want to unlock bow skills your must practice it, and more level you get at it, it gets harder and there are more kinds of targets to hit, from moving targets to coins thrown on the air

[@MediaKitGaming]

Skyrim and Dungeon Siege were similar, in that the player got better at what they practiced. Still, I didn't like how in Skyrim I had to forge a million daggers just to become better at smithing. It was grindy.

[@RoboBabeXD]

@@MediaKitGaming In sword and souls someone else trains you, there is a wide variety of trainings so you don't get bored.

[@stabbedbyapanda]

Darkwood had an interesting level up system, where you collect mushrooms, and you have to select a positive and negative skill. The skills themselves were a bit lackluster, and a lot of cases the negatives felt stronger then the positives. But interesting none the less, AND it was grounded into the world and helped with immersion. One skill/leveling system I wish I saw more of, which I can't really think of a real single instance of actually. Is School/Master training. Where you are a wizard, a lowly acolyte, because you always start level 1 in these games. So shouldn't you be able to find a master and he teaches you at X intervals? This could be tied to story, or skill bars (Like in Oblivion) or even obtaining powerful artifacts. Then you have to do a small trial (tutorial) to master the skill you are being taught. This could allow for a strong connection to a character or characters as well within the story.

[@MediaKitGaming]

I like your idea. The Star Wars Outlaws game has a similar leveling system. No skill tree. But if you find a “trainer”, you can do their missions and gain abilities.

[@stabbedbyapanda]

@@MediaKitGaming oh interesting didn't expect that game to have something like that.

[@AVids-20]

Very nice design concept

[@caseykoons]

A compromise I feel should be in more games is the option to play new game+ modes at the start. A lot of games have new game+ modes where you can play the whole game again with your completely kitted out character. It could be hidden away in the options, 'enable new game+' if you want to encourage the grinding playthrough.

[@MediaKitGaming]

On the pro side: you already paid for the game, why not let players play how they want? On the con side: a playthrough with no progression because you've already unlocked everything might be boring or too easy and affect public opinion or sequel sales.

[@finallyanime]

Yeahhh!! Glad to see a new video! So glad. Definitely agree leveling would be so much nicer if it was more organic.

[@DTPandemonium]

No. This is just tedious busywork you only tolerate because it's your first playthrough.

[@zennobody1019]

i've thought this for years, i got tired of XP since i was 6 & thought of a very simular method 10/10.

[@GrimDMasterMind]

Skyrim as old as it is, has my favourite leveling concept. You get better at what you do, or find someone better to train you. The magical knowing really bothers me too, especially in immersive games

[@michaellopate4969]

I'm really curious about what you think of Path of Exile given your take on xp and skill trees.

[@MediaKitGaming]

Path of Exile, Torchlight, Diablo, The Ascent… I've played most of these and finished none. I'm done with the dungeon-crawler genre for life! If you watch my rant against Starfield (prerelease) I take aim at Fallout 4 and Skyrim. In that video, I push the idea that skill unlocks should give new abilities (player executable abilities) to the players and not just buffs and passives… Vampire Survivors anyone? When I sampled Path of Exile I went in a magic-build direction and was kicking ass. The farther I progressed into the map the more powerful I became. It felt a lot like the most powerful moments of Vampire Suriviors actually. It got boring. If you're going to play a dungeon crawler, PoE has a very creative and expansive skill tree. I give it the highest marks for its layout alone. Although, for all the customization one can unlock through it (it was a few years ago), I remember it all being buffs and passives with many repeat unlocks that can be acquired through various avenues. If you're into that, don't let me tell you how to have fun. But dungeon crawlers and I have parted ways. I highly doubt we'll get back together.

[@danieladamczyk4024]

XP are dead end. Unlocking skill by doing quest/ achieve something is the way.

[@MRCHOWGIA]

The amount of details, care and dedication you put into these videos is amazing!! You've won a new suscriber!! i love these type of videos when everything is so well explained!! love u dude

[@westonstaufenberg7278]

Just give me all the abilities a character has from the get go like an old arcade game and focus on making the levels/world difficult and interesting, because to me the only progression that truly matters is the player's skill and knowledge, everything else is a waste of time, and is just plain condensing to the player. Don't even give me a tutorial level, give me that vertical slice moment from the world go like Ninja Gaiden 2 (Xbox360) so its not a chore to replay. To me, the first playthrough is NOT the most important, every playthrough after the first should be the priority, there's a reason people love NG+ if its in a game.

[@thelasttellurian]

2 points for you!

[@artistaartificial5635]

I love your content!!

[@flamebitz]

This video spoke to me deeply

[@noobhead6974]

Great video as always

[@georgelongcoal1117]

bu-bu- but etrian odyssey!

[@jacobbacub2253]

I can't believe you edited out Rogue Invader in that top 50 Roguelikes Google Search. Unbelievable.

[@MediaKitGaming]

Rogue Invader was definitely NOT in Google's top 50 Roguelikes. That was an unedited screenshot. I added the Rogue Invader poster in the previous segment as an assist to the Rogue Invader Dev whom I know. Like many indi titles, Rogue Invader is not well known and can always use a boost. I'm wondering, how do you even know about Rogue Invader?

[@jacobbacub2253]

Ahah. So it's Google that is censoring it. I knew Big tech censorship was bad, but this is something else... I'm the lead tester lol

[@ungooglablegames]

The game is riddled with POINTLESS quests doling out POINTS. Indecisive much?

[@MediaKitGaming]

Yeah, definitely a poor word choice there. I've been aware of it for quite some time. But you live with your mistakes.

[@ungooglablegames]

@@MediaKitGaming be at ease it was just banter. I love your channel, this decade a lot of us popped up and most of them, especially under 10k are incredibly shallow, feeling more like diary entries or long tweets, while you are very in depth! I can't wait for new uploads.

[@youcantbeatk7006]

Dungeons and Dragons and it's consequences have been a disaster for gaming.

[@Demonsouls1993]

Skill issue