The Mail Shirt

In this video we will discuss the mail shirt worn beneath the late medieval harness and touch on some of the variations seen in mail over time, as well as some of the alternatives to a full shirt.
Richardson's Thesis - The Medieval Inventories of the Tower Armouries 1320-1410
etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3919/1...
My Mail shirt was made by a company called Custom Chainmail:
www.customchainmail.com
Facebook - / knyghterrant
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#medievalarmor #livinghistory #chainmail

[@-----REDACTED-----]

“We could make an entire series on mail alone” Well then, please do! 😊

[@scottfarrell1]

You mention the ubiquitous use of mail throughout the last 2,000 years. Mail shirts (vests, really) were sold to, and worn by settlers and travelers in the American western frontier, who were looking for something that would protect against the arrows of the native raiders - and the knife blades of some of the more disreputable denizens of the badlands. There is a mail shirt on display in the Calaveras County Museum in Central California that was worn by notorious outlaw George Cox (last man hanged in Calaveras County, according to the museum display). The museum curatorial staff says that "chain mail coats" were, if not exactly common, at least well-known among those traveling the "wild and wooly" trails during the time of the Gold Rush. Just a great demonstration that shows that use of armor did not come to a halt a the end of the Middle Ages.

[@Nighti88]

+Scott Farrell Nice piece of information thank you for that. There are also mentions about the use of mail in the Near East until WW 2 i think. And some smaller parts of Mail have been used in WW1 Frag Protection gear.

[@jdzencelowcz]

What I'm wondering is, could a mail configuration & material have ever been made to stop bullets, of any kind?

[@johngault7329]

jdzencelowcz .. no, that role would fall to the gambeson. the gambeson was the heavy dress that they wore under the chain mail. it stopped the arrows and most stabbings. it also cushioned the blows from the weapon blows. of course it would need to be made of modern materials.. I'm not an expert on this topic..

[@scottfarrell1]

John Gault - Neither mail nor gambeson of any kind would ever stop a bullet, even from a late 19th century era handgun. The mail shirts worn in the American west were intended to protect against edged weapons (essentially knives and tomahawks) and the arrows fired from the relatively light-powered bows of the Native American warriors.

[@jdzencelowcz]

Ok

[@TheCompleteMental]

oh yeah, I remember, back in those medieval raves the maille dance was pretty popular.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Add in some glow-sticks, and things get really crazy...

[@SirSelby]

You mention that it would take an entire series on mail to barely scratch the surface. Please do a longer series on mail. It’s a worthwhile topic, imo.

[@loyalsausages]

Matt recommended your channel, glad I checked it out.

[@laurencewithey15]

Same here

[@Stormdragonbrisvagas]

There is a story of an early 19thC Maori warrior who went to London where he bought a mail shirt from Sothernby's which he took back and wore in tribal battles - probably an apocraphal tale but still a fun story...

[@AmarothEng]

The earliest example I am aware of is 3rd cent CE. The latest is actually WWI - British tankers used mail on their masks to protect their faces. Sad that you didn't get to this topic more in depth Ian, I know it's incredibly complex, just the tailoring, the riveting, the methods, the materials , ring sizes and shapes etc are incredibly diverse throughout history. There are some neat papers written on the topic, I am currently studying as much of it as possible as I am learning to produce and tailor mail, but a single video series covering as much of it as possible at one spot would be certainly neat and accessible addition to that.

[@JustGrowingUp84]

Heh, nice touch with the finger-snap transition. Very nice video, just like the others! The information about tailoring was particularly interesting, and new to me.

[@shrekas2966]

2:29 a knight and a child knight impaled themselves with swords. i love medieval art.

[@k.s.3748]

That's King Saul and his armor bearer from the book 1 Samuel in the Bible.

[@akakios7386]

@@k.s.3748 Why is he smiling... He is being impaled, why is he smiling.

[@Stormdragonbrisvagas]

Excellent clip as usual!

[@feldwebel999]

You have mastered the shimmying out quite well.

[@mattbrown5511]

Thank you a high quality video.

[@GregTom2]

I love the tailoring on your doublet. I don't know how effective it is, but I definitely know that I would have need something like that for my wool double breast trench coat to allow me to raise my arms above my head comfortably.

[@F1ghteR41]

A detailed video series on mail would be welcome!

[@jonajo9757]

I remember putting on my haubergeon for the first time, then getting stuck. My mother had to help me throw it on because I did it head first.

[@conn0rized292]

I got mine last week and put it on over my gambeson. I knew to put my arms in first, but the rest was agony. Felt like I would be stuck in there forever. That may have been partly because I put it on backwards. XD

[@feldwebel999]

I see in an earlier (2013?) video, you used to wear a padded gambeson/jupon under the mail. It looks nice with the arming jacket - less bulky.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+feldwebel999 The arming jacket is still padded, just much less so. Since I made this one I could control exactly how much padding I wanted wear. I agree, this setup is much better (and more accurate).

[@ivyssauro123]

This channel is awesome and very informative, How come I didn't knew it before?

[@kamhyde40]

The use of the illuminated manuscript and altarpiece images is so helpful. They are also just lovely.How did you cross reference the discriptions and the images?

[@KnyghtErrant]

manuscriptminiatures.com is a great starting point to lookup ms images filtered by certain search criteria, and then once you've found images you want to know more about they usually provide links to the holding library's websites where you can find out more about specific illuminations. Its sister site effigiesndbrasses.com is analogous for funeral monuments.

[@kamhyde40]

How cool! the images really make the topics come to live. I'll take a look around the links when I have a chance. None the less, the amount of time you take to pull the images together with the examples is noteworthy. Thanks

[@kamhyde40]

I justl ook a look and I'm amazed at the amount of images available. They are offer such great detail, even in minature. Thanks for sharing the link.

[@M.M.83-U]

The serie on mail seem a very good idea!

[@Kriegter]

There is a picture of a German Special police officer wearing mail recently to protect against knife attacks

[@bluetea1400]

We only have one guy in our fight group who wears a full halburk and we refer to his mail dance as the jarred jiggle :)

[@jennypoussin3866]

Great video! Mat (Easton) recommended watching you and I see why! :) quick question on chain: what would you say is the main difference in protective quality between a chain of the ancient world (Rome etc) vs the kind used in the crusades?

[@Skelstoolbox]

No difference.. It would be the same, other than the crusader maille would cover way more of the body.. It's all riveted though..

[@marcwittkowski5146]

Great video, amazing like- to- dislike- ratio. One question (or two, technically): Do you know when and why people started using the term "chainmail"? I can see why it is incorrect- or I believe I can- but why might it have become so popular in the first place?

[@KnyghtErrant]

I believe the first usage of 'chainmail' was in a 19th century novel by Sir Walter Scott, at least that's the earliest I'm aware of. As for the reason why it became popular, I would be guessing, but this is what I suspect happened: A lot of the specific terms for armor or any other set of terms in a specialized area of study are not in the normal public lexicon. They only become part of the public lexicon when introduced through some sort of popular medium, usually entertainment. When an erroneous term, like 'chainmail' is the term that gets fed to the public, and they have no reason to be familiar with the proper terminology, the erroneous one is simply the one that takes hold. People who don't dig any deeper have no reason to question the term, it gets used more and more, and the problem compounds... the term gets reinforced in popular entertainment over and over and before long the real word becomes buried.

[@marcwittkowski5146]

Thank you for your detailed explanation/ theory. It's nice to see content creators actually interact with their communities.

[@hyhhy]

Nice gear you got there.

[@sensibrettdoughty7692]

thank you vary informative! You have mentiond a pearpoint??? worn under the dubolet. what is this and is it called something else as well? Im just vary confused between the terms dublet, arming jacket, jack, gambeson, akton, and pearpoint and which is used in the 1300s and which is used alone or in conjunction with other padding.

[@keltoi6361]

do you know of an resources for accurate patterns for a battle of Hastings era mail?

[@Hugonis]

Hi there! I have a question. I love the videos and I've learned so much from this channel. Please keep it coming! I noted in the video on leg defense that you mentioned the need for a rider to keep a good connection with his horse. Also, in the video on sabatons and then lower leg armour, you mentioned the gap between greaves and sabatons was sometimes covered by a small maille voider. How common were maille gussets / voiders on the inside and back of the thigh and knee area? Particularly on cuisses such as yours that were not fully enclosed. If there are examples of these, how were they typically attached (similar to voiders on an arming doublet)? Thanks very much!

[@KnyghtErrant]

Hello! My cuisses have since been modified to be fully closed, which coincidentally is the type of cuisse we more commonly observe mail voiders on behind the knee. With the English during my period of study primarily fighting dismounted, the full-wrap cuisse and knee-voider became more important since normally the entire inside of the thigh and back of the knee were pretty inaccessible due to the flanks of the horse being there on mounted men-at-arms. The voiders do appear pretty frequently in artwork and sculpture in England but they aren't necessarily universal (they are observed on the continent as well). How they are attached is unknown as none survive. I plan on making myself a new set of arming hose and I have the mail ready to go. I expect to reinforce the back of the woolen hose with some stout linen canvas and sew the mail directly the hose. When I get that done I will report how it works via a video. There are also some interesting examples out there of half-wrap cuisses (in sculpture only) that continue all the way around with a large panel of mail, so it might be a bit of a 'best of both worlds' scenario, where you have a pseudo-full wrap but half of it is mail, meaning you retain a little more feel with the horse at the cost of loss of some protection. Mail voiders on the ankles are also pretty common in English high-relief effigies. Again, none survive, so the exact method of attachment is unknown. I would approach it by sewing the top row of mail to the bound top edge of a good arming shoe that extends up under the lower hem of the greave. In the artwork sometimes we see the lower edge of the mail overhanging the sabatons sometimes it's tucked in the sabatons. With my sabs having been fit directly to a shoe I will probably try method 1 as I doubt I have space there to shove mail under the lames.

[@Hugonis]

@@KnyghtErrant Awesome! That's fascinating. Looking forward to seeing how the modified cuisses look. Thanks very much for the detailed reply!

[@rileyernst9086]

The lesser known super power. The edit. "Ian dinner's at 9 are you dressed?" "Give me a second honey." Snap

[@LiraeNoir]

Very nice video, like the others. In on of the first video you said this mail was the part of the whole armor you liked the least: do you think it's because it's very well tailored? Or do you find mail more irksome or problematic than gambison and/or plate?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Lirae The mail is the heaviest individual component of my armor and most of the weight of it hangs on your shoulders, so it can also be the most uncomfortable component of the armor, especially after wearing it for a long time. Most of the other components are not only lighter, but their weight is suspended to more comfortable load bearing parts of the body like the waist. You can only do so much to mitigate the weight of mail. :)

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

I bet it woul feel a holy hell of alot lighter if it was well tailored and as well make as your bother pieces. Don't discredit quality mail so quickly.

[@PieterBreda]

A couple of questions: 1: What does your entire suit of armour weigh? 2: Do you know how the modern day mail is put together? Are all the individual rings joined together by hand or is it done by machine? I don't know anything about mail but it seems to be that in modern times, it is probably more expensive than plate which can be machined quite easily (die-press etc) 3: Maybe a silly question, but is modern plate armour/mail comparable to say cars: lots of different quality with different prices?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Pieter Batenburg 1. Including the arming garments it's in the neighborhood of 60 lbs. I haven't weighed it the the most current pieces. The single heaviest component is the mail shirt, accounting for about 17 of those lbs. 2. Modern mass produced mail's rings are manufactured by machine, they are generally hand riveted, but mass produced mail has pretty sloppy rivet work. Mail is cheaper than good modern plate armor because of the skill required to make plate correctly. 3. Absolutely different ranges of quality and prices. You can spend a few hundred dollars or tens of thousands of dollars on a harness. You get what you pay for.

[@domxavierdepaula5302]

Hello Ian. Can you or anybody here recommend a good place to buy mail (shirts, legs, coif, etc)? Great job on you this channel! Very helpful.

[@theodosioskantasmd7388]

yes plz

[@petrvcelak2634]

Customchainmail.com they make them custom sized so you don't need to resize it. Jeff, the guy behind these was really really helpful during measuring proces from my own experience.

[@0311matt]

mail dance... reminds me of putting on/ taking off a flack jacket

[@0311matt]

P.S. does the shorter sleeves help with arm mobility?

[@mikeg5616]

It is so FUCKING hard to make! but outcome is worth it.

[@kennyjackson9825]

When making a mail hauberk would it be a good idea to attach the sleeves of the hauberk like you attached the sleeves of your arming doublet with a grande assiette style sleeve or would it make no difference in how the arms would be able to move while you are wearing your mail?

[@kennyjackson9825]

+Kenny Jackson and a better question is that even possible?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Kenny Jackson Mail hauberk's achieved arm mobility by adding gussets to the armpits, which is in principle a similar concept to the grand assiette sleeve, although not quite as dramatic or with as many gussets. I'm not sure it would really make too much of a difference as far as the mobility is concerned once fully armed though if you could duplicate that sleeve design in mail.

[@kennyjackson9825]

+Knyght Errant thank you do you know how to go about that or could you direct me to an information resource where I could find out?

[@Anthony-qu7qd]

I get mail everyday, eventually I taped it all together to make a shirt

[@godofimagination]

Prior to the aventail, was the coif usually separate from the hauberk, attached, or both? Also, what do you think the squares are on the soldiers in the bayeux tapestry? Most people say they're face guards not being worn, but I can't find a single example of this being done in the tapestry or otherwise.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+godofimagination The coif shows up as both integrated into the hauberk and separate from the hauberk, so neither is a universal. Even after the aventail shows up we do still see coifs being worn by less armored men-at-arms. Sometimes we just see a mail pisan (collar) being worn instead of a full coif. The Bayeux Tapestry chest squares are really a mystery. I've heard it suggested they were mail doublers making a second layer of mail over the vital organs, but I'm not sure anyone really knows. I don't have a strong opinion either way.

[@jdzencelowcz]

Where in the time line would 8-in-2 or 8-in-1 "king's mail" fit?

[@MrHusang23]

At the end, I could feel the weight of the shirt:) It's interesting to know that you need help for the rest of the armor, because we saw you put on the leg armor by yourself. So you can put that on alone, can't you?

[@WHJeffB]

Fantastic and informative channel Ian... Quick question. Where did you get your mail from? It doesn't look like your typical Indian made eBay purchase (it's tailored for starters). I've heard that there are some suppliers in the UK and other parts of Europe that do authentic mail for re-enactors(sp?), but have not found any.Thanks for all the great info... You have a very nicely done harness.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+WHJeffB Thank you! The mail is from a shop called customchainmail.com It is Indian mail, but they make the shirts sized to the individual and they do some basic tailoring like the sleeve taper I have on mine. I also intentionally ordered it with a very long skirt and sleeves so that I could trim them to exactly the length I wanted when they arrived. There are some people out there that do more authentic mail, but this was a good compromise between the off-the-shelf mass-produced stuff, and the full on custom mail which can be very expensive.

[@WHJeffB]

+Knyght Errant Thanks for the prompt and detailed answer Ian... Did you order your shirt with 8mm or 9mm rings? It's an interesting option, considering the difference between them (8mm versus 9mm) isn't that much. You'd think they would go for a bigger differentiation between sizes.I look forward to watching the rest of your videos... Thanks again!JB

[@KnyghtErrant]

No problem, my shirt is all 9mm, oiled finish. I forgot to mention customchainmail.com is located in the US, the rings themselves are from India. I'm not sure if the tailoring takes place at the shop in Florida or in India, but the end result is worth it in my opinion for the price. You would only have to deal with the US shop to place an order, get a quote etc...

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

I forget where I learned this (I think it was the Metatron). But I heard that it was the Celts who first created riveted mail.

[@thomasheydenreich6555]

A great video in a great series! I have a relatively plain question concerning a maybe modern problem: How do you store your chain mail? Do you store it folded or on some wooden frame? How serious a problem do you have with rust? I once heard that rust is not a problem as long as you wear it regularly (which might prove difficult for all parts of a year). As I don't own a piece of mail myself I am curious about that point.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Thomas Heydenreich I spray it down with something like WD-40 or better yet Breakfree CLP firearm lubricant / oil and leave it folded up in a oily towel. I do not wear it regularly enough for it to abrade itself clean, but if you keep it oiled frequently, rust stays away pretty well.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Badger0fDeath It is thought that what your describing is indeed a period way to clean mail.

[@mikegrossberg8624]

Also, adding vinegar to the sand in the barrel helps

[@stowarzyszeniehanza839]

I wanted to ask about round rivets. I couldn't find any findings of those, can you show at least one example. If round rivets were used in medieval time, then what would be estimated proportion between the wedge and round round ones.

[@KnyghtErrant]

I believe the surviving mail coif in Tofta, Sweden is round riveted. You can see a sectional photograph of one of the rings halfway down this thread and the shaft of the rivet is clearly round: myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27330

[@stowarzyszeniehanza839]

Thank you

[@amesrupnick464]

I know this video is old so I understand if you don’t answer but I have a question: Is there historical evidence of Jack chains being used over mail sleeves? Or at that point would the type of protection they both give be redundant?

[@krigsgaldr7603]

How much does a proper mail shirt like yours cost?

[@chrisf247]

Kind of a random thought, but is getting hair caught in mail an issue at all? I realize a lot of people would wear caps underneath, but I was thinking especially about armor that had more mail around the neck and face. Great channel by the way!

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Christopher Ford Yes, it is an issue, and it's very uncomfortable. I don't really have the problem with my head, but I've gotten my beard caught in mail before and it's none too pleasant. It's one of the reasons I'm a tremendous fan of lining the aventail of a bascinet.

[@Haloreach1950]

+Knyght Errant I can only agree. A coif is a very good solution

[@hughmcdonald3039]

Another great vid, thanks for taking the time to make it. The front and sides of the neckline on your mail shirt appear quite wide in the vid. Do you typically wear a mail pisane/standard in addition to your shirt? (not counting the aventail on your bascinet). The reason I ask is that I have observed a high collar of mail in many manuscripts and in effigies where a bascinet is not worn. I haven't found sufficient evidence to have a strong opinion on whether it would typically have been a separate collar or a tall collar which is integral to the shirt. What are your thoughts/research results? (please feel free to shut down this comment if I'm just pre-empting a subsequent vid on mail neck protection) Cheers, Hugh

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Hugh McDonald I wear a lightly padded mail pisane. I would differentiate mail collars of the 14th century from the 15th century mail standard by its shape. It seems most earlier mail collars (covering the 14th century) are round along the hem edge, whereas the more typical mail standard of the 15th century has a more geometric trapezoidal hemline and construction. Is that definitive? Probably not, but it seems to be consistent with most of the images/artwork. I usually wear the pisan hem *under* the top edge of my breastplate and then the aventail over everything else.

[@hughmcdonald3039]

+Knyght Errant Thanks for your response Ian, and nice to see your pisane in the most recent breastplate video. My questions was less about design of collar (and I agree with you on that topic) more directed toward whether your opinion is that the mail collar was more typically a separate item or whether it is an integral part of the mail shirt? Cheers, Hugh

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Hugh McDonald Ah, gotcha. I lean toward it more commonly being worn as a separate piece of armor. The Tower of London inventories for example show lots pisanes listed along side all the other armors. Interestingly enough, the Tower Inventories *also* list some mail shirts *with collars* but not with the same frequency as they are listed separately. So it appears both may have been done in practice, but my impression is that separate pieces were more typical.

[@justicesmoore]

Quick question. If Mail is used to cover parts of armor that isn't covered by plate (In later armor sets), how was Mail worn on the legs? There should be a gap behind the knee just like there is on the inside of the elbow.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Sometimes mail voiders show up in illustrations and sculpture worn behind the knee, but it's not universal. On horseback the back of the knee isn't particularly vulnerable, but on foot sometimes it was defended with mail. It was likely sewn as a patch to the arming hose.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

On the subject of the protective qualities of mail, could two handed thrusts from spears, poleaxes or longswords compromise well-made links backed by good padding with any regularity? From the primary sources it seemed that it's quite common for even a couched lance strike from horseback to fail to penetrate well-made medieval mail, so how could one expect to do so with any degree of reliability with one's own muscular strength? Thanks!

[@KnyghtErrant]

+John Huang I'm sure they *could* compromise them, but I suspect the effectiveness of mail was a lot better than many modern tests suggest. Modern tests are usually done with vastly inferior mail, weird test parameters, bad textile armor substitutes etc, so I don't think they yield too much value or insight into how real mail performed. Until we start to use expensive, properly made drawn-wire mail, made from the good materials, and also similarly well made layered gambesons etc. it's all just speculation. Mail certainly wasn't proof against those kind of thrusts either, or there would have been no reason to transition to plate, so it had to be significantly less effective against certain attacks to warrant the necessity for the advancement in armor when the technology caught up.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

+Knyght Errant Thanks! When you have both the pisane and the aventailed bascinet on, did it constrict your ability to turn your head to the sides to any appreciable degree? I imagine two layers of mail and padding over the throat would provide a very good level of protection, but would make any movement of the head cumbersome, though not as restricting as a bevor or other solid plate throat defense. I also noticed in your earlier video that you did not wear an arming cap under your bascinet, did you just omit it for convenience? Thanks!

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

+Knyght Errant I have read in Tobias Capwell's description of English style armour from the battle of Agincourt that it was quite common for this particular armour style to include separate mail gussets to protect the back of the knee and the joint between the sabatons and the greaves. Have u seen any indication of these in the effigies? Also I have noticed that some depictions of Milanese suits of armour (including Toby Capwell's incidentally) showing A PAIR of mail skirts one on top the other worn underneath the tassets. Seems a bit much too me. Any idea why they would go to such lengths? Thanks

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

+John Huang Here is the image of Toby Capwell's Milanese suit: encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCHM9S4HLfPRvZ8M2xMAdPaXMIVDqEBc27lx7_B_yb0HC9vln5bpLRaQLZAw On a second thought it seemed that he was wearing a knee length mail hauberk (with the rider's slit) with another separate mail skirt on top of its groin/hip section.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+John Huang The mail collar causes minimal rotational restriction of the head. The way the aventail drapes over it doesn't really have too appreciable an effect either. It's definitely less restrictive than a great bascinet that can lock your helmet in a forward orientation. I don't wear an arming cap, I've never felt the need to do so. I could see its benefit if you're wearing a mail coif directly on your head, but in a well padded bascinet it seems unnecessary. Yes, you do see little patches of mail behind the knees over the ankles of some effigies. I think I talked about the ankle patches in either the sab or greave video, but here's an effigy where can plainly see mail in the sabaton / greave gap (effigiesandbrasses.com/media/cache/effigiesandbrasses.com/original/ralph_willington_s6_r127_large.jpg). Here's an image of the Black Prince effigy, behind his knee you can see the mail gusset protecting the inside of the joint (www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1600541822/).

[@jdzencelowcz]

Could one make riveted mail that actually protects using pre-made steel washers?

[@KnyghtErrant]

If you're going for a demi-riveted shirt (one row is riveted, the next is solid) then the washers could be used for the solid rows, but for the riveted rows you might run into trouble. Riveted mail rings need to overlap enough to drift the hole through which the rivet is set. In order to force overlap in a washer, you'd have to deform the ring out of round significantly.

[@jdzencelowcz]

Knyght Errant Good to know

[@tgjaedan]

Not sure if you still look back this far on video comments...but how long will the soft kit under armor generally last? Seems like the weight of the mail and the friction of movement would wear the cloth pretty quickly.

[@KnyghtErrant]

It's impossible to say exactly how long a well-made arming garment would have lasted a historical soldier since we just don't have the information, but a modernly made arming doublet of high-quality materials that replicate historical materials can really last quite a long time (on the order of years with regular use) and put up with a lot of abuse. High quality armor, and even mail, isn't too terribly rough on the underlying garments. Real historical mail tends to be pretty smooth and rounded (even 'flat' mail) compared to a lot of the stuff we use today, so it's not quite as rough on garments. That said, even the most dedicated reenactor or sport-combat fighter today doesn't wear the equipment as frequently as a historical soldier would have, so they may have gone through the under layers a lot faster. TL;DR, I don't know. :)

[@tgjaedan]

@@KnyghtErrant awesome, thanks for replying! And FYI, not much you do is TL;DR. Recently found your stuff and I've been binge watching like Friends leaving Netflix soon. Thank you for making content that makes KZbin worth watching. I get to live vicariously through guys like you as a person rather interested in a lot of this but not having the time or the money to go as far as having my own stuff.

[@smokerxluffy]

Assuming I had a butted mail shirt made out of 10mm inner diameter rings, would it make sense to buy more rings and "double" it up at specific locations or even completely? Disregarding the weight, of course.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Unless the wire is especially thick gauge, even doubled butted mail will fall apart on impact with most weapons. If you only plan to wear it for show, I don't think the extra labor would be worth the time.

[@smokerxluffy]

16 gauge probably wouldn't be worth it. Thank you for answering.

[@mikegrossberg8624]

I've made three hauberks using 16 gauge wire. It holds together well enough. If I was making armor intended for combat, however, I'd use at least 14 gauge

[@taylor_green_9]

Hi! I came from Skall's channel. I once read the term "plated mail" in an article about lamellar on Wikipedia. Is that a real thing? If so, what was it like in terms of protection and moblity?

[@KnyghtErrant]

Hi, firstly thanks for checking out the channel. "Plated mail" usually refers to a mail shirt (or other component) with integrated plate protection in certain strategic areas. The plates are pierced along the perimeter so the mail rings can attach directly to them. They are found in Central and Western Asian armor design, not something you'd see in Western European medieval armors. It's a nice compromise between the mobility of mail armor with the protective value of plate in certain key locations. A Western European complete plate harness would be far more protective, but not as mobile. Here are a few surviving examples of what could be classified as 'plated mail:' A Turkish or Iranian coat (c15th/c16th) with decorated integrated plates (check out the photos of the back too, lots of plates there) - www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22011 A Turkish of Iranian thigh armor - www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/32108 Nearly complete armors for both man and horse of plated mail construction - collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-36676.html A much later Turkish armor (c17th) with a slightly different design but similar construction - collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-1661.html

[@taylor_green_9]

Knyght Errant Thank you! I particularly like that last one; it has a certain Saint Seiya vibe to it

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

Would a gambeson designed to be worn specifically under mail ONLY be thicker/have more padding than your arming doublet? I imagine so

[@KnyghtErrant]

Not too much more. A lot of sources call for the thicker stout padding to be worn _over_ the mail, not necessarily under it.

[@calebburch7113]

What are the odds of nothing but a maille shirt (with the obvious addition of gauntlets, kettle hat, etc.) being worn as the primary source of armour for men of the Third Estate who were called to fight? I haven't been able to find any sources of them being worn alone during the 14th Century (more specifically around the Peasant's Revolt), but that's not to say they weren't. Would it have been considered a suitable replacement as a primary armour source for those who lacked the funds for full-plate during this period in time? Do you have any good examples of this, or would its use in that manner be purely conjectural?

[@KnyghtErrant]

In the summaries of the mail garments listed in the Tower of London Armoury Inventories, coats of mail number in the thousands well into the 1390s, Dr. Richardson suggests they were to be issued to lower grade troops. I think the odds are pretty high that the configuration of armor you suggest is perfectly appropriate for members of the third estate. I would also suggest the possibility of a stout padded armor as primary defense for the torso as well.

[@calebburch7113]

Thank you for the quick reply! I will admit, I'm still pretty new to 14th Century, my primary focus is 10th Century Danish, so I'm still learning a lot of the classes, etc. Just starting out, I certainly want to start small with something that's manageable and proper for the social status I'm aiming for. I already have a very nice mail shirt that was made for my Danish kit, which I was rather surprised to find out is nearly identical to what you're wearing here, anyway. It's pretty interesting how, despite the nearly 400-year difference, the shirt is virtually unchanged! Now the next question would be: I seem to recall the artistic reference you used in your video on gauntlets (I believe it was a depiction of the Peasant's Revolt), where the men were wearing Jupons, helmets and gauntlets. What sort of gauntlet would be, in your opinion, most proper for a lower-stature man of the period? Would they be the same overall hourglass design (albeit, a lot simpler than those seem with knightly harness)? Or something different altogether?

[@KnyghtErrant]

Depending on exactly when in the 14th century you're interested in focusing, I would consider one of the Visby find styles of gauntlets if you want to represent slightly older or less sophisticated equipment as a down-status individual.

[@calebburch7113]

Knyght Errant That’s actually what I was leaning toward. I’m aiming more for a 1370-1380’s time frame.

[@puckspirit2573]

I know that riveted mail shirt is extremely hard to make. Well, not necessarily hard, but definately very long, even when you start from bought wire, electicity to twist a spring, etc. I can't even imagine how much harder plate need to be to make in order to appear after riveted mail...

[@sandervanduren2779]

puck spirit it wasn’t that it was harder to make, but the fact that the technology to make such large high quality steel sheets to make the plate armor hadn’t yet been invented.

[@ariktaranis3016]

Is it true, that flat ring protects and absorb direct hits MUCH better than a round ring?

[@KnyghtErrant]

I don't know if you could say 'much' better, but the advantage of flat ring is that a flattened ring resists opening a lot more than a round ring, and it provides more surface area of coverage than a round ring of the same mass. There' a lot of other variables that go into how protective mail can be though.

[@ariktaranis3016]

Knyght Errant Thank you for your answer

[@Danik0301987]

how diffident would a steel of say your mail, would be different from a steel of a 13-14-15 century mail?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Kazakh Gamer The further you go back in time, the more likely the armor (mail or plate) was made of pure iron as opposed to steel. But the big difference is that period steel was made in a bloomery furnace and later a blast furnace. The bloom was then continually heated and hammered out into sheets or drawn into wire (in the case of mail). Modern steel is manufactured in perfectly uniform rolls and is perfectly consistent. Most modern mail is made of mild steel and the rings are punched out of sheets. Real historical mail was drawn as round wire. Even historical 'flat' ring mail was round wire and then bent into a ring, annealed and hammered to flatten it a bit. So not only is the steel structurally different (or iron in many cases) than modern materials for mail making, but even the mechanical way that it is made is very different.

[@Danik0301987]

+Knyght Errant Thanks, that's very interesting, haven't actually thought that mail was mostly made of iron, guess never stopped and thought about it really, even though after you just told that to me, it seems somewhat obvious:)

[@Tariei]

+Knyght Errant About the flat rings, just making sure I understand that detail: the mail is made from round links and after it is done its hammered few times to flatten it a bit and make it rest a little better?

[@KnyghtErrant]

Tariei Mail armor exists as both round ring and flattened ring. For the flattened ring variety, you take your round wire, form rings from it, then once you have the ring, you anneal it to soften it a bit, flatten it with a hammer a little, overlap the two ends of the rings and flatten them even more. Drift a hole through the overlapping ends, and then insert a rivet through the hole and squeeze the rivet with tongs to set it. There are different rivet shapes and styles that exist historically as well as well as different ring configurations (fully riveted, half-riveted and half solid rings etc). Some mail was then put through a heat-treatment or carburisation process to harden it after all of that as well. Flattening the rings gives you a few advantages. It makes the ring more resistent to bursting open when you hit it. It makes the weave of the mail denser. It probably gives you a larger surface for the rivet to be set through as well, which means you could potentially use a stronger rivet. The denser weave for a given ring size could potentially mean less rings for equivalent protection of a smaller round ring garment as well.

[@mikegrossberg8624]

I seem to recall that at one point links were punched out of a sheet of metal, thus forming solid links, which were then assembled using riveted links to join them

[@jacklederer6106]

mail shuffle! the more hair you have the more you shake

[@SINCHIROCA07]

Can you recommend a few places to purchase mail (I'm in the US). I'm on a budget ($700 US) but wanna get as close as possible to being historically accurate. I have a Great Helm and a few other stuff I purchased at a storefront (it was expensive and not very accurate) and still need a mail shirt and padded under garment. Have seen a few online store named allbeststuff.com and Kultofathena.com. Would any of these be good? I hear a lot of horror stories concerning online retailers who don't come through on their end so I'm trying to avoid that. Any help would be great! Thanks for all the info.

[@stevengood1812]

I don’t know if this it too late but, custom Chainmaille dot com is a good source

[@afterzanzibar]

@Knyght Errant can you start to put web links to historically accurate places to buy armor, please? Especially in your videos when you talk about what people get wrong and right about armor pieces? I have been shopping a lot from Medieval Collectibles and Kult of Athena but it can be hit or miss...

[@KnyghtErrant]

It's tricky, because most historically accurate modern reproductions need to be made on an individual commission basis directly from craftsmen, not retail stores with a web presence.

[@bobmilaplace3816]

So a mercenary with some means, have a kettle hat and mail shirt for most of European History? Does Titanium mail shirts exist today?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Bob MiLaplace Some mercenaries were actual very wealthy. Many of the 'Free Companies' of English mercenaries fighting in the Italian City States during the lulls in the Hundred Years War could afford full contemporary harness. But the common infantryman, which is maybe more of what you meant would likely be seen in a mail shirt or just padded armor with a kettle hat. Modern makers do make titanium mail. It's of course much lighter than steel but very strong. It's also correspondingly expensive.

[@santdhai]

+Bob MiLaplace The Bear Proof Suit in this picture, assets.huckberry.com/uploads/ProjectGrizzly.jpg , made of Titanium mail, but the links are not circular rings, they are specially formed. The suit can withstand buckshots.

[@shrekas2966]

funny because mercenaries wete professionals. that makes them more experienced than mobility. at 15th century mercenaries were more expensive than soldiers in my country.

[@duchessskye4072]

Shrekas 2 even if that were the case they generally just wouldn't get paid enough to afford the same quality of armor as a knight would.

[@mikegrossberg8624]

"Shark suits", I believe, are constructed of titanium. Aside from the protection value, they also have the benefit of not rusting

[@martinan22]

Is it true that mail armor disapeared from Britan when the Romans left and did not re appear until the 11th century?

[@martshearer498]

False. An iron mail shirt with copper rivets was found in the Sutton Hoo burial from the 7th century. Similarly the Coppergate helm from York has a mail neck guard

[@martinan22]

@@martshearer498 There has been several smaller pieces of mail found, used as parts of helmets. It is not that the Anglo Saxons did not know the tech, they seemed just not to have used it. The Sutton Hoo finds are problematic because of their extreme similarity to finds in Scandinavia. But without the Sutton Hoo, the lack of chain mail in depictions, poetry and graves is extreme. If you compare it to the smaller population in Scandinavia the chain mail is much more prevalent in poetry and a few chain mails have been found from graves.

[@dynamicworlds1]

4:15 No rigid shoulder protection? Why? Basic shoulder protection isn't too hard (many armor types have it as the only part of the arm armored) and pretty important. I'd sooner forgo plate on my elbows, back, feet, face, etc One heavy strike to the shoulder and there goes my use of that arm...sure the mail would likely hold, but the bones making up that joint are a different matter entirely. Does anyone know what they might have been thinking? Seems ridiculous to have articulated plate all over the body but skip the shoulders.

[@KnyghtErrant]

This is not universal, or absolute, it's just one example of a style commonly seen in late 14th century Italy. It seems that late 14th c Italian arm harness designs, even when they did feature rigid shoulder defense, tended to favor much lighter protection than say the English style. It's also frequently depicted as just a small shoulder cop. I'm sure there was a good tactical reason for Italian style warfare to favor lighter shoulder protection (read as more arm mobility) than the English who's tactical preference was to fight dismounted.

[@dynamicworlds1]

Knyght Errant Not saying it was universal or anything, just that it doesn't make any sense to me. Even in terms of arm mobility, it doesn't make much sense, since leverage makes it effectively the lightest piece of arm protection. Just baffled at the whole thing, especially since it was common and I can't see a reason not to have it.

[@KnyghtErrant]

It's not a weight problem that restricts mobility, it's the structure of the armor itself that restricts mobility. Even though my shoulder protection is very well articulated, it is still less mobile than having no plate armor there. A small shoulder cop wouldn't really affect mobility all that much (and can be hiding under those depictions of mail covered shoulders) depending on its size, but any spaulder with lames will begin to reduce some overhead movement.

[@charliejackson5096]

I like to see more horse armor!

[@ricocori2447]

537-0 boom... the amount of non-haters in this channels is off the hook...

[@patrickmccurry1563]

Up to 1k+-0 now. Double boom...

[@theblancmange1265]

1994 to 2

[@DzsusDzaKK]

didn't they wear full mail shirts under plate armour? 2:51

[@KnyghtErrant]

The image at 2:51 predates plate armor by quite some time. Were you asking about a different image? Either way, a full mail shirt is only necessary under plate armor if the plate armor doesn't provide enough coverage. I wear a full shirt because I wear no back plate. In a full cuirass for example, you can wear sleeves and a skirt of mail without the need for a full shirt, but you always have that option. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6bXc6Ctf6iJarM

[@moonlightning8269]

What about the femail shirt

[@CoffeeSnep]

Why was plate mail created after chainmail? I'm no blacksmith but it seems like it would be easier to make a solid plate of metal then countless rings of it that weave together in a very specific manner.

[@KnyghtErrant]

To make plate armor, you need a very large piece of high quality steel or iron (size dependent on the individual component). To make that, you need very good, specialized smiths with a high skill level and the equipment to pull it off consistently. It took a lot of time to develop the techniques and technology to process the raw material into something usable for the manufacture of plate armor. Then it's not a matter of just hammering it into a nice flat plate, it needs to be very carefully shaped to the body of the wearer, thick in the right places, yet entirely movable when worn and attached to the other pieces. It's also very easy to ruin a piece if the smith doesn't know what they're doing. Mail on the other hand just doesn't need all the same technology and highly skilled craftsmen to yield a usable armor. The raw material requirements are less as well. Once you have a bit of iron drawn into wire, the rest of the process is mostly a matter of time rather than one of highly specialized skill (there are areas in making *good* mail that require high skill through), and labor was cheap in the Middle Ages (especially before the Black Death). I could teach a person off the street to start the rudimentary process of making mail, but even today with our technically advanced society it requires years and years of practice to make decent plate armor.

[@CoffeeSnep]

Knyght Errant Thanks! I had been pondering that for quite some time now.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

When large plates get cheaper we see alot of crude plate armour like the Visby battle finds, theres crude but practicable armours.

[@mikegrossberg8624]

You can cut down the time needed to produce maille simply by using a production line; one man would do nothing but turn wire into a coil, another man would cut the links, the next man would flatten them, the next would punch the rivet holes while another did nothing but cut rivets. Then the whole mess would go to the actual maille maker. HE would be the only one who needed to have any skills

[@gabrielthomsen3703]

Good video. Why shouldn't we call it chain mail?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Gabriel Thomsen Chain Mail is a definitively modern term. In context it was simply referred to as mail. It's just a re-enactor pet-peeve, meant as a joke.

[@owensson924]

+Gabriel Thomsen I'd also add that the term "chain mail" is a bit of a oxymoron in and of itself, as mail is derived from the Latin word macula, essentially meaning "mesh" so your basically saying "chain mesh" which makes no sense. But Ian is right, its more of a joke than anything.

[@KnyghtErrant]

I'm going to disagree with you on that. Medieval English-speakers referred to it as 'mail' in English. Just like the Anglicized versions of lots of originally French words, like 'helmet, bascinet, armet etc...' which are intended to be spoken with a hard 't' in English as demonstrated by Middle English rhyming poems and other accounts. The words were originally French, but made the jump to English very early on.

[@KnyghtErrant]

I don't follow your reasoning. You're implying that because English speakers may have been unaware of the Latin root of the word that they weren't using an English word. Once the word was incorporated directly into Middle English via Anglo-Norman French (which was spoken in England after 1066 anyway, especially by the upper class) it became the English word for the armor made of metal rings regardless of whether they knew it derived from the Latin word macula. It was just as English as every other word that originally came from another language. The word 'mail' is still defined in modern English dictionaries as the armor made of interwoven metal rings as it has been known in English for at least 600+ years. The real reason 'chainmail' is recognizable to modern English speakers is because it slipped its way into modern English culture in the 19th century thanks to Victorian historians, and it stuck, along with all of its cousin erroneous terms like 'plate-mail, 'splint-mail.' Then those terms got revived and really cemented into the modern lexicon thanks to D&D and gaming in general. So in Modern English, yes, only people who are into history and linguistics are aware of 'chainmail' being a made up term, but in period, English speakers immediately knew that 'mail' was the English word for the armor made of woven interlocked metal rings regardless of its French origins.

[@jmaniere]

Chain mail in europe coming from ancient Celts about the 3rd century BC (galic invasion of rome ) then copied by early romain who never missed a good idea simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_mail en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brennus

[@whowantsabighug]

In terms of medievally weapons and armour stuff, the only thing cooler than mail is swords. Swords are cooler than everything.

[@kyleklein8746]

Why 1 dislike?

[@markreichman5922]

I noticed you always have a disclaimer that you are not an expert in each video. How many people are making videos on KZbin with physical examples of armor and historic imagery with well spoken research. You are an expert and a teacher. I would just stop saying that and make more videos. Good job.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Thank you. I just think it's important for people to know that I hold no credentials in the academic history world and can't hold a candle to the level of knowledge expressed by _genuine_ experts, the likes of Dr. Toby Capwell et. al. There are enough hosts on KZbin who by virtue of having a sizable platform are assumed to be 'experts' or are thought to be more knowledgeable than they really are, that I want to be doubly sure that I am not contributing to misinformation by letting people think I'm something I'm not. I speak only with the authority of an enthusiastic but amateur student of this material, not a professional. Either way, I appreciate the sentiment very much.

[@DwarfLordAirsoft]

Why would you not call it "chain mail"? I dont anyway unless someone has no concept of what it is, in which case chain mail is the part they recognize.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Hanaar Steelhand Chainmail is a modernly invented term that caught hold in pop culture. The armor made of rings has always been known to the people wearing it as 'mail' getting to English through the Old French 'maille' deriving from the word 'macula' in Latin for 'mesh.' It's not really a big deal, but it's like someone totally unfamiliar with firearms calling a magazine a 'clip' which can cause many a firearms enthusiast to cringe. :) In historical circles, you'd probably get weird looks if you insisted on calling it chainmail.

[@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723]

Butted mail was first convinced by the celts & later adopted by both the Thracian Dacian, one of which is the best presserved version of it was first discored here in Romania, as well as the Greeks & the Romans, the latter changing the design flow of it to incorporate their pattern of the lorica segmentata thus was born the lorica hamata, the limited mail was said to have appeared during the time of the rise of the actual Roman Empire with Augustus, as during this time lorica hamata was dominant form of armor, mind you getting an exact time date is a bit hard some I am using moments in history a reference, more reinforced variations of this armor are seen among the Germanic nations, the saxons, franks, vandals, lombards, at the time who were often allies of the Roman Empire during the later years, thus they addopted it in to their own, designs would have varied based around crafting techniques & taste I suppose. More proper mail armor, as the ones we know them today, chainmail coats or Hauberks was dated around the time of X & XI century being highly recognized in the XI, XII & XIII century via the Bayeux Tapestry & other church frescos, all of which were riveted but I am not sure if they were also flatted as well, that alludes me. Funny enough Bilbo's Mithril Shirt is riveted chainmail hauberk, granted it is way to op! :D Still that is why I used it in The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion, But it is ony of my favorite tipes of armor especially the Hauberks

[@hunterthomas8579]

I bet that pulls the shit out of your hair, I bet it helps to be bald lol

[@brumalogresteer4124]

come on, don't use the term "dark ages".😒

[@KnyghtErrant]

If I say Early Middle Ages, I will lose a bunch of people who don't know understand when I'm referring to. I have to keep that in mind when I use terminology.

[@kamhyde40]

In an era when it was common to ban women entering a church (on the rag) or after childbirth seems pretty dark to me. :The rhetoric against women's presumed ritual impurity was continued by theologians in the Middle Ages. “Women are not allowed to visit a church during menstruation or after the birth of a child. For a woman is an animal that menstruates. Through touching her blood fruits will fail to get ripe. Mustard degenerates, grass dries up and trees lose their fruit before time. Iron gets rusted and the air becomes dark. When dogs eat it, they acquire rabies” Paucapalea, Summa, Dist. 5, pr. § 1 v.

[@RockerMarcee96]

Concordia discordantium canonum isn't even an early middle ages collection of laws. Also it has been never accepted as law, so no. Also that sounds something that is either in Leviticus or Exodus, but then Jesus said he came to abolish the law of the jews, therefore it shouldn't apply.

[@hellothere507]

Early Middle Ages in Western Europe is "darker" than the rest of the world

[@WickedNPC]

These practises were common in other time periods as well. Some of it is still practised today.

[@divanavitch]

I got my ear ring caught taking my mail off once. Ended up lying on the ground till my wife could detach it. Lol