The Many Origins of Tolkien's Orcs - Elves, Men, & Morgoth

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Orc Army - Jan Pospíšil
The First Elves, Cuivienyarna - Alystraea
origin of the orcs - turnermohan
Barad-dur - Lída_Holubová
Orcs - merlkir
Melkor - Anna_Kulisz
lotr-orc-camp
And_Morgoth_came - Jenny_Dolfen
Misty_Mountains_Orc_1 - Olanda_Fong-Surdenas
Aule Crafting the Dwarves - Peet
orcs - Angus McBride
orcs-v3 - sergio-artigas
Orc Army - Eric Fraser
Professor Tolkien - Kinko White
the_might__of_morgoth - dracarysdrekkar
Awakening_of_the_Elves - Anna_Kulisz
Misty_Mountain_Orc_2 - Olanda_Fong-Surdenas
Orc_Scout_and_Carrion_Seeker - Olanda_Fong-Surdenas
Uruk_Heads - The_White_Council
ainur__children_of_iluvatar - nahar
Eru_Iluvatar - Janka_Latečková
Aule_the_Destroyer - Ted Nasmith
Aule - RalphDamiani
Aule_and_the_Seven_Fathers - Ted Nasmith
fathers_of_the_dwarves - steamey
Orc warrior - Elrodimus Flash
Eru and the Gods Singing the First Song of Creation - Kip Rasmussen
The Uruk-hai - John Howe
Morgoth - Ralph Damiani
green elves - Turner Mohan
Angband - John Howe
turgon - alystraea art
Beren and Luthien flee Angband - Pete Amachree
early orcs - Turner Mohan
orc berserker - WETA
Orcs and Uruks - Abe Papakhian
Melkor - Anna Kulisz
fingolfin and morgoth - aegeri
The vilest deed of Melkor - Anna Kulisz
Gorbag and Shagrat - Alan Lee
orcs_debate__color - turnermohan
Melkor and the Silmarils - Sara M. Morello
beserker orc - WETA
orc warrior = sergio artigas
Turner Mohan - orc fighting lion
orc berserker - WETA
The Orc-Host is Ambushed in Brethil - Ted Nasmith
Beren finds the orcs - Andrea Piparo
goblin with huge head - merlkir
Battle of the Five Armies - Alan Lee
Orc Captain - John Howe
morgoth - dracarysdrekkar7
Orcs fled before his face - Jenny Dolfen
Orcs of the Red Eye - John Howe
Half-orc - Jan Pospíšil
Dunlendings - John Howe
Men of Dunland - Turner Mohan
orc - Clemence Morisseau
Uruk-hai - Tuuliky
Saruman The Ringmaker - Ralph Damiani
Fighting Uruk-hai - Jan Pospisil
Uruk-hai War Chief - The White Council
sauron army - weta
morgoth chained - Kip Rasmussen
Morgoth and Fingolfin - YidanYuan
Moria Orcs - John Howe
Orc - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Eru Iluvatar (and the Ainur) - Šárka Škorpíková
Orc at Isengard - Elrodimus Flash
Uruk Pikemen - John Howe
In Mordor - John Howe
Orcs - Turner Mohan
orc - WETA
orcs - sergio artigas
orc berserker - weta
The Uruk-hai - Anke Eissmann
The Halls of Mandos - Ralph Damiani
Moria Orc - John Howe
Uruk-Warrior-and-Orc-Tracker - Alan-Lee
young_orc_fighting_scorpion - turnermohan
Bilbo_and_the_Eagles - Ted Nasmith
now_down_there_swooped_Thorondor_the_King_of_Eagles - Alan_Lee
beren__luthien_and_huan - steamey
Tolkien, the Professor - Kinko White
orcs-anatomy-page - sergio-artigas
Orc at Black Gate - Elrodimus Flash
In the land of Mordor - Olanda Fong-Surdenas
the vicious goblins - artigas
Orc - John Howe
orc faces - Turner Mohan
Morgoth Victorious - Turner Mohan
Uruk with War Hammer - John Howe
Morgoth - ckgoksoy
Goblin Gate - Ted Nasmith
Death of Feanor - Jenny Dolfen
death of Miriel - Anna Kulisz
orc sketch - merlkir
Orc Swordsman - John Howe
Mandos - Ralph Damiani
#orcs #lordoftherings #tolkien

[@NerdoftheRings]

ICYMI: check out my interview with Oscar-winning writer of LOTR, Philippa Boyens! We chat about the NEW LOTR film: War of the Rohirrim! Philippa Boyens talks War of the Rohirrim! First chat with writers of new LOTR film! kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpmngnmlaJeKe5I

[@AskMia411]

What are your thoughts on the “What if Boromir lived “ scenario? Boromir is injured but survives Amon Hen, joins the three hunters in their pursuit of merry and Pippin. I know it’s probably not something Tolkien considered, like the Gollum repenting video, but I think it could make a cool video regardless. How might Boromir change the rest of the story? How is Faramir’s meeting with Frodo and Sam different? How does Denathor change in the siege of Minas Tirith now that he isn’t as fractured by Boromir’s death? Does he survive at that point? How does Denathor react to Boromir being in favor of Aragorn becoming king? I could go on, but I think it could make a very interesting and fun video!

[@NekeLC2480]

I did watch! It was fun. I hope it is a good movie. I had some trepidations for the insinuation at 1:04:17 in that video. I hope they can just stick to the Tolkien written work. If they want to play with their own ideas, thats cool, that is writing, but if they want to adapt someone elses work, they need to do it faithfully. Or make their own.

[@platynowa]

Tolkien was a catholic, and for them, only humans have souls.

[@robpersons7172]

If Morgoth taught the Orcs speech, there must have been restaurants in Utumno, or else how would they have know what a "menu" is?

[@knines4280]

I understand your argument. Unfortunately, it comes from the movie..... It's a Jackson contribution..... The fight happens, but "meat is back on the menu." Isn't said 😕.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Those Orcs lived thousands of years after the fall of Morgoth and had much more interaction with Man cultures.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

​@@knines4280 Even if it had been in the book, LotR takes place like 7000+ years after the fall of Morgoth, right? And we're explicitly shown that Saruman's Orcs were mingled with Men. Even Mordor Orcs mingled with Men more than any Morgoth Orcs had. This video literally describes how the Uruk-hai are part Man. Why *wouldn't* an Uruk know what a menu is?

[@knines4280]

@@Richard_Nickerson well, a "menu" suggests a bit of civility refinement...... I doubt orcs wore ties😎.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@knines4280 Menus don't imply modern dress attire whatsoever.

[@gradius12]

Shoutout to Debbie keeping this channel running. She's a real one.

[@TF-vb9us]

Hail, Debbie 🫡

[@zaxmaxlax]

For me is Tomdabombadil, rabbi rob thomas and the dark haired one

[@shade9387]

Is this voice the guy from Why files?

[@samadams9581]

Andddd debbie

[@ErnestMaupin-j7d]

This is really interesting how his catholic theology affected his views of the orcs. Catholics typically reject the Calvinist views of predestination. A Calvinist wouldn’t have much conflict with the idea of some souls being destined for destruction and not redemption/salvation. Catholics typically reject that and believe all souls have potential for redemption/salvation. It’s cool to see how it plays into the story.

[@benjaminagnew5361]

I think the Calvinist view is a little misrepresented in this respect (so that what you have said is best understood by hyper-Calvinist). The creature having Fea can surely be likened to the image of God in theology. As such, it's ordaination is distinct. Such, the "vessel made for destruction", is not up to Melkor and his actions but to Eru himself. And the Orcs are not intrinsically cut off from "salvation", whatever that fundamentally means in Tolkien's Middle Earth. This is why I (from the a Calvinist view) have always had trouble with the orcs origin. Also... Main stream Catholicism is pretty close to Calvinism in regard to ordination. It's really only Jesuit Molonism that made the big difference.

[@ErnestMaupin-j7d]

@@benjaminagnew5361 Great discussion! I agree that Eru would be the driving force behind destiny in that world. It could be that the elves that failed to respond to the call of the valar were destined by Eru to become the orcs and become vessels for his wrath and destruction. I believe there is strong support for double predestination in the bible and early church fathers (Augustine seemed to endorse double predestination even thought some catholic and orthodox theologians disagree). My background is as a reformed confessional Anglican. I lean in favor of four of the five points of Calvinism. I am not sure I believe in limited atonement but the others have strong arguments in scripture.

[@josephwalkowski]

​@@ErnestMaupin-j7d I ask this with a genuine desire to seek what could be said to be the Truth of God: Where, in any of Augustine's works, did he even implicitly aver the concept of double predestination? As a pitiful scholar of pre-8th-century Patristics, I have not read any Church Father who held that one's eternal damnation was outside of their control. Theodoret can be questionable, Origen can be off on certain points (bless him), and until the censured Gottschalk of Orbais in the 800s (I believe) do we see such a teaching take hold of the "rudibus", or "uninstructed"-as termed by Augustine and Martin of Braga. Either way, would you point me to the work wherein I could find such a claim? Even in his Retractiones, I've found nothing that could point to such an idea. Thank you, dear friend.

[@justindenlinger6304]

@@ErnestMaupin-j7d Augustine isn’t really early Church, he’s post council of Nicaea. And he was the inlet for much satanic doctrine into what became Catholicism (as distinct from pure Christianity).

[@josephwalkowski]

@@justindenlinger6304 Do you have any examples, my friend?

[@tboyer86]

I swear every time I see a new video I think to myself "man he must be running out of topics". And every time I am completely humbled by how amazing these videos are. Great job.

[@brandonscott4808]

I think Morgoth corrupting elves into orcs makes more sense lore wise. By the time Sauron was building up power for himself, he most likely used humans to turn into Orcs since there weren't that many Elves in the 2nd and 3rd Age. There's also a possibility that other fallen Maia who were in league with Morgoth could have taken the form of an orc but looked more demonic and beastly than your typical average orc, which could explain why some of the orcs that resided in Goblin Town could have been the offspring of those orcs given their description of their features in The Hobbit.

[@pabloantoniomendozamartine6046]

I could be wrong, but I believe that in Morgoth’s Ring there is an essay where Tolkien suggests that orcs were descendants of lesser maiar’s who, perhaps after taking monstrous forms, mated with beasts (possibly wolves). Implying that orcs were created after a long and brutal process of breeding and interbreeding with animals, then elves and then men.

[@CartoonHero1986]

Anyone else now have a mental image of a special wing in the house of Mandos where the broken souls go like some sort of mental ward filled with soft rooms? "It's going to be okay, you're okay; no one can hurt you in here"

[@imogencory9591]

This just makes me want to cry, because if we're going with the belief that Orcs are imprison, tortured and corrupted elves, then their soul/Fae would still remain as it was, an Eldar's Fae, and so when in the first age an Orc is slain their soul would go to the halls of Mandos and would have to live with the memories and pain they've endured an deblt for the rest of their immortal lives.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

I like the idea of Morgoth driving the fëa out of Elves. It fits the "corrupted Elves" description, and fixes Tolkien's personal issues with his own concept.

[@MarcinWaach]

My head canon is that Morgoth corupted chimps into orcs. Entertain this idea: - chimps are similar in appearance to Elves - chimps are naturaly agressive so Morgoth's power only enhanced it - chimps are inteligent so he enhanced sligthly their inteligece and gave them abillity to speak I don't think that any kind of ape or monkey was ever mentioned in Tolkien's writing but keep in mind that, in universe, books are writen by people and scholars from Westernlands of Middle Earth and apes would live around Far Harad or somewhere else in the south. I think it's a fun idea that I wanted to share. Sorry for bad english, it's not my first language

[@MerryMohProductions]

"Hundreds of long ladders were lifted up. Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South." -Helms Deep, The Two Towers

[@connor5976]

You killed this one. It’s been a while since I’ve heard a truly new and also lore based take. Incredibly interesting

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Regardless of how they were created, one thing is for certain: they are one of the most tragic races in fantasy. Created by a dark lord for the sole purpose of destruction and killing, with no chance of ever being anything else. Evil they might be, but it's not like they were ever given a choice.

[@AesirUnlimited]

Couldn’t the same be said of Melkor? Eru made him to be the way that he is. If Melkor is evil incarnate, wouldn’t the one responsible for his creation be equally evil?

[@anactaneustheeleventh2542]

The Interview with P. Boyens was special, liked to hear her talk more about middle earth. I geeked out a little too as a fellow writer, would like to hear P. Jackson and P. Boyens on an interview themselves if they could go a little deeper into their thinking or a commentary about the show TROP (Rings of Power) and what they thought about it. Also would like if you (nerd of the rings) could do a video on Sauron’s eastern and southern travels. And how he corrupted the easterlings and southern men. Liked this one as well!!!

[@waldo5017]

One interesting thing to note is that Shagrat and Gorbag discuss freedom and independence from Sauron in the books. This maybe throws a spanner in the works of them being animalistic beings, possibly showing orcs to have some degree of free-thought and desire for independence. Are the orcs in this conversation just 'parroting' their master's thoughts? Or are these thoughts of their own? If they have agency, does that imply they have souls and by extension free-will? It's a convoluted question, the issue of free-will with regards to Orcs is something Tolkien grappled with but never provided an answer for in his lifetime unfortunately.

[@backwashjoe7864]

Agreed.

[@mrs.manrique7411]

I think the way the orcs might be “parroting” Sauron is that Sauron does not want to be under the control of the Valar or Eru Illuvatar, so the orcs speak the same way about their masters.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Definitely seems to fit with parroting Morgoth and/or Sauron

[@MrBrendofc]

I'm so happy that discovered that KZbin Channel now, during my doctorate research. I'm studying the geography of fantasy worlds comparing Brazil and USA production of maps in books, and Tolkien's work is the main reference to every fantasy author. NoR helps me a lot to not feel alone while doing my writing

[@Eowyn3Pride]

So cool!!!😀❤️🍻

[@durinseventh8892]

Loved this. I understand why it's so hard to explain the origin of Orcs. In Tolkien's own faith humans are more like Orcs than Men: we were like Elves in not knowing evil nor being corrupted by the Evil One/Great Deceiver. Now we all are and our spirit (Faea) can shrivel to impotence (quenched!) with repeat evil deeds/thoughts/desires/etc. And without Divine Intervention/a Savior we will remain orcish because our own spirits lack the power to change our bodies for Good. That's what Orcs don't have in Arda: Divine Intervention. It begs the question for me if Orc Faea get a 2nd chance (because they were literally born evil) by Mandos allowing them to be reincarnated. 🤔

[@davidfwooldridge3430]

I don’t think the Orcs being beasts and not intelligent beings is born out in the text. They didn’t imitate like parrots; they talked about stuff and even had a culture. The Goblins of the Misty Mountains literally had a theme song in the Hobbit they sang when they hauled Thorin’s company down to Goblintown. Animals don’t do that. I think this is, unfortunately, an example of Tolkien painting himself into a corner. Weirdly enough, one of the few really good things about Rings of Power was that it actually picked at this a bit; orcs are intelligent beings who want things and don’t like being a slave army.

[@elphiegleason3899]

This is one of the best Tolkien channels on KZbin I’ve been watching your stuff a hell of a long time When in times of trouble Tolkien mellows me out

[@TarMody]

The idea that orcs are derived from elves adds more depth to the mythology, but raises many questions: 1) Are they still immortal? 2) When they die, do their souls go to the Halls of Mandos? 3) How does the phenomenon of reincarnation work? 4) Is the phenomenon of fading still valid for them? 5) Is it possible to recycle them? Since the metaphysical infrastructure of this idea was not sufficiently constructed by Tolkien, it will always receive criticism from these points.

[@rrrAustraliausvids93]

I love your channel dude. It honestly is a work of art and you should be so proud of what you have created. I am sure it is getting hard to keep making new videos but I think you should dive deeper into the what if scenarios more and flesh them out more, maybe go back and revisit some of your old ones because I think about them all the time haha. Keep it up mate!

[@Jane0Mills]

This is such a fascinating, if chilling, topic, especially when considered with the complexities behind Tolkien's faith and lore. Thank you for covering this topic and summarising its evolution.

[@Arphemius]

I don't think it's such an inconceivable idea that orcs have their own afterlife, just like elves and men. That Iluvatar provides for them and gives their corrupted souls a chance to heal, separate from the others. You already have different afterlives for men and elves, why not have a third? That might explain why their souls don't reside in the halls of Mandos.

[@agentspaniel4428]

In short, no one really knows, not even Tolkien himself

[@em333]

Which speaks to the beauty of Tolkien's world building.

[@KuK137]

@@em333 No, to its stupidity. Tolkien ruined his books with contradictory fundie voodoo, he was so close to realizing things indoctrinated into him in childhood were complete nonsense no amount of rationalizing and tweaking will ever fix, too bad he never made that last step and realized how dumb he was in doing so...

[@sohamkar1846]

May be Adar knew. In the Amazon web series.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Which is just realistic, really. We don't have all the answers in real life either.

[@nostalgicdouchebag1912]

This is one of the aspects I don't like being left unknown

[@ajfarson]

I have my doubts that Tolkein would embraced the concept of the body and soul (and mind) as divisible things and not part of a whole person. That is called Body-spirit dualism and was/is considered heresy in the Christian faith. While his fiction wasn't a direct alagory of his faith, I think he would avoid such things in his writings. Maybe not. I tend to lean toward a corrupted elf mentally twisted and driven to utter insanity. Broken to such a degree that the only thing that matters to them is that they are no longer tormented by their master. They will do anything to avoid this torment. That being could potentially find redemption, though unlikely. This is because they still possess a soul. Great video, as always. Thank you.

[@Odiseusthelegend]

I’ve been watching bong your vids forever and I love them you really put Tolkiens world into light!!!!!!!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@mixmaster2269]

I think it’s safe to say that if they were created from elves, and orcs do have souls like the other Children of Illuvatar then, like Gollum, while there’s little hope for them to redeem themselves, that doesn’t mean there’s no hope at all. That said, in a combination of nature and nurture, their cruel lifestyle and upbringing feeds whatever dark predispositions they have so they supersede whatever inherent goodness they also possess.

[@DashsChannel]

05:12 This is why I love Tolkien's works. Evil must be struck down and purged immediately and without inflicting suffering. This narrative and that of the Jedi in Star Wars were the heroic ideals I grew up with. It's really sad how in the 21st century we got so many twisted and depraved heroes (IE, Jack Bauer from "24") who revel in torturing and doing horrific things in the name of "good," apparently okay as long as they are doing it, not the villains. Failing to see that such acts are inherently and irredeemably evil. If a hero stoops to the villain's level, then that is a flaw or a mistake made, often understandably, in the throes of battle, not something to be celebrated and portrayed as good and righteous.

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

A very Different episode. Surreal and Philosophical ❤

[@Dr_Cole]

Excellent summary of the various theories. The notion from The Silmarilian never sat right with me but I could not explicate the reason(s). The last theory seems to capture both the personas of orcs and the evil of Melkor most. As you’ve noted, the theory is horrific in that the soul is trapped inside but seems like an apt representation of their behaviors and amalgamation of the discussions throughout the ages.

[@michaelkaduck1915]

Y'know...in a way, Morgoth did get what he wanted...life he could twist solely to serve him. And he'd make them unable to escape his control, even if they desperately wanted to. Evil is not born...it is made.

[@procrastinator9]

When mentioning beasts, I cannot help but to think of dogs. My dog. A beast to be sure. Carelessly vicious towards a squirrel or a mouse. Driven by instinct. But noble in her loyalty and acute in her empathy. A lover of life. And as she shed this mortal coil accompanied by my tears and gratitude, I refuse to believe that she lacks a spirit with whom I will be reunited when my time comes. Do not let the thought of beasts be sloughed off so easily in an anthropocentric theology. I will be with her again.

[@Alduinswall]

I love how tolkien invented the orcs and have become so popular that they are in almost all of the most popular fantasy series

[@dominicadrean2160]

I got the Feeling if he was alive people would probably have to ask him for permission to use them in their fantasy worlds since he created them they have to pay him to use them in their fantasy worlds

[@valentinkambushev4968]

To be honest, most modern orcs have very little in common with Tolkien's orcs. They are so different nowadays that they are orc only in name.

[@Bigjohn2121]

They have some pretty similar monsters with similar names from Latin and European mythology.

[@ryankwon8785]

The orcs in media, like World of Warcraft, are redeemable and are natural beings. Tolkien’s orcs (goblins) are near-irredeemable and unnatural creatures. In Warcraft, Thrall (Go'el) is the epitome of Orc redemption for the war crimes committed during the First War and the Second War on Azeroth.

[@apokatastasian2831]

​@@ryankwon8785Based Tolkein

[@Hrothlac1]

To me it seems to come full circle: If the orcs have no fea and were akin to animals could morgoth have not just made them from rocks as Tolkein originally planned?

[@MagicScientist]

I wonder if the idea of the body and soul being separate intelligences/entities comes in to play with Gollum and Smeagol - Gollum representing the corrupted body, and Smeagol the tormented soul. Perhaps they are a window in to the middle of this corruptive process for hobbits. Orcs having no souls and needing a dark lord to command them helps with explaining why Melkor and Sauron are load bearing bosses for their orcish armies

[@benjaminallen3371]

Huan might not have a rational soul but he might have an _irrational_ one, because he is a dog. This irrationality is why we love dogs.🙂 Tolkien's later characterization of Orcs as soulless seemingly contradicts their portrayal in _The Lord of the Rings._ I keep thinking of the dialogue between the tracker and the big orc in _The Return of the King,_ and Gorbag and Shagrat at the end of _The Two Towers_. In both instances there is subversive talk, which would be inconceivable if Orcs were unthinking beings.

[@pdxoneway]

One of my favorite topics

[@arnebenne]

You have such a dedicated KZbin channel, Matt Damon. Good job on getting millions of hits

[@aaronsherwin6903]

tokien was really deep with the social commentary. gotta love it

[@paladinponyt1556]

My own theory about the Orcs come from the idea that the first of them were Elves but forced into a new form. We know that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch King had some kind of power over souls and I believe this is the key to the Orcs creation. Morgoth captured some of the Elves and experimented on their bodies and spirits, after learning how easy it was to reshape their souls and turn them evil, Morgoth removed the Elves souls and put them into new bodies. I think he might have used a type of primate, because Orcs have a lot of ape-like features. This is likely because we know that souls can be put into other things. Sauron made werewolves by use evil spirits and the Barrow-wights are dead bodies with evil souls inside them. We also have the Silent-Watchers which are statues housing evil souls. This idea make since to me, because it uses things that Tolkien himself write down in the books and it explained why the Orcs are so animal-like. Again this is just my theory, so I could be wrong.

[@Eatbutternow]

I prefer a possibility for orc redemption over being fully evil. To me that seems to fit better in the world Tolkien created.

[@metatronblack]

What culture do the Orcs represent in real life?

[@tevildo45]

Southern English

[@erichtomanek4739]

So let's form a Fellowship and go in search of the Lost Writings of the Orcs!

[@ChiChiLand299]

You kind of also could think of them as simply living machines, they move and have programs that allow them to think and reason but they do not have souls for they are machines of flesh and blood

[@AMRosa10]

The back and forth on the origin of the orcs could also be a conceit by Tolkien, in the sense that he frames his work on the legendarium as that of a translator of found works from the distant past, where there may be conflicting documentary evidence for multiple origin stories. So, if he "found" multiple conflicting accounts, then simply translated them, then put forward the one that had the most supporting "evidence" as the most likely "canonical" story, he could then go back and revisit the other origin tales and intellectually debate the merits or drawbacks of each.

[@morrgash]

Oh i feel the thirst for a new Middle Earth game, thank you for the video, great quality as always 😊

[@gagaplex]

I prefer the version with them as corrupted Elves. The Orcish souls will be redeemed at the end of the world at last, because no ensouled being beyond ultimate redemption to Eru.

[@Hundredyacrewoods]

I think the last option is the best origin for the Orks (followed closely by the classic Elves version) However I would like to say that his opinion of animals not having souls makes me very uncomfortable and I highly doubt he had any pets.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Agree. As a dog owner, I can assure you that animals do have soles and different personalities.

[@rogueascendant6611]

I prefer the idea of Orcs being Elves once that were corrupted by Melkor in the name of mockery. But also does not dissuade the idea that the Dark Lord used 'terror' to get rid of Fea from within. So that he can create his army bend to his absolute will.

[@knines4280]

One needs only to look at Smeagol...... The will of Sauron......... & The Ring.......

[@bilbo1108]

Eye opener of an episode. Trapped souls in evil bodies is terrifying and shows the darker thoughts Tolkien may have carried from his time in WW1. Never a poor video dude!!

[@Chris-bv4ko]

Potentially, Morgoth could have just corrupted a few elves and then bred them with some sort of ape like animal species to get orcs. I very much like the idea that they are extensions of his will and powered by his malice. (The idea being that Morgoth's corruption of Arda will essentially always keep the orcs going even when he isn't around until Arda is remade) Orcs could also be a mix between corrupted elves, men, and animals to get something completely new but also resembling other creatures

[@Liethen]

If real life humans can become just as depraved as orcs then I see no reason they had to be soulless beasts rather than evil people.

[@aaronbainbridge-lc4pq]

Could you do a video on the full tale of Aldarion and Erendis. Great work as usual

[@kidtwist29]

I prefer the idea that they were corrupted elves.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

6:59 To be fair, if men and elves could have children together, there's no reason for men and orcs to not be capable of the same, if they are indeed tortured elves.

[@keitolainen7459]

Yeah. I wonder why there are no elf-orcs or orc-elves though. They should be super compatible. Unless I just haven't heard of them maybe? Seems to get a little muddled when you start getting into the weeds of who has souls and what that means. Do orc-men have souls? What about orc-men-men? Men-orc-men-men?

[@thegradyfiles]

The soul being trapped in trapped in a body while the only thing it can do is watch in terror is very terrifying

[@generalquoti3304]

11:46 so orcs are no more than zombies.

[@mhmt1453]

That is the best explanation I’ve heard thus far. I have been reading Tolkien since the early 1980s, and could never quite accept entirely any origin for the orcs. There was always an inconsistency. If they were tortured elves, how were their souls reconciled to Mandos? Would they not be immortal? Why, then we’re other captives such as Gwindor not made into orcs? Obviously, orcs were far more numerous in population to the elves, and given elves’ low propensity to bear many children, it seems unlikely that orcs only originate from elves Morgoth (and later Sauron) managed to capture. Even an unnaturally robust breeding program could not yield the vast hordes that show up at each of these battles. I find it more digestible that orcs were fashioned from a template of tortured elves whose spirits were cast out from their bodies. If Aule could create soulless moving creatures in the Dwarves, should we then not suppose Melkor, first among the Valar in skill and power, should have this potential? Clearly, orcs are soulless beings.

[@paulmcleod8370]

Only one word truly captures this ‘Grisley’ - how sad

[@RosesandLace]

Separating the souls and bodies is just as impossible as anyone being irredeemable. Souls are not vague spirits and "our true selves" trapped in meatvessels, like gnostics would have it, rather it is being both souls and bodies which separate us from the Angels on the one hand and animals on the other, making us uniquely human.

[@imaginemyshock8067]

I am reminded of Nephilim, empty vessels ripe for use by another spirit. The spirits of Melkor and Sauron could drive them to do his will, and when they were gone the orcs became rudderless and almost unable to function.

[@S0L12D3]

I feel like smegol could be a good example of the feya being driven out.

[@olegkerbikov36]

I think the best explanation is that orcs originated from elves. Orcs were really intelligent creatures - Tolkien himself stated in Hobbit " they can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves - it is not unlikly that they invented some of the machines especially the ingenious devices for killing large number of people at once for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them....

[@xshayahyawzi3666]

It is impossible that they were beasts talk between shagrat and gorbag are not records nor is the intergroup fighting between orcs which hindered them in Rohan. And Tolkien though a Catholic read a lot of germanic lore some of pagan origin, from which a lot of these races are derived. So they must really be considered proper creation of morgoth or corrupted elves. Mannish origin is too late per lore Therefore, I like the Christopher's Silmarillion selection

[@xshayahyawzi3666]

And eagles and huan were of one Vala each. Eagle of manwe and huan of orome. I am just saying that otherwise the Valar seem powerful enough themselves and the catholic world view is not always true in Tolkien's writings.

[@Raven6794]

You could take the view that the orcs are created by corrupting any creature with a soul, maybe even Dwarfs. In the end it’s for the reader to decide.

[@charleslarrivee2908]

One of the many gifts given us by RoP was how it approached this very topic with earnestness, rather than simply reducing the Orcs to cannon-fodder the way the movies did. Here, on the other hand, the orcs are still the enemy, and a brutal enemy that has to be fought "with the utmost severity" as Nerwen very clearly vows to do, but they're still living beings same as Elves and Men.

[@davidgrange8182]

With that last theory, does that mean that after death it would be possible for the orcs to be resurrected, and that the souls restored to being elves all along?

[@TheMastiffprince]

Interesting to hear. I've heard a few stories as well that the orcs were before Morgoth and they lived in tribes.

[@valethemajor]

This is how such creatures work in my setting. I am also Catholic and struggle with the same dilemma. I have separated out free-willed races as simply exaggerations/fantastical human races (they are still ultimately human - I have a soft issue with creatures like Tolkien's elves) and other seeming-intelligent creatures I call the 'sapients'. The sapients have mortal souls a la animals and some live for much longer to compensate. The sapients have a fixed culture that is irrevocably tied to their species, as well as their behavior. There are no goblins that aren't violent and don't steal; there are no bormin who do not construct anything more sophisticated than dirt huts, etc. This excerpt from St Alphonsus Ligouri makes me dwell all the deeper on this matter: "If on this earth where were two classes of men, one mortal, and the other immortal, and if the former saw the latter entirely devoted to the acquisition of earthly goods, would they not exclaim: O fools that you are! You have it in your power to secure the immense and eternal goods of Paradise, and you lose your time in procuring the miserable goods of this earth, which shall end at death. And for these you expose yourselves to the danger of the eternal torments of hell. Leave to us, for whom all shall end at death, the care of these earthly things." What would be considered indulgence and greed from our morality as immortal souled beings would actually be the pursuit of the natural good for such a mortal race...

[@TiagoRamosVideos]

Very interesting 👌

[@tuomaspolla3814]

I'm kinda rooted to the first theory of the Orcs' origin of them being originally Elves (and Men), captured and reduced into a foulish beings via horrible torture and dark sorcery and corruption, which I'm sure pretty much brainwashed and degenerated them.

[@danielbroening]

You hit a home run with this one. Just when I thought I had heard enough about the subject you weaved a wonderful and harrowing tale. Thank you! Good choice in background music also, whose the composer?

[@NerdoftheRings]

Thanks so much! And thank you for the Super!

[@AsadAli-jc5tg]

@11:18 this chilled my own soul.

[@QuentaAccords]

Imagine Orcs and Elves as the Hunter-Gatherers of ages past upon our Earth. Their difference is their way of life. An Orc will hunt for food with a little bit of gathering, while an Elf will gather food (provided by Yavanna) with a little bit of hunting. As such Orcs have been selectively bred by Melkor, Elves and Men to gather under one Master and ravage the lands of Arda in Warbands. Eurasia has seen such savagery, and I believe Tolkien didn't struggle with their Origins. An Orcish lifestyle exists in nature (Melkor), it exists in gathering (Elves) and it exists in societies (Men). Cannibalism.

[@dhaburuk6494]

That final origin makes the most sense in the context of Tolkien's faith and other establish lore. Christianity has divided and wrestled between factions & individuals, despite doctrine stating that all men should be redeemed. For the Orcs of Middle Earth to be alive they must have souls, and for the Elves and Men to forget that fact is all too relatable.

[@tomdumb6937]

If orcs are corrupted elves, then they are 1. Immortal 2. Must return to valinor. P.S. gollum converted from a hobbit and partially returned (smeagol/gollum)

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude thanks

[@RazSofer-xh3qs]

Tolkien: Orcs are made by Morgoth from stone. Fans: But Aüle made the dwarfs from stone yet they don’t have life. Tolkien: Damn I forgot. Then he took elves and tortured them into orcs.

[@Normal-u5w]

Their eversion to sunlight indicates that they only maintain a 2nd hand interpretation of reality handed down to them.. Highly religious

[@mt_baldwin]

I think the problem here is believing that a soul= intelligence/speaking, or that a soul is a requirement for these things. This need not be true, whatever your beliefs may be I doubt there are many that will think, if it's ever created, that true AI will have a soul, yet AI will likely be more intelligent than man and more than capable of language. Orcs could be the same concept, intelligent and capable of speech and independent actions but no more having a soul than an AI would, think of orcs like fleshy T800 terminators.

[@ac4th371]

I always just assumed it was a fact that Morgoth tortured the souls out of Elves then bread them. After a few generations they were born without souls. Didn't give it a second thought.

[@dominicadrean2160]

Here's a fun to what if question how different do you think the second and third ages would be if the lands of the first age never sunk under the sea after the war of Wrath

[@tonypapas9854]

11:00 to 12:30 Sounds a lot like "His Dark Materials".

[@venkelos6996]

So, I mostly back the idea of being derived from elves, though I do have problems with it. Beyond that, I always liked two differing ideas of mine. They aren't Tolkien quality, or based on anything he ever wrote, but... Melkor created the Trolls, and it could have been interesting if he later forced them upon his loyal humanoids. This could explain their disfigurement, dimwittery, and even some of their fear of sunlight, since some Trolls actually have reasons to avoid it. My proffered alternative, though, is that, as stated, the souls were driven out, bur they were driven out by Morgoth's evil essence. So, Morgoth weakened himself by divesting his native form of essence, and investing it into the world of Arda, marring it. Still, much of the world we see doesn't seem SO twisted, so where did much of that essence go? He poured it into the elves. He wanted to corrupt them, and so he forced as much of his potency into them, but their souls fled. That took their light, and grace, and intellect, bur left a long-lived body that continued to be exposed to this tainted malice, eroding, and decaying, it, but also allowing it to parrot life. That could be why they were loyal, and also why, without their Dark Lord, they were less. It also explains why new Orcs didn't gain souls; the evil of Morgoth passed from parent to child, and coloring them in the same ways, and allegiance. Since Morgoth's evil empowered them, this could explain why they couldn't be redeemed, or placated, as he was purely evil, by then, and always hungered for more.

[@austinwilliamson8721]

If Saruman and Sauron are both maiar, when Saruman turns away from the path he was given, could he use his full power as a maiar to rival Sauron?

[@greyworld6242]

Awesome

[@dtice69]

I don't care what anyone else says, the orcs being corrupted elves makes the most sense for the story, the personality of Morgoth, and for the themes of Tolkien. I think the rarest of mistakes in his entire life was changing the origin of orcs away from that.

[@Freddercheese]

If’n ya think about it, orcs are kinda sorta like the humans in all tomorrows.

[@connorbeattie583]

I thinks it’s insane that the Great Eagles or any other animals do not have souls, I think not having a soul would be worse than death (for example in Harry Potter lore the dementors kiss) so the fate of an orc is a cursed existence.

[@budoka_gaijin]

I always thought orcs were like darkspawn in Dragon age. They were most are soulless beings willed by the taint to kill all life. And some were people so corrupted and by it,they become ghouls. That's where you get the talking darkspawn.

[@j-dmachado4349]

What a fascinating exploration! So many nuances of orcish nature that I certainly hadn’t considered, very organically and eloquently presented. Intriguing (chiling!) stuff!! 😯 I think the last reasoning of the Dark Lords terrifying the fëa of elves/men to paralysis within their being until they became orcs may be most applicable to Tolkien’s latest thinking? It seems to solve a lot of Tolkien’s nagging questions about the origin of orcs, their (oppressed) dignity/integrity as created beings, and their fate after death 🤔

[@Greenknight3]

I always saw there as a strong separation between orcs being made from men and orcs made from elves. Orcs of men are little more than beasts, but we consistently see cunning and smart orcs who I think were the ones made from elves.

[@WasabiSniffer]

i would've said the same way marvel villains came into being. still, the way orcs are created/born always nagged at me, ever since saruman pulled them out of the mud pits

[@LucasKynaston]

For the next theory video, what if boromir takes the ring from frodo.

[@paulmcleod8370]

Having watched this video fascinated - can you tell me the difference between a goblin and an orc and whats the heritage of goblins thank you

[@floridaprepper751]

From what i have seen, orcs have no souls. They are beasts being controlled by a master.

[@milosozegovic6980]

Since Dragons in middle earth have ability of speach and are quite intelligent, can hold a grudge etc., do they have souls unlike common beasts?

[@WorldofStories.official]

If Morgoth couldn’t create life, how did the create the dragons?

[@Sunborne187]

That last line fits true to what Christians, like Tolkien was, believe: that to nourish the spirit is to be closer to God, but to nourish the body alone is to move closer to Satan.

[@majinjason]

I like all three. So the first orcs were like the first dwarves, or maybe corrupted apes. For the second set, captured and tortured elves were forced, likely with the aid of dark magic, to "breed" with these orcs. Giving them independence and a possible soul if twisted. The third set were the second group bred with men. To give them intelligence and strength and discipline. Giving us the orcs of saruman. The most dangerous. Even in the Lord of The Rings we see orcs continuing to be "perfected" so it seems likely they started as something more simple and moved into something worse through the ages. I also don't think combining the orcs with elves, genetically or magically would give them elf souls. Half elf men had to choose between the far lands and mortality. So the orcs probably never even had the option, they were just mortal. I don't like the idea of the orcs being evil elves though. They would be a WAY bigger threat if that were the case than they are ever shown to be. I do like the idea of the first orcs being combined with elves to make them better though. Smarter and more physically stronger.

[@jeffdonoho2448]

"The Gnomes called them." I must've missed something. There are gnomes in Middle Earth?