The Maw is Secretly WoW's Best Max Level Zone Ever, and No One Knows it

[@Oxfordbroski]

Hiru is spitting 100% facts here, thank god there is no calendar related events that are influencing his thoughts

[@renati1212]

TRUE

[@robertstuart480]

I was just about to comment, and I saw your comment. Dammit! He got me!

[@hlokk102]

"Hiru is spitting 100% facts here" His first fact in the video, less than a minute in, was incorrect. Isle of Quel'Danas was not the first daily quest hub. Three were added in 2.1, long before the Isle of Quel'Danas.

[@sleazysid253]

​@@hlokk102You do realize what day it is, right?

[@frederickbaker5819]

Typically his April 1st videos are opinion pieces. Not a fact but not a joke either. Just a different perspective on a hottake

[@Snuzzled]

I look forward to these every year. As much as they're funny jokes for April fools, they do sometimes make good points and make me think, even if I don't come out agreeing.

[@goekenaitor5674]

it's funny, every year Hiru makes a video like this, but honestly gives his side so well that I start to genuinely agree with the video lmao.

[@feloria1862]

Yeah and I usually agree with a bunch of his points, but none in this video. The maw was so unfun that It can't be redeemed

[@treecat125]

I think that's the idea 😂

[@Dormazain]

He's insanely good at selling his point. He's not even lying about systems, but lies in very subtle ways like "This creates a fun little minigame of dodging mobs", a sentence you would just let pass without realizing that his minigame is not fun at all immediately.

[@preds43]

​@@feloria1862That's Hell for ya

[@philbuttler3427]

If somebody talks calmly enough people think it's a good argument lol

[@pabloveas6459]

One of my buddies suffered a bug where he was unable to interact with the Waystone, thus fulfilling the "No one escapes the Maw" statement and we always mocked him because of it. Lucky bastard didn't know he got trapped in the game's best zone ever for about a week.

[@Drett25]

You cant hearthstone in the Maw?

[@Trevan2412]

He didn't have a hearthstone? Or maybe you could TP him to a dungeon entrance?

[@justice4549]

@@Drett25OP is either lying or they are all dense asf lmfao There’s so many ways you could get out of that

[@ziggs123]

Jokes aside, the concept wasn't bad but the implementation could have been improved a lot. Same goes for Torghast. I liked it at the start when it was really challenging or the long once where you became god mode. But they did something in between that made it just a chore you had to complete weekly and god forbid you are playing alts. Noone of these activities should have been mandatory for legendarys and conduits, but for transmog and titles, maybe weekly hc gear or catchup gear. Torghast should have been more like the mage tower

[@HugoARSantos]

WoW has a lot of good idea, bad implementation for ages, Garrisons in WoD people were excited for player housing but then it came with so many downsides: -Mandatory content, one of the first things you do in WoD is to set it up, improve it and even defend it as part of the "story" quests -Replacing basicly the starting hub for the expasion and since it was phased to each player, limiting contact with other players -Being tied to your character instead of account so for each character you have to do it all again -Being tied to other systems like the Garisson missions(wich were completly broken for making gold and after the expansion totaly useless) -Limited customization -Being dead content after the expansion ended, an housing system dead content... i can't even describe how stupid that is And after players say they don't like it and listing the reasons instead of improving the option Blizz takes is: they don't like it abandon it And if they like it the option Blizz takes is either let's make a new one for next expansion wich would lead to people eventualy not liking it because it feels all the effort done in the previous expansions was wasted or they would not even implement it and let it rot(*cough* Class Halls *cough*).

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

It's a bit redundant to say it was a good idea but executed poorly. Practically every poorly received thing ever could be described that way. The reason it's bad is because it was executed poorly. Developers aren't sitting around thinking about bad things to implement.

[@Ryan-sn3uo]

@@Red1Green2Blue3 I would like to chime in that Hero Talents were already pretty bad on paper when they presented it, same with covenants that locked you in, same with Azerite neck level grind and Azerite gear. People were already voicing their concerns before it even reached PTR. They were bad ideas on paper that got worse with bad implementation. In contrast, Torghast was a good idea with one mistake, Soul Ash.

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

@@Ryan-sn3uo I disagree.

[@tuesti7c]

I remember spending my last vacation in the maw with my wife because we had so many good memories

[@kaironst2969]

So true man. I'd recommend a hotel over there called torghast. Very good place with amazing room service and very good food.

[@AsbestosMuffins]

the maw was actually a great zone as a concept. a zone where you can only access it for a limited time each day helped keep people from farming it 24/7

[@patricklacey4946]

Conceptually, I agree, the implementation and appearance was depressing however lol

[@Subject_Keter]

"Dont go there... but we are going to force you to go in there and Torghast for Legendaries!"

[@robinpimpin190]

I hate this day 😂

[@matthewbentley7113]

I think the biggest oversight of the maw was that worgen mount racial and druid travel form worked in maw at all points, making it super easy for them vs any other class Not to mention glider cheese with the rocket thing that sent you in air

[@ThunderXSurge]

Druid goat

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

It wasn't an oversight

[@BlinkoutIRL]

I mean the idea is that you couldn't call your mounts but your powers were still there and the worken just put their arms on the floor.

[@j_shaw]

skipped over throne of thunder (or thunder isle w/e it was called) which, with it's progressive unlocks, was way better than timeless isle

[@Wheeljack678]

I sincerely applaud your ability to spin these sorts of things into a 100% positive viewpoint every year. Thank you - these April 1st videos of yours are top notch entertainment.

[@OrbisAetherum]

No irony, no April Fools: I liked the Maw, and I liked it even before I got my solo Torghast challenge Maw mount. I think not allowing mounting was a mistake, but otherwise I did like the general idea and theming.

[@Gebirges]

Best part about the Maw is the refreshing visuals that make you have fun to look at 24/7 while you farm your Stygia.

[@Oxfordbroski]

I think the points about the Maw were well put together and Hiru made a great case about the Maw despite the initial reception of the Maw

[@Evan-mt7bc]

1 thing was that it was on a daily timer, you could only play it for like 10-20 minutes at a time then you had to log in again tomorrow and sometimes you're just in the mood to play something grindy but the Maw didn't let you and sometimes you're just not in the mood for something grindy and the Maw forced you to do it. Being able to just sit down and grind the Maw would have been great, being able to bank your Maw days would have also been great. Like if every day you got a Maw Ticket and those could stack up to 20 I think the Maw would have been fantastic. Once a week I'd want to go to the Maw and the Maw became a thing I did about once a week and I wish I had more time to do it when I wanted to do it, the problem was I didn't want to do it every day.

[@adamadamadam83]

I think Blizzard really succeeded in doing something they probably shouldn't have done. In making a zone that the characters didn't want to be, they made a place that players didn't want to be. I like the aesthetic of the place personally, but most people like open, colorful places like Nagrand.

[@thearchiviste2358]

It is finally good to see someone acknowledging both the pros and cons of what we have in WOW. The Maw was indeed forced because of its tie with how you perform in high end content like M+ or Raiding. Combining the difficult nature of the zone and RNG factor of what you received, it was indeed tedious to do. However, if they never tied both power level progression to simply running the zone for cosmetics, achievements, mounts; basically another means of end game content like the new Delvs, the Maw would have received higher acceptance across the community, as did Torghast before everyone realised that's the only way of obtaining the legendaries and the currency needed for maxing them. Now about people who like easy rewards, but hate putting the effort in doing so, is a huge problem of the wow community 🤣 Similar to Plunderstorm, it is not mandatory, but if you want the cosmetics you have to do it. I believe people misunderstand what mandatory means here. It is mandatory because it's tied to general game progression/power scaling VS It is mandatory because of cosmetics/mounts/etc. The latter cannot be considered mandatory. However, if you want the rewards, that becomes a personal choice, which cannot be subjective to general complaints targeted at the content's design in terms of difficulty. A very good example of that is the Mythic Raid Tier Set colouration and PVP Elite Set. No one makes you play these, but you cannot complain just because you cannot have them, because you don't even wish to put in the effort of engaging with this content. At the end of the day, you must reward people who play the game more than the average with something that's better than the average. The two sets are very good examples of that, which can be translated to cosmetics, as well. If the example above is not enough, think of any hard to obtain mount like the Love Rocket, or if you are not a fan of RNG, consider mounts tied to a reputation farm that is not as easy to farm, or the Meta Achievements' mounts like Taivan, or the Mage Tower. :3

[@Complication84]

I loved the Maw. I enjoyed how brutal it was considering it was the literal Hell of WoW. I would stay there for hours just killing shit until the Jailer's goons would come destroy me. Felt like I was grinding demons in Hell like I did back in D2. Too bad retail players are all babies who want everything spoon fed to them, and only in the flavors they enjoy.

[@The_GlassCannon]

Damn, the first April 1 video that I wasn't completely rethinking my memory of the subject on. That said, this was quite the ambitious topic, kudos for braving it!

[@mcshamkraken4448]

I lovedc the maw. Torghast also had great appeal. I ran a lot of maw stuff with wife and a friend and spent hours laughing at our folies

[@charlayned]

I'm weird. I loved Shadowlands and the Maw/Torghast. It was fun. Running my gnome mage, sneaking around to get objectives, and such, it was fun. I loved doing that. I sometimes go down there just to mess with stuff. I level myself, I will only group with people I know (LFR sucks). I love the new Follower Dungeons. And I run my alts after the max is hit on my main. I liked the world quests in there too. And I am not a PvP person. I hate dying, which was a vital part of the Maw. I don't like Plunderstorm but it is FUN to watch. People who can do it well are fun...that championship was fun to watch. I LOVED the Visions thing either, it was a challenge, just like the Maw. I would love to see more things in old areas, or fixing it so you could do max level in those things like the Maw. I do miss it.

[@witcherpie]

the casual player enjoyed the shit out of maw/torghast and shadowlands as a whole rly. Myself included. The only ones who complain are the vocal minority of sweats spending their whole time online. And that's a fact.

[@frozenwrath362]

what's the name of the piano playing at 21:00 ?

[@peterspodniak9364]

I always feel like we start to value wow zones after the expansion ends for some reason. -During WoD, I hated Tanaan Jungle now I would love to have it back. -During Legion, I hated Suramar, and now i'd love to have it back. -During BfA I hated the whole thing, now I kinda wish to have it back. -During Shadowlands I hated the maw, but now I kinda realize it was a lot of fun too (Altho here, I can argua that Shadowland's problem was never the Maw, rather the loot nerfs, etc) -Now I hate emerald dream and the caverns feel kinda ok, im curious if I will think the same way when the war within comes back Also dragonflight kinda made me appreciate the beauty of pathfinding on a ground mount, not instantly teleporting everywhere I need. I think the right solution here would be a lot of smaller, alternative means of transport that get progressively unlock, such as teleporters instead of flight masters. There is something really cool about spending a lot of time in the zone where at some point you just know all the shortcuts, skips and ways to navigate. I also really liked toys that made exploration easier, such as Wings of Aviana in VoD or Emerald Winds in leagion. The ideal max level zone could combine these to for example a random mob that gives u the wings of aviana once you kill it or something

[@TE-eq1dc]

Man I see your points but the maw did kind of blow. Although I’d rather play that any day than my least favorite zone of all time Korthia.

[@omidnoori6560]

Your videos have a great look to things that many of us dont see them as such, im 100% agree with you on the topic that forcing people to do something greatly reduce the fun to doing that. These videos show sometimes other content creators that are use to focus on negative things can be wrong. Great video as always! (Sorry for my bad english)😅✌🏻

[@WilyforInfinity]

I still play the maw till this day , I’m happy someone sees what I see in it , it’s the only zone you could still go back to and get challenged even though you’re levels ahead

[@Impuracle]

Woooosh!

[@Faqka]

Whether it was a joke by April Fools or not, what is shown in this video is that the community did not realize what a good area it was.

[@desroth]

The particular day aside: The Maw was actually a pretty good idea in the vein of Quel'Danas and it was more directly tied into the story of the game other than a random zone that was added in a patch like the Sunwell was. The lack of using a mount was fine, and the introduction of excelling at a core component of the expansion (Torghast) to get a mount to use in the Maw was pretty cool and I actually liked having that to work towards. However there wasn't much of a reason to do anything in the Maw outside of maxing out Venari, and once you did that why would you ever go back to the Maw? The additional zones as they were added didn't really add anything to the zone outside giving a really imposing run up to the Sanctum made the Raid and the Zone really give the impression that you are approaching a massive threat as the entire zone around Sanctum was filled with the Jailer's army. The Maw was a really good idea that had a terrible execution, and all the small nitpicks became massive issues because of it. The final zone of Zerith Mortis was basically what the Maw should have been, and it shows.

[@Geraldo_Rivian]

Lorewise, argus should have been like maw... For decades thr legion was shown to be this infinite super army of super beings....yet progression through argus was pretty chill

[@kylekanuha]

They should add something like this in WW but add a type of keystone system similar to mythic where your drop rewards get progressively better over time, but your character is hindered in some way. It would be cool to not be forced into a group to obtain your gear, even if it’s at a slower rate

[@tylercummings1458]

Most people making an April Fools Day video thats sub 10 mins and purely memes. Hiru: makes nearly half hour video using good persuasion skills plus research to make people second guess hating something that deserves hate.

[@Marqrk]

Hot take: The Maw proved players don’t actually want the open world to be hostile to them. Classic Andys spent years saying “Ugh the world used to be a challenge to traverse it’s too easy now” and everyone believed them until we got the Maw and everyone realized that the open world being hard actually sucks ass and isn’t fun. It was proven twice over when Classic released and the open world wasn’t hard or hostile, just tedious if you weren’t specifically a mage who knew how to push their buttons or a pet class Edit: to preempt the discussion, this isn’t talking about flying because that’s an entirely separate discussion on world traversal that has a lot of nuance to it

[@19Szabolcs91]

I didn't mind the difficulty, however, I did mind how slow it was to navigate, and just the whole atmosphere of the thing. It was a bleak mismash of things in an expansion that is already bleak, but since it was not part of the actual world that you lived and and cared for as an anchor, it was just out of context misery. Felwood and Eastern Plaguelands felt real, like places that you saw healthy versions of, corrupted. The Maw was just pain for pain's sake. Also, it came out at the same time as the new writing team took over the game, and the whole game's tone was as nihilistic, spiteful and unwelcoming as it gets, and the Maw felt like a gameplay representation of that.

[@samwellcheck562]

I don't know if that's a hottake. MMO players are pretty infamous for how badly they understand there own interest in the genre by virtue of how quickly an MMO can die because it doesn't attract an audience. Like all the hardcore PVP MMOs everyone claims they want but never actually stick with. What those players actually want is just an engaging challenge: Hard enough to make you actually have to engage with the game and its mechanics, but not so hard you die 500x trying to accomplish anything and just end up wasting hours of your life. That also assumes the underlying mechanics are worth engaging with to some extent, and there's a lot that goes into that. It's almost like making a video game fun is a whole field of study unto itself and randos on the internet don't really understand what goes into that, just think of the most obvious difference to something they liked and blame everything on that.

[@TatsuyaWow]

classic and the maw is so different only thing in comon is the no mount but classic u get it at lv 40 not to mention the maw felt terrible to go to . i gess it was meant to felt like it

[@camiblack1]

@@TatsuyaWow you get the ability to get it at 40... realistically you get it at 55.

[@Freestyle80]

@@samwellcheck562 Classic wow was just as slow or even slower, why is that ok?

[@confusedbutok]

The worst zone in the worst expansion in WOW's history, it is irredeemably bad in every way. I wasn't forced into it, I skipped Shadowlands deliberately as I knew how attricous it was and how much quicker I could plough through it after the next expansion went live. I'm currently going through it all as fast as possible, and the Maw is conformable the worst part of that experience.

[@Kemyo0]

Did the isle of thunder add anything different compared than the isle of queldanas ?

[@grit1]

I know these April 1st videos are part in jest, part serious, but describing a corpse run as a 'fun little minigame' to boringly run back all the way to your corpse under threat of losing Stygia because of how frustrating navigation was in the Maw definitely got me good, bravo.

[@witcherpie]

i mean, isn't that gameplay what classic players preach about the whole time? For the world to feel and be dangerous, for dying constantly and doing corpse runs, for needing others to navigate/quest and play in these zones? This is what maw was. And this is why blizz should never get the feedback from wow players, cuz they're stupid and have no idea what the fk they want.

[@Poldx]

I wonder what I can do solo at max level to increase the power level for my character

[@ShawnMcNaughton]

I agree with the majority of your premise. I think, if anything, a lot of the problem with the Maw was aethetic - along with being dangerous, it was largely just grey. Yes, the river of souls was blue and the forge was red, but ultimately it was too successful in the depressing theme. It also didn't pull back into the story well. It had great hints at lore, but no NPC other than Ve'nari really talked with you. As such, the only thing to really do in the zone was fight NPCs. There are things that could have been done mechanically. Give us an enclave of escapees that we have to unlock and help hold their position. Give us a way other than ring and permanent disable to evade the eye by having an NPC poke it away. Give us something to fight for other than just 'bad guy is bad'. In addition, as you alluded to, it made class inequalities worse. As a druid, I could stealth, travel form, toss heals on myself, go bear for survival... I had perhaps the best toolkit in the game. Priests were especially not well kitted for it, and I'd argue hunters were also not well equipped. If a zone is only fun for a third of classes, that sucks. And making a gear set or spec just to survive the maw also feels bad, since you give up a lot of your usual power. It's not a 'natural' solution unless the game puts a flashing sign on doing so and makes that a goal, not a UI problem. Plunderstorm sidestepped this entirely by making it a separate toon, and I think that concept in warbands could help. As they patched the zone a bit, it did get better. Mounting helped class equality greatly; the other subzones added variety. The core ideas weren't awful; but the hard tuning, power stripping, depressing aethetic, lack of variety, and lack of interaction were just too much at once - it couldn't recover.

[@Cjelex]

this is somehow even more evil than your "Sylvanas did nothing wrong" and "Garrosh did nothing wrong" videos

[@Khaivet]

the only thing I hated about the maw was the eye mechanic, once that was gone I was ok with the zone, and after awhile navigation was pretty easy. so it's pretty funny that people rag on the maw. lol

[@ElFenrir13]

And never forget, Sylvanas is serving her eleventy billion year sentence of doing dailies in the Maw!

[@BillsTheory]

I know this might be a shock but some people don't like PvP, at all, so making a game based solely around PvP(Pluderstorm) and then putting unique exclusive time gated content behind that, really feel alienating to those people. WoW is built on PvE

[@Verdis_deMosays]

Never sure how much of this is hiru having fun, and actually enjoying a day to put out hot takes.

[@Geraldo_Rivian]

Gotta wonder... The female night elf maw walker mentioned in the tormentor's notes.... Could it be tyrande? Would be exciting for her to turn out to be a sleeper agent in later expansions...

[@archvaldor]

Even though is my full-time job I didn't know a lot of this. Blizzard really should have someone explain all this stuff and it would have motivated a lot more players.

[@facetiouslyinsolent8313]

I absolutely loved the maw. It silenced all the people whining and crying about how easy Wow had become. I mained a Destruction warlock in Shadowlands and it was such a rarity for me to ever die until the maw. The maw offered some incredible hidden mounts and the quest lines were interesting. It reminded me a little of leveling on a pvp server back in 2006, everything at all times wanted to kill me. Great video Hiru, thanks!

[@Kromush1995]

Dudes, this was posted on April 1st, it's a joke of a video, much more like the zone, so chill.

[@js117595productions]

What addon is he using for his chatbox?

[@algenomen]

Did you speedup your voice? It sounds like 10% speed up. I prefer the calming soothing slower voice.

[@dawfydd]

Hiru has a habit of overlooking parts that could get him in trouble with blizzard. another major reason the Maw was so disliked was because the Dev's were telling us they knew best - that their opinion on how warcraft should be played was the right way to have fun, and there had been large push back on that arrogance from people who didn't even play the game they thought they were experts on. the maw could've been interesting if they made it 100% cosmetic like upgrades. The only other option would be to have another way to obtain these items easier but take longer something you could auto pilot. But the maw *could* speed thing up you could gear past some of the places which would delay you otherwise, then you'd have an optional area with the benefit if you knew how to group up/play your class you could gear up faster. They could've even made it so partying was somewhat required in the zone at the start so maybe players would band together. But always when there is only ONE way to obtain power upgrades it always makes players unhappy, nobody wants to be forced to have fun the right way.. which is a huge part of the maw story that doesn't get covered. Now Blizzard is listening again.. they used to lie and 'listen' for 2-3 months every 2 years of complaints so this has lasted longer so far.. but players like me legacy since TBC i've just moved on now.

[@dawfydd]

it also had the ALT problem, If day one you could play any alt with the progress you'd made- and earn account wide progression people who play many alts like myself would've liked it better. Warcraft is so way behind the times in terms of account wide stuff they should just consider FFXIV job system either one character- all the classes, or one account- progress unlocks on every toon. then having keys and quests to unlock content works so much better, you play it through once- and only once (unless you wanna opt in a second time) and the world feels like its being changed by your actions at least slightly rather than just having this unchanging world for each character. I'm Champion but none of my actions matter.

[@hernanstanden824]

What i most like about the maw is the navigation. Becouse you needed to use every single spell in your repetory to navigated. Demon gate to climb or to fly bridges, send your voidwalker by move action to pull mobs out of your way, fear, you have to pay atention to patrols and move out of the main way to avoid them, avoid traps, etc. I dont remember using any of this things in Df while farming rares. In fact when you said legion is when character are more powerfull, i agree lorewise, but DF is when character feeled more powerfull, you can do everything without paying atention from the begging of the expa.

[@Randall_Kildare]

The second I zoned in there, my immediate thought was: *They've literally sent us to WoW HELL to quest.* THIS is what they think of us.

[@games12444]

Having to do Torghast as a challenge at first and being rewarded with that mount felt very rewarding. You were ahead of the game if you got that mount while everyone else around you was still running on foot.

[@_agx]

I actually really agree with hiru here, being someone that for all of SL into the first season of DF was raiding at roughly top US 50, and not someone who openly likes solo world content other than occasionally or just flying around exploring (which I love) the maw was actually really fun and I have fond memories (and not so fond of dying memories) 9.0 maw felt rushed out which makes sense. But 9.1 maw and korthia was probably some of the best world content we’ve had in literal years. Great video hiru!

[@MrJoemccloskey]

I like many of your points, makes me wish I had given the maw more of a chance. Marcelian made a similar point recently. He thinks what might work is solo/group content that is reminiscent of the mage tower that rewards cosmetics as opposed to direct power level upgrades.

[@machine_gun_jigwy]

Joke aside, I also have this "secret favorite" about Shadowlands. The Maw was okay in my book, but... Torghast. I don't remember having this much fun since Legion. Toghast was also hated because people felt forced to do it, and waste their time just to obtain legendaries when they would rather be off raiding or pvping. In the meantime, I absolutely loved running Torghast over and over either alone or with my brother, and it felt so rewarding when we first reached the tier that gave you the maw mount.

[@Texas_RedNV]

Now that Shadowlands is gone we can all agree about how good we had it. Tons of content, heaps of lore, amazing systems and a bunch of respect for our time. Dragonflight is nothing but a flop and it makes me yearn for the better times of running around in the Maw and Korthia doing dailies and gathering anima.

[@dontreplytome5665]

Shadowlands did not respect out time till the last like 6 months of the xpac let's get it straight. Having said that I loved shadowlandz

[@godlygamer911]

you're a bad person... you actually had me for a second lol

[@kyleellis1825]

Shadowlands was the same issue as WoD. It's way better as leveling content than it is as an expansion.

[@Ryan-sn3uo]

After they removed the stupid eye, I had a lot of fun farming the Golden Hand mount in Beastwarrens and Perdition Hold with other players. It emulated the Classic WoW leveling feel, where the place was tough, and nobody had a mount, so we had to help each other out. Of course it helped that I didn't have to suffer half the problems people had with the Maw since I'm a night elf druid, I can mount, stealth, and shadowmeld. Ironically, for how terrible the expansion turned out to be, it was one of my fonder memories of Shadowlands.

[@Joe_Potts]

6:40 "making the mobs actually require a group to take down" Unless you were a Blood DK, you could solo anything except a world boss or an actual dungeon in BfA... It'd take several minutes to kill those elites, sure, but it could be done through sheer force of will and endless self heals lol

[@solahara960]

On paper, i join you on ''the maw is probably, design wise, one of the best if not the best zone Wow ever made''. But, i think that Blizz just made a bad call when it comes to theme. Fact is, we got the maw, which was kind of mandatory, and we got Thorghast that was too, both with the same theme. And when came 9.1, they decided to expand the maw and made a whole raid themed after the Maw/thorghast Theme. This leaded to theme exhaustion, the same way everyone was sick of orcs at the end of WoD or of Green Fel theme at the end of Legion. I really think that if there would have been another patch in SL with another theme set up in between the Maw and Korthia, the maw would not look so grim in the popular opinion (ahem... yeah... grim... maw). Additionnally, the maw made you hate yourself for not be a druid. But that's another issue.

[@thomassleziak1222]

I am so glad that I started playing in season 3 and could skip The Maw almost entirely, hated that zone lol. Zereth Mortis was better :D

[@jesseellen359]

Love these April fools video's from you. Great job again.

[@davemustang8173]

Hiru's not even trying to hide the pranks anymore

[@beau9334]

Garrosh did nothing wrong

[@Osric24]

I see what you're saying here, and I think I have a way to compare it: It's WoW Dark Souls. The challenge, the optimizing, the tough mobs and difficult mechanics. That all SCREAMS Soulsbourne style games. Only thing missing is the try try again crazy tough bosses. For lots of people, that is an engaging gameplay style. But it was entirely unexpected in WoW, and even more unexpected, like you said, as a requisite endgame zone. I agree that the opt-in and side-grade style rewards would be a good way to implement it further for people that would WANT something Soulsbourne in WoW, but as you said, I think that ship has sailed, and Hardcore Classic is probably the closest we'll get to anything like it. But yeah, I fucking hated the Maw. This essay didn't change my opinion, but if anything confirmed it. I'm not looking for Soulsbourne gameplay style in WoW compared to the more casual grind we're used to today. BUT should they try again, I'd definitely support it, especially if it's optional opt-in.

[@deployed246]

I'm actually one of those players that loves WoW's more difficult content. Back in Vanilla I would intentionally set myself a goal to solo various elite quests with as many classes as possible, like the Key to Searing Gorge questline for Alliance players. I'm also a huge fan of difficult to navigate zones, to this day, Highmountain (pre-flight) was my favourite zone. Learning all the routes to get from A to B was genuinely satisfying for me. And of course, I also like progressive powergain systems that reward determination and adaptability, whether it is solo or group content. So, basically the Maw should've been fun for me. It wasn't. I did recognise the idea behind it and I also feel this needs to be looked at again in future, but instead of doing it to an entire mandatory zone, it should just be an area of an existing zone, which to be fair, they did also do this in Shadowlands' initial four zones, but they lacked any interesting systems and player engagement outside of WQs. So, why didn't it work for me? First, zone aesthetic. Yes, its meant to be "hell", so it should be oppressive, great, you succeeded, but unfortunately the variation in the zone was even less creative than TBC's Red, Green and Purple Peninsulas, at least all three of those were distinct for a reason other than the recoloured textures. Second, creativity. Again, this is meant to be "Hell". The most creative thing in the zone is the river of souls, which is just ticking damage that is basically an alternative to the game's drowning mechanic. That they didn't do enough to make that section more memorable was bad enough, but that it was the _only_ note-worthy "Hellish" location made it worse. Third, aimless purpose. The rotation issue of Dailies and World Quests is really felt here, especially in their limited number. Go fill up your soulkeeper and get out. Even though there is a progression system in there with Venari, the fact that we see that progression through a vendor and very little else is so frustrating. Even the Molten Front had the decency to show the impact you're having. You see your affect in your covenant sanctum, sure, but the Maw itself? Nothing. We obviously eventually had the covenant invasions, but that suffers from the same rotation issue that dailes and WQ already wore us down with. Same issue with Torghast. Repainting textures and swapping mobs is _not_ engaging or providing any depth to environmental storytelling.

[@WadeAllen001]

As much as I remember MoP's amount of dailies being way too much, I really really dislike the Timeless Isle and its future iterations. I'd prefer if we could go back to the days of daily quests over the overdone zones nowadays that are based around infinitely spawning rares and treasures. And while I didn't really like the maw, I wasn't as annoyed by it as most people because I play a druid which meant I could use travel form to go fast and prowl to avoid fighting most of the enemies.

[@CreepyPhantom]

The Maw is truly one of the zones of World of Warcraft

[@bob8mybobbob]

All jokes aside, I think there is a serious lack of hard WoW content that doesn’t also punish you for failing. The most fun I’ve had in WoW for a while was when the mega dungeon first dropped. We four manned it, and it was HARD, but dying meant nothing but the repair bill, and when we got tired we could just leave and come back another day with our progress saved. Torghast was flawed, unbalanced, and I hated the original “die too often and your run is meaningless” but the concept of an increasingly difficult solo/group area is good, and something I’d love to see iterated on.

[@jotarokujo3603]

My favourite thing about Venari was her voice acting. I like the va, and it suits the character.

[@OliveOilFan]

The “hell” of Warcraft was such a disappointment They should’ve just stayed with the twisting nether as the hell of Warcraft

[@blacksunshine9995]

I never understood the hate for this zone. It is almost exactly like Argus, in that you are traveling to the home base of the top enemy of the expansion. It was never going to be a cake walk. It was never going to be a spot where you could just sit still and enjoy the scenery. The Maw/Argus were literally Hell. It had to be tough and punishing and challenging and live up to the name of end game zone. This has always been in the game even in the 'best version' of the game Vanilla we had end game zones like EPL and silithus that required groups to traverse and overcome.

[@bob8mybobbob]

One of my most quoted things happened in the maw. Was playing with some guildies in VC when we went to fight a rare Lead “he’s got a knock back, don’t get knocked off the edge” *six seconds later* Me “I got knocked off!”

[@DabutCHeR3000]

I really liked the maw thorgast and korthia. They gave me something to do in the game where I felt like I was progressing my character. I loved the idea that death had consequences. I loved the progression it had as a zone. I also loved the pvp the zone brought. Now when I log into dragon tales, the only thing to do is world quest. I fly around the zone and they usually are elite world quests. So I sit there for 5 mins trying to find anyone in the zone to help but give up and log off. It's a shame they completely removed good solo and world progression from the game because hardcore raiders didn't want to feel forced to do it everyday. They shut of just tweaked the rewards.

[@deathofshadows]

the no-mounts allowed thing really let the players take their time and take the fight against each mob seriously. I actually took a step further and walked around most of the time because as a mage I wouldn't be able to run around all the time.

[@johnMa7869]

Im one of the ppl that mostly do m+ and raiding in wow, but hearing that (I started with wow in dragonflight) makes me really excited for delves next expac. Tbh I would love some challenging outdoor content, next to the other stuff in the game. Makes the game feel more like an mmo than a "chill in town until you get in a group" game

[@Bamahut]

Holy shit, at 4:35 I'm seeing a wild Corrupted Ashbringer! That's wild to see it on retail!

[@Freestyle80]

Hiru you havent been recommended to me for ages but i guess youtube's algorithm couldnt resist showing me the troll title I thought you'd do "Fyrakk did nothing wrong' or some other warcraft character this year lol

[@dima10656]

We will get Fyrakk next year, I hope

[@dezmond2525]

Fyrakk indeed did nothing wrong, after getting caught in that damn tree dozens of times while trying to quickly fly in the Emerald Dream, I also wanted to burn it down.

[@Cloud-vf9df]

I know that it's a joke video but still. There are good points made. What killed the maw for me was that in the begining, mobs that someone else pulled, ran around you and then evaded.. would pull on you. It was a constant. You fight a hard fight but you'll manage.. and then a druid in travelform runs past you and you just know that you are dead because all the mobs behind him will switch to you. And the "mandatory" argument can also be said about Torgast. I enjoyed it up untill the point when I saw how much I have to grind it in order to get my legendaries. I'm among the people that don't like being forced into a solo player content in order to be competitive. And when blizzard started nerfing various builds.. in a single player content. What was the issue? You are not getting any advantage there over anyone if you manage to get that build.

[@MrT0XY]

At around 15:00 i could litterly hear the resentment towards what you were saying about loving minmaxing for maw

[@Jerry2011b]

SL got the most annoying WQ ever, here are some example Legion/BFA WQ: Kill a rare or kill certain numbers of mobs SL WQ(at glance): Objective 1--Kill and collect certain items from killing some mobs (Hidden/follow up)Objective 2-- Go to a NPC turn in these items Objective 3--Apply buff/quest item to some NPC Objective 4-- Go back to the NPC Objective 5--Kill more mobs and collect more Objective 6-- Turn the items to the NPC Objective 7--Summon and kill a big Elite Objective 8--Loot the elite and turn in the quest item to NPC I recall doing some quest that looked very easy but end up spending 45 mins to finish. It was during the beginning of SL so my gear sucked and we didn't have flying mounts.

[@ElladanKenet]

I can get behind the logic and intent, but rushing development of things really is the bane of WoW. I am a WoD defender. I liked the expansion. I really liked what they were doing with it. I could SEE their vision. But so much got cut out that what was left felt really mid, and then there were huge content droughts... droughts where some of that cut content would've been. RIP Faralon. RIP Shathrath raid. RIP Goria. On the hindsight, Legion's my favorite expansion by a huge margin, and the extra work they did on it at WoD's expense is directly a correlation.

[@nomnomNACHO]

The maw was something similar to the visions in bfa only it didnt had a timer. I really liked visions where you could progress further and do more and more of it. Similar in the maw the feeling of progression was pretty cool.

[@Mexican00b]

i liked the maw (but then again, i also loved vashj'ir lel, seal form go brrrrrrrrrr) as a druid, at the release time, i could go 100% while every single peasant had to walk there... i also did the 12? 16? whatever floors to get the metal rat mount... theeeen like a month later they released mounts for the maw and i was so mad, i stopped playing hahahahahahaha... fuck "everyone should have it" mentallity of blizzard, kills achievements so easily

[@petrameyer1121]

How? How can you show EQ Blackburrow footage without a prior warning? I will not be able to sleep tonight due to flashbacks! ;)

[@ZapatosVibes]

I'm a Vanilla Andy, and the only thing I remember loving about Shadowlands was the Maw, especially for world PVP. Should have given other ways to get the same rewards so ppl wouldnt feel "forced" to do it.

[@kathiseprowse5555]

Maw was great. I LOVED how much harder that zone was, specially on launch. Everything before that was just plain farming, not much to think about. For once it felt really great to be somewhere as a tank, when ppl actually wanted to group up with you aswell.

[@Goldskull_96]

The title alone produced a visceral reaction that I cannot completely explain aside of absolute disgust and disdain that no other zone in the game has ever evoked.... Well played Hiru lmao

[@Hexadeca]

Overall I didn't think the Maw was bad and I kinda liked it since I tend to solo play except for raid night. Being a night shifter sucks when all the guilds are in bed when ya get off work. It was the fact having alts made it suck. Really hoping warbands will be fun.

[@supersolenoid]

If Blizzard listened to me, they'd have zones like the Maw turned into a themed leveling area for alts.

[@jol6817]

April 1 or not, I liked the Maw. It was literally Warcraft hell. It was supposed to feel oppressive. It literally did what it needed to do.

[@xzxmemoxzx]

This was my first expansion and first wow end level zone, I really can't believe people wish it was easier/what we have now. Only real complaint was grey but what else could a soul wandering zone be?

[@samwellcheck562]

This reminded me of a lot of defenses I've heard about Dark Souls 2, but you're actually more convincing when joking then they were when being genuine. Like DS2 the Maw certainly had some worthwhile ideas, it just executed none of them very well or combined them very well or kept separate things that really didn't mesh very well, or... do anything very well because they thought "punishing=good" was the only goal worth paying attention to when designing it.

[@lolbajset]

Git gud

[@TheKitsuneOnihane]

Once i set aside the other reasons i hated shadowlands, i will agree about the maw. This is a place that gave faction leaders a run, so it needed to be tough. And it was. I enjoyed building up traversal methods and unlocking the super hard areas. You could push to super hard areas if you wanted to risk dying like an idiot. But I'm a rogue so grains of salt. Lots of interesting lore. I like when they go grim. korthia was a fun place full of collections. Blizz wanted it to be the central, most important location, and did that. Literally and figuratively.

[@Diamondplate-2]

Dropping your currency when you die reminds me of the early days of SWG when you died your body could be looted by other players. That was fun for some and a nightmare for others.

[@dalorasinum386]

This sounds like the exact thing I always wanted in the game. Shame I left the game in early BFA and missed it. Edit: yea this was released on April fools. So presumably the joke is Hiru liking it. Was the actual content of the zone accurate though?

[@petterituovinem8412]

Korthia was more depressing

[@Jabarri74]

It was tiny and boring

[@mariogallego5513]

I didnt care for Korthia either

[@Scumborg]

It only makes sense that the majority of people would hate being in literal WoW hell.

[@chpgmr1372]

As someone who hasnt played WoW in like +15 years. This zone seems very interesting but perhaps was for the wrong audience. Like I stopped playing WoW because it messed with my school work but tried to come back after they first simplified things and like it was a mostly a QoL improvement but felt like a step too close to the game playing itself. Then hearing about the changes over the years it all sounds like a game where the only thing is the raids where the rest of the content plays itself almost to completion.

[@holyflygon]

The maw would be more liked if we could mount up at the beginning. Having mounts be so important to WoW and how most zones were built around mounts to suddenly lose them for almost a whole xpac felt horrible.

[@romulo.silveira]

I actually really enjoyed the Maw. Reaching "threat level midnight" felt like a challenging yet fulfulling chore.

[@Sgtstd]

I find it to be very poetic, that I had to witness literal WoW-Hell to find Absolution and quit.