The Mental Health Industrial Complex - Abigail Shrier | Maiden Mother Matriarch 61

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My guest today is the journalist Abigail Shrier, author of the bestselling 'Irreversible Damage', and now a new book - 'Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up.' We spoke about the harmful side effects of therapy, particularly for children, whether the rise of therapy culture is a product of family disintegration, and why girls from liberal families have been worst affected by the rise in teenage mental illness.
In the extended part of the episode, we also spoke about gentle parenting and why parenting gurus are so attractive.
02:00 Effects of psychotherapy
04:02 American expansion of child psychotherapy
06:46 Counter-cultural insight
13:03 Young people can’t handle adulthood
16:20 In search of family figures
19:30 Where did rumination come from?
22:41 Politics and religion for child psychology
30:21 Prince Harry
35:12 America’s toxic parenting
41:33 Family estrangement
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#LouisePerry #AbigailShrier #MaidenMotherMatriarch

[@bananabread6148]

My cousin's daughter is 5 and she has been spoiled to the extent that she's a complete sociopath. Instead of fixing the family dynamic that has made her this way, they put her in therapy where she was diagnosed with conduct disorder. The family dynamic, which is the root of the problem, remains unchanged.

[@penfro]

‘Conduct disorder’? Jesus H. Euphemisms are ruining society vis ‘top surgery’ and ‘bottom surgery’. Are we too delicate to be honest? How about ‘spoilt brat disorder’?

[@agricolaregs]

I swear most people just want a pill to fix everything.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Don't level blame, 5 yr olds don't have a soul yet, the complicated ensoulment operation is performed around the age of 10.

[@andrewjoyner4133]

IS what happens when you never tell them NO and they never get past the 'terrible twos' stage.

[@JeffCaplan313]

@@agricolaregs Mine is red-colored. 😊

[@zerodivisionerror]

Introducing "The Sopranos" into this discussion is an excellent idea. The scene where Carmela visits the series' only rational therapist, Dr Krakower, was utterly astonishing for me, especially since I was captivated by Tony and his lifestyle. Carmela: He’s a good man, a good father. Dr. Krakower: You tell me he’s a depressed criminal. Prone to anger. Serially unfaithful. Is that your definition of a good man? Carmela: I thought psychiatrists weren’t supposed to be judgmental. Dr. Krakower: Many patients want to be excused for their current predicament because of events that occurred in their childhood. That’s what psychiatry has become in America. Visit any shopping mall or ethnic pride parade and witness the results. (...) Dr. Krakower: Have you ever read “Crime and Punishment”? Dostoyevski. (Carmela shakes her head “no.”) It’s not an easy read. It’s about guilt and redemption. And I think were your husband to turn himself in, read this book and reflect on his crimes every day for seven years in his cell, then he might be redeemed. Carmela: I would have to … get a lawyer, find an apartment. Arrange for child support. Dr. Krakower: You’re not listening. I’m not charging you because I won’t take blood money. And you can’t either. One thing you can never say. That you haven’t been told. Rewatching the series in 2024 reveals how prophetic it was. It's about a narcissistic individual prone to bouts of anger who uses therapy as a way to get away with his sick way of life. It's about so many people in our current culture. The scene I'm talking about: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKu5ln-gn5t0pZo

[@muiresuilgorm3452]

Thank you. Yes, it is quiet brilliant. Ignored by most fans.

[@Rick_Cleland]

*_The Sopranos_* is probably the best T.V. show ever made.

[@lucydayLucida]

@@russellj.collerjr.5547 That's some twisted deflection you've got going on there.

[@lucydayLucida]

@@russellj.collerjr.5547 You do know you're basing your view here on fictional characters in a tv show, right?!

[@deschloro]

@@lucydayLucidaI suspect you could find real life examples of Carmella and Meadow…

[@v9b23j]

A friend of mine has been in and out of therapy for appx. 30 yrs. Not only did she develop "treatment dependency," but she also takes on the role of a therapist with me and other people, forming a codependent relationship with friends. A psychologist said rescue syndrome is a type of narcissism because the rescuer/fixer/savior is on a mission to save the other person and believes s/he is the only person who can do so.

[@edwardszysorhans573]

A good therapist will work with you to define specific goals with the endpoint being that you don't need to keep going all the time. Some therapists are simply well paid enablers

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Been seeing her everywhere for new book. Abigail's books are to the microcosm of derangement phenomena involving families and children, as Michael Shellenberger's books are to the macrocosm of derangement phenomena involving society and public policy.

[@johnstewart7025]

Adults can be trusted to take care of themselves, UNTIL they can't be.

[@nourishflourishflow]

Constant self-focus is really harmful. The most depressed, angry and lost souls I know are incredibly self-focused. At one time, we held a shared vision of the Sacred...something beyond the self. My guess would be that the pendulum will swing back in that direction and we'll see a massive shift in people as a result.

[@tobyharper7577]

I think this is spot on. As someone depressed as a result of a lot of self focus, stemming essentially from a series of embarrassing situations, I'm finding that the lack of a shared sense of direction, shared story outside of myself in the collective to be the biggest obstacle in combatting depression which seems to be a sort of shame loop. I think a lot of the secular world I inhabit has a shared story at the moment of one of you're born you die so just enjoy it, and it seems a lot of their shared vitality comes from that. When you start requiring a bit more meaning, or more depth to the story as you see it, you quickly realise you have no container for that depth in the collective day to day, and a lot of shame comes bounding in as you begin to distance yourself from your collective story, compounding the depression and isolation... I would say this is a little different to the self-ness depression we are seeing, but my hope is that people inquire deeply into their own depression and see the sociological reasons that my be underpinning it, but it can easily slip into a self referential existence, which might be necessary if the only other story outside of them is one of accumulation and shared denial?

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

I'm sry, did you say something? I was wrapped up in my own issues.

[@JeffCaplan313]

I used to consider women's problems. Then I realized no act of God could ever fix them, let alone anything I could ever hope to do.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

@@JeffCaplan313 Jesus, take the wheel 🙏

[@JeffCaplan313]

@@Jules-Is-a-Guy Jesus isn't here right now. It's just me.

[@72586jejones]

I have come to realize how unusual my upbringing truly was. My grandparents on both sides of my family were good friends, nearly best friends. I spent soooo much time with my grandparents and cousins. It was just super normal. I went on nearly every vacation with both sets of my grandparents and parents. My children were watched by my grandparents and parents regularly while I worked full and part time. It was not until I married and hear of my husband's experience that I realized I truly had an idyllic childhood. It also was not until after I had my second child that I ever experienced a form of depression. I was given a very joyful, happy life. I work really hard to give my kids the same thing.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

You are very fortunate. A big problem is that people move so far from extended family and children now feel vulnerable and don't have grammy to talk to and be fed by.

[@72586jejones]

@@MaryC-co8fm don't I know it! I am very blessed. And you are correct. I don't necessarily love where I live per say. I would love to live somewhere much warmer, but I live in a safe area around family. I would not trade that at all.

[@TrackerNeil]

Great conversation. I am a big fan of therapy, but Shrier's words of caution are well-taken.

[@rebeccapenders5050]

I loved both of Abigail's books and have been recommending them, especially to parents! ❤

[@rachaelryan4076]

Children would benefit far more from a comprehensive philosophy syllabus in every level of their education than crappy mandatory therapy with hardly qualified hacks mindlessly rabbiting pc platitudes

[@MaryC-co8fm]

Very interesting comment.

[@treehugger3615]

Very good interview.

[@annemariegodden]

CBT with a 4 year old is contraindicated because the child does not have the cognitive development to engage and learn from that remedial framework. Children at 4 years old need guidance to practice character-driven behaviour as they play, learn and encounter challenges in their day-to-day. For example, "we don't hit our friends" (when we are in conflict with them), we talk through the problem - then the adult needs to scaffold and guide that conversation, encouraging the children to kindness for each other. Mostly, children teach themselves and work it out with feedback from each other, but targeted, direct and loving, adult support (when children struggle) is essential. There is a lot of damage the poorly educated can do to a child's life trajectory. ... and being habituated to covert rumination predisposes people to narcissistic abuse...

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

I'm gonna go think, negatively abt what you said, by myself.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

Children home schooled don't display the acting out of school children. They are so peaceful and calm, it is astonishing.

[@jacktaylor432]

Maybe as a mental health professional, who works with children & teens, I’ve never been inclined to ruminate on problems. Identify & discuss them yes, then move on to finding healthier behaviors. Solution focused approaches are effective and prevent many of the concerns discussed. Define what a successful conclusion of therapy will look like & help the clients use their strengths to deal with life’s challenges. Talking over & over about the same thing is unhelpful, unethical, & quite frankly, annoying to the kid. Great conversation.

[@spiff1]

u guys are useless, youre literally all talk

[@jjforcebreaker]

Fantastic talk, thank you! Big fan of Mrs. Shrier and her book. Just like the interviewer, she's a persuasive voice of reason, healthy critical thinking and decency, not only in their field of work.

[@CourtneyCoulson]

Affirmation therapy wasn't mentioned, but it's a big factor in this current problem. There's no exploratory therapy or life coaching going on, it's just agreeing with every idea the patient has, no matter how unhealthy.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

She`s spot on

[@izzya8116]

What a powerful episode. Thank you Louise and Abigail.

[@eamsutton]

I just thought of a good example of how just talking to someone can cause harm. If you want to do research - even just doing qualitative interviewing with patients about their experience, you have to get IRB approval and prove that this discussion would not illicit negative emotion or trauma for the subject.

[@littleboots9800]

I was recruited for several interviews that a psychologist was doing as part of a counselling degree or PhD or something. It was about childhood experiences of ex drug addicts. To be picked you had to be off drugs, tested, and stable for a certain amount of time, no ongoing therapy for other issues and all participants had to be offered instant access to high quality mental health services in case it brought up long suppressed issues. We also couldn't be paid in cash (in case we spent it all on heroin I guess.) There were lots of safeguards like that. I know she found it hard to get participants that met requirements. I did it and got £50 for each hour, that was nearly 20 years ago. When she published it I was the only one that took up the invitation to go through it with her and her conclusions.

[@dianecorbin8886]

Absolutely brilliant interview. My thinking is similar to you both. Leave our children alone to be stroppy children. Unless it's a serious concern it's part of life.

[@invincible125]

Wonderful episode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@v9b23j]

The parenting scenario involving a girl screaming on a commercial flight, with her father focusing solely on validating her feelings without addressing the disruptive impact on other passengers, appears to reflect the current trend in parenting, akin to the principles of Conscious Parenting advocated by Dr. Shefali. While employing Non-violent Communication to acknowledge a child's needs can be beneficial, there's a potential drawback of fostering excessive dependence, commonly referred to as "Mollycoddling." Last but not least, Individualist cultures tend to have more narcissistic people.

[@spiff1]

Then think about how many more single-mothers there are now, who do that same thing.. No discipline from the masculine, just feminised behaviour from women and weak men

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

9:03 his therapist's name is KAREN!!! (Same actress).

[@ERH-ph5gb]

There is a film, "Lars and the Real Girl", in which someone who is mentally ill orders a human-sized rubber doll and treats her as his wife from then on. The family is very tolerant, the brother and his wife act as if it's totally natural for a rubber doll to sit at the dinner table and be included in the conversation. The patient's imagination that his doll is alive is not disturbed or attempted to be suppressed. The entire small community joins in. Everywhere, whether in the restaurant or out bowling, the villagers support Lars in his endeavour to treat the doll as human. The message is that by the end of the film, Lars realises on his own that he has to give up his doll and he solves the problem by letting it die. There is even a real funeral and then Lars abandons his fantasy. As beautiful as the story is, it is unrealistic. I don't want to question the message here that you shouldn't try to dissuade the severely mentally ill from their fixation. The film contrasts something for me: that completely normal people pathologise themselves because it is in vogue and that any fixation on a certain identity should be normal. Nobody should find it strange if something IS actually strange. The severity of real mental disorders and serious diagnoses is thus marginalised and instead mild complaints are maximised. Completely normal people or those with mild symptoms undergo therapies and medication without real need. The real need of the seriously ill is pushed into the background and the fact that therapy places are in short supply is not due to the large number of genuinely ill people, but to the fact that only very few people are really very mentally ill. Those who are, however, need the places. If we as a society get the impression that we are all sick and victims, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just as courts can be overrun by minor cases, it can happen in medicine that doctors and surgeries are overrun with minor complaints and the work with acutely or seriously ill patients is disturbed as a result. I explain this by the phenomenon that it is much easier for working people to be confronted with non-serious cases. But where people are not prepared to admit this to themselves due to the self-preservation of the profession, they have to pretend that their own profession is urgently needed and that the more practices, therapies and social support, the better.

[@chavruta2000]

some of these kids would benefit from extended family mentoring. Cousins, aunts and uncles can provide the love, but also less emotionally loaded and a whole lot more perspective and normalization.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

So true! A big part of the problem is people moving far from extended family.

[@ny4nk0]

Adults do not cut off their parents for frivolous reasons. Ask any adult child who has had to cut off their parent and they will tell you just how hard it was and how easy it would be for them to go back - but they know that every time they do it only brings tremendous pain and suffering. This isn't about awkward holidays or annoying relatives. This is about horrendously selfish people who steal from, demean, manipulate and abuse their own children, the people they're supposed to cherish the most. Again, it is VERY HARD to go no contact with the person who raised you, no matter how awful they were. If your child goes no contact, you need to seriously reflect on how you treated them. It is never for no reason. To even suggest such a thing is insane. A child is born loving their parents. A child wants to love their parents, more than anyone in the entire world. If that relationship is broken, it's your fault. You destroyed it, not them.

[@pattayaesl7128]

My mom has been on SSRIs since the 1990s. She will die on them. My brother is 4 years in to an Ativan addiction that has made him an incapacitated invalid. .

[@MaryC-co8fm]

Mother's little helper, as the song goes. Sad for all of you.

[@Andrew-mv2qb]

The feminisation of psychology maybe a contributing factor to the epidemic of rumination

[@MaryC-co8fm]

And focus on feelings. The feminization of society, in the West, at least.

[@amandanichols375]

Crazy Like Us book is worth a read on the trauma-focused therapy model. Could call it reverse NLP / neural retraining

[@debdettman4810]

Thank you for NOT accepting BH as a sponsor. Bad for clients and therapists.

[@RubenFRS]

Abigail really paints the picture of the archetype of the devouring mother, except the mother in this instance is the psychotherapeutic endeavor which, perhaps uncoincidentaly, is a profession dominated by women.

[@vilmarazauskiene1172]

So interedting. My husband studies MA in psichology and his knowledge is the opposite 🤔

[@nevbarnes1034]

"Industrial complex" has become the _phrase du jour_ you tack on the end of anything to make it sound sinister.

[@Tectenitarius]

Where is the inbuilt non-perverse financial incentive in any industrial complex? Be it in Big Pharma, Big Tech, Military and in this case Big Psych (Mental Health)?

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

I don't appreciate you contributing to the comment industrial complex, stop pushing your unnecessary product on me despite compromising my health.

[@blindtrace7220]

Exposure therapy with my neighbor 's pitpull would have not worked out well.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Try again.

[@lauracooskey9481]

I have not been to Vietnam myself, so perhaps this is an exaggeration. But friends who have travelled there from the U.S. tell me that even among old folks, there is no dwelling on the war, no fixation on the past-- and nobody's in therapy! They all know that almost everyone went through hell, a hell we can't even imagine in a country not impacted by a war on our own turf in a long, long time. The Vietnamese do not sit around comparing their relative hells. They look to the future. I believe that in most cases, this is the best way forward. Now perhaps it is the very fact that it was a shared agony that means nobody feels singled out by cruel fate; maybe a misunderstood modern American, who feels very unique and has never been able to express why, actually does have a greater need of therapy than someone whose entire culture went through massive death and destruction. (Granted, that war was over 50 years ago, and there are many young Vietnamese for whom it is as distant as World War I was to Baby Boomers; but i have heard that even in the 1970s, the Vietnamese-- perhaps Buddhist or Asian-in-general?-- way was to accept the past philosophically, as an unchangeable, and to focus on a brighter future.) If it works in that situation, imagine how well it might work for someone whose worst tragedy has been a boyfriend dropping them or a mother disapproving of their clothing choices!

[@billusher2265]

Interview Carole Hooven

[@jellyrcw12]

14:04, omg that is what I always thought!!

[@mikedowning4869]

'If there is hope, it is with the proles ' G Orwell (coz they can't afford this crap) 😅

[@TaylorVocke]

I agree largely with what Abigail is saying here, but would like to push back a little on the idea of kids of divorced parents being "well" and not needing some sort of therapy. We went through a long period of saying how "resilient" kids were, how they'd totally bounce back when their parents got divorced and when they re-married. It doesn't seem that that's true at all. If the family unit is the building block and basic unit of society that provides stability, then its shattering would have a profound impact on children. The family unit is the first model for society - it's the first and primary place children learn values, how to relate to others, etc. while their brains are still developing. Divorce and the splitting of the family unit (along with the drama and ugliness that so often comes with it) is shattering to a child's worldview.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

I agree with you. The research by Judith Wallerstein shows that children are highly impacted and harmed by divorce, especially if there isn't violence, drugs, or any other extreme situation requiring that the family split up. Also see the book, The Closing of the American Mind.

[@penfro]

Does the book deal with stoicism? As I understand it, stoics don’t seek happiness, but contentment. I think that is psychologically more stable. One can be content, as in accepting, with the fact that a parent has foibles which are annoying in some way. One can be more emotionally resilient when able to accept a situation which is less than ‘happy’.

[@spiff1]

Stoicism is a masculine thing, which is toxic apparently

[@cynthiajohnson9412]

I gotta say this total disregard for the needs of the group as a whole, as illustrated by the story of the screaming child on the plane has been a sore spot with me for decades. Twenty years ago I lived in a semi-urban neighborhood where the kids 'playing' outdoor routinely, and I mean daily, would scream at the top of their lungs outside my windows. Drove me nearly mad. I'd love it if Abigail would explain that humans are neurologically designed to be to have their brains scrambled by screaming. For a sensitive person, screaming is like an ice pick in the eye. Screaming is supposed to elicit a highly emotional and urgent response to a perceived crisis. And not at all to be used as a run-of-the-mill means of self expression. And my mother taught us this when we were young. We were not allowed to play games that involved yelling and screaming, out of deference to the neighbors. But, I can remember once as a kid playing in the backyard with my sisters on a see saw shaped like a boat and we were pretending the ship was sinking and shouting out 'help, help'. My mother came flying, wild-eyed out of the house thinking she was gonna find a kid with a severed limb and was furious to discover we were 'playing'. We were instructed in no uncertain terms to never call for help unless we really needed help. And people wonder why communities as a whole have become so desensitized to genuine cries for help. Well, we literally have children screaming wolf every day, it's no wonder people don't even look out the window anymore. P.S. People talk endlessly about 'triggers' , well screaming is by design the trigger of all triggers. It's mean to be impossible to ignore, and yet in our brain-dead era a large part of the population has managed to tune it out. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on the effect of anti-anxiety meds on the decoupling of the normal human brain responses to stimuli like screaming. Cause something is for sure disrupting the evolutionary fail-safe systems humans come packaged with.

[@johnstewart7025]

Isn't social emotional learning also explaining to children how to work with others?

[@spiff1]

explaining dont mean shit, u gotta go by example.. SEL is Woke drivel anyway

[@riznooo]

I hate how if ur labeled as depressed ur now depressed for life. Happiness is a emotional state. Be content is as close as u get 2 being happy. U need 2 be content first. That being i have food roof and basic need. After then every extra is a bonus ur life. The idea of a state of perpetual bliss isnt realistic. Be happy is a simple choice when it comes down 2 it. I ev been depressed and after awile u get over it. And life get s better. Then it might happen again. People do need help. But ur attitude towards ether keeps u trapped or u can pull ur self out of it. I never heard a DR. Ur cured...or wait getting off the meds can be bad..so ur stuck. Most med for depression and ssri. Lower ur life expectancy.

[@spiff1]

Contentment/fulfillment is the goal, not happiness, which is fleeting

[@Eng4555]

soon enough you will say everybody has mental issue so it is ok! it is ok there are professionals who have been trained to take control of those with issue on mental health

[@wendellbabin6457]

33:02 I wonder too, what EXACTLY are the qualifications, hell even the job REQUIREMENTS of these school staff psychologists? Or not even, more likely school counselors? The issues they are discussing sound like clinical level. Not some hack that with only a BS that barely passed that. Whose father in law is on the school board hiring committee.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

28:40 LP identifies arbitrariness and hypocrisy, *drops mic, drinks tea*

[@chavruta2000]

This is why Animal Assisted Therapy and play therapy are better for children. Children don't have the verbal/intellectual/emotional capacity for talk therapy.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

No animal assisted therapy. Children have an instinctive fear of dogs, and they should retain that. There are several million reported dog bites each year in the US alone that need medical attention, most of them towards children, and many severe and disfiguring bites to the face. Millions more bites and attacks are never reported. I know that you will respond that animals used in therapy are friendly. But any dog can turn on you, especially towards children with sudden movements, and children should learn to be very careful around dogs.

[@chavruta2000]

@MaryC-co8fm thats ridiculous. Mans best friend. Cant hide from nature. Children do not have instinctive fear of animals. A trained dog is safe.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

@@chavruta2000 Friends don't bite and mutilate children in the face like millions of dogs do a year. Friend growing up: Lip bit off by dog. She was a beautiful girl until her face was mutilated. Friend at age 15: 12 stitches in the face where dog tore off her lip (friendly family dog). An acquaintance: in the hospital for two weeks for reconstructive surgery for dog attack; close friend; her own dog bit off her lip and reconstructive surgery. Man's best enemy, esp to children, who often stick their faces in the dog's face. Statistics don't lie.

[@jstone5239]

Does this come from an overbearing feminine instinct?

[@spiff1]

the infantilisation of the Western soyciety

[@carolyna.869]

The Frankfurt School dramatically changed American culture when they were expelled from Germany and found a home in American academia. The influence of Freud has been profound. He and the psychology and sociology fields have sought to undermine American values and cohesion. American values of stoicism, hard work, diligence, duty, honor, respect for elders etc. were vilified as being part of an authoritarian personality. The Jewish scholars were constant critics of the virtues that made our country great. In the 1960s the overwhelming majority (over 90%) of people seeking psychotherapy were from this religious minority. If you live by Christian morals and traditions, you don't need psychotherapy. Today the culture of constantly castigating American history and the never ending therapy culture pervades every inch of American schools and is creating petulant, self-absorbed lazy people.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

AMEN! Best comment ever. Freud hated Christianity and wanted to create an alternative to the confessional. He called Christians infantile. When he and Jung came to the US for the one and only time, Freud reportedly said to Jung, "They think that we are bringing them a gift. But we are bringing them the plague." The Frankfurt School's own literature stated that their goal was to corrupt the West so badly that it stinks. Mission accomplished. Their techniques were to undermine the family, promote sex education in the schools, feminize men, encourage women to work, and promote homosexuality.

[@skylinefever]

If being raised by Christians worked, reddit wouldn't have gotten the most miserable of those people.

[@charliemilroy6497]

The therapist should psychoanalyze why the patient is going to therapy.

[@skylinefever]

I always saw it as corporate motivational garbage. Some pros just add the gaslight effect. Holy men often take corporate motivational BS and just sprinkle in God and Jesus references.

[@Eng4555]

Mrs Perry , dont you think you getting a bit extreme> soon enough you probably say has mental issue and that is not accurate neither true

[@linguo567]

worlds upside down

[@spiff1]

the patriarchy is being smashed

[@jones2277]

I wonder why you brought up Megan Markle instead of Princess Diana who cried to the media about her problems. Where was that stiff British upper lip?

[@SA-vz7qi]

I wonder if Louise sees the same naratives pished by therapy culture about victimhood being pushed by feminism on women. Is there a recognition of the harm that does? I suspect she does see it with racial victim movement's, but does she see it in movements where she chooses to adopt the lable?

[@rheannak3934]

Please stop speaking in such hushed tones.

[@eqapo]

How does Abigail know what each and every therapist session is like? I just wish she would tell a first person story at least from her personal testimony or retelling of someone else. But it looks like Abigail herself could use some therapy

[@DK-tq3fy]

She doesn't. And she isn't against therapy. Just many people do not need it.

[@silenciowatford]

shame about the religion ad

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

"Many of you already know, that I drank the Jesus juice. My friend also drank the Jesus juice, and conducts a Jesus workshop. Come get baptized, and also tatted-up, all the cool kids are doing it, it's the bee's knees".

**Nurturing/maintaining/uplifting with Emotional/Physical/Mental Health Benefits: #1) Earthing aka Grounding: (KZbin: DOWN TO EARTH | The Earthing Movie 15 min Short Film by Earthing) -> Mar 13, 2020. QUOTE - "The good thing about grounding is that you don't need a Doctor to tell you to do it. You do not need a Physician to recommend it to you. You can try this anytime. It is your birthright because you live on the earth." - Dr. Laura Koniver, MD The Intuition Physician. #2) Hearth-based craft Knitting: (KZbin: Mental Health Monday: Knitting Circles to relieve Stress by KCAL News). #3) Japanese Shinrin-yoku aka "Forest Bathing": ( KZbin: Forest Therapy: Connecting with nature - with Vicky Kyan by EnSoul). #4) Hearth-based craft Herbalism.: (KZbin: The Herbalist's Path: Affordable Healthcare for Your Home & Community with Rosemary Gladstar by Rosemary Gladstar's Science & Art of Herbalism). QUOTE - "Herbal Medicine is People's Medicine. It's the Medicine of the People, by the People, and for the People. Herbal Medicine is the Medicine that grows right at your backdoor." - Servant Leader/Wise Woman/Wildcrafter/Herbalist Susun Weed. SONG - (KZbin: Rising Appalachia- Medicine [Official Music Video] by Jeremy Jensen). -Kitchen Witchery's Hearth-based craft Nourishing Herbal Infusions: (KZbin: The ULTIMATE Guide to Nourishing Herbal Infusions [FULL CLASS] by HerbRally). -Kitchen Witchery's Hearth-based craft Tea Blending: (KZbin: A Healthy Herbal Alternative to Juice ~ Herbal Kool Aid by Spiraea Herbs) -> Nurturing/maintaining/uplifting Patriotic Symbol "Home Blend" via American Heritage American Revolution Daughters of Liberty. #5) Birdwatching aka Birding aka Bird Therapy aka Ornitherapy: (KZbin: Backyard Birding by Edible Schoolyard Kern County). + (KZbin: Bird Sounds In the Garden by Fairyland Cottage). + (KZbin: BIRD BATH CAMERA. Birds at a watering in the spring forest. by Wildlife World). + (KZbin: The Tie that Binds | Rosalie Edge, Conservation, and Women's Suffrage by Hawk Mountain Sanctuary). #6) Social Horticultural Therapy: (KZbin: Lunchbox Talk: Therapeutic Horticulture - A Gateway to Healing & Connection with the Natural World by NC Botanical Garden). + (KZbin: Building Fairy Houses with Liza Gardner Walsh by Sunday with Sarah) -> BOOK: The Fairy House Handbook by Liza Gardner Walsh. #7) Water: (KZbin: One Hour Relaxing Stream Sounds by Fairyland Cottage). SONG - (KZbin: Water Blessing by Radiant Heart Song Circle With Julie Blue). **FOOD SECURITY: "Food security is not in the supermarket. It's not in the government. It's not at the emergency services division. ...food was in homes, gardens, local fields and forests." - Joel Salatin. -ELIMINATE Security Threat Liability "Land of Plenty" America's yearly $165 billion + Food Waste Crisis aka Fiasco via Rob Greenfield ignored by FAILED financially wasteful Anti-Feminist Patriarchal Republican's/Christian Nationalist's "Workfare" yearly $120 billion SNAP via Heritage Foundation’s 1995 Public Law 104-193, Project 2025. #1) PERSONAL PROPERTY PRIVATE HOME Matriarchal Symbol of Wealth Kitchen Gardens aka "Personal Agriculture" - 1) Angela Baker's Parkrose Permaculture with Radical Homemaking by Feminist Shannon Hayes. 2) Colette O'Neill's Bealtaine Cottage Goddess Gardens and Food Forest with Hearthcraft by Arin Murphy-Hiscock. SONGS - (KZbin: AURORA - The Seed by AURORA). & (KZbin: Our Street | Formidable Vegetable | Permaculture Kids Retrosuburbia Music Video by Formidable Vegetable). -EXAMPLE Surplus (Supply > Demand) of regionally adapted heirloom/heritage open-pollinated Seeds and Cuttings - "Better than a bag of produce, seeds and cuttings from the successful plants in our gardens can supply others with the capacity not only to eat but to grow." - ARTICLE: What Fair Share Can Mean in the Permaculture Community by Jonathon Engels. LESSON LEARN FROM Iraq Heritage American Occupation Paul Bremer's Order 81 via Dahlia Wasfi. #2) CIVIC HEARTH HOME/NEST/HOUSEHOLD COMMUNITY SCHOOL GARDENS - Alice Waters's Edible Schoolyard Project. #3) CIVIC HEARTH HOME/NEST/HOUSEHOLD COMMUNITY GARDENS - 1) Mark Lakeman's Communitecture Food Forest. 2) Gretchen Mead's Victory Garden Initiative. -(KZbin: Food is free | Growing fruit and vegies | Gardening Australia by Gardening Australia).

[@Arven8]

Retired psychologist here. Just wanted to add, we've known since the 70s that psychotherapy can have damaging effects. It happens in about 10% of cases. It's well documented in the therapy outcome literature. Referred to as "deterioration effects," you would see them -- back in the 70s -- associated with encounter groups, especially the more confrontative types, the ones designed to break down people's defenses and get them to be more "open." That made a lot of people worse. Deterioration effects are also predictably seen when therapists cross boundaries to meet their own needs (as Dr. Melfi did in the Sopranos, btw. She also did a lot of other things wrong, but actual therapy for panic disorder would make a boring show). I am flabbergasted to learn about how "therapy culture" is infecting kids, but I see it in adults, too, so I'm not surprised. Everything is a "trauma"... No it's not a trauma, it's a bad thing that happened. Bad, painful things happen in life. Calling these things "traumas" is both infantalizing to the patients and insulting to people with real trauma.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

Why don't psychologists support more natural and actually beneficial therapy such as time outdoors hiking or Forest therapy, or taking up outdoor sports? And healthy nutrition?

[@lucydayLucida]

@@wyleecoyotee4252 General practioners don't either. The things that actually help have been overlooked. Maybe because they're not commodities?

[@Arven8]

@@wyleecoyotee4252 Some do.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

@lucydayLucida In the UK it's recognized as valid treatment now to suggest those things. Outdoor activities, excercise, healthy dietary habits. Even just daily walking is beneficial. It's a disservice to people to not suggest drug free healthier alternatives. Guess sucks for healthcare providers if there's no kickbacks from the drug companies.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

RIP to ACTUAL clinical psychology, 1980-2010. (Also college).

[@tazldn6463]

Louise really needs to talk to Kathryn Ecclestone who has been writing about this exact same thing happening in the UK for years. Her first book on it came out in 2009!

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

36:50 this part is correct and important, I always argue that this is not a reason to abandon Classical Liberalism, it's an argument for retaining communities especially at the local level, without forgoing the broader liberal social structure, thus having the best of both worlds. I often refer lately to the Hicks vs Orr Triggernometry debate. Orr is good, I'm just not a Conservative myself, not even a Burkian, I appreciate them most among the contingent. I'm pretty much a fellow Millian, and big fan of Hicks. Classical Liberals weren't correct abt everything, science shows ideas like "blank slate" are completely wrong, individuals and agency are like superstitious notions according to the latest findings. But, this is where Hicks shines, the argument is that for legal purposes, all these sort of heuristic designations are highly adaptive and useful. An appeal to mere utility? Reducible to pragmatism? Not exactly, and I can't succinctly recapitulate Hicks's argument here, but I agree.

[@highjack7517]

Kudos to y’all for having the stones to forward and talk about toxic therapy.

[@carnivorewisdom]

Indeed! #seektruth @carnivorewisdom

[@mcbits580]

Great talk! I laughed out loud when one of the ads that cut your talk was for Better Help 😂

[@hkaayaakuu]

Yay Abigail is back 😀

[@wearelightbeings]

I have been helped by therapy, but it took me going through 3 different therapists before finding the right one. I was having full blown panic attacks where I couldn’t speak and could barely breathe a few times a week, as a 30 year old woman. Super scary, I decided I needed help. The first therapists I went to wanted to immediately diagnose me with panic disorder and give me meds. I was adamant I didn’t want meds and they kept asking me, so I left. Finally I found a therapist that ignored my “diagnosis”, never mentioned meds, and helped me learn cognitive behavioral therapy to love and accept my anxious self rather than fear it. Years later and I still panic every once in a while, but it doesn’t control me like it used to. I don’t identify with having any condition or diagnosis, because that makes me feel like a helpless victim. Sometimes my body gets anxious and panics, and I have all the tools in my toolbox to deal with it when it happens. I no longer fear a panic attack and that’s all thanks to CBT. It’s just a part of my life I deal with from time to time, not my identity, and I had so many therapists try to make it my identity and medicate me. I love Abigail!

[@Rick_Cleland]

Same thing happened to me starting at twenty-one with full-blown panic attacks that seem to last days / weeks. I also refused benzos and SSRIs, it took me several years to help control the anxiety to some extent. I'm thirty-nine now and the anxiety is still there, but if I woke up tomorrow without _any_ anxiety, I'd think there was something seriously wrong with me.

[@Itsstuff7328]

CBT helped me too. Severe depression and was having intrusive thoughts of self harm. Equally scary. Had talk therapy with therapists who wanted to medicate me, even got myself into debt in an attempt to get myself out of it. But within 2 months with a no-nonsense therapist and CBT I was no longer s**cidal. Still working on other issues, but I don't think I'm able danger to myself anymore

[@wearelightbeings]

@@Itsstuff7328Intrusive thoughts can be so scary and debilitating. I dealt with those too, not related to self harm, but my mind would play scenarios of my kids drowning or being hit by a car etc.. then I would panic and fear would take over. We are not our thoughts! CBT really helped me take control over what goes through my mind. And it was lots of hard work and a long process. People just want the easy med fix, which is only a bandaid and doesn’t fix the issue. I was like I wanna be ok, I don’t want to be medicated. And thankfully I found the right therapist after lots of trial and error. But I’m an adult, kids shouldn’t be drowned in therapy for trivial issues such as a break up or some minor bullying or identity crisis. It’s very well known ruminating in your bad thoughts is extremely harmful. It’s insane they’re doing this to kids!

[@LucielStarz123]

@@Itsstuff7328 what kind of skills did you specifically learn in the CBT that you would consider to have helped you?

[@Itsstuff7328]

@@LucielStarz123 It helped me realize when I was in an obsessive loop. It helped me realize which thoughts were constructive/nourishing/toward health... And which thoughts were likely to make me feel bad. It helped me be fair to myself, rather than saying "Always, never, completely, etc" I started to think about myself more fairly. But I think it went so fast because I KNEW I felt bad and wanted to feel better. I think it would still work if I didn't know I felt bad. It shows you there are other ways to look at things. There is a book I used for the exercises (it is extremely dated so I don't know if it's worth it overall) called "Feeling Good". You don't need a therapist to try it.

[@christopher_ecclestone]

Apparently men's su!cide rate being higher than women's is slightly misleading. My understanding is that more women attempt it, but more men are successful in their attempts. So, that would tie in with what's being discussed here.

[@Rick_Cleland]

Yes, because men choose methods that ensure that they are successful.

[@Jack-ns9sz]

It's a bit more complicated than that. The biggest predictor of suicide attempts are previous attempts. It's a bit hard to have further attempts if you have been successful first time. Suicide attempt data records multiple suicide attempts by the same person. I'd say that actual suicides are higher than what we know too. It's possible that what we think were accidents, such as a motor vehicle hitting a tree and the driver being killed are actually suicides.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

Men's is 3.9x than women.

[@spiff1]

ya radfem p1g@@wyleecoyotee4252

[@spiff1]

the first factual thing youve ever said Wylee, well done, I'm impressed@@wyleecoyotee4252

[@GraceHarwood88]

The people with immense traumas who really need the therapy are usually therapy resistant because they know those floodgates are better left shut, lest they and everyone the love drown. They’ve spent a lifetime battening down that particular hatch. Those without trauma are going looking for trouble to feed, to explain their lack of motivation for life, to the advancement of the therapists pockets more than anything else.

[@wendellbabin6457]

18:00 What if your parent is abusive. Or alcoholic or addict or something? Or in and out of jail? A LOT of folks are generations deep into dysfunction. Where YA turn, then?

[@lisaratley4858]

My sons married into a religious family that’s very controlling… and suddenly I was a bad parent. I suspect it’s because I don’t go to church and act like I believe something I don’t believe.

[@shenmue249]

"The proponents of these ideas make a lot of headway by slipping between metaphor and actual science." Absolutely spot on by Abigail.

[@nicholasboeder1958]

I agree with all of this. And as a 20-year Social Worker who has done some of the most amazing work with young people (incredible wilderness, experiential and empowered-focus treatment), this is why I am motivated more than ever to do great work. I often encourage parents to ramp down the therapy, seek to break down the language of diagnosis and the pathology that happens and to always build client resiliency. Therapy should be a relatively brief, impactful bridge to greater health.

[@jellyrcw12]

Wow, I'm so glad I stumbled across this podcast! I was a child in therapy, on and over for years. I had to go therapy when I was very young due to my parent's divorce. And I feel like it was very ineffective and didn't really discuss what I needed help with, but no one could help me really because both my parents have mood disorders. Then I went again around 17 for depression. It helped at first but then my family made me keep going against my will even though I was feeling better. When Dr. John Delony said that most people need stronger relationship and purpose instead of therapy, he was right on the money!

[@FunkyMunky-w2m]

Everyone is emotionally damaged and toxic, that's the revelation humanity needs to have at this point😂 Including the people doing all the cutting off. Then we can all get back go accepting each other and a more healthy socially connected society🙃 It's called GRACE. In order to have grace, people need to have humility

[@jotsandtittles]

Ask open-ended questions and then let your guest answer and pontificate. Don't say, "You say in your book that ...... blah blah blah, and blah blah blah..... Why is that?" The best interviewers ask incisive questions and then get out of the way.

[@jollygoode4153]

Therapy is helpful if it helps you understand your family including understandiung their limitations and understanding that they wont understand if you cut them off, no matter how you explain it to them and they will never forgive you. I had a therapist who never said to me cut off your family, but he talked alot about how he had cut off his family, so sadly that message got through because he didnt understand what he was doing by relaying those examples to a fairly impressionable young adult. I had another therapist who said to me, you can't cut off your roots and expect to thrive. I think that was better advice. The exceptions are families where there is alot of violence and even sexual violence and it simply isnt safe to be there. Life is hard when there is no-one to share christamas with, wish you a happy birthday or celebrate a success or even simple reminiscing about good moments from childhood. It is a big mistake to choose that life if you really don't have to.

[@Tom_Wolf_]

The vast majority of trauma can only be effected on a child until age 8 because of how their emotions and brain develop. Most traumatic events if not all go back to childhood, its a reliving of something that happened that didn't get resolved. When you get triggered, its because the trauma has resurfaced but you cover it up with addictions instead of going into it and resolving. But we are not taught how to resolve trauma.

[@toddgabrielson1924]

Key point: immigrants coming to America tend to have better mental health than native born Americans ❤

[@toddgabrielson1924]

You both raise similar concerns with too much therapy and the harm it does to kids.

[@JasonDouglasRalph67]

I tried two different psychologists after having what we used to call a "nervous breakdown", both made me worse.The first one sat and listened to me for a few sessions then said that I needed to see a psychiatrist because he couldn't help me, I had to wait for three months with no relief to get an appointment with the psychiatrist recommended by my GP and my mental state further deteriorated. The psychiatrist diagnosed me with PTSD and prescribed medication, Escitalopram and Valium, which were just starting to work by the time I finally got in to see the next psychologist, who, while giving me some insight into my now almost hourly anxiety attacks, decided that triggering me and getting me to do breathing exercises and work through the symptoms was the way to go. I recommend the SSRI, it's been a godsend for me, I wish I'd had it 30 years ago when all my problems started, but therapy isn't for me, all that talking about it did was intensify the symptoms.

[@carolyna.869]

You don't need drugs. It sounds like you had a psycho-spiritual crisis that you still have not dealt with. Instead of growing, you are doping.

[@jennybardoville5455]

Things grow where attention goes, so it's no wonder things tend to worsens while one is in therapy.

[@danielmaher964]

Such an important conversation

[@darianbalcom8777]

It's such a lazy, comfortable and - most importantly - totally UNACCOUNTABLE way to make a living. No wonder so many people have gravitated to it.

[@happydog6537]

I loved listening to Abigail talk to Bridget, who is so obsessed with herself and thinking and talking about herself and her therapist and she married a therapist. Abigail, talking to her about the dangers of therapy was so funny. Telling her that you need to get out of your own head. That’s all Bridget does is think and talk about herself. Oh, and also demonizes marijuana as if that was her problem.check it out. It’s a good watch hypocritical. If anyone needs to get out of their own head, it’s Bridget phetasy she married a therapist.

[@paulfroelich1024]

Hear ya, like Bridget regardless.

[@mrnoknowncure]

People also use their ‘trauma’ - for which almost anything seems to qualify - as a means of absolving responsibility and accountability, so being seen to be a ‘trauma carrier’ is actually incentivised, as it carries with it certain benefits.

[@spiff1]

and they think they can then treat everyone else like shit

[@LawSuth]

#JerryMarzinsky

[@livin2themusick]

❤‍🔥❤‍🔥❤‍🔥❤‍🔥

[@sambucca1817]

In the first 5 mins of this vid, there was an ad for the therapy that you say never advertise on your channel. LOL.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Lol, *needs adblocker.

[@shenmue249]

She was referring to podcast sponsors, the pod can't control what ads Google is targeting you with on videos.

[@sambucca1817]

@@shenmue249 LOL. I know. I thought it was hilarious.

[@TaylorVocke]

I've been in therapy for 2 years now (started at 27). It's been immensely helpful. That said, I think this heavily depends on the character of the therapist, and there just aren't that many good ones out there, unfortunately. I'm a Catholic and sought out a Catholic therapist. His goal has always been secure attachment, interior freedom rooted in love/trust in God, self-efficacy, and tolerating discomfort. Affirmation and exploring areas of hurt are valuable in therapy, but only with the purpose of moving forward, not constantly ruminating. This culture of over-affirmation and avoiding discomfort I think is part of what's killing the effectiveness of therapy.

[@TaylorVocke]

It's also SUPER important to find someone whose goal is to get you out of their room eventually. Two weeks ago, I decided to reduce the number of sessions with my therapist, and he encouraged it. His reasoning was exactly what it should be about - learning to stand on my own with the confidence that I have the tools now to make it.

[@jaseman]

The topic is an interesting one, however at the beginning you talk about 'The Christian message' so you lose a lot of credibility with me for believing in Holy Ghosts.

[@littleboots9800]

It's about understanding ourselves and our culture. I didn't hear her even express belief. Anyway, ppl like you lose credibility when you suggest a person's religious beliefs rule out their ability to have interesting or thought provoking things to say. Very narrow minded.

[@MaryC-co8fm]

Christians don't believe in "Holy Ghosts." God is a Trinity: that is, Father, Son (Christ) and the Holy Spirit (aka Holy Ghost). When Christ left this world for His Father in Heaven, Christ left us the helper, which is the Holy Spirit, who will guide and inform us throughout our lives. So we are never alone.

[@skylinefever]

People lose credibility because not everybody is able to believe it all.

[@richardmcmichael9329]

Jesus is the Lord and healer …. We allow god to work through us …. We are not the healer …

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Praise the Lorde, feelin' good on a Wednesday.

[@intrusive-th0t]

This conversation feels a bit self-indulgent because both of the speakers agree so uncritically and don’t really do anything to challenge each other’s points or offer other perspectives… so much fawning over conservative parenting styles, not enough consideration for how encouraging kids (and adults) to talk about problems allows for abuse to come to light and for positive social changes (the second wave feminist movement was born out of consciousness-raising sessions where women “trauma dumped” together)