The Messed Up Origins of The Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe

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▼ Timestamps ▼
» 0:00 - Little Old Woman - Not a Nice Lady
» 2:15 - The Rhymes
» 6:45 - The Theories
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▼ Credits ▼
» Researched by: Steven Merrell / stevenmerrell5
» Edited by: Mary Tuck & Jon Solo
» Written & Directed by: Jon Solo
▼ Resources ▼
» my favorites: messeduporigins.com/books
Gammer Gurton's Garland: www.google.com/books/edition/...
A-Loffeing Possible Definition: dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolv...
Shoe-Throwing at Weddings: books.google.com/books?id=VYM...
» Theory 1: allnurseryrhymes.com/there-wa...
» Theory 2: nurseryrhymesmg.com/rhymes/th...
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#messeduporigins #nurseryrhymes #folklore #NativePartner #Deodorant #AluminumFree

[@JonSolo]

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[@VickyShawcooksalot]

Might have to try that spray. I can't use the stick deodorant. So maybe I can use the spray.

[@Relcilisity2012]

Cool

[@ArtingFromScratch]

My thought would have been queen Anne... she had and lost like 17children

[@ricknick5318]

Well my common Sense dictates Oloffen forgive me if I misspelled means playing around

[@pierrebuieii3908]

Thanks Jon I thought this was just a story

[@gakailyn9249]

I always thought that it didn't make sense that an old woman could have so many young children. I never thought the children were hers biologically. I thought she ran an orphanage and the rythme was about what orphanages were like.

[@carriehanifen3434]

Me also

[@coyotech55]

Makes sense.

[@hackman669]

That's deeo!😅

[@cheahbuddy6146]

Especially in those days, there's no way in hell she had even more then 4 biological kids, and she would've lost a lot more before she got there unfortunately.

[@0joshdude]

U not seen 12 kids and counting

[@LowKoLissa]

There was an old woman who lived in a house. She had 6 kids but one had moved out. She fed them all well, and tended their needs. But Mama damn sure was smoking some weed.

[@goober112]

😂 nursery rhyme of the 2020s 😂

[@TheDmaj7th]

300 years from now, Jon Solo’s descendant will do a messed up origins of this 😂😂😂

[@pinkrebellionxyz1567]

Me when I have kids😂😂😂

[@davidryan834]

Damn my Mom's gonna be excited to know after all of these years she finally got a nursery rhyme. 🤣 🤣

[@bambinakeke]

Im gonna memorize this for when I have kids 😂😂😂😂😂

[@wordforger]

0:46 The version I heard as a kid: "There was an old woman who lived in a shoe who had so many children she didn't know what to do. So she fed them all gruel, without any bread, and whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed." Have also heard "kissed them all sweetly" but am pretty sure that's the nicer version.

[@aubreymarie1575]

Same. I grew up on the whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed.

[@tarawalker7193]

Same. I'm like, what version was HE listening to?!?

[@056561022]

Same. I think we came from an alternate universe tho.

[@FairyNiamh1977]

Same.

[@tearalewis7532]

Yes! This is the one I know too, it was in an old mother goose book of times I got as a baby way back in the 70s,...still have the book, and read it to my kiddo when he was real small. I never even knew the "nice" one.

[@youareherediversity7321]

I learnt it as: there was an old woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she didn’t know what to do, so she gave them some broth without any bread then whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed. I hadn’t heard the sanitised version with bread and kissing. It was a nursery rhyme about poverty to me

[@miketalley5476]

I remember when it was common to tie old shoes and tin cans to the back bumper of a newlywed's car, as they drove away from the church.

[@missanne2908]

Me too. I didn't realize how old I was until Jon said he hadn't heard of the tradition.

[@jaidamwhi4589]

Which is weird cuz i thought Jon and I were around the same age and i know about it 😂

[@SnyperMK2000JclL]

I too didn't know about the old shoes, but tin cans for sure... iv hooked up a few dozen cans a handful of times for my uncle and some cousins... shoes though I don't get, those belong tied together and thrown over a power line in the middle of an intersection... xD

[@Meela9088]

I think I’ve heard of it and maybe it was a thing when I was a kid? I know Ed edd n eddy made fun of it. I’m born in 2000

[@lq8242]

I've never seen anyone actually do it, but it is common enough in pop culture that it is crazy to me he never heard of it (Edit: the can part... I didn't know about the shoes)

[@ArtTasticCreations]

A lot of fairytales were rather dark and morbid and many didn't have happy endings as they were meant to serve as a warning for children. Also the concept of a happy ending is a modern concept. This is why a lot of stories in mythology and from very ancient civilizations rarely had a happy ending. They were meant to reflect the brutal realities of daily life.

[@hollyhartwick3832]

Yeah, I've read the English translation of the original Grimm tales. Those brothers were demented. They needed some serious therapy, and maybe some heavy medication.

[@ArtTasticCreations]

@@hollyhartwick3832 That was a fairly common way of telling myths, fables and legends for thousands of years. Happy endings are actually more of a modern concept. A lot of old stories from different areas of Asia and the Middle East and India also rarely have happy endings. Even when you look at Native American mythology/ tribal mythology from around the world, many of these stories rarely have a happy ending either. In fact in many parts of the world it's still not common to have a happy ending, even in like television or movies or books or comics.

[@hollyhartwick3832]

@@ArtTasticCreations - Oh, I know. I was partly joking, but the Grimm brothers' tales were especially dark, twisted and gory. Dismemberment, disemboweling and other such, and they wrote a lot of them. Seems a bit disturbed.

[@ArtTasticCreations]

@@hollyhartwick3832 They were indeed. But this was also pretty normal storytelling in many parts of Europe (especially Germany) and many of the the Slavic countries so it makes sense why many are so dark/ eerie.

[@hollyhartwick3832]

@@ArtTasticCreations - Definitely. Dark tales from all over. If you look at the real world mythology the creatures from the The Witcher are based on, or stories of child-killing, or blood-sucking demons from ancient times, like Baba Yaga, Abyzou, Lilith, the rakshasa, and many other such entities, fear was pervasive. Before science, horrifying monsters were the de facto explanation for tragedy. Not surprising at all that many old stories are quite dark. Some are more extreme than others, but it's still an overall common phenomenon.

[@racookster]

I was a child in the 'sixties, and the version I heard was closest to the earliest one: "...so she gave them some broth without any bread / And she spanked them all soundly and sent them to bed." I figured it was an insulting, classist rhyme about a promiscuous poor woman, her bastard children, and negligent, abusive parenting - but maybe it was just normal parenting in the 16th century.

[@Thegraylady]

I always thought it was a widow. We had that same version but the illustration was bunnies…who were mostly all chaotic- jumping on the bed, swinging on the lamp, etc. I felt slightly badly for the mom, who looked absolutely frazzled, but I also felt she was being a bit unfair. There was no way she knew every bunny deserved a spank!

[@PrettysureyouneedaHug]

​@@Thegraylady I think it meant a gentle kind of spank. My Momma, Aunts and Grandma used to do that to us to put us to sleep just repeatedly spank us gently and we would be snoring in minutes.

[@soreloser18]

A warm bath a full belly and an ass whooping are grate ways to fall asleep

[@Druklet]

Born in the 80s and that's pretty much the version I knew. I think it may have been 'boxed all their ears' or something like that. I wondered if we were going to learn she was a baby-farmer.

[@user-um4un4zd7b]

@@PrettysureyouneedaHug The adverb "soundly" kind of makes me doubt that 😅

[@angellahanson8343]

The word Coffin has another meaning back in the colonial days; a coffin was a pasty crust. Maybe she was going out for food and she came home to find the kids goofing off?

[@brettjohnson536]

Maybe, although she did just beat them all on the head with a stick, lol

[@rrgoodwill2914]

Interesting idea! Your comment about "goofing off" makes me wonder if maybe the word Jon couldn't find a definition for is the root of "loafing" (being lazy)?

[@bubblemum]

I've loved this version from MAD magazine sometime in the early 70's- There was an old woman who lived in a shoe She had so many children she didn't know what to do Her doc prescribed pills but they cost too much loot So she's still having kids but she's moved to a boot.

[@jojoone1099]

I loved MAD magazine.

[@AphroditeLee]

When I was a kid I asked my mom why did the Woman spank the kids after dinner, before bed and my mom said that it used to be an old practice to "swat a kid's bottom" before bed because it would make them cry... which, in turn, would cause them to cry themselves to sleep QUICKER than just putting them to bed ESPECIALLY if their bellies were not full... WOW. I know, right...

[@pamelamays4186]

When I was in kindergarten in 1964, in my classroom they was a wooden Little Old Woman Who Lived In A Shoe playset that was supposed to help the kids in my class learn how to tie shoes. Every morning as we entered the classroom room, each of us would try to properly tie the big red shoestring that was laced in the toy wooden shoe.

[@maryjoyspohrer256]

Oh, my goodness! I remember that toy!

[@TitularHeroine]

I think we had one of those too!

[@leisachapman6975]

LOL I remember being in preschool in the late sixties, early seventies and there was the same shoe you talk about!

[@I_scribbles]

And they gave up teaching kids to tie a shoe and invented velcro. Now its a bungy strap squeezing across your foot.

[@MaternalUnit]

I had that toy! It was great. I was born in 1964.

[@wirelesmike73]

I always interpreted it as a widowed mother who was so poor she lived in a house so tiny it was compared to living in a shoe. A house too small for her and all her children, more of whom than she could afford to take care of. And, instead of allowing them to slowly starve to death and suffer, she fed them poisoned broth without bread so that there would be nothing to soak up the poison inside their bellies. And, they all went to bed and died peacefully in their sleep.

[@bevmacdonald9008]

😱 I was reading your comment, nodding along, and then ...wham! Poisoned them? Was that version in the Jonestown Book of Parenting and Witness Elimination?

[@vaughneudy3003]

that's where my mind went as well

[@orleansartist6095]

The one I learned There was an old woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she didn't know what to do. So she gave them some broth, without any bread, she whipped them all soundly, and sent them to bed.

[@denisebacher5040]

That’s the one I know

[@PrettysureyouneedaHug]

This is also the version I grew up with. We had a nursery rhyme book full of stories such as this though unfortunately I can't remember where we last put it.

[@stevesmith291]

Me too.

[@azilbean]

That's similar to what I remember

[@ssjup81]

That’s the one I grew up with. I assumed the kids were being bad, so as punishment she didn’t give them bread, like withholding dessert, and spanked them.

[@angelakilpatrick6412]

That nursery rhyme was about me and my 7 crazy a**kids😂😂😂😂

[@FoxofMaysville]

This is what my mother told me about The Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe. She said that it was a way of saying the Old Woman lived on a she string budget. Why her budget was so tight was the number of kids she had. She feed them what little she could, but when the kids cry about being hungry the Old Woman would beat them, then send them to bed.

[@johnking6252]

Sounds right to me. 👍

[@jacobviator3118]

Haha I guess you never asked your mom for a second plate at dinner time after hearing that, huh? 😂😂😂😮😢😢

[@jacobviator3118]

Haha I guess you never asked your mom for a second plate at dinner time after hearing that, huh? 😂😂😂😮😢😢

[@I_scribbles]

No the shoe was from a giant. Spoiler he came back for it! The story gets way more interesting

[@iamjustamomdoingthebestica6999]

NOT the one I grew up with. She was poor, over bred and seemed angry about it. Left with like 10 kids, all under the age of like 9 and alone. Her home was always set apart from the town and she was always way too old to be their mom. I was told she was most likely a government child farmer on a shoe string budget and most likely ate nearly nothing herself. That she may have even been about those old women that killed the kids too.

[@jaidengames26]

When I was little I had a puzzle of the rhyme and heard it but it had different wording and the woman seemed to be a bit more motherly“ There was a old woman who lived in a shoe she had so many children she didn’t know what to do so she fed them some stew without any bread then read them a story and sent them off to bed” Actually I think I’ve heard a couple versions. One where the woman beats her children and one where her children put themselves to bed. Also I found your channel a couple years ago and now I annoy everyone around me with the messed up origins of things.

[@RavynAngelDarck]

Hi Jon, the shoe throwing tradition started with the shoes being thrown at the bride by her parents since they aren't responsible for her anymore. Glad this isn't traditional anymore, my mom had a wicked pitching arm!!

[@Meela9088]

Your mum plays baseball?

[@RavynAngelDarck]

@@Meela9088 she played softball when I was a kid and taught me how to throw a mean fast ball.

[@savidalu193]

@@RavynAngelDarckthat must’ve been fun and terrifying at the same time 😅😂

[@RavynAngelDarck]

@@savidalu193 it was and I'm a fast learner

[@ashb7846]

Grew up with the version “spanked them all soundly and sent them to bed,” and my mom had a friend who had a difficult time as a single mom raising a lot of kids in an apartment, so my child brain assumed the story was about a struggling older single mother or grandmother in some sort of shoe house (I think I imagined a boot house like my storybook illustrated, and figured it was a play on words of a house so small it was like a shoebox) with so many kids it was difficult to feed them, and out of frustration from her situation and their rowdy behavior in a small space she finally lost her cool, spanked them, and sent them to bed so they’d be quiet and still and she’s have a moment of peace. It’s fascinating how we can all take a few lines of something and come up with our own interpretations depending on our introduction and what our situation was when first learning of the tale.

[@galloe8933]

The kids where still “Loafing” means they where still not moving around, just loafing where they had been laying when she left. My cat thinks it’s a cute way of saying “dead”.

[@A_Person5280]

“She gave them some broth without any bread, then whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed”. This was the version I was taught as a child. I remember asking what the children did to be punished, and thought the old women unfair

[@Perepeteia]

Honestly, with how the old nursery rhymes often are, after hearing the "she had so many children, she didn't know what to do" line I was expecting the broth to be laced w poison in the original version

[@mariebelladonna437]

Also, I, too, was raised on the "spanked them all soundly" version. I always took it as a cautionary rhyme. Like, I always though it was created to warn those kids of the olden days, that if they didn't behave, they'd get punished. Spanked and sent to bed without supper. As for the old woman and shoe, I didn't think much into that, as a kid. But, as an adult, I just thought about how families in old times often had many kids (no birth control, religious reasons, etc), and the shoe could be a metaphor, like you said, for a tiny, cramped, dirty living space, which was where a lot of poor families spent their lives. And they often *didn't* know what to do with their big families, and all their kids. Money was often tight, not enough to buy food (broth without bread), and they often didn't have much security, of any kind. So maybe the shoe could represent transient housing/lifestyle, as well. Always traveling, living in temporary housing-like tents, or shacks one built with their hands. And I never thought about the old lady's husband at all, but people died young, in those days. The world was very dangerous. So maybe he died, and left her broke, and trying to raise a bunch of kids (never knew the number, though you said it was eight), and she really *didn't* know what she was gonna do. Just my take, looking at its possible literal representations. But maybe I'm just thinking way too into it, lol.

[@justinbond558]

*That opening line alone is the reason I love this!* Not to mention the fact that he does so much research, and explaining his work, with complete detail, is just amazing!

[@priyankawaghmode1728]

Different versions of this rhyme just feels like different types of mothers and their parenting styles.

[@talvi_shale]

Aged 3 in 1986/87, my nursery rhyme book always read; "There was an old woman who lived in a shoe, She had so many children she didn't know what to do, She gave them some broth without any bread, Then whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed." My daughter born 2002 had exactly the same version. This is UK btw. But i have never in my life heard any of these nicer versions! Strange!

[@dawnstorm9768]

Neither have I!

[@donnagoldsmith7078]

I just love your channel Jon and I just wanted to say that the version I was taught as a child was 'There was an old woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she didn't know what to do. So she gave them some broth without any bread, then whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed.' I've never come across the sweeter version you knew as a child.

[@tessla7675]

My mom used this story to remind my brother's and I, that even though we don't have a lot of money and can't do things others kids we know can, it could always be worse.

[@KayBbyXOXOXO]

“This broad is crazy” “eight kids” Yea, that checks out

[@grapeshot]

The little old lady that lives in a Jordan.

[@Meela9088]

Did Jordan’s exist back then? Lol

[@sandrasaunders8777]

The nursery rhyme book I had as a child had the "whipped them" version in it. I didn't realize that it'd been changed over the years. I just figured that the rhyme just wasn't included in books anymore. Hell, I didn't think kids learned nursery rhymes at all, anymore. It seems old fashioned compared to what kids read these days.

[@mskitten39]

The one I remember is “There once was a woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she didn’t know what to do. She gave them some broth without any bread then whipped them all soundly and sent them off to bed”.

[@TheEmperorInferno]

Jon, I appreciate you so much, every once in a while sprinkling in a nice, nostalgic "remember" for us four weirdos who still care 😁

[@maryjoyspohrer256]

Make that 5! 😆

[@TitularHeroine]

I would sincerely enjoy being part of a group called The Four Weirdos that had five or six members. Or three.

[@TheEmperorInferno]

@@TitularHeroine like the nine pieces of eight

[@ChelleLlewes]

My candidate for the old woman would be Queen Anne. She had seventeen children, although none of them lived. "Kissed themm all fondly and put them to bed," sounds like saying a funereal goodbye...

[@bevmacdonald9008]

I am most familiar with the oldest version, but the bum whopping verse I heard from my Mom is different: "she spanked them all soundly". The explanation I had been told was this: because she had so many mouths to feed and there's no man around, they were very poor. They were so crowded in their small home, it was as if they were horned into a shoe, (as one would horn their feet into shoes). Because "horned in" was commonplace to describe tight quarters, "shoe" became a common term for tiny accommodations. They were too poor and had no meat or vegetables to put into their broth to make soup, so they would not be going to bed feeling sleepy from full bellies. The spanking was to keep them in their beds and to help them be able to sleep, as crying is quite draining they would cry themselves to sleep.

[@DoomedPaladin]

I had always heard that "living in the shoe" was slang for a hobo, and that all the references to her children was some kind of commentary on her promiscuity.

[@silviaconsonni586]

Could be a cautionary tale, because back in the day where contraception was rare and not fully understood, promiscuous mothers could well end up unhoused and with many kids... And being forced to give them a miserable life.

[@Hinatachan360]

The version I and my brothers grew up with said " she whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed." My mother had 7 of us and was a strict disciplinarian. She quoted this nursery rhyme to us a lot. 😅

[@kristineeuribe4357]

Yes this was how I remember it

[@suzannepottsshorts]

My son and I spent some time making up new verses for this rhyme. Our favorite: There was an old woman that lived in a yurt, She had so many children she gave them dessert.

[@pamelamays4186]

In the version I first heard, the Little Old Woman gave her children some broth without any bread, then whipped them all soundly and put them to bed.

[@DoubleDealingDisarray]

I've always been confused by this one. 🤔 Thank you for clearing some of it up. 😁 Keep up the great work!

[@Kahtisemo]

I've heard several versions of the rhyme, but you reminded me of the funniest thing. When i was super little we had one of those toys where you pulled a handle and it would spin an arrow on a wheel full of pictures then tell you part of the nursery rhyme it landed on. The one for the Old Woman was something like "There was an old woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children, she didn't know what to do. Oh my!" And tgat was it 🤣

[@TitularHeroine]

See n' Say, that was the toy, right? And there was the animals version that sounded like, "The cow says, MRAAUUUUGH" or something😂

[@Kahtisemo]

@@TitularHeroine Oh gosh yes! Thank you.

[@mayganphynix8267]

​@@TitularHeroineomg I remember this 😆

[@wren_bean]

I learned the version that 'she gave them all broth without any bread, whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed'

[@evilbarbie2160]

Little miss muffett... I just realized, you've missed Andrew Dice Clay's versions in your nursery rhyme series. Updates please!! Thanks for the laughs!!

[@itallia666]

In the British versions of the oldest of this rhyme At the end.. " She beat ( or whipped) them all soundly & put them to bed " There wasnt, Broth in name, in the early centuries so much as Gruel which was a thin mixture of bread with warmed milk over it Or a thin version of porridge. Pottage was a thick vegetable soup which was more common to mid to upper class food Many titles persons ate an evening meal of Pottage. It was a known fact that smacked or bottom hitting ensured children would cry from their pain & cry themselves to Sleep much earlier than hungry bellies would! Most of the nursery rhymes had cruel or sinister back stories! Thanks 🇬🇧👧

[@SaddleInTheRain]

Stumbled across this video and loved it, the delivery and the content. Subscribed!

[@youtubecommentergal4346]

As a child I was told the version of them being whipped to bed and I wondered what the word whip meant and why she did that. I think she gave me an answer like, “I don't know maybe they were being naughty.” I also used to wonder why she lived in a shoe and how big that shoe was to fit humans.😅

[@katchibediako7036]

Like Mike Shelley, I also remember the cars with the shoes and cans attached... and it remember the oldest version being told to me rather than any other version (which all sound weird to me), as they didn't pad and sugarcoat my generation. My mom and aunts used to say that rhyme when ever a bunch of us were getting on their nerves running all about as a way of saying that if we didn't settle down they were gonna settle us down and we would miss out on whatever we were all riled up about. Good times, good times...😅

[@slips2028]

I always thought the shoe reference was less about budget/wealth and more about size/social status. The old woman and the children were so small they lived in a shoe instead of a house. Broth without bread because she fretted too much to spend the time to make the bread (or money for the household). She whipped them before bed to make sure at least some of them were disciplined once a day (which at that time was - so I was told - part of a parent's expected duty).

[@megansimplystitch]

My childhood nursery rhymes book has the oldest rendition. That was back when Moms would hit you with a wooden spoon for any reason. Also my nuns, at my elementary school, would hit the back of student's hands for many different reasons. No paddling though.

[@justjess7563]

This is one of my favorites. This is how I remember it. There was an old woman That lived in a shoe She had so many chlidren She didn’t know what to do So she gave them all Butter Without any bread Whipped them all soundly A sent them to bed

[@bodyfarmbrat]

i always heard it as "whipped them all soundly" myself.

[@meimei8718]

A long time ago “coffin” was interchangeable with box or casket. The lady could have been picking up cigars in a coffin but equally possible is pie or pie crust (please see Tasting History with Max Miller). Thanks for the video.

[@bearnemati6359]

Thank you love ur Chanel, keep up the great work ❤

[@terrybradford3727]

Wasn't coffin another term for a baked pie? The old woman who lived in a sho was Mrs Lovitt's mom. ipso facto, this nursery rhyme was a prequel to Sweeney Todd, lol.

[@tearalewis7532]

Funny, I grew up knowing the original with the spanking. I have an old mother goose book given to me when I was a baby...in the 70s, and the spanking one is in that book. I did not even know there was a "good version".

[@redcurrantart]

Maybe it’s being born in the 70s but the misery rhyme I knew and was in my books growing up was: ‘there was an old woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she didn’t know what to do. She gave them some broth without any bread, spanked them all soundly, and sent them to bed.’ Which is far closer to the original.

[@sboinkthelegday3892]

Sending to bed is censorship, it refers to punishment but completely mixes it up with setting it at the evening. The rhyme is about the kids being unruly IN THE MORNING, so the mother doesn't bake them bread. She leaves them at their own devices when she goes to town, to trade as a basket lady, that's what coffin means. And whatever is the meaning of a-loffeing that's what you get when you raise them with a bonk to the head. Dutch loef (Middle Dutch lof) "the weather side of a ship". Aloof, "at a distance but within view" (1530s) and, figuratively, "apart, withdrawn, without community spirit". Origins of the name of Monkey D. LUFFy

[@sboinkthelegday3892]

Looked up some old meanings, "glove" is from the same source: the mother was dealt a shoe, but worked it up into a glove by being strict with her kids. A metaphor for moving up in life through diligence.

[@Blackcatsaregoodluck11]

This was exceptionally funny lol love your humor

[@Roni_makes]

This was one of my favorite nursey rhymes

[@ajanjie4301]

4:58 sounds like lamb to the slaughter 💀💀

[@azraelevangeline7277]

Was anyone else really confused until Jon read the oldest version? "The spanked them all soundly version was the only one I had ever heard.

[@kjmav10135]

I always heard the “beat them all soundly and sent them to bed” version. Always thought that was pretty harsh.

[@Haley_Halo]

Can't help but smile every time I hear "And remember...Jon shot first".😊

[@TNHawke]

Wow, the version I grew up with was "she gave them all broth with out any bread, beat them all soundly and sent them to bed."

[@cynthiabellack7994]

The shoes being thrown at couples would make sense since you can see old photos of cars carrying newlyweds driving away with shoes attached to the bumper.

[@lv4tmnt90]

My grandma said she would only give them broth with no bread. And wip them to bed.

[@darktenor4967]

Never heard "Broth with plenty of bread", or "kissed them all fondly." The version I heard back in the 80s, was "she gave them some broth, without any bread, and she whipped them all round, and sent them to bed!" There was even a display at a local kid's park called pet's corner in Derbyshire England, where you could go inside the shoe, and see the very unpleasant looking old woman, huge wooden spoon in hand, a spoon she apparently used both to cook her broth, and deliver whippings to her children :D.

[@viennasausages.]

Bro, I was born in 06 and I grew up with the original version of the rhyme lmao 😂 I never knew there was another version 😅

[@denisebacher5040]

I grew up with “she gave them all broth, without any bread, Then whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed. Is it any wonder I hated this nursery rhyme?

[@reggaespiritdance]

I totally remember the No bread and whipped version, glad they cleaned it up. I had a ton of anxiety in my younger years

[@debbralehrman5957]

LOL Great job. Thanks Jon 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@andrewbarten7347]

"Who throws a shoe? Honestly!": Austen Powers.

[@mistyarcher802]

The version I always heard growing up (for contacts, I am 35) was: There was an old woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she didn't know what to do! She gave them some broth without any bread and she whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed.

[@nickystripe3303]

I have never heard the modern version of the rhyme that you read. The one I knew from childhood was: there was an old woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children, she didn’t know what to do. She gave them some broth without any bread, then whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed.

[@sueparras6028]

People don't give kids enough credit when it comes to figuring out what is real and what isn't. Remember the Roadrunner cartoons? The violence was over the top but we all knew that it wasn't real. 😂😂😂

[@mecahhannah]

Awesome thanks as always

[@jeanettemarkley7299]

I heard the "spanked them all soundly and sent them to bed" (no mention of food) in the 60s-70. I never heard the tame one before. I found my version (close) A book called,The Real Mother Goose, This is from the 70s.

[@Eomma2023]

There was an old woman, who lived in a shoe. She had so many children, she didn't know what to do. She gave them some broth without any bread and whipped them all soundly and send them to bed. (That's the version I knew growing up)

[@maggpiprime954]

"There was an old woman who lived in a shoe She had so many children she didn't know what to do She fed them all broth without any bread Then beat them all soundly and sent them to bed" .. is the version I learned in a book I had as a child.

[@keiphhearbsabsoltruphlypim4932]

I didn’t know any of these rhymes you’re content is the first time I’m hearing a lot of these. Every day’s a school day

[@da-bor-ahfritz6708]

I lost it at the "besides a butthole" part 😂😂😂

[@chloedean521]

I think if you're looking for a royalty tie-in, Maria Carolina (Queen Consort of Naples and Sicily during the 1960s-1810s) fits better then George II. She turned Naples into a police state (after her sister Marie Antoinette was executed after the French revolution) and set up a secret police to spy on the public to make sure she didn't meet a similar fate. I think that could fit with "she gave them some broth. without any bread, she whipp'd all their bums, and sent them to bed." As she was running the country which would involve giving the public the necessities but not going out of her way to make them happy (she was counter-revolution, dismissive of The Enlightenment which was a major society shift happening at the time.) Then the whipping them and sending them to bed could be the secret police who was constantly on guard and patrolling whilst she would accuse people (a lot of them freemasons) or committing treason, she was so terrified of being overrun and killed like her sister it overtook her life and mental state. I also think this works with "She had so many children she didn't know what to do" so many subjects to supervise and make sure weren't plotting against her. She spent her time during this period of Naples being a police state moving between houses so no one would know where she is any given time and hiring food-testers to make sure she and her family weren't being poisoned. There's also the living in a shoe and Italy looks like a boot thing (though an argument could be made that living in a shoe could be a reference to how she was always packed and on the move, living in her shoes to leave at a moments notice.) It's also not impossible to believe that English people would make a rhyme about Maria Carolina. As during the French revolution and Napoleonic wars Naples was allied with Britain. Meaning the British public probably knew what was going on in Italy (Naples) as it was all relevant considering the were in a war (also wouldn't surprise me if the police state was used as an example and a threat, "don't start revolting lest you want this..." though that's purely speculative.) It would be a bit fast for a rhyme to be made and published about all this considering it hinges on what happened post Marie Antoinette's death (October 1793, the police state started in 1793 so I have to imagine it was immediately after.) But I don't think it would be impossible as it could have gotten popular very quickly and people wanted to document it as a way to document public reactions to their immediate history. And we have legends and myths that get created today that seemingly spring from nowhere and get documented almost immediately (i.e. internet Creepypastas and their Wiki's.) I think tying any historical figures to nursery rhymes and fables of the time is always going to be a bit of a stretch, folklore is just too weird and hard to take in metaphorically however you chose to interpret it. She's just personally my favourite candidate for royal inspiration. I hope this made sense it's hard to convey this over a KZbin comment😅 I also couldn't give as much detail about her as I'd like, but I'd recommend researching her it's really interesting. Also she was seen as the ruler because despite being Queen Consort her husband wasn't really bothered about ruling a kingdom so she took over his roles becoming essentially the sole ruler of Naples. This is one of the reasons why I prefer her as the source of inspiration than George allegedly having a nickname of "old lady".

[@kenrieke5675]

agreed. I like the fact that you acknowledge that rhymes were very often used to criticize royalty, generally hidden under innocent terms and almost never written down or recorded in any way at the time they were relevant because of serious repercussions to whoever did so. Jesters were known to take the piss out of royalty and rhyming was usually the vehicle. That you realize this and are obviously someone that respects history lends credence to the notion. Hard to pinpoint exactly who from this far removed, sure, but it was certainly a practice.

[@ScooBdont]

I’m always reminded of the Andrew Dice Clay version “There was an old women who lived in a shoe she had so many children…..her uterus fell out, Ohh!”

[@penismightier4303]

This is actually the only version of this rhyme I could ever remember properly.

[@rtist9281]

A coffin was the original name for a pie

[@TitularHeroine]

Jon -- well done. I never thought I'd be watching a video about a nursery rhyme that somehow led to King George being called a c**zehound. 😂😂😂 Damn. You truly never fail to astonish.

[@carolinecheney]

This is cool! Also you helped me realize in this vid that there was a queen with the same first name as me lol. It’s a small world after all!

[@aquarianage3953]

Good research,Jon.

[@PaulADAigle]

loaf verb gerund or present participle: loafing idle one's time away, typically by aimless wandering or loitering. "don't let him see you loafing around with your hands in your pockets"

[@SabalNabaya]

@Jon Solo my grandmother had 23 children and she wasn't crazy!

[@finmand1338]

Thank you for the awesome informative entertaining folk lore videos l!

[@ingridfong-daley5899]

Could aloffeing also be 'loafing about'? I can see it being 'laughing' too (kinda reminds me of Scots) and idk if laugh and loaf have similar roots but it seems feasible. (Loafing can just mean loitering/playing around/lingering about, etc--'goofing off' basically)

[@darkknight5541]

"Now would you believe me if I said there was an even darker version?" Well, I certainly don't think you're going to spend the next nine minutes of the video staring at me.

[@lizzalkula376]

I was born in 1985 and those first two weren't the versions I grew up with. that said I wanted to mention that one of the meanings of 'coffin'(though a box/basket [for valuables] is the main meaning) but around 1520s (according to etymology dictionary) it also meant "pie crust, a mold or casing of pastry for a pie"

[@caramelbrown2174]

LOW is hilarious. At my job we call them LOLs, little old ladies 😂

[@tracesprite6078]

Before the second World War, beating children was normal practice. The theories of Freud and other psychotherapists introduced the idea that what happens to us in childhood strongly influences our adult behaviour. However it wasn't until the 1950s that books about rearing kids in a caring way started to appear. People were so appalled by the cruelty and carnage of WWII, that everyone was searching for ways to raise less bloodthirsty people. The rhyme about the old woman is a useful reminder that poverty, crowded living conditions, lack of contraception and ignorance can result in horrible domestic violence. Looking after poor people is good policy.

[@joemcdonald4083]

"lived in a shoe" -- NOT a house, but a shoe -- meant she was homeless; her shoes were here home, she moved from place to place, and her children helped her beg. But they were not very good beggars, because the mother could not even afford bread. Sad story 😢

[@AUser7951]

The whooping them and sending them to bed version was what I remembered from childhood lol

[@coursefearwell4847]

I was always told a version of the third one, and I remember being confused as to why she beat her kids before putting them to bed, because they didn't do anything wrong and the poem didn't say they were being bad. When I got older I figured it was about a Very Poor old woman with a ton of naughty children, which made more sense. If you listen to old timers talk about their childhoods, they really got into trouble! There was one lady who had told me that before bed the kids would line up and get their spankings before bed that their mom had tallied up through the day. Mom couldn't spank hard enough, so Dad would do it before bed.

[@christianmarshal6117]

I’ve heard of people throwing shoes at other people before a coupe times but that’s never as a tradition following a wedding, every reference I found it in it’s been related to extreme anger and/or contempt!