The Messy Fight Over the SAT

[@jeremy____5747]

Here I'll save you all some time: Colleges dont want to use the SAT or ACT because that would make it really easy to determine if they are illegally carrying on with affirmative action.

[@Edo9River]

We have lived in Japan for 25 years. Now our oldest daughter and her family have decided to move to California for the sake of her 2 sons to experience American elementary school.How long they will stay in California depends on several factors. We are not upper middleclass, but we have certain levers to pull to give our kids/grandkids a chance, and to urge them to participate in climbing on the platform that advanced education will bring out their potential to serve their eventual communities.

[@maxineh.6763]

The episode was insightful look at the debate between standardized tests and diversity in college admissions. However, it lacked nuance on several levels. Before the pandemic, many elite colleges and universities were moving toward test-flexible options--which meant college admission officials were considering high school seniors who had taken standardized tests that included IB exams and AP exams. The college admissions process should include a plethora of college preparatory standardized exams and curriculum like IB, AP, and Honors classes that will allow high school students to demonstrate academic excellence and rigor to selective colleges and universities. Furthermore, there is a specific demographic of diversity applicants who have competitive standardized exams if you disaggregate the data. This demographic of competitive and diverse high school students with great standardized test scores often consist of high-achieving, low-income Black, Asian, and Latino immigrants who attend good charter schools or magnet schools. These diverse high school students are selected to attend Ivy League+ institutions. The demographic that most selective colleges and universities want on their campuses are inner-city, low-income Black American high school students who are perceived to benefit the most from college by achieving upward social mobility. However, there is often a tug of war between elite colleges and universities whether to replicate mass privilege to ensure the multimillion alumni endowments versus replicating mass upward social mobility for the common folk.

[@Sashas594]

Because of SAT optional colleges receive lots more applications. Meaning lots more money. Plus, they suddenly become more competitive due to the higher number of application process as they statistically accept lower percentage of applicants

[@elizabethwagner6516]

Science has absolutely showed us that when kids are learning for achievement purposes such as grades or test scores, it hurts their interest in learning, their ability to learn and long term retention of knowledge. Kids taught with grades and tests scores as incentives are less likely to be interested in learning for the sake of learning. This kind of education does not teach problem solving skills and critical thinking. We need to get away from this obsession with test scores and find other ways to test the efficacy of education.

[@elizabethwagner6516]

I will say that they are overall correct that the SAT is a good way of showing who does best in a system based on grades and test scores and who will continue to do best in that system. But if those same test scores are showing that the system is largely failing minorities and disadvantaged kids, we need to look very hard at the system we have in place. Studies have shown that the greatest predictor of how well kids will do in a grade based system is not their past test scores and grades, but their current motivation to do well in that system. Culturally, that has been fueled by how much families care how well their kids do in a grade and test based system. As parental involvement decreases, especially among disadvantaged families, we see the failure of that system. Our challenge is to create a system that helps kids to enjoy learning in spite of their disadvantages and lack of family support, and the research shows that grades and test scores are not the way to do this.

[@thomasdequincey5811]

OK. What has your comment got to do with the thesis of this podcast? Because: 1 - These aren't kids 2 - They clearly like learning because they want to go to College. 3 - When you say "science" what you actually mean is anecdotal evidence that you're interpreting in a specific, biased way. 4 - I'm guessing you're a Left-wing, "progressive" Kindergarten teacher. Edit: Number 4 is an observation or insult, however you like to take it.

[@Cosmo1093]

​@@elizabethwagner6516 It depends on the major -- standardized testing probably matters more for STEM majors. MIT tried to drop standardized tests, but figured out that the math portion of standardized tests were a key predictor of success at MIT. After all, you can't succeed in most of those majors without taking a bunch of math classes. Eliminating standardized testing because "disadvantaged kids don't have high grades and test scores" does nothing to help them keep up with a rigorous curriculum.

[@elizabethwagner6516]

@thomasdequincey5811 lol, Christian homeschooler here actually... but I have looked into a lot of the research that has been done on education and how kids actually learned because I found that my kids were not motivated by grades and tests and when we tried to do "school at home" that didn't work. So we ditched grades tests and textbooks, and they have done great, have 2 in college and one planning to go into the trades. But not everyone can homeschool and I want us to have a system that actually helps everyone. My point is that this article continues to ask the wrong questions as always. My ideas are based on actual scientific research not my own observations, although that is what led me there. An easy way to start looking at this is to read the work of Alfie Kohn who has written a lot on the effects of incentives and artificial consequences on education and parenting.

[@jhacksb1399]

I was a low “socio-economic” kid who grew up in a Southie Project. “Fortunately” though, I had “white privilege”! I graduated from Southie High School. To fulfill the dreams of my parents and siblings , I was encouraged to go to college. To achieve this “family dream”, I had to take the dreaded SAT’s. I did. I did well enough to be accepted into a four year college. I graduated while earning a BS in Math. I taught in Public Education for ten years. After earning a second degree in electrical engineering, I spent the next thirty years working in the Nuclear Power Plant construction and in electronics manufacturing. My parents and siblings encouraged me study with the intent to learn. Our family motto was, “Work hard to succeed”. It wasn’t easy, but it worked for me! “Just saying”!

[@rustyrebar123]

When student enrollment decreases, colleges resort to admitting applicants with lower qualifications to fill their enrolment targets. This situation is exacerbated by student loan providers (the government) who are required to lend to anyone, resulting in significant debts. This is especially problematic if students don't gain marketable skills. Importantly, these lower-qualified students are far more likely to drop out of college, leaving them burdened with debt that they struggle to repay, a situation that disproportionately affects disadvantaged individuals. While universities might not intentionally create this predicament, they should recognize it as a likely consequence of their admission practices. To enhance students' performance on standardized tests, the focus should be on improving education from kindergarten through 12th grade. This foundational education is vital for the nation's future, yet it often lacks the necessary attention and investment it critically needs.

[@mensrea1251]

All of the advanced and fast moving economies across Asia and the Indian subcontinent have relied primarily on standardized tests to identify the best and the brightest and radically increase social mobility for the urban and rural poor. Standardized tests are not perfect, but the evidence as far as end results for those societies are concerned is pretty definitive.

[@masonm600]

2 kinds of people hate the SAT: 1. Fools who don't realize they're replacing objective merit with favoritism 2. The meddling busybodies who want to play at social engineering

[@Amedee360]

The first question is who funded the study? My guess it is the huge private corporation that provides the SAT and ACT. Can you imagine how hard they are pushing to keep the SAT

[@bernardzsikla5640]

Standardized tests are designed to measure knowledge and intelligence and not the enemy of diversity. Standardized tests are the enemy of incompetence at a given task within a given time frame. Would you want your doctor to be competent or diverse as a priority? Those two attributes are not necessarily inclusive. Thank God for AI, because most of this nonsense will be put to bed in the next 20 years.

[@Edo9River]

The purpose of education is to develop person's potential in the course of preparing a person to serve the most diverse communities whereever they find them. The US has a higher responsibilty because of the history of receiving the best of the resources of the world's communities that ccould afford to participate in the programs the instutitions promoted as being in the best interests of mankind's ever advancing civilization. There is no one path there is no one voice there ias a democracy of voices in the universities to make their pitch on what is in the best interests of mankind in the future. I want to stress "mankind" and not a preference for a particular area, country or culture. Bring on the informed opinions and lets toegether try to decide the way forward as teachers, students, admin, and surrounding communities.

[@bernardzsikla5640]

Education main goal is to transfer knowledge and social skills to be productive members of society. Education and intelligence creates the hierarchy pyramid on what society values. What you stated is conjecture based on what you believe education needs to be in society.

[@jeremy____5747]

That sounds like silly bullshit

[@Edo9River]

@@bernardzsikla5640 is there a conflict?

[@Edo9River]

@@jeremy____5747 Yeah, 45 years ago I would have said the same thing. Just shows what grandkids will do to a person’s previous attitude lol

[@whatsdoin2392]

We are all equal but our brain and minds vary in extreme ways.