The Meta Level might not be 125 (Elden Ring has New Softcaps!)

My findings with how the stats and their softcaps operate in Elden Ring contrasted with older Souls games. 125 might now be low of a level for meta 1v1 dueling. This video is as non-spoiler as I could make it for testing!
Invaders, though, y'all can go to any level you want, just be mindful of your level, weapon upgrades, and these new softcaps. We need to follow up with the new matchmaking ranges in another video at a later date!
Submit your bug and balance reports to:
service-en.bandainamcoent.eu/... (Bandai Namco account required)
/ eldenring
/ fromsoftware_pr (best if you can speak Japanese)
Shoutouts to:
‪@AstrichthyesSouls‬
‪@ScottJund‬
‪@BathedinBrena‬
‪@barneezyJones‬
‪@Jeenine‬
‪@FightinCowboy‬
‪@gabri9886‬
#eldenring
--
Connect with me //
/ dangitjm
/ dangitjm

[@dangitjm]

About a week after these findings and some additional deliberation, I want to clarify where I stand on where the magical meta number ought to be: Between Levels 125 to 135 sounds about right to me. Just as I argued in the video, if we were to stick to the old meta tradition of having pure builds and hybrid builds have equal footing as well as unique identities, then we have to be at a complimentary range where this is possible. If we go too high (like 150 or above), we run the risk of builds becoming homogeneous, or they become too similar without any distinction or careful strategic thought. Likewise, if you go too low (below 100), you likely won't see more unorthodox or off-meta setups since there will be fewer stats in which to give them breathing room. We'll have to see how From Software patches and tweaks the many weapons, ashes of war, and damage breakpoints moving forward. We haven't even begun to consider things like "what if we allowed healing or one-time Physick use in a duel" or "which PvP hotspots would be the best for these meta 1v1s to take place?" Speaking of PvP arenas, I just made a video showing off some spots that look to be fair and fun to fight in for 1v1s. Thank you for watching and for keeping the discussion going! Video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m5jQmaV3bKyFbcU

[@CrustaceanJames1]

I have to disagree with the lvl cap for dueling being 125-135. The fear that builds become homogeneous is a legitimate concern and as a PVP fan I completely see the pros of having the meta lvl sit around 135, but I have a pure strength tank build that finished around 160, then I used 10 lvls so I can safely use all strength weapons I care for without any respec needed. I'm sitting at lvl 170 right now and I believe that is were most pure builds will and should stop at which gives people ample amounts of points to work with, but not too many to create a swiss army build that will dominate PVP as the soft caps have raised SIGNIFICANTLY. If a do it all build comes up against my strength build while we are both around lvl 170, I can still put up a fight even though I am a one trick ogre brain man with big stick. 165-170 seems like the right call

[@tomodaniel6471]

Mate I'm lvl 110 and I'm didn't even enter leyndell the main city.... I'm doing everything in the game. What should I do

[@jaysoniorg2950]

There are people over 200 who haven't even started NG+ yet. Not to mention the millions of players who have never played a Souls game before. There honestly won't be a meta level for a very long time, but there's no way it'll be as miserably low as 135 even when it happens. I'd be amazed if it's anywhere lower than 170.

[@randomguy9471]

@@jaysoniorg2950 135 is fine lol 170 is ridiculously high

[@randomguy9471]

@@CrustaceanJames1 170 that’s not even a build anymore, you literally have everything

[@bootstrap925]

i feel like the bigger softcaps are promoting players to explore and level up a lot. i beat the game at around sl100 and was still getting stomped by every boss, and with this info, i think i know why.

[@bootstrap925]

@Sigma Eastwood i pretty much speedran all the major bosses, so yea, youre right lol.

[@randomguy9471]

I beat the game at 150.

[@taculo3231]

i was staying at 120 on fear of missing out coop, looks like people are waaaay above that on the endgame lol, also grafted gs getting more damage on scaling than base is pretty funny, I'm interested in how the softcaps will shape the meta, though I'll probably invade lower (whatever this game's equivalent of 90s ends being).

[@RadishHead7]

It's all cause of that farming spot's fault. Miyazaki prob knew this and made all the bosses do mad damage.

[@eldenctlhulhu7278]

@@taculo3231 135 for me

[@FightinCowboy]

There is a community manager for bandai, I've been sending him glitches since pre-release to get things patched. Don't think he's as active on Twitter as Kimmundi was though

[@jarrarwinks8470]

What do you think about meta? Using mugen I found for soft caps with quality builds, you get 60 vg, 50 end, 50 str, 50 dex, you get rune level 166.

[@WithinandThroughout]

@AlpinDale i've sullied my eyes. First thing I saw was Erdtree Burn. RIP spoilers

[@alpindale]

@@WithinandThroughout the burning is a metaphor, it doesnt burn down it's just a figure of speech, dont worry about it

[@ahrfry]

@@WithinandThroughout The small unimportant Erdtree burns. Not the big one. Though, now you know about a smaller Erdtree you need to burn.

[@brad5204]

I think one of the biggest bugs that needs to be addressed is the invisible enemies. I don’t experience it personally, but my friend and many others online do, and it makes the game unplayable.

[@yannikwelsch2248]

Small PSA regarding INT and FTH scaling on weapons specifically: The soft caps for these are on 50, that's when you really start seeing diminishing returns on weapons. 80 is the second cap where you only see increases in 1 attack rating and only every other point of stat investment too. Tested with various infused weapons for both faith and intelligence, as well as the Inseperable Blade and Darkmoon Greatsword, which each primarily scale off of FTH and INT respectively.

[@3amhondacivic]

Thank you for your contribution, you're a legend

[@valkyrieregalia]

For faith/int scaling weapons, the main cut off is indeed 50, but spell damage scales to 80. There is technically still a cut off from 50~80 for int/faith weapon scaling, just the one at 50 seems a bit more severe than the counterparts of other stat paths. Maybe it's for balance purposes. So, if you are int/faith based, and utilize spells, you want to goto 80 for the spells, and you still get at least something for weapons. STR/DEX is 80 all the way for what you want for weapon scaling. You get solid gains, especially w/ a high scaling weapon, all the way upto 80. For STR, you do get 50% more when two handing of course, so you could stop at 53~54, if you want to two hand. Just know, you'll lose a massive amount of attack for one handing. Arcane is also 80 for weapon scaling, although, arcane spells hit a steep wall at 45 arcane actually. So, stopping at the first arcane weapon scaling soft cap of 50 seems like a solid stopping point if you are mainly interested in Arcane spells, where 80 gives you the most weapon damage, and just a little bit of extra spell damage. To be fair, even with poor scaling, 35 extra stats is still going to add a bit to your arcane spell damage, but it would mainly be for your weapon scaling. Essentially though, the extra soft caps are so you have the same amount of build variety at higher levels, like 150~200, for those who keep leveling for PvE. Considering how far weapons scale, 150~200 PvP may be a bit more balanced, since you may struggle to get both your offensive and defensive stats to survive +25 weapons w/ good arts/spells at level 100~125. Playing a mage in particular will be a lot more forgiving in the higher soft cap range, since they have a lot of Quality of Life stats to level as well. Just a rule of thumb though, if you are going to 150~200, you may want to drop the +5 to four stat rings, as it will cause you to die a hit sooner in high level PvE/PvP since base damage is higher, Vigor gains are lower, and flat reduction is less impactful. Being able to live an extra hit makes a huge difference at that level range.

[@zedzilla]

@@valkyrieregalia doesn't seem like anybody realizes this, but the 2-hand bonus goes beyond 99 effective STR in this game

[@carlsaxon3385]

I’m too stupid to follow any of this

[@natethewerewolf]

This information hardly matters for spell buffing. Spell buff keeps going up and up and up.

[@2ny424]

I stopped leveling at 150 in pve because that's where I felt satisfied with my build I felt very starved for stats at 125 in a certain area. If you clear all the big bosses 150 is about where you will end up I think. One of the bosses literally gives 650k runes if you pop a gold foot.

[@michamierzejewski1275]

With golden scarab and foot 780k

[@Tsukinotaku]

I'm around 155 perso, i can pretty much handle every boss with a few tries, some in one go, I do want to reach level 200 just for the meme tho, and maybe to get a true quality build able to use every single weapons possible

[@notan3144]

@@Tsukinotaku Level as much as you want, just know you might be outleveling most of the playerbase and you'll be starved of online matchmaking on that character.

[@eyesontheinsides]

@@notan3144 this is launch. There will be activity everywhere for a few years for sure

[@achmadtitofauzan3809]

Try cheesing Mohg using golden foot and scarab

[@nekotyrant1629]

Leveling has been interesting. Before a stat hits 20/30, gains feel a bit weak, but after... man, stats seem to suddenly bulk up afterwards.

[@jaws2210]

My highest stat is FAI at 30 rn, ready to see just how much of a difference this is

[@alexepic3255]

I know right?! Always, first thing I level up is HP to around 27, however, in elden ring I received like 20 or so. I ended up with 40 HP, because it now gives me 50 per level! It's so weird lmao.

[@davidf3974]

The game encourages leveling through stat softcaps to avoid twinking I think

[@cheese5081]

I noticed this when I started to finally put points into mind for my faith/strength build, don't remember exactly how much mind it was but eventually once you break a certain amount you mind goes from giving you like 2fp per level to 6fp per level

[@Someguywithalotoftism]

Dude having a spread out build does not help I stg. Like I'm trying to do a paladin, so I gotta do a tiny bit of mind, a bunch of health, strength, endurance, and faith lol. It's gotten really hard to get far in it

[@CustardCream515]

I'm 44 hours in, took a week off work to play. Level 96 (40 vit, dex and strength, 15 faith and end) and some bosses are still killing me in two hits. Very excited to see how far the rabbit hole goes

[@csquared4538]

Those are some rookie numbers! Only playing it like it's a full time job? Psh. I have 140 hours in the like 9 days it's been out 😂 I'm unemployed and sort of in quarantine, so I've been going full mental illness with it.

[@RandomPerson28337]

I admire the dedication

[@FoulUnderworldCreature]

Both of you are absolute chads.

[@Tantium]

@@csquared4538 i bet ur dreams are messed up

[@DrunkGnu]

@@csquared4538 oh how I yearn to sink hours upon hours into beloved games like I used to. I’ve literally only got 35hrs and I started playing the day it came out, work is killing me.

[@baejus]

I am around 140 I think, and finally feel like I have an established character rather than one that is just looking for minimums to be able to use the spells and equipment I want to use. The damage in this game is insane with some of the weapons though, I feel like huge health pools will be a necessity for 90% of us. Hopefully some of the less utilized weapons will see scaling improve when stats settle in, and it's not just all Moonveils and Swords of Night and Flame

[@Nateson]

Thank you for making this!!

[@ravenpines]

Ayo, my favorite OW KZbinr is also a FromSoft enjoyer? Nice.

[@Alexandroid_]

Gamer spotted in the wild

[@Kizzaar]

I settled on 150, even just going through the game and completing all of the important optional bosses I was easily hitting 150. I felt like it was pretty reasonable considering the increased weapon and spell requirements compared to ds3 at least.

[@djrocuall]

I was gonna say the same thing I’m 150 have hella vigor mind and faith. Ashes of war make everything viable

[@boof994]

How is finding players at that lvl?

[@Kizzaar]

@@boof994 It's not super popular for the time being (but I have mainly been doing pve stuff so could be more than I know) but I think that many people just haven't put in the time to hit said level yet.

[@djrocuall]

@@boof994 yea I honestly have no problem finding matches especially if I’m just using the taunter’s tongue to get invaded. I find matches back to back with hardly any downtime.

[@christopherealy8025]

Yeah, 150 feels pretty good right now. It feels like a lot of builds are landing on 140 to 150, so I could see 150 being the new meta level.

[@SynderFGC]

As someone who has gouged Vigor and Endurance heavily in prior Souls games to make my crazy hybrid caster builds playable, I have been saying since it was first mentioned. 125 is not going to work for this game. I have seen PvEers reach 140 in this game. I feel like DS2's 150 is a good starting point for discussion, but not 125.

[@tonk8628]

yeah after I beat the game for the first time I finished at around 140 so it would make sense to level up a bit more in NG+ and pvp

[@ShadowProject01]

Same I was tossing around lv150 in my noggin as well

[@saintgamer6973]

I agree. Somewhere around 150

[@l-shadow1775]

150 or 200 maybe

[@Dan-vv5kl]

@@l-shadow1775 150 preferably, 200 is a bit much, everyone is gonna be a hybrid mele-casting tank

[@Lady_Vengeance]

I wonder what endgame level for PVE is meant to be, in From’s estimation. With softcaps being raised so high I wonder if they expect players to level up to 175 or 200 in a normal playthrough. The PVE meta might affect the PVP meta.

[@_Animikii_]

Have you been to the haligtree yet? If not than let me tell you that as a currently sl125 that 30 vigor and the erdtrees favor +2 and crimson amber medallion +2 and 40 int 30 fth using death magic that each enemy there is damn near unkillable for me and they ALL one shot me so yea im certain 140 to 150 is a bare minimum level to get to and more likely 160 to maybe all the way up to 180 is the better choice to hit all the softcaps for your specific build since it seems almkst any build will have 2 damage stats to level invluding many caster builds with than for caster buils they newdnto level mind as a dump stat not really needing end and melee builds need to make end their dump stat with the talismans lowering skill cost enough that they really don't need much mind.

[@fighterfas]

@@_Animikii_ really? I am 118 and i beat the entire area, upgrade your weapon maybe? I have a faith and int build centred around the broken (not sorry) Sword of Night and Flame. I mean the final boss slaughtered me so i left. I did manage to finish the quest line with that one NPC (no spoiler) invasion/cooperation. So.... Yeah i mean my vigour is like 24?

[@lonodel]

​@@fighterfas I mean, you are using SNF, being a glass cannon hardly matters when you are using such a ridiculous weapon. Haligtree is where I got to when I decided that clinging to 120 was not realistic. Str/Fth build, I was able to kill lesser enemies in a few hits and combo the bigger knights, but at 30 vig + soreseal levels I don't think there were any enemies that weren't hitting for around 70% HP while dancing around 20% phys reductions. After about 15 levels and some good rng, I was able to comfortably take the boss there out. 135 felt a LOT more comfortable through the rest of the game.

[@_Animikii_]

@@fighterfas stuff that you kind of can't really talk on your using a sword that is basically known to be the second if not most strongest sword in the game especially because of a fucking soul stream being buff so massively and being something you can cast with that sword

[@stephengrant4841]

Leveling in this game feels much much easier than in any of the other games bar exploits, so I think the intended endgame PVE level is super high, upper 100's. I'm at the volcano and level 103 and feel like I should level a bit more for some of the bosses here lol, I imagine that feeling will be stronger with some of the later bosses

[@naummw6328]

Great video what a rundown I rewritten everything just so I have your findings on in document to revisit. Cheers

[@cowsticker9618]

I just want to make it known that weapons like Rivers of Blood and Marais Executioner's sword do NOT scale properly, and have no benefits from stats at all, despite having scaling letter grades. PLEASE make this more known in the community, it ruins fun weapons like these for everyone!

[@HellGatyr]

Im fine with rivers blood, using it to invade sweap all the gankers I don't want other people knew how to abuse the broken scaling, but under level with rivers sword literally anime protagonists

[@uyagg9079]

@@HellGatyr its deadly i use it a lot for pvp but its normal attacks are pretty much useless sadly. but i still use it love its playstyle

[@erniegang8127]

I think rivers of blood might have been on purpose since it applies bleed so easily, but the other weapons were dragged with it somehow

[@uyagg9079]

@@erniegang8127 then there would be no point in having the scaling showing.

[@erniegang8127]

@@uyagg9079 true, but it’s just speculation from me since if river of blood did normal damage it would easily one shot combo most people

[@jojothehamster]

I kinda had a feeling, once I hit 120 and was doing some end game content I still felt weak. This proves my suspicions right.

[@mayhem6933]

Agree... 120 is so low level in elden ring

[@unixtreme]

Same here, I was getting rekt at the endgame, 140 felt right, maybe 150 like others are saying.

[@jojothehamster]

@@unixtreme Im currently heading to 150. Playing as a mage you really need those stats.

[@Fucev]

@@jojothehamster you’re already on easy mode

[@jojothehamster]

@@Fucev Yes, with a mimic ash summon. I play these games for fun, not to torture myself thank you very much.

[@WolfHreda]

This definitely answers some of my questions. thankyoujm Now, we need to figure out the matchmaking.

[@nickavery8725]

dang although the uploads are infrequent i always get so hyped when i see a new vid, keep up the great content

[@katimations123]

In other fromsoft games I've typically kept my vigor at around 30, Elden Ring is the first one where I have felt the need to bring it higher because at 30 vigor a lot of bosses one/two shot you.

[@forminlo]

Yeah, by the time I had killed all of the bosses that drop Great Runes and then the final boss, I was sitting around level 150 with 50 levels into vigor.

[@User-rv3oc]

Was thinking the same thing. 30 doesn’t feel sufficient at all late game.

[@Bob-in7zm]

From what I know, softcap is at 40, and hardcap is at 50. They give you almost 50 health per point from 30-40, so you at least want to have 40 vigor

[@Kumire_921]

I never touched my vigor stat and i am now doing the 4th elden lord, let's say i've gotten used at getting one shotted by everything lol..

[@FakeHeroFang]

I was gonna stop at 20 as a caster, but even with talismans boosting my hp that feels like ass. Mobs are 2-3 shotting me, and I know there are bosses who will have no trouble oneshotting. Getting a tolerable amount of int+fp early so you can push through with the shitty spells is a real pain in the cock when even mobs can spank you if you don't play conservatively

[@zackbryans4982]

Big stronk faith build with the clawmark seal makes for a really fun build so far.

[@borntopwnyou]

Seriously, a seal that scales with strength. It's like it was made for me.

[@zackbryans4982]

@OneFortyFour I play with mostly utility incantations. So I use order's blade on weapons I can buff (or skip it if I'm using a faith weapon that can't be buffed. A lot of enemies are weak to holy but Lightning Armament is a good swap if they are resistant to holy. For attacking spells I like cheap fast ones so lightning spear and fire sling are really good. O flame grant me strength gives a nice phys damage boost if you aren't using exalted flesh. Wrath of gods is just as amazing as it was in previous games too.

[@zackbryans4982]

@OneFortyFour and if you didn't know, the clawmark seal makes your incantations scale with strength.

[@xasadore]

Really informative and great video, especially the comparison to DS3. Thank you very much for doing this!

[@mooseroom]

i love this style of video where you just sat and talked. felt really nice to listen to

[@helnkellrfresh2deaf]

another great analysis. I saw Fextralife say similar things about Vit. When i hit 40 INT I thought I was close to the end - then I saw a certain scepter with min 60 INT to weild

[@jonaswest6993]

Yeah seriously seeing my stats still go up past 40 was kinda crazy

[@duboi-]

Thank you for the awesome video! Subscribed! Looking forward to more of your content.

[@skeleton8559]

Definitely felt sluggish at the start of the game, since I started confessor. After a while and switching to pure strength, I got to around 110 near the last few areas. I had to switch up again to strength/int because I had some badass weapons I wanted to, and now do, use. Got to 140 by the end of my first playthrough. Interesting to see how pvp and invading in general will turn out in the future

[@nebulous9280]

Currently hitting like a wet noodle at 80 with only around 30 in my damage stats. Hearing that the Softcap is 80 is astonishing, to say the least.

[@eldenctlhulhu7278]

Probably need a stronger weapon. Boss weapons hit for thousands of damage sometimes

[@IRedpunk]

It’s not for every stat, some soft cap at 60, other 70, it’s not the same for all of them

[@TheBlackWaltz]

I have 30 strength and 30 faith, I'm using the golden halberd. I hit really hard. It's not a problem doing damage. The real issue is surviving attacks.

[@agentace1476]

Upgrade your weapon

[@IRedpunk]

@@TheBlackWaltz some weapons do more damage than others, so they can carry your dps output even if you have not so good stats. But yea at the end of the day it’s knowing the “dance” and not getting ass slapped

[@AstrichthyesSouls]

Based on what I've seen and everything I've heard about, here or otherwise, 60vig will be mandatory. There's a lot to consider here though. If we all go 80 in a single damage stat, or 50/50 dual stats, we're going to be hitting each other for a ton of damage that will likely negate the benefits of high vigor. This game seems horrendously balanced with regard to damage. I've seen and heard of plenty of instances where no matter what your vigor, certain things can still one or two shot in PvP. Moonveil. Sword of Night and Flame. I haven't even seen everything yet and I know that no matter what we do, it's going to be a circus sideshow. I fear we haven't seen anything yet though. In a month or so, we're going to see the real imbalances come out of the woodwork. I think we need create a test group to look at the damage potential of fully optimized builds and weapons in order to get some reference points that actually tell us what will happen with the game. +25 upgrade levels is a serious concern for me personally because it doesn't seem like they have reduced the potency of upgrades relative to the other souls games.

[@pentagram4745]

I actually like it because of diversity. Some blights might need number tweaking especially the ice one. Too strong for a blight that has crowd control and easy to apply.

[@calvinbarboza]

Moonveil and Sword of Night and Flane aren’t an issue with damage so much as armor. Mixed weapons used to be cheeks so it never mattered but now that they are actually good, heavy armor does nothing to defend against the magic damage.

[@KGAnims]

I get 640 pure physical damage on a +25 halberd at 40 Str, heavy infused... In Dark Souls 3 i could reach 627 with Curved Greatsword with 66 Str, and that says something about weapon damage in both of these games.

[@lukefisher8417]

Agreed. Hopefully there will be corrections in the future. I am new to souls PVP so I’m not sure how Away from soft is about these types of things

[@joshjonson2368]

I kinda wish vitality was still a thing so tank builds would be more viable

[@sonvolt5150]

Great stuff as always Thanks Jim!

[@Summon_Aery]

As always thank you and everyone you spoke to. I think this question has been on a lot of people's mind, will be interesting to see where the dust settles.

[@draxxilion5957]

By the time I had reached level 125 I was maybe close to 2/3rds through the game, I still had so much more to do and even some areas to go back to. By the time I fully finished my first character I was around level 160, the meta will definitely need a change. I've always seen the meta level as being somewhere that players would reach through playing organically after one full playthrough. Some muleing may have been required but I never needed it. With the new and very easily accessible respecs, people will be able to make upwards of 20 different builds for every level range. With save file shenanigans it'll be easily possible for an effective 80+ character slots most across various level and weapon upgrade ranges.

[@jesuriah]

At 160 you don't have a build, you have a toon that can do anything. You can wear the heaviest armor, cast the most damaging spells aside from that moon spell, and wield every single weapon.

[@draxxilion5957]

@@jesuriah well spoken for someone that doesn’t understand what they’re saying. Softcap for vigor is 60, for strength, dex, faith, and intelligence it’s 80, endurance idk but I keep it at 40. I have a build with 60 vigor, 40 endurance, 20 strength, and 80 dex, with the leftovers dumped into mind. All from samurai starting class.

[@valkerionrides9879]

@@jesuriah If we were talking about DS3 you'd be right but this is Elden ring and you are absolutely wrong. You think you're gonna have a build that does everything when you need 70 int to use the moon spell you're talking about? assuming you start wretch you're at level 61 to use 1 spell add the mandatory vigor of at LEAST 40 (probably still get 1 shotted at this level) and you're over level 100 already with zero investment into str/dex so you can barely use any weapons at all and no focus/endurance and you think you can sit at 120 and be fine? Even as a pure caster build this wouldn't work as a good amount of them need levels in arcane/faith too in elden ring only pure str or dex builds work at 120 and of course the broken cheese builds everyone loves at the moment.

[@erroneouse1929]

@@draxxilion5957 no sir you don’t understand what he’s saying…

[@egoalter1276]

And yet, its the organic endgame level, so it is where endgame pvp will be at. Trust me, wlden ring is a much bigger game than the old souls pvp community, its new ppaysrbase will define its own meta, and that will emerge organically from pve.

[@KlangfarbenmelodieEnjoyer]

Given how much stuff there is to use in this game i really hope that meta level goes higher than 125

[@Jo_Rogan]

and spells that need level 60 or 70 req

[@xthor86]

@@Jo_Rogan and even weapons (like best staff is 60 int minimum i think it was).

[@Egozit_]

I am just starting to explore the snowy area, been exploring pretty thoroughly up untill this point (no farming, also haven't poped rememberances and hard souls) and I ended up with rl 123. So it's definately possible to go beyond 125 in one playthrough, I was worried that I'd need to restrain myself from leveling up

[@shadowraven137]

Something that I think you forgot to mention (or maybe I missed it), is that even non-casters also need to invest in mind for the ashes FP to use them in a proper duel. I wouldn't be surprised if the new builds were another 20+ levels higher before we take the softcaps into account

[@thermalshoes]

I definitely have been thinking a lot of this as I’ve been playing and even before the game released before realizing how massive this game is. The natural progression of the game I think will require that a ‘finished build’ be higher level than in previous games.

[@Pine2142]

Incredibly interesting and I can't wait till we can settle on meta level and find a spot as awesome as the pontiff balcony

[@Kezzic]

siofra aqueducts!!

[@flannelbeard4621]

I was JUST searching for this - nice!

[@chastermief839]

thank you for avoiding spoilers as much as possible in this video, very helpful

[@FoalanAzrael]

This was so great! I was literally worried about my levels and this was exactly what I wanted to know! I’d also like to say, another good video you may be interested in doing would be area-monster levels. I haven’t had any luck finding any video that says where to go at certain levels and what to avoid. It’s just been a lot of guerrilla tactics and more than a few lost soul stacks.

[@_toph]

You forgot to mention talismans which will probably be crucial to every single meta build that exists just like how rings were for DS3

[@jimtsap04]

The soreseals in particular will be practically mandatory, 20 free levels for a miniscule amount of extra damage.

[@WhoPutsThisStuffHere]

Then you got helmets that can affect states too adding more free points for a few making small sacrifices to gain what's a pretty good pool of extra statpoints..

[@RexDeorumYT]

@@jimtsap04 It's not miniscule late game, if I use it on my current build I drop from 34-40% resist to 18%. That's a 30+% increase in the damage you would take. It's similar to Prisoner's chain, 15 free levels is busted early, but at a certain point the added value you get from those levels really isn't worth the slot.

[@kylep8183]

@@RexDeorumYT ya they’ve been carrying me so far, but once I break 100ish I’m gonna swap if for either an int ring or something like that most likely for my spellblade.

[@Brokentwobutton]

@@RexDeorumYT its worth it because of a couple reasons, as long as you're not at desired soft caps; which means that hybrid builds or builds developing a side stat for requirements will completely benefit. The other and maybe most important aspect for invaders is increased RES from the added levels, especially from stats that govern RES types like STR and INT. Assuming damage works the same as in BB and DS3, end game damage values are like boss hits. If your resist is 180 and the attack value is over 640-670ish, then your absorption is reduced by 75%. That's also why you take less damage from split weapons or enemies far below your level. Your absorption can actually be increased, like when an enemy has excess physical damage RES and your hits do 10% damage, but fire or magic doesn't face the same ratio of AR v RES so they take 90% of AR.

[@ghostframe8321]

A very informative and thought provoking vid, subbed

[@MisterPudd]

I think its also important to note that the reason alot of weapons, ashes and spells do high dmg in the first place is because the pve part of the game encourages you to do so. Meaning the game is balanced around being able to fight pve reasonably as well as pvp. And unlike bb for example, there is no way to bump up your dmg by just augmenting your weapon. Honestly im fine with it if the meta lvl is higher than 120. It encourages ppl to try all sorts of stuff without having to dedicate themselves solely to pvp or pve like in 3 with the upgrade system locking you out of co op at certain breakpoints.

[@unifyedunicorn8876]

Yeah I'm really not sure that they should make drastic balance changes for the PvP content. It's really more of a bonus in the first place, some weapons and builds should feel OP in PvE because that's what the 95% of the game is. That being said some weapons are really problematic in PvP alone (Moonveil), changes to those is fine.

[@MisterPudd]

@@unifyedunicorn8876 but then they gave clear ways to counter stuff like moonveil. Apparently magic parry works on it as well as it being subject to the same hitbox logic as other weapons.

[@masterhand20]

@@unifyedunicorn8876PVP isn’t only 5% of the game. You are saying that as a “PVE main” if you will, and that’s perfectly okay (everyone gets to enjoy the game the way they want), but it is vital that you understand that PVP is an absolute massive part of the game’s lifespan. After everyone has already played through the game a time or two, the majority of the people who are still playing will be those invading and fighting one another while grinding for rare items and creating interesting builds.

[@FarhanNetizen_62]

Limiting your self at meta lvl isnt about pvp but rather having a proper build i mean look out there there are no dr.strange with big muscle as hulk or hulk that can do magic, guess why? Something need to be unique so its special.

[@demacry]

Finally someone talking about this. Been waiting for it to figure itself out

[@xenosayain1506]

Same. Stopped my wizard at 125 in case I bypassed the meta till it got figured out. Want my first character with tthe most exploration to be my main duelist.

[@Superfedericosi02]

7:15 This timing is beautiful

[@xyl_Miasma]

You are my hero, Dang. Please, keep creating videos like this to teach and inspire people about such basics as a proper build making and so on. 140/150 seems promising as it allows to max vigor and one potential dmg stat and then spend some more to adjust other things like a bit of stamina or hybrid stats to use personally preferred additives. ~Duelist

[@athurstyman2139]

Another banger video, JM. Just from my own experience, I’m not even in the final areas of the game and rune level 110 and can confirm there’s a breakpoint where runes just get dumped on you in droves. High level invasions will likely be beyond 125 as well. Excited to play a part in where this situation goes.

[@Chyguy]

I guess its possible From wanted us to actually go into the higher levels this time around, by making the damage types scale optimally all the way up to 60's, 70's and 80's. I 100% believe they want us to level up way more than before, or else reaching 125 wouldn't be so easy if you explored everything. Endgame bosses are literally scaled to be hard at that level.

[@epicface239]

As an invader I've always preferred invading at around level 60 but in this game I might have to pump it up to 80

[@dangitjm]

60 is a common spot that I keep hearing about! But now the key is... which weapon upgrade will do the most justice at that level? Further testing in the future!

[@Lisan-Al-bean]

@@dangitjm I was testing this. +5/+6 for Somber titanite and i think +13/+16 por normal titanite about lvl 60-80 im testing this at lvl 70

[@thermalshoes]

I’m also around 60 with a +14 weapon and find constant activity when I go for a few invasions.

[@gachi2059]

@@thermalshoes are the weapon upgrade level caps even in Elden ring for invasions?

[@Dan-vv5kl]

@@dangitjm +8 since most people will have that free +8 rapier from the NPC

[@JoyTuub]

I'm excited for the higher softcaps! It will reward/insentivise players more for exploring new game plus+

[@posseslayer280]

Thank you for taking the time to do this! Let's hope that something that will satisfy everyone will be voted!

[@abyssalforge]

Once I finally finish the game, I'm gonna try 150 - 200 for duels. Hope we find the sweet spot soon!

[@struggl3bus984]

One thought this does prompt is that I hope that, if it's possible, Fromsoft changes their patch style. If memory serves, Dark Souls 3 got a handful of largeish patches that were strewn out over sort of long periods of time with smaller ones here and there. I hope that they are able to run tweaks and bug fixes at a faster pace. But there of course is probably logistical issues that prevent this lol. Also as an aside, the mention of caster hybrid build made me realize that I kind of miss those hybrid infusions from Ds3. I surprised that Fromsoft decided to step back from those. The ones I'm talking about being chaos and dark. As far as I could find there are only special weapons that have hybrid caster stat scaling. No ash of wars that I've found have had FTH/ARC, INT/ARC, or FTH/INT. Kinda bummed about those niche hybrid builds but I guess thems the breaks on a game this large. Stuff like that is probably tough to fit in the picture lol.

[@JaydonVRC]

Lovely video!

[@Alexandroid_]

Great video!

[@Tehn00bA]

Guess the "New Meta" would be around 150-200 SL.

[@mayhem6933]

200 is normal i guess

[@dylanmaloy4332]

It's not going to be 200 where did you learn your math???!!!

[@max_schxx]

@@dylanmaloy4332 im at 220 and not even started my Ng+ 💀

[@hamszynka]

I got to level 120 somewhere around reaching the undergrounds of leyndell. After that i kept constantly going back to the hold banking the runes in upgrade materials. I did that a lot, and im confidend my end game level would be around 150-170

[@veerkillerx]

Really helpful video. I had assumed (in my venerable age) that the soft caps for magic were still at 60 int/fth like DS3.

[@catfishon2143]

You outro made me subscribe to you in a heartbeat.

[@ghost_font4087]

Even in pve 40 vigor is not enough. Vs the black rite bird, i get one shot by his beak attack. Had low armor too, but still. 50 to 60 is a must on this game

[@franciscofaria1778]

I got 25 Vit and almost finishing the game with a full Int build, but man i got one shotted even from mobs

[@Cronicrisis]

In full heavy damage negation stuff i needed 50 VIG by the end.

[@Goob4351]

Sorcery and faith is gonna go hard in pvp and I'm all for it

[@lukefisher8417]

Watch out they can now gank you from 100ft away with these spells.

[@knavenformed9436]

Seeing how great some of the big spells in the game are I would've liked to see the pebble and dart spells be removed. It hurts invading a high level Sorc that pebble spams like no tomorrow.

[@stupidanon5941]

@@knavenformed9436 Hey you keep your mitts off of those; we need those spells to be able to punish aggression. Without night shard, pure sorcery literally has no non-melee counter-pressure.

[@mynamejef7963]

@@stupidanon5941 it’s called a sword when someone gets close to you but we know you’re not very good with those

[@knavenformed9436]

@@stupidanon5941 Yeah exactly you would have no non-melee pressure. Would be great if spells needed INT outside of game stats. Instead even two sorcerers make the game into a bullet hell dance simulator.

[@jayfila]

great vid my guy 🤝

[@bimbocindy]

Thank you so much for this, I was wondering why my build had suddenly dropped off and now I know why!

[@daikilvirtav8469]

Amazing video, I was surprised at the returns after 50 str/dex. Will take that into consideration when making future builds. 150 meta seems like the general idea people have right now and I guess I'm okay with that. Some spells are really annoying and melee builds feel kinda bad without op ashes or status effects in pvp but other than that the game is great.

[@hobosorcerer]

This gives me high hopes for running a mixed int/faith caster, and I think it'll open up a lot more build variety in general.

[@kylep8183]

I’ve keep finding super dope sorceries and incantations, and it’s making me want to run split once I get closer to 150. Currently going heavy on the int with Dark moon right now though.

[@audioCC]

Appreciate the time put in for this video, best I've seen on the subject. With the softcaps being basically doubled there is no way 125 is going to remain the pvp meta.

[@kingjones20]

Thank you bro. I think you're going to see a lot of tubers talking about this in the next few days.

[@Serparus]

I'm aiming that 150 will be the meta level me thinks. A suitable number, extra, generous stats compared to 120-125's DS3's meta level, and giving WAY more viability for the tool's that Elden Ring is given. (Which, by the way, ER seems to have given MAJORITY of tools and armaments to being super viable as long as you have the stats for them, which is amazing and gives so much potential, hence why 150 me thinks is a good idea to settle on to where its not too huge in a boost, but it gives people a proper build while maintaining some vitality in what they want to use.

[@inthebeginning4751]

Also to mention godricks rune boost with both sore seals means +10 to all stats...80 levels worth of stats from a great rune and 2 talismans 😬

[@Serparus]

@@inthebeginning4751 Eh, Rune's primarily focused towards the host there, and it'll be iffy to say when and what is fair in terms of someone using a ruin during competitive dueling etc.

[@inthebeginning4751]

@@Serparus I'm just saying that's an insane amount of value for just 2 talismans and a great rune

[@sleeplessguardian]

i am at 150 aswelll now and planned to stop there, i just beat margott and my build feels pretty good at this stage. so yeah i think 150 pretty nice.

[@Serparus]

@@sleeplessguardian Gonna be real with you, I don't think 150 should be the meta anymore seeing the amount of spam and exploits being done lmao-

[@cookiesmcsalsa1281]

I’m thinking the stat lines are gonna be like this: 60 Vig, 80 Damage Stat(+Prerequisites for the weapon you’re using), leftovers into Mind 70%, End 30%,(switching to 90/10 for Major Magic Users) up to the community decided meta level, whatever it is.

[@TwizslurD]

I've been waiting for a video like this after seeing some of the requirements for spells and weapons. I'm still only lvl 90ish on my first playthrough so I haven't tested much myself, but I was _really_ hoping this would be the case and the caps would be higher. This adds much more variety when it comes to making different and more diverse builds. But (hopefully) even better, this has the potential to add ALOT of longevity to the PvP scene. Higher caps means higher level, which means a higher "meta", higher level ranges in between, and even higher level ranges to avoid the meta. Even if it's just the community that has built up over the years, there's enough here for us to still be experimenting 5+ years from now. And that's if we don't get DLC(s) at some point. EDIT: ok.. I wasn't expecting 80! But I'm fine with it. For the first time, they have added "viability" to the ENTIRETY of a souls game! Everything about these games was begging to be and has been utilized, except for the leveling system. There was never a reason to achieve over half of the possible levels simply because the game(s) punished you for doing so. Now there's a reason to go well beyond level 200, damn near to max level for some people, and still experience something new! This could still potentially be a bad thing in some ways. For those in the community with the know-how, Fromsoft basically just handed everyone a briefcase and some launch codes. Things might get _wild_ for a bit..

[@scottwilly86]

thank you for no spoilers. it's hard to find info without ruining things. so far everyone in PVP seems to be running the same bleed build around level 50 or so from my experience. I haven't found anyone with too many unique or interesting builds. I'm hoping as I level up I start to see more creativity

[@KingTigerGuy]

I wonder what this does for the level brackets overall seen in DS3, beyond the "meta" of 125. Im not sure if it was just for casual or normal outside play, but from what i have been told and found, the gameplay PvP break points in DS3 were, 30-45 for early game, 60 and 85 for mid game/gank city, 120-125 for late game, 133 for the arena, and 150 was the max out point, beyond that not a lot of people would be found, or it would end up becoming pure havels and other silly stuff like that. From what i see here, i think the end point will likely come up to 200 or more, for this dueling it could end up being like 150, despite the base damage being a bit crazy.

[@siahronx7700]

I have one concern. Does the potentially higher level damage stats outscale the higher level health/resistance values? Would it become a one shot meta essentially or do they equalize in practice?

[@jacobberglund9085]

anyone who is suggest a meta over 100 goes to a 1 shot meta. In all honesty 60 vigor is going to be the norm in builds so you dont get 1 shot and thats a lot of levels

[@c4veman]

my guy, i’m playing at 160 right now with full bull goat set with 2.1k HP getting one shot by bleed builds and two shot by moonveil which btw, with 133 poise, i can not poise through. on the other side, i’ve seen 133 poise builds using moonveil just holding the unsheathe stance until someone attacks and trading with them. there is simply too much possible at 150. i think meta should be 105-110 because of the knot tears and scarseals. Your flask gives you a free 20 skill points and a scarseal will give you another 20. using these items at 110 even you out to 150.

[@johnrobert6794]

@@c4veman did you just say flasks??!?! Bro if you are using flasks in a duel that's just disrespectful and bummy

[@zaxmaxlax]

Taking out hyper armor and going back to DS1 poise while most armor until late game don't have enough poise making the gameplay literally demon's souls was a mistake.

[@christianl3314]

yes, playing at 100-120 will be much more fun. Instead of havel-mages and havel Dex-bois.

[@JerdMcLean]

Very insightful

[@AuroraVR]

I smiled so hard when you mentioned the OG Demon's Souls, fighting in 4-1 with my +5 Moon Uchi and +5 Moon Meridian Hammer, the nostalgia hits hard man.

[@ronnierubel5664]

You take a lot of damage in this I noticed in certain areas and by bosses. But your damage output is pretty high as long as your weapon is leveled so it’s definitely a interesting experience to be 2-5 shot while dealings lots a of damage to bosses (especially when using certain weapons)

[@bbluva20]

Good, I’m about half that right now and I really want to keep pushing my build, feels barely even half complete.

[@Sneece]

Can I just say this is the best Intro I have heard in a long time haha

[@Bagel920]

Another point to consider with strength and dex is the ability to add extra strength and dexterity through charms and the Wonderous Physick. I’ve been using a Strength Knot tear in my Physick that grants 10 extra strength for free, for 3 minutes. Add in a Scarseal and now I have 15 strength added to my total level, without needed to level up any

[@Zacharadus]

I think probably around 150 and I dare say even 160 might be the level that the community settles with. Really allows for some flexibility while filling out those stats that can speed up gameplay (more endurance and mind). My bet is one of those two numbers or somewhere in between

[@stock6600]

I mean, we now have a sorcery that requires 70 int to cast it. 70! And yeah, I noticed when I leveled vigor past 30 and bonuses started getting bigger and not smaller? My mind was blown

[@GuuJiYA-a.k.a-TheCrafty]

Nice work man.

[@Jay-jn1pv]

Hey thanks for this video It is very helpful and informative. Question though if are already above level 200 are you completely screwed from pvp battling and the such?

[@yikes6758]

I REALLY hope that the meta level is 150. dark souls 2 had a 150 meta and it really felt so much more flexible! of course in that game you leveled up faster, but I still think it would be an excellent level regardless with how many rune farms there are *actually after looking at a stat planner, 150 seems kinda low if you're trying to maintain 80 in your damage stat or 50/50 split between two (str/dex, str/fth, dex/int etc) and also have 60 vigor. I think 175 might end up giving the perfect room for varieties of builds to breathe. that being said it might not be necessary to hit the softcaps for damage in your builds in this game? but I'd be very comfy in 175 if it works out

[@rivercatmeow]

Really curious how good Arcane is gonna be after we figure everything out... so far it feels really strong using dragon incantations right now but we might only be scratching the surface on potential damage due to how the softcaps are in this game, its almost scary!

[@MykahMaelstrom]

From what I've seen i believe arcane softcap is 80 just like str and dex. But arcane scaling is a bit bugged at the moment. Right now arcane is really strong though because bleed does % damage and on arcane scaled bleed weapons arcane increases the bleed build up. Whats even more busted is blocking or dodging through a bleed triggering attack only prevents the raw damage not the bleed build up. Meaning even when the attack damage doesn't land you're still building those huge bleed bursts

[@kevinsingh2815]

all i've played is arcane. and like the stat, the weapons that scale with arcane and the lore and locations where arcane is prevalent. it's ....complicated

[@Chevalier_knight]

Bless has always worked that way

[@maphazar7549]

@@kevinsingh2815 just so you know with arcane being bugged as of today there is only 1 weapon that scales with arcane, the rest don't actually get a damage increase like they should.

[@gp5925]

I have an Arcane/Blood incantation build. Around 60 points into Arc and I use spells like Blood Boon, Swarm of flies, Bloodflame talons etc and it’s pretty good. The spells build up bleed in literal seconds and not to mention the insane bleed buildup I have on my +25 Blood Uchi aha

[@JamesJones-cg3ff]

respect.. subscribed!

[@in_the_shell]

Thank you for [redacting] the spoiler, you made very good arguments and I hope more people start discussing this, and also reaching an agreement \`[T] /

[@innovation_s6079]

something i've been very worried about is going past that level 125 only for people to decide not to go past that and now i'm struggling to find duels

[@dangitjm]

For now, I'd say to stick around 125 until a larger consensus has been made.

[@Goofzillers]

You could make a backup of your save at 125, and then level as you'd like and fall back on it if things don't work out.

[@Reff41]

You haven't mentioned the Scarseal- +5 to Vig, End, Str, Dex, a base level prisoner can then not invest any stats in dex and use the moonveil.

[@27455628]

but the +15% damage received tho

[@Oni____]

@@27455628 that's nothing when you can either block or dodge, especially for the boosts it gives you

[@crimdus5041]

@@27455628 the health it gives you negates that dmg increase

[@hhlptf]

In my experience so far ive noticed that basically from the beginning you can 1 shot people with easy to get early game builds, personally i think with these huge softcaps that im gonna want to be able to put more points into hps and damage so i can maybe take 2 hits instead of just 1 (keep in mind there are so many elements in the game theres really no way you can prep for all of them and playing as an off meta element can beat anyone with a 1 shot build) and with all these options and builds available id hate to put a limit on them "for the sake of ultimate balance" which is simply unachievable anyways. This game is so big lets just embrace the change and raise the cap

[@TomPerryification]

Happy to see your content for elden ring Dangitjm!

[@boundary2580]

So basically: PvPers want 55-60 vigor no exceptions. 25-30 endurance (more depending on equipment). Mind depends on caster build but you want over 20 on caster. 70-80 in damage stat, with a 50-50 or 60-60 split if doing multiple stats. I think this can be doable but it requires research into specific soft caps and a lot of community agreement on dueling locations and so forth. It also 100% requires content creators to talk about PvP and build the community up. I’m excited.

[@KingJobber]

20 endurance is fine. Things cost way less stamina in this game and if you really want hyper heavy armor just run the Arsenal or Jar charm.

[@ReavenM1911A1]

@@KingJobber IMO we should stll aim for 30 endurance for a "normal" build. That way spell casters can get a little bit of mind without going soreseal

[@Rehvion]

40 vigor is my endstop. At SL 50 ;)

[@VirusesX01]

Question: Has the community found ''THE" duel arena area yet? The ds3 Pontiff, The ds2 Bridge, ds1 Oolacile, etc.

[@kayn8509]

Hopefully the spot has a nice view

[@Lufaine01]

The First Step (first grace outside of the tutorial)

[@valkerionrides9879]

The ring at the raya lucaria academy

[@xReifox]

Very interresting video, thanks for the precious information about scaling! Tho, until we get a pvp arena, there is no meta as you said in the beginning. If your build is level 150-200, the only thing to do in pvp is to invade and you probably won't find a lot of people.

[@egoalter1276]

You will. Just a normal playthrough takes a character easily to 170. The game is new, and froms biggest release so far. You have active pvp scenes up till the endgame. Its pretty irrelevant what 'the community decides on', the pvp levelcap will just end up being the endgame avrage level, because the amount of plqyers who dont follow these discussions vastly outnuber the ones who do.

[@demodemascus8164]

I really would like to see the level cap at higher levels, however, it becomes rather costly the higher you go, so if people start to congregate at like, say level 160, it could become a pain just to get to that level.

[@pabloescobar406]

Not really, played through game, cleared every location, don't used any runes farm, just consumable runes and my level was near 150. End game locations provide ton of runes.

[@jonathansanchezberaldo3010]

Also there s a lot of farming rutes that you can do to get like 100k in like 2 min

[@franciscofaria1778]

Thats easy bro

[@shaggySuave]

might be worth considering whether hitting damage stat softcaps is even necessary- shit hits hard as hell even at old-style 40/40 quality. could be interesting to have pvp that doesn't result in a battle to see who gets oneshot first :P i ended my first playthrough at SL137 on my vagabond and still got whacked thoroughly by some of the last bosses

[@hedgeyes6411]

stat requirements and the 60 vig tax, mostly. 125 works fine for 40 vig but you fucking NEED 60 vigor even if only for pve, and you can't afford to take anything out of 125 to fit in that 60 vig

[@williamhenderson2661]

I’m excited to play this for the next few years

[@colossalcobra390]

So what level would mind and endurance be recommended? Also great video!

[@Garl_Vinland]

Honestly, after replaying DeS, 120 PvP always devolved into two builds: Doran’s with DBS, or Doran’s with dual uchis. I found the most diverse builds were in the SL 50 range

[@erupter76500]

We must not have been playing the same game then

[@Garl_Vinland]

@@erupter76500 Oh yeah, forgot to mention the Magic dorito hat insanity catalyst magic glass canon that cancel casts firestorm.

[@rlsplays9212]

I’m thinking at least 175. Reason being just for your top of the range strength build, 60 vigor, 66 strength and a mere 25 endurance, you’re already looking at 151, that’s without a few points into some extra required stats for certain weapons/incantations. I think 165-175 will be a comfortable margin for all builds, even dex builds will need to scale arcane or faith as a lot of the better dex weapons/builds have a sub stat to scale. And if you want to be a full on batte mage you’re already looking at 150 as a minimum

[@wegotclass]

60 vigor, 66 strength and 25 endurance puts you at about 115/120. For 150 you can have 60 vigor, 25 mind, 35 endurance, 66 strength, 18 dex.

[@rlsplays9212]

@@wegotclass 60+66 = 126 + 25 =151? No? That’s 204 from what you were proposing. Unless you’re talking about 33 strength and then 2 handing? I’m not sure how you’re working this one out? Regardless I think around 170 is a good upper limit

[@KameronEX]

@@rlsplays9212 170 can let you have vig and 2 damage stats soft capped. that would literally mean everybody would play hybrid builds and have max health to boot. Game should be balanced around having 2 stats soft capped not 3. If you want to invest in 3 stats you have to take them all down a notch.

[@dylanmaloy4332]

NO

[@wegotclass]

@@rlsplays9212 Unfortunately no, you can't get your rune level by adding together all of your stats, as you start off with 10 of each stat at level 1. Try searching for elden ring build planner and you can see what I mean.

[@majorlemming8099]

yeah this was crazy helpful