The Metalcore Trick You're Hearing EVERYWHERE

[@francobuzzetti9424]

modern meral guys : " check out this new trick!" every EDM guy: " yeah.. we've been doing this as default as soon as we opened a daw" and i'm all for it! i love mixing organic and electronic sounds so much

[@AndrewP]

@@francobuzzetti9424 yes. Is actually so cool seeing these techniques getting in the modern metal-ish genres. I hope this will bring a new Celldweller, Pendulum, Blue Stahli, Qemists -like wave of artists/music.

[@NullSignal]

Wait...people don't usually sidechain their bass? [shockedpikachu gif]

[@andrewjacobs5579]

@@AndrewP lol No it isn't

[@fountane]

Literally lol

[@xradical89x]

haha I thought the same

[@DOLODAN808]

I’ve been listening to this album for two weeks straight now no bs

[@ayeapprove]

album of the year, Will did a freaking amazing job producing this

[@livingroomforsmall]

@@DOLODAN808 sameeee

[@touchofdeath1736]

What album

[@ayeapprove]

@@touchofdeath1736 american motorsports

[@fobiaisnotreal]

As a lot of people already pointed out, separating the Sub form the bass is a standard EDM practice most common in the heaviest subgenres such as DnB and Dubstep (ect etc etc etc), which like all of you I'm happy as well it reached the Metal community, idk it gives off this feeling of unity I don't really know how to explain it but I thin y'all get what I'm trying to say

[@WompRok]

There's some pretty solid edm metal these days. I recommend checking out Zardonic & some of the more metal Code:Pandorum

[@NoThumbsJustin]

Edm is garbage who cares what edm kids do

[@thelionzmusic]

If you want another crazy tip, you can high pass everything below 30hz to stop the infrasound that’s not replicated on speakers from hitting the limiter. Also, create a low pass filter on everything over 90hz that you can turn off and on so you ONLY hear the low frequencies, perfect for hearing exactly what your sidechain is doing, and the kick/sub relationship.

[@nj1255]

1:18 I don't know if his theory is lacking or if he's talking about something else, but a D1 on a drop-D tuned bass is at 36.708Hz. The fundamental of a recorded bass is ofc much more dynamic and all over the place than a simple sub synth is, but that's why we usually crush the shit out of the lows with a multiband comp on bass guitars. Layering a sub synth is also a good way of keeping the dynamics of the sub frequencies at a minimum, but you also need to make sure that the bass synth and bass guitar are phase coherent and that the bass synth ducks for the kick (since all three instruments will be competing in roughly the same frequency range).

[@Durkhead]

Your freq is way off i tuned my bass down to f# and it was mostly at 50hz. In A the freq i boost and compress is 80hz to 100hz

[@rome8180]

@@Durkhead No, he's correct. A low E on a bass in standard tuning is 41 Hz. You can easily google this. So it makes sense that a D would be at 36 Hz. The F# you tuned down to us F#0. That's 23Hz according to Fab Filter Pro-Q3. The 50 Hz you're seeing is the first harmonic. Same thing with when you're boosting 80 Hz to 100 Hz in dropped A. You're working with the harmonic that's one octave up from the fundamental. You're right to boost there because it's more audible, but that doesn't mean it's the fundamental.

[@rome8180]

You're right that the fundamental is at 36 Hz. But that doesn't mean that's where the bulk of the audible frequency is. At those frequencies, the harmonics can often be more audible than the fundamental. A clean sub synth can offer something closer to a pure fundamental.

[@Durkhead]

@@rome8180 i dont need to google it i measured it myself just because you saw a chart deosnt mean your right

[@blacksaona]

if you cut frequencies there is no need to be phase coherent. ie low cut on 100hz on bass, hi cut on 100 on sub synth

[@AndrewP]

Isn't that what Celldweller's been doing for the past 20 years?

[@vasprovatakis]

Celldweller’s had about a 10 year head start on the whole Post-Hardcore genre. Blue Stahli was ahead of the curve too.

[@iamwontolla]

blue stahli mentioned lfggggg

[@joshs5418]

Every edm producer has done this since the beginning of the genre haha

[@Illiyinmusic]

Literally no one said it wasn't. Just using a current popular band as an example lmao. Hipster nerds just have to jump in with, *pushes up glasses* well "um actually celldweller.". You're probably in every metalcore video.. "shai hulud was the first" when it was really aftershock. Also celldweller wasn't the first one to do it.. you're just insufferable 😅

[@ricksterdrummer2170]

@@Illiyinmusic Eat a snickers, Hilly.

[@thelionzmusic]

How do people not know you can do this? I would’ve thought having an 808 under your main bass, high passed so they don’t clash, and side chained to the kick was production 101. Layering is key for filling out sounds, especially guitars and a layered vocoder for vocals also sounds beautiful in choruses!

[@1-eye-willy]

i just stuff my bass drum with a small comfortor or large blanket to take up the space in chamber to get that thud, but just enough space in the chaber to get that deep bass-ie sound. call me old school but i will always record reral drums over the daw

[@mjbdough7920]

I was hoping this video was gonna be a a meme about Bilmuri’s “bottom”

[@sgfdancecompany]

track spacer from wavesfactory is also a go to for sidechain

[@teddystevens6624]

You could use a transient shaped to make the transient’s of the synth bass less aggressive

[@apoplexiamusic]

Or just roll off the attack of the sub and the other bass synth

[@UraharaNaoe21]

@@apoplexiamusicthat would work, but the transient shaper would cause less phase shift especially in the low end.

[@Lycorephotography]

Thanks

[@charizardmaster13]

Love people treating this like metalcore production because they clearly can't understand the genre bending blimuri does😂 its literally pop music with heavy guitars and thats what makes it awesome

[@porchdream4683]

JST sub destroyer is pretty cool too!

[@natecorning]

I personally dont care for the synth bass. Its super noticeable in some Bilimuri songs especially Blindsided, and honestly sounds like my speakers are rattling in the car when I listen there. Still overall a great mix though, and I love seeing these mix breakdowns

[@Phil_MacHawk]

I thought the speakers in my car were blown 😂 It took me a couple days to figure it out.

[@josealberca]

Great trick honestly but I've seen people doing years ago. Sure it was Nick Mavromatis. This guy's mixes are so good, I'm surprised you guys haven't done an episode with him on mixing some October Ends.

[@Temperjames]

The drum intro......... wait for it...... Fightstar. Yeah! Can't unhear it now

[@jonnymingo8386]

Which Fightstar song?

[@shona5512]

I don't think I've ever encountered a fightstar listener outside of a conversation about Busted or Charlie Simpson

[@jonnymingo8386]

@@shona5512 my favourite band of all time... There are dozens of us!

[@Temperjames]

@@jonnymingo8386 Palahniuks Laughter!! I just went back and listened again, it’s funny even the drum reverb sounds identical haha.

[@Temperjames]

@@shona5512 it’s funny I’m not even that big a fan, in the sense I don’t actively listen to fightstar regularly but they’re a great band. That first Ep is just burned in my memory cos I listened to it loads back in 2005. Seen them on that first ever tour but after that kinda fell away!

[@BristiJahan-o8k]

Sally Fork

[@WillyJunior]

Do you like the Soothe method of bass/kick sidechaining? I've had mixed results.

[@BukanIbuMu]

I prefer Pro-MB. Soothe release is too slow even on the fastest settings.

[@WillyJunior]

@@BukanIbuMu that's been my experience. I'll try Pro-MB!

[@PaulEubanks]

Soothe is only good for side chain ducking when there's a lot of frequency overlap between the instruments you're fitting together. It's also NOT the fastest compressor, contrary to what this dude says, and mostly operates only on resonant frequencies (or all of them if you open up the threshold like they're doing here). It also burns a TON of CPU. It's a resonant suppressor, that is often mis-used as a side chain compressor. You're much better off using a gate like Shaperbox or Gatekeeper tbh, but most DAWs have ultra fast compressors built-in. Logic's FET compressor is more than fast enough for rock or metal. If you need more precision you'd use an MSEG curve, EDM peeps have done this for decades.

[@WillyJunior]

@@PaulEubanks ya I usually just draw in EQ automation manually. It doesn't even take that long if it's just something like kick and bass separation and you're guaranteed full control

[@xradical89x]

clean sine is worse than a slightly saturated one mixing wise. shave the tops a tiny bit so it's not as round and you'll have much more flexibility with it frequency wise and make the mixing easier as opposed to having a clean sine sub. just a friendly piece of advice from an electronic music producer

[@Robbie-uw2mp]

I have Ana 2 and all the expansions and the Electro God preset doesnt exist. Where is everyone finding it??

[@TrentKoritansky-ob6bh]

Pretty sure it’s a preset he made himself

[@IanBeato]

It's funny listening to metal dudes discover electronic production techniques and attempt to gate keep them until "enough people start doing it" or whatever lol you want a ReAl PrO tIp?? Use Laser by Sweetsonics for your sidechaining. Literally any sample accurate "ducker" will work and probably be cheaper than Soothe2.

[@xXscissors_61Xx]

Gated kick sub? Am I missing something?

[@nikht0]

Q: if your bass' sub is a programmed synth or sample, rather than sidechain it to the kick for ducking, would it be effective to just move the sub's MIDI notes back 1/16th of a note or however long the kick lasts?

[@WompRok]

Or make the attack a little shorter? Literally anything except sidechaining your subs with a minimum phase plugin...are we crazy?

[@AndrewP]

@@nikht0 won’t sidechaining give you more control just in case though? Especially since there’s a sampled 808 which may have a longer decay. But I guess the better way to make sure they are properly separated would be rendering the synth bass as audio and editing all the transients where needed.

[@JPPWB]

You could but you'd have to move every note that lands with the kick manually. Across a whole track that can be a lot of work unless the kick pattern never changes.

[@PaulEubanks]

Or have your bass player play in the pocket better.

[@JPPWB]

@PaulEubanks I think you missed the bit where he said if you're using a synth for the sub bass.

[@OsbaldoVargas]

how come metal rock doesn't have a sub bass. I've always hated the way it's mixed. Like the beater sounds percussive in the high end.

[@ryanfishel9394]

Does anyone know if he keeps the bass synth in hard mono or does he let it mix in a bit with the stereo guitars?

[@infernalstygian6336]

This is a trick from jst originally i believe.

[@camdenwyeth316]

so based, pun intended

[@manucarrascomusic]

If you have problems with the transient of the supporting bass tracks, it can be easily solved by adjusting the AMP attack on the synth/sampler. If needed, changing the settings of the pitch modulation can help.

[@apoplexiamusic]

But what is the low cut off of the real bass so that it doesn’t clash with the sub ?

[@UraharaNaoe21]

The sub goes below the fundamentals of the lowest bass guitar notes because the guitars are in drop D.

[@RoyalSubjectsMusic]

Why tf is everyone pointing out that sidechain has existed forever in EDM. Yeah no shit.

[@WompRok]

Is soothe2 really the...fastest....sidechain...for....a.....kick....and....bass.....??? I use it for more high frequency sidechaining all the time, why not use the dynamics of an EQ or multiband compressor?

[@AnimusOpus]

I think it's only fast because you don't have to think about it and you can recall it easily for other mixes without really any tweaking. It's more precise in how the frequencies are being ducked but it probably uses more cpu.

[@WompRok]

@@AnimusOpus I'm pretty sure he's talking about the quick response of the plugin, which I agree with. Personally I would use a linear phase plugin for frequency dependent low-end sidechaining, that's gotta be doing some wild & inconsistent shit to the phase response, even if the kicks were all exactly the same. ProQ3 dynamics is great (I use Kirchoff EQ), or ProMB? Something linear. Maybe they fix all the low end phase with the 808s and whatnot after the fact, just seems a like it would make a lot more work? Either way, record sounds great! I personally just love talking about low end sidechaining.

[@AnimusOpus]

@@WompRok I use TDR nova with a dynamic band for the same trick, fast attack and release. Can't afford some of these spicy plugins yet. I've been doing this trick for a few years now. Now it's the thing to use soothe 2 to do it. I can't really hear if it's that much better or not.

[@WompRok]

@AnimusOpus honestly, I try to stay away from using frequency dependent sidechaining in the low end, but of course it can be done. TDR Nova is great for freeware, but like Soothe2, looks like it does not have a linear phase mode. I'm sure if you tweak either Nova or Soothe a little bit, you can get them to sound pretty good, but if you haven't already done this, check out the waveform of the kick and bass in an oscilloscope, you might see some crazy inconsistent dovetailing happening between your kick and bass. If I remember correctly, I saw Will Putny doing some kick/bass sidechaining in a similar way using an EQ (ProQ3?) in the Mistakes Like Fractures nail the mix stream, and I believe he deliberately said he preferred using the minimum phase mode. I find it interesting because I've learned everything about low end sidechaining from Noisia & other dnb type tutorials, where this method seems to be highly frowned upon. I understand why, but at the end of the day if it sounds good it is.

[@AnimusOpus]

@@WompRok That sounds really interesting. I'll have to look up that video. I know in metal and some bass music it's very useful if applied correctly. I've never actually thought about the minimum or linear phase aspect of it. Makes sense though. Thank you for the insight.

[@patrox247]

I only listen to Ice Spice and this doesn’t sound like Ice Spice

[@sidvicious332]

I don't wanna come back down from this cloud! Lol that seems straight ripped from stp

[@dembuck610]

Its a classic Bush song from the 90s

[@CrowkeeperStudios]

lol... wtf is this... If the goal here is to make it sound like it's the bass guitar having that extra low end, this fails at that. It sounds like a synth doing it, because it is. You can literally just multiband compress the bass guitar below 50hz or 45 hz and squash it pretty good and bring up the frequencies that the bass guitar is putting out under 50hz, and you can do it all without the time it takes to do all this junk. Also, Drop D is definitely below 40hz, so yea.

[@AndrewP]

@@CrowkeeperStudios probably going for a very specific sound.

[@PaulEubanks]

This is the way

[@VARVIS_]

This album sounds SO fat. thanks for sharing some tips on it

[@MichaelLenz1]

What you suggest instead of soothe2?

[@darkroot_]

so sidechaining a low sub under your bass? simple as.

[@pedrolourenco2707]

midi metal core :D

[@everettleach]

Midicore??? 🤔

[@actualGolem]

I have no idea what’s going on in this video

[@SoundAloneband]

Pretty sure this isn't exactly new. Just a different way to do it.

[@fienix]

Send the bass guitar to an Aux channel with the SubBass plugin that comes default with Logic. No sampling or midi required. Save yourself some time. Cheers.

[@livingroomforsmall]

As a mixing perspective, is there a reason why all your waveforms seem to be brick walled/slammed? Just curious what this achieves!

[@thelionzmusic]

Just an insane amount of compression, for consistency I guess? Reduces transients clashing with vocals if I have to guess, making it all sound buttery smooth? Not sure.

[@alexsdstudios6580]

Its just that he has the Logic waveform all zoomed in, it's not the clip gain.

[@livingroomforsmall]

@@alexsdstudios6580 Ahhhh this makes sense. Tried doing that in our sessions, definitely see what he's seeing now - thank you!!

[@kieronmckay4276]

Yeah or dupe your bass DI, low pass/high cut it to 100hz, compress it until it’s a block of sound with almost no dynamics and have your sub perfectly clean that hits like a truck without this mess. All your dirty bass stuff goes on a second track that’s low cut/high passed to 100hz. Some plugins do this automatically. You can of course multiband as well, I think the duped DI method gives a bit more control especially if you’re doing any automation. This adding a sub bass and synth thing is very odd and much more likely to cause random mix issues.

[@sidvicious332]

You sound smart. Maybe you should try it anyways. Just label as you go. I do save as frequently too so I can go back if I don't love my progress. Might be worth the trouble. Maybe not. You'll only know if you try. There's always some take away.

[@iliadodyssey3322]

You say that but have you ever done anything that made as much as billmuri?

[@kebbinator]

The problem is that both bass DI and especially bass amp tones don't have much information down in the range of the fundamental frequency. If you HPF at 100Hz, you'll get the low E fundamental at 40Hz but also the first harmonic at 80Hz which will probably be noticeably louder than the fundamental. If you used something like Surfer EQ to track the fundamental and HPF above that it might work, but a static HPF or MB crossover will not. For more raw and organic mixes I definitely wouldn't blend in a sub synth, but for genre-bending artists like Bilmuri, Polyphia, or even BMTH that have a lot of synthetic elements this is a super powerful trick to get the super solid, deep, synthetic low end you find in more EDM style genres. It all depends on the context.

[@noparkingnoparking]

​@@kebbinator your answer is the one, you use actual knowledge and point out bands that do this well. a lot of people in this comment section are just mad that this isn't the classic way they used to do things back in the olden times lol

[@xochitl12]

this isnt a metalcore trick, Jaycen Joshua made this up

[@JBMetalProductions]

Everyones doing this now guys... that means, if you want to sound original... don't do this. loll. Just use a piano for this kinda stuff. Hmmm this new modern metalcore is less heavy than Blink182, what happened to the baby we raised in the myspace era XD.

[@CrowkeeperStudios]

Hardcore agree on this. This "modern" Metalcore is pop music with guitars. I really don't know what happened to this genre at all.

[@voidii_8191]

🌽🚜🦅

[@icanrawrtooMC]

i feel like a busy idiot doing anything like this

[@stevetech5150]

i just do not care for all the buzz/distortion everyone is adding to their tracks. to my ears, after decades of getting music as clear and detailed as you can and attacking any distortion, people add it on purpose then compress the living shit out of it and its just a wall of noise destroying what could otherwise be decent music. low volume listening with distortion, terrible.

[@Kickitoldschool]

Tasteful application of saturation creates aggression, which is a desirable trait in heavy music. The fuzz/distortion stuff should be used sparingly for emphasis imo

[@LucasConforti]

next step in music production: mixing with parallel pink noise.

[@Kickitoldschool]

@@LucasConforti a good trick for balancing!

[@ParanormalArson]

Good, murder it all. Fuck clean.

[@jamesadamgleason9471]

It sounds like it would destroy a system (in a good way) on your phone and then when you play it on an actual system, it complete Doo Doo

[@fredscott9013]

This is all stuff hiphop productions have been doing forever. I'm not mad at it, but this kind of stuff isn't metal anymore.

[@AndrewP]

@@fredscott9013 billmuri is memecore, in a good way.

[@sidvicious332]

Hip hop producers rule the low end. Nobody is dirtier or cleaner than the hip hip producers. Lean into it dude. There's no rules. Its just what sounds best for the song at the end of the day.

[@shizzlecakes]

Honestly every genre of electronic music usually has something similar to this going on too

[@visvge4934]

No one cares

[@danielatherton1631]

Where is the core element? What about this is hardcore? Hardcore punk does not care about the frequencies in the sub range of bass. This is commercialisation.

[@AC-kw7xx]

All of the instruments sound fake and over produced.

[@screwdriver_bandit]

Every band these days is.

[@michaelmckinnie]

Welcome to modern metalcore. You either like the sound or don't. I love the larger than life sound personally

[@bengreenbank]

@@michaelmckinnie Shitter than shit more like.

[@bengreenbank]

It's fucking terrible.

[@neptun3189]

Was here for like a minute. I agree with the other guy. All this added noise and useless distortion just sounds like shit Whatever that was in the first 10 seconds was not my preference