The Midwinter Minis Drama is Terrible

[@darkmagpiestudios8222]

This coming from the guy who submitted a DREADNOUGHT in the predominately historical vehicle painting contest and won.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Fucking got me

[@freeRadioArmageddon]

😂

[@SOHellKite]

And don’t you forgot it?!

[@atomwyrm541]

I’d be that guy playing the Germans because no one else wants them so I get their half of the starter sets for dirt cheap lol.

[@georgewright9223]

^ This guy has it worked out.

[@petermillar8866]

There is a degree of separation, if you're a fully functioning adult you know it's a game and not real.

[@aceofspadesrob]

well my dad died in the horus heresy so 30k triggers me

[@matthewsmith2979]

That's exactly the point. These takes come from people who lack a certain level of maturity.

[@tajj7]

If you are painting swastikas on model tanks then really there is not enough of a separation IMO, you are literally talking about a symbol (iirc) banned in Germany still and being used by far right groups. The guy that just shot up a load of people in the US had a giant one tattooed on his body, is it ok to have it on model tank? not imo no it is not ok, not when you could have easily painted it up in wehrmacht colours and left the whole nazi and SS thing out of it. Not to mention you see people literally in SS uniforms, whilst there are still living holocaust survivors about, I mean come on no 'excuse' like 'historical accuracy' or other bollocks makes that ok IMO. The reaction he got is far more telling about the people getting triggered than really any issue with what he said, play the Germans fine, painting swastikas, ss symbols etc. on tanks no there is something wrong with you. Also honestly that argument works both ways, people making excuses for painting swastikas or wearing ss uniforms because it's 'historical accuracy', well its just a game, its just a reenactment, it doesn't matter if its 100% exact.

[@matthewsmith2979]

@@tajj7 no, not really. It's the same as building historical models. You cannot tell anything about a person from them making models. If you can't separate reality from make believe then the problem is in you.

[@tajj7]

@@matthewsmith2979 No you have a choice, if you choose to put probably the most hate based and controversial symbols onto a hobby, in a fucking game, then that says a lot about you. Its a fucking swastika, historical or not is irrelevant at that point, its not ok, its offensive, and its just not at all necessary.

[@verysilentmouse]

I was playing the bad guys so my father who was alive in the war could kill bad guys and I am very aware of the historical context and more than happy to discuss how bad the bad guys were.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Based

[@nofuxgivens2797]

There are players I've come up against who get mad at losing to Germans and role-play while throwing duce. They gate keep as well on paint jobs. Now, I choose to troll and painted my 2nd SS Panzer division. I only like the germans because their vehicles were historically better engineered

[@geoffdean2372]

You get a lot of right wing players who like the far right elements of 40k. You will get those people everywhere.

[@nofuxgivens2797]

@geoffdean2372 wtf is left or right wing nowadays. I think specific elements are just those elements. When you boil it down they are used by all depending who happens to have authority/power/favor/influence...40k or real life. I wonder what bolt action Ukraine v Russia will look like in a few years

[@turfdorbrittlebeard1674]

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - George Santayana

[@LeeHobbies]

WW2 movies exist, they inform and entertain. I got into Bolt Action by having a game with a mate who didn't fancy playing 40k that day, it was amazing. Since then I've grown my knowledge and appreciation of what happened in WW2 by a huge degree, and collected huge US Marine and Japanese armies. Knowledge is power in the fight against ignorance, and yes, fuck fascism! All the best Mikey.

[@egnaroelprup]

This was a great conversation (I was here for it live) and i was glad so many people were so rational about it I said it in the chat but there was nothing wrong with talking about this, even from mordian glory, and I hope nobody deletes their videos as removing them does damage to any discourse that has happened subsequently

[@HellstormWargaming]

Thanks for watching, just wanting to have a rational conversation :)

[@simonmallet5212]

Said the same thing on Mordians post (and Guy's). Not all germans were nazi's, not all nazi's were german.. Bigger problem I have found as some that plays both historical and fantasy is "paint police".. More likely to find people telling you those troops are painted "wrong" because that unit had M43 pattern jackets in 1944, not M2 pattern jackets..

[@Servus-Dei83]

tbh people play the Germans because they just have the coolest aesthetic, their uniforms were literally made by fashion company’s like hugo boss

[@8BitJesus]

Fuck, I didn’t watch MWM’s video because it was either going to be a tad click baity, or the comment section would be a dumpster fire, and I was quite happy to avoid it all, but now you’ve posted this - I NEED CONTEXT 😆

[@danielc-s8056]

I get that you're friends with Midwinter but the thing is calling people Nazis or racist have become a go to insults these days with little or no actual evidence. Guy didn't use a hook, he used a meme that's been weaponized I get you want to backup your friends. But. You also have to hold your friends to realistic standards. He did draw a line between playing Germans and actually being/supporting the Nazis. He did advertise a game where you play Nazis. He did try to create a moral high ground while doing this, and failed

[@joelwashere5382]

Well said dude 🤙

[@ZacharyShinn]

Lets also not forget, MidWinterMinis had a affair with his Co-host that recently caused a divorce and a breaking up of his kids💀💀💀

[@jameslawrence8734]

Let's not forget he and Penny weren't married so he fucked her harder than Hatty when he threw her out with nothing except their kids.

[@jaxsonhansen8112]

I believe this is exaggerated and vice versa. He is seeing his co host because of the breakup

[@wonderelk4prez706]

By this metric, most factions available in most historical war games are unplayable. Wanna be the romans? War crimes. Wanna be the Gauls? War crimes. Want to be any colonial power ever? War crimes. Huns, Chinese, Japanese, etc etc. You're not playing a faction to commit war crimes, or because you think murder is awesome. You're playing for the same reason you play any faction in any minis game; you like how they look and you like their rules. That's it, that's all it is.

[@SirFailsalot91]

And if you *_are_* playing as a faction because they committed war crimes and enjoy reenacting them on the tabletop, you may have a serious problem.

[@wonderelk4prez706]

@@SirFailsalot91 my point is that it's EVERY country in EVERY wargame, fictional or not. Every single military in all of human history has committed warcrimes at one point or another. So this argument is a fallacy. If you're not allowed to play a faction that has committed warcrimes, then miniature wargaming cannot exist

[@vanillaicecream2385]

@@SirFailsalot91 well i mean...... we do play 40k

[@SirFailsalot91]

@@wonderelk4prez706 and my point is that some folks are so enamored by the idea of committing war crimes against certain groups that they use the tabletop game as a way to live that fantasy out, and they certainly need help with such a fascination - it's pretty off-putting when the person across the table from you who's playing the Nazis is making comments about killing Jews all game. I'm not disagreeing at all, every faction in history has a dark side about it, I'm just adding that it's one thing to enjoy learning about history, even it's more grisly moments, but there's definitely a line between enthusiasm and actual bigotry.

[@SirFailsalot91]

@@vanillaicecream2385 there are no good guys in 40K, just endless armies of fascists trying to exterminate everyone else. At least the Tyranids and Orks don't discriminate, one will eat anything and the other will fight anything. lol

[@princesseponyboy1971]

I think most people missed the fact that Mordian Glory’s title is an exact copy of Guy’s but changing historical wargames to midwinter minis

[@BrewAndBiscuits]

My only issue with Midwinter Mini's video, is that he's just overthinking the whole thing IMO. And I think the main reason people don't play historical games is just because its not as ''cool'' and its not fantasy/sci-fi. You're limited by history and limited to real paint schemes etc. You're not free to really do what you want with your models and there's not cool stuff like giant mechs running around. The idea that Midwinter is getting any kind of harassment though is ridiculous. Its just a video with his thoughts and theories on why people don't play a game. Why do people have to be so reactionary?

[@mattnottm8363]

You've made more relevant points here about why people don't play WWII historical than Guy did in his video. The obvious one I thought he missed would be "the player base are all old.." , as in they're dying off. But none of them came up. So rather than overthinking it, I believe he just picked the one angle he wanted to go with knowing it would get the most attention . Views are views after all.

[@shadowknght22]

​@Matt Nottm he did mention sci-fi stuff watch the whole video

[@rasmuskock8077]

I also think a very big problem with his video, is how he only really focused on the negatives. He went on an on about hwy people might not like historical wargames, and the only real time he saqw it from an axis-player perspective, was when he said far-right groups might like to play them That is not how you do a video, because he made it sound like every axis player is a nazi, because that's literally the only example he gave, as to why people play them

[@Ruffy112]

Exactly, it's so so obvious and they didn't need to go down the ExtraCredit route... But they did. And they got shit for it. No personal attacks, threats or boycotting etc needed or even warranted. That is just... What the hell?! People make mistakea, let them live. That being said, we should all come out as a front and show that that opinion or explanation is absolutely idiotic and needs to be disregarded. It has been idiotic when ExtrCredit did it. It has been idiotic when Boomers did it in the 90s and 00s with WWII shooters. It has always been an incredibly moronic take and shows the absolute lack of any understanding of the matter. Thus, it should be criticised brutally and harshly. The oponion, that is. Not the people. Let them learn, move on and live

[@mattnottm8363]

@terrance watkins Read my whole comment because I never said Guy didn't mention Sci Fi stuff. I took your advice though and watched his video (again) and came away with the following thoughts; - Guy said the "over the top vibe" makes playing as the bad guys "more palatable" before acknowledging that playing out what could be seen as "horrific warcrimes" is "fun because its not real" - During the ad for the sponsor Guy says it's "very satisfying blowing up ships with the biggest guns ever made". Considering the Germans and Japanese had some of the biggest guns during WW2, this means Guy doesn't have an issue playing as the Axis powers but will only admit it if he's paid to do so. - Late in the video Guy says that it is widely accepted that Bolt action is just a better game than 40k. He could've compared and contrasted the gameplay rather than doing a half arsed 'painting tutorial' with an unrelated voice-over. But, as the video will likely be demonoritized by KZbin, you can see why he isn't interested in putting in this kind of effort. So my point still stands. He's said Bolt Action is a better game and admitted he doesn't mind or enjoys playing games set in WW2 (regardless of what his girlfriend wants him to think, but only if hes getting paid to say so). He's not come up with any real reasons why the game isn't more popular with players, but did show why its not popular with KZbin creaters, as they make less money from it.

[@mattnottm8363]

@5:08 Guy says he's curious about why historical gaming isn't as popular as others like Warhammer whilst not wanting to accuse anyone of anything.......... before going on to bring up the far right and accuse people of being linked to them if they play as the Germans. The obvious answer is that most of the players will be old as fuck by now with little to no young blood coming in to the hobby. He knew what he was doing. With him claiming to like playing World Of Warships (which i doubt) I got the impression he was encouraged to do something WWII related, which he didn't really want to do, in order to reach a different audience. After this video i guess Guy and his girlfriend can go back to painting the more acceptable fantasy space fascists.

[@bantabury]

We should have problems playing as all the factions, then. Britain - Need I bring up the horrendous shit the Empire did before, during, and after the war? America - Mass slaughter of natives, nuking civilians, forcing lesser nations into democracy against their will. Japan - They make the Nazis blush. France - Their African colonies have QUITE the bone to pick with them, especially after the war when Empires were fizzling out. It's just a game. Most people who collect these things are, most of the time, just historical enthusiasts. I own Nazi militaria, I own Soviet militaria, I own British militaria. I am all for the preservation of history in a world hell bent on trying to destroy the dark side of our past and pretend it never happened.

[@syrupoffig4865]

I couldn't get over how the sponsor on the MWM video was a battleships game where you can play as WW2 Germans 😂😂😂. Doesn't he wonder about people who play that game too?

[@KaosKittyStudios]

In my owm experience i feel the difference in popularity tends to stem more from the fact alot of people find history boring because of how it is taught, and history nerds (i count myself among this group) can come on a little strong on the accuracy side of things that most ppl just arent looking for in a hobby. The reason i dont play historicals is none of my friends are interested enough in history to play that instead of Song of Ice and Fire, 40k, HH, AOS, Middle Earth etc etc. These worlds and stories that they get legitmate enjoyment out of and can now play. I dont know of it is still this way but i also find historicals are a bit less new player friendly in the rules than many miniature war games (many not all)

[@BreakfastwithBando]

"living memory" well ive never heard anyone ever have any issue with Team yankee, Bolt action Korea, or the myriad of Vietnam, cold war, or even Global war on terror games that are out there. pff living memory

[@AllThingsCubey]

Oh hey, fancy seeing you here. Yeah I have... Issues with Mikey's response to the drama here. I honestly think the issue is hyper sensitivity. People are leaping to the defence of hypothetical individuals who might be offended by a game someone else is playing because it features armies from evil regimes in history, and then Mikey says "it's just called not being a dickhead" in context of being considerate for these hypothetical offended individuals. Well, yeah, sure. If my game group had members with a personal connection to certain battles in WW2, I'd probably steer away from making an army relevant to those events. Games like Bolt Action exist within a sphere of trust and understanding of your group in the same way as roleplaying games like world of darkness. There are nasty topics involved that require mature handling and some people are simply not going to be comfortable being exposed to that, in which case you don't expose them to it. That's being considerate. Not telling people their hobby is problematic and making ridiculous accusations about them being sus of far right beliefs, because of your personal discomfort with historicals, or even a hypothetical discomfort of someone you don't even know or hasn't even been exposed to the hobby. It just feels like artificial drama and a lot of reach, especially the bit about living memory. When were WW2 games and stories most popular? The generations literally straight after the war. Commando comics, etc. 1950s and 1960s were a concentrated diet of War Stories for kids. The further we get from these events the more people who have nothing to do with them are getting hyper-sensitive on behalf of others they've not even met...

[@beaverdam1199]

@@AllThingsCubey But not All German soldiers where bad? Playing a Whermacht army in the Eastern front in 1942 or on the western front in 1944 or North africa in 1943 is not bad at all, playing as the SS doesn't make much sense, but playing for the Whermacht the standard German army is fine 65% of them didn't believe in Hitler or the his party he stood for, most showed remorse and that was why nearly all Whermacht soldiers at the end of the war where let go after short sentences, whereas SS where executed on the spot from 1944 onwards on the Western front. Saying they where all bad is a pretty wide insult accross the millions of Germans who died fighting not for the regime but to keep themselves alive or the family they loved.

[@grantus27]

Sorry, this ended up as an essay so I've given it point numbers like a complete dork. If you never read past this line, I enjoyed your video and I've subscribed :) 1) You've made the point that because something happened "within living memory" that it's inappropriate. Sadly Joe Cattini passed away recently aged 100, one of the UK's last remaining D-Day veterans. Very soon, likely within the next five years, we will have no more living links with the men and women who served during WW2 - That will be a very sad day indeed. However, if you look at some of the history of scale modelling etc, it was the men who served in the 1940's who were buying their sons airfix kits in the 1960's. This is not a brand new phenomenon which has just appeared and suddenly people are finding it "problematic". 2) In *my experience* the WW2 wargaming community is nice to play games against and alongside and they are also really well read on their subject. There's loads of history geeks that are also wargame geeks - they treat it like a game but also with a certain degree of understanding of what the pieces on the table mean and what the significance of it is. It also means that the community can spot a wrong 'un almost immediately. I would never claim there aren't historical players out there of bad faith but very few and far between. Whereas in the 40k fandom it seems to be well reported that there is an alt-right problem - GW have had to release multiple statements on it in fact. You can often spot these characters calling each other "brother" unironically on social media. That tournament player in Spain entered as "Austrian Painter" with the fascist tattoos immediately springs to mind. Don't you think YOUR community should do more to get its house in order?! The problem is in YOUR game system, I would argue, more than it's a problem in mine. 3) You keep chuckling away to yourself saying "That's not what he (Guy) said". Mate, that is a fucking cop out. Here's why: The "Just Asking Questions" Fallacy. Questions, just like statements, can trigger all kinds of cognitive bias. It also attempts to shift the burden of proof to ones opponent. Sure, Guy says he's "just asking questions" on why historical wargames (WW2) aren't more popular...but I think he's "just asking questions" from one side of his mouth. Yes, I know the immediate response is "But Guy never said he thinks ALL people who play historicals are problematic!" - Yes, I know that's not what he *said*. But he's sort of planting the seed in peoples minds that they might be. It's a rhetorical device for phrasing a belief as a question in an intellectually dishonest way. Having watching the Midwinter Minis video several times I've come to the conclusion that he's not "Just Asking Questions" in good faith (in a part of the hobby he's just begun to dabble in no less). 4) I wish people like Guy would get their head around this: If you don't like it, if you think it's inappropriate or problematic, then that's fine. It doesn't seem like anyone will be able to debate you off of that point. But don't you think you could just, like, leave other people alone to enjoy their wargaming without casting aspersions on their character or politics?

[@bowler9785]

There's no "Alt Right" problem in 40k. One guy at a random event in Spain is nothing, get over yourself mate.

[@grantus27]

@@bowler9785 Well I quoted that incident but it's hardly the only one. There's plenty written about it online. Also, Dunno why you had to be quite so rude to be honest.

[@SpaceWarlock]

Ive no problem playing the Nazis, those SS uniforms had drip.

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

And the fascists have the outfits But I don't care for the outfits What I care about is music And the communists have the music

[@thatgenericdixienormouspicguy]

Those Officer uniforms were dope as fuck.

[@8BitJesus]

Ah, I watched it - what a shit video, honestly. They're supposed to shine a light on non-GW games, and all that came out of it was, "i feel a bit weird playing as the Nazis. People who play them might be power gamers or nazi sympathisers". There was a real opportunity to showcase a really good gaming system, instead there was a definite feeling that if you play the Axis, you're a bad person. A real let down. There wasn't any discussion about why BA isn't as popular as 40k, the immediate thing was "because Nazi's". There are obvious reasons, BA players are probably older, it's harder to buy the kits, GW are a huge company compared to Warlord. He could've talked to people who play BA - he has a big enough community, he could've quite easily generated dialogue from people experienced with the game. It felt like a missed opportunity. The video was titled 'the big problem with historical wargaming', which is disingenuous. Bolt Action isn't all historical wargames, so the 'BIG PROBLEM' is really limited to a couple of games, in a specific time frame, and it's not much of a problem at all since most folks who play Bolt Action are aware they're playing a game with toy soldiers, and it isn't reality. The whole thing feels like someone who's only been exposed to the 40k community, on places like 4chan, and assumes that all other wargaming communities are the same. The comments about Guy's personal life though, they're super uncalled for. Genuinely a dick move by whichever bellend's think it's relevant Sorry for doom mongering, I try to avoiding shitting on content creator videos Now to actually watch your video, I had to type all this ^ otherwise I would've forgotten haha

[@CTA12356]

Dude sorry it’s super relevant. He doesn’t get to take a moral high ground on anything when he is a scummy pos off camera. He decided to have such a hot take and attack peoples hobby and personal lives, deserves to be called out for his own behaviour

[@crowux]

The Nazis got cool stuff and me playing little figures of them won't change that the ideology is shit and that they lost. There's a difference between tabletop and real life funnily enough.

[@flashyfantail5665]

I am a fan of Guy's channel but one of my issues with his video is says when refering to painting WW2 Germans (paraphrasing slightly) maybe you like it because of the history, maybe you like the Hugo Boss uniforms or maybe just maybe you like it a little too much. This is basically saying, "Hey person I don't know, based on the fact you have painted WW2 Germans and my idea of your reasons why, you probably aren't a Nazi but maybe just maybe you might be." You could argue(I'm not) that 40K is a game aimed at boys with genetically engineered white super soldiers purging the universe of all that is different (aliens etc), with a lack of racial diversity of the figures and the the only women are manic pixie warrior nuns... maybe you are not a white supremacist, maybe you just like the lore, maybe you like the power armour or maybe, just maybe you like it a little too much. Now, of course I am not saying that, I used to work for GW in Nottingham but you can see how that would piss 40k players off.

[@rutgaurxi7314]

He will never be an eight-foot tall space raciest.

[@weatlyjustweatly133]

Except one is real and one is fiction

[@DJRaffa1000]

I, even as a German, always find it cool to see and play the Germans in historical games (at least when it comes to tanks or ships or stuff). The tech itself is just too cool to ignore, altho I can fully understand if people don't want to because of the history behind it.

[@DiviNazuphus]

This is the most sane take I have seen regarding the video so far. Everyone is focusing on the wrong aspect of it. The video is more about the people who feel uncomfortable playing as the bad guys. And it wouldn't even really be playing as them, but more they want to enjoy the game and win and feel like they can't do that properly if they win as the bad guys. Another thing about games like World of Tanks and World of Warships ect is that despite the fact you can use german tanks and stuff, your never a "ww2 german army". You are a mix of random vehicles from various armies on a Team to win a short match. There is a Second degree of separation that doesn't exist in Tabletop historical wargames. Literally no one @ me about this, I don't give a shit about your opinion.

[@vanillaicecream2385]

if you dont want to play the nazis...... dont paint them up as an ss battalion its just that easy

[@Big_Blue_Monkey]

Irony is according to the Wargame Survey there are now more people playing historical wargames than fantasy or Sci-fi. There are rivet counters in all areas of wargaming including the 40K scene. I was told my Blood Angels weren't the correct colour of red. I play German, US, Soviet and Chinese armies for WW2. I don't believe in any political nonsense from any country from that period. I never use to play any of the modern conflicts from the Middle East having served with the military in the Gulf War and Iraq as it was too close for confort. I now play those conflicts as I no longer see that as an issue anymore. My grandfather played WW2 based wargames when I was growing up and he served with the Commandos during the war. He also played both sides of the war. There are bigoted elements in wargaming who are attracted to 40K for the same reasons why those same idiots are attracted to playing Germans in Bolt Action.

[@Solidsnake856]

This is so cap. 40k and battletech dwarf every other game in sales and participation

[@Big_Blue_Monkey]

@@Solidsnake856 Those are just two games, it's the genres as a whole that's being discussed.

[@Solidsnake856]

@@Big_Blue_Monkey yeah but just go to any tabletop convention like gencon. Scifi games absolutely dwarf historical wargames

[@DanielSwindlehurst]

Based. That moment when Mordian popped up in the stream was magic. The look on Mickey's face, I could see his testicles retracting.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Bearing in mind I cut out the part saying ‘mordian this video is shit’ I think you’re projecting about my testicles 😜

[@MordianGlory]

​@Hellstorm Wargaming hahaha 😂

[@DanielSwindlehurst]

@@HellstormWargaming My deepest apologies for projecting about your testicles... again.

[@shadowcaptaincain]

I mean the line of thinking that if you play Nazis in a historical wargame means you sympathize with the atrocities the Nazis committed is dumb. By that logic, if you play the Confederates in a US Civil War wargame, does that automatically mean you support racial injustice and slavery? There were only two sides in that war, so 50% of all people who play US Civil War wargames are going to play the Confederates. You could also further extrapolate that line of thinking to Civil War reenactors. Someone has to play the role of the Confederates, does that mean everyone who does is a closet racist? I'm using the US Civil War as the example here because even though it was over 150 years ago, we are still suffering the effects from it in the US. EDIT: Honestly the reason I don't think they are more popular is do you want to paint a bunch of really tiny guys that look like us? Or super cool, super soliders, from 38,000 years in the future that are bigger than US Quarter?

[@angrykobold5970]

Guy didn't say that though?

[@HellstormWargaming]

No one is saying "if you play Nazis in a historical wargame means you sympathize with the atrocities the Nazis" But what they are saying is there COULD be those who do. I agree, its not everyone - but it feels like it could be a small percentage?

[@shadowcaptaincain]

@@HellstormWargaming Well like a friend of mine pointed there are small number of people who collect Death Korp of Krieg because of how closely they look to German soldiers from that era, and they do it out of idolization. And yes Guy did not say that, it was more a question that he raised. Honestly, I forgot all about the video until I saw your upload so I still don't get why there was this much blowback. He raised a point to get a conversation going, not to cast anyone in a specific light.

[@shadowcaptaincain]

@@angrykobold5970 He didn't say it, he raised it a part of the question he was putting towards the community. The video was essentially "Why are historical war games not as popular?" But instead of exploring multiple reasons, he laser focused in on the Nazi aspect. He could of brought up the incredibly tiny scale of it, or boring rules, or are the armies to boring?

[@freeRadioArmageddon]

Another example take Fallout, identifying as brotherhood of steel is SUS

[@poncenroy]

What I would say about the proximity argument, the hobby exists because of veterans painting WWII, historicals is the market and even the majority of WWII films are full of actors who fought in the war. Auddie Murphy being one. In fact the Actor who played Rommel in the Longest Day spent most of the war imprisioned for being a German who disagreed with the Nazi regime. I think my main problem is he wouldn't even have made this video if money wasn't involved and then after making his points slapped out a sponsorsed add for world of war ships.... a game where you can play as Nazis. He just seem disengenous.

[@greatescapegames]

I have to take issue with your opening objection to historical wargaming. Focusing on a single conflict is obviously rather myopic, but categorising WWII enthusiasts as weirdos is stereotyping. I co-founded a successful historical wargaming company in 2005 as an extension of my personal wargaming life, my professional wargaming life, and my lifelong fascination with history. And why the tunnel vision with one period and one game? It's clear that all the commentators on all these videos would benefit with perhaps taking a balanced take with some historical gamers. There are many, many periods beyond WWII. WWII has been the most popular since, perhaps, the 80's or 90's, but there is literally a huge panorama of historical gaming periods, manufacturers, miniatures, games, etc.

[@bejammin2000]

You know, back in 1890, Toy Soldier clubs had the same problem. Someone had too play Napoleon, afterall.

[@joerobinson88]

It’s a shame we seem to have missed a fairly critical point here…. Has anyone actually encountered someone that is a fascist whilst playing a war game? Literally seems that nobody actually contributed any real experience of that happening? I’ve been wargaming for 20years now and I’m yet to meet a nazi….

[@HellstormWargaming]

“I’ve never met a nazi” is a straw man argument buddy. They don’t usual walk round with a sticker on

[@joerobinson88]

It’s not an argument dude. I’m not being combative. And I don’t think it’s strawman. If we aren’t witnessing people exhibiting undesirable behaviour or expressing hateful opinions whilst wargaming etc how do we know that these people exist? I just think it’s a lot of fuss and discussion over something that I haven’t seen or heard of until now? Obviously happy to be educated if there are gamers out there that have suffered people like this…

[@WozWozEre]

You need to look harder, there was (past tense) two in my local GW circle in the last 12 months alone.

[@joerobinson88]

@@WozWozEre I’m sorry to hear that, it’s a shame to hear there are people like that in the gaming community. Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’ve always lived in London and Kent so always played in clubs in my area and I just haven’t witnessed anyone of the sort. It’s actually one of my favourite things about the hobby in general, that everyone I’ve come across seems to just be there for fun and we all just leave everything else at the door. Thanks for replying and sharing your experience.

[@dannyhalas9408]

@@WozWozEre Mayby guy should do a follow up video on why there are so many real life fasicsts playing 40k?

[@KillTeamHungary]

Agree. As a 40K player, I also experience weirdos painting their space marines trans/LGBTQ colors. Very problematic people. The problem is with Guy and ppl like you, is that you guys are Tourists in the hobby :)

[@HellstormWargaming]

🐕😚

[@HellstormWargaming]

1. Multi award winning tournament player and painter, highly ranked space marine player in the world wide rankings 2. Endorsed by multiple of the largest wargaming companies in the world 3. Plays Warhammer as a full time job 4. Isn’t a bigot You. 1. Bigot. Who’s the tourist sorry?

[@KillTeamHungary]

@@HellstormWargaming all you buddy. Your utterances gave you away. If ppl touching German tanks in BA are n@zis then Guy, his b*tch from whom he left his GF with infant twins for, and you are neo-Marxist champagne socialist, who try to inject the hobby with their sick and harmful ideology which killed over a 100 million ppl around the world. I thank you for making this video, and for making yourself known. Its always nice to have idiots put signs on their necks so ppl can just avoid them.

[@juzzi137]

In 1939 when the soviet army invaded from the east, we were requesting aid from the western powers, from countries such as France and UK. None came. My family members were taken by the soviets and sent into Siberia during WW2. The soviet partisans massacred countless civilians from my country. The only aid we got during WW2 was from Germany, Italy and Japan. So no. Don't try and lecture me about history, because you might not like what the history books uncover.

[@mroreillyb]

You call out mordian or whatever his name is for putting words in guys mouth then immediately insinuate that hes saying people need to tolerate facsist in their gaming groups. like, come on

[@Gumlass1]

Corollary: if you play Americans in Bolt Action, you are ok with nuking civilians.

[@Wingsoficarus9868]

Yes

[@aldraone-mu5yg]

Personally I’d rather have actual fascist and communist play miniature war games rather than be out there organising or whatever.

[@JanitorScruffy]

Some guy on twitter who was basically as close to a Nazi as you can be and not get banned (probably banned by now lol) popped up on my timeline because someone shared his Soviet collection of team Yankee minis and his Slaanesh collection. Didn't even know who he was at the time, just thought his little Russians and naked demon women were well painted.

[@williamroyals3540]

My grandparents are baby boomers and they knew people who fought in World War II. My grandfather loves watching the movies and the documentaries, and when he was a kid and WWII toys and games were very popular. The further away we get I think we are somehow more sensitive to it as a society, not less. Some individuals were definitely traumatized from the war, but many of them do NOT want their efforts to be forgotten. For sure there is an occasional person who "enjoys playing the Nazis too much", but I don't think that's exclusive to the nazis. American and Britain have committed atrocities too, like slavery and imperialism, and I have witnessed people who play them out of their own very of nationalism and not because they were "the good guys". My point is NOT comparing America's slavery or Britain's imperialism to the Nazi's holocaust, my point is, I have personally witnessed white supremacists who would rather play America or Britain because that's what they identify with. Not all ideological Nazis even like Germany. Generalizing people as being nazis because they play the Germans, is ironically, stereotyping. The thing that confuses me the most is people who want to censor, whether that's just removing symbols or getting rid of armies or games completely. The nazis censored what they disagreed with. Censoring WWII perpetuates that same radical behavior. Wouldn't it be better to show off how terrible they were?

[@AllThingsCubey]

This. Mikey acting like some trauma riddled WW2 veteran is going to walk in on my friend group's gaming sessions and we're dickheads for having WW2 Germans on the tabletop because we aren't being considerate of this non-existent possibility... Literally his own words, that "people are now more aware of being considerate to others. It gets called the woke agenda but it's just not being a dickhead." Sorry but what? Playing historicals is done within existing game groups. Nobody is rubbing their WW2 German army in the face of war veterans or Jewish kids, and the vast majority of historical players don't make it political. It's *historical* and a significant part of the appeal is learning about what your models and battles represent from our past. Unless you have serious issues, you can't learn about these topics in detail and not realise who the bad guys are... I just seriously reject the idea that historical wargames are inherently problematic. And yeah, I do agree it's an oversensitivity issue. It is a woke issue, because it's people looking for drama in areas they don't know anything about.

[@forgottnsoldier4598]

My problem with Mikey and Guys takes here is they are taking what feels like a guilty until proven innocent approach to any one that would play as the Axis nation in a table top game.

[@HellstormWargaming]

To use guys words, it wasn’t my intention to ‘tar everyone with the same brush’

[@forgottnsoldier4598]

@@HellstormWargaming Fair enough however that is most definitely the first impression I got from both videos. Intended or not Guy paints historical wargamers with a very broad brush and that’s why people are upset. Every time you and Guy say “I’m not saying everyone is like this BUT….” It comes off as an accusation. I think that’s how a lot of people are feeling about it.

[@Mr_Waffle.]

I saw the original drama but didn't see this video about it until now. Good to see that 10 months later people are still not watching the video and immediately replying angrily in the comments about points that were addressed in the video. Never change, angry knee-jerk youtube commentors

[@AndrewFishman]

You talk of people who were alive during the war. It is not them, nor the 2 generations that followed them that made this problematic. We put swastikas on our Airfix stuka models, we played with toy soldiers from the German or Japanese armies recognising their role in the war, and playing out that war on a table top. Your contention it is about older people getting upset is fallacious, as it is Millenials and zoomers who get upset about nazis, not those who came before them.

[@dekumutant]

Why don't you give credit to the implications midwinter is making when he says certain things? You keep saying "that's not what midwinter said" it's absolutely what he implied, don't pretend you cant see that lol. It makes you seem super disingenuous.

[@ubiquitouspov1060]

This was a nothing burger save for Guy's 'with respect...you watched it wrong' type retort to Mordian which was a bit of a never meet your heroes moment.

[@Gumlass1]

Guy sounded like he was enjoying World of Warships "a bit too much".

[@Tehstampede]

The problem these days is a lot of the people saying "fuck fascism" are themselves fascist.

[@caprawlag5626]

Fascist isn’t the best way to put it because that’s generally on the right wing side of things but they are absolutely dangerous authoritarians.

[@DrumsTheWord]

I've always loved the bad guys. The Imperials in Star Wars for example, based on the Nazi regime, had the smartest uniforms and best equipment. There's something cool about playing the bigger and more oppressing faction. The enemy that your opponent HAS to be beat. I really don't understand how any of these videos blew up as they did. I think some people are just a little too sensitive and want to find the wrong no matter what.

[@Marshallo.o]

I always thought the Empire is Star Wars, was based off of the British Empire. Note predominantly British actors playing the roles? From Far Out magazine: "In short, the Galactic Empire was a riff on expansionist Imperial Britain, with the likes of Grand Moff Tarkin literally being endowed with the voice of the British Empire. Adding to this is that accents are still a vital part of the make-up of British society. This posh pronunciation is key to distinguishing where someone stands in the class system. Even today, received pronunciation is the sound of power in all areas of British culture and is widely heard in politics and the media. Elsewhere, it’s almost a given that bosses of big businesses and banks communicate in received pronunciation. "

[@rockycaroozo]

I think the actual problem is the internet takes other people’s opinions way too personally.

[@ExtradaemonYT]

@@Marshallo.o Lucas said they're based on WW2 Germany and America in Vietnam. The british thing mostly comes from the accents (British accents = bad guys in most films of the time).

[@DrumsTheWord]

@@Marshallo.o You make a very good point. No doubt it was a mixture of the two. But I hope you get my point about playing the "bad" guys.

[@adamb3455]

Given the fact that a neo nazi for real used 40k as a vehicle for his hate at a tournament, I'd say the argument about 40k being fictional making it unproblematic is completely false. Overall, given his personal life, Guy isn't the person I would look to for a morality lesson.

[@MordianGlory]

Amazing video Mikey! Thought you covered everything really well :) Especially like your point about the response being disproportionate, I think Guy is getting a huge amount unnecessary hate at the moment. Keep up the great work ❤

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@redscope897. He clearly didn’t call everyone who plays historicals Nazis - or even every German WWII player Nazis

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@redscope897 no, he didn’t suggest everyone who wants to play Germans is a Nazi - I play German tanks more than any other nation in world of tanks because I like the look of them and how they play - if I played historicals I’d have Germans and Russians. Saying that a tiny minority of players **might** like playing the army for the wrong reasons isn’t ‘suggesting that all German army players are Nazis’ And it’s obvious when he says ‘someone has to play the Nazis’ that he means someone has to play **as** the Nazis - which was a misinformed thing to say since you’d be playing as German army not Nazis, but the German army did serve the Nazis and have Nazis in it at the time. He also gave multiple reasons why people would play as the Germans, which weren’t ‘because the player likes the Nazis’

[@Josco83]

@@HistoritorJimaldus It's disingenuous to say he called everyone who plays historicals N@zis, true. But it's also disingenuous to say he was just saying "N@zis bad" as Mikey did. Let's not pretend "I'm not saying, I'm just saying" and "just asking the question" isn't what cowards do to cover their backsides when they say something they know they may need to walk back. Guy knew what he was doing. Laser focusing on the alleged likelihood of Axis players being awful people instead of having a serious discussion about historicals was low-effort and just clickfarming nonsense...to say nothing of missing a great video opportunity. It's terrible for the hobby, and a gross take.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@redscope897 he meant play as the Nazis, not play against a player who is a Nazi - you understand that right? Also it’s Hattie not penny... and you misquoted slightly

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@Josco83 from what I remember the video was mostly about why some players might not want to play as the Nazis, not really about players who do (I’d play as the Germans without being bothered, but not all players feel the same way as me)

[@The_skeleton_king]

Idk I feel like historical war games aren't popular because they're too niche. I feel most people are historical buff if they play that. But also I feel the reason a lot of people got offended was because people are tired of getting called a nazi or fascists (people hate being called nazis who would of thought) when they just like war games or historical stuff and the way he framed it gave that vibe even tho that wasnt the intent.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Totally legit thought. Probably comes down to that, but there may be other reasons. Thanks for watching :)

[@NIRDIAN1]

Not just niche, but also very splintered. Warhammer has 3 different games? Maybe 5 tops? Historical wargaming is like... well "Pick a war!" And we've done a bunch of those! I also doubt the historical nerdery that attracts people to the genre will have them setting up their Mongolian Horde against Napoleon's army? So it's self-limiting in that sense. Also on the subject of "Nasty Folk In My Tabletop", I bet there are way more people with harmful ideologies playing Space Marines than there are playing the Wehrmacht of the 1940s...

[@hobbithubby5076]

Yeah, it’s niche and ordinary compared to fantasy or Sci Fi games. This was something that Guy never brought up in his video. He just hammers the Nazi element over and over, like it was the only reason people would have for not playing Bolt Action.

[@Docktavion]

@@redscope897 a prime example of a computer game franchise Total war, they do both “historicals” and “fantastical” the fantasy always outperforms the historical.

[@Docktavion]

I’m on your side of playing a certain “faction” doesn’t mean you have to identify as that faction. My example was of the reason why certain games out perform others. In this case TW have a massive catalog of historical games but the fantasy ones out perform each time. The point being the races and wars are “old” and yet the majority of people still want the escapism of fantasy. On regards to the other side of games like GTA etc. They both cater to vastly different audiences and tastes then the historical/war games scenes. The FPS is far closer to GTA then a historical/wargame (RTS type games etc.)

[@BMGrayFox1991]

I used to play historical in my teens (mostly Roman/WWII), mainly down to what was played at local wargames clubs, and didn't really put a second thought into it. I'd happily play the Axis because I thought that their vehicles looked cooler, and there wasn't much deeper thought than that. Not that different to how I find modern Russian fighter planes as some of the most interesting, does not mean I support their current political actions. It is odder now that I know that Nazi idiologies didn't end at the end of the war, but I still don't have a massive issue with it, just the same when videogames cover conflicts in parallel to even more modern wars. I can see that there is a chance that the hobbying historical Nazis may draw more people who are that way inclined, but we have seen how 40K does not escape the same wierdos, but it didn't change my opinion on 40k. As for why Warhammer is more sucessful. Historical has a VERY limited creative output, it comes with instructions to paint by numbers. The reason that SM (and most the other races) are so popular, is that to some degree they can be treated like a blank canvas for you to place over whatever lore/colours etc that you want.

[@johnbruce4004]

Few years ago there was an issue at an OFFICIAL 40K event in Spain, when members of one team turned up with Spanish Fascist party pin badges and people who refused to play them were disqualified. Not all 40K players are like that, same for historical games, which extend far beyond 1939.

[@johnbruce4004]

@@logan-9900 Sorry, to whom are you referring. The pin-wearers or didn't players

[@theycallmepiccolo9985]

"Video games are okay because they aren't real" the table top isn't eaither a video game is fantasy violence with a WW2 coat over it so is table top. "Historicals (WW2) are all fun until someone (has to) plays the na*is" World of Warships is all fun until someone plays as the bismarch.

[@Boris945471]

I work with tracked vehicles and heavy mining equipment and nerd out with the engineering. Bovington Tank museum is one of my favourite places to visit. Tanks of the Nazis where mechanical engineering marvels and are really interesting, especially how ahead of there time they where The V2 rocket was a marvel of then modern engineering and science I feel I can appreciate there engineering, craftsmanship and science behind them and the work by those scientists and engineers BUT know that they come from a place driven by a deep hate. War is awful, truly mankind's most depraved and terrible act. I'm unsure what I think of the issue with historical wargaiming... In the end people have freedom to do what they want, but that comes with the responsibility to protect others. If I ran a club, I would look for solutions like historical games night which I would encourage people to look at the history behind the game. Invite historians or veteran groups to talk... Barnes Wallace invented the bouncing bomb, an idea that had never be tried and a amazing technical engineering feat. He also hated what he had done after there use and the death of hundred of civils at the hands of the allies... War is the only game in which both sides lose

[@HellstormWargaming]

People are free to do what they want, I agree! As long as people are aware, thats the main thing? and "Invite historians or veteran groups to talk" sounds awesome! That way people can learn from the right people, and then go on to enjoy it!

[@anonymoose7412]

Wow that was almost a poetic response

[@nordicmaelstrom4714]

The situation is thus: Guy opened his mouth out of extreme ignorance. You can't run around calling people Nazi's because they collect/paint/play ww2 German's and not expect to have your head ripped off and rightly so. You start tossing that kind of bull crap around you deserve any and all flak sent your way. Historical wargamers play historical games because we genuinely love history. We love the research into the historical periods we game in. Yes historical wargamers are sticklers for accuracy because you are depicting a real thing that has real uniforms or appearances that need to be represented. If you don't want to do that stick with 40k etc history isn't your thing and that is fine. You all need to stop bringing politics and agendas into wargaming. I also find it asinine that someone who cheated on their spouse and then left their family without means of support is trying to take the moral high ground in any discussion. Before anyone jumps down my throat about that last part this is something I would say directly to his face. I deem what he did to be extremely dishonorable and quite frankly individuals like that are worthless in my eyes. I don't take kindly to being called a Nazi and I sure as h*ll do not take kindly to being called anything by a disgrace of a man like Guy.

[@Krashwire]

Almost my entire family is Jewish. I lost many relatives to nazi germany. I have a deep and multi-generational hatred of nazis. I have to say this 'controversy' is just silly and making mountains out of molehills. There is no problem with playing as the bad guys in a game, just as there is no problem if someone doesn't want to be the bad guys. This is just a stupid argument over a video that raised some interesting questions. The only drama isn't the MidWinter Minis video, its all the BS that has followed.

[@notaninquisitor7274]

building, painting, and playing models for a game is fine. If the player's interest in the baddies goes outside of the game it starts to get weird. The red flags are raised when players REALLY think positively about the baddies outside of the game.

[@NIRDIAN1]

Enclave and Empire Fanboys are... unpleasant to be around as someone who has some marginalized identities.

[@Sonof_DRN2004]

@@NIRDIAN1 marginalised identities? Plural? You have a split personality or something?

[@matthewsmith2979]

I've known WWII vets that have played as Germans. There are also modern military wargames that are played by Vets. The "living memory" thing is crap. The problem is that people lack the maturity to seperate reality from the game.

[@chester1882]

Oh i thought the title was "The Midwinter Minis Diorama is Terrible" in regards to the Warlord Titan he finished recently and im like wat?

[@Hanschen994]

The world of warships thing was just way to hypocritical (might not be the best word here but kinda accurate) and pushed an already controversial video way past being a fair discussion.

[@scoller]

I think in general we obsess over/assume other people's politics/intentions far too often. just roll your dice and mind your business. if someones being a twat IRL then address it at the time and go about your day like a grown up. my hobby downtime isnt the time or place for anyone else's options on world politics, and the person who crosses that line regardless of thier political affiliation is the one in the wrong IMO

[@kurthasedd7923]

I think MWM's take is just garbage. Yes, absolutely national socialists are bad, like, VERY BAD. But it's that he's implying in his video that if you decide to play them, you're now one of these people. Absolute bs on that, I've met more people who emulate their chosen 40k faction more than historical wargamers representing they who shan't be named. Now war in general to no one's surprise is bad and I absolutely love those souls who detest it, be it fictional or real, God bless their souls. However, don't go ahead and say "I want to play a faction that practices ethnic cleansings/eating people/sexual depravity without discrimination/literal facists etc." Both Bolt Action and 40k are fictionalized games at the end of the day, one is more based in the realms of reality than the other. If your opponent is a little too into Volkswagens and Hugo Boss, no one's going to stop you from not playing them, but if you want to make judgements on someone's character based on that, than the character of all warhammer 40000 wargamers are now thrown into question. AoS escapes this time umblemished, damn you AoS for being the morally superior wargame, I'll knock you down a peg or two eventually!

[@dragonfish123]

love ya mikey. that said, your response just seems like tubers closing ranks. between this and other revelations about guy's life showing why it's not great for him to virtue signal is going to leave people who defended his bad faith take looking silly.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

I mean he's always been like this though and he's not bad his point is valid like as I kid I only wanted to play the factions I wanted to in video games.... But know after the invention of the matchmaker it really does not matter.... Also this is TT games you don't have to play the nazis.

[@HellstormWargaming]

I'm not talking about Guy's personal life, cause thats personal and his :P I'm just talking about the video in question :)

[@NIRDIAN1]

Bruv's really saying "virtue signal" unironically in 2023... :/

[@Vin_Venture896]

It’s true. All Warhammer youtubers know each other. When Midwinter posted this video he screamed ‘TORTUGA FORMATION’ and Hattie, Louise, Hellstorm, Miniac, Ninjon, Dana Howl, Painting Phase, and the rest of them all met in person and formed a human shield line to protect him. Trust me I saw it all in person myself. I was one of the shields.

[@NIRDIAN1]

​@@Vin_Venture896 Aw Discourse Minis and Pleasant Kenobi weren't even invited? :(

[@lukeharris0071]

I actively play Bolt Action and I believe it has the best game system out there. My mate actively went for the Germans and painted them accurately just for historical reasons, nothing I'll intended. Definitely doesn't help that the Germans have the largest model range out of all armies. Bell ends are the issue, throw them in the bin.

[@IDHC_CBSickles]

@hellstorm wargaming i get you don't want to step on anyone's toes but come on guy was gas lighting from the first sentence

[@RowdiesFan1]

I've watched Mid's vid and I gotta say... without a shred of factual data aside from maybe trends in overall industry sales, I still don't know the actual point he was trying to make there. - Signed someone who collects historicals from New Kingdom Egyptians to present day Ukraine.

[@insomniacbritgaming1632]

yes we know Nazi's bad, however comparing the actual Nazi's to tabletop wargamers is where the issue comes from!! Nobody in WW2 was good.

[@turfdorbrittlebeard1674]

Is there ever a good side in a war?

[@roymartin8507]

You could easily argue that there are no 'good' sides - if carefully looked at & with modern sensibilities (god forbid, that anyone should try that old chestnut) all nations could be seen as having done evil deeds.

[@reggytipp3123]

The Midwinter video was definitely badly framed and felt badly researched. I think people who play historicals (well not historical just WW2) are probably aware of the issue of how it’s perceived by some and it’s disappointing to see a creators first video on the subject seemingly lead with accusations (and a need for difficult conversations) rather than being a bit more engaging with it, hence the knee jerk reaction from fans. Especially when the video is a plug for world of warships.

[@SC1ENCEP1E]

It just makes me think of the Bo Burnham line "The world needs direction... From a white guy like me."

[@mungojones]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 smashed it

[@TheDeadGunslinger]

Did everyone forget.. IT'S A GAME!! It's not real. Yes, those people did some bad things back then, but just playing that army on the tabletop isn't "glorifying" them or whatever.

[@pinussylvestris2377]

Come on dude. You should really rethink your position here. "Those people" did not just "did some bad things". The germans systematically murdered and tortured millions of people. Of course there must be a critical conversation about historical wargames. For it to be "just a game", it's way too close to reality and recent history.

[@TheDeadGunslinger]

@@pinussylvestris2377 I was trying to avoid using more detailed language, but it doesn't matter. It's still A GAME. Period. Nothing that happens on the table top actually represents anything that happened in real life. Also, it was almost 100 years ago, that's not "recent history". We've had MULTIPLE wars since then. 1890 wasn't "recent history" in the year 1990. If you played a Tabletop Game set in the Moorish Invasion of Turkey, you wouldn't say "please don't make me paint the moores!" Despite the fact that they killed and enslaved more people than the Nazis ever did. Games are games. Period. If you can't discern fantasy from reality, you might need to go to a mental health facility.

[@pinussylvestris2377]

@@TheDeadGunslinger there is a lot to unpack here. Firstly, it really feels like you are very triggered by people making some valid criticism towards a historical wargame and it's community. Why do you feel the need to defend historical wargames? Secondly, your arguments are not very compelling. You are stating that hundred years is a long time and we should move on. That's a statement, which is tremendously offensive towards victims of the nazi regime. Survivors of the holocaust are alive up to day and families still traumatized by the war and the crimes committed by germany. I guess you are not from Europe. Otherwise you would have known about the fact that the atrocities committed by germany during the nazi regime and the second world war are burnt into our memories. We will never forget. Consequently, if one is playing with nazi battle tanks in any game, one must critically reflect about ones doings, because it's not just a game, when recent history and it's effects on todays societies are involved. Then you go on and compare the nazi regime to other regimes. With this you are diverting the attention away from the main topic. The main topic is about nazi battle tanks in wargames. So please stick to this.

[@smugwendigo5123]

The problem I think too is that neo nazis love glorifying nazis neo nazis love pretending to be nazis, let's say a bolt action style gets made who wants to play as IS is?

[@batteredwarrior]

Not all Germans were Nazis... And if someone is playing as Waffen SS? Well, it's an historical force in an historical wargame. What a non-issue.

[@kyleroberts3439]

i think the issue with guys video is that, yes its a great question "why dont more people play hostoricals" but he spent 10 minutes only stating one view, and that was the fascist angle. Theres loads of reasons why people dont, GW's monopoly of the market and there marketing is too great for other companies to compete with. Or that its difficult to get an intro game into historicals but easy with GW. The video feels like Guy has no understanding of Historical (not saying he doesnt, as I dont know him, it just comes across that way), then did no research and went Im going to take the Fascist angle, it was only going to end bad. Also when saying 0.1% of people may have those views, a certain tournament in spain last year also shows the same issue lies in 40k as well

[@jamesalbright7581]

Finding players in America to play the British in American Revolution isn’t easy!🇺🇸

[@electronicrat3836]

I like playing Germany because they specialize in tanks, and as a guard player I love tanks. I’m playing Germany, not “the nazis”. There’s no political aspect of the actual game. Germany had the most advanced tanks, they look cool because tanks are cool. I don’t paint a swastika on every hull & sleeve. Spread peace and love everyone.

[@roboosian]

Nobody cares if you personally dont want to play as the "baddies", they care that Guy has put the idea out there that if your opponent is playing the Germans that it might be because theyre secret nazis. You can say that warhammer is different because its fictional but we literally had a recent controversy where a guard player in a tournament was a nazi. Nazis can ve anywhere, they can be involved in any hobby so why even mention it as a downside when you could easily run into a nazi at warhammer, magic the gathering, golf, swimming etc. Guys video reinforced the idea that nazis are more prevalent in the historical wargaming scene and provided no data tk support this. Ultimately his video painted the scene in a negative light and now anyone who was interested in playing as the germans will be put off out of fear of being labelled a nazi.

[@johnbattyll6874]

What happens when people get into Warhammer? They collect an army and play the game, then want to find out more about the setting. So read books on the lore. With WWII games gamers collect the army that sparkes an interest. They build paint and play the game and then they go and find the stories that relate to the battles they refight. Its a hook to go find out more about real events and it can help educate people on the sacifices made to fight against such abhorrent ideaologies. I think at the end of the day there is extremists in Warhammer as well who really idolise the Imperium or T'au or Stormcast or Lumineth or Choas. What happens in that instance? We as a hobby community rally against it. I am sure that is what happens in historicals, as well. After all historicals and warhammer are apart of the same hobby.... the same community... wargaming. For me Guy's video was niave and poorly scripted. It left me with the impression that playing historicals was something only those who have no problem with associating with Nazis. Also surprised that no mention of the Soviet Union who alone killed more people than the Nazis. Or the civillian casualtied caused by the Allies bombing campagins in Occupied Europe and the Pacific, specifically the only two instances of a nuclear weapon being used by the US against Japan and the significant civillian casualties incurred. It just seemed so out of balance. The problem with hiding or airbrushing the swastika and other symbols of hate from history and society's collective memory stops people from learning how to spot them and how to defeat the arguements they peddle. So that they do not pose a threat.

[@nordicmaelstrom4714]

Those arguments were not made because the people making these videos are speaking from a position of extreme ignorance on history.

[@DJRockford83]

I think if Guy had kept his head down and just made videos about the hobby, instead of inserting an ill informed political virtue signal, then there wouldn't have been a backlash and scrutiny of his character. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

[@siremilcrane]

The thing that annoys me about it is not what he said, or the WOWS promo (I do not begrudge anyone trying to earn a living) but the fact that that is his first video on Bolt Action or Historical wargaming of any kind. I just don't think its a good way to start off your relationship with a community. Like sure its a conversation we can have but maybe show off some minis or talk about the game first. It comes across as a little disrespectful to the fans to immediately jump into a discussion about the morality of playing their game EDIT: To be clear I am not accursing anyone of hobby tourism, but MWM is a youtuber with over 300k subscribers. For a lot of them this is their first exposure to Bolt Action and historical wargaming as a whole and this is how he choses to introduce it?

[@the98themperoroftheholybri33]

I have Polish family who were killed by both the Soviet Union and Nazis, please do not be offended or shocked on their behalf over some plastic toys with symbols on them. Part of historical wargaming is the accuracy side of them, if you begin changing things to suit modern attitudes then whats the point? Another part is recreating battles and situations which really happened, which draws attention to them, so to change that is both insulting to future generations and the generation that lived through those times. Midwinter's problem wasn't "nazis are bad", his problem were having nazis in a wargame at all, which is a level of censorship not seen since Stalin

[@reform-revolution]

He didnt say he wanted them banned or removed he said no one likes to play them .....

[@the98themperoroftheholybri33]

@@reform-revolution he said it's problematic, and when people like that say that, it means it ought to be removed entirely.

[@reform-revolution]

you said you were Polish and that means you eat babies right? @@the98themperoroftheholybri33

[@welshminipainter]

Guys thumbnail I equally bad, as if ww2 is the only historicals wargaming era. Clickbait isn't the only way on YT. There is a higher way.

[@BBQRebs]

It just wasnt very well thought out. If i bought a roman inspired model to paint i would link it to the fact that they genoiceded germanic tribes and enslaved people to fight in gladiator pits. But gladiators and roman centurions are cool af. Imagine painting a mongol warrior and someone saying oh you must be a rapist. Its really simple to me. Historical is harder to sell than space soldiers. I dont think the wargaming fascist scene is as dangerous to society as we may think 😂

[@warcraftdude13]

Midwinter is the worst before the drama.

[@yellowbellytabletop]

I think Guys video was badly executed. He praised Bolt Action for just over 2 minutes, roughly the same amount of time allocated to his sponsor segment. In addition his argument is unhelpful, in that, if he thinks WW2 gaming is unpopular as no-one wants to play axis forces then he proposes no solution that I could see. Maybe I am missing something but I feel he didn't contribute anything (apart from the model painting) to the discussion. At one point he makes a defence of players who may choose to play the German armies of WW2 by saying they might enjoy fielding some of the most powerful armoured vehicles of the period etc. but because he ended this segment with the 'might be into it too much' remark it skewed the framing of the whole segment and did make it seem very much a 'so just be careful' cautionary tale than a spirited defence of gaming in WW2. On a more basic level I disagree with his whole emphasis on naziphobia being something that keeps people away from historical wargames. If this was true why aren't Napoleonics more popular? Gamers eschew historical gaming for far simpler reasons most of the time, I'm sure.

[@Shelldrakeaus]

I feel like if you say, "OH, please don't make me be the notsees" then you shouldn't be playing at all, as you're reading into it way too far. People have no drama playing as killers or warriors of the real world in video games. I played flames of war but refused to play at any clubs coz here in Australia, it's only the crusty old dudes that play historicals.

[@noblegalifreyan4551]

I hope you giys have the same energy when you play ww2 video games.

[@merlin4084]

The problem with the video isnt so much that he didnt have some good points. The problem is that discussing these in his first video about Bolt Action, he has immediately soured the well and put it into the minds of people who may have wanted to try Bolt Action or any Historical Wargame that they may actually be playing against actual Nazis and that the scene is more toxically sinister than it actually ever would be. Why would you ever bother to start into a new game if you are primed to believe that that one guy who plays the Germans might not have just wanted to play them because they thought their vehicles looked cool, but instead might secretly be a Nazi reliving his/her darkest fantasies. The problem with his logic is that WW2 isnt the only historical time period you can wargame and absolutely no one in history can ever be considered a good guy. The British at any time from the Acts of Union onward. Do I even need to go into their hisotrical crimes? Napoleon Bonaparte was a monster, but he was a military and administrative genius and the latter are what anyone focuses on. He committed lots of crimes against humanity in his rise to power. The American Civil War, one faction were literal slave holders, but you cant wargame that period without them. The Romans. There are so many atrosities it would be hard to write them all down. No point of history is clean. The wargaming hobby may as well have never existed in the first place if clean history was the only history you could wargame. I was watching another video where someone met a British Veteran at a wargaming event, where they were replaying the Battle of Arnhem. This veteran was at Arnhem and when asked what he thought about these nerds replaying the battle he actually fought in, his response was "as long as it teaches the next generations to never repeat those events again, then I'm fine with it" People have been wargaming WW2 since WW2 ended (which includes the men who fought in that war). They never had a problem with playing the Germans and we shouldnt be worried about it either. Additionally, not once does he give any positives to historical wargames to even try to and make it appealing to anyone on the fence.

[@scrubsrc4084]

It was an utterly dumb and possibly click bait take. I do notice that idiots always imply theres a facism problem in warhammer yet ive never met one in the hobby. I have however met lots of marxists and seem them calling for violence on their hobby pages.

[@HellstormWargaming]

It's not common to shout about being a fascist, they tend to hide it or not realise.

[@scrubsrc4084]

@@HellstormWargaming so why is it an issue if they are in the hobby if they don't get political unlike the communits who are the same turds, differnt coloured sprinkles. gw did say Warhammer is for everyone

[@angrykobold5970]

"Well IVE never seen any nazis but look at this different thing I've seen"

[@NIRDIAN1]

​@@angrykobold5970 Yeah pretty much this. If you're not black/gay/femme/jewish or don't have close friends who are... You're not gonna notice that shit, you're not gonna be the target of the hatred towards those marginalized groups and you're not gonna be wired to recognise people that may mean you harm before they can do so (this is what dogwhistles are, innocuous phrases and symbols that only targets of hate are attuned to as they're meant as kind of "secret code" between people who share hateful ideology).

[@scrubsrc4084]

@@angrykobold5970 you know thats a disingenuous response. are there any 40k nazi sub reddits? Are there any fashhammer 40k pages?

[@Ridgecraft]

I don't think bolt action isn't popular because it is based on a real life event, I mean you could play as Germans in battlefield V and other video games that are/where massively popular and nobody had an issue with playing as a German. I think the video has been made to get clicks and make money. It's not the first video he's made to get views

[@HellstormWargaming]

I mean, lets speak bluntly - most videos are made to get views. I don't think his take was wildly out there though :)

[@klavakkhazga3996]

Historical videogame shooters are also a lot less popular than fantasy ones. Battlefield went to shit lately anyway, but look at the sales of the call of duty series for example

[@garethsteel2893]

I just started playing bolt action recently and I choose the Germans mainly because there started set seemed like the best value and they have cool tanks. I’ve been gaming a long time and only ever played fantasy games. Going into historical ww2 I have felt strange after all it is recreated horrific events and although I enjoy the game I still feel a little odd playing it. But I’ve learnt a lot about history and the tactics and it really makes me appreciate and respect the soldiers and the civilians that lived through and died during the conflict not that I didn’t before a lot more listening to stories of veterans is really eye opening . I’m going to continue to play bolt action even though internally I still feel a the conflict of maybe seeming disrespectful to those that fell. And I think maybe this is why historical gaming maybe isn’t as popular it’s getting past the barrier if this seems morally wrong. I think midwinters video could have been scripted much better and I also think mordians video brings up good points. I think been an adult seeing both sides and meeting in the middle is where I’m at with this debate, at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter what KZbinrs/influencers say people will make there own minds up. As long as people are having fun and making friends and interacting with each other it’s all good.

[@bulfcrog]

Fuck things constantly being problematic, you can respect German engineering skill without aligning with their views. These things did exist so just face it! Think my grandad had flashbacks every time I played with my toy soldiers? It's nonsense

[@EricDeKirkwood99]

His take wasnt nazis bad his take was "Are people who play as nazis bad? Idk. Im just asking the big questions here." Which is just stupid. Also lets not forget japans warcrimes or even allied warcrimes.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

I mean in video games WW2 once took over the industry and it's not like that with Historicals as you can play in other eras... Also You can just Play US verous US if you want and make it wargames set in 1946 instead with red and blue tanks. Like this point is fine but who forced you to play the nazis? Like who forced you to play choas who are far worse politically then any German army inftry and tank? You know if playing a faction in a game meant you belived in their values 100%.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Which is exactly the points I made, Nobody is forcing anyone, and just because someone plays something doesnt mean they agree with it. But there are those who play them because of that.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@HellstormWargaming Ah ok thanks for the reply! Which also to add generally historicals have tame models compared to even modern 40k which is marketed to young teens like what's worse for a kid to see a Tiger Tank which is banned is some continues because it's that much of a nazi symbol or a 40K demon that would get a video game rated M for mature?

[@FigitTheDigit]

I think, if it's true, there is a factor of miniature wargaming being about escapism.... and WW2 or newer eras are much harder to be "escapist" about? Not alone, but, that's my take on it

[@darrenthurman]

A surprising number of the response videos reference Guy's home life, which leads me to wonder how much of the heat is not actually about N@tzies.

[@HellstormWargaming]

Lots of parasocials in the comments tbh

[@definitelynotcainan3353]

I play Bolt Action because history interests me and quite frankly, I think the game mechanics are far better than Warhammer. Also, historicals aren't subject to the GW tax. Dont like what Warlord games has put out? No problem... check out Perrys, Empress, North Star, Wargames Atlantic, Victrix or any number of other manufacturers and get what YOU want and pay FAR LESS than what GW charges. I have German and Japanese Armies not because I like war crimes and mass murder but because I need opposing forces for my allied armies. And another thing... who the hell do you think the Kreig are based on? It's no secret that one of the most common Kreig proxies are in fact Wargames Atlantic WW1 trench GERMANS! Also, Guy has absolutely NO mandate whatsoever to preach about morals.. this coming from a guy who shagged the hired help while his missus was home tending to his newborn twins. Nah, that guy can go screw himself.

[@kainoctis7724]

Not all germans were nazis, SS there was no doubt.

[@GamaniacMike14]

There’s also video and picture of ww1 and 2 vs the ancient Roman wars, all there is is scripture and art. Like these wars in the past 100 years were really a thing, very real, and it’s all all over the internet too, so I think it takes that living memory further

[@diplomaster]

The main reason why historicals aren't as popular is people majority people will think its just for old men and it looks uncool, main reason why you'll see people aged 45+ playing historicals is because of movies when they were growing up and being able to play a bridge too far on a tabletop is cool or waterloo. Its what you'll mostly see at wargame shows is those older people playing historicals than anything. Same reason why 40k is more popular with younger people is because of movies, games and the availability of it.

[@nordicmaelstrom4714]

The main reason historical wargaming is not "popular" as you all seem to put it is because it encompasses the dawn of human civilization to the modern day. There are thousands upon thousands of historical games out there that anyone can pick up and play. A lot of historical games are not meant for tournament play and a lot of historical gamers don't care to play games like 40k etc because of that very reason. Do not confuse people wanting to play tournaments with being popular because if you take 40k away and throw out another rule set using science fiction miniatures that is geared at tournament play it will take off just like the few historical games that are geared for tournaments are popular.

[@roymartin8507]

A primary reason that fantasy is more popular is simply due to the exclusive GW stores, while there are no such ones for historicals due to the breadth of periods & multitude of suppliers.

[@philgee486]

I've loved playing historical wargames When I painted and played played 15mm romans did I ever think "Yay fascists! We've taken over the world!" When I played spartans did I think "I just love killing the racially inferior and then I'll enslave the survivors!!" How many folks have played a field army with a historical record of siege victory followed by days of sacking a city and rape? How many do you think had the least consciousness of that as the rolled the dice and brought up the ram? Is it really so much better to play someones who an author or game designer made up specifically to be a monster, a big booted exterminating ruthless fascist supersoldier for instance??? Specifically to be played or roleplayed for fun? When these concepts are integral yes it's better that it never actually happened, every violent death that doesn't actually happen is a good thing, but does that then simply make it good to pretend? Judge Dread is a fascist monster, should I be rooting for the murdering looting perps, maybe just not the cannibal ones?? I love the Fallout setting and so does my son, if he loses a survivor to my supermutants is he sickened by the horrors of them eating Bob or Annie? Did I watch The Dambusters to enjoy the drowning of Germans? What about the slave workers from those factories? What was my thinking there as I dah-da-da-dah-da-da-da-dah'd along Is a movie better than a wargame? Yes it is, key point here, yes it is so long as it keeps what happened in our minds so we genuinely reject the aims and actualities of war for the future in a way that wargaming never will because in wargaming a kill is a good thing. getting kill or wound just doesn't cost you any humanity at all, it's a success. That's the acid test of whether playing a given model is a moral issue. Are you playing any of the moral identity of the army or just the game, just the lovely tanks? I played germans for the Hanomag SDKFZ 251 and all it's lovely, lovely looking variants, and I played late war germans for the Panther, it's that simple. As I put those decal crosses on I never once thought there's my celebration of the might of the 1944 fatherland. Not the remotest trace. I think I'm clean, and I don't think painting a dozen shermans has made me a better person either. I don't fly my spit and string biplanes against the evil hun to save England, I do it to play a hilarious game with my friend, to laugh and drink tea and eat cake and to cheer as my dice betray me horribly and still not one good man dead, nor a bad one when they come up either. It's a game And whilst guy's vid wasn't perfect it was the subject that's the problem and not Guy, and it was courage to speak about it based on Hatty's feelings. I did once see a tournament game against a sick freak who only ever played SS regiments raised in the Balkans and who turned up wearing a real cap and a fake iron cross. His moral problems showed in his wargaming rather than arising from it and he's one in forty-three years of gaming. I did feel something that I've never felt before or since and I can tell you it's the same feeling you get when you come across racist scumbags sitting around a table in a pub, you don't blame beer.

[@edwardhann]

Sure someone else has said this but historical war games remind me of that episode of Peep Show, where Mark’s new best friend is a bit too into reenactment as a Nazi.

[@MordianGlory]

"Your not supposed to do that Darryl, you know your not supposed to do that" 😂

[@kissmywhip]

@@MordianGlory It's the way Darryl satutes and the way that Mark waves that gets me 🤣

[@dungeonsanddiscourse]

@@MordianGlory you mean germany for the germans right