Tier Ranking the BEST and WORST Miniature Wargames!

[@biostem]

One of the designers of Malifaux 2nd here. So fun to hear that you love it so much.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Nice! Loved second edition, my man! Malifaux has so many unique and creative mechanics behind it that even if a person doesn't like it, they have to acknowledge that!

[@planetsmashergames]

@biostem - you guys killed it with second edition! We talk about it all the time on our 'Rule of Carnage' miniatures game design podcast, because as a game designer I'm still learning things from your game a decade later. Thank you!

[@triplea657aaa]

40k players don't hate 40k. They hate the company that makes it because they charge $50 for a single bloody infantry character model. I got into 40k this year and 40k is amazing, but you really need to find an army you like and a 3D printer is a big help.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'm sending the GW Gestapo to your house right now to steal your printer! I do the same with MCP . . . don't tell Atomic Games!

[@ScooterinAB]

And because they release errata for a $70 book before that book hits the shelf, then change the game just enough a few years later to keep the train going. The fact of the matter is that the game isn't stable. Entire editions have gone by between games I've played because I simply can't be bothered to bust apart all of my models so I can make them rules legal yet again.

[@jimmierustler5607]

So play an old edition?

[@CTimmerman]

@@ScooterinAB I'm playing my 2nd edition Firstborn with 25 to 35mm base adaptor rings.

[@RiceLegacy]

Check out one page rules. Similar elements to warhammer. But way more simple and agnostic

[@christracey5813]

As someone who plays both BattleTech and Blood Bowl, I find it ironic that you criticize randomness and checking tables every 5 minutes in blood bowl and give it a D, but you give BattleTech (a literal game of tables within tables) an A rating. They're both good games, but it's an odd inconsistency when there is a hell of a lot more randomness in what happens to a mech in combat compared to a Blood Bowl player during a game

[@TabletopTurtle]

Nostalgia, esthetics, and miniatures.

[@Haddedam]

Battletech tables are rather easy and modular rules mean you can ignore most of them. After playing bunch of hex and counter wargames, BT tables are pretty elegant. And yes, I still wish there was a ruleset between alpha strike and the game whose abbreviation is aptly CBT.

[@supachigga]

Yeah, I noticed that too. They both deserve a D for gameplay IMO

[@TheRealRedAce]

That's because Battle Tech is an A and Blood bowl is a D.

[@Kandiell]

he also goes "i like some chaos" then goes "cant handle the random chaotic bullshit of this one" later on. I dont mind though, this is clearly a preference tierlist, not an objective one, thought it was fun.

[@michaelambrose1]

The 'new' Kill Team is completely different. The old Kill Team you know felt like it had clunky rules that tried to be a little original, but still just felt like a slow paced 40k lite. The new KT is a dream to play. As a Malifaux player, it's tough to choose which I prefer.. it's that good.

[@amsfountain8792]

How does Warcry commpare to Kill team? I am on the fence wich one to buy.

[@11AleZZ]

I prefer KT 2018, the rules were not good but the personalisation was great, in the new KT personalisation it's very limited, that for a skirmish game it's a killer, also the balance like all GW games is a problem, some faction are trash and other are OP

[@ruas4721]

Old kill team was much more fun, even with its problems. The new killteam lost so many cool things about warband creation and also some rules are very weird. The balancing is in both versions a nightmare.

[@ruas4721]

@@amsfountain8792 Warcry is a terrible game, dont know how it got such a good ranking in this guys tier list. Kill team is way better, but there are much better skirmish games than both of them, they are low tier games with high prices and bad rules.

[@dratesdragetes777]

@@amsfountain8792 warcry is fun, the only issue I had with it was the token managment. I personally just did not care for killteam at all when I tried playing 5 games of it earlier this year however, its a better game than 40k tenth edition, but it still has some questionable game design.

[@VelcroSnake93]

I do actually love Blood Bowl, but I completely understand why people don't like it. I like it because it's not balanced, and it's actually more about risk mitigation than anything else. And building your team over time is a BIG part of the game.

[@TabletopTurtle]

That's fair and I get that. I just wished the silliness was somehow more intertwined with the mechanics beyond just a roll and a chart.

[@LeBonNauth]

I really don't get what made you put that game this low. It is a specialist game but it's actually quite balanced, more so than other flagship games. Also the community is probably one of the best there is and I've never played a tournament that filled me with fun and joy more than blood bowl. I guess it takes a few games to understand why this game is so interesting

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@LeBonNauth No, I don't think everyone will enjoy Blood Bowl by just playing more Blood Bowl. I could play it another 5 or 6 times and would still end up not enjoying it for the reasons I stated. I'm sure the community is great, though.

[@silentfrog]

If people find Blood Bowl too random, it is because they are rolling dice too much. It is similar to when people say they don't like high lethality games because their models die before they get a chance to do anything cool. They are dying because you put them in that position. Same with Blood Bowl.

[@edwardlasso3092]

Have you tried out "Battletech: Alpha Strike"? It is basically an alternate set of rules that simplifies the record sheets into playing-card-sized cards (less logistics), and also simplifies the movement rules (uses measured distances - no need for hexes for moving or for determining ranges). It seems to be a way to target the "hexless" game players into trying out a semi-"Battletech" system.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Ohhh that actually sounds better.

[@ShadowAxon]

​@@TabletopTurtle I exclusively play Alpha Strike, I've only played classic once, but it never gave me a "War feel" because placing more than 2 mechs on the table made the battle last hours. But in alpha strike you can run multiple lances in the same length of time.

[@BrandonL337]

My impression is that Alpha Strike is also much better for scaled-up battles as well, multiple lances, combined arms, with tank platoons, aircraft, etc.

[@VictorSteiner]

Alpha Strike is so watered down that it basically has nothing to do with Battletech anymore besides the minis: there is a classic/Alpha Strike hybrid invented by Death frommAbove Wargaming called Battletech Override. Faster than classic but still with individual weapons and simplified armor. A VERY good mix!

[@vectorstrike]

Alpha Strike is great!

[@RattlerNxt]

Infinity is an amazing game. Even with the dense rules, it takes me 10 min to demo 80% of them because it’s so intuitive.

[@TabletopTurtle]

It really is intuitive surprisingly which is so helpful in remembering the rules if you go awhile without playing

[@Maladjester]

I have been interested to try Infinity. Sadly I live in the boonies and what passes for my local gaming scene is heavily invested, like took-out-a-second-mortgage-I-have-a-problem-someone-help-me heavily invested in 40k.

[@RattlerNxt]

@@Maladjester that’s rough. I get it.

[@garylane6227]

Infinity is so great people get in to it, play for six months, then completely lose interest.

[@RattlerNxt]

@@garylane6227 you could say the same for any game for any number of reasons.

[@rjscorpion8892]

The reason 40k is better is the number of players. Around me, no one is playing these other games whereas you can always find a game. That alone is a huge factor.

[@TabletopTurtle]

And that's totally fair. Can't play this stuff solo. I just manipulate friends to play what I want.

[@S0nyb1ack]

I'm extremely lucky to have a relatively big (for our small country at least) local community who looooove miniature agnostic games and Conquest: Last argument of Kings (and there are a couple of people willing to play Malifaux with me as well) :D I've really bounced off warhammer hard, but I'm enjoying my time with Conquest a lot - though I do really like rank and flank games in general ;)

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

The trick, is to be the one who introduces the game.

[@Haddedam]

My tiny country has almost entierly wh players but since the game is geniuinely rather bad even in their opinion and GW is terrible, every player has armies for like 4-5 different games. Bonus point: for the price of a SINGLE medium sized 40k army, you can get like 5-10 full playable miniature sets for other games. And as a bonus, statistically those games are going to be flat out better to play as well.

[@garylane6227]

And do you think that it is played more because people prefer it? Logic would dictate that if all these other games were so much better people would be playing them. I think there are better games than 40k (and better editions of 40k as there are so many), but there is no miniature game that is more popular. That is just a fact.

[@BloodSplatterArtist]

Warmachine gave Warhammer such a run for its money because at that time it had a much more consistent/competition friendly rule set. PP rolled out MK2 in between 40ks 5th and 6th editions. At the time it was much more attractive to hardcore competitive gamers who cared more about playing and winning games than lore accurate armies.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I often wonder if a day will come when Warhammer will lose the crown for good.

[@BloodSplatterArtist]

@@TabletopTurtle in the late 00s early 10s it seemed inevitable, but it seems sometime in the last decade or so they did a major course change and managed to stop the bleeding.

[@BillMurphy-j8o]

@@BloodSplatterArtist They had a rough time in the mid 2000s and early 2010s. The early 2000s marked the launch of the LOTR miniatures game, which, along with the movies, gave them a solid boost for a while. I hear it’s a great game. Over the last decade or so, they’ve been releasing more and more games. Back when I worked at the HQ in Canada, we launched about two games a year at most-usually just one. Now, it seems there’s a new game or revamped system almost every month. They’ve grown by diversifying and reaching unexpected gamers with things like deck-builders or lighter games that bridge board and mini-games. They had a major licensing agreement with Fantasy Flight, which brought in substantial revenue, though I don’t think Fantasy Flight holds that property anymore. I love GW on so many levels: marketing, miniatures, game design. While they miss the mark sometimes, their success is inspiring. Last I heard, Marvel Comics held the GW license, for better or worse. I read one of their comics, and it was decent. I have a deep history with GW, so for me, it’s a lot of nostalgia. The lore in their games also is what keeps me excited, some of the changes there I hope they don't screw it up. That could be the thing that brings them down. Probly not but could. It would take decades if it happens.,

[@gwitch]

@@TabletopTurtleIf they couldn’t lose it when the company literally killed the game that started the franchise, replaced it with a game with no points and “whoever has the biggest mustache can re-roll” rules, and had no social media presence, then they never will tbh.

[@Void-wanderer]

what strikes me is how Turtle loves Guildball, but hated WMH, since GB is basically it, but 6 models. SFG even bought the wmh recently.

[@11AleZZ]

ASOIAF its a A to me, pretty easy to learn hard to master game, its also relatively cheap game, you only need a starter and 2-3 unit boxes and thats it, yeah some of the new factions are a bit redundant but if you use the 3-4 first factions, you have a ton of replay value

[@TabletopTurtle]

I do love how inexpensive it is. I've seen it on huge sale many times.

[@christiancouture2194]

Where I disagree with the review is that the game is so deep, between the different armies, their units, the tactical cards ,choice of commander and attachments, on top of the 'political board', everything definitely feels unique to me

[@johnwilson7207]

I like Space Station Zero. Agnostic minis, build a team, go explore as co-op teams or skirmish on the main deck. The game encourages a diverse skill set rather than just a smash & bash through the scenarios, works well with odd number of players too so nobody gets left out.

[@thesurlyhippie9397]

It's damn tough, though.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've never heard of that! I'll have a look. Big points for cooperative!

[@jefferydraper4019]

It looks interesting for a couple of playthroughs but after that it would seem to get repetitive. Maybe a more diverse table of opponents/traps/rewards would help. Im actually re-watching Ash Barker's playthrough since its been a couple of years.

[@HellsWolf666]

Infinity and Malifaux S tear. Thumbs up, comment and a share. You are a man of culture.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Haha my anime watching brain went to something very different with "man of culture".

[@DefectiveDice]

This

[@Void-wanderer]

Definitely check out the Bushido again! The current edition is just fantastic! Its competitiveness of ruleset rivals that of the Malifaux, it has a constant releases, miniatures are brilliant and community is very welcome! Devs sometimes personally answer a lot of questions about the game in their Discord. Right now it's my favorite wargame, I've built a solid local community and we are steadily growing.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll have to take a look again but my friend moved away who played it. I'm not sure there is much of a scene here.

[@Void-wanderer]

@@TabletopTurtle ah, we've made a community map, maybe you'll find someone close to you! www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1lIVmdjg_1o154S2vY3zHWT1Xak4hsZM&ll=45.18418001480041%2C21.967277139418318&z=4

[@Void-wanderer]

@@TabletopTurtle we've created a player map where you can see if anyone is nearby. www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1lIVmdjg_1o154S2vY3zHWT1Xak4hsZM&ll=55.8921446444294%2C37.430260150287396&z=14

[@DaFalk216]

Where's One Page Rules tho? Would've loved to see it in the ranking^^

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll have a look!

[@dennisolvg]

I was thinking the same

[@googlemademedoit806]

Poor Star Wars Armada... didn't even make the list T_T

[@TabletopTurtle]

HAHA funny cause when I was just making the list of games I played I did notice the lack of Armada, because I think I always dismissed it as just X-Wing with some extra shit and a larger scale.

[@clontroper5]

​@@TabletopTurtle Star Wars Armada has some of my favorite mechanics ever! Specifically the defense tokens system is Amazing IMO adds much for strategic depth and decision making to acts of attacking and defending then simply rolling dice like most minatures games.

[@ridingwarthogs3244]

​@TabletopTurtle Having played both it's a completely different game to X-wing. Much more strategy and more need to plan ahead with how your ships are controlled

[@AinarMiyata]

Yup, armada is a completely different beast. Armada is a much more thinky strategy game. It’s incredible if you have a taste for that kind of thing.

[@alexandrepetean4612]

You should try Armada.

[@CaptinCrofty]

Played my first game of infinity today! Was really fun very very crunchy can’t wait to get a Handel on it

[@TabletopTurtle]

That's awesome! Man, I have found the community in Infinity to be so damn good. I literally walked into a store one day and saw some guys playing it and knowing nothing about it I asked if I could observe, after like 15 minutes they stopped playing and just taught me the game and let me play. I walked out of that damn store with an entire army haha

[@bjornsoderstrom378]

That’s the neat part. You won’t get a handle on it. Ever.

[@eriklindqvist9923]

X-Wing was just killed by Asmodee/AMG last month. They will support tournaments up until Adepticon next year, but production has stopped so no more products. Fans are already stepping up to keep it alive. The community is quite split since 2020 when AMG took over from FFG and changed the game a lot. It is about a 50-50 with players liking 2.0 and the new "2.5". The latest version from AMG has no official edition or core set, just PDF rules, which also made it confusing for new players and didn't help the community. Still really like the changes from 1.0 to 2.0 though, it balanced things after the power creep that happened the last years of 1.0, and it upgraded the old ships with mechanics that had been added during later waves.

[@TabletopTurtle]

That's sad to hear but inevitable with a lot of these mini games owned by a more generalist company like CMON, Fantasy Flight, etc. Plus it's a licensed property, so you know that's running out eventually. Maybe I'll try to find some online deals for some X-Wing stuff before it's all gone.

[@chrisblack8205]

2.5 is pretty excellent, though I never played 1.0 (the version you played). I don't give a shit about Star wars, but this got me gaming again as much as when I was playing magic.

[@Wolf359inc]

Exactly this. Game moved from FFG, who were passionate about it, to AMG, who didn’t appear to know what to do with it. 1.0 was great, but had balance issues. 2.0 was better. 2.5 basically killed it. It feels as though AMG just didn’t understand it, and it was outside their wheelhouse. It is well worth picking up the conversion kits for second edition, especially if you have a large collection. It allows you to use all your 1.0 ships in 2.0. I didn’t buy any re-releases of 2.0 ships, unless there were substantial changes to the models. So picked up more X-wings, because the new models had wings that opened and closed, Y-wings, because the new models looked so much better, and so in. Did purchase all the new stuff they released for 2.0. This was the game I always wanted someone to make, since I first saw the Millennium Falcon soar across the screen, being chased by TIE Fighters, way back in 1978 (yes, I am old… 😂). I will always keep my collection. Cheers,

[@LennyFace-h7q]

I thought the second edition came out too soon.

[@eriklindqvist9923]

@@LennyFace-h7q It was 6 years after initial release. That is pretty long for a miniature game.

[@AlertedDonkey42]

Love seeing Malifaux and Infinity getting the recognition they deserve for their awesome settings and rule sets. I do think a revisit to Bushido is warranted. It’s up there with Infinity and Malifaux in my opinion. For recommendations I’d suggest Dystopian Wars, Botwar, and Judgement: Eternal Champions. Dystopian wars is my favorite naval combat game. Botwar really brings that nostalgia for 80’s and 90’s cartoons. Judgement has hex-based gameplay and beautiful models made by Creature Caster. Thanks for the video!

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll get back to Bushido eventually. I'd imagine the company is still supporting the game.

[@thomgizziz]

@@TabletopTurtle You should try warhammer underworlds, it is like warcry but in a quick small tabletop game.

[@DefectiveDice]

Valid

[@jaredbrummett6047]

The Heroscape slander is diabolical

[@daniel-lee888]

Ha - yes I love Heroscape, it's provided hours of fun for me and friends and easy to get new players up and running. Prepainted minis (in the original sets) means they are table ready immediately. I'll never sell my sets!

[@TabletopTurtle]

haha man I swear I'm not being an asshole, I genuinely wanted to like that game but every single time I kept asking myself "is this it!?" after every play. Then I had to deconstruct the damn board!

[@CarbonBallas]

@@TabletopTurtle haha!! So true. Even though I'm an avid heroscape fan. Lol

[@zackanderson9453]

@@TabletopTurtleI’m not sure where you live, but come out to an event. Best part of then game is army building. Also, why take down the map? Do you take down your 4x6 each time?

[@ClayHales]

@@TabletopTurtle Let me guess. You solo played?

[@Olivia-ev9hk]

I didn't see AoS on your list it is basically all the good stuff in 40K but way less annoting with charts and shooting across the the field over and over. Lots more engagement and tactical play.

[@TabletopTurtle]

If only that new starter set wasn't 300 dollars, my word!

[@Olivia-ev9hk]

@TabletopTurtle yea...GW is a bit bad at new player on boarding. You are far better off getting with some friends finding an army you like and buying the models you need while skipping the starter box unless you want Skaven

[@lordy6666]

AoS is trash tier.

[@drugmate9710]

​@@lordy6666 No.

[@piixable]

Aos has faaar better models than 40k and plays very nicely.

[@stevehall364]

I do see your points about war machine and it totally makes sense as someone who is only seen a couple of games in Of all the tabletop games I've played it's the one that felt the most like chess to me. Knowing the exact threat ranges that your opponent's bottles can get in an attack, if you were to move your models up to threaten them for the next turn you also need to put some things in place to protect them and punish your opponent if they take that piece you just handed them. There is a huge amount of risk management figuring out averages on dice rolls and weighing your chances, as well as resource management knowing when to spend your resources to guarantee a hit or damage goes through through. And the other factor that wouldn't be noticed in your first few games is that every damage profile on every weapon even if it seems generic is unique and has unique jobs to counter counter other specific types of units. Even a difference of two power can change the role that weapon has

[@TabletopTurtle]

If you ever see me at a convention, call me over to play and show me

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

“Infinity is a game that I’d never recommend to anybody.” This is the only reason I don’t put Infinity as S Tier.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Likely should have clarified that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't deep in the hobby space and have been playing games for a long time . . . so certainly none of my friends. Still best game on the market today.

[@Direwoof]

I'd recommend it to super nerdy autistic strategy nerds who literally read sun tzu the art of war and legend of the five rings XD I love it but I never win a game.

[@faelreklaw8837]

@@TabletopTurtle Love infinity but after I missed some yeats i am so lost. The different rule editions, the out of order models, the state of the game, Where do i start, whats going on?

[@kumachan42]

@@faelreklaw8837 if you stop before third edition fireteam (N3) i could understand it s complicated. But in october the fith edition (N5) is about to be released and remember rules a free in inifinty, good moment to come back. Between N3 and N5 there was no deep change. have news rule edition is part of all game , so you have to do with it, all miniature wargame have rulz update every 3-4 years, it s not "an infinity things" (N3 was 2014, N4 2020, N5 end of 2024, so you have lot of time between "new rule set""). About "out of order models" it s just your local reseller, corvus belli official website have the collection up to date and all product are supposed to be available (just check another reseller). And for model : infinity is "proxy friendly" you check line of sight in doubt with silouette / shade of the model , so don t bother with out of order model, juste need the right base.

[@dennisolvg]

I agree with that quote only in the case if you are new to wargames as ​@@TabletopTurtle says, and actually I think that could only apply to the complete version, because from my experience Code One is a great format to approach the game and fall in love with it, this simplified version is still great and offers you some great games.

[@andreytatarinovminiatures]

Didn't expect to see my miniatures in this video. At 37:52 shows my Cult of Yurei force. I won fantasy unit category at Salute 2013 with them. Haven't painted anything in years. Got a bunch of hot wheels cars not too long ago, but didn't do any thing with them.

[@TabletopTurtle]

You did a great job! You should get back at it!

[@TheGreySpectrum]

Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40,000, Necromunda, and Mordheim were ultimately born of RPGs. That's what Rick Priestley was usually getting himself into prior to working at GW (which started really early on in his life). Priestley, the man that more or less made these games (and the GW LotR game, and Bolt Action), has always been more interested in simulation and creating stories than really much of anything else. That's why people like myself like those games as much as we do. They're 'Your Dudes' games, not wannabee competitive video games on a table. Also, GW never stopped supporting MESBG. I really don't understand why you said as much. Just because the releases are slow doesn't mean it has been 'abandoned', and considering GW's track record, you count your blessings when GW ignores you in favor of fucking up some other game (like 40k or that ungodly heap that is AoS). You may already be aware, but we are (unfortunately) about to get a new edition of MESBG, right after a final release pertaining to Angmar and its war with Arnor, along with a whole host of new miniatures.

[@TabletopTurtle]

They for sure have that role playing foundational feel to them. I think my issue always comes from the games always feeling a little dated when I visit them, since I didn't start with GW games. And GW games always felt like is pushing product on me rather than an experience. Happy to hear Middle Earth isn't abandoned. It just seemed like it and that's what my friends at the shop were saying.

[@TheGreySpectrum]

@@TabletopTurtle I legitimately do not understand the mindset behind the 'dated' thing. You're not the first person I've heard it from, so it's not the first time I've thought on it before. Time has no baring on the quality of a game, otherwise everyone would be going on about how amazing modern World of Warcraft or Call of Duty are, so it always seems to me that it's just about certain characteristics that are in vogue either now or when a person got into wargaming. To me, we're discussing very different kinds of games, although they are all under an unfortunately broad umbrella known as 'wargames'. Ironically, I feel the opposite way about older GW games or editions of games as what you said of Mordheim; I feel like they don't overstay their welcome. Fundamentally they're simple and straightforward, and on top of that they've built a lot of the simulation. For Mordheim in particular, Tuomas Pirinen, who was the primary rules writer behind Mordheim with Priestley being the secondary that I believe provided the basic structure, has himself stated that Mordheim is not a 'balanced' game. That's why skaven with a shit ton of slings are so broken, and why two hand weapons (1h x 2 that is) are, in the core game, pretty much the objective best choices. Also you wouldn't take armor at all, or shields, so on and so forth. The game was never meant to be played like that, though. Warhammer Fantasy and Mordheim have such enduring legacies due in no small part to their sandbox nature. 40k's 3rd edition was released in 1998 (iirc), Mordheim was 1999, and Fantasy 6th edition was 2000. In the early 2000's, we got a lot alternative rules and encouragement in White Dwarf to come up with our own units. To convert, and just make shit up. Pirinen himself has, I believe, commented that the thing that he hated the most was how players were so reluctant to change rules as they saw fit. Rattling on a bit, sorry about that. GW are absolute scum, though, you're dead-on with that assessment in the 40k section. These days they tend to ruin everything the touch, their games are made to sell models, rather than selling models for their games (Priestley himself cited the company's escalating greed as his primary reason for leaving). People that insist the games they sell right now are the best ever are frankly coping because they've sunk too much money into the games. A lot of GW simps these days (pardon the expression) but back in the late 00's, early 10's, everyone loved Warhammer but hated GW. MESBG; in the US you tend not to see it a lot, but there is a thriving community in the UK and I think Australia and NZ. It's a bit regional, but they still sell most of the miniatures. I think in the US we just have the problem of "If it doesn't get weekly updates I'm not playing it" worse than most places. Frankly, if you want to get things going locally, you sorta just have to start pushing it. After I got a local 40k scene going again last year, about six months ago I finally got Mordheim started; only two of us have ever played it before. Fantasy and MESBG are the next games on my list.

[@Dead_Fish0]

As a 40k fan I do totally agree with you about 40k fans🤣 One thing to add in the next section, Batman, you mentioned how you were upset they changed the rules to make it boring - I think that's what 40k fans are often complaining about, and how frequent they change 😤

[@TabletopTurtle]

Then they are my brothers!

[@ScooterinAB]

To be fair, the gameplay of 40k is shit. It's not so much the fans as it is the company no longer making actual games.

[@renaukint8264]

@@ScooterinAB tbh 10th edition is by far the best version they made, and its very tactical, its just you cant evaluate that by playing one game as our presenter here does. I started in 2nd edition quite around 6th and now got back in 10th and its a blast to play.

[@BillMurphy-j8o]

I love Blood Bowl-used to play it a lot, and I have most, if not all, of the books from the latest edition. Blood Bowl is pure nostalgia for me. Over the years, many balancing adjustments have been made, but the game remains crazy fun. I wish there were a better way to manage the fun, chaotic elements like “slipping on a banana peel” or “taking out the ref.” I love my Halfling chef! It was one of my first mini-games, starting back in the 2nd edition. The 3rd edition introduced big changes that still shape the game today. The system is solid, and the minis are beautifully sculpted-GW usually knocks it out of the park, though they drop the ball now and then, LOL. Thanks for all your reviews! I have a real love for GW-even though, as you said, we hobbyists complain a lot. I adored them in my teens and spent almost a decade working with them, helping open GW Canada HQ. We expanded from 2 stores to 23 by the time I left in the early 2000s. Though I haven’t been involved in years, I still hold on, pretending I’ll get back to it someday. Maybe you’ve rekindled the spark for mini-games!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Maybe you will! Maybe you just need a different mini game to light that fire!

[@TrowaVidel]

Before i comment on anything specifics just need to say, Great video. it's always good to have a resource like this to gather different opinions of a game before jumping in. That being said, MAN I didn't think it'd hurt so much to see someone bounce off of Blood Bowl that hard. It's a game that brought me so many fun memories. Weird though that Guild ball jived with you for a lot of the reasons I enjoy about Blood bowl(The focus on scoring rather then just fighting, the humor etc)... But Obviously if the bones of a game don't work for you there's no reason to stick and keep playing. On the other side as someone who just stumbled into the Gaslands hole, Hard agree. Played with with roommates on our kitchen table and we had a great time and may even start up a in-house season play. so fun!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Man, I wanted to like it so much. I really genuinely did! I was so psyched hearing about it and I was pumped to play a season but after playing I was just so damn disappointed and sad. For Gaslands I now have friends who have ZERO interest in modeling or painting who own their own hotwheels cars that they've glued random shit to haha

[@Yakiro255]

Love hearing about all these miniature games. I've been looking for more after 40k. My only wish would be to hear even more about the rules.

[@TabletopTurtle]

There is certainly a lot out there and it can be hard to pick the perfect one, since it's such a heavy financial investment it makes it hard to dabble.

[@emilandersson6470]

Here's a point of view from someone with a completely different outlook. Might not be entirely relevant to the video topic but I felt like writing it up anyway. Me and my chums decided to go back and play the Warhammer of our childhoods in the 90s. We've pretty much jumped back 30 years to the schoolyard days of going over the same citadel catalogue every break between classes, arguing over which armies had the cooler stuff, except now we're actually collecting, painting and playing it too. Best move ever. I absolutely prefer getting off the train (so to speak) rather than ride along with the trends, weirder and crazier as they're getting. Games Workshop did their part by writing the rules back then, now the game is ours to perfect. As to the quality of the game(s) back then and where they would have ended up in your ranking... to be frank, I don't really care. They are exactly what I want them to be: good fun with a group of old friends and a huff of that powerful nostalgia, hooo boy!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Nostalgia berries are potent and wonderful and certainly not something I'd turn my nose up at.

[@VictoriaWargaming]

Hi There, Not sure how long ago you played KoW, but i think you ran into the biggest 'problem' of KoW - It's a wargame with Fantasy flavor, not a Fantasy game with wargame flavor. Chess is bland, but it's well balanced and fair, stable and about the player, not the list you brought to the table. KoW is like that. You need to play it quite a lot before what it brings to the table becomes apparent - 2 games? Nowhere near enough to even scratch the surface - especially if you're not making your own list to create your own toolkit to go with strategies you come up with. In KoW the gameplay comes from you using your army as a toolkit to win battles, using the terrain for advantage and playing to objectives. There are no crutches or special rules or 'easy' ways of winning games. It's not Herohammer/Magichammer/Monsterhammer and for some people they're after the Fantastic Fantasy, not the Wargame. If you want a wargame, like.. a proper wargame.. with Fantasy flavor I think KoW is the best out there. Our channel did an intro video to KoW which included a game being played so is quite long - kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJubc4urmcRqo5I Cheers!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Only going to revisit one rank and flank game and it will be either Conquest or KoW.

[@pforson]

Totally. KoW is amazing. I love your description of it being a wargame first and foremost. The fantasy setting is just set dressing. In 30 years it is the most enjoyable wargame I‘ve ever played! 👍

[@thebigsquig]

agreed to KoW being by far the best rank/flank game around. Old World is such a mess by comparison.

[@mikefish1124]

I'm not exactly the kind of guy who demands that everyone like the same things i do, but i find your take on Warmachine to be...baffling. It's like everything you disliked about it was completely opposite of reality, to the point where you might as well have been talking about a different game. Wacky.

[@TabletopTurtle]

This is definitely the most repeating comment. I might have to give it another shot, perhaps.

[@mikefish1124]

@TabletopTurtle I don't know - you seem so psychologically dead set against it, I'm not sure a repeat would help you? Not saying you are some sort of close-minded person, but sometimes folks just have such a negative experience, that it taints all future interactions. So while the game is easily probably the best out of all you just listed, I'm not sure it's for you, man. Probably just keep playing what you currently like, you know?

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@mikefish1124 Makes sense to me. I mean, shit, we all are starving for more free time and we only have so much to give to the things we enjoy.

[@niceasmd9890]

​@@TabletopTurtleI'm going to add in to the pro-warmachine crowd. The game is incredibly deep. The problem it has is that the learning curve can be quite steep, and player skill is a huge factor. We had to actively ensure that new players didn't play 'that guy' until they were comfortable with the rules or else they'd have a miserable experience

[@robertthurman9866]

I love videos like this. Short, to the point, good stuff, bad stuff and a rating. If my fave game get's trashed I don't mind. In fact often I can agree with why it was disliked. And I learn about new games. Aristeia! and Moonstone both sound good. Agnostic miniature rules always welcome. Subscribed.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Aristeia isn't supported any longer but you can usually find the stuff fairly cheap and it's a good stand alone game that's easy to bust out for none mini gamers. Moonstone is pricey, fair warning, but thankfully you don't need a lot of minis to play.

[@martinpersson1412]

Happy to see Malifaux at the top :) I have yet to find a wargame (or any game) that I think is better.

[@TabletopTurtle]

There isn't. Stop searching. It's like I said, I might acknowledge Infinity (which I also love) as better game with WAY more depth . . . but man there is just something about Malifaux that provides way more joy, despite it also being a very strategic and dense game itself.

[@peterixon8708]

You might want to look at Test of Honour, Star Wars Rebellion, Dune: War for Arrakis, Assassin's Creed (the board game) along with Twilight Imperium IV. You may not have so many GW products in your list if you do, but a look at Blackstone Fortress is the exception to my saying so. But thanks for your review and your thoughts.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've played Rebellion, Dune, Assassin's Creed and TI. Although I have not played fourth edition, only third. And I prefer War of the Ring to Rebellion and Dune.

[@oldman1111]

Malifaux in S Tier? Okay, I'll definitely watch. Edit: Mal AND Infinity S Tier? I like this. This is good.

[@TabletopTurtle]

This man knows what's up!

[@Paheej]

Great video and hope your channel takes off!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Thanks for the kind words! Hopefully you saw some games here that peaked your interest so you can waste some money! 😜

[@energyfitness5116]

Bloodbowl is mechanically, about scoring with rolling dice the FEWEST times possible. Nuffle hates you and your team so he plays games with your luck. No Battletech Alpha Strike? BT AS drank a bit of Warhammer 40k's milkshake a bit. Bonus for Battletech: can be played very cheap.

[@kylemoore7746]

Thanks for putting this together. I appreciate the range of games you've played, not something too many people have experience in.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Too much free time apparently 🤣

[@DavidLees3D]

An easy S tier for me that I can recommend is Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings. Gorgeous models, simple rules, very deep gameplay. It's easily my #1 game right now. Some honorable mentions are Alkemy, Rumbleslam, Dropfleet/Dropzone Commander, and Carnivale.

[@TabletopTurtle]

What's the difference between Last Argument and First Blood?

[@Aethon988]

@@TabletopTurtle Last Argument is Rank and Flank, First Blood is Skirmish. They both use the same minis. I can't believe you didn't include it. It is much bigger than some of the games you listed.

[@VayneEisenhart]

Came here to say this. Yes, please do try and review Conquest as well.

[@nightovizard]

What about conquest and first blood? Ever got the chance to try them?

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'd need someone to teach and play those games with me. I haven't had the chance yet.

[@OliverOusley]

Killteam 2 is a little more like warcry rather than 40k. I'd thoroughly recommend giving it a go. I like playing it when I'm mentally fatigued from Infinity

[@oloolopatrolo]

Intersting list. My biggest question is what exactly puts you off about the magic system in Bushido. I think it is a really elegant system with much to consider during gameplay. Liking it so much, I am really intersted in other opinions.

[@roycepodeszwa6857]

You should try out Star Wars: Armada. It was created by FF same as X-wing and, unlike X-wing, did not get totally reworked by AMG. Has the unique movement style to it and tactical fleet combat that's a blast to play. I like to think of it as chess in space.

[@TabletopTurtle]

It never took off like X-Wing did. I wonder why that is.

[@saintseiyablade]

Great list of games. I too started as a board gamer and pivoted more into miniature wargaming. I would recommend to look into these 2 games next: Blood & Plunder by Firelock and Carnevale by TTCombat.

[@TabletopTurtle]

More Carnevale mentions. I'll have to check out a cool playthrough and see what it's like.

[@gstellar96]

Conquest by Parabellum is my personally favorite rank and flank game as they have large high quality minis with a very unique aesthetic for all the factions with interesting lore and gameplay that revolves around a deck of cards where you have to prepare the order you're activating your units in advance with a lot of mechanics that mess around with the deck as you're playing

[@evanuphil]

Plus one for trying conquest. As a new gamer it was way more approachable than Warhammer, and the minis are awesome. Customer-friendly company and growing community.

[@TabletopTurtle]

That does sound interesting and it's nice they made their troops not carbon copied of one another. That makes for some boring paint nights.

[@funTimesInTheSun]

@@TabletopTurtle It's actually 2 games, First Blood is a skirmish game and Last Argument is a rank and file game.

[@w0197]

Thanks for the video! I love to see games other than Warhammer getting love. I would recommend One Page Rules, extremely simplified version of warhammer, very beer and pretzels. Also love games from Snarling Badger Games, specifically Space Station Zero and Deth Wizards.

[@jamespreston3414]

I completely agree with you about Malifaux. I utterly disagree with you on Infiniti. Malifaux has a great mission system too, that's one of my favorite parts, because you can complete schemes by actively sacrificing models, really throwing your opponents for a loop. The Infinity games I've seen and takes from the meta lists make me never want to touch it with a ten foot poll at my local stores.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Yeah I love that you can focus entirely on the mission in Malifaux and end up surprising your opponent if they're not paying special attention.

[@magnum696]

Really enjoyed your video and really appreciate the fact that your opinion comes from having actually played these games instead of others who just read descriptions about them. I have played most on your list. Gaslands was my gateway into the hobby. It is a great little game. Since then I tried a lot of systems and, like you, my favorites have been Inifinity, Malifaux and MCP. I also enjoy Star Wars Legion. It is unfortunate however, that my locals neither play Malifaux or Infinity. We have good groups for MCP and Legion. They are fun but nothing like the strategy involved with Malifuax with the fun secondary objectives or the fun reactive turns of Infinity. 40k is always popular. I gave that a shot this year but could not get over the non alternating activations. In general each game is fun in it's own way and it is fun to jump around time to time. Looking forward to a future video if you decided to update on additional games you try.

[@TabletopTurtle]

It really sucks when the game you love requires people outside your friend group to enjoy because you're kinda at the mercy of whatever new game is in your local meta. And the alternating action thing always made me laugh because any GW product that has it, the feature gets advertised like it's some big innovation! 🤣

[@twanvanexsel7760]

Did you ever try Core Space? It is amazing. Like playing an open word computer game. You can do anything you can think off during the game. Very heavy on rules (due to being able to do much) But once you get the hang of it: so much fun!

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll have to give that a look. We do REALLY enjoy dense games in this house, provided that density and complexity is offering a shit-ton of strategy and depth.

[@81Earthangel]

Blood Bowl is a sports game and not a miniature war game. It’s not even a table top game but a board game. And definitely the best game on the list. For Fans of campaign rule sets, both Necromunda and BloodBowl have fantastic Campaign rules.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Well, miniature wargame is just an umbrella term for the algorithm. Miniature games in general were the target. I don't really enjoy campaign type stuff typically.

[@Papaslams]

My favorite miniature game is Relicblade love everything about it. Also check out Rangers of Shadowdeep if you like cooperative!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Rangers of the Shadowdeep is on my wishlist. I'll have a look at Relicblade.

[@Phoney72]

Relicblade is fantastic.

[@matt6387]

As a guy who went from board gaming to tabletop gaming as i aged i just found your channel great list i will stick around if you make more table top content. The beauty of table top games is the hobby and because of it anyone else into the hobby is so committed to the thing that you will always have games even if you dont have local friends who play. It is very cool how the communities around these things work. I would love to know what you think of aos.

[@GlimpG]

I understand the blood bowl hate, but I must insist anyone who wants to try it to actually try it. I know it sounds really stupid, plain and kind of boring, but it's actually a very tactical positioning game that has lots of wacky things that can happen on the very even field, it's very interesting and fun. Believe me, I wasn't interested in it at all but now I'm a true believer, and the community is amazing.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Well I can agree about the community. All good guys from those I've interacted with. I think Guild Ball provided that sports wargame blend I was looking for but it would be cool to have a game that's a little more silly and off the wall. My issue is always those damn charts.

[@odallyo5861]

@@TabletopTurtle I agree that the Charts are random, i think this game is targeted more to a Strategy intensive audience. I absolutely love it. There are Charts and it is RNG but part of that strategy is risk management. Knowing where to zone your players or position them to minimize casualties. I feel that if you are finding the charts as a negative it may purely be due to Noobie Luck. With strategy the Charts are part of the strategy. For example, Getting block as a skill changes your probability on failing a block to a 1/6, whereas normally its a 1/3. Small things like that plus positioning is where the strategy comes in.

[@pan2990]

@@odallyo5861 Also the asymmetry of the teams. If you want fast squishy guys, cool. If you want big tough slow guys, cool. If you want unreliable little guys with crazy tools, cool. There is so much variety but it all hangs together and remains enjoyable. It has remained largely unchanged for nearly 40 years for good reason. The best way into this game is not to play the 11 a side as it tends towards draws and a slower pace. Sevens is much more fun to start with. Nuffle is a capricious god.

[@efrenchavez5369]

Bloodbowl is King.

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@efrenchavez5369 What is queen?

[@EmanuelBradeanu]

This is a great video, very helpful, thank you.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Hope it kept you entertained and helped you make some purchasing choices!

[@albertoguerreromartinez3867]

My top 3 games: Malifaux, Asoiaf, Warmachine. Another favourites to make a top 10: Infinity, Aristeia, Saga, Dropzone commander, Deadzone, Mesbg, Kill team.

[@TabletopTurtle]

That's a solid variety of games in that list! Always good to get a little bit of everything!

[@Sirshadowcat]

Hey! I have a question. Did you ranked the games after their latest edition or only how you experienced it when you played it? Iḿ a big fan och Bloodbowl myself and i dont feel that there is a lot of table reading in that game compared to other games that you rate here. So i wounder wich edition you played.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Would have to be when I played it. I don't think it would be possible to play and rank all these games in a single year to make sure I play the latest edition. For Blood Bowl I've played fourth edition and the edition that came out in 2020 a few times because my friend bought a few sets.

[@davidt4233]

Any thoughts on Shadows of Brimstone? or any other miniature's games for solo or coop play? Thanks. FYI, Mage Knight is one of my favorite games and i don't mind campaigns.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Oh wow, I haven't played that in almost a decade. I remember thinking it was pretty fun. I gave it a 7. I know I liked his other games like Last Night on Earth. There has been a push in the industry to start catering to solo players, so there are a good amount of quality solo mini games. Check out Rangers of Shadow Deep, Fallout Wasteland, and The Walking Dead.

[@igelkott255]

You should try Deadzone. The new Halo game that's coming out soon has a similar game system. Fast, easy to learn, fun scifi skirmish game.

Deadzone is an awesome skirmish game!

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've never been a halo fan, but I'll watch a few playthroughs

[@grutfrut5817]

DZ is the best skirmish game I've played.

[@ccggenius]

One of my friends came back from Gen Con pretty high on the Cyberpunk skirmish game, any thoughts on it?

[@TabletopTurtle]

Is the Cyberpunk Red? I haven't looked at that much beyond a video.

[@ccggenius]

@@TabletopTurtle Yeah, that's the one.

[@mn01_]

The entire point of this video is to stick Kill Team and 40K in C tier to farm rage😂

Seems like it 😛. I can see it with 40K as it sure ain't everyone's cup of tea and GW is GW but using the old version of Kill Team here feels kinda disingenuous as you cant even buy it anywhere at this point.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I spent an hour talking about games and dozens of hours editing to piss off a few Warhammer people. You got me! lol I think with GW I sometimes feel like I'm being sold more of a product than a game. Maybe I'll try the new Kill Team . . . but probably not. I still have yet to see it offer anything new or interesting.

[@mn01_]

@@TabletopTurtle at least you can admit it 🙃 But yes, they are absolutely selling a family of products. GW is an IP led company and they’re sell Warhammer toilet paper if they thought somebody would buy it. It’s a good business model but doesn’t necessarily make good games

[@stylesheetra9411]

40k doesnt even deserve C tier to be honest

[@mn01_]

@@stylesheetra9411 solid f tier just like your mom

[@hav6301]

Great video, its amazing that you got around to learn the rules and get minis for almost 40 games. Two of my favourites skirmish wargames not showcased there are Carnevale by TTCombat and Punkapocalyptic by Bad Roll Games. Some other games that I like the range of minis but haven't played are: Rumbleslam, Dropfleet, The Drowned Earth, Wild West Exodus and Dystopian Wars.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Oh lord I couldn't afford all those minis! I went to A LOT of game nights at stores and learned the rules that way to really jump into the community. I've always been dismissive of Carnevale because it was made by the terrain company, so I thought it just existed to push terrain. I'll have a look. I've actually played Rumbleslam! I should have included that! I didn't enjoy it. It felt a little too simple and not particularly interesting. But I played it I think when it first came out, so maybe it's different now.

[@hav6301]

@@TabletopTurtle Still though its a huge accomplishment! Carnevale was in fact from Vesper On games, TTC later adquired the game and relaunched it with new sculpts and rules, and then created a specific "streets of venice" range for it since they are huge on mdf terrain. Rumbleslam looks pretty unique and fun to me but I dont see it as a main hardcore game.

[@TylerProvick]

Necromunda didn't require a gm for the campaign, btw. It wasn't balanced and had the same randomness of Mordheim, so it's still probably in the right spot of your tier list.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Okay I was misremembering. But I do remember not being overly impressed with the tactics and strategy available to me while playing.

[@Dazzxp]

@@TabletopTurtle Necromunda C tier is criminal! people have been put to death for less!

[@TheDyslexicDragon]

I really hated the Scavvy Plague Zombies spam. Necromunda was definitely not balanced.

[@thesurlyhippie9397]

It's a narrative game, though... "balance": be damned. "Balance" and the quest to find it is what makes so many modern games so... bland.

[@newcomer201]

This is Not a Test is worth a try! Its a cool post apocalyptic skirmish game!

[@TheWarpForge]

Honestly completely disagree with BMG on the D-List. I feel where you're coming from on the edition overhaul, I know it irks me when people tell me 3E is better than 2E but that's because I don't see it as a competition on a games quality but more each edition is more apples and oranges. I have fond memories of my Freeze Crew in 2E and I also have good fun memories of playing Freeze is 3E. With that being said I don't see it as 3E completely removing the elements you liked but more changed the goal posts. I also liked the pre-game counter system but I found it more that it wasn't a board gamey mechanic but more a role-playing one, nor do I see it as taken away but more went purely into attack and defence. Where you need to role-play out the attack and defence dice. I also like the card/deck building system as I feel that each crew doesn't really play samey and plays to the machiavellian schemes of the hero's and Villains. Freeze turns the board into a winter Wonderland, Joker wishes to inflict pain and have the last laugh, Harley is about vandalising the board, Batman's about solving the clues, Bane is about modern Tac Ops and domination, Court is about assassinations, Scarecrows about spreading the fear toxin and terrfying foes, etc. There's very little I see that makes BMG "bland" or "generic". The fault I find more isn't the game itself but more KM as a whole. Community's clique, KM take goodwill for granted, accessibility issues, their rep. The list could go on. It's a shame because I feel Batman is the best ruleset for itself out there but it's held back by KM being KM.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Man I got banned on their official forums so fast and I was so polite too! The problem is I just really like that mechanic. It's what sold me.

[@vectorstrike]

I like BMG a lot. On the other hand, Knight Models isn't the best company to manage a game with such big IP. But the game is pretty fun!

[@tomryan3768]

​yeah their customer service was toxic. I got banned for suggesting PDF rules

[@vicioushellsing]

I wondered why youtube recommended this video to me. Its because Infinity IS the best game ever made. N4 did a good job "de nesting" the rules so rules do a much better job standing on their own instead of needing to know a rule to know a second rule. Its much smoother and definitely the best edition of the game so far.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Reading N4 was a hell of a lot more enjoyable than previous versions. I say this as a technical writer myself, I was pretty impressed with how that book is organized and how easy the rules were to understand after a single read. I'm embarrassed to say I have not even touched any of the expansion books, so I don't even know what new cool mechanics there are out there right now!

[@jonathanpickles2946]

I should give it a look. I always wanted to love Infinity from playing when the rules were on a sheet in the minis boxes. The core system seemed so promising but it always frustrated me that the end result was painful. The rules were always more and more complex when everything they added seemed to add its own special rule. I do not like the mish mash of nations background which does not help!

[@dominicparker6124]

Infinity is an amazing game, but it's so hard to play. And play well. So rules dense, not massively approachable. Very complex. I dropped out of it after years of playing it at tournaments because it just took so much energy to play for where I'm at now. It's not a casual game

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@dominicparker6124 Not in the slightest. I never recommend Infinity to people in the hobby unless they've been playing games for a long time and are okay with diving deep into a single game.

[@jonathanpickles2946]

@@dominicparker6124 That's how I feel about Warmachine, I never quite got there with Infinity but appreciate why someone might love it

[@JoeKundlak]

Have you played OnePageRules (whether fantasy or scifi, army or skirmish versions)?

[@TabletopTurtle]

Not yet!

[@JoeKundlak]

​​@@TabletopTurtle you should 😎 takes away the pain and suffering of GW rules and has alternate activations.

[@colinmack8655]

Kings of War is the game I wish fantasy had been. So you are wrong it’s an a.

[@TabletopTurtle]

What fantasy element is Kings of War doing differently from every other IP?

[@colinmack8655]

​@TabletopTurtle Nightstalkers for one. What about the update to the twilight kin? Have you read any of the novels? Plus the rules are the best smooth fast we'll written and balanced,

[@TheRealCalPerr]

He did start off that section by saying he doesn't like rank and flank to be fair. It's an honest opinion. Also, panethor is as generic fantasy as you can get. Even though it has a few unique factions the other 23 are as generic as possible.

[@Anchises]

@@TheRealCalPerr KoW started as a WFB proxy which is why the armies all seem like Old World armies.

[@pforson]

@@TheRealCalPerrIf he doesn‘t like this style of game then he shouldn‘t be including it.

[@brunoprosaiko5542]

I liked your list. I was able to discover some that I didn't know about. I recommend checking out some indie games, like Forbidden Psalm and Deth Wizards. Lots of fun in unpretentious games.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll have a look! I love indie games.

[@anab0lic]

Infinity and Malifaux at the top where they belong... You have excellent taste sir. Id also put Guildball at S tier, despite it being mishandled by SFG, its still mechanically one the best miniature games that exists and also now being supported by SFG again (kinda). SAGA which you didn't mention, id also rank S tier, you should maybe give that a try sometime.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Guild Ball is amazing, it's true. I am curious to see if the factions get a bit better in regards to how they play because a big complain was that everything started feeling a little samey because SFG couldn't understand how to balance a game properly without making everything the same. I'm not sure I've heard of SAGA. I'll have a look.

[@neillmcmanus5208]

Great ranking video! Have you tried Corvus Belli's new wargame in the Fantasy setting - WARCROW. Though the game has only just been released and it will take time before all the factions are available I think it has great potential, check it out!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Thanks! So far I have only seen Carlos gushing about it on their KZbin channel. I hope it is good. I love their stuff.

[@Lucius292]

Where is deadzone and firefight, warpath? 😢

[@pkups.79]

Indeed, Mantic is strongly underrepresented here. Personally I would add Dreadball, which is an order of magnitude better sports game than Blood Bowl.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll have a look at that one.

[@Strixx23]

I would definitely recommend Dreadball as a sport game. Much faster than bloodbowl. Dead zone and firefight also good. Interestingly, having seen it at a few Hammerhead shows, no one I know has played or is playing Heroscape. Moonstone is great fun. Might be worth having a look at Starsaga and Dungeon Saga

[@davidfromkyushu6870]

I recommend Pulp Alley, a miniatures agnostic system that let you play out pulp adventures between 1-4 players with leagues of thematic characters. Its not a hard system to learn and is flexible.

[@dominicparker6124]

Blitz bowl is an easy A tier. Approachable, instantly fun, great minis (gw bloodbowl models are great), doesn't have gross bloodbowl design from the 80s. It's short at 45 minutes or less, just a real class product. Shockingly deep for it's rules complexity.

[@TabletopTurtle]

The minis are pretty cool. No denying that fact.

[@worm1618]

If you're a fan of Moonstone, then you should give Relicblade a try. It has that same whimsical theme and is easy to teach without feeling samey-same. A lot of people call it their "fun skirmish game."

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've added it on my wishlist. Just need to find someone else to play with.

[@toxiccandy7888]

New Kill team is much better, hated the first edition, second edition is much better. As far as x wing, 2 edition was amazing, adding force powers, new factions. Yes getting the conversation kits was annoying, but most people only needed 1 or 2. And waiting till they were on sale, I bought them very cheap some years ago. Unfortunately it's no longer going to be produced so there is that, and getting ships is going to get harder, and harder to find. But the community is sounding like it's going to try and carry it forward through 3d printing and rules adjustment.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Maybe I'll update my stuff and try again in X-Wing. I do like the idea of having a really approachable mini game for non mini gamers with a theme that a lot of people can relate to and appreciate. I'll have to find somewhere with some good scans on the cards so I can just print them out or find ways to replicate the components through printing.

[@RetnabBanter]

Have you ever tried Wyrd's The Other Side? It's like their army sized version of Malifaux, including the card mechanics! It's overall a slightly simpler game, and IMO is a smoother ruleset overall. Plus, if you compare Malifaux's 2nd and 3rd editions you'll see a bunch of the changes actually originated in TOS haha

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've looked at that a lot, but I'm not the biggest rank and flank fan. Maybe their version might tickle my fancy more. I should try it on Tabletop Simulator first.

[@RetnabBanter]

@@TabletopTurtle I suggest Vassal instead of TTS, there's an up to date module on there!

[@basition]

Rest in piece warzone the mutant chronicles, void, vor, and epic 40k

[@alexc8209]

Ah yes Epic 40K. It was so good they quickly abandoned it. Typical GW move.

[@xraytheman]

Played a few on this list and I totally agree. Infinity being the best for one. That is just 100% true. The effort is worth it, cause it allows for probably the best shoot outs you can find in a wargame. The only wargame that got me podcasting (WIP 12 Podcast) Arestiea is also from Corvus Belli, and you probably will like Warcrow which takes these mechanics too a whole other level. Moonstone is flipping briliant, probably the only wargame I can explain too my mom and have tons of fun with the mindgames. A song of Ice and Fire, I would not place it C, cause it is easy too pick up, but has more depth with systems other games need 100 pages too explain. A rank and file game that plays as easy as a skirmish game. Still want too give Gaslands a go.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I know i really need to try out warcrow. The videos make it look so cool. I need to convince someone on Tabletop Simulator or something ro teach me!

[@robryan5478]

Malifaux and Infinity at S Tier? This guy knows his stuff!

[@TabletopTurtle]

Damn right!

[@elrictraver8275]

You should try n get your hands on some Confrontation, its a high fantasy skirmish game, the company that tried to make it went under, but I wish it would come back. It had some of the most beautiful sculpts and art ever. I recommend everyone give it a look if you can,

[@TabletopTurtle]

I think Confrontation might be the most suggested game in this comment thread. I should tally up all the suggestions and see what game wins!

[@elrictraver8275]

@@TabletopTurtle I think it's mostly been hidden because of the controversy behind what happened in the kickstarter, after Rackham went under, and it's truly a shame. They had some amazing artists and beautiful sculpts. I highly recommend just giving it a look, even if you aren't interested in the game.

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@elrictraver8275 So many companies with drama surrounding poor Kickstarter campaigns. I think I'd probably get someone to teach me on Tabletop Simulator first, since I don't know anyone in the area playing.

[@philhelm1318]

The only rating that "triggered" me was Blood Bowl. I've always thought that it was one of GW's best rulesets (it's essentially a risk mitigation game), and the fact that it is even competing against more modern rulesets probably says something about it.

[@deankirkpatrick7658]

We only play the 7's version, faster play.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Yeah I can see that. I'm just not sure what mechanics are there that can make it go toe to toe with contemporary games in regards to uniqueness.

[@michaelschlossarczyk2459]

How much BB have you actually played? The beauty of the game is derived from easy to grasp but decisive rules that provide for a great depth of play. In contrast you rated games higher that suffer from bloated special rules and bolted in mechanics.

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@michaelschlossarczyk2459 BB? Maybe four games total? Those rulesets are bloated to you because perhaps you fail to see their beauty and necessity to the play experience and the depth that they provide. Some people like a simple ruleset and that's okay. I prefer more depth and sometimes that depth comes at the cost of more rules. I rated those games higher because they're better games, in my opinion.

[@terlshockley442]

​@@TabletopTurtleI'm sorry you didn't have a good experience trying Blood Bowl it is a brutal game that will not ask for forgiveness when it crushes your spirit and that sounds exactly like what happened. The beauty of the game is found at tournaments because of the development aspect of the individual players (minis) and during leagues because of the roleplaying elements.

[@Reagusmage]

I know you hate SFG, rightly so - But Godtear is am incredible miniatures wargame, truly top tier. It does require 2-3 champions each side to play a proper game, but honestly its SO good.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Yeah you're not alone in saying how good Godtear is, which I hate to hear. Maybe I'll find a way to buy it used some day or play a friends'

[@CarbonBallas]

Blood bowl a D?! LOL i consider it a beer and pretzels game like you do, space hulk. But i do not consider space hulk one haha. Regarding Batman... Why wouldn't you stay with the old rules? Nobody forces you to play the new version. Your list is SO fascinating!! I can't figure out what you like. Lol

[@TabletopTurtle]

I tell you exactly what I like in the video LOL I abandon mini games if the publisher releases bad rulesets because it means I can't enjoy the new releases, which for myself, is a big part of my enjoyment of the hobby.

[@CarbonBallas]

@@TabletopTurtle very cool. I meant to say predict which games do you like based on prior rankings. I really enjoyed the video a lot even when I didn't agree with some of the rankings!

[@MrTolli]

You should check out Forbidden psalm, a miniature agnostic game and a kitbashers heaven. Rules are superfun and you roll your warband randomly if you want to. 2nd free league made a game based on their roleplaying game mutant year zero. Very streamlined, chaotic(in a good way) and fun system. Exellent game for newcomers to skirmish games and it is calle Mutant year zero: Zone wars. AND if you love gaslands you will def like forbidden psalm

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've never even heard of that one. I'll watch a few videos on it; however, at the end of the day I can't play anything I can't sucker someone into playing with me be it virtually or in person!

[@ubrot7995]

Maybe you should not put games into these lists that you haven't played? Kill Team 2021/2nd Edition is a completely different game to 2018/1st Edition. Like so different there is very few things they have in common. Kill Team right now is not litte 40k like the previous edition was and only people who haven't played it still keep that wrong belief alive. I would even argue that current Kill Team is one of the best games GW puts out right behind Blood Bowl. Both games dominate my local GW Store with the amount of games played by regulars there, the only game that gets played slightly more is 40k and only because most of these guys have had their armies for years and still want to play them, all whilst complaining about the current edition rules a lot.

[@anab0lic]

@@ubrot7995 none of gws game are above c tier, this becomes very clear when you branch out and play better miniature games.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I don't think it's unfair to put those games on the list, regardless of how extensive the rules edition changes are, especially when I explicitly state the version I played. I have not played the latest Kill Team but I have seen list of changes and I'll tell you this, I have not seen a single change that makes Kill Team stand out to me as a unique and interesting game that's doing something creative or pushing boundaries in any meaningful way. That's important to me.

[@ubrot7995]

@@anab0lic Factually wrong, you are hating on gw for the sake of hating. There is plenty of good other games, that doesn't mean all gw games are just c-tier.

[@ubrot7995]

@@TabletopTurtle Reading a list of rules means very little, many games on your list don't read very interesting or unique in themself. Most of the time what gets people into a game and shows how interesting it is, is how it feels to play. You could have at least watched like one battle report to make up your mind about it. But you didn't, instead you spouted outdated infos and turned your list into an outdated tier list. This is like basing how high 40k/AOS/Bolt Action and many other games are on their first editions. It just means your list doesn't inform anyone because the info is already outdated.

[@anab0lic]

@@ubrot7995 I'm not 'hating for the sake of hating....' I actually started my miniature gaming journey with GW games and enjoyed them at the time. Then I branched out and tried many of the other games out there and saw just how lacking GW's offerings are in comparison I suggest you do the same. Their games bore me now, there isn't the level of turn to turn thinkiness and interesting problems to solve that other games provide. Which in turn creates a much deeper, richer, tactical and strategic experience to explore and provides more replayability without things getting repetitive and stale. GW's game design hasn't evolved much since i was a kid first playing their games in the 90's... that just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

[@planetsmashergames]

Holy h*ck! I just watched this whole video purely because I love hearing about other minis games, (great vid by the way, enjoyed the candour and agreed with the majority of your takes, #malifaux4life), and then you go and put my game right at the end and say such nice things about it. THANKS MY DUDE! :D

[@TabletopTurtle]

Mike? Bro, I love your game! My friends, most of whom play no miniature games at all, also love it. Keep creating!

[@DefectiveDice]

Malifaux and Infinity in S tier. List checks out Love to see you do more on both of those games!

[@TabletopTurtle]

That's a good idea. Maybe a mini overview and review or something

[@AlexDenton0451]

Try out Battletech Alpha Strike if you get the chance, its a simplified and much faster and larger scaled game that Classic Battletech. It's made to play with 10 or more mechs, tanks, helicopters, ETC on a team.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I've read through the rules of Alpha and it does seem like the superior verison.

[@AlexDenton0451]

@@TabletopTurtle it depends for me, Classic BT has significantly more strategy and nuance between every unit in the game. Alpha Strike has the speed and ease of play without everyone having to know how Combined Arms works

[@Dataraptor-v9l]

Agree with Infinity. The gameplay feels so "alive" when the action unfolds on the table. Hiding behind the corner, sneaking my camouflaged guys, keeping my termo-camo guys invisible ready to strike..

[@TabletopTurtle]

Whenever I play Ariadna and I have Van Zant, I always play Back in Black before I make his airborne reveal. My friend hates me.

[@Silverbullet58640]

Great video. Really enjoyed the honesty on your opinions of a lot of these. Definitely solidifies a couple that I've been wanting to try for some time. Gaslands looks like a great time and I know someone who plays. So that will probably be happening. And I've also introduced people to a game called Steel Rift by Ash Barker (of Guerilla Miniatures Games) and Death Ray Designs. Really great boxes with totally customizable miniatures. It's been the most fun I've had building miniatures and posing them the way I want. And the game is a less crunchy Battletech, just streamlined and faster playing. Been really enjoying that one.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Surprise that person and head to the dollar store and start building your own cars so you can show up with a full gang! Oh I didn't know Ash made another game. Love his channel.

[@DJDadJoke]

My one true love in miniatures games is Marvel Crisis Protocol. Such a thematic and fun game. I own almost all the models, and I've even painted some of them. xD A few of my buddies are into Malifaux, so I'm getting a demo game in next weekend. Looking forward to that because that game seems super fun. I've dabbled in Warcry, Monsterpocalypse, and Star Wars Shatterpoint, but none of those games have really taken off locally. I will say that the new edition of Kill Team is MUCH better than the 2018 one you mentioned in the video. I don't blame you for dropping that one, the whole game was very at odds with itself. It was like playing big 40k but awkwardly shoved into a skirmish mold that just didn't fit. The new edition is a completely different game made from the ground up to be its own thing. It has one of the best melee combat systems I've seen in a skirmish game where you alternate applying your successful roles as either hits or parries. There's also a very interesting system where you can set your models as either engaged so you can shoot/charge, or concealed so that they're harder to shoot at. My main complaints with Kill Team 2.0 are that it's overpriced (GW game), the line of sight rules are over complicated and unintuitive, and the rules are overly wordy (GW game). I would put it solidly in B-tier and it is by-far Games Workshop's best 40k game system.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Don't tell Atomic Mass Games but I only own the base set and a few expansions. I 3d printed and painted A TON of Marvel minis to play in the game. I'm a bad person. Hopefully you enjoy Malifaux. It's really tough when you first start. Yeah people keep praising the new Kill Team but I likely won't bother going back. I'm not the biggest GW fan so a game needs to be really damn good to get my cash when it's made by them.

[@dreadknight8398]

Excellent tier rank Really wonder what your thoughts on Warhammer Age of Sigmar game with spearhead

[@TabletopTurtle]

What's spearhead? Is that an expansion? I do appreciate the theme more

[@excessiveclownery4375]

​@@TabletopTurtlespearhead is a gamemode with some unique rules that plays with premade boxsets, basically a smaller AoS

[@christophearbus3523]

Space Hulk should be D Star Wars X-Wing should be max at B Battletech should be B at max or C Fallout should be at least B Kill Team V2 should be at least B A Song of Ice & Fire THAT LOW??? Should be S or A Another S Tier: Deadzone

[@TabletopTurtle]

Disagree!

[@christophearbus3523]

@@TabletopTurtle Of course, otherwise you would ranked them differently. We're not sensible to the same things. From a game design point of view ASOIAF is a gem and I don't know which version you tried to have the feeling every army or character is the same, because you can drastically change the gameplay even sometimes within a same faction.

[@tmorton42]

We play a lot of indie games in addition to bolt action, the one page rules (OPR) gemes, and alpha strike. Some games to check out: 'Zine game system sword weirdos and space weirdos. $5 US for the rules, mini agnostic, simple and fun. Pulp alley that fits any genre we've thrown at it. Again, mini agnostic. Song of blades and heroes. Blood bowl 7's is blood bowl, but faster, for me bb is a good game because it is silly and random. You don't play to be competitive, you play to laugh. Just a few ideas to add to your list

[@TabletopTurtle]

Trying to bankrupt me!? 😝 Thanks for the suggestion! I love sports focused mini games. It just feels like a nice break from endlessly swinging swords and shooting guns.

[@tmorton42]

@@TabletopTurtle So many games! So little time! I didn't even bring up the Snarling Badger Studio games - they are also cheap and mini agnostic. :)

[@donaldhavasy2356]

Kill team getting a low C/D. Dayum

[@TabletopTurtle]

Savage!

[@mikefish1124]

@donaldhavasy2356 it's an accurate assessment

[@alexandrepetean4612]

I missed Skytear on the list. I believe it deserves attention too, even though it is a skirmish style closer to Boardgame with Magic The Gatering and has been discontinued to make way for Onward (new version of Skytear more focused on simulating MOBA) It's a bit like Aristeia, but more complex

[@TabletopTurtle]

I'll have a look. I like that it sounds more complex than Aristeia. Always good to have a few steps inbetween a hardcore mini game and a board game.

[@rastamann2009]

One of the problems with the Star Wars miniatures games is that they pulled something that was downright dishonest to the fan base. There is absolutely NO reason for Shatterpoint, Legion and Imperial Assault to have different scales, other than try and force people to buy everything again. This is the reason I will never support a company that does that. Also, Asmodee has been the absolute worst custodian for the miniatures IP and I sincerely hope they go under, as fast as possible, preferably taking the hedge fund that owns them down as well.

[@TabletopTurtle]

I think that's sort of the problem with very large companies, like the behemoth that is Asmodee, handling products within a VERY tiny niche.

[@tahubob]

Heroscape is S tier to me, I understand why the rules might be boring to you since you're so experienced but the rules being so simple allows everyone to play and the complexity being in characters and team building adds a lot of depth. The rules being so simple means that non tabletop gamers can still have a ton of fun and building the battlefield lego style then actually playing on it is the best. I've played since I was a kid but have had success playing with adults as well, and the community added a ton during the hiatus. I'm so glad it's back!

[@TabletopTurtle]

That's fair. I picture a father and son having one hell of a blast together playing that game. It would be cool if there were two different rulesets to the game and one was a bit more advanced. But I guess that would require multiple character cards and balance issues. I do like that I can have a miniature game and terrain that I can toss in a bin with abandon instead of carefully handled like a Fabergé Egg haha

[@jonathanw3258]

Blood Bowl is D and Chain of Command is missing entirely. That sums up the taste of the person making the list. Hard pass.

[@TabletopTurtle]

Owned!

[@jonathanw3258]

@@TabletopTurtle that wasn’t my intent. It just shows we like wildly different kind of miniatures games. That’s fine, but it means your recommendations probably aren’t going to be games I’d enjoy.

[@TabletopTurtle]

@@jonathanw3258 Just buy what I tell you not to.

[@jonathanw3258]

@@TabletopTurtle sounds like a catchy new slogan for your channel!

[@S0nyb1ack]

I haven't (yet) finished the video, but from the timestamps I see I might be able to toss a few more suggestions your way ;) Firstly: this one is extremely light! So beware - this one will be devisive for "weight" alone, it is a "beer and pretzel game", BUT it also plays in 20 - 30 minutes. The doomed (from osprey). Mini agnostic kitbashers heaven ;) Great system to generate missions (random mission + random big monster attacking both sides silmultaniously), though it does shine a bit more in campaign play in my opinion. Amazing into game for people who don't know wargames - also a unique movement system with no measuring. Second: might not be your jam, since you don't enjoy rank and flank - but I had a really greattmie playing Conquest: Last argument of kings. It also has a smaller "sibling" COnquest: First blood, which is closer to skirmish size, if the big rank and flank game would be too much to try out :)