The Missing Link in modern Recorder Playing

An explanation about why recorder players of today should deal with and actively involve themselves in both the playing techniques and the building principles of the new recorder models.
Warum die Blockflötisten von heute sich aktiv - sowohl spiel- als auch bautechnisch - mit den neuen Blockflötentypen beschäftigen sollten.

[@Kunath]

That's right. Let's talk about this important ideas, let's make a lot of reseach and develop new contemporary recorder models. Karel: Thumb up !!!

[@李季衡-s6l]

The background musics are so beautiful.

[@zephirius]

The eagle recorder !

[@mollenhauer-blockfloeten]

Nice and interesting video indeed, thanks! We would like to add that a certain additional number of extra holes covered by a key mechanism does not automatically turn a woodwind instrument (including the recorder) into a modern instrument. If they would, then the recorders build 200 years before our modern times (like illustrated in the video) would be called modern instruments. These very interesting romantic recorders are sometimes fitted with even more additional keys than the amount of their usual regular open finger holes. In consequence, they offer additional playing possibilities. But this still does not turns a recorder into a modern one. That is the crucial point.

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

This of course is obvious! Extra holes and keys are only one of the many items we need to think of when we are discussing the adaptions with which the recorder can be part of the woodwind group again in our time. But this is not the forum for such extensive discussions. Please contact me otherwise.

[@ErnestoValt]

@@KarelvanSteenhoven I think your followers will enjoy a lot the discussion, let us see what you talk about. I think this is very nice that Mollenhauer is willing to consider your positive criticism. Maybe it will do that Yamaha and others try it as well. Congratulations on the video. You made us think and dream with the new generation of recorders.

[@alancantor9437]

The longer I spend learning to squeeze musically-interesting sounds from the recorder, the more I wish it was easier to vary sound colour, play louder and softer, play 3rd octave notes, and be heard when playing with modern instruments. I would be very interested to try a recorder that offers more expressive possibilities than the Baroque model. On the other hand, I appreciate that the recorder is unique among woodwind instruments: it has NO moving parts. The performer uses their entire body to create a wide range of musical effects: breath, mouth, fingers, angle, posture, etc. To me, this simplicity betokens design elegance. The master instrument builders of 300 years ago appear to have come close to optimizing the zero-moving part woodwind, an impressive achievement for an instrument with a chromatic range of two octaves and a fourth, give or take a note or two. Modern builders of baroque-style recorders make brilliant instruments, but they do not appear to have significantly updated the basic design. I hope more will take liberties with the basic design to create viable, modern recorders, by for example, adding holes and keys, re-imagining the share of the bore and windway, experimenting with different materials (e.g., metal, resin, plywood), incorporating electronic paraphernalia directly into the windway, and who know what else!

[@dhu2056]

Except that the xiao and shakuhachi have at least 3 octaves and have no moving parts

[@LarryShone]

There are quite a few modern recorders available now with extra keys and other innovations, the Eagle Recorder, the Mollenhauer Elody etc. But I am not interested in modern or contemporary music for recorder. It is often atonal and too austere. I prefer music of the Renaissance and earlier. I do like early jazz though, and that is quite possible on the recorder we now have.

[@thpeti]

And don't forget the baroque era! 20th century "classical" music is atonal, and - excluding few expections - unlistenable for me. Boehm-like keying for the recorder - no thanks. I've played the clarinet, and I always messed up with the keying. I've practiced some clarinet etudes on my recorder to save my mouth from the reed squeeze - only the range was a problem, not the chromatic scales. Well, for the recorder, You have to do some tricks when too many sharps showing up in the piece, but it can be done. It's just a challenge. But atonal pieces, weird keys (like fis-minor) must be avoided, or another recorder can be used, like a voice flute in D to deal with the sharp keys... My theory of music history is that the music was developing until J.S.Bach, then a slow deceasing happened, with some sparkling stars, like Mozart or Beethoven, then the decline accelerated. The unlistenability began with Richard Strauss, then continued with Bartok, and in the 20th century almost only the jazz and the pop music is listenable. (For me). I love playing baroque music on my recorder, and I've deceided to learn to play the oboe. (But the baroque version).

[@LarryShone]

@@thpeti I'd just love a recorder with all the keys a clarinet has

[@hvadhvem6138]

I can see a C# key on the Helder Alto recorder, is this one of your experiments like the extra hole you drilled, or have you had this key setup by a professional maker? I contacted Mollenhauer and they do not offer an extra C# key unfortunately… I think it would greatly enhance the C# in the second register!

[@celadonk]

Great video. What is the piece at the very beginning?

[@victorhugo1819]

I think that the Helder Evo Tenor is the closest model that we have of this...

[@UrbanElectronicMusic]

Hello. At 5:46 you mention drilling an extra hole in your recorder. What does it do? Do you consider this experiment a success? Thanks.

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

William Harrington Yes it was a succes! Several new options for fingerings in the high registers and a beautiful sounding c# are the most important additions. And of course a simple and very good sounding trill c-D flat

[@cesarvidelac]

Michael Shonle E-Corder (electronic recorder) and Mollenhauer Helder Evo Tenor. Would be interesting if you can make a review of them, I'd like to hear your opinion about them :)

[@Desmond4052]

Hi Karel, what do you think of the latest Evo Tenor recorder developed by Mollenhauer in collaboration with Susanne Frohlich?

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

Hi Desmond, yes, that is a great recorder with a lot of potential.

[@Desmond4052]

@@KarelvanSteenhoven just bought it !

[@mattrn58]

What do you think of theMollenhauer Modern recorder? Does it meet the parameters you have set for a modern instrument?

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

I am looking for would be a mixture of eagle/helder/tarasov/and von Huene tenor design… and absolutely with a key for finger 8 (g# sharp on c instruments or c# on f instruments). This workless finger of the left Hand, should be involved in recorder playing already on childrens instruments, so that this new basic element can be educated and trained as part of the motorical skills of young recorder players. So a Helder Alto with a little wider bore or an eagle alto with a little more narrow bore would be a good step in the direction I would think the recorder has to develop to. Cooperation between all recorder makers is of major importance. No one can make the modern recorder on his own.

[@Lady_Papillon]

Matt Chikudo Moore But what if you recorder players take back the recorder from children? Your reputation would change you wouldn't be seen as a "kid instrument" anymore! Instead of teaching the children about it you should keep it to yourselves!

[@frannbug]

ThatFluteGuy ! The children at my school learn all the other woodwind - why deny them the recorder? They just need to see professional players and highly skilled amateurs such as those who have featured in the BBC's Young Musician of the Year competition in the last few years, foe example.

[@juliaziegler4323]

a modern recorder will be so nice!!!!!!!

[@mollenhauer-blockfloeten]

players of modern recorders would be even nicer!!!!

[@Blokfluitgroep]

Maybe try an Eagle or an Helder recorder?

[@Desmond4052]

Arnfred Strathmann made a recorder with all the modern keys like a saxophone. It's a bit sad that such recorder have not been more popular.

[@Educciman]

Vor ca. 30 Jahren habe ich bereits als Endorser für STRATHMANN auf der Frankfurter Messe gearbeitet und die Flöte vorgestellt. Dieses Instrument wurde allerdings von der Blockflötengemeinde seinerzeit abgelehnt. Eventuell war es einfach zu früh die Blockflöte in Karels Sinn weiter zu entwickeln. Meine eigenen Ideen zu diesem Thema habe ich schon öfter in diversen Videos hier auf KZbin zur Diskussion gestellt. Ich freue mich über die Maßen, dass Meister Karel von Steenhoven sich auch um eine progressive Instrumentenentwicklung für die Blockflöte stark macht - Danke dafür, großartig. Hier ein sample: kzbin.info/www/bejne/laebk2tqm7qNjLs......Beste Grüße und viel Spass, Martin Niethammer.

[@midnightmoth1]

​​@@Educciman Hi, I know it's been a while since you commented. The video you linked is not available. And I think that's a real shame 😓 because I really want to learn more about any developments happening in the recorder world. Is there a way to maybe reupload the original or link to a source outside of KZbin so we could hear it?

[@marshallee]

​@@midnightmoth1 for me is also sad that we can only find one image of the instrument in the internet and it is a low quality one. I'm intrigued be how it work or sound. Also I'm not surprised such instrument was rejected by the recorder community, the majority of them are very conservative.

[@OpenmusicEs]

A very interesting video. But I still do not understand why the Helder/Mollenhauer is not fitted with a proper bell key. Nobody wants to use the knee on a fully keyed instrument!! And definitely we can not get rid of using the bell hole for some notes and or effects. Hope the second part is released soon, great job!! Thanks Karel :)

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

You are absolutely right. Many people are waiting for new developments here and I am one of them. And of course not only for the Helder flutes, but also for all other so called modern recorders. Hopefully this video can be of help in this respect.

[@mollenhauer-blockfloeten]

Could you please tell us for what kind of extra notes you would need a bell key on a Helder recorder? Remember that no other modern woodwind instrument has something like a bell key. Thanks in advance!

[@OpenmusicEs]

I do not have a Helder but I think you could enlighten yourself with the article by Susanne Frölich about the Helder. This is the part that concerns your question: "The third octave is played completely without closing the bottom hole - but of course you can still use fingerings with closed bottom hole (some of them work even better and are better in tune then. This is also the reason why Johannes Fischer did ask for a stopped foot joint with an extra bottom key at the side)." Thanks!Mollenhauer-Blockfloeten

[@mollenhauer-blockfloeten]

Sure, you could add a bell key to any kind of recorder: to a renaissance recorder, to a baroque recorder, to a romantic recorder, to a modern recorder. It will always deliver more possibilities to any of these instruments. However, a bell key has not become a standard on any of these, so that is why it is and so far remains an optional feature. As we have made the Helder instruments played by Susanne Fröhlich and Johannes Fischer, and as we also have provided all of their special features, it is logic that we are in a steady discussion with these and other artists. Please note that we deliver instruments according to the demand of the players: The majority of performers is still happy with the standard models. On special request we try to provide instruments with additional feature, if a realization of these features is possible and affordable. You are cordialy invited to get a Helder instrument for a personal expansion of your individual musical demands.

[@LarryShone]

Bell key is one addition that I would recommend all recorders have.

[@millennial8441]

You said a very interesting thing about the recorder being losted itself on past time. It is hard to play modern and contemporary music on recorder. Even on extended techniques we miss a perfect legato on high register and the very poor dynamic range. On treble recorder it is completeçy hard to do F#6 with no using knees to cover the bell hole. It is ridiculous doing that. It is obvious, for instance, that make an arrangement of Webern's music for recorder group is a very awkward job because his music needs a very wide dynamic range (pppp into ffff). Olivier Messian, Pierre Boulez, Karheinz Stockhausen and another modern/contemporary composers did not feel the willing to compose for recorder because the musical language of 20th/21th. Cs. was very developed and mechanical limitations of recorder never was crossed beyond Baroque Age. I say it is a very pity because I was a pianist and studied Composition. But, now, I am a recorder student and I love modern and contemporary music, mainly twelve-tone and free atonality music. There is no way to get a more wide dynamic range...

[@midnightmoth1]

The sole fact that in this day and age, we've got an established performer, educator & composer like Karel and more people in the comments question the nature of his argument and approach it with a hive mentality and a sense of conservatism and tradition, as opposed to practicality and cleverness, is concerning to me even as a flute player, and I believe to be a reason as to why the recorder "community" isn't recognized/respected by the general "community" of musicians and the general public. You are all so caught up in keeping the recorder "pure, organic and simple" that you dare not think of the possibilities that could be had through the development of a more ergonomic, standardized system. In my honest opinion, I want the recorder to be in the orchestra, I want it to be another choice of instrument that people can play and enjoy and offer reverance too (like they do with traditional instruments like the Chinese dizi/ditsu, the Japanese koto, the Puerto Rican cuatro, the Andean quena, the Turkish ney, etc), instead of seeing as a squeaky toy that you play in school and its only purpose is to "get you started" so you then can move into a "real instrument". And I'm not saying that you should REPLACE the baroque/renaissance model recoders with BULKY, HEAVY, LOUD, fully KEYED instruments; actually I would want both to be a possibility, just like in the traverse flute world where you've got student models and professional models but also simple system conical flutes, Renaissance instruments, baroque instruments. Recorders could be just like that, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regarding the baroque/renaissance models has to change. Everyone can have what they want, everyone can win.

[@marshallee]

I completely agree with you

[@elijaguy]

The solution looks simple to me. Adjust a recorder head to an oboe body, and you get the sound and breathing technique of the recorder with the key system of the modern oboe. Should be quite simple to achieve.

[@margiewinslow872]

Please, someone show how to do this. I have despaired of my inability to make good oboe reeds. A recorder block would be fun to try!

[@marshallee]

An amazing idea but maybe it should have a wider bore because the moder oboe have a very narrow one. The key system of the oboe and tone holes makes a lot of sense in the recorder because it doesn't use a boehm system

[@DellaStreet123]

I think an octave key would be a great. And how about some trill keys? And if we had a recorder with dynamic volume control (which might put the pinkie of the upper hand to use) it would be superior in that respect to many other instruments.

[@MisterDavidBell]

What song is playing at the end? It's gorgeous. Great vid too

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

It is „Seascapes“ composed by William Alwyn for Soprano Voice, Treble Recorder and Piano (Forsyth Publications).

[@MisterDavidBell]

Karel van Steenhoven thankyou so much :)

[@marshallee]

This is what I've been thinking from a long time. Recorder players are so stuck in the baroque period that they not completely about the lack of possibilities the the "modern" Recorder has. They start making excuses for the lack of keys. The instrument has such a beautiful tone and is a shame that when the recorder was revived they completely forgot about all the innovations of the romantic period. The recorder should have been like the oboe in terms of keywork today but a least we have the evo tenor today with uses a few of thoae innovations but is sad that the model is not popular due to the very high price and because is aimed to professionals that only play baroque music and are stuck with their baroque looking instruments. TL;DR: all those reasons is why I started to modify recorders and adding keys and fingerholes to make something like the romantic period recorders

[@lauraragger9457]

What is the name of the piece played at the end?

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

It is "Seascapes" by William Alwyn, for Soprano, Treble recorder and Piano, Published 1985 by Forsyth

[@lauraragger9457]

Karel van Steenhoven Thank you very much!

[@ruaraidhwishart5709]

Great video. I'm curious why you don't suggest using different materials to make the body of the instrument. Flutes are now made of metal. Perhaps the same could be done with recorders although it would substantially change the quality of sound. I support what you're suggesting, and would play a modern recorder if given the chance.

[@DellaStreet123]

I think if wood is good for modern oboes, clarinets and piccolos, it should be also good for a modern recorder. Long flutes were also made from wood well into the 20th century, and some flute makers offer custom-made wooden flutes. Theobald Böhm's concept of the ideal flute consisted of a metal body but a wooden head.

[@EveryGoodBoyDoesFine]

I would start with an octave key and a wider bore. I would ask Yamaha or Aulos to do a plastic version. This would help the recorder play and blend with modern instruments. This would make the recorder more widely affordable and thus accessible. This might bring back the much ridiculed recorder. Good instruments played poorly by children. People get confused and say it is a bad instrument.

[@Desmond4052]

Hi Chris are you working on the project now? As a Clarinet/ Oboe/ Flute player, I am also obsessed with the idea of a modern recorder with elaborate key systems like that of the modern woodwind instruments. Unfortunately I don't have the manufacturing techniques to pull this off!

[@midnightmoth1]

​@@Desmond4052 I second this. Are you working on it, stil?

[@marshallee]

​@@midnightmoth1 I'm quite obsessed with the idea too to the point I modified my pastic yamaha tenor recorder that now has a few keys from a clarinet, but I'm stuck in the project because I don't know were to locate an octave hole. Do I need to follow the dame as the moder oboe? Or the saxophone? I need to keep doing my research. The oboe makes more sense because it has two octave keys or even three

[@paulcaswell2813]

The fiddle was developed in the mid 16th century. Although much changed as far as internals, fingerboard and neck are concerned, the basic instrument, as developed by Tieffenbrucker and Andreas Amati, still lives on. If it can play anything from Gabrieli to Pag, and though to todays uncomposers, it surely says much. This is the same thinking that led, in the late 19th century and through to the 1950s, to the belief that cast-iron frames, heavy stringing, and multiple pedals were a logical improvement on the 17th-18th century harpsichord. Of course, we now know that the instrument of Ruckers, Hemsch, and Kirckman were perfected instruments in their own right. I suspect the same is the case with the recorder...

[@TarikSM1]

Nice video! Where i find photos and some text about the recorder in 2:41?

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

Dear Tárik, I think you mean this instrument: a cskan-recorder probably made by Ziegler. More info on: www.loc.gov/item/dcmflute.0918/

[@Recorder-e3e]

Pienso que el autor de este video está equivocado, ya que actualmente se ejecutan piezas contemporáneas con flautas dulces barrocas, lográndose múltiples efectos acústicos muy raros, como por ejemplo la pieza Gesti de Berio.

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

alfredo mato Thank you for this point of view. May be you could have a look at my latest publication of my 12 Songs for recorder and piano, en.schott-music.com/shop/12-lieder-ohne-worte-no333301.html?SID=6mhb95905ej2do155mbnfp9601 to understand my ideas a little bit better. And please realize that Gesti by Berio is more then 50 years old, so it is not really contemporary music of our days and is not the kind of music we need another kind of recorder for.

[@proserpina4448]

I never played a modern recorder, but yes, I believe that variations in intonation and dynamics are easier to play on modern recorders. On the other hand these alterings will change the sound and this is part of what I like so much about baroque recorders. Also I do not agree with this video's point, that a barock recorder is obsolete. The recorder is not a symphony orchestra instrument, but that does not mean it is less good as I feel the video states. Recorders and oboes or clarinets simply have different kinds of use, which does not have to bad. Over this baroque recorders, too, are incredibly versatile: you can play like everything from medieval to contempory music.

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

Dear Proserpina, yes I totally agree with you on all your points! And of course you can play any kind of music on any kind of recorder as long as you love that particular sound and playing possibilities. But the fact, that all the different recorders that were made through the ages - among which our beloved baroque recorder - were made to be especially very much suited for the music of their own time still counts. So my disappointment comes from the fact, that today almost no recorder maker takes the time to develop a recorder for our time period . That is why the building principles of the modern recorders we have today are still inferior to the quality of other modern wind instruments. And I think it is really a bad thing for any instrument: not to have - next to all the other historical versions - a good quality version of its own time. Best wishes, Karel

[@gamhazell]

Very very interesting

[@idraote]

Modern recorders already exist. They are nice to look at with all those shiny new keys and they sound nice. Problem is, they sound just like a modern transverse flute. There is no need for modern recorders as the transverse flute essentially is the modern recorder.

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

Are you familiair with this test in which the attack, the tone development and the ending of the tones of all kinds of instruments is taken away? Having only the pure sound vibrations makes most instruments of a certain period sound exactly the same! So what is interesting is to find out what makes the oboe different from the clarinet and what makes a violin different from a flute. When you really think of these questions, than you will find great opportunities for the recorder in a modern soundscape together with other modern instruments. Then you will enter the super inspiring world of renewal, experiment and establishment. Then you will be able to give really interesting advise to recorder makers and composers. So start hearing, listening, trying, with all the playing possibilities you have and discover what a recorder really is about. What makes a recorder a recorder and why should we need a member of that family in the modern-classical wind group? You only can talk about this issue when you give your best shot and think as openly as you can involving all the knowledge you have about instrumentation, rhetoric, composition style and instrumental playing technique. Looking forward to your discoveries. Best wishes, Karel van Steenhoven

[@idraote]

You could have simply said you disagree with me. Besides you're writing all these words to someone who can distinguish the sound of a violin with modern strings from the sound of a violin with gut strings. One can always learn more, of course. Everyone, not just me. Have a nice discovering time yourself.

[@EveryGoodBoyDoesFine]

Oh and I forgot if I had even a little woodworking skill I would be experimenting on making a modern recorder myself. An

[@alexalestareon695]

I think he just wants a keyed recorder.

[@KarelvanSteenhoven]

Just like there are many different types and qualities of recorders without keys (built from the middle ages til today), there are many types and qualities in the keyed recorders (built from the early renaissance till today). So it clearly is not the only thing people are interested in in a recorder if there are keys on it or not. An instrument has to fit the sounddesign of the period and the music it wants to act in. And this of course involves all characteristics of the instrument.

[@LarryShone]

Also if you want to play contemporary music there are plenty of EWIs out there. Keep the baroque recorder as a baroque recorder. It should not be allowed to be replaced by modern instruments.

[@nick.3455]

Interesting

[@orthohawk1026]

No. We don't need to "modernize" the recorder. What we need is composers who are willing to compose with the limitations of the recorder in mind. I mean, no composer would dream of putting an G3 in a piece for an oboe.

[@midnightmoth1]

Actually, they would. I've heard of flute pieces that ask the player to (no joke) trill between a B3 and a C4. Composers of the 21st century literally do not care about "limitations", that's why, instruments are constantly toyed with and put to the test constantly. As long as their music stays within the range of the instrument, they don't care. Therefore, realistically (no offense) I don't think that's ever going to happen.

[@carmentroncosocaceres3319]

Thank you for your video and research into modern recorders, Karel. I also visited www.flutessence.de

[@MaoRatto]

The only real Recorders I notice that seem to have the innovations are 1. Alto-Tenor instruments or 2. The extra keys going on with Contrabasses by Paetzold which seems to be the " most modern ", but most ugly one.

[@danietclakos332]

Concept of keys isn t the such, it just a responce to orchestra demand

[@damianc80]

You know why it hasn’t changed... it isn’t an orchestral instrument and the others are.