The MJCast 139: Invincible 20 Roundtable

Released in 2001, Invincible was the seventh adult, solo studio album from Michael Jackson. Having released HIStory and Blood on the Dance Floor in uncharacteristically quick succession, Jackson had then largely retreated from the limelight for four years, appearing only at a handful of awards ceremonies and benefit concerts between 1998 and 2001.
Anticipation in the fan community was high. Appearing at the World Music Awards in 2000, to be honoured for his unparalleled success in the music industry, Jackson had teased in his acceptance speech: “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.” But whether the eventual album lived up to Jackson’s hype has split fans for the past two decades.
Invincible would be released in 2001 to a lukewarm critical reception, with many reviewers saying the man dubbed the King of Pop for his trendsetting career was now reduced to following trends instead, bringing in younger artists and lending his vocals to their work. With just two entirely self-penned songs on the 16-track album, Jackson seemed to be something of a passenger on his own album.
With his physical appearance attracting more interest than his art, and coverage of the album’s release unfortunately coinciding with the biggest news event of the century - the 9/11 terror attacks - the album charted well upon release but quickly sank, receiving little promotion from either Jackson or his record label.
By summer 2002, artist and label were locked in a vicious battle, with Jackson accusing Sony of sabotaging the project as part of a racist conspiracy, and the label countering that Jackson’s career had been killed by allegations of child molestation.
So what is Invincible’s true place in Jackson’s legacy? Did it deserve the critical pasting it received? Have the songs aged well? Would they have fared better if they had been released at a different time? In what is bound to be one of the most controversial episodes in this podcast’s history, our panellists (Jamon Bull, Shawn Shackelford, James Alay, John Cameron and Charles Thomson) ask and answer these questions, and many more.
This episode was edited by Jamon Bull.
If you have feedback on this Michael Jackson podcast episode, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at [e-mail] or find the links to our many social networks on www.themjcast.com. Keep Michaeling!

[@SirKingswillStJohns]

Unbreakable was it for me. That was the hit single to break other hit singles that year that never happened. It's sad to hear that MJ was going through all this stress during this time, but as seemingly problematic as Invincible turned out to be, it was, and still is a good MJ album regardless.

[@gerrilanter1965]

I love it and listen to this album all the time. I especially love the song Unbreakable. He told us all we need to know in his lyrics. I feel for Michael and admire his strength so much!

[@dsu9659]

This the Way Charles always talked about Michael Jackson, going back to the days when he ran a website. He was always very negative and critical. Then when he died he slightly changed his tune.

[@virgilblaze9090]

I still have all 5 colours on CD and are still proudly displayed to this day 😂 Great discussion!

[@bintube5269]

Charles was actually wrong in thinking that Michael Jackson lead singles always go to #1. In the UK, the lead single from Invincible did better on the chart than the lead singles from Off the Wall, Thriller, and History. Only the lead singles from Bad and Dangerous went to #1. (And Blood on the Dancefloor)

[@kellaaaaa]

Yeah Charles really is saying some awful stuff. Invincible is awesome.

[@Pageofpage54]

KING OF POP MICHAEL JACKSON FOREVER BILLION TIMES INNOCENT We cannot show another artist equal to King of Pop Michael Jackson with his dances, music, songs, lyrics, clips, costumes, vision.The only icon whose songs never get old.My family also had listened to Michael Jackson songs, and I listened to the same songs as if they were composed today.Even this example is proof that he is a true icon, one big star of all time.💙💚💜💖🥇💎🕴🏿👑🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿💎💎💎💎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑

[@robindore9582]

Thanks for your time and info. Mjj forever 🤴🏽

[@Gkt77]

"Invincible" is my favourite MJ album!!!!!!! Heaven Can wait is fire ✌️♥️👏👑💯💃

[@rednebula4135]

Mm, Heaven Can Wait. Those vocals are delicious. I love Invincible. It's brilliant.

[@John3v8]

If I were forced at gunpoint to pick a favourite MJ song, it would be HCW .... I think? ✌️♥️👏👑💯💃

[@carolannmontebello7827]

My favorites from invincible are break of dawn, whatever happens, Butterflies, don’t walk away , and unbreakable .

[@danjab64]

I doubt Michael gave Sony mediocre material on purpose.. He wouldn’t put his name against a product he felt was crap.

[@crazyflako3141]

I agree 💯 good point game

[@Moonwalkerjj]

Charlie was way over the line on some of his commentary on this podcast and some of the other podcasts. I’m for objective criticisms of MJ and his choices, but Charlie was way too personal and negative.

[@kellaaaaa]

Yeah he seemed not so objective and harsh.

[@humanr.e8529]

It made me feel icky

[@rouni5498]

I love MJ. I currently study in a public college and try to live with 400 euros a month. As anyone understands i m not in a position to buy books or pay for movies and docs so I listen to podcasts like this trying to be more informed about everything MJ. So, as a suggestion I would like to say that it would be more informative instead saying "as we know MJ did this and that" to say "as we know form this source MJ did this and that". That, only if you can and like to help out people like me. I tottaly understand that all of us don't have to agree on everything but I do have a couple of questions though. Why you are always seem really convinced about "stuff" people have spilled out and why do you believe them? How come that you seem to buy anything anyone has to say about him now? Why don't you take under consideration the well known fact that he showed a different face with different people? Them stating that they were very close or had an understanding is only the one point of view. Unfortunately we won't know the other but that doen't mean that we should blindly believe anything said in a book or an inteview even if it comes out as possitive or supportive. I mean even if all those people are saying the truth we must remember that it's their truth. Why do you carry on a conversation stating the one moment that "he actually was pressured to deliver" and the next "the album seems rushed"? Finally and most importantly, I do understand that as much as we may not admit it publicly, beauty is power and we like to see people that "pleases the eye". As a person still suffering from two different autoimmune diseases that have severely affected my looks and knowing the struggle one goes through trying to "cover things up" and the mental struggle that goes with it. NOT REALLY KNOWING what was happening with his clinical state except people coming out after his death stating stuff here and there and his mental struggle? Again, why sould we believe them? And having this conversation on 2022? After anyone can even see this poor man's autopsy pictures? I think you should stop bringing this up having an opinion about it especially the harsh way you do. You have to accept that you don't really know too. Thanks for everything else.

[@nelumsooriampola]

@ ROUNI , What a truthful and beautiful comment!? I totally agree with you, you understand Michael better than these people! Because you are going through the same auto immune disease Michael suffered through out his life, Im very sorry for what you had to go through and I wish you the best in everything, these poeple who talk ill about him and his appearance never even met him, they critizise him by reading other poeple's books! They don't have empathy and Don care what he had to go through in terms of his medical problems, family problems , problems of his career and media, he said it himself in his own words " poeple talk about me but they don't even know me" by the way " invincible " album is one of my all time favorite albums! Take care, love and blessings !

[@rouni5498]

@@nelumsooriampolaI m glad you liked my answer and thank you, but I m not gonna sit here pretending I understand Michael because my point is that nobody does. Maybe I do understand some small aspects of him better than other people do.

[@nelumsooriampola]

@@rouni5498 yes, I totally agree with you, no one understands a person 100% but we all have some understanding as you said definitely better than these poeple who speak ill about him so unfairly as if they knew him personally, I did lot of research of Michael, anything out there that I can access, there are so many legitimate facts you can find online about him, also about his music and his appearance you Don't need these poeple to tell you what is good and what is not good, these are their own opinions , we have our own eyes and ears, invincible album for me is one of the best and beautiful albums of Michael, thank you for replying to me, take care .

[@rouni5498]

@@nelumsooriampola Thank you for taking the time to talk to me and read my coment. Also thank you for understanding what i m trying to say. I agree, I love invincible album as much as the rest of them. Take care, peace

[@rednebula4135]

Well said, Rouni. You have made some excellent points here. Also, kind wishes for some stability with your health in 2022.

[@parmym.7177]

I really love the Invincible album! I thought Michael sounded great vocally. But I think he didn't want to put his full heart and soul in it because of his problems with Sony. I really wish some of the songs on the Escape album were on Invincible, like: Chicago, Slave To The Rythm, Blue Gangster, Place With No Name and my favourite: We've Had Enough. I actually like 2000 Watts too. As it was his last album, it is really precious to me for that reason also.

[@GoneWithTheScript]

Um what the hell, this Charles Thomson guy was completely disrespectful come on

[@genestacoleman2754]

Facts what a shame 😭💔

[@thecollector4332]

Charlie is one of the few journalists that has publicly defended Michael since his passing. Don’t trash him just because he didn’t like invincible.

[@mrexecutive]

@@thecollector4332Nobody cares. That doesn’t excuse his behavior

[@michaeljacksonerd]

I have 5 copies of all 5 colors

[@mechajay3358]

I've learned to take Charlie's critiques on music with a bit of grain of salt.

[@gerrilanter1965]

I've been listening to over 30 minutes of how bad MJ "looked". Why isn't anyone talking about the effects of lupus AND vitiligo on his skin? How much of his problems were attempts to deal with his skin diseases? Poor dude. 😰😭😭😭

[@richardkovacs2006]

I sooo agree: MJ was such a strong person. He really is a role model when it comes to his inner strength. He was through SO MUCH. Yet he went out, even when he wanted to just hide away. It's not just surgeries/accisents (weight loss... or gain...) Maria Callas couldn't come back after a hiatus... even a longer hiatus can ruin the voice. Another thought: I believe MJ had to come to terms with religion (which he didn't touch on Bad. I always felt Will you be there (choosing Beethoven IX's that particular part with that particular lyrics as the intro to Will you be there - which is btw right before Ode to Joy in the IX) and then Keep the faith were circling around his finding a conclusion with his faith. I might be wrong. But I think religiin and his faith had a huge inpact on his life - and leaving JWs (after going out of his way to abide all the rules they demanded of him).

[@richardkovacs2006]

I remember it was announced MJ would.be there at MTV because he would be getting the artist of the millenium award. In fact MTV had it on its page for a whole day that Mj got that award - whole the media started to mock him, that he didn't even get an award. After a day MTV took that news down and went with the rest of the media. It was a firty game. And the fact they got Britney take part in it.... whoa.

[@gerrilanter1965]

@@richardkovacs2006 😡I'm trying to get to the bottom of this story. Do you mean MTV did intentionally deceive MJ? If so, they deserve hell. I saw a video about it, I don't know, there was a cake, it's just a confusing video because it wasn't the source video. Was it on his birthday? I don't even trust news articles at this point.

[@sussh9635]

If You Want To Listen To MJ Talk About The Invincible Album Then Watch: Michael Jackson - Rolling Stones Interview 2001 Fun Facts From The Interview: Mj's 3 Favourite Songs On The Invincible Album: Unbreakable, Speechless and The Lost Children. The Most Relatable Song On The Invincible Album: Unbreakable

[@humanr.e8529]

The commentary here was giving now that's he's been gone over a decade I can express how I really feel. Smh. I hate this episode. As an Mj fan I wasn't focusing on his face I just saw my hero. Loved the album and still love the album I got it Christmas 2001 wish they would've put Unbreakable out. Only songs I didn't listen to on repeat was the lost children everything else was fire

[@TerraRyzinglives]

If Mike had a video with Biggie footage and P Diddy in there in 2001 it would have been popular

[@AmericanNope]

Whatever happens, unbreakable, butterflies, break of dawn are all good maybe even great songs. They lack the magic that made so many of MJ s hits but it’s hard to capture lightning in a bottle so many times. From off the wall to dangerous MJ had some timeless hits. It’s not realistic to think he could keep doing at that level.

[@mrexecutive]

MJ ALWAYS had timeless hits. Before Off the wall and after dangerous. Did you just want to hear yourself talk?

[@SirKingswillStJohns]

"Poor imitation of a BSB song"? What? As a BSB fan as well as the biggest MJ fan, I totally resent that comment. What an awful thing to say about a song, especially when you compare it to other songs from that period! Damn!

[@laurkanwalton5766]

Love, Ur uploads and support for MJ also every video I learn something new thank u my friends God bless 🙏♥️🌠🙂

[@nelumsooriampola]

I am a life long Mj fan and I'm not looking through rose tinted glasses! I totally disagree with everything Charles said, invincible album is one of my favorite Michael albums, like all his albums Michael poured his heart and soul to this album, Songs like' break of dawn ' 'Speechless ' ' you rock my world ' ' Don't walk away ' ' unbreakable ' ' one more chance ' are my most favorite songs of all time! Also Don't forget they closed times Square for the 1st time when Michael did the signing for 'Invincible ' album, Im not looking through rose tinted glasses but Michael looked absolutely stunning that day! Mj cast, I used to enjoy your podcast but to tell you the truth I didn't enjoy this one and the previous one and you know why!

[@richardkovacs2006]

Break of Dawn is my absolute fav from this album and his sexiest song (yes, more like In the Closet. Well. Most of the time. 😁)

[@nelumsooriampola]

@@richardkovacs2006 hi Richard, you've spoken my mind ,yes! 'Break of dawn ' is one of my most favorite songs, yes ! I agree It reminds me of ' in the closet ' ❤🙏👑👍✌🦋🌻

[@jarrettcone8949]

I agree It's sold 13 million

[@nelumsooriampola]

@@jarrettcone8949 yes, exactly!

[@rednebula4135]

@@nelumsooriampola Break of Dawn is awesome!

[@italiantogoofficial1405]

I love “Speechless”, “Invincible” is an amazing album. Love and blessings to all the fans all over the world 😘😘😘😘

[@kellaaaaa]

Wow this main dude really is throwing some shade on MJ and invincible. Not super objective but there are some nice factoids.

[@markwhyte7822]

Wrong about Mottola, ask his ex wife

[@crazyflako3141]

Best album ever

[@raineyj560]

Butterflies is my favorite MJ song outta all of them!!!

[@kellaaaaa]

Omg same!!!

[@mrexecutive]

Taste! Same

[@richardkovacs2006]

I don't think that the diamonds and pearls line is a reference to Prince, or if it is, it's kind of an attempt to kick Prince in the butt,(taken the context of it within the song), which I don't think MJ would have done, esp not at this point of his (and Prince's) career. As for what Charles claiming that MJ took credit of full songs written by others: which ones? Because the chords on the bridge in Don't stop doesn't make it Greg's song. And the Stranger in Moscow story is so bogus (I've read and heard several versions from Brad Buxer's own mouth and as time went by the fish he caught got bigger and bigger...) it shouldn't make one doubt MJs creativity and credit. Apart from this, Charles' dislike of Invincible is kind of funny - even though he sometines rationalizes his dislike (and ruin his own argument through it), still funny. Cruel, but funny. I must add I'm just halfway in... so I might change my mind by the end.

[@nelumsooriampola]

Hi Richard, I totally agree, I respect other people's opinions and fair criticism but Charles was not fair at all, Michael was a brilliant song writer, he wrote hundreds of songs just for one album and its a joke if anyone says he put his name on other poeple 's songs! The songs Michael wrote are the most beautiful ,meaningful and timeless songs! Its so unfortunate that Charles sounds cruel and a bully! I'm so disappointed in him on this and the previous episode.

[@youcanneverkillmichaeljack5222]

1003 AWARDS WİNNER KING OF POP MICHAEL JACKSON IS FOREVER BILLION TIMES INNOCENT 🎩🎩🎩🌏🌏🌏👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑 👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑 We cannot show another artist equal to King of Pop Michael Jackson with his dances, music, songs, lyrics, clips, costumes, vision.The only icon whose songs never get old.My family also had listened to Michael Jackson songs, and I listened to the same songs as if they were composed today.Even this example is proof that he is a true icon, one big star of all time.💙💚💜💖🥇💎🕴🏿👑🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿💎💎💎💎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑

[@gerrilanter1965]

❤ 🎵 Michael is magic 🎵 ❤ I love the album and listen to it all the time. I especially love the song Unbreakable. He told us all we need to know in his lyrics. 😥I feel for Michael and admire his 👊🏽strength so much! He was a FIGHTER in the right way. None of us could have lived through what he did and still be a beautiful creator!❤

[@TheArcoiris12]

I love Invincible. Like other of his albums, not all the song are favorites, but I like more this one than Off the wall or even Thriller. Compare it to some of the music nowadays...... It's still much better than most new releases. Love your podcast 💓

[@IsaMP-c5b]

Really???? So much criticism??? And you are mj fans??? Who listen this thinks that he was bad. After all he had passed in his life??? Why he have to be perfect in everythink?? Even Freddie mercury who had a great voice dont sing always like we expect and have great musics in all his records. For me are the 2 most great singers. No one can be compared to Michael or Freddie. And i am just talking about their voice Your laughing...too bad 😔

[@genestacoleman2754]

DANG CHARLES ARE YOU IN A BAD MOOD OMG !!!!!😦🤔OH GEEZ

[@nelumsooriampola]

Hi Genesta, I think there's something wrong with Charles not Michael. May be he is talking behalf of Sony!

[@genestacoleman2754]

@@nelumsooriampola hello moonwalk fam how are you YES indeed Charles is a Tripp happy new year to you and your family 🎈🎆🍾💞

[@nelumsooriampola]

@@genestacoleman2754 hi Genesta, my moonwalker friend, yes! I totally agree! Charles is a Tripp! Happy and healthy new year to you and family, love and blessings ❤ 🙏👑👍✌🦋🌻

[@raineyj560]

Yea a little too much on MJ's look, it seems like Charles was waiting for a moment to speak about this, yes I know he's a reg on MJ Cast

[@Swat-ed5bt]

Michael forever ❤️🤩

[@darrengeorgetown6758]

Charles T was a breath of fresh air on this. I have no use for those that can praise MJ during this time. The work was subpar, he looked terrible and he was very sick in ways we don't really know. To pretend he wasn't is dillusional and makes MJ fans look ridiculous and childish. Open debate and nuance is so refreshing. Great listen

[@raineyj560]

As a fan, I can agree but at the book signing the reasons fans felt he looked sexy was because he did have a little weight on him, the lavender shirt black pants looked hot on him . I never liked his nose job and understand he put the cream because of the vitiligo but that MJ was never my favorite look, mine was teen Mike and right after Billie Jean.

[@CaptainEO]

FACTS!

[@annastashasuraji2075]

Wow you guys are young! My first album was Bad, I feel old now 😅

[@michellemarchiano9878]

2:20...yes. u cannot create when u r being forced to. 💔

[@GoneWithTheScript]

Yea Charles is completely disrespectful what On earth is this? He’s completely slandering Michael the whole time and you just let him

[@robbiegibson5005]

Charles is not 'slandering' Michael Jackson. He is criticising Invincible itself, the album which Michael had comparatively little to do with. Having an opinion on a product is not 'slander'.

[@genestacoleman2754]

Charles is going in at Michael like his pissed off at him Charles is so angry

[@richardkovacs2006]

@@genestacoleman2754 i don't think he is angry with MJ, but FOR MJ. He basically says sony should have taken care more of him instead of pushing him out in the public in such a bad shape. In fact the reaction to MJs appearance has helped the 2003 trial. People's unease with him directly fuelled into a horrifying (and sinplifying) explantion: "oh, so he's a horrible person and this is what has grown on his looks" The ancient old Faust/dorian grey/phantom of the opera legend in its darkest form. Just talk to massive believers of his guilt: many is just about how MJ looks - and draw the conclusion. Yes, people can be that stupid.

[@richardkovacs2006]

Hin saying MJ was in bad shape is facing reality. He did look bad - and after beibg away from the public for a long time it was shocking to many. I never really cared about his looks specifically, (not even with his skintone getting lighter - I always thought there's a logical explanation for that, well before he talked about vitiligo), but his looks when he went to Times Square, he looked like as if he had a 2 yr long tour behind him and got into a huge accident. I think there's a logical explanation to that as well (don't think I'll ever know what that was). I don' think we should deny how important looks is for a performing artist...

[@GoneWithTheScript]

@@robbiegibson5005 he was making constant remarks and jokes about his looks, it’s one thing to say he didn’t look healthy, I’m not asking to kiss Michael’s ass but saying he looks like Joan Collins or calling him horribly disfigured was just wrong and he said nothing positive about the album

[@VinVonVoom]

12:36 could someone point me to a source for this?

[@Nuatida]

Please remove Charles Thomson from your podcast. His choice of words are all bully and pessimistic. What a sad lonely life he must have. Perhaps he should look at himself in the mirror before criticize others. There should not be a place for him in MJ community. He sounds like he was forced to be on your show, please let him go & do some other things in his retirement. His attitude was so disgusting. He seemed to hate everything and tried to act all cool. I had always loved MJcast, but with Charles Thomson's boho, I have to admit I listen less and less now.

[@kellaaaaa]

I am pretty appalled by how judgmental and hateful Charles was. And dismissive of MJ’s experience of receiving racism at the hands of Sony. This album was amazing and it’s like they just wanted to shit on him for some strange reason.

[@TheArcoiris12]

@@kellaaaaa i agree with you, nobody can deny there is a big big roll of racism inside the music industry. MJ was the one breaking the rules, he open the industry for black artists. I truly believe there was racism involved. Take a look at Prince, he also spoke about it. The way black artist were and are treated, it needed to be sponen up. Michael was not perfect, but he lived a very difficult live and horrible situations and still manage to go forward. He was brave.

[@mjinnocentbilliontimesinno7087]

1003 AWARDS WİNNER KING OF POP MICHAEL JACKSON IS FOREVER BILLION TIMES INNOCENT 🙏🙏🙏🙏👑👑👑💎💎🥇🥇👑💎🥇👑💎🌏🌏g.b🌏🌏🌏🌏🌏🙏🙏🙏👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑We are proud of him because we have a strong and strong king.This struggle is not like everyone's struggleChallenges are given to the chosen people because they set a precedent all over the world with their mighty demeanor.Jackals travel in packs, lions fight alone.And history places the icons of lions, not of the jackal herd, in the squares.here is a strong-spirited king whose statues were built before he died.You can never kill him.

[@bethanyjohnns-k1c]

Jackson had psychiatric issues. This was quite mean regarding the surgeries.

[@chrissylew4669]

Charlie.. the truth hurts!

[@jarrettcone8949]

You guys are playing to the press hands You're making Michael look bad on this Michael was still the best at the end

[@CaptainEO]

Nope, they just keeping it 💯

[@transhumanizmarsproject]

NO ONE IS THE JUDGE AND GOD KING OF POP MICHAEL JACKSON FOREVER BILLION TIMES INNOCENT King of Pop Michael Jackson has officially proven his innocence before the law.No person has the right to judge another PERSON.NO one is the judge and GOD.Every man must first clear his heart and his faults and then judge another.Anyone who judges others ignorantly and ignorantly will be judged in the same way, this is a divine law.🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🥇🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿🕴🏿💎💎💎💎💎💎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎🌎👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑

[@jonleibow3604]

Daaaamn you guys hate Invincible lol. It wasn't his greatest, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you all say it is.

[@aaronfentress7364]

Threatened is awful and Whatever Happens is amazing. What is wrong with you guys 😂

[@watson221b5]

I have to say: Invincible is a great album! His " worst" Album? No! I think Blood On The Dancefloor is a bit more "worst" but Invincible isn't Michaels best. I think Songs like Cry, Dont Walk Away or You are my life pulling it down but with Songs like Unbreakable, Break Of Dawn, Heaven Can Wait, You Rock My World, Butterflies, What ever happens or Threatend you also have one of MJ's best Songs.

[@jeansebastienroy625]

sad but true