The Monarch Types: INTJ, ENTJ, ISFP, and ESFP with Michael Pierce

[@GhostofJung]

0:50 I wrote a book 3:17 Pierce's 4 Temperaments 3:34 Monarchic Types 7:55 aristocratic attitude 10:00 NTJs and SFPs?? 15:19 best quadra? 20:55 Quantam Mechanics and Type 25:30 what are you building, Michael?

[@MsCristea]

I test as INTJ and people often tell me that I have an aristocratic/genteel/bossy-pants/my-way-or-the-high-way demeanour even though I see myself as the most egalitarian people out there ))

[@MichaelPiercePhilosophy]

I just realized I never commented! This was a delightful interview, and I look forward to the next one! Thank you, Ghost of Jung!

[@ibrahimabdullah9277]

Unique intellectually enlightening perspective, and depths when we proceed to them we live in a world of intriguing abstractions and science fiction like unprecedented futuristic novelty. Thank you Michael Pierce. INTJ.

[@MicrowavedBread]

If you're having a hard time seeing the underlying similarities of the SFP and NTJ types, it would be useful to see how their shared functions contrast with their opposing quadra (the SFJ and NTP types) The SFPs/NTJs are "Monarchic" in the sense that they are always starting out from their immediate context. Se/Ni observes their present situation (Se) and its hidden implications (Ni). Te/Fi organizes the outside world into fixed categories and hierarchies (Te) of which the individual assigns personal value (Fi). In both cases, hard reality is taken for granted as a thing outside of oneself, that the individual self must evaluate and assign meaning. The NTPs/SFJs are "Democratic" in the sense that they are always considering a set of contexts outside of themselves. Ne/Si observes all the not-present/alternative possibilities (Ne) and all of their notions of what has happened before (Si). Fe/Ti calls upon values and modes of communication that are understood by all (Fe) and universal logic and consistent reasoning (Ti). In both cases, all interpretations of the world are to be considered, and then recounted internally. Think of a stereotypical NTJ strategist and SFP aesthete. Both have a removed and individual vision that they want to have realized in the world. They are guided by the feeling that their self and their will exist and are in opposition to the demands of others/the world. Then think of the stereotypical NTP scientist and SFJ caregiver. Both work towards upholding principles/ideals that aren't dependent on an individual self. Having a strong oppositionary will or vision would only get in the way of providing good care or upholding the scientific method, or understanding that one is cut from the same cloth or made of the same atoms as others. In other words, the Monarchic types need a notion of Self in order to function. Whereas the Democratic types need a notion of non-Self in order to function.

[@GhostofJung]

this was so eloquent. I hate you for how well this was explained.

[@MicrowavedBread]

@@GhostofJung Thanks! I was afraid I wasn't being articulate enough

[@sirbradfordofhousejones]

11:15 YES. This is accurate, Michael. You are doing it justice for sure. It’s pretty monarchical in my brain despite being a kind and inclusive person. Hashtag “not all aristocrats!”

[@elypelowski5670]

I enjoyed this thoroughly. Thank you for the interesting perspectives

[@GhostofJung]

yes! Thank you. I get along with Mr Pierce so well the conversation always flows so swimmingly.

[@sirbradfordofhousejones]

8:35 “I don’t report to anyone” is absolutely my attitude. I’m an esfp. I don’t think I like the aristocracy angle as much as the monarchy one from the POV of my type. High society is HARDLY an esfp angle 😂

[@sirbradfordofhousejones]

Funny that I wrote this RIGHT as Joe talked about his esfp dad!

[@jankom.7783]

I tried to deepen my understanding of type by trying to type books and movies. Not character themselves, but the story. Who would write such story. And so far, what I got is that gammas ( NTJs, SFPs) are not monarchs, but enforcers. Military. But we enforce our own view of law and justice. And then we put alphas (SFJs, NTPs) in charge of it. To take care of our stuff. Because we have to go to travel to get experience. And more stuff. Alphas are the nobility. But they have to live by our rules - that is Fe. In return they get comfort and protection.

[@Mart-Bro]

You two are 2 of the most well read people in this space, very exciting to see you chat

[@GhostofJung]

Flattered! I try to stay sharp and it helps when michael comes on to validate me lmaooo

[@RobertoCardadeiro]

My theory is that the trickster function instead of being a vacuum of understanding is in fact the fourth dimension gateway. By fourth dimension gateway I mean the exponencial understanding of information that cognitive function perceive in the universe. When mastered the trickster function becomes the hero of the angelical form.

[@GhostofJung]

ok ok ok ok I feel that. Explain how its manifested for you.

[@RobertoCardadeiro]

@@GhostofJung hmm, normally the trickster function starts as the one you understand the least, less than the Demon function, because the demon function comes out when you drink, use drugs, get mad etc. The trickster for me seems like the function that understand the information exponetialized and not in this "dimension" of information we live now. Think on everything as information, once you master a step your next step is exponential because your first step is already a sum of things/information. So, by a function that "sees" things, perceive things exponetialized we think that function as useless because it can't perceive things now as other people perceive. But it sees further way and in the next form things will become in the future (after the exponencial effect happens).

[@thesimsarchitect9432]

I think that you chose monarch instead of aristocrat is very fitting and hits the nail right on the head. i have a few scenarios that perfectly fit into the "monarch" type. first: the moment where michael quotes his INTJ friend who talks about their attitude towards parties i was a little creeped out but also had to laugh so hard, because he literally quotes my INTJ best friend. She talks EXACTLY like that and it's hilarious. second: i myself am an ESFP and i completely and utterly relate to what you said about ESFP. in a way i am worse in the whole having a hierachy in my head than my INTJ friend. The only difference is that i just don't say it out loud. third: my mother is an ENTJ and a teacher. She regularly tells me about her schooldays and at this point her students call her "queen" and she sometimes then (jokingly) calles them her "subordinates". She has the same thing going with her co-teachers, some of them call her "queen" and also treat her like a superior. it's crazy to me, but putting it into perspective with what you explained it makes a lot of sense and i can definitely see it in myself and others around me who share the 4 types (INTJ, ENTJ, ISFP, and ESFP)

[@GhostofJung]

Thank you!! Ok monarch it is then! It's a very attractive archetype

[@DanceMotherSuperior]

At seven years old I ordained myself "The Great". Very fitting category.

[@GhostofJung]

Ah yes, you knew from such a young age you were already better than the rest 😂

[@more444store6]

I am getting ready to listen to this, but I always said my ENTJ husband was imperialistic in his attitude.

[@GhostofJung]

Imperialism 😍😍😍

[@Napoleonicwarfare]

SFP's and NTJ's are very similar - more than this INTJ is recognising

[@giomar89]

Late to the party, but in terms of nomenclature, may I just say etimologically speaking “monarch” (rule of one) seems better than “aristocrat” (rule of the best). Especially in view of what you guys comment in 9:14, ie, it sometimes sounding aristocratic (“they can be sub-par if they want”) but actually stemming from a very unified, monad-like ego structure -INTP (Edit for typos)

[@GhostofJung]

Gah this is good. I think I'm going for the group classification. Does this temperament not view themselves as the "best"? I love linguistics so thank you for pointing out the true meaning

[@giomar89]

@@GhostofJung This is me being fastidiously petty with words, but I wouldn't say this temperament view themselves as the "best." I'd say it's more like what Michael says; an attitude that is incredibly strict with themselves (very high standards *for themselves* first and foremost) and that won't allow themselves to "mingle with the plebs," not because the others are "worse" (plebs) but because their ego has this top-to-bottom structure they abide by and that *demands* that they stick to their self-imposed standards. I see a subtle difference there, and I get how that can come across as very arrogant and "aristocratic," but to me it's more about this directness of the ego that allows them to say "I might want to have fun like those people are having now, but I don't want to end up with what I regard as the mediocre consequences that having fun like those people entails, so I won't allow myself to have fun like those people do now" That, to me, is monarchic: a single idea is prioritised, thus creating a top-to-bottom organization of the ego, i.e., subordinating, top-to-bottom, all the desires, behaviours, and expressions of the person. Hope it makes sense!

[@Hari-kx2er]

​​@@giomar89Excellent description which I believe is accurate. Your words remind me of what Michael Pierce wrote of INTP in his book. "The Thinker (INTP) performs sublime acrobatics of diction and syntax to express properly what is normally expressed in parables fables or idioms" Nietzsche (INTJ) said this (jokingly) of Kant (INTP): "Kant wanted to prove in a way that would dumbfound the common man that common man was right" This comment is meant as an appreciation. Don't take it otherwise! INTJ

[@jeplica7011]

Infp here, and as i eat my prison pad Thai ramen, and listen to you worry about one type be offended over feeling inferior. Do you guys know what it feels like to watch people talk about ways to be entertained with setting up competitive reality manipulating and stacking in hierarchy. The personalities that HATE hierarchical competitive dangling carrots and things of others wants interfering with their progress and needs? I ask because that's what im experiencing, mad interference that is so obviously experiments and games,. And i do not take the path of least resistance. I'm not offended, i don't even know who's aware and who's not. Does this ring a bell you guys?

[@casstay4499]

Yeah, as Intj I understand you can’t be bothered with such low born machinations? Welcome to the Aristocracy/ Monarchy friend. Because we have still determined that”common” behavior is below us😇.

[@frankbranson9583]

Individuals in this quadra try to progress humanity via inventions, organization and new ways of looking at art. A much better term would be the Progressives.

[@GhostofJung]

uggggh Progressives? that archetype doesn't jive with me but I won't argue it. You don't like the "Aristocrats"?

[@frankbranson9583]

@@GhostofJung An aristocrat is a person near the top of the peak who thereby never wants things to change. They are defenders of stasis.

[@Hari-kx2er]

@@frankbranson9583 It is true when you put it like that. However, here the word is used in context of 'mental attitude ' rather than whether someone is conservative or radical in general.

[@frankbranson9583]

@@Hari-kx2er You cannot separate words from their meanings.

[@Hari-kx2er]

@@frankbranson9583 You can have nuances in the way you use words and clarify that in a discussion (as Pierce did here). Pierce had made it very clear that he used 'Monarchical' to mean an elitist and fiercely individualist attitude and not a rigid status quo defender as you defined 'Monarchical'.

[@mokari9268]

King Henry VIII : ESFP Queen Marie Antoinette: ISFP King Henry VII: INTJ Napoleon Bonaparte: ENTJ

[@GhostofJung]

Ok ok ok didn't know the first two fit the mold perfectly!

[@jeplica7011]

The driver? Does that have anything to do with the automatic driving gps cars that i keep catching trying to sync ai to me? I really hope not, if yes, can you stop please, its non consensual and persistent

[@casstay4499]

Non consensual and persistent.. Sounds like every bad date I’ve ever had…

[@lloatgamma]

Theocracy >>>

[@GhostofJung]

autocratic theocracy

[@Hari-kx2er]

Lol 😂