The Most Broken Mechanic? - Singles

[@FalseSwipeGaming]

Get 10% off your first purchase by using my link: tinyurl.com/3s5vryua or going to mantasleep.com and using our code "fsg" Thank you to Manta Sleep for sponsoring this video!

[@playersnake]

Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Dragonite theorem

[@Jesussaves852]

Jesus loves you and may God bless

[@Skellyplayz226]

So i just played Earthbound(an RPG very similar to Pokemon) and I noticed there was a stat called "luck" which allowed you to dodge attacks more often. You should do a video about the competitive scene if a 7th "luck" stat was implemented as a core mechanic throughout the lifespan of the games starting with gen 1. I know this idea is kinda weird and specific, but please make it. Also I love your content. Your uploads are the best part of my week.

[@mennykickens486]

Lmao finally a perfect sponsor for the video focus

[@Kazzujin]

I hate i was looking for one of my fav youtubers with a manta sleep promo and couldnt find one. And now i have and i already bought my mask. :(

[@DionysisGalanis]

I literally just started watching this on my bed as I was about to sleep. Yet it is banned now. I don't know what to do.

[@theschnozzler]

Sleep via rest isn't banned so you can sleep for 2 hours at a time

[@docxy7331]

Seeth

[@ShibuNub3305]

suffer.

[@3MB3Rx134]

Cry?

[@thel-iteralone4592]

Gen 1 sleep: you need to waste a turn to wake up. Gen 5 sleep: the number of sleep turns resets if you switch out. Which of these mechanics is more disgustingly broken?

[@rubenduenas5881]

Gen 5

[@grunkleg.2934]

Gen 5 because it's easier to manage Gen 1 sleep

[@gregorysilas6329]

Definitely 5

[@devinsdead227]

Difference is everything is broken and glitchy in gen one so its way less impactful in gen 1, Furthermore, gen 1 has no users of sleep moves above 75% accuracy (except parasect but thats not even a pokemon) while gen 5 has amoongus and breloom, 2 incredible pokemon

[@tespenkr9924]

Yes

[@chasemiller3712]

New Pokémon item: Warm Blanket. When asleep, the Pokémon's Special Defense is greatly boosted.

[@EvidLekan]

Milotic would love that item

[@thebigandlazyguy246]

Komala signature item pog

[@globurim]

Rest plus sleep talk/snore would be wild

[@micahfurlow2624]

Genuinely not that bad of an idea

[@Eidolon5150]

Pog item

[@chaosgallade2331]

Nemona is starting to become an unofficial mascot for this channel the way these thumbnails are going.

[@雪者]

Well, I'll be. Nemona fans will be happy at this

[@misteral9045]

She pretty basic. It fits.

[@TyrantWesker]

I mean, she basically IS competitive Pokemon personified.

[@mathewricafrente5984]

No wonder why she has a hard time finding a rival, no one in her school plays competitive Pokémon

[@gnarledcox]

She's perfect for it, she's a skilled competitive trainer with a positive and welcoming attitude. Irl competitive Pokémon was soooo niche for so long that the anime created Paul as a stand in for those players- caring about stats and performance more than loving the pokemon or enjoying the journey, making him an asshole and a villain because the community WAS so snobby But as features get easier by the gen (hyper training, nature mints) competitive Pokémon becomes more and more accessible to ALL players Nemona symbolizes a change, she's the ideal modern competitive player who wants to reach out their hand and boost curious players up to their level, not gatekeep knowledge

[@Flash33c]

I think part of the reason Sleep is so controversial is the constant changing of how it works. In one gen it could last for 1-5 turns and not reset upon switching out, while in another it could last 1-3 turns while also resetting upon switching out. It seems TPC couldn't make up their minds on how it actually worked until recently.

[@roberte.o.speedwagon6043]

Sleep in Gen1 is insane. Sleep in Gen1 without Sleep Clause is EVIL.

[@vaporterra]

The harbinger of that level of evil was Pokémon Stadium

[@Will-uv9kx]

​@@vaporterradidn't stadium 2 have sleep clause?

[@MGPW]

EVERYthing is broken in Gen1. Why call out one specific broken thing? That's like eating a sandwich and complaining about the bread.

[@roberte.o.speedwagon6043]

@@MGPW because the video is about Sleep and talking about Sleep is.... Contextually important? Why would I make a comment about Confusion in this video about Sleep?

[@Danchamp07]

This is why I use slices of ham as bread substitute for my sandwiches

[@NotSpecialDude]

I think the reason the sleep ban was so controversial was HOW it was implemented. Namely that it was ban via a council vote vs a public suspect test. There were valid reasons given and hindsight shows that it did have merit, but it sat wrong with a lot of people. Especially since the Survey they put for vote had "Banning Sleep" Sit at 3.7 for the council and 3.3 for general. (For context, you'd put a number between 1 and 5, with 1 being balanced and 5 being banworthy. The final result is the average of all the votes.) People felt that Sleep should have been tested instead of instabanned. In the end of the day, people begrudgingly went along since it was something most felt good for the scene, but the manner it was done certainly left a bad taste in some peoples mouth.

[@CottidaeSEA]

Remember, it's the same group of people who believe Stealth Rocks isn't banworthy, despite it being leagues above other hazard moves. Gamefreak had to make hazard removal moves more common and plentiful just to deal with that garbage, but that just leaves other hazard moves in an awkward position because they aren't as powerful.

[@darvin8627]

The problem with that stance is that Sleep Clause has ALWAYS been decided with a council vote. Sleep Clause has been controversial for several generations now, but the Council has always privately voted in favor of maintaining it. No suspect. Nothing has changed in this regard, other than this generation their vote went the other way.

[@darvin8627]

The issue of Sleep Clause has ALWAYS been decided with a council vote in every previous generation. Sleep Clause has been controversial for several generations now, but the Council has always privately voted in favor of maintaining it and a lot of people weren't even aware that these votes were happening because they voted in favor of a status quo. The reality is that this matter has been decided unilaterally by the OU council without a suspect for well over a decade. Nothing has changed in this regard, the only thing new is that this generation they voted the other way.

[@grunkleg.2934]

​@@CottidaeSEAA couple things wrong here: - Hazard removal is far _less_ common in Gen 9 - In spite of less hazard removal, you can still play around them if you know what you're doing. You could slot in a Great Tusk or equip some Heavy-Duty Boots for example - Stealth Rock is for sure the most common entry hazard, but saying it's leagues above Spikes, Webs, and T. Spikes is just plain wrong. Spikes may actually be better than Rocks thanks to their tendency to target Pokemon who aren't already wearing Boots. Your Kingambit's still taking 25% if it's not holding a Balloon or Boots, which is very significant chip damage. Webs are strong enough that Ribombee of all things managed to land in OU for a bit by being an elite web setter. Toxic Spikes have the benefit of applying continuous chip damage through poison, especially valuable in a world where Toxic is significantly less common

[@NotSpecialDude]

@@grunkleg.2934 I think he was referencing Stealth Rock's dominance during gens 4 and 5. The former especially had it so you were often SoL when dealing with them. I personally don't think they were ban worthy, but I see their point.

[@sephondranzer]

Sleep clause was baked into Pokémon Stadium - every cup and gym leader castle has this clause.

[@AndresD.deLeon]

Is that true? It's been 23 years since I've played stadium

[@DarthMagog]

​@@AndresD.deLeonStadium 1 and 2 had the following rules, straight from the cartridge Level Range: 50 - 55 Total Level: 155 Sleep Clause: Yes (Sleep will fail) Freeze Clause: Yes (Pokemon just can't freeze anymore) Species Clause: Yes Item Clause: Yes (Stadium 2 Only) Self-KO Clause: Yes Event Clause: Yes Time Limit: No Prime Cup was a little different, since they didn't have a level limit, and they didn't have any banned pokémon (though they still did have an event clause for some reason)

[@baddragonite]

😮the truth is a Breloom actually murdered all of the OU council's parents in an alleyway so now it's considered the most terrifying pokemon with both spore and baton pass Fun fact: he actually used Baton Pass to Escape the cops and is still at large to this very day

[@Aaa-vp6ug]

As someone who is definitely that Breloom and NOT a plushie, can confirm

[@LaiLai-2111]

Sleep and Rest don’t feel like real words anymore after just the gen 1 section

[@tomwolfe7782]

Semantic satiation strikes again...

[@GlowstickLamps]

Who needs sleep when you have showdown

[@gayboy1142]

actually really solid double entendre

[@supermaster2012]

Based

[@GlowstickLamps]

@@gayboy1142djdjdufuh I didn't realize that I made a double entendre, thanks for letting me know XD

[@boop53]

shoutouts to Mega Mewtwo Y for being immune to sleep for some reason

[@bluesandman7566]

I have a headcanon I would like to share with you: Notice how Mewtwo's head grows when it mega evolves to Mega Y? I believe it's because mega evolution affected it's brain, so my headcanon is that mega evolution mega stimulated it's brain so it's incapable of falling asleep.

[@siddhartacrowley]

​@@bluesandman7566 Brain Damage

[@supermaster2012]

@@siddhartacrowleyMega Mewtwo Y is a Smogon council member confirmed.

[@breakfast_pasta7923]

Tbh it’s probably just a gag on the original concept of Mewtwo’s "Awakened" form.

[@darkness74185]

@@breakfast_pasta7923 woke Mewtwo woke Mewtwo

[@Constantap_]

I love how Nemona has become a recurring character for these thumbnails lol

[@EnderPryde]

It's also worth remembering that the version of Sleep Clause for Nintendo Cup 1997 also doesn't resemble the modern idea of Sleep Clause at all: It also counted Rest-Sleep, so you couldn't use Hypnosis if an opposing mon in the back had used Rest and swapped out.

[@nathanlamont9920]

I recall Sleep clause being on Stadium 2, Colosseum, and XD. They also had freeze clause.

[@Acre00]

Stadium 1 as well. Not sure about the later games, but it was even stricter in Stadium where Rest would trigger sleep clause on your team

[@shakenjacob7946]

These meme thumbnails are absolutely glorious.

[@diamondmemer9754]

New item: the santa clause It only works on delibird, but if the opponent attempts to put the pokemon to sleep you instantly win the battle and the opponent cannot sleep irl until next Christmas

[@TheMrShanmao]

personally... I think banning it outright is a little harsh. It's strange to think that people will kick and scream about being slept but will be completely ok with their entire team being Toxic stalled, or burned to deal half damage, or even paralyzed to become slower and lose a turn. Especially now that Sleep it countered by Grass the way Poison is countered by Poison and Steel, Burn by fire types, and Paralysis by Ground and Electric types (all of these having exceptions of course). It's stated that Hypnosis is basically a coin flip with it's 60% accuracy, needing an item or move to take up a vital spot in order for it to hit more consistently. Sleep Powder has a 75% accuracy and; while having a higher 3/4 chance to hit, you now have the normal counters to Sleep plus Grass-Types and Goggles if someone chooses. Then you have to deal with a 1-3 turn guessing game where you're either ballsy or too cautious. Things like this even riddle Pokemon by default where games can be decided based on RNG from moves, to abilities, to the statuses you gain. But people dislike Sleep because it wastes their time, it sucks being slept and it can equally suck when either side is just getting punted by lady luck. Moves like taunt on fast mons are more fair since it's like a read, a battle of wits as you neuter the other mon by denying them their utility; but people also have lost turns due to Paralysis or Confusion and even feel like they wasted a turn as the opponent pulls up a "protect" move or just recovers HP after all that hard work getting them low. Honestly sleep doesn't seem so brutal when you put it next to all the RNG it has to deal with in a game that has and always will have RNG. But now to the nitty gritty of it, the real sleep killers. There are only 2 100% accurate sleep moves in the entire game (at this point in time). One is Yawn, a move that requires set-up and can be circumvented by a switch-out (bonus points if you have one of the dozens of top OU mons that get U-turn, Volt-switch, or even Flip turn for free). But the one that most agree really hurts them is Spore. Spore is a unique case. It's basically a more accurate Sleep Power, having the ability to rival Toxic with that accuracy increase; but only 6 mons in the entire pokedex know this powerful move, and... they're honestly not all that special. Don't get me wrong, Breloom is a power house, but he's even more frail than Parasect and only really outspeeds tanks; but I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's look at them: Parasect: Bug-Grass type... (god why?) With only 60 base HP and 80 base Def and SpDef. His Atk is alright, with a nice 95, but like some of his other mushroom brethren, his speed is base 30... with snorlax levels of speed... Pros are his access to Spore and the Ability Dry skin that allow his to swap in on water types for free, and even though his typing has two 4x weaknesses, he resists both of the most offensive types in the game of Ground and Fighting, but that's all he's got. My best success is having him as a Spore, Leech Seeding, Substitute staller and switching in as the final mon when other threats have been taken away. Breloom: Grass-Fighting with less bulk than Parasect and only base 70 speed. Thier attack is amazing! with the ability to be a little more versatile with Technician and countering Toxic with Poison Heal, Breloom can be quite the hard hitter. But that's about where it ends... their entire point is to be a tank buster or gain momentum from a good switch in, but Breloom's lack of bulk means you'd either have to invest quite a bit into it to help absorb at least 1 hit, or just go fully into a glass cannon that will still be out-sped by most mons; and those mons could just 1 shot Breloom with a neutral move. Having Spore with Breloom can offer nice utility and a good wrench to throw into a 1v1, but they honestly don't need it as that could otherwise waste a turn or be useless to use when up against other speedsters or counters to Breloom Amoongus (sus?): Grass-Poison. Has much better bulk than the previous two, and with a decent typing that can deal with one of the best types (fairy) Amoongus can be a devastating tank/staller with Regenerator for quick swap outs. They have access to moves like Clear Smog to prevent set-up, and a decent split attacker for your choice of damaging options. But if I'm going to be honest, I found Amoongus to be much better with Toxic stalling than Sleep stalling. Amoongus' damage is just as I stated, "decent", but it can't really break through walls or even last against real heavy hitters even with its bulk. You'd be wasting your time sleeping then trying to do damage only for them to wake-up and recover, or swap out to utilize Sleep Clause (or to a mon that can't be slept), or just awaken to do massive damage that could kill. It'd be better to use Toxic as it has no clause and you can whittle down tanks more effectively; even if they use rest you know you have 2 turns for a swap and can send in another mon more capable of dealing with your opponent. Shiinotic: Grass-Fairy. Having more Special orientation and fairy stab, this little guy can swoop in to deny a Dragon-Type their sweep and has a very good SpAtk to reek havoc. They have the move Strength Sap which can be good to take a hit and reduce physical attackers power for others. That's.... honestly where it ends. They're not that bad per say but nothing makes them notable other than having Spore and fairy-typing with good SpAtk. Shiinotic is also slow as dirt but possesses some good moves to make them fill out more of a strange utility that can take down other Specialists with the same win/loss ratio. Their Abilities are kinda garbage though, Illuminate is literally useless in battle, Raindish is better with or against rain teams, and while I'd opt for Effect Spore, it can bone you when your opponent suddenly gets a status you don't want them to have. Toedscruel: Grass-Ground. Kind of in the same boat as Shiinotic as they have more special orientation, Toedscruel has gen 1 stats that make them lean more toward a specialist tank or the ability to be the fastest spore user. They have access to Rapid Spin, Hex, and some very good Ground moves that are mostly Special; so those weak to it are usually within a decent kill range. But their ability Mycelium Might forces them to always be last when using a status move. So if you're trying to use spore, you're forced to go last at the cost of having a mold-breaker effect. This has some utility but becomes more niche as you still can't Sleep Grass pokemon, and it's not like there are a ton of counters just waiting for Toedscruel to take advantage of it. If someone has Overcoat or Magic Bounce Toedscruel would have to be safely switched in and not have to worry about a move that could check them after the swap. An immunity to Electric can be nice but Toedscruel doesn't really have the damage to take most things down; it's better to stick to its stab moves and being used as utility for consistency and actual see success. Brute Bonnet: Grass-Dark. Finally the last one, and a pseudo legend at that. Their typing may not be that jaw dropping, but its stats are nothing to laugh at. With an amazing attack that almost rivals Breloom and the best bulk out of all of these mons, Brute Bonnet I'd say feels like they'd be viable with more versatility in their move set and the ability to take and give back hits with better success than the others. There's not much to say as Brute Bonnet really just feels like a strong arm pokemon with a good movepool to pull from, even with its mostly bad typing its bulk and damage make up for it, as well as a free swap on Psychic-Types. I wouldn't call these mons overpowered. They have access to the best Sleep move in the game but you'll notice a sort of... niche that Gamefreak has given them. They are always slow, usually the last one to move, and each one is a pivot. Parasect needs Dry-Skin but pivots on Water-Types, Breloom Pivots on Tanks or anything that has notably less speed, Amoongus.... uh, actually you got me there, Shiinotic on Dragons, Toedscruel on Electrics, and Brute Bonnet on Psychic types. They could easily be dealt with if you have a fast Fire/Flying mon even if the clause wasn't there. It's also worth noting some might play better to their strengths, like how Parasect is dependant on Spore, Breloom doesn't need it to be good, and Amoongus is better with Toxic in my honest opinion; the others don't really have much in specialty but aren't harmed in using Spore. Heck, not even all of the mons listed are in the current gen, or might not be for later ones. All in all, Sleep is just as RNG as most of the game. The only thing that makes it consistent are the Mushroom Mons with Spore, and it's not like they're the hardest thing to deal with. I wouldn't remove the Sleep Clause since that would open a floodgate of anguish due to how sleep is perceived, but with it on the Mushrooms are heavily nerfed due to at least half of them struggling to survive in the meta with that restriction. I think the ban was just a bit much since there are counters that are even just natural and the clause would've always been there. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a big fan of Parasect :V

[@TheMrShanmao]

mfw someone likes my mentally unhinged post :V

[@scottthesecondcoming]

not reading allat but good job on writing all of that

[@shajidrahaman]

The issue with sleep is that it completely shuts down your team rather than just weakening it. Burns dont affect tanks or special attackers, paralysis doesn't hurt tanks too bad, and toxic still allows you to be proactive enough to shut down the opponent's team. You sound a lot like someone who hasn't really ever battled someone spamming sleep moves where most of your team becomes unusable and you literally cant do anything but send mons out to get set up on or killed. Oh yeah and btw you forgot to mention vivillon in your post. Vivillon has a near 100% acc sleep powder with quiver dance.

[@aidynladouceur8369]

To add the the list of reasons why players weren't all for the gen 9 sleep ban, was because apart from Darkrai, and maybe Iron Val, sleep didn't feel bad. Hypno val is release and DLC 1 wasn't getting the status banned, and it took Darkrai with hypno + nasty plot AND sash for the mechanic to really feel overwhelming. Then when discussions about the ban were being brought up, players who didn't feel like it should go, and in turn, basically kill the viability of those slow grass types who's identity and value was based on their ability to sleep (Like amoungus and breloom), were offering different solutions to the problem, such as only banning hypnosis as its inaccuracy and presence on the faster and stronger mons in the tier meant that when sleep was being abused, it was the main offender. But after all the public discussion, instead of a public test and vote, it was eventually banned by console vote as a whole, leaving a lot of people feeling unheard and bitter about the loss of some fan favorite pokes just to keep a mon who's been banned for 5 generations in the tier.

[@thestonedgeek8928]

Sounds like a whole lot of crying from bad players wanting to continue to abuse a broken mechanic because they can't win otherwise.

[@HowlingOneify]

Neither Amonguss nor Breloom NEED spore. They like it of course but Amoonguss still can get used on select stall teams and Breloom still slashes stall and some fat teams with Swords Dance sets. Super small niche of course but it exists for both.

[@aidynladouceur8369]

@@thestonedgeek8928 yeah, and an ability that gives you a free +1 attk for having the rest of your team KO-d is A-OK for the competitive scene. Especially when that mon is strong and bulky. While we're at it, lets ban Jirachi as well, having 60% chance to flinch is rng and broken too. The problem with writing off people issues like that, is how many other situations that you can apply the same reasoning too. We all want a balanced metagame, and no one thought darkrais hypno sash set was fun or good for the game, but saying its sleeps fault, and not the fact that its fast inaccurate sleep alongside immediate powerful offensive pressure is what led to more mons being completely irrelivant even when in a normal and healthy spot in the game to convenience a single mon. Rage fist and last respects wern't banned when a single mon was destructively abusing it, but was once more mons had it and it was broken on them all. Sleep WASN'T broken on all, or even most mons, yet it was banned, not the mon. Where's the consistency there?

[@AceAviations2]

Then again this isn't the first questionable ban they're done, that would be the first is the FULL Baton Pass ban. Gen 5 has it right, there Baton Pass isn't banned, however having Baton Pass+way to boost stats is. This allows for Dry-passing, aka using Baton Pass as a pivot move, one that ACTUALLY COUNTERS PURSUIT-TRAPPING. If you didn't know Baton Pass for whatever reason, meaning that for Celebi it's the better option over U-Turn. With Pursuit gone this isn't as big of an issue in Gen 8 or 9, however the previous gens and Natdex this would be good. This would just need to be expanded to apply to Z-Moves which boost stats (Z-Splash, Conversion, etc.) and cover items that boost stats when particular conditions are met (Weakness Policy for example). There you have a more reasonable solution than banning a move with healthy uses (dry-passing), this overreach of banning Sleep as a whole instead of banning Hypnosis is just another reason why I don't respect the council's decisions much anymore. By banning Baton Pass they also indirectly banned counterplay to Pursuit-Trapping. Yes you can pass Substitutes, which is what got Shed Tail banned, however the difference is that Baton Passing a Substitute requires two turns, so there's no guarantee that the incoming Mon will keep it for anything other than a safe switch-in. Plus if the thing passing the Substitute is slower than the attacking Mon they may be able to break it before the pass. Shed Tail is broken because it creates the Substitute and passes it in the same turn, making a two-step process into a single button press.

[@thestonedgeek8928]

@@aidynladouceur8369 all I read is "waaah I'm bad at the game and can't adjust waaaaah".

[@TheStrongestBaka]

My very first ever competitive pokemon battle was on an old simulator (NetBattle Supremacy) where you could challenge people with your own set of clauses. I didn't know what any of those were so i left them unchecked and ended up sleeping everything with a Breloom. Truly a battle of all time.

[@ghost_walker_x]

I really love Nemona being in all these thumbnails

[@alessandroparducci4952]

Remember guys: sleep is important and you should get at least 7-8 hours of sleep oer day

[@drxavier1870]

The diffrence between Singles and VGC is so dtrastically diffrent, i love keeping up with both metagames cuz its so intresting how Pokemon or mechanics in one format can either suck or be broken in the other. Incineroar is the perfect example with it being the king VGC but down in like... RU in Singles

[@itztaytay2]

NU right now actually, and last month it was within 2% usage of dropping further to PU

[@grunkleg.2934]

Another important thing to mention about sleep, especially in Gen 9. One of the ways you can sorta try to play around sleep is doing a sleep sack, basically you switch in the least important Pokemon in the battle in on a sleep move so that something more impactful doesn't need to worry about it. However, the shaky accuracy of most sleep moves means that sometimes your strategic play can get foiled by dumb luck, putting you in a far worse position than if your Mon had gotten slept. Now the Darkrai or Valiant gets another free turn to do whatever they want, such as choosing to KO the Pokemon right in front of them so that they can potentially land the hit on another juicy sleep target

[@rubenduenas5881]

Off topic, but I love how Nemona is featured in these competitive thumbnails.

[@mr.lantern1111]

The thumbnail guy for this channel just really likes Nemona.

[@marcorodriguez8792]

Probably likes her nemonas as well

[@axis8396]

Important note about Gen 9 is that we largely don't have good Electric/Misty terrain users unlike Gen 7 for example where Koko or Fini are everywhere. Our Electric Surge mon is Pincurchin and our Misty Surge mon is Normal/Galarian Wheezing which also really wants Levitate for the ground and spikes immunity or Neutralizing Gas for gimmicking poison immune technicalities like Garg or Gliscor for example. Once we get Fini or Koko back, or just good misty/electric terrain setters in general, I think it'll prolly come back

[@quacklord8710]

not only does it prefer other abilities, a lot of the time it wants to click wisp itself so its even detrimental

[@twocandan1979]

I wish they'd just replace it with the drowsy status for Legends. Same with frostbite and freeze.

[@brendanboomhour7606]

Freeze isn't that bad, it just needs a higher self cure rate (and less moves that cause it), like say, 40%-50% a turn, and maybe make it so the self cure rate increases by 20% a turn, so you'd have to have incredibly awful luck to stay frozen more than a turn or two

[@BurningSilverRose]

Drowsy is just a worse paralyzed.

[@TyrantWesker]

@@brendanboomhour7606 Even so, I think frostbite is just the better mechanic, as it could be more widely-distributed like burn is now. Special attackers finally having a status effect meant to counter them just feels more balanced, as right now, special attackers don't have to deal with Intimidate OR burns in the way physical attackers do. I feel like adding frostbite and an Intimidate-style ability that lowers special attack would feel more fair and also serve as another buff for the Ice-types that so badly need it, since they won't be able to lean on terastalization as a crutch come Gen 10.

[@luigigordovermelho1063]

Please no drosy is even More rng dependent

[@NotBamOrBing]

Nah

[@itsLantik]

Literally the perfect sponsor 😂

[@TheGaming100]

agreed

[@nishant9289]

I think the nerf to the defensive Pokemon in the form of limited recovers and less available soft-boiled, reduced toxic distribution was also significant ... Their reduced viability meant that the metagame was essentially faster than before and much more on the offensive side and each turn held more weightage than it used to do before, which made sleep even more impactful in a generation like Gen 9.

[@SuperSaiyanDCG]

I love how creative that thumbnail is lol

[@ChocolateSoda1]

“Pokémon has now banned sleep” is a headline I’d like to see

[@itsmesnacks]

very funny when you consider the app pokemon sleep

[@superiormeh]

...been away for too long. Htf did sleep get banned?!?!

[@Piggly8w8]

Smogon decided to drop Darkrai from Ubers to OU. Then it and Iron Valiant abused Hypnosis to coin flip for whether they swept the opponent’s team or got taken out themselves. Soon enough they decided to ban the entire mechanic

[@barrylmcdonald4176]

gen 9 is super fast paced and even giving away 1 free turn can swing a game one way or the other + fast abusers were very strong this gen (ival, darkrai, lilligant-h)

[@DigitalRag3X]

@@Piggly8w8I thought darkrais drop was DUE to sleep being banned? Sad cause now they run twave

[@RandalfElVikingo]

​@@Piggly8w8Instead of banning both Pokemon... bunch of geniuses.

[@cadetjones9205]

It was deemed too Powerful on certain Pokemon. Darkrai entered OU and had a lead set that would decide entire games on coin flips of whether or not it hit Hypnosis. To make things worse, Hypnosis being inaccurate actually worked in its favour cause if a Pokemon switched in hoping to be put to sleep for the sake of keeping Sleep Clause active and Hypnosis missed, Darkrai could take the KO on the sleep sacrifice and put something else to sleep after. Alolan Ninetales and Iron Valiant would end up doing the same thing and soon the metagame was full of players spamming Hypnosis rolling the lottery for free turns. This meta was deemed unhealthy, so sleep was banned.

[@user-er5sb6je7n]

"How good was my 8 hours of sleep actually?"

[@yuzooman]

Man I love the thumbnails of this channel

[@yzer9975]

I love that Nemona has started to become the mascot for these videos

[@skeetermania3202]

Huh, a 30+ minute FSG vid that doesn’t bring up Tyranitar. That’s a first!

[@Lassoloc]

it is in the b-roll footage of breloom in gen4 tho

[@skeetermania3202]

@@Lassoloc I meant that it’s not mentioned by name.

[@Lassoloc]

@@skeetermania3202 yes i know

[@nitro5247]

This is as close as we’re getting to a Kellen reveal

[@celery791]

He has revealed his face in another channel already. He’s in a “10 Poketubers design a Pokemon” video by Truegreen7.

[@bmac4]

​@@celery791I believe he's also been in a few livestreams too

[@paolotrevisanato9028]

I read “Kellen reversal”, as in the pokemon move, and I had no idea what you were talking about 😂

[@notfabio9858]

Incredible thumbnail

[@RodrigoLeaf15]

Strange that Sneasler wasn't mention, because I remember the whole Sleep argument starting when Sneasler was added, and its Dire Claw bypassed the Sleep Clause due to it's RNG nature xDDDD (Yes, Sneasler was the broken one itself, but it certainly started the discussion on sleep's power XD)

[@itztaytay2]

It didn't bypass Sleep Clause, if it proc'd sleep on its target while another mon on the enemy team was already put to sleep it would fail to sleep the new one (and you'd get a chat message about Sleep Clause activating)

[@maplemabel]

i enjoy the layered joke in the thumbnail

[@BossBoomBox]

This video misses out something big from Gen 2 onwards… the introduction of the cleric role with the new move Heal Bell. Now, Sleep is no longer guaranteed to leave something useless, as you can remove the status while the sleeping Mon is in your party. Aromatherapy followed in Gen 3, increasing the amount of mons able to heal teammates. Also in Generation 3 we get the introduction of abilities, some of which help against sleep, like Early Bird, Natural Cure, or Shed Skin to wake up early, and abilities like Insomnia which causes a user to become immune to sleep entirely. These new anti-sleep options, along with the grass type powder immunity as you mentioned all contribute to why Gen 1 had the most powerful sleep, and as to why each generation is slowly felt less busted, not just sleep mechanic changes from generation to generation.

[@itztaytay2]

Also worth noting that Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are basically entirely gone in gen 9 thanks to the resetting movesets this gen. Heal Bell is only on the Blissey line and Chimeco, and Aromatherapy is entirely gone.

[@munchrai6396]

Yeah, its weird that this was never brought up. Was always the way I'd deal with sleep on more defensive teams, especially in conjunction with Wish on something like Umbreon

[@BossBoomBox]

Heck, even synchronise has been used to swap into someone using an obvious spore (well, used by me at least because I abhor sleep users and like Gardevoir and everyone expects Trace) lmao

[@munchrai6396]

@@BossBoomBox Synchronise doesn't copy sleep though. Great for reflecting other status, especially against Magic Bouncers, but Sleep is a no go for it

[@plabcentral630]

Nemona in the thumbnail= big win

[@gamingcactus7095]

No way they banned sleep.

[@howlhades0001]

Womp womp Lil bro

[@DiegoG2004]

At this rate they're going to ban everything but moves that only deal damage.

[@martinlowrimore]

I havent slept in several days

[@trains3377]

its so broken this gen, it needed it happen

[@itsasecrettoevery1]

the way i see it, kyogre is surrounded. what's under the ocean? thats right, ground.

[@MiniOre2]

When the two generations that banned sleep has finch in the council

[@Kammithekiller]

The thumbnail is perfect

[@jabarithegoldenlucario8841]

Nemona being in all these thumbnails is something that I must see continue. She’s gonna be a mascot at this rate.

[@casualcraftman1599]

Status was never a problem in gen 9 to me because of my Garganacl purifying salt ability.

[@Mr_Maple]

HAHA! I went to lay down for bed and saw the thumbnail and IMMEDIATELY needed to know what was going on!

[@MasterAbeer101]

That art thumbnail is brilliant

[@kefkapalazzo1]

Sleep apnea is no joke. Glad you’re living with it well

[@bdt2002gaming]

Hot take of the day: Gen 1 OU Hypnosis Gengar is objectively terrible and you’re far better off in a meta full of Thunder Wave running four attacks instead. Not only is 60% accurate sleep not worth it when it’s extremely easy to have a status absorber like lead Starmie, but gaining an extra moveslot for Psychic improves the Gengar mirror matchup significantly.

[@Stardust_Spy]

I can imagine gimmicky Garticuno sets using Psycho Shift to rest talk in order to pass sleep to the opponent. That would be funny.

[@slimestudios9748]

if only Shift was in Gen9

[@vinny4765]

I started competitive on Gen 4 online cart battles. Anything went, and you got used to dealing with sleep. What you were never prepared for was the baton pass teams using evasion boosts.

[@slimestudios9748]

inb4 the flood of "just use Aerial Ace" as though it's not buttcheeks without Technician

[@gravity_cow]

Oh hey a Pokemon is singing I wonder what it's singing abou-

[@maxxpower3d6]

Thanks for pressing enter, Jigglypuff

[@MrJtizzle136]

😴😴😴

[@Atmatan]

Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff. Jiggly jiggly. Jiggly. Puff.

[@NoGreatImport]

"Sleep really is the cousin of death" Somebody wasn't paying attention to their classic mythology. Hypnos and Thanatos (or Somnus and Mors, if you prefer Latin) siblings, not cousins.

[@ryanborn7026]

you do a good job of channeling BKC's rage in this one

[@devonchafe2764]

I'll always hate paralysis more than sleep

[@watery2211]

Maybe because there is a para clause to artificially restrict para like sleep?

[@xamfam]

I can remember being a kid playing GEN 4 with my friends and I would always spam Dark Void with Darkrai 😂 We ended up agreeing that sleep spam was broken and banned it amongst our friend group

[@casualcraftman1599]

How useful was the move Dream Eater dealing with the sleep?

[@siddhartacrowley]

And Nightmare?

[@BlueAizu_]

Dream Eater was never that useful, but Nightmare had a real niche in Gen 2 as something to make you think twice before using a RestTalk set. You'd lose HP every turn you're asleep, which isn't great when the point of using RestTalk is to not faint.

[@CiabanItReal]

I think the way to fix it without getting rid of the mechanic, is to make being put to sleep automatically restore like 1/8 or 1/16th of health, sorta like Rest, but since rest is done on purpose you get a full heal. Also, give sleep talk a bonus to moves that it uses, so a 10% boost to the power of any move that sleep talk selects.

[@dripsoup6639]

I actually already have a Manta sleep mask, and that shit's the best.

[@jacobseibert1635]

Ive always wondered, why not ban all sleep moves besides yawn and spore (and rest lol)? Both have 100% accuracy and are balanced to fit within the pokemon they exist on, while having something immune to them (grass types and just switching out). I feel that inaccurate sleep feels like a coinflip on a coinflip

[@Wizard_Lizard_]

Paralysis is more annoying than Sleep. I will die on this hill. Why does my Speed get cut AND I have a chance to just lose my turn!?

[@rossthemoss6827]

I agree sleep sometimes is overly annoying especially on mons like Darkai but Paralysis - everything basically gets a way to inflict it - unlike sleep you can have your entire team paralyzed - unlike sleep too you have no idea how many turns you are going lose as a result of it - and it halves speed

[@hfactor66]

^ This. The amount of times I have lost 3-4 turns in a row due to paralysis while doing raids in SV is immeasurable, and it never gets any less annoying every time it happens.

[@tysondennis1016]

With the fact that Amoonguss drops to RU the instant Sleep is outright banned, that shows how dependent on Spore it is.

[@AltohP]

BRO THATS THE MOST IVE EVER SEEN KELLEN, POKEMON GAMER EXTRAORDINAIRE

[@ilikestamps2978]

Never forget Xerneas with only sleep talk and moonblast

[@deltalord6969]

I always found it funny that a move called rest restores your pokemon to full health but a pokemon being put to sleep and essentially doing the exact same thing just non intentionally doesnt get its health back.

[@grunkleg.2934]

There's a difference between restful and unrestful sleep

[@ktownpunkjr.1946]

Sleeping when you want to, healthy. Sleeping because a shadow demon or some mushroom forced your mind to, less so.

[@gamingwhilebroken2355]

@@grunkleg.2934 True but I always thought sleep should heal a Pokémon for 1/16 or an 1/8 of their HP each turn. Makes the use of the status a bit more interesting (and would make rest more viable itself).

[@Julius064]

If someone roofies me I dont think ill wake up with full health

[@MonochromaticPrism]

@@gamingwhilebroken2355 I would agree with that if they removed sleep talk, as those sets occasionally see play with the current iteration of sleep.

[@Watch-0w1]

I don't understand why you can't wake up immediately after getting punched

[@Canadian_Bags_of_Milk]

Guess there truly is no sleep till brooklyn now.

[@alexlee4154]

NO SLEEP TILL GEN10!!

[@calregretsthis]

gen 5 really did add an absurd number of broken new/updated mechanics huh lol

[@ZeroZeke-]

Lmao the thumbnail is too funny 😂

[@joekewl7539]

I think more impressive than the video presentation or research (which is fantastic, make no mistake) is the incredible ability to translate every video topic into a meme for a thumbnail. How do they keep doing it?

[@mkandseptisyt4021]

11/10 thumbnail

[@NeightrixPrime]

Players: **build incredible competitive teams** WolfeyVGC: hold my Amoongus

[@baxterbruce9827]

I'm not saying that Sleep should or shouldn't stay, but if the main issue is RNG factor, I wonder why the also RNG intensive Paralysis hasn't even been glanced at, it can swing games just as much as sleep can and gets spread WAY more reliably

[@itztaytay2]

Largely because the speed drop is the "main" effect of the status while the 25% chance to keep them from moving is a very nice bonus. Unlike dropping speed para stays if they switch out which is very key in slowing down fast, offensive mons that try to come in and force damage throughout a match. Ideally the 25% removing turns effect would just be deleted entirely and maybe even revert back to para being a 75% slow instead of current 50% slow to compensate, but obviously Game Freak/TPC would have to do that

[@lvlinty]

Imo, rng has held the franchise back for decades in the competitive realm. But then the games are pretty boring to watch without rng...

[@baxterbruce9827]

@@lvlinty I would genuinely say it needs to be embraced or the Competetive community needs to do their best to axe as many aspects of RNG as possible, it doesn't make sense to zigzag like this Of course, no one ACTUALLY wants to remove all aspects of RNG, I've theorized about this format and it's boring and repetitive if you actually do your best to remove ALL RNG aspects because this removes normal damage calculations (Which has a random roll)

[@itztaytay2]

@@baxterbruce9827 Problem is they don't want to mod the actual mechanics, since they aren't the developers and Showdown! is just a *much* more convenient way to do competitive than playing on cart. So stuff like crits, damage rolls, accuracy on moves, the typechart, etc. is all untouchable. All they can really do is force you to not be able to use specific mons/moves/abilities/items in specific tiers

[@baxterbruce9827]

@@itztaytay2 So did they remove the EXISTING mods with this sleep ban to be accurate to the claim they don't want to mod the game? The versions of Sleep and Freeze Clauses that existed before this were enforced by mods to the system that stopped anything that could inflict those statuses from going off if they already existed. They didn't NOT let you click the sleep move, they just forced it to always miss (Or, not proc in the case of the rare sleep secondary effects)

[@oscen335]

Bro was waiting for a sleep sponsor to make this vid

[@MrIsleNFair]

Formats really despise Darkrai huh? It was its signature move, now it's its ulterior motive. Darkrai deserves all the grudge, alongside Regigigas

[@Dibalia]

Felt really bad for Leonard Craft for losing in the Indianapolis regionals semi-finals last week, mostly due to unlucky flinch and sleep. I know that luck is part of the competitive scene, but I think he was the better player, so it just felt cheap.

[@mariomasv]

Lol, smogon trying to define what pokemon is since the 2000's. Some things never change.

[@sptflcrw8583]

?

[@thestonedgeek8928]

What'll never change is bad players crying over being bad.

[@mariomasv]

@@thestonedgeek8928 the ladder is/was a joke, never had a problem to rank up when I wanted to. It's not a "being bad" issue, it's a "Smogon is trash" issue.

[@mariomasv]

@@sptflcrw8583 ¿?

[@thestonedgeek8928]

@@mariomasv sure Jan.

[@ThePauperGuy]

I'll never forget completely sweeping my friends with all their legendaries with my ninjask and breeloom and cloyster back in gen 5, good times, good times

[@arejaybee]

ou should just ban everything thats not tackle

[@Matpit18]

Funny how the two generations with the most power creep are the ones that have sleep banned

[@facesoffearbrewing1229]

Relicanth is GOAT. Headsmashing other Pokemon with Rock Head ability until viagra doesn't work anymore. That thing is a beast!!!

[@lolzant397]

Huh.

[@riccardopelino]

Does this have anything to do with sleep moves banned?

[@homenvy1026]

​@@riccardopelinoobviously it does, head smash is a sleep move with recoil as everyone knows, I am smhing my sm head h my shake.

[@y0mir]

@@riccardopelino headsmash puts you permanently to sleep

[@riccardopelino]

@@homenvy1026 and any mon that had it has sheer force, because you need sheer force to slam your head a hard as you can into your opponent lol

[@Imamotherfreakingavocado]

Love to see that hating sleep has remained consistant over the years

[@pride_mitochondria3921]

Everything will be banned until OU is just Gholdengo and Kingambit.

[@moonjelly5]

They're the Halqifibrax of Pokemon.

[@grunkleg.2934]

I mean you could just get good and build teams with Pokemon that beat them

[@rjstram]

Nope smoothbrain smogon players want only the accepted meta. No thinking allowed. All teams the same. All moves the same. Worship the holy meta. No having fun playing the game. Only meta. I gave up on Smogon when they banned dynamax. An entire generation's main mechanic just banned cuz it changed their precious meta too much.

[@jamesgiles4517]

​@rjstram "boo hoo hoo I'm not allowed to auto win with a mechanic which was *clearly not designed with singles in mind and are ignoring the part that it's OP"*

[@Yas-gu1pj]

​​​​​@@rjstramah yes the good old 'they want to ban pokemon to limit the meta' argument aka the most stupid argument against smogon, smogon bans things not to limit the meta but make the meta more unlimited since if there is one broken thing than every team wants to win uses it, than there is no team building around cool idias the only idia is 'use the op thing and counter the op thing' which limits team building and stops the meta from getting healthy

[@dragoniteknight4043]

In my opinion, sleep, while extremely powerful, was never the issue. Yes, it is luck based. Everything in Pokemon is luck based, damage rolls, critical hits etc. It sets a bad precedent - if sleep is banned, than what next? Paralysis? confusion? Infatuation? What about Hydrapple's Fickle Beam attack, isn't a move with a 20% chance to double in power up to 160 OP? Then what about Zap Cannon or Focus Blast? If you wanted to avoid luck based mechanics, you should probably have played TemTem instead. Darkrai and Iron Valiant should have been brought up to Ubers, not OU. And as for Hisuian Lilligant, to deal with it, it's more about keeping the weather in check than anything else, though safety goggles can come in handy.

[@davidshain8673]

And they still won't ban stealth rock in Gen 4.

[@deathblowringo4168]

In Pokemon Stadium, The duration of sleep is reduced to 1-3 turns. And In Pokemon Stadium 2, it lasts 2-4 turns like in Pokémon Crystal's Battle Tower.

[@Setsuzoku]

If you ask me both sleep AND freeze are awful. They should've both been replaced by drowsy and frostbite respectively, the much better alternatives that were in Legends Arceus.

[@TyrantWesker]

It's kinda funny how the game with no competitive play is the one that proposed some really nice fixes for competitive play.

[@TheShardsFamily]

You can get around sleep ban by using rest, sleep talk an psycho shift

[@tomsimpkins1211]

One day there'll be paralysis clause, burn clause, damage clause..

[@energyzer_bunny1913]

I literally took a nap after watching this video.

[@triviszla1536]

31:55 “No longer does one have to embark on the RNG dependent roller coaster” Seriously? How many of us have lost to a 90% accurate move missing? Or way too many flinches? Or our opp getting a crit? Or losing a speed tie or getting a bad damage roll? There’s more than just that but this whole game is 90% RNG dependent. Sleep just happens to be this generation’s villain I guess.

[@thestonedgeek8928]

You just sound bad at the game. Have you tried not sucking?

[@thestonedgeek8928]

Try being good at the game. Works for me.

[@triviszla1536]

@@thestonedgeek8928 Tell that to every top 8 VGC player who has ever lost to any of the luck based mechanics I just mentioned. 💀 Counter argument: Sleep isn’t broken, you’re just bad and can’t play around it so you welcome the ban. Have you tried not getting spored? Maybe actually try getting good.

[@thestonedgeek8928]

@@triviszla1536 lmao ok buddy. Did any of those top 8 vgc players(not the topic btw) then publicly cry about it? No. So what's your point again? Because mine is to stop crying over the sleep ban. Counter-Counter argument: I never said I was for or against the ban. I'm indifferent to it. What I am against is bad player crying about it.

[@triviszla1536]

@@thestonedgeek8928 Oh brother, you’re just yapping now. Clearly you misinterpreted the entire comment I left and now you feel you have an obligation to challenge my opinion. Here’s the thing, *I don’t care about the ban either.* My issue was the wording used and the banning of things that are deemed “broken” when a lot of the mechanics are just RNG based anyway. All the scenarios I listed were examples of things no one has control over, so why don’t the other things get banned? Does that help clear the air and calm you down? Counter argument to your counter argument: My point in mentioning the top 8 VGC players was because you simply told me to “get good” so I brought *them* up seeing as they are 1) infinitely better than you or I and b) have much more to gain or lose by the luck based mechanics. However, you added a requirement that they needed to “publicly cry about it”, as if that changes the fact that several have lost to the very mechanics I listed. My point still stands, you just don’t want to see it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@ZeRedSpy]

Banning sleep feels really weird to me. Like we’re not banning confusion or paralysis or serene grace flinching and all of those can randomly disable you for multiple turns in a row. We’re not banning crits for completely upending matches that should have gone the other way. Every damaging move has a damage roll and that can also determine a match - let alone accuracy rolls. Sure sleep is the most egregious of these RNG factors but Pokémon is chalk-full of bad RNG mechanics that allow for luck to determine the results of a competitive match. Hell OHKO moves aren’t even banned in some formats and they’re the definition of RNG.

[@RebelTrooperHoth]

OHKO moves are only allowed in AG because they’re lame.

[@marceloasensiofilho3833]

Personally I am against the ban on sleep as a whole. As frustrating as it can be it is part of the game

[@june9914]

Mythicals are part of the game but they’re banned from the literal official competitive mode, even the ones that have no longer been made event locked. Smogon is unofficial but surely you can agree strategies that want pure luck like spamming fissure or evasion aren’t good four a competitive gamemode coz they add nothing but rolling dice in the game, and idk bout you but 60% chance two practically lose the game or have a serious hole punched in your team feels like a coinflip

[@marceloasensiofilho3833]

@@june9914 I also believe mythicals should be allowed too. With the stronger ones like Arceus only as limited legends and the rest avaliable always. RNG is part of the game as much as anyone likes or dislikes it

[@thestonedgeek8928]

​​@@marceloasensiofilho3833you sound really bad at the game tbh.

[@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283]

​@@marceloasensiofilho3833Sure but if RNG goes unchecked the game becomes unplayable. That's why it often gets limited as much as possible because there's not much fun in losing not because you got outplayed or outsmarted, because you got unlucky ONE time and your team gets wiped because of it

[@munchrai6396]

As long as you can build your team around it, a bit of RNG is completely fine. Both OHKOs and Evasion moves are as potent as they are because the counters are incredibly niche and don't match up well against common strategies. Sleep Talk is still a very useful strategy on modern Pokemon like Ursaluna. Mind you, the massive drop in cleric options in Gen 9 really feels like the breaking point for me because that's what I'd use most often when I play. Then again, we have competitive Pokemon that entirely ignore status, but I'd argue that those Pokemon invalidate defensive play overall, so they ain't the healthiest for the game. I feel very similarly about King's Rock. There's like less than 10 Pokemon that can take advantage of the strategy and most of them, which gives those mons an identity over the standard sweeper sets. It also allows for more teambuilding variety because Serene Grace is rarer than I'd like it to be

[@TheAweDude1]

Sleep is so annoying that on one of my Gen 3 teams, I actually run Early Bird on Houndoom, just because every Gengar it would try to trap would just use Hypnosis and then switch to TTar.

[@feIIas]

I feel like sleep isn't broken, it's just not fun since every part of it is a dice roll. Do you hit? Dice roll. Do you wake up? Dice roll. If it was more consistent, i don't think it'd be as annoying.

[@MegaDarkness5000]

The same can be said about paralyzing, and that can be spread around to each Pokémon with your speed being cut. (Gen 9 did nerf it a lil on the speed cut.)

[@spac3dout320]

Watching this video after pulling an all nighter might have been a bad idea