The Most Controversial Board Game Mechanism

[@BlackDouglas1000]

I think legacy games originated with wargame campaigns and then roleplaying games. In an RPG we can have a shared world, published or created by the players. The palters may leave the game and the game story may reach a conclusion. The changes in the world, however, stay in its history. New players can be introduced to a known world but still learn of what happened in the past 10 years of game time, famous NPCs have been eliminated or retired, new powers rise as old fall, and the names of the previous players become part of the lore. It seems like this is what you are aiming for with this project. A big task to put into a board game. I am going to look into it.

[@cogitodesign]

Interesting perspective, thank you for your comment. I haven't found anything from Rob Daviau that mentions these as specific inspirations but I can certainly see the connection that these games have to the concept of game-to-game permanence. Thanks again for commenting ☺

[@shannimarmen8201]

I like your concept. Looking forward to seeing what you have to bring

[@cogitodesign]

Thanks so much!

[@Luna_Everywhere]

I do feel a lot of legacy games - especially ones where stuff can happen in variable orders - would benefit from being resettable. Resealable zip-lock card packs, those plastic removable stickers, an "out of circulation" section in the box, etc.

[@cogitodesign]

Thanks for your comment. I think many people feel like this, people like their games to be endlessly repayable and see board games as a collection rather than disposable items. That being said, if they were all to be repayable, I think some of these games would lose an important element from them. Rob Daviau does an interesting talk about Pandemic Legacy and he discusses this. One of the first thing he asks players to do is to destroy a card because then players know that the decisions they make from then on in the game will have permanent, meaningful consequences. If a game is fully resettable, this tension is lessened. Ultimately, I think it depends on the experience you're trying to create. Thanks again for comment!

[@Luna_Everywhere]

@@cogitodesign I never quite agreed with this view, and it's took me till now to articulate why. I once had this pack of pokemon-themed 2-player scratch off games. Those were disposable games, and I didnt mind that. I eventually used up the pack and couldnt play the game any more, and that was okay. What, I had to think, is the difference between that and a modern legacy game? And the answer was way more obvious than I thought at first. Those pokemon scratchers were 5 dollars a pack, your average legacy game is at least 40 dollars, if not as much as double or triple that. Thats a lot of money for something with a limited number of plays, especially when you compare it to other board games, which for the same money give you as many plays as you want, or a videogame, where ones you can only play a limited number of times tend to be free art peices, and the 40-60 dollar releases tend to be playable over and over, and the violation of that through things like always-online games going down is rightly maligned. Board Games are just too expensive a hobby for a limited use game to feel like a good deal, at least to me.

[@cogitodesign]

@@Luna_Everywhere There’s certainly some truth to this and it’s something I’ve heard a lot about games like Pandemic Legacy. I’m not sure I fully agree. While value is obviously subjective, If we take a modern legacy game like Pandemic Legacy, it takes around 18-24 games to complete it (each lasting about an hour). That’s many hours of entertainment for around $50. When you compare that to the price: hour of entertainment ratio of a cinema ticket for a 2 hour movie it doesn’t seem as unreasonable. I think another thing that can change one’s view on this is the size of your game collection. If you have a few games that you try to play passionately and repeatedly then a legacy game can seem like a poor deal in comparison. I know I must have played Carcassonne over 100 times and it cost less than Pandemic Legacy Season 1! But if you have a large collection of games and each maybe only sees the table once or twice a year then it can seem less important that a game only gives you approx 18 experiences. Rob Daviau argues similarly, saying that he didn’t want to design a game that you could only play 20 times but that he wanted to design a game that you would actually want to play 20 times (I’m paraphrasing this quote but the sentiment is the same). However, I think you’re completely right. the legacy aspect does need to be considered carefully in order to give players value for money. Something that we’ve been very careful about in Solar 175 is to make sure that it is an endlessly replayable experience. There are permanent changes but you will never run out of games or have to throw the game away. We want to use very high quality components in all our games and making it disposable just didn’t sit right with us. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@PixelPenGamer]

The biggest problem with Legacy games is that you are trying to convert a permanent possession (a board game, that usually costs a significant amount) into a subscription model, which is by itself a toxic design. It relies on destroying (or changing, in your case), and allowing for more consuming at the cost of permanence. While I understand the idea, I would still strongly limit this to online board game sites.

[@cogitodesign]

Thanks for the feedback. I think a lot of people feel like this about legacy games for sure.

[@PixelPenGamer]

@@cogitodesign Gotta say, did not expect a response on a 2-year old video :) I will add (as many have in the comments from what I see), it sounds like a healthier option to not enforce destruction of pieces, and instead create a progressively more complex boardgame (in the same mentality as buying TCG booster packs to expand your collection). That way, you get an ongoing, evolving stories, as well as the permanence of keeping everything, even if it is not replay-able.

[@cogitodesign]

I couldn’t agree more. I think a big part of board gaming is building a collection that you can dip into whenever you want and pull out the perfect game for any occasion. So the destruction of components is anathema to this. With Solar 175, we tried to lean into the fun discovery element of legacy games that allows your game to grow in a unique way but at the same time not to destroy any components nor to ever have a game that is ‘complete’. We try to reply to all comments no matter how old the video is as we very much appreciate people watching ☺️

[@PixelPenGamer]

Hm, then I must have misunderstood the explanation of your game somewhat (admittedly it was on the tail-end of a 5-hour boardgame design binge). I quite like the approach described in the comment! Also, thanks for being a part of my boardgame design journey (first playtests tomorrow!)

[@cogitodesign]

Thanks so much and good luck playtesting your board game!

[@Daemonworks]

I love the idea of them, a game that's played as an extended campaign is amazing. But the practice of permanently destroying/altering/etc game components... nope. Not in this lifetime. While I doubt it's the intent for most designers, with the expense of many modern board games, it /feels/ like planned obsolescence, a marketing gimmick to sell restock components like printer cartridges, or a way to cut secondary market. It also makes introducing the game to somebody new a royal pain. You can't really introduce them to the start of the game if you've already been playing it, at least not without buying another copy. Also, as they're sort of designed around the idea of a specifc group of people playing over and over, introducing somebody entirely new part way into overall run has so much potential to create some issues. There's a group of folks out there for whom none of these are things that would bother them, and more power to 'em, but... Mind you, on a computer, where you can reset to 0 on a new save? Most of problems just vanish. Of course, there's some issues with computer board games, but at least it's an entirely different set of issues.

[@cogitodesign]

It certainly seems to divide people! You've hit the nail on the head as to why many board gamers are put off by the concept 👍 Thanks for commenting!

[@mcsegobia]

Loved it! Interesting idea of having an improved custom board after the campaign is done in Solar 175. I'm currently playing My City and is nice to know that comes with an "eternal" board on one side, seems like an easy solution as well, for the value issue. I also wonder why we don't see more small box games as legacy, I would think it would be an easier sell for something "disposable" if it cost less than $30.

[@cogitodesign]

Thanks so much for your comment, that's a really excellent point! We really enjoyed 'My City' too. Really good solution there, having an "eternal" board. Would love to see more games like this!

[@johanneskrenner8908]

one could argue that the Escape room games (exit for instance) are cheap "consumable games" (

[@mcsegobia]

@@johanneskrenner8908 that's true! And I heard that they're really good. Not a legacy game, but one-time use.

[@cogitodesign]

@@johanneskrenner8908 I agree, the connotations are much better with the word 'consumable'.

[@anthony449]

Dang now i feel like a clue legacy would be cool

[@cogitodesign]

That would be amazing!

[@MichelWild]

I like the idea of Legacy Games, but I haven't tried one and probably won't either. Just because it usually is very hard in our playgroup to have the same amount of people or even the same people at the same time in one room. :/

[@cogitodesign]

Fair enough, they're not everyones cup of tea. There are some games that account for the changing of numbers of people etc across a campaign e.g., Solar 175 but it's pretty rare. Thanks for your comment 👍

[@ImaginaryMdA]

I really like this series! There's a bit of an issue with the audio. This was not present in the last videos. Hope this helps!

[@cogitodesign]

Really pleased to hear you like this series, thanks so much for your support! Thanks for the feedback about the audio, I've actually just bought a new mic to help improve the audio for these videos. I'll use this new mic in all videos from now on which should solve this issue (hopefully!). Thanks again and happy new year!

[@Bryan-ml]

Love your videos! Would love to watch you talk some day about different game ending triggers and how they affect tension and humor during/after a match

[@cogitodesign]

Thanks so much for your support. That's a great idea for a video, thanks I'll definitely bear it in my mind for the future!

[@Nixxiechan]

I'm on the flip side of the opinions. I loved Charterstone when I played it and am looking for a static group so I can play through it all over again.

[@cogitodesign]

Cool! Thanks for commenting!

[@zmollon]

I love the oath idea of having a game that changes over time and between games but keeping the core mechanisms the same. It's something that at this point seems too far out of my grasp in terms of my game just because of how daunting it is to you balance all the various scenarios that you could introduce but something that's going to continue to look on the back of my brain. Thanks for another great video

[@cogitodesign]

You’re very welcome, thanks very much!!

[@artxiom]

I think the trick of Oath is that it is inherently unbalanced but tends to auto-balance itself through player interaction ;) It's a pretty genius anti-design in my opinion - more based on how real life works.

[@sebasculin3739]

I do like the ideas used in Legacy Games; I dont feel the definition you gave is specific enough; these ideas would have been called RPG or Campaign elements in the past. I feel that Legacy Games simply introduced a deeper use of components to the board game space (beyond character sheets), to include destruction and transformation. Many RPG/ City Builder/ God Sims/ Immersive Sim games had permanent elements; such as Harvest Moon, Sim City, XCOM, Spore etc (the game itself) changed with player input and outcomes. There is a lot of misplaced credit calling the ideas innovative and wholly original. Regarding Dynamic Video Games; where the same game is replayed, there is an entire Roguelike genre. Maps, enemies/NPCs and items change each run, but your character may keep their buffs. If you havent I would recommend trying Slay the Spire or Inscryption.

[@cogitoergomeeple4298]

This is a fair point I think we should have spoken more about this part of the mechanic’s history in RPGs! Thanks for the deeper specifics on this topic!

[@kitcarpo4745]

Sorry, between the echo in the room and the background music I couldn't go past 40 seconds.

[@Big_Dai]

@6:53 oh wow! ....jeremy stonemeiher invented TCG Boosters!! EDIT: Surprise surprise... This was ultimately an ad.