The most CONTROVERSIAL fight in NHRL history: Lynx v Cat-Tastrophe 2

Calvin Iba's multiple world champion - and widely regarded greatest pound for pound robot on the planet - Lynx exits the August competition in controversy.
Under NHRL rules each competitor gets one 'unstick' where the house bot will attempt to free the robot. Once this 'unstick' has taken place, if the robot get stuck and cannot move for ten seconds they are counted out and it is classed as a knockout.
All parts of the cage arena are classified as part of the match so if they become hazards, including lights, they are something competitors have to take into account. As Lynx was high centred and not moving after its one free unstick it didn't move for over ten seconds and was counted out, knocked out of the match and out of the competition.
Lynx v Cat-Tastrophe 2 from August 2023 event.
#nhrl #engineering #robotics #robotfight #robotfight #robotfighting #fightingrobot #battlebots
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[@davidbuckley334]

One hand: With this match, I think Calvin now takes over the "most aggressive driver" title. Really should have chilled out after already getting stuck before. Other hand: This KO countout, even if technically correct, was much less lenient than others throughout the day. Usually they don't start until there seems to be little or no chance of movement, but this one must have started very quickly after getting high centered. Some fights in the same day had robots go the full three minutes without really moving, with no countout. With all the unintentional arena hazards involved, this seems like it should have been a good time for that kind of leniency, rather than such a strict countout.

[@AliceHalley]

I feel like the countout started so quickly because it was obvious from the earlier instance of Lynx getting stuck in the same position that it wouldn't be able to move without help. The house robot helped that time, but it was clear in an instant that they got stuck again. Usually the count is delayed because of ambiguity, but it was very clear that they were stuck again in the same way as before. So I imagine that's why the countdown was so strict.

[@wmose3694]

@@AliceHalley i realize this is a old comment but you cant have 2 sets of rules for how count outs start otherwise this removes the ability for someone to spin down their weapon let motors/batteries/speed controllers cool off for a moment then go full ham to get free if the count out is instant bc the situation is the same a ten count is not much time a ten count should start after a robot is proven stuck or has been immobile for a set amount of time otherwise any time a bot stops a 10 count should start aka robot shark swim or die fight/move or be counted out

[@The_Curious_Cat]

Yep, I think that's what made this controversial. On the replay the countdown starts like 1 second after Lynx gets stuck. No waiting to see if he can wiggle his way out of it, nothing. Lynx took around 12, maybe 14 seconds to start moving again. So the countdown started almost exactly as he got stuck, which is very odd because usually the refs even ask "can you move? Can you free yourself?" before starting the count. In this case they were very quick starting the countdown, which is very odd.

[@Leto_0]

​@@The_Curious_Cat Except it was obvious that it couldn't free itself. And since we're questioning rules, why should refs ask them if they can free themselves? In what situation would someone get stuck and not immediately try to free themselves? If someone isn't moving they're stuck. Nobody sits still in the box if they can help it. It seems like asking them if they can get unstuck is just an extralegal way to give them more time, so that the fight can keep going

[@The_Curious_Cat]

@@Leto_0but that's the way it goes. See other fights and the referees say they are going to start the countdown, they don't immediatly start it soon someone doesn't show movement. They do that because we are here to see fights, so if they can free themselves, cool. If not they countdown. It's the same when someone stopped after getting wrecked, they ask if they can move. Even if they know they probably can't because the wheels flew off. Again, people are here to see fights and carnage, not see fights ending in 10 seconds.

[@crashmaxx1987]

I think the count out wasn't clear to the drivers. Cat-Tastrophe might have hit him sooner or tapped out if they realized what was happening.

[@TeamMutuallyAssuredDestruction]

I was initially outraged by the outcome but after rewatching the fight I changed my mind. Putting aside the discussion of whether or not the light strip should be removed, and no disrespect to Calvin, but he used up his only unstick and didn’t play it safe afterwards. He had the match won but got too greedy.

[@dippyfresh1116]

Very similar about how Underbit3 lost to Kimba way back in 2021

[@Mr_E402]

Yeah but that count out was quick

[@UnpatternedGarbage]

"If I ignore one of the arguments that Lynx was robbed, then Lynx wasn't robbed!" Yeah great logic dude

[@benpurcell4935]

@@UnpatternedGarbageLynx got stuck to end the match at 2:15 and doesn’t start moving until about 2:00. Unfortunately it was the right call and Lynx was knocked out by countdown.

[@UnpatternedGarbage]

@@benpurcell4935 Actually, for BattleBots at least, the bot must be immobilized for 20 seconds to lose the match, only the last 10 of which are counted aloud.

[@helendejong7626]

The count out was obviously unclear to the drivers, the announcers, and the fans. I think the controversy would have been mitigated if it was more clear that Calvin was being counted out, and then KO'd. Maybe NHRL could introduce a system for the referee (that isn't possible to be knocked out by the bots!), that notifies the drivers and the announcers that a count out is happening. The other driver could have gone in for an unstick earlier then if he didn't want Lynx to be KO'd.

[@dogjutsufpv3813]

This would require some work/investment, but what about a 'KO clock' for all the cages that the ref initiates (and can cancel) via a button (with fallback to current method)? Either literal clock with digits, or some very obvious visual/audio indication of the count. Not only would make countdown very clear to both competitors and spectators, but would help all KO countdowns be more consistent.

[@aria8928]

As i understand they already have tablets with a tap and forfiet buttons infront of both drivers. Adding some UI for 'X bot immobile for...' then the count

[@aria8928]

* tap and unstuck i meant

[@ALloydRH]

Conclusion: Get sturdier lights

[@familyoftacticaldroids309]

Heck, even a higher ceiling. :P The box's size is fine around the width, but the height needs work, it seems. This was the Tiny Version of Riptide vs Hypershock to an extent. :P

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

Part of the game though!

[@aria8928]

What is stopping the lights from being placed far side of the lexan

[@mr-huggy]

Lynx was immobilised by the light after he had his unstick for 5 seconds before the ref counted him out, it was only when Cat-Tastrophe knocked him he became mobile after the count out had happened. Sadly that was the end of Lynx.

[@Vivitribal_lame]

Something weird about this is that Money Shot and Ice Blade knocked down lights earlier in their fights that day but I believe they paused those matches and the lights were taken out, but then resumed.

[@GrumpleBots]

According to the rules they should not have. I don't agree with it, and I think the fights should be paused while the lights are removed.

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

Part of the game, like terrain lol. Build a walking robot just incase 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@The_Queen_Chrysalis]

I'd say, put a plexiglass door setup (much like on the side the bots get put in through) up on top so when vertical spinners launch something, the lights are protected, and prevented from falling into the arena.

[@zakumaster]

Consistent application of the seasons rules is paramount here and as long as things are updated for next season I cant be to mad.

[@user-hn1tm5nf7l]

Wait .... they have hanging lights??? Let's use those engineering skills to you know recess the lights or ohhhh maybe have the lights outside a clear top???

[@Leto_0]

But those wouldn't crash to the floor with dramatic effect

[@JoshSimpson]

And I feel like lot of folks are keeping losing the humanity aspect out of all of this. Everyone's feelings are validated and recognized while we are blessed with the opportunity to have new/adjourned rules and adjustments to ensure the competition's integrity and long-term sustainability. Thank you for everyone who has been involved including the competitors. We will remember this for sure and make sure our future competitors will learn from this as part of their journey.

[@D.Jay.]

Sometimes you hit the box, and sometimes the box hits back.

[@MostlyHarmlessAK]

I really think the count down should be in the open so the audience can see it for 1. 2. They say you can't "gift" your win to the person you "beat" but you can gift the win to the next person you fight. Seems pretty weak. 3. They are an entertainment company and they should be interested in doing things that are entertaining and this decision was antifun

[@genettatinkernfab8190]

In many matches, bots take bites out of the side rail, out of each other, out of... everything. There's been countless eliminations in past NHRL events because a bot ended up high-centered and immobilized without a save, on bits of basically everything. This one's little different, even if it's a lot more spectacular than "got counted out with a bit of wheel shoved under the bot"

[@DxBlack]

Lets be honest: why the every-loving-heck would you install the lights I N S I D E the cage when the top can be clear too. 😒

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

Well where were you when they designed this? 😂

[@stonefish98]

The top has the air extraction system in it, and probably a bunch of cables and such too.

[@Leto_0]

For fun maybe?

[@Leto_0]

If you really think this is a matter of poor engineering, then we should question _your_ intelligence

[@wristofkings]

Sucks for Calvin, he had the match wrapped up and really should've driven more carefully around the fallen lights. Reminds me of Cobalt vs DUCK, no one wants to lose (or win) the match in such a disappointing way but it was a fair call at the end of the day.

[@samuelmigas200]

Based on what I can see in the video Ref starts countdown at 2:03 of the remaining time (2:22 timestamp of video), then immediately canceled. Ref starts countdown at 1:58 of the remaining time (2:27 timestamp of the video). At the same time Lynx Shows motion. Lynx is controlled moving from 1:58 to 1:49 of the remaining time on the part of the lamp. Cat-Tastrophe 2 engaged Lynx at 1:49 of the remaining time (2:36 timestamp of the video). I used to see Show Motion Graphic countdown in some NHRL videos where even the commentators were talking about it when it started, why it was not used in this fight?

[@beescheese9716]

Shame this happened to lynx, that’s my takeaway! Thankfully because it happened to lynx, it’s probably never going to happen again

[@dippyfresh1116]

Key word: *Probably*

[@beescheese9716]

@@dippyfresh1116 eh it’s not gonna happen trust me. If it wasn’t lynx nobody would care

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

@@beescheese9716is Lynx one of the top competitors thus being the reason why they would only care if it happened to him?

[@beescheese9716]

@@JosePineda-jn8jk I’m not saying they as in NHRL, I’m saying if this happened to a robot that wasn’t as popular i don’t think there would be a controversy

[@ddade11]

A great fight and too bad for Lynx, but the rules were followed consistently as written. And this was a great followup explanation video helping to clarify what happened. Great job @NHRL in everything that you do. The heat of the moment is tough to move through and we know that Lynx has another chance. Looking forward to September's event!

[@colemanchristy2770]

The ref kept counting when Cat-Tastrophe 2 engaged Lynx, which is supposed to stop the countout

[@ddade11]

@@colemanchristy2770 But Cat-Tastrophe 2's actions did not change the result. Lynx did not get out of being high centered until after the countdown. The Lynx team risked the fight by being aggressive. While I applaud their determination, that choice cost them the fight. Should we blame the ref for not counting the taps by the opponent? Or blame the team that already got stuck once and knew there was a risk of getting stuck again? I am in favor of saying Lynx should not have gotten into the situation in the first place and needed the other bot's help to get unstuck. Their actions started the countdown, they are responsible for the results.

[@martpr2012]

this one was an upsetting one to watch. the referees failed to communicate to the drivers clearly what was actually going on. not to say the decision was wrong but it was handled poorly and caused upset in doing so.

[@marmaladearmadillo]

The question remains though, why didn't Lynx's movement while hung up on the fallen light count as movement? It was restricted but it moved by what looked like its own length at least. Shouldn't the countdown have stopped?

[@robertgraham6481]

The movement came after the 10 second countdown had already passed, so it had already been knocked out by the time it moved. It started moving once it received a hit from the opponent bot, but it was too late at that point.

[@cameronreid8383]

It was still for much longer than 10 seconds.

[@offbeatrobotics]

​@@robertgraham6481it usually takes a ref at least few seconds to start a count, though more commonly quite a bit of match time elapses before a count starts. And currently Depth Charge vibrating in a corner counts as movement.

[@draegonspawn5361]

If you go to the 7 minute area you can see a replay with aan indicator of the time lynx doesnt move. He doesnt move for almost 20 seconds. The drivers sense of time was diluted with the excitement of competition.

[@stonefish98]

@@offbeatrobotics I'm looking forward to Depth Charge's next fight going to count immediately and lasting 10.1 seconds. I like the concept, and I like Dustin, but enough is enough. The bot has never had a fair fight. Mobility or GTFO.

[@nateboutin1333]

Just put another pc sheet below the lights and you'll never have a broken light again.

[@stonefish98]

You'll also never have any LiPo smoke extraction again.

[@nateboutin1333]

@@stonefish98 just put some vents in it... It really wouldn't be that hard.

[@ragingtako]

Exactly when in the match was lynx counted out? At 2;24- 2;29 in the match I could understand if that's why people are calling controversial but 2;14-1;59( when Cat-Tastrophe 2 made contact) or 1;57 when lynx started to move was like 17-19 seconds on that light. Just wanted to know if I'm missing something.

[@Jonnyonthespot123]

If I'm in a competition and myself and my opponent both decide the judges or referees were wrong and I decide that my opponent should go through to the next round instead of me, what's wrong with that? Why is there a rule against it?

[@TeamMutuallyAssuredDestruction]

It puts people in an awkward spot where they may feel obligated to give their opponent the win if everyone else in the room disagrees with the decision. This is consistent with every other bot event where the only time the fight outcomes are changed is if there's an error in the brackets.

[@Twotwentytwoproductions]

It opens up the competition to possible corruption where the winner of a fight might get bribed or harassed into giving their spot to the person they beat.

[@Jonnyonthespot123]

​@@TeamMutuallyAssuredDestructionFantastic answer thank you

[@Jonnyonthespot123]

​@@TwotwentytwoproductionsGreat point thanks

[@DavidStruveDesigns]

Yeah NHRL definitely needs to take a leaf out of Battlebots and Robot Wars playbook when it comes down to count-outs: Give a loud audible warning that the refs need to see movement else they'll start counting, and then after a few seconds start a loud countdown, perhaps utilising some kind of countdown clock visible to the drivers or flashing lights (or even get the crowd involved with counting along). That way there's absolutely NO doubt when a countdown starts, how long you have and when you've actually been counted out.

[@MrPinguinzz]

MVP of the fight is the person that designed the lights mount

[@IronOre33]

The ref just ignored the question, so what the lights are part if the cage, Lynx was, indeed moving, that doesn’t change the fact that the lights are part of the cage but the red shouldn’t have kept counting when Lynx was moving

[@jakewilliams1921]

Why redesign the mountings for the lights? Just put a layer of lexan at the current height and raise the height of the lights. If its too dim, you dont have to worry about the lights getting hit anymore, get brighter lights.

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

I mean gets stuck at 2:10 then gets bumped at 2:12 and stops moving again due to being stuck on the light. Then Lynx is stuck on the light until 2:26 when he gets bumped off by Cat-2. Seems like a timeout and then some lol.

[@twizted6921]

The lights shouldn't even be in the Box they should be on the outside of the box

[@IronOre33]

Fr

[@Flameypig]

The hate must have been crazy😭

[@dippyfresh1116]

I was watching it live. Discord was flat out insane. So insane that I got temporarily muted for one day 💀

[@NHRL]

Open Discord, close Discord.

[@dippyfresh1116]

@@NHRLapologies for asking but is there anything in the works to prevent controversies like this from happening again?

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

@@dippyfresh1116yeah tell the refs to make sure they don’t let the popular guy lose 🤣 I mean it was a legit count out, the competitor just didn’t know it 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@Leto_0]

​@@dippyfresh1116 lmao what are you a reporter? Obviously they're always trying to improve

[@TidalWavesLion]

hopefully they put like wire or pike plexiglass over the lights to prevent a repeat of this. Also normally you can hear the refs counting down, this time you can't.

[@mattxzilla3938]

4:30 A buffet of good hosting.

[@BladeLigerV]

I do agree with the ruling, but Lynx didn't "free" itself. And i think the lights should be counted as fair. Everything in the box is part if the box, nomatter where it goes afterwards or during.

[@familyoftacticaldroids309]

Oh man, I don't know anything about NHRL but to see that Lynx was booted for this one is super sad considering Calvin's reputation. I do find it odd that here, they wouldn't remove lights or pause fights to allow those lights to be removed. It's a small box, with smaller robots, but people who see Calvin KNOW of Lynx's power, and there are probably other robots with that same strength (heck, in BattleBots, Riptide threw Hypershock into the freaking CEILING and these are 250 pound robots in a way larger amount of space! Neither belong to Calvin, though Riptide is really similar to Lynx in design and weapon, it just shows how strong these machines can be with the right angle, weapon, etc). Though it's funny to find out that he will return on my birthday. Maybe I should try seeing about an NHRL trip sometime, though I've already got plans set for this year (and at least around when BattleBots season 8 starts to film if all goes okay), since while I'm not a builder, I do like seeing all these various robots.

[@SnootyWimbledon]

It was not clean, but definitely a win for Cat-Tastrophe 2

[@jk6006]

i love robots that fight

[@k2_robotics]

Robots broke apart and humans make mistakes, this is the bussiness. We all love Lynx and Calvin but watching the match live I thought he made a mistake driving such a low robot ontop the light bars. The rules can't be made to let someone win, Calvin can't win forever.

[@ohheyitsfee1205]

Thank you! Lol

[@davidultis306]

Calvin can still qualify Lynx hopefully! Someone needs to test box limits.. just maybe not during tournament fights! 😅

[@yrtepgold]

Why is the referee countdown indicated by a hand motion in a dimly lit room? That referee is not setup for success.

[@ohheyitsfee1205]

Thats my baby! You go josh lolol. I wish i was there driving with you and not sick outta my mind.

[@DJprofessorK]

What? They have rules and followed the rules. If you boo the rules go make your own event

[@darkstardavros]

Wow. I've gotten so use to the larger bots that I'd forgotten that these little guys exist. Rad fight but yea. The ref is right. You stop moving for whatever reason. You get counted out. Although destroying the arena before getting stuck on it is probably not a good game plan. Lol

[@mateocortanage]

Twisted Metal

[@Gio98art]

Worst call ever. Simply bc the countdown wasn't at all mentioned Edit: and then the discord mod appeared explaining it all. Unclear rules. Bad call.

[@noviranger239]

Pramheda vs Recalled is more controversial.

[@derektran9404]

Lynx was reengaged and moved a bot length during the countout which should've stopped said countout. In the rules it specifies a robot reengaging or movement (not an amount of movement just movement) should stop the count. The ref continued counting anyways. It's NHRL's job to ensure the lights are secured and the match is run properly, none of which happened. Saying "oh we'll do better next time" must make someone who has to pay money to fly out feel so much better.

[@stonefish98]

When this kind of cock-up happens, people tend to get upset and say "They don't care. They don't have a plan to fix it. They need to be up front, admit fault, and do better next time." They did exactly that. You're still upset.

[@derektran9404]

@@stonefish98Show me how they fixed things? They made a vague statement about improving things and have not laid out a clear plan for fixing any of it.

[@stonefish98]

@@derektran9404 There hasn't been an event since then, obviously. So yes, we haven't seen what they've changed. HMU on October 1st.

[@derektran9404]

@@stonefish98 Except NHRL in the past has been very clear about announcing ahead of time what changes they will implement. HMU when they do their usual announcement which they do for all major changes.

[@BitzTeamHeatwave]

This is a very controversial match, lynx went out of its perimeter while being counted out plus we couldn’t hear the ref counting out, in this situation I don’t think lynx should’ve been counted out, very outraging moment.

[@kevinmcd5578]

yeah this was handled well. Calvin aggressed on to the light when he was always going to win. He was also immobile for close to 19 seconds. Ample time for a count to have started and finished within the time frame. Shouldn't even really need a rules change as its a good rules interpretation. Tough way to lose but Calvin is the goat, he will win again.

[@davidbuckley334]

There's engagement with the other robot at 2:12 and 2:26, so really only a 14 second window for a proper countout to have happened.

[@PyroBear1776]

Not getting really what’s controversial about it. Loss is part of this sport. Calvin get hung up on a light, Lynx lost. Get. Over. It.

[@uncleshark1103]

Put a roof on the damn box. The robots didn't fail. The box did. And it fails a lot.

[@NHRL]

Did you think it was open air?

[@larsteampainfullyobvious3625]

hn hm

[@dippyfresh1116]

lartan

[@James_Howarth]

He was counted out get over it, he was immobilised for over 18s until he was disloged by Cat-Tastrophe.