The Most CONTROVERSIAL GRADE in Climbing History

The most controversial climbing grade system?? 🤔
A tough topic, which in the past has been the catalyst for a fight with a pint down the pub...and in more recent years had the Internet riled up so much keyboard hero's have lost thousands of pounds from whole computer systems being tossed out the upstairs window in rage.
With E12 having just been proposed & repeated and an app been developed to help 'solve' E grade problems, what better time for us to release a video with discussion, 'explanation' and opinion.
We also shed light on the big 'elephant in the room' topic - The British Tech grade. A subject no one has publicly dared to even touch yet. Well don't worry, we're here to dive straight in for you.
If you get fired up easily, nail that laptop down and strap in tight. We don’t want any ipads flying into the neighbours garden.
This is gonna be a laugh isn't it 😂😉....isn't it?!......no really....it is right??
#eisforextreme😂 #eisforeggsontoast #eisforwhothefknows #eisforego #eisforexperience #eisforexcellent #egrade
Climbing footage within the video from:
Once upon a time in the South West, • Climber's Gear Falls O... ‪@WideBoyz‬
Clippity Clop, / czrxoutnt-q
Baron Greenback, • Pete Whittaker 1st asc... ‪@WildCountryClimbing‬
Fly Trap, • We Pushed Toby Segar T... ‪@WideBoyz‬
Parthian Shot, • Ben Bransby climbs Par... ‪@nickbrown200‬ ‪@ukclimbingofficial‬ ‪@WideBoyz‬
The Walk of Life, • Now That's What I Call... ‪@HotAches‬
Rhapsody, • Now That's What I Call... ‪@HotAches‬
Indian Face, • Dave MacLeod - Indian ... ‪@HotAches‬
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[@YggdrasilMarcus]

E grade is about the whole day. Like there's an E6 wall to climb, but the nearest restaurant to eat lunch at is a bit shit, so it's more like an E7

[@theoctaneshop6167]

your comment made my day

[@richerlariviere]

Considering the British restaurant scene, does that mean that each trad route is sandbagged by at least 1 E-grade?

[@bjarnejensen6813]

I most definitly think so​@@richerlariviere

[@TAS_CNX]

@@richerlarivierewas coming to comment something similar 😂

[@Hill_Walker]

There could be a great curry house nearby... But if you ate there the day before and had a spicy vindaloo, the grading goes up by an exponential 1E!

[@hlwy]

We need an experiment. Tom and Pete climb routes without knowledge of the grade and have to guess the E grade afterwards. End of the day it doesnt really matter since O-grading is the superior system for all styles of climbing.

[@daveblack2602]

We've done that. Both Pete and Tom have done first ascents at just about every E grade.

[@perplexedon9834]

​@@daveblack2602I think the point was clearly to test the inter-rater reliability of E grading by experts. If Pete, Tom, and the setter all agree, then the grade is meaningful. If they disagree heavily, then maybe the grade is subjective to the point of being useless

[@sampsonliao2946]

You guys are missing the point. He just wanted to tell everyone he watches wideboyz and knows the O system. He's an insider, he wants you to know

[@M0torsagmannen]

there is only one problem with the O-grade as a system, but it is easily remedied by Ondra just climbing every route in the world. a bit selfish of him to not have done it already i must say

[@PotatoSalad11]

If I go and climb a V0 boulder on Tristan da Cunha (which is technically part of Britain, but the only way to get there is a 6-day boat trip from South Africa), can I call it E11 just because of how bloody hard the approach was?

[@ConReese]

It's an E12 if you're white traveling through South africa

[@Miles26545]

Yep

[@NPC-fl3gq]

Apparently, yes!!

[@FreeAsInFreeBeer]

A stepladder on the moon is E14.

[@DrHeadgear]

Only if you swim/row/paddle there

[@TheJeffDing]

The whole thing with E grades reminds me of Kalous's original aid rant. "We have a confirmed E12: there's the corpse!"

[@Zethalai]

I desire the Dave Macleod reaction to this discussion. Speaking as an American who barely climbs

[@TheGoldiniac]

Yes yes

[@852aaron]

it just happened :D

[@neilwalker6128]

11:23 sounds like Pete is naming dwarves ; snappy, sketchy, slabby and smeary

[@Stu_2112]

😂😂😂😂

[@johnmichaelhan6246]

I have always thought that I will never understand British climbing grades. I don't "think" that anymore, now I know that for sure. You know what is looks like to me? - Like an attempt to define a point position in 3-dimensional space with a single number.

[@Syaska]

This comment is a J7

[@largeformatlandscape]

Where he third axis is sustained or not

[@emiltraidl4707]

What a good description!😅

[@conormcglacken4215]

We also use E grades in Ireland so 1:17 in and we're already at The Troubles levels of controversy 😂

[@Mitzbergatc]

They are used in Malta too.

[@gerardlaide9962]

Morroco

[@TrackpadProductions]

I've found that when first introduced to a trad grading system with two numbers, a lot of people assume the Brits use one to grade the danger, and one to grade the physical difficulty. The problem with that kind of system, of course, is that it actually makes sense.

[@dagasmundhelland6931]

Hahaha i thought this!!! Why isnt it like this!!!??

[@dave_h_8742]

Can't be having THAT !😂

[@foxtrotwhisky4061]

😂😂😂

[@frederickmead7943]

But you do lose nuance. Like 'is the route sustained' or a 'easy but a one move wonder'. Adjectival grade + tech grade gives a little more info in a weird way.

[@roihemed5632]

Fair. there's always the possibility of 3 grades but that might be an overkill. I personally think that not having the tech grade isn't that bad.​@@frederickmead7943

[@brekkoh]

Haha gotta love pete and background crew reaction when Tom says he hasnt climbed any of the MacLeod routes 🤣

[@FreddieBrek]

2:00 Pete, you called the final pitch of Freerider ‘about E2’ in your rope solo video of El Cap!

[@DrEru]

hahahahahahahahahaha

[@CloveHitchCory]

😆 we have proof

[@hidden_sense9839]

I'm 25min in and am waiting for the final conclusion, that the O-grade is better than the E-grade in every single way ;).

[@Leon-mw6yu]

00:17 I waited until the end of the video for the two "level-headed" people to join the conversation and discuss the matter... Are these two people coming on a future episode or what?

[@lll000lllx3]

I wonder what normal people think of us

[@Stu_2112]

There are normal people left in this world? 😯

[@Ben-ew3hv]

You guys should definitely do a long trip up to Scotland and siege some of Dave's classics to validate that spicy take

[@AlexDenhamish]

Would love to see this!

[@rankbajin]

Tom's too feart.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

Look you two, stop trying to make sense of the British grading system - if it actually made sense we'd likely lose half our traffic overnight, as there'd be nothing for people to talk about (although I guess there's always the weather) 😆

[@gabrielschenker]

It sounds like the opposite of the Brazilian grading system where all the factors are separated... For example: Italianos 5° VI D1 E2 5°: overall difficulty of the route VI: grade of the crux (or cruxes) D1: duration of the route, from D1 to D5 E2: exposition, risk grade (distance between protections and quality) from E1 to E5

[@wileecoyoti]

This makes too much sense to ever catch on :)

[@WhiskyMystery]

It like following a discussion about improvised jazz

[@sket179]

"I don't blow. I don't suck."

[@unityoc]

Nope that would make more sense :D

[@brainp471]

To get really technical, risk is the combination of likelihood of occurrence and the severity of the occurrence

[@tom_hutchinson]

What’s the O equivalent though?

[@billyjhonston8139]

Bon Voyage hasn’t been officially graded, but I would guess is around E9-11 based on difficulty and sketchy falls. Ondra put it down as O3

[@SpartaSpartan117]

​@@billyjhonston8139 It has been proposed as E12 by JP. Ondra seems to have confirmed it there with physical climbing at F9a level

[@billyjhonston8139]

@@SpartaSpartan117 I hadn’t realized it was that hard, really puts into perspective how crazy strong Ondra is

[@someoneelse1904]

@@SpartaSpartan117I didn’t realise Jordan Peterson was a climber. I thought he was just a Kermit the frog talkin’ painkiller addict 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@brainp471]

This is the real question we need answered

[@sk8wizard12]

I love how you think, "I know know what our viewers will love! A video with us sitting around pontificating about some esoteric subject." ...And you make it, and we do. I was thoroughly entertained.

[@tommybinson]

Cool comment, and well written. Anyway, my heart would probably stop with joy if I ever led an E1.

[@hnrjdt1155]

But how about Adam climbing E12 Bon Voyage, should it be E12 ?

[@androgynousmaggot9389]

No, it's O3

[@Grumskiz]

What I learned today is that the E stands for exponential :)

[@GPatronymic]

If you want to up the risk factor and thus increase the E grade, just add some extra fun hazards. Want to make something E13, just add a crocodile pit at the bottom, and climb with chunks of offal hanging from your harness. E14? Your belayer is covered in honey and buried up to their neck in an ant hill. E15? If you don’t finish the route in 15 minutes, automated crossbows start firing at you. For E16, instead of cams and stoppers, you’ve got a bag full of pre-slung rattlesnakes to shove in cracks the rock. E17 if the snakes aren’t preslung 😂 Start combining these extra factors, and you’ll make it to E20 in no time at all 😂😂😂 Great vid guys 😊

[@davidemodanese7712]

This is lovely. More of this laidback nerdy videos will surely be appreciated ❤

[@Will_Kempkes]

So if Im an E9 climber I could either be a super good climber. Or just climb something easy and be suicidal?

[@someoneelse1904]

Not so much 😁 If the climbing was 5c climbing then it generally wouldn’t get above E1-E3 because the risk of falling off is then lower. It’s a very elegant system.

[@jameslincoln1]

Still need to climb F7c or above with death potential. Ie Indian Face

[@therealbatman8085]

Not that high of a grade but yes somewhat

[@justinmeyerr]

i believe it kinda scales up at E5/6

[@oliversmith8925]

Edge lane is E5 5c … I think … been a long time (20 years since I even looked at anything like that!)

[@42ford42prefect]

When its just Tom and Pete sitting together you know you are in for some top quality banter

[@rankbajin]

You need to get out more.

[@KieranJDuncan]

Well boys, sounds like you need to come up to Scotland and get on some Dave Mac sandbag classics!

[@gritwraith7632]

The E grade system was used for onsight trad climbing. It’s now used for repointing on trad. In my view a route doesn’t deserve a trad grade unless it has been onsighted. I guess E9+ (I don’t know what the max onsight is) should be given a sport grade maybe with a suggested highlight of the danger element if you like but should have a sport grade until it gets an onsight ascent. - Edit - Aha and Pete actually says this half way through! And I’m right about the E9+😊

[@jackmckayfletcher977]

On the point that for E grade to get higher they have to be riskier. I think the feeling of risk is relevant to the grade you climb. I.e if I climbing French 9a then get on a run out E2. That is not going to feel very risky. But if I climb sport 6a and get on the same E2 it is going to feel like a real trouser filler. From experience.

[@tommybinson]

Good point. I've never heard that factor discussed before. But I've met many sport climbers who say that trad scares them too much to do. Even some sport climbers in the top 10% would probably be as gripped as E2 leaders on a run-out E2. I'm just speculating.

[@Trad_IsRad]

I also think it's important to mention that the technical grade can give a lot of context to the accompanying trad grade. Eg a HVS 5B is often harder climbing but more safe whereas say a HVS 4c will be a lot less well protected.

[@jameslincoln1]

There's so many examples on grit where hvs5b can be bold tho

[@samelliott698]

feel like HVS is a controversy all by itself @@jameslincoln1

[@johnridley4868]

Funny. As I found hvs 4c harder than e1 5a. Is it the polish factor? Or the imposing thought of the grade that led to that

[@stonehouse1]

HVS is the last of the Victorian grading system. Some/many of them were never re-graded when E grades came in, so you can end up on a HVS that is harder/bolder than something newer/re-graded at E1 (maybe even E2 in some cases)

[@piercecooke9649]

But this simply isn’t true either. I climbed a roof that was HVS 4C and it was probably one of the most well protected climbs I’ve done. The sustained physicality earned the HVS but it was definitely no harder than 4c and the pro was great. Careful thought required in a big catchment statement like that.

[@peaknut1]

This could be the first of a series covering the other international grading systems

[@sessionmediaa]

next vid perhaps?

[@KGoodEgg]

Agree yes to this please 👍

[@ElliotLukeB]

Pete Whip-Taker

[@justinmeyerr]

not really though

[@Heyght]

Solution: the O grades.

[@rashburner]

You guys are so good at listening to each other. Very interresting discussion. Thanks

[@chyza2012]

If you want to add a danger or risk rating, I don't understand why it has to be in the same number as the difficulty. Call it X, going from 1 to 10, 10 being certain death. Soloing a 70 degree jug ladder is 3a X10, silence is 9c X1 cause you're on bolts on an overhang. I'm guessing this is what the technical grade in E grades was meant to do, but the main E still includes difficulty so you're stuck with two mutually semi-redundant grades that still don't tell you much, like why is a death fall on 6a an E4, but a death fall on 5a an E1? (or whatever, insert more appropriate grades if you want, I don't understand this system, that's the point of the comment).

[@benschuster9792]

a 1-10 danger rating would be highly inconsistent. How do you define something like that? What if there's no gear for most of the route but the crux had bomber gear or vice versa. What if the gear is good but you have to stop on hard positions to place it. The infinite nuance in routes is what makes the E grades so useful, it accounts for all these things

[@macciza]

You should check out John Ewbanks original outline of the Australian grading system... " Grading takes the following into consideration ... Technical difficulty, exposure, length, quality of rock, protection and other smaller factors. .." He rejected the idea of separate grades ie exposure, difficulty etc.. "Instead the climb is given one general grade, and if any other factor is outstanding, this is stated verbally in the description of the climb" Its the best grading system in the world just not always applied the way it should be...

[@jackhobson6358]

Misleading. It goes from Easy, through VS ... before you get to E1. E1 is flipping hard! Try some of them classics by Brown/Whillans?

[@andreasvalen8802]

I’m just a fish in the stream of comments

[@piadois]

3:05 I think the most comprehensive grading system in the sense you speak of would be the Brazilian one. An example grade: "5sup VIIb E3 D3" The first grade refers to the general grade for the route, while the second grade is the hardest move. E1-E5 refers to how exposed/dangerous the route is. The D grade refers to how long is the climb. D1: A few hours of climbing D2: Half day of climbing. D3: Almost a full day of climbing. D4: A long day of climbing. D5: Requires a night on the wall. Very fast climbers can repeat it in one day. D6: Two full days or more climbing. Typically includes long and complicated stretches of aid climbing. D7: Expeditions to remote access sites

[@robertcarpenter7890]

Now this sounds absolutely amazing, we don't tend to have climbs big enough in the UK to reach D5 and above

[@warpigs330]

I think this gets into a fascinating territory of how the way we judge things is so influenced by what we are valuing in the first place. Those values get instilled in the rules of grading, and then those values become the core of an activity. For instance this grading scheme tries to capture all the aspects of climbing, not just the climb itself, or narrowing it down to the hardest single move, and rating it based on that. This grading structure values different aspects of climbing that other climbing grade systems, so a translation isn't really possible.

[@TheBananaLoverorignal]

it's also used in Ireland, it's the best trad grading system imo because it accepts that a simple scale is not enough i have americans in my climbing club and it's quite intuitive once u explain it to them they like the tech grade addition.

[@Grossbaltringue]

As a frenchman I never understood your british e grades.But it is a great pleasure to see that brits don't understand these grades neither

[@twister0800]

I'd definitely have the many debates about Franco Cookson's Grading in the E-grade controversy top 3, so much to unpack there.

[@iluvatar4244]

We have a E-Scale in germany. E1 is that there is a certain liklyhood that you get hurt while falling. E2 is a very high probability that you get hurt. And E3... yea we don't talk about it. But the E-Scale is only an addition to an UIAA or french-grade

[@goodall18]

Petes face when Tom says "absolutely massive lob on" is absolute gold.

[@r.giuliano]

13:20 lol at Pete making up grading bc no one understands the system

[@rivergranniss3740]

It sounds like the E grade system is not useful or informative, you don't know whether the grade is for difficulty or safety, in other words it doesn't actually convey information unless you already have the information through experience. Very dumb... very British 😂

[@johnarinehart]

In Brazil we use a system that has different grades for: how hard is the climbing, how much time it takes and how exposed it is. In my opinion this makes more sense. That way you can easily choose a route that challenges you in one of those aspects but is within your capacity in the others

[@rankbajin]

Tom - 'I think WOL was E10 when James climbed it but I agree with others that it's E9 now'. Thanks for clearing that up.

[@laurenceturner9346]

How about the chance of dying or serious injury if you fall off multiplied by how technically hard the climb is. Would E12 be a 9a route with a guaranteed deck from 50m if you fall of the 8a section?

[@abs1793]

Love the sofa setup!

[@dave_h_8742]

Im liking the succulents on the table 🤪

[@the_zenclimber]

You should be able to make a 3D graph between X-axis the “normal” sport grade like French grade, then Y-axis the risk, going from 0% risk (tall route properly bolted) to 100% risk (the same route completely free solo’ed)…. And vertically on Z-axis the E grade. Free solo’ing should be the ultimate risk and therefore maximum E grade for that particular sport grade should apply.

[@danielwesterlund1905]

Having only seen the intro, I hope that the two of you are still friends at the end of the video. Done now. It sounds like E grades are a measure of your commitment as a climber. If you climb super hard you either climb all the time or train hard, or both, meaning you have a high level of commitment to climbing. If you climb dangerous routes, you also have a high level of commitment to climbing, because you're willing to take risks for it. "I think you need to be this [E level] committed to climbing in order to climb this, otherwise it's too hard or too big a risk to justify." If something is low E, it's good for people who're neither reckless nor enthusiasts. A consequence of this would also be that the E grades don't creep up as much because an increase in average skill can be attributed to more efficient training and climbing techniques, rather than rising levels of commitment. In '87, you could be just as committed a climber, but the top level technique and strength were both much lower. Therefore, the E grade wouldn't move up much, because the ceilings on personal risk-taking and commitment haven't risen, only the technical performance has. V grades rise rapidly because they measure how GOOD a climber you are, E grades don't rise rapidly because they measure how COMMITTED a climber you are. Hypothetically, going by that definition, should E grades rise at all? If 10 is total commitment in both risk-taking (serious injury or death) and preparation (either trains and/or climbs all the time), where do you go from there? If anything, older, more technically difficult routes should be downgraded with time as more efficient technique and training makes them require less commitment, even if the risk upon failure (be it none to max) stays the same.

[@thomwun]

Combining difficulty and risk in one number is the problem. Just use 2 numbers (Dn & Rn) and be done with it.

[@foxtrotwhisky4061]

The problem is actually the way the tech grade works, and it’s not a flaw, it’s an ingenious way of making sure trad days in the UK are adventurous, memorable, and often sandbagged 😂

[@georgestone8099]

It's incomprehensible, even after 37 minutes.. My favourite part is where Pete admits he's just been making the tech grade bit up because no one ever told him how it works. Aussies do it best.. 1 to 35. And guess what happens when someone puts up an even harder climb than a 35? That's right, there's now a 36.

[@Kvathe]

I'm surprised that there was no discussion of Bon Voyage

[@danballarin]

E grades logically end at "F". Clearly then you are truly "effed up"

[@Seize_machine]

I love this.. I have always wanted a better understanding of the E grade.

[@jimkeane4587]

E Grades are used in Ireland often, just for clarity

[@susanholl5994]

Nice to know a rock climbing route has been successfully done in Ireland so a grade could be given. Just assumed the rocks are always wet 😂😢😮

[@MrLinknel]

Thoughts on Hard Cheese? Basically an 8c solo with serious potential life changing / ending consequences if you fell off. Maybe not absolute certain death if you fell but you could die if you fell wrong.

[@foxtrotwhisky4061]

Upvote for this query!

[@ochoymedio78]

One minute and a half of the video and Pete already taking a piss at James by saying "it goes up till E11 and is only for trad in the UK"...

[@ohtv9294]

The biggest controversy in this video is the way you guys pronounce controversy 😂

[@princeeggtarts]

Why did you start at E1 and completely skip over Difficult, Hard, Very Hard, Severe, Hard Severe, Difficult Hard, Hard Very Severe, Severe Difficult Hard Very, Very Severe Hard, Hard Extreme Severe Very, Extreme Very Severe Difficult, and Moderate?

[@joshledbury6229]

Bon Voyage, E12 and graded using an british system in France. Poor James he's already controversial again.. Interestingly it has now seen a repeat by Ondra. Given a Hard 9a if it had bolts... but what about the E grade!

[@therealbatman8085]

He didn’t downgrade it but he doesn’t climb E grades

[@nandovancreij]

didn't adam call it E11?

[@ikesgreen5103]

I prefer the Ewbanks system 1-32 🇦🇺 Instead of danger levels in the grade, the guidebook will just say things like "bit airy" , " run out" or "a bit spicy 🌶️" in the description. Climbs with serious harm potential get a hand symbol ✋ and climbs with death potential get a skull 💀.

[@A_Tempest]

Where do highball boulders fall into the mix? Some of the bold problems Nalle put up are probably higher than half the stuff done with gear in the peak and at ~V14

[@DanielBenettiPlus]

we just add a movie rating to YDS lol

[@eclipsearchery9387]

Just go climbing and it works out about right :)

[@marknorton3951]

Risk within other disciplines (like engineering) is severity x probability. Typically each severity and probability are assigned 1 (low), 2(med), 3(high), so highest risk is 3x3=9. For climbing, that’s a case of you’ll probably fall and probably die. That’d give you your description of E, especially if you add the subjective experience (like exposed, airy, remote, fragile). Hope that helps some thinking.

[@logtothebase2]

Another E garde controversy was Strawberries given E5 7a, Now E7 6b, and I think that was a watershed for the UK grading system for when sport climbing came in we went with French grades, best grading system in French with American suffixes for risk so 7b+ R/X for example for runout technical slabe with ify untested gear,

[@obiponte]

The e grading system has had its time, it’s now the era of O grades

[@MartinBenson1]

How about: E-grade is how likely you can top out on lead, on sight. Tech grade is how hard is the hardest move.

[@Cris-po9cf]

E grades (and other UK grades) indicate how good you need to be for it to be sensible for you to attempt a route. Simple!

[@thebearded4427]

E1 is having a easy climb in the county, with food, toilets and a short ride there. E12 is climbing on a single peak in the african outback with things trying to kill you, while you need to ration your water, food and sanity. E24 is spending months below a peak, mental training to climb el cap free solo. The grade gets higher the closer you get to mortal danger, so civil war, ropes you see through and speaking your political opinion are some ways to get to a higher grade. I've made climbing grade history! Youre welcome!

[@thenayancat8802]

It's hard to say that there isn't E grade compression when Echo Wall was ~8c climbing with a strong possibility of decking, according to Dave.

[@MrClarktom]

Echo wall hasnt been graded. Dave suggested its harder than Rhapsody by a fair margin

[@saulsarry]

​​@@MrClarktom He suggested a grade for echo wall on his Lexicon video

[@thenayancat8802]

Ah, Echo Wall is "E10ish", which given he has also said it's ~8C+ with very poor protection makes one wonder whether you need to have spinning blades or a lava pit for something to be E12

[@saulsarry]

@@thenayancat8802 tbf I've heard someone describe Dave Mac E6s harder and more scary than some E9s, although that is purely anecdotal

[@tomparker6501]

The E grades assume you can solo. E.g. E3 5b is essentially an E1 5b but with no gear.

[@utubesuxb4lls]

please make a video in the gunks - what the hell wide boyz

[@Mrpinnerz]

Love these funny, nerdy climbing chats!!!

[@WaechterDerNacht]

As someone that goes bouldering 2-5 times max. and mostly does hiking with the occasional alpine glacier hike/climb stuff here in Switzerland, i might have a distant view on this topic. The main problem of climbing scales in general is, that they try to quantify a subjective experience. When I go bouldering, some easy boulders are really hard for me as a 2m guy just because they have overhang or the positions are really crammed. Others are easy for me, because i can reach holds others have to dyno. This would lead to a different grading. Based on this, I would see a grading system for outdoor climbing, that is purely based on measureable, quantifiable things like e.g. longest distance between gear placements in relation to height above ground (direct number that shows risk of hitting the floor), surface/rock roughness/grip, number of possible holds etc.

[@justinmeyerr]

i've always thought it was just the Danger factor. often 6c or something is with the routes ive seen people post.

[@sportenapfeltorten2095]

I think thats two different E-grading systhems. I have an older guidebook for the südpfalz in Germany where they use the UIAA-scale And sometimes there are additions for either risk/severity "ernsthaftigkeit" or for aid-use So a grade might look like this: 6+ So there is no risk to be mentioned -> can be protected well Or 7- E1 In this case the difficulty is 7- and the E1 tells us that there is a higher risk involved because the rock might be weak, or there are just few good placements Or 5+ A0 In this case the aditional A0 tells us that the route is only 5+ if you aid at a specific, usually the hardest move. So these aditions very much exist. But are a different thing than what they where discussing. Thats at least how I understand it.

[@pieter1108]

Climbing community: Let's come up with something that makes communicating about the difficulty of a route easy and efficient British climbing community: * Comes up with a grading scale that takes a 35+ minute video only to explain it *

[@rodrigormotta]

the best grading system is the brazilian one. look it up it brakes down in separate numbers, average difficulty, crux, run out and how long it is

[@zachswart7199]

Does the use of modern gear have an effect on the e grades that were established 20-30 years ago?

[@BobBob-ye2my]

I don't think you can compare American and UK grading systems as the climbing ethics are different so in my opinion the US system wouldn't work in the UK. I believe in the US they use bolts to protect hard climbing where there would be a death fall potential unlike the UK where we generally don't bolt trad routes regardless of risk due to our tradition of not bolting grit and mountain crags etc. I am not saying 1 is better and 1 is worst, just that its different approaches. I also think there's quite a bit of wiggle room within the gardes also. Indian face has death potential and is E9 but 7b+ french, If 6 was 9 has death potential and is E9 but 8a+ french.

[@SuperPointlessFilms]

What a statement, Dave Mcloud would never sandbag anything. If anything his grades are soft...

[@iain_nakada]

Never....

[@Stu_2112]

Grabs THE largest bowl of popcorn and settles into the comments section 😂

[@stevewillson9218]

Im curious as to why you guys haven't tried many of Daves routes?

[@dzBoardClimbs]

3:30 The "O" grading system is still the greatest

[@thingswelike]

Totally distracted by the urban climbing hold in the background!

[@PM-wn8qn]

So is a free solo climb always E12 in GB? 😮

[@benschuster9792]

no, because loads of climbers could solo a 6a for example. But not the same for E12. There shouldn't be any 'easy pickings' for the grade in theory

[@cheesecake6696]

Hey pete. Have you resoled your tennies? If so, where and what rubber.

[@richardross7207]

The E grading system and technical grade is subjective. We have no qualitative way of measuring difficulty. It's not like weight lifting where you can measure progress in weight or reps. I do mot believe we can grade on say a 1mm finger mono etc. Reliably. How do you work out how hard it is to pull on what is nearly fresh air. Totally subjective. There ain't no E12 etc.

[@willakerlund4191]

I appreciate the humor but can anyone make an honest attempt at defending having a system where the same grade could mean easy and dangerous and hard and safe respectively, while at the same time accounting for rock quality and possibly other factors? I've heard the argument that it gives you more information in less text, but to me it sounds like it actually gives less information because it requires a description, which defeats that purpose. Otherwise a perfectly protected roof with a hand crack, say 8a, could theoretically have the same E-grade as an unprotected easy slab, say 5a. To me a technical grade along with R/X seems objectively better, and if more context is needed, write a paragraph in the guidebook. Happy trad season!

[@gerbutt]

I’ve done E45, but it was just for a bit of dry skin on my elbow 😊

[@thingswelike]

I've done E45 too, but that was just to get from Munich to Innsbruck 😊

[@MP-bx3uj]

You two are the very best. 4 minutes into a topic that will have no bearing on my sport climbing life and I’m giggling with you💙

[@lui5gif]

As someone outside the UK, all I understood from this is that it looks like the E Grade lacks granularity. The difficulty and risk variables not having a direct correlation just makes it near impossible to understand a route from just the number. And who had the idea to introduce a tech grade that has even less granularity? 7b easy/medium/hard? There's so many numbers and letters in the alphabet that could have been used.

[@jameslincoln1]

Fair bit of shade thrown Dave Mac's way in this chat. Will you be getting him on to answer the accusations made?

[@CJski]

lol I think it's a lot less serious than you're interpreting it to be

[@stuartpeskett1514]

Just imagine a route like "Rhapsody" with no gear at all and then you will need a modern day Dawes to climb it and then you have your E12/ E13. ( or a route where it is impossible to place any gear) Simple!!

[@Kyle_Climbing99]

Great discussion, gents! I’ve always found the American risk ratings (PG-13, R, X) a bit lacking and I actually like the fact that the E grade encompasses both risk and physical difficulty in one number. It just feels more appropriate to me.