The Most CONTROVERSIAL Indy 500

The 2002 Indy 500 was one of the most controversial Indy 500's ever. Helio Castroneves and Paul Tracy were side by side for the lead when the caution came out with only 2 laps to go leading to some confusion of who actually won the race.
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[@PG2248CoasterNews]

perfect example of the butterfly effect: if that fan doesn't extend the last caution by a lap, Helio Castroneves would have likely ran out of fuel with 2 to go, and Paul Tracy wins the race under non-controversial circumstances

[@skyhigh6089]

Considering how controversial this ending was, it's weird there are no still images of their position right when the yellow came out.

[@sdsmt99]

But PT would still be a whinny bitch.

[@MrSpanks]

​@@skyhigh6089 Yeah - It should be as simple as that, right?! We all love a bit of drama though!

[@cjcavin4230]

1981 Indy 500 with Bobby Unser and Mario Andretti was most controversial race.

[@nickypoundtown9568]

3:13 You know he's sitting in the car praying for the halo to be invented before that wheel hits

[@giuseppebandiera255]

This race gets remember for its finish but what a wild one it was overall. I also love how the sound mixing makes the cars feel so loud, instead of being nerfed in the background as they do now.

[@wroomwroomboy123]

Had the same feeling when seeing old Nascar replays. They didn't have the microphpnes by the road like now, where you hear the noise of every car passing the camera. Back then it was recorded from somewhere higher up in the stands and it's just one big unit of a roar going past. It just sounds so fucking huge

[@TDTony14]

They were indeed loud! I don’t mind todays sound but there’s nothing like when they screamed in the 90’s and 2000’s

[@alanmaugle6000]

It’s such a tough decision because it is gut wrenching either way. I would’ve loved to have seen them finish this race under green as it would’ve been a fun dog fight between two absolute legends. Personally, I wish Paul would’ve gotten a 500 win because I was always a fan of his but this is such a tough call for the officials. Given the data available I think they ultimately made the right call but it does reek of IRL bias

[@secretsquirrel6257]

One could also blame Tracy's teammate Dario Franchitti. If he would have dropped back, Castroneves would have ran out of fuel way before the final 3 to 5 laps. He would have had to slow way down or pit for fuel. 1) Dario Franchitti 2) Jackass throwing beer on the track (it better been empty, if not, Alcohol Abuse) 3) IRL.... they would have moved heaven and earth to deny CART/CHAMPCAR another victory

[@arenasnow]

On the flip side, that nasty block Dario threw really screwed over Giaffone and allowed Tracy past in the first place and I kind of find that particular team tactic gross. In retrospect, as mediocre as he ended up being overall, I wish Giaffone had won this race as I got really, really tired of both Helio and Paul in the years since. But I do think Paul probably won.

[@ryanjohnson7560]

I was near where that beer can was thrown onto the track. I can’t speak for the whole track, but in the south chute grandstands there was a gap between the bottom row and the catch fence. Literally thousands of cans would be thrown down from the stands into that gap for whatever reason. During the race. What happened was a fan overshot their throw and it went between the holes in the fence. Honestly, I’m shocked that they allowed this and that it didn’t happen more often. When the race would end it was always a sight to see the sheer amount of beer cans in that gravel pit. I sit in T3 now and IDK if that is still a thing. I still have that memory and the memory of so many people yelling at the person who threw it and pointing him out to security.

[@ryanm.4519]

1981 was a far more controversial Indy 500 imo. The race results were overturned twice, with the second one coming 4 and a half months after the race happened, and there's still a pretty active debate about who should have won it. 2002 wasn't as bad because Team Green conceded in their appeal that the yellow lights that signaled caution went off in Helio's dashboard before Tracy made the pass. It's a pretty stunning admission that really kills the debate about who was the actual winner imo.

[@jacekatalakis8316]

I dunno if this is more controversial than 1981 EDIT: Far as the SAFER barrier goes, 1998 IROC was the real world test of it, and then some. Arie had a massive, massive crash coming off of 4 and hit hard, very, very hard.

[@Demise90Racing]

They are both pretty similar. 1981 had way for post race shenanigans with the win stripped from Unser and given to Andretti. But then months later reinstated too Unser.

[@jefftaylor1186]

He crashed right in front of me. I don’t think it was technically the SAFER barrier per se, but they did line up a ton of styrofoam in front of like a wall of tires or something there if I remember right. I’d have to go back and watch it But yeah, styrofoam went absolutely everywhere.

[@johncomstock2759]

The Safer barrier was done at the expense of IMS, by Purdue U, using the Speedway as a proving ground. So some of the 100's half drunk College boys attending were the designers 😂

[@jacekatalakis8316]

@@johncomstock2759 I mean, this is the one time I'd trust a half drunk college boy to have my back knowing Purdue U's reputation for turning out people who can do great things with engineering while blitzed, or half blitzed

[@sdsmt99]

​@@johncomstock2759it wasn't Purdue. It was University of Nebraska. Not hard to find correct information.

[@stevenkilsdonk2046]

One thing that Nascar coverage absolutely nails today is they can show exactly when the yellow light came on and identify the instant the scoring is frozen.

[@djeurosham]

I was at this one. It was seriously exciting to see the CART teams come over and kick ass.

[@sdsmt99]

That was 2001.

[@de-fault_de-fault]

@@sdsmt99 2002 was much the same, with one notable exception. Pressured by Marlboro, who learned in 2001 that they couldn’t legally be on Penske’s cars at Indy and in the CART series at the same time, Penske was now an IRL team. But they were just months removed from being a CART team, and still as far from the initial concept of what an IRL team should be as possible.

[@darknessgathers9721]

Watching from a cold and mostly raining part of north east Scotland. Been watching IndyCar for the past 2 or 3 years and loving it. Colton Herta and Pato O' Ward are my guys. Only just discovered your channel and lovinhg learning about the history of the sport. Keep makinhg these awesome videos bro!!!

[@ElectoneGuy]

The IRL didn't want another CART team/driver winning.

[@jarrenSA-ENG]

This is such conspiracy crack pot rubbish. the IRL had got the CART teams back racing in their backyard, they had already won the war. Whoever wins the battle in May was irrelevant

[@mannacler]

Tracy was robbed.

[@Mario_Ramirez]

Facts!!

[@testicat8462]

2012 one blew my mind with Sato moving up the leaderboard the entire race to trade first place with Dario multiple times the last 50 laps, only to get spun out on the last lap right in front of my seats. The crowds were going insane the entire last quarter of the race and then blew up during the rest of the lap. Best first race ever and haven’t missed a 500 in person since

[@diegohayato2740]

I once read something about Hélio Castroneves' second win at the 2002 Indy 500 that smacks of "conspiracy theory": they say it was an intervention by Tony George to prevent another CART driver from beating the IRL drivers, as in 2000 the victory went to Juan Pablo Montoya, and that year Montoya competed in CART. Already in 2001 the top five who finished the race were also from CART.

[@jefftaylor1186]

I feel like the 81 race was more controversial because Bobby Unser did not win that race according to USAC rules, he had seven or eight different spots he could’ve slid into line but he just continued passing cars under caution. But they gave Bobby the win and took it from Mario

[@gsmscooter22]

Absolutely right, Mario was robbed when Bobby cheated by passing 13 cars between exit of Pits and Backstretch

[@weallfollowmanutd]

That to me, was one of the most blatant rule breaks in Indycar history. How Booby got away with one is beyond comprehension. Watching the pack of cars line astern and one car doing their own thing to get back to the front was ridiculous.

[@ziggyziggyziggy]

I had been thinking of suggesting you this race to make a video about, but you beat me to it. Great job, keep them coming!

[@Demise90Racing]

It has been suggested a few times. And I think it was overdue for sure!

[@SportzyCG]

Lets goo i love the weekly vids and 11k subs sheesh dude you' be at 100k in no time

[@briantaylor9285]

And on this day, the term "IRL crapwagons" was born.

[@f1jones544]

Imo they're still only racing v2.5 of the same thing to this day.

[@charlenemarcks7483]

I was working for Team Green on Paul’s car. This still pisses me off.

[@stevenkilsdonk2046]

I would love to see the onboard from any car in the field to observe when the dash-mounted yellow came on. The wall camera exiting turn 2 showed the light come on after Redon had slid past the camera, long after PT had passed Helio.

[@z71pack]

Great race remember that day like yesterday! Been saying for 21 years that can on the track as called by Bob Jenkins made the difference

[@arenasnow]

I'm surprised he didn't reprise his race idiot line.

[@Luks9106]

On a side note, what a great fucking time it was to be a Brazilian Indy fan

[@paulo143PE]

Yup, 4 championships (across CART and IRL) and 3 Indy 500's between 2000-2004.

[@z71pack]

What a great time to be an Indy fan in general! Never a bad time split and all!

[@mikea3273]

As much as I've thought about this finish for 21 years, and as well versed as I am in it's bullshit outcome, I somehow glazed over the fact that, for Paul, it was the Penske #3 that this happened with. The car he personally had so much success in, and ALSO the car that should have been his friend and compatriots, Greg Moore. Like, of all cars to be cheated out of the 500 by, it was once again Penske giving him the shaft.

[@wrapper2]

Second most controversial, actually. See the 1981 Indy 500.

[@Demise90Racing]

They are pretty close. The 1981 race had months of post-race stuff that went on. The reason I gave it to this one was because it happened at the end. The 1981 controversy happened with 50 laps to go. You can go either way though as they were both highly controversial. The 1981 race will most definitely be a future video.

[@wrapper2]

@@Demise90Racing Cool, looking forward to it.

[@joshblackburn8038]

It’s amazing how now we have announcers who are aware of and convey different race strategies and explain the situations that each car is going through during the race…I love Paul Page but he and Goodyear really seem to have no situational awareness to anything happening on track…they have no clue that Kanaan spins in the oil Junqueria had JUST spilled. No explanation of the fuel saving by the cars at the end, other than saying they ARE saving fuel. It’s amazing how far the commentating has evolved.

[@fluffskunk]

Absolutely, I used to be driven crazy by them only figuring out a driver had a chance to win with 5 laps to go and suddenly cutting to them with no explanation.

[@2005StangMan]

They also have a lot more data available for races now. Even then, the timing was fairly rudimentary. Now the timing is crazy good and expansive, tons of on-board cams, high-def feeds, and more angles, drones/sky-cams, and better communication methods behind the scenes. It's very difficult to keep up with 33 cars over 2.5 miles when you can't see a lot of the track from the booth.

[@f1jones544]

​@@2005StangManthe commentators had the save video as we had and they routinely missed things we could see. Page was one of those guys who'd "can the race" but offered zero insight. Chris Economaki was another.

[@brandensimmons653]

Most Canadian racing fans don't like talking about this

[@timford3599]

Agreed. I still lament how unrighteously Scott Goodyear was totally SCREWED by another stupid Race Control call when the pace car driver was cruising around turn four as if he was on a "Sunday comin' home from church" leisurely pace. Scott did what any other veteran of the 500 would do...Ignore TF out of the flagman's order to return to the pits for consultation. Instead Scott Goodyear kept his foot on the "Loud Pedal." But, unfortunately he was not allowed to continue his lap accrual and therefore wound up about seventh place or so. (Sorry, I didn't stop to take a moment to research Scott's actual finishing position.)

[@Bastian_Zugnappen33]

Great Video 👍🏁🏎

[@chrisbroadhurst3039]

Insane how Will Power gets a bigger punishment for pushing an official than what Graham Rahal got for driving off with the fuel hose attached 🤦🏼 Raced brilliantly but for me should never have been able to win it, should have had a drive-though.

[@crystalracing4794]

Tracy got robbed. Helio would have ran out of fuel under green conditions. They should've used NASCAR's rules of racing til the end of lap before they declare caution.

[@mikulitsi1819]

1:40 Can any long time Indy fan explain why many of the older race starts had massive gaps between the rows unlike nowadays (past 3 years that I've followed actively) where it must be almost no gaps at all?

[@ChefBourgeoisie]

IRL's race director (Brian Barnhart) decided that the Pole-sitter deserved to lead the first lap and instructed the drivers to be pretty much single file by turn 1

[@timford3599]

The room between all eleven rows of three abreast cars was considered by the sanctioning body, USAC, and therefore the Management of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway was the safest and , from a television aspect, the most visually organized way that ALL competitors were to achieve as they left the turn four and headed for the starter's Green Flag wave. If you look back at any one of a number of first lap, if not first passing of the yard of bricks, starts of the 500. Upon replay the viewer will see that past the third row, if even that, alignments for rows four through eleven were ragged and dangerously Did organized. The start of 1966 and 1973 come, immediately to mind. The bottom line, and my basic point in this discussion is, if when you have 33 of the World's Greatest Drivers in very high horsepower automobiles racing for the biggest prize in the World for both Money and especially "FAME" then there MUST be a strict rule as to how those 33 "Hungry Lions" are to approach the starting line. There have been a number of starts to this "Greatest Spectacle in Racing" where Race Control and there by, the starter will abort the start and force the field to do another lap around the Speedway and this time, by God, they better have it "Tight and Right." I haven't seen that happen in, at least 20-25 years but, most of the time the Guy's and sometimes , the Girls, get "IT" right the first time. If you've read this far through, thank you and I do hope that some light was illuminated upon the answer to your question. (An ardent fan since 1961.)

[@mikulitsi1819]

@@timford3599 Thank you :)

[@jaylagaskins5049]

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾❤❤❤❤❤ for the video

[@LionheartRacingSeries]

You get a like sir for speaking the truth. YES Paul page is legendary....

[@coldhardart]

it's ironic the last guy who had this situation come up scott Goodyear had to witness this

[@kangarooswild]

my favourite phrase from this Indianapolis 500 by the legendary Gary Gerould. "and in the Penske pit Paul they are sweating bullets literally. they know the white flag's up next time by as Tracy stalks and closes..." simultaneously showing the captain Roger Penske intensely watching

[@bartsullivan4866]

Robbie Gordon was the man, love these old races Demise90 thank you for posting them. I feel bad for Sheckter I think that is something that AJ and Al Sr. always did well was not overdrive the car when they were leading. I feel a little bad for Paul Tracy but you are always in danger of a yellow coming out the best place to be is in the lead. Just recently with Sato and Dixon about 3 years ago. It really is too bad this race didn't finish under green because there was great racing throughout the whole race. I do think Tracy would have got him. Could have been another one of the best finishes in Indy history.

[@rickyspanish4792]

The rules are clear, but I do feel bad for Paul, as he would have probably won it if not for that pesky caution. But that's racing!

[@shrimpshrubbery7664]

That's not racing. It was a dumb rule. It should've been the order AT the time of the yellow.

[@largol33t12]

@@shrimpshrubbery7664 That's why Tony George did it. To take the victory away from him. People don't even get the reasoning: Paul Tracy did NOT work for the evil IRL at the time. Tony let him race in a feeble attempt to look like he wasn't shutting out anyone who could beat his playboy drivers. And when Tracy easily caught up with Helio, Tony didn't like that. Trust me, even if Tracy HAD won, Tony would have done everything to strip him of the win afterwards. The guy is a butthurt baby who needs to shut up and let people race. I stopped watching this "race" long before Tracy attempted to win there.

[@rickyspanish4792]

@@shrimpshrubbery7664 but it was, right? AT the time of the yellow, Paul was still behind.

[@cheddarmx5969]

@@rickyspanish4792correct people try to hold on to this fantasy that Paul won because at the time of yellow he was ahead, but he simply wasn’t. Helio slowed down to save fuel when he saw the yellow come out he was ahead at that point and knew he had won. The actual ending shouldn’t be controversial at all but more the circumstances of castroneves even having the fuel to make it to the end. (I know helio was ahead as there’s a picture somewhere online of Helio being clearly a nose ahead with cation lights on)

[@dankrolikowski9271]

I'll just say this.... As a person who truly loves open-wheel racing, has actually covered it at times....for over 50 years..Tony George ruined things..(Thats a fact) CART was legitimately the biggest, most popular form of auto racing in the world. (Bigger than NASCAR, F1, etc..) His ego, power destroyed it....and its never fully recovered. I usually dont play the "age game"...but I actually do believe this is a situation you had to live through to fully understand. There is zero doubt in my mind that Tracy actually won, but George wasnt going to allow that. (And I'm not even a Tracy fan)

[@amp888]

"CART was legitimately the biggest, most popular form of auto racing in the world. (Bigger than NASCAR, F1, etc..)" [citation needed] By what definition and metrics?

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

@@amp888 it wasn't bigger than f1 . maybe better .... depending on your tastes. Bigger than nascar at the time in terms of ratings , attendances , budget , fanbase .

[@jamesbraun9842]

​@autonomicmechanism8916 It was at least comparable to f1. There were multiple chassis and engine designs teams could make modifications, less rules on design of car, Driver/brand recognition diverse schedule. F1 was losing its novelty to casual viewers with the Schumacher and Ferrari domination era and lack of passing for the lead.

[@deanhirasawa1414]

CART was definitely bigger than NASCAR and the PPG IndyCar World Series was arguably the better World Championship compared to F1. In the early to mid 90s, you had multiple past and future F1 champions and the reigning WDC racing the best Americans in IndyCar racing on road, street, short ovals and TRUE 2 and 2.5 mile superspeedways. (No dangerous 1.5 mile banked ovals) Sadly due to offtrack mismanagement and failure to find a place for young American stars like Jeff Gordon, CART opened the door for TG and his IRL to race dumb-downed high downforce, underpowered and slow cars and the rest is history.

[@matthewscott8692]

NASCAR was already bigger than CART before the split. But they exploded afterwards. The split was due to greed by both sides. I always laugh when Tony George is 100% to blame. It goes way deeper than that. Please do some real research on racing. People just repeat the same crap and alot of it isn't accurate.

[@americanracingdesign]

It's always a trip to see my uncle Mark Weida being interviewed haha

[@GrashUriza]

You're going to end up having to do a video for 2023 as a controversial finish.

[@sdsmt99]

Yeah, those 2nd and 3rd red flags were BS, just end the race. In fact don't throw the first one either, just clean it up and go.

[@mmack647]

We attended this race (sitting in the stands on the exit of Turn 4) and heard the BOOM! first, then saw Tomas Scheckter slide along the wall in front of us. We were stunned. Sadly I remembered that yes, poor Tony Kanaan slammed the wall while leading as well in this race. As for the finish, everyone in our section was confused as plenty of people thought Paul Tracy won. I only knew who won by listening to the IMS Radio Network on my radio and headset. As for MOST controversial, well, there's 1981 as others have pointed out, and 1963 (SHOULD Parnelli Jones have been given the black flag for dripping oil?), and some folks might say this year. 😁 And poor Scott Goodyear. Screwed in 1995 AND 1997 (Are the track lights green? Do I follow the flag, what?)

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

not sure on 1995 goodyear....don't pass the pace car . if it slows you slow . hell if it stops , you stop . you cant be penalized for following the pace car....

[@gsmscooter22]

The Pace Car driver was terribly inconsistent all day and should've been faster and in Pits before they reached Turn 4, they absolutely screwed Goodyear and we saw it coming in Turn 3 most of day

[@muhammadwahyuhidayat21498]

Next,The Brawl Ricky Rudd vs Kevin Harvick at 2003 Nascar Cup Series Richmond Night Race.

[@COMMONsenseAdvocate86]

Really enjoy the content you release! Just know that all your hard work is enjoyed by some random punk rocker in downtown San Francisco!

[@MarvelMTs]

Demise90, would you consider highlighting V8 Supercars via a video titled “Greatest Bathurst 500 Ever”? It’s a tragedy that V8 Supercars has such great racing that doesn’t get decent US coverage, because they deserve it

[@drock6627]

PT won that race. I remember watching it and I didn't watch another Indy 500 during "the split".

[@JuanCarlos-tv2hu]

Those Dallaras were prettier than the abomination from 2003-2011.

[@f1jones544]

A tick is arguably prettier than a scorpion.

[@gagemcpherson1956]

This was my first Indy 500 in person when I was 8 almost 9 years old Castroneves has always been my favorite Indycar driver I was in Turn 3 where I still sit to this day I firmly believe Helio was the right winner however if the crash with 2 to go didn't happen Paul Tracy would have won

[@z71pack]

Awesome! As a fan that age at the time you don’t think Felipe could’ve chased him down?

[@mkay1957]

Helio is one of my favotites too, but the yellow light did not come on until AFTER Tracy was half a car length ahead of Helio. Then Tony George claimed it was when the yellow flag was displayed at the start/finish line, which is nonsense. Either way, a CART driver won.

[@chazmichaelmichaels88]

I was at that race, too. I was maybe 7 or 8. Got to see him climb the fence nearly right in front of us.

[@CptJET-he8nc]

TY 👍

[@jeffgibson8655]

Someone has to have the raw footage of this race that hasn't been monkeyed with. But I'm positive that Paul Page's comment "Scoring goes back to the previous lap" was added to the feed after the race. Because, I remember him saying it, but it wasn't in the sentence that you played on here. And I believe it was taken out of context. Like after the fact he said "It could be the scoring goes back to the previous lap". The yellow did not come on the split second that the wreck occurred. And you can see plainly in the video that Paul Tracy had passed Hélio Castroneves by a nose when you can see the yellow light on the track. The race was PT's. And unfortunately the IRL wasn't going to allow a CART team to win for the 3rd year in a row.

[@BigBoshV]

Do 2023 next

[@z71pack]

What ever happened to the LR tire changer for DeFerran? Been wondering for over 20 years

[@Omahamaho]

15:55 this threw me off the first time I saw it lol

[@nikeestar]

It was a dirty piece of politics worthy of Max Mosley. Tony George just couldn't accept a CART team winning again. There's a few good videos and articles out there that prove pretty conclusively Tracy won. I like both Paul and Helio, but you could say Tracy had the last laugh. Since Castroneves never won the series title.

[@arwyss]

Yeah… Helio with his 4 Indy 500 wins sure seems tore up that he never won a season title

[@tjantilag]

Meh, Tracy only won against a depleted pathetic field after numerous years he couldn't beat solid competition. Like Paul but his title is weak.

[@sdsmt99]

Because everyone remembers PT's championship against no Penskes, Ganassis, or Andrettis. And no one EVER heard from Helio again after this day.

[@Poundcakebowler]

Yeah, this was a bullshit call on IRL.

[@Gangsta_Playz]

I would also consider 2023 to be a really controversial

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

2023 is worse than this I think .

[@pedrooliveiraoliveirasimoe5478]

How? Indycar just didnt want the race to finish under caution and red flagged to do it. Unless you have the theory that Penske wouldnt try to restart the race if Ericsson or Ferrucci was ahead instead of Newgarden

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

@@pedrooliveiraoliveirasimoe5478 no penske conspiracy , it was a just a crappy call that doomed whoever was in the lead . they were a sitting duck . this is why the race should end as it ends , no red flag nascar bullsht

[@arenasnow]

@@pedrooliveiraoliveirasimoe5478 That's what people think. They kept throwing red flags to ensure Newgarden was in position to make the final pass because Penske owns both the series and the team. I have no opinion on that, but I can see the incentive. I do not like fake red flags to ensure a green flag finish and if they're going to insist on doing that, I'd honestly rather they copy NASCAR's overtime finishes at this point (since I think fake red flags are worse... I acknowledge the first red flag for the Kirkwood crash was legitimate, but the last two were pretty eye-rolling.)

[@ltjjenkins]

By this ruling jr Hildebrand should be declared winner as well. If the yellow comes out immediately when the car touches the wall then the field freezes and his damaged car rolls across the line.

[@bademhabibovic]

No, Hildenbrand would have not won this race since you still have to finish the race under your own power. And obviously he wasnt under his own power after the crash

[@drumjedi5301]

@@bademhabibovic Actually, if I remember correctly, he was still under his own power when he crossed the line. His car was pretty well wrecked, yes, but he was still driving it. Should he have been declared the winner by some sort of loophole in the rules? No. But he was still under power and driving his car.

[@Demise90Racing]

Dan Wheldon had already passed JR when the yellow flag was waved. It was waved very late and not until JR was almost at the start/finish line.

[@ltjjenkins]

@@Demise90Racing read my post again. The yellow, according to the Tracy ruling, comes WHEN the accident happens. The Tracy call was made by someone who had no authority but saw it first. AS SOON AS THE CAR TOUCHES THE WALL YELLOW. JR wins.

[@ltjjenkins]

@@bademhabibovic wrong. If he runs out of gas he loses?

[@camerongreenwoodcrampakacgc.]

2002. Arguably the most controversial Indy 500 ever along with 1981.

[@gothicpagan.666]

If that was European racing, Paul would have been in a spot of trouble for passing under yellow

[@greggwgiddensable]

Nice start??. My god the front and back were an entire straightaway apart!.. And they wondered why people wanted to watch nascar instead

[@mannacler]

Not the case anymore. Indycar's grid these days can be covered by a blanket as far as qualifying times go.

[@chazmichaelmichaels88]

I was at this race. Helio climbed the fence right in front of us.

[@RobJaskula]

Paul Page was amazing. He'd raced Formula Fords as a youngster and during a race one time starts talking about how he'd been allowed to take Teo Fabi's car around the Nurburgring. Hilarious!

[@jasoncampbell7765]

What a botched start.. They would have not gave the green at the start if this was 2023.

[@kimberlitemusic]

*I wanna go fast* 🏁🏁🏁🏁

[@arenasnow]

You said they went back to the previous scoring loop but I don't think that's correct. I don't think the IRL ever used scoring loops like NASCAR started doing in 2003. They froze the field at the precise instant the caution came out, but I guess the question is when the precise instant the caution came out was. They didn't use scoring loops and they didn't go back to the previous lap (Paul Page misspoke.) What I find more interesting is that there is also a controversy in 2001 that no one else seems to have acknowledged. de Ferran was leading Castroneves entering the pits and Castroneves beat him out of the pits but then was penalized for switching lanes in the pits to cut off Tony Stewart, which was against IRL rules. The IRL officials ordered Stewart in front on the ensuing restart but Castroneves was still allowed to restart in front of de Ferran, even though I do not think de Ferran committed any such violation since he never attempted to cut anyone off nor did he switch lanes. After Stewart pitted later, this meant Castroneves was now in front of de Ferran and that ultimately decided the race. I have never seen an explanation of why Castroneves was allowed to cut off Stewart, penalized, but then was allowed to restart in front of de Ferran (who as far as I can tell committed no such penalty.) I honestly think this is just as controversial a call as 2002 but nobody ever seems to talk about this one. Could you potentially sort out this one for me, because it's a much more obscure incident that no one ever talks about but was also controversial and race-deciding. Considering the bulk of his legacy is based on two different controversial race calls at the start of his career, I was not excited to watch him join the four-timers club, but I will admit that his win in 2021 was certainly the best race he ever drove.

[@jpake]

"The most CONTROVERSIAL Indy 500"??? 1981 Mario Andretti would like to object.

[@paulmasuicca5304]

Bobby Unser passing six cars under yellow for the win was way more controversial than this.

[@gsmscooter22]

It was more like 13 as he passed them out of Pits all way over to the Backstretch past Turn 2

[@sdsmt99]

Mario passed some too. Just not as many. Vintage Andretti Whine.

[@paulmasuicca5304]

You sound like a five year old. "But he did it too! WHAAAA!@@sdsmt99

[@GREG-SC]

Paul certainly put a pass on him...

[@jackolson8775]

No controversy, PT won.

[@brianmuhlingBUM]

I miss Paul Page's commentary! Helio won. 😊

[@beeemm2578]

00:17 because if the fuel sprays everywhere, it will go on the gas man ONLY..lol 🙄🤔

[@xiaofengxiaofengxiaofengxi4651]

We need Paul Page back for one last go at Indy

[@danielhenderson8316]

He's retired now. A couple of years ago, he called the IndyCar seasons on IMS Radio that started with the Delta Force theme that was used before the Indy 500 back in the day. I'm not sure where those races are archived.

[@brettmeyer6763]

Tracy won plain and simple

[@minimalistic_banhaus]

Did Indycar have the same rule as F1 about being able to pass any car driving unnecessarily slowly when under caution? If Paul had passed Helio under yellow to take the win, that would have been TRULY controversial.

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

not until they line up behind the pace car , at which point the the car must maintain the pace car speed

[@theBusterMan215]

Why no red flag like in this year’s indy 500? Oh, that’s right. Stay yellow if a Penske car is in front. Throw the red if the Penske car is in 2nd. Got it

[@waynekerr67]

Holy shit that first yellow. The wheel was close to taking out the guy. And to think people actually were against the halo / aeroscreen.

[@Jusuff]

"But the drivers should accept the danger. What's the point in making motorsport so safe?" -Sanest anti-halo person

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

94 is pretty controversial . I mean it basically caused the split .....

[@danielhenderson8316]

It didn't cause the split, but could be argued that it was the straw that broke the camel's back, and even so, Tony George and USAC could have let 94 slide and banned it immediately for 95 instead of letting Ilmor and car owners take orders for next year and stopping after several millions worth in engine blocks were produced.

[@Butterfingers1989]

Kanaan a rookie... im old..

[@kpcart]

Retrospectly, give the win to both of them, 2 legends, i bet helio would accept this too.

[@spd-kv6sd]

The karma got to Castronevez in the end. After all, he is the one with highest amount of wins in the Indy 500, but surprisingly or not, has never been an IndyCar season champion!

[@GrashUriza]

He's on of several drivers who have won the Race 4 times. Helio has not (as of 2023) won that mythical 5th win.

[@secretsquirrel6257]

I was just thinking that....great success at the Indy 500 but otherwise just an above average driver, should have been more.

[@fluffskunk]

I don't think he cares. Winning Indy gets you more fame than the championship. And not even the IRS was able to slap him with karma.

[@spd-kv6sd]

@@fluffskunk Still, a paradox. Just like Denny Hamlin never being a NASCAR champion, despite winning on almost every track.

[@2005StangMan]

@@spd-kv6sd That's just because of the idiotic way NASCAR handles their championship.

[@driverslqqk7940]

We have seen this so many times in auto racing with a lap to go a no-name driver can't somehow make it one lap without a mistake that changes the whole outcome of the race that guy that wrecked into the wall all he had to do was know that he could not win I don't know if he was racing for a position but smarter heads prevail he obviously did a dumb thing lost control of his car changed the outcome and stole the wind from Tony Kannon and it seems that politics once again played a role in that Roger Penske was one day the owner of Indianapolis so he definitely had a political say in the outcome it's not always the best driver that wins but it's the driver with the owner who has the most influence and the most money that wins sadly that's the world we live in generally speaking always the man with the most money controls the masses,

[@thepspman116]

Wow just like in the '04 Stanley Cup finals...canadian team robbed on the biggest stage lol

[@67JLBlues19]

Bret Hart 1997 Paul Tracy 2002 Calgary Flames 2004

[@DCTib]

This race is a good example of why they should let the cars race back to the line, specifically if the incident is behind the leaders. Racing back to the line would make for a clear winner and not allow for a subjective decision like who was in the lead at the moment someone farted.

[@dudesfx]

With all the data it was 100% the right choice, bummer PT never got a deserving 500 win but this was 100% Helio’s. Cool vid btw

[@ntnsty]

Terrible start - should not have been green flagged IMO. Minor to the rest of the story though.

[@jamesruggeri2695]

the both won, but Indy lost. Nascar has it right with the race-to-the-finish on yellows, Indy's rule left room for controversy

[@rogeeeferrari]

This is nothing compared to 1981 and Bobby Unser cheating his way to a win, passing cars on the yellow...

[@Saturn185]

when in the broadcast they look back at the incident and point to the yellow light being on tracy's already ahead, so personally i think it should've been his win but i just wish there was more conclusive evidence no matter who is in the right here, also can anyone tell me of any other time where the scoring going back to previous lap thing happened in the irl?

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

it doesn't . paul page was wrong . scoring goes back to the last timing loop before the yellow is called. this is essentially the last available position information before the yellow . only in a red flag does scoring go back to the last completed lap.

[@arenasnow]

@@AlistairMaxwell77 Scoring going back to the previous lap was a rule in USAC sprint car racing at the time. For instance, Rich Vogler died in a sprint car crash while leading and the race ended early due to a red flag as a result of that crash. He was declared the winner because scoring went back to the previous lap posthumously. USAC did sanction the IRL initially (and the Indy 500 in the years going back to 1956) before the IRL dropped them as their sanctioning body after the 1997 Indianapolis and Texas controversies but I'm not sure whether the scoring going back to the previous lap applied in the Indy 500. I think it didn't, but that's probably why Page was confused. Page was probably also confused because most racing series (not just NASCAR) raced back to the line until not long before this and I think the idea of freezing the field was relatively new in 2002.

[@gsmscooter22]

Tracy won, you can see he's past Helio when Green goes Yellow into North Chute

[@nicholasroberts2454]

5:23

[@Demise90Racing]

💀

[@walkerking3875]

greg ray was overhyped i remember

[@danieldavidson7348]

That start was trash.

[@bagofnails6692]

Too close to call. Anybody shouting one way or the other with any level of certainty is a bit of a fool.

[@Remmy14]

What I never see talked about are the idiot backmarkers who were racing for a who-cares position, couldn't make the pass and ended up robbing us of a fantastic green flag finish.

[@arenasnow]

Buddy Lazier had run well all day and was 5th when he crashed I believe so he wasn't a backmarker. Redon probably took him out since Lazier never made too many mistakes in the race while Redon was a rookie. They never really ended up showing what caused the crash because the battle for the win overshadowed it.

[@victoriaobrien2324]

I am grew in Indianapolis where a friend of mine would take me the track i listen to the race with my father

[@frozentspark2105]

Looked pretty obvious to me that Castroneves won. The yellow came on right before Tracy completed his pass so the field freezes at that moment.

[@Demise90Racing]

I can't say I disagree with you. The rules are the rules. I just did my best to keep it in the middle for the sake of the video. But, I do see both sides on the situation.

[@bademhabibovic]

It’s unfortunate for Tracy and Team Green since they had a fantastic race. But the rules are clear. Thats racing sometimes 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Icehammer97]

Except the spot shadow that shows the light going on with Tracy ahead. I actually met Tracy and his parents at a restaurant outside Cleveland a year after the race and they said the reasoning they were given was that since he was on the outside he had a further distance to start finish than Helio which is why they decided he was in front at the yellow despite Tracy’s car being a hose ahead. This was 100% political and the IRL wanted to reward Penske for defecting full time.

[@typhoon-7]

The replay showed that Tracy was AHEAD as the yellow went out. There are many videos on KZbin of this. However as the countback applied it was irrelevant. But Paul was ahead at the moment when the yellow was thrown but behind when the crash happened.

[@jarrenSA-ENG]

@@Icehammer97 absolute rubbish, if that was the case Barnhardt would have radioed the caution as soon as Redon hit the wall. Typical biased champ car fan

[@bradthomas3144]

Paul Tracy was robbed

[@halkieria7581]

The rules are rules

[@bradthomas3144]

You are a dumb ass he didn't deserve to win

[@andrewkinsella326]

Unfortunately this video doesn't really do a good job of explaining the controversy. It all comes down to the ambiguity of the IRL rule book of the time. First things first, the order when the incident happened did not matter, and was a red herring when both ABC and IRL officials referenced it. At no point in IndyCar history under any sanctioning body has order reverted to the instant the incident happened. The rules at the time was the field was frozen when the caution came out. The problem was when does the caution officially "come out". Keep in mind this is 2002, so these systems were not fully computerized. In 2023, it is literally the push of a button, back then it was not. So when is the caution "out"? Is it: 1) When the race director calls the caution on the radio 2) When the flag man at the start finish line displays the yellow flag 3) When the corner marshals display the yellow flag 4) When the lights on the dash display the caution or 5) when the caution lights on the wall turned on. You can literally make a case for any of those 5 points, because they all have been used by IndyCar in the past. In this case the IRL could show that 1, 2 and about half of 3 happened before the pass was completed, and Barry Green could show that 4 and 5 took place after the pass was completed. The problem is that according to rules of the time, the timing of when the caution came out is..."at the Race Director's discretion". Instead of picking one of those things, the rule book literally said which ever one of those criteria the RD said is what they will use. So at the end of the day, the lack of objective criteria for when the caution actually is deemed "out" created a scenario where BOTH Castroneves did legitimately win the 500 AND PT got screwed because, depending on what the RD decided was when the caution came out, he also could have been seen to have legitimately won the 500. If the RD had said "Tracy completed the pass before the caution lights were on so the pass stands;" that would have been just as legitimate in the eyes of the Rulebook of the day. And you can ask Will Power or Castroneves himself about Brain-Fart's judgment as a RD.

[@Zoomer30_]

Brain Barnfart 🤮

[@scottl.1568]

Whut

[@whodat1721]

Perfect example of a controversy that wasn't a controversy, the rules were stated and followed. It was just writers trying to create fake news.

[@louieramirez6068]

I wonder how much Roger Penske paid that guy to crash?