The Most Controversial Item in OU

Good things come in big packages at MeUndies. Get 20% off your first order, plus free shipping, at MeUndies.com/fsg
Is Heavy Duty Boots a necessary evil or would we actually prefer stealth rock to being protected by hazards? #pokemon #pokemonscarletandviolet #pokemonshowdown
PATREON! / falseswipegaming
The Official False Swipe Gaming Twitter: / falseswipeg
Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
2:46 - Pros
12:23 - Cons
16:21 - Verdict
19:00 - Outro
Directed by Kellen / kellen_fsg
Follow Me On Twitch!: / kellen_fsg
Written By Kevin aka BKC His Channel:
/ @bkcisthrash
This Bread Needs More Jam:
/ @thisbreadneedsmo...
Music:
Battle! Terapagos - Indigo Disk OST
Route 216 (Day) - Diamond & Pearl OST
Vs. Deoxys - Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire OST
Poke Cup Battle - Pokemon Stadium 2 OST
Old Chataeu - Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl OST
Castelia City - Black & White OST
Thumbnail:
/ dustythesnowman
IG: / dusty.butter
VFX Intro By Ryan Gonzales
ryangonzalesfilmmaker.weebly....
Songs Used (List of ALL Songs used for this series. Some may or may not make it into the video):
docs.google.com/document/d/1H...

[@FalseSwipeGaming]

Good things come in big packages at MeUndies. Get 20% off your first order, plus free shipping, at MeUndies.com/fsg

[@epikhigh97]

Please do a collab with wolfy

[@beanslinger2]

this video got heavy duty boots on

[@Grand-Master_Owl]

Enough time has passed, since you briefly talk about the move Knock off, I think the move itself deserves its own video

[@Rainos62]

I think boots are a symptom to the problem of stealth rock. Stealth rock is too powerful. dont get me wrong spikes is powerful but its held back by the fact to even get the same amount of power as 1 stealth rock 2x effective you need to do 3 sets of spikes and spikes has a harder time running rampant at the level stealth rock does. I think stealth rock needs to be nerfed because any move that immediate can give you a powerful advantage of opponent only starts with half hp maybe needs to be nerfed. boots was just a response to the toxic nature of this move. people will try to say it will make stall teams unbearable but how many fire, bug and ice types do stall teams actually include . a lot of them dont even have stealth rock weak pokemon already. I think they should ban stealth rock its clearly broken but players dont want to admit its too powerful because they like using tools that can break the meta game and dont like when their overpowered toys get nerfed and heavy duty boots was just the nerf to stealth rock because if they remove heavy duty boots i guarantee stealth rock is getting nerfed to heck or removed because its way too powerful and guaranteed gamefreak knows that which is why heavy duty boots was made due to many player complaints about it.

[@darkdragon7210]

The Chansey/ Blissey Theorem Why Natures are Everything!!! Isn't there a RULE that says only 1 item per Pokemon? Meaning NO Duplicates? on a Team!?

[@ZackdasBohne]

Condemning Heavy Duty Boots is a clear example of Stockholm Syndrome .

[@Labyrinth6000]

I find it so odd that people don’t condemn the move Stealth Rock. It makes those weak to rock especially those who are quad weak to it have no defensive counter to it.

[@asuuki2048]

WAH, I CAN’T TAKE AWAY 50% OF MY OPPONENT’S HEALTH BECAUSE STEALTH ROCK IS OVERTUNED, WAH

[@handlebar4520]

cheese string flavoured Stockholm syndrome

[@ChocolateSoda1]

There are better ways to balance stealth rock (e.g., having them break after X switches or when a rock type enters)

[@Jerry-jd8kc]

​@@Labyrinth6000although it does kill certain mons, it is a necessary evil that really speeds up singles and forces players to actually consider not switching (this is why gen 8 is now a very slow paced regen/boots immortality fiesta)

[@HouseHawk62]

Heavy duty boots are insane but that’s only because hazards, primarily stealth rock, are even more insane. Seriously some Pokémon taking HALF THEIR HEALTH JUST FOR SWITCHING IN is insane. An equally insane response like boots was bound to happen at some point.

[@Labyrinth6000]

I’m surprised how there’s no outcry to banning the move. It made double weakness Pokemon have no defensive counter to it.

[@nobodyspecial2053]

Honestly, the first mistake was not making rapid spin a TM in diamond and Pearl. Having such a powerful tool widely available and its only counter rare is bad game design.

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@Labyrinth6000 Ladders that banned Rocks have been tried before, but they tend to be unpopular. The metas that receive the most complaints about Hazards focus on Spikes more so than Rocks

[@quanghoang6901]

​@@Labyrinth6000because without rock, stall would be even harder to play against

[@Destinum]

@@Labyrinth6000 People have been playing with Stealth Rock for so long at this point that they just consider it a core part of the game you need to deal with.

[@davidcorrea-3136]

So wasting a precious item slot to counter the 1 move of stealth rock is more suspect than the stealth rock itself? Lol

[@KaoruMzk]

Smogon logic.

[@Labyrinth6000]

@@KaoruMzkstealth rock is literally the “establishment” move in competitive. When I first saw this move when it was new, I was baffled as to wonder how it wasn’t banned for being too broken against those weak to rock.

[@cowboyslime3615]

Blocking 1 move on 1 pokemon is more OP than the move that made this horrible decision actually viable? lmao smogon logic

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

Not just stealth rock but also webs and both forms of spikes

[@homerman76]

​@@fulltimeslackerii8229 I just wish that we had something like what Toxic spikes has where just sending in the right type of Pokemon neutralizes the hazard entirely

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

Maybe hazards are just way too prevalent.

[@theimpersonator7086]

Hazards are centralizing, but much like GSC Lax, are considered healthy for singles to punish Regen, pivot moves, switching, and keep games at a good pace. I'd personally be down for a rocks rework to do a flat 12%, but Regen and Pivot moves need to be severely nerfed in exchange

[@glitchedoom]

Boots are just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

[@Sleeper800]

​​@@theimpersonator7086 Why would regenerator need to be nerfed if rocks became a flat 12% rate? There are a solid 2 Pokémon with regenerator that are even weak to rocks, those being Tornadus-T and Ho-Oh, and the latter is already in Ubers/banned in restricted VGC formats. So in standard play, you're looking at just Torn-T potentially becoming broken, and nerfing an entire non-signature ability just because of one Pokémon is absurd imo. If you wanna nerf regenerator because its OP on its own, then nerf regenerator, but this isn't a reason to do it.

[@Unfaux-compte]

​​@@theimpersonator7086then the problem is stall. They could nerf regenerator as they did for zacian and zamazenta ability. It doesn't seem fair that in order to counter 10 Pokemon you have to make 150 of them completely unviable.

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@Sleeper800 Because allowing a Pokemon to heal 1/3rd of its health when switching is insanely busted lol. Hazards are a great way to limit Regen, even if the Pokemon is not weak to Rocks in particular. There is a reason why Gen 8 get flack for Boots Regen pivots lmao.

[@egbertmilton4003]

Yeah, no, Stealth Rocks deserves the existence of Boots. The fact that it’s so crippling to certain types is just unforgivable.

[@wentoneisendon6502]

The fact that game freak hasn't done anything about stealth rocks since Gen 4 makes me think they have no fucking clue how to balance pokemon. They got lucky with the formula in the 90s

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

@@wentoneisendon6502they balance around doubles. Not singles

[@zorimanar2247]

​@@fulltimeslackerii8229 This. They balance around the format that they officiate.

[@Johnjohn-lg1te]

​@@wentoneisendon6502 Ehmmmm they did tho???? They created the jordans XD

[@wentoneisendon6502]

​@@Johnjohn-lg1te tru.let's give the pokes some trendy sneakers

[@williamhumphrey2530]

All fun and games until Volcarona puts on a pair of Timbs.

[@Keegan006]

It’s funny that without rocks, focus sash will be a lot better than item counter out like set up sweepers

[@thenerd-bot9847]

Multiple pairs of Timbs even!

[@RickyRiceB]

* volcarona kicking the rocks away by break dancing

[@mizu6891]

Fights a Charizard with no boots: THIS BRO GOT THEM FAKE JAYS

[@johnhatzis3113]

Fights a Clefable with boots: THIS BRO GOT THEM FAKE MAGIC GUARDS *Toxic* *Toxic* *Toxic*

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

"Jordan never did that move" @mizu6891

[@bapbeepskull]

*I GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE!!!*

[@phantompop3192]

The Charizard that made Lebron cry

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

Sneaky pebbles always wins

[@morningcoffee4384]

I know a lot of people who don't really engage in the competitive scene are going to do their usual comments but I want to bring some clarity: the anti boots crowd is a vocal MINORITY. Not every OU player wants them gone, let alone the lower tiers where it's almost unanimously agreed to be a healthy addition. For Gen 8 and 9 I do believe it failed in their goal of closing the gap between lower tier mons weak to SR and those who aren't in OU, it only ended up making already strong mons more powerful like Volcarona, Tornadus-T, Dragonite and Weavile. No, Charizard didn't become an OU titan with Boots (ironically its most OU viable moveset doesn't run them at all). Hazards are a necessity to avoid a metagame similar to GSC, where even offense vs offense takes between 40 and 65 turns. Something has to punish constant switching, especially against bulky team. Facing a Volt-Turn team is already annoying with hazads involved, imagine how that'd feel without them and the opponent not having to sacrifice an item to do so. Gen 9 problems are a brew of buffs and nerfs that created this necessity of Boots everywhere: everyone and their mother got Spikes or Toxic Spikes and Defog is basically exclusive to Corviknight (for OUs power level) which even teams without Gholdengo can pressure it every time it wants to remove hazards. Tusk is great but it can't last forever. I don't want this to be another "Smash players only play on FD" situation where people only listen to memes and start making assumptions about the entire scene.

[@Aaronrules380]

to be fair a lot of these issues are also the result of Smogon player's sticking to a highly specific type of fan format the game isn't really balanced around instead of ones more along the lines of the official 3v3 singles or 4v4 doubles formats.

[@julius.caesar.]

Finally. A reasonable comment from someone who plays Pokémon.

[@MidoseitoAkage]

The community should avoid this minority and don't let speak loud.

[@egg_l0rd13]

As someone who loves using setup mons (Clodsire’s my favorite :3), this is a pretty refreshing take. I really believe setup moves like Stealth Rock, Spikes, T. Spikes, etc. are important to preventing annoying switching shenanigans like you said.

[@MidoseitoAkage]

​@@Aaronrules380They should grown up and seek theres so many way to play the game rather stay in one specific strat and ban a gimmick that give some random luck. It's like blaming a dice in D&D. That means absolutely nothing for a rpg.

[@GIR177]

The fact that Game Freak created Heavy Duty Boots to combat entry hazards, a mechanic pretty much unseen in the official doubles competitive format and thus would have little incentive to add, speaks volumes about how well known their power and centralization in 6v6 singles really is. After 2 decades of dominance, it's safe to say they had it coming.

[@eyecontrol4900]

They should've nerfed rocks in the first place

[@ewutermohlen]

Singles is the staple of the pokemon games. The majority of matches in a playthrough are singles and not to forget the anime main tournaments are singles too. The move stealth rock itself was introduced because switching is such a powerful broken mechanic. Hence why pursuit, trapping abilities and moves are controversial too. All the controversy originates mainly because of the switch out mechanic of the game.

[@GIR177]

​​​​​​​​​​@@ewutermohlenSwitching is not a "broken mechanic" of battling, switching literally IS battling. Pokémon is all about tempo and forcing favorable matchups repeatedly against your opponent's mons in order to make progress. A match without switch mindgames is no better than playing the in-game trainers - the outcome is predetermined because there will be no adaptation. What makes switching feel so braindead now is a growing issue inherent to the singles format itself, along with the several low-risk high reward switch moves that worsened the issue. GF understood this and it's why it has adopted doubles as the official competitive format and largely balances the game around it. Switching inherently holds more risk when a mon is possibly tanking two attacks on incoming, and most people don't want to spectate a switch-fest.

[@lillyie]

@@GIR177 they made the right choice of making vgc formats doubles. their hatred of stall is also nice because battles are actually about who can attack better rather than toxic stalling for 100+ turns

[@mcdonnell-douglasdc-1056]

The imagery of Volcarona wearing a pair of boots is strange yet funny. Imagine limbless Pokemon wearing a pair of Heavy Duty Boots.

[@JoshuaPAMployee]

They have tiny pairs on their little bug feet! 💕

[@georgecortes3416]

I always see Volcarona as wearing three pairs of the boots on its wings lmao. Also, if the Lati Twins wear the boots themselves, do they put them on their wings or their little hands?

[@theapexsurvivor9538]

Escavalier goes right back to being a Shelmet

[@darkdragon7210]

This comment makes me WISH there was a Sprite or something for the Pokemon actually wearing their Held Item in Battle!!!

[@leobuana7430]

​​@@georgecortes3416 i imagine they just use telekinesis and move the boots to mimic walking

[@dkznikolaj7013]

Sounds like an issue with stealthrock being just way too fucking good with little other options.

[@SPZ-gv2on]

Hazards are why switching has downsides and why abilities like regenerator aren't unplayably broken. With how the meta has evolved over the years, hazards in some capacity are needed.

[@dankinmcspankin3123]

i too am here from the jimmothy cool video

[@GKplus8]

@@SPZ-gv2on I think the point is more that stealth rock in particular is very polarizing, with it's interaction with the type chart being overturned. If Rocks didn't scale so quickly, I think there would be less of an issue. (e.g. something to change the scaling to have a quad weakness only be 25% instead of half, or remove the scaling and have rock hit everything for the equivalent of 1 or 2 layers of spikes) Because yeah, hazards are still useful for chip, breaking sashes, etc. they don't need to *also* be a zard/volc/etc killer

[@TheOnlyGBeast]

Hazards are just overtuned tbh

[@snailymitch]

@@SPZ-gv2on Why does every single time someone says stealth rock specifically is overbearing you always have someone going "nooo but we need the hazards", nobody is saying to get rid of hazards just that stealth rock in particular is blatantly unbalanced and poorly designed. Having the damage be type dependent doesn't contribute to limiting switching in the slightest, it just makes the common defensive steel and ground types better.

[@juanrached4523]

In the same day: Jimothy cool talks about stealth rocks. FSG talks about HD boots

[@overseerpjoe9477]

The Duality of Poketubers.

[@nintenster]

This is insane

[@Blue_chess007]

I was going to comment it and see yours 😁

[@Carlet_S]

Entry hazards have always been impactful

[@majava5282]

And they recently did a podcast together. Coincidence? I think not!

[@sundaeswirls]

Who knew all you needed to alter competitive greatly is a pair of fresh uggs

[@donovanlocust1106]

You mean the Timbs?

[@Aaa-vp6ug]

Uggs is my new favourite word now. I never heard boots being called uggs before until now, is this a regional thing?

[@Endershock1678]

Who knew the strongest thing a Pokémon could have is drip?

[@Seetiyan]

​@@Aaa-vp6ugIt's actually a brand name, UGG. I personally don't like it. Sounds "ugg-ly" to me, but it's gained some popularity.

[@jembozaba4864]

Ugg boots are just loungewear shoes with sheep skin inside to keep your feet warm. Fantastic invention by Australia

[@Edujs23]

I think the problem isnt the boots, but the hazards, if hazards werent so busted to begin with, boots wouldnt be mandatory

[@RhysHill-ur8lq]

Stealth rock should do a percentage of the opponents health like spikes

[@fifnaf7290]

idk, having endless switches sounds like hell to me

[@quanghoang6901]

Rock is needed to punish switching

[@quanghoang6901]

But fr tho it should only deal extra damage to flying type who is immune to normal spike. 2x to fire, bug and ice is too far

[@dayvonlouis5187]

Well said

[@sigomare]

So what you're telling me is, they made a move, so busted that it invalidates lots of pokemon and everyone hates it and then they made an item to be immune to it but people are even more mad ? Is there anything to do that won't be hated at this point ?

[@ScatLuigi]

The people who hate rocks and the people who hate boots are different groups.

[@Labyrinth6000]

I’m at the same people that use the same exact Pokémon and same moves when a new generation comes out. Change TERRIFIES them.

[@patrickstar8132]

Like it was already said, those two groups are different. For the most part casuals are the ones often upset about hazards, while competitive players are more upset about HDB. The only time I can think of hazards seriously being despised by the community is Gen 5 with Spikes making the meta revolve around Magic Guard/Reuni and whatnot.

[@teejay1646]

The Pokemon community beginning to realise it might not be a well designed competitive game

[@HowlingOneify]

Ot doesn’t invalidate lots of Pokémon. Stop pushing this age old misconception. Pokémon that are bad in OU and thus place in lower tiers are bad for reasons that have little to do with stealth rock.

[@DarkBlueSharpieKnight]

i feel like boots is a rebalancing of hazards, and it give you more choices to use when they would be locked behind hazards. plus a pokémon using boots can’t use something like a choice item so it’s also somewhat of a sacrifice too

[@FalseSwipeGaming]

Please keep comments and discussion civil! The majority of Smogon players do NOT think Boots are broken but there are test tourneys and ladders that have been run with Boots banned as an experiment.

[@opgroundzero2.0]

Too bad the people who never engaged with the format and the metagame will forever generalize Smogon as this evil group. I genuinely think people should educate themselves about something before throwing around statements that are (usually) factually incorrect.

[@edt1201]

They have had multiple generations of boots-less play, they don’t need to run experiments 😂

[@SpritePony]

@@edt1201 This is actually insanely ignorant, as each generation has a different metagame to it with different mechanics, moves, and Pokemon. To compare something like Gen 9's hazard metagame to Gen 2's or even Gen 4's is nothing short of delusional.

[@user-wz7ji6vs7m]

@@edt1201 Bait.

[@jack7250]

With all due respect, with the title "The most controversial item in OU" reads otherwise.

[@Nuvizzle]

Hazards are a really important part of the singles metagame, but stealth rock was just a mistake. Type-based hazard damage is just such a poor idea on the face of it. It obliterates game balance completely to have the easiest to set (requiring only one layer), most widely distributed, least avoidable (hits non-grounded pokemon) hazard able to chunk a quarter or even half of a pokemon's health off instantly based on its typing. Rocks should've been addressed much earlier but unfortunately Gamefreak prioritizes the VGC meta above all else, and there's not a lot of switching happening there so rocks are often irrelevant.

[@darkdragon7210]

To be Fair since its a Rock Type move doesn't Type based Weakness make sense? I mean with Spikes & Toxic Spikes its set Damage/ Poison based solely on layers. Besides can you imagine 2 or even 3 layers of Stealth Rocks!?

[@Mr-Trox]

​@@darkdragon7210 If Stealth Rocks did damage equivalent to 2 layers of Spikes and otherwise acted like it does now, nobody would complain about them as much. They'd still chip everything, but it wouldn't be for up to ½ their HP for the crime of playing the damn game.

[@carucath97]

The idea the make a hazard flying types aren’t immune to wasn’t a bad one (poor ice and bug types though) but they really should have implemented it better

[@HowlingOneify]

It wasn't a mistake though. The only part of a mistake about it was not bringing more removal tools that same gen to balance out. It took some time but it ended up balancing better in later gens. There's a reason why rocks aren't seriously complained about by anyone playing at a high level.

[@bdt2002gaming]

Video Idea: Why Opportunity Cost IS Everything Rationale: Pretty much everything in competitive Pokémon comes at a cost. It can feel overwhelming at times to figure out how to check so many threats with so little available team, move, item, and Ability slots, among other factors. How do EV spreads affect matchups? How does one weigh the pros and cons of their decisions in such a quickly changing game landscape? And what Pokémon benefit the most from their role compression?

[@darkdragon7210]

Would LOVE to see this one day!!!

[@HerrSchizas]

I mean... Heavy-Duty Boots being controversial says more about Stealth Rock and hazards in general being a ridiculous mechanic than about the boots.

[@skillhunter4804]

It does not, boots are controversial because of their usage on rock neutral and rock resistant mons on bulky balance teams If volc is a problem with boots , the issue is volc, a QD user with insane stats But when zamazenta, ogerpon, etc. start runnif it and make switching in risk less, it becomes harder I personally don't have an issue with boots, i don't like the extreme distribution of spikes and the removal of defog from mons tht could threaten gholdengo, but the problem with boots isn't the usage on those mons

[@HerrSchizas]

@@skillhunter4804 You're not wrong, but why is that contradicting my message? Sorry if I missed your point. I don't mention the usage of the Pokémon being a problem, I was talking about how Strealth Rock and other hazards as a mechanic are ridiculous. If they're so prevalent and detrimental that they warrant the usage of Boots in so many Pokémon when blocking their removal is facilitated, maybe hazards are too overtuned. If you think about it, if no Pokémon has rock weakness or resistance, in a 6v6 singles format, that would mean 12.5x5=62.5% more damage guaranteed in turn 1. And it increases way more than it decreases with type advantage/disadvantage. But not only that, it punishes switching, one of the core mechanics of a battle. This was supposed to be balanced by Defog and Rapid Spin removing them, but in the past that has lead to wars of attrition where both teams set up hazards and the game basically revolves around constantly rmoving and reapplying them and who can nullify the Defog/Rapid Spin user first. That's also the reason why switching moves like U-Turn, Volt Switch and Teleport can be so oppressive when abused. Moves that interact with switching mechanic can easily lead to a crazy advantage when left unchecked, and hazards are no exception. So I think Boots being so overly distributed among so many Pokémon that don't even resist Rock type, despite those Pokémon being more suited towards other items most of the time, does say something about hazards as a mechanic, not just about Boots as an item itself.

[@tempestgreen1125]

@@HerrSchizas punishing switching is good though? That’s why they’re so healthy for competitive play.

[@HerrSchizas]

@@tempestgreen1125 Yes and no. Switching is a core mechanic in Pokémon battles. There's a reason abilities like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are so strong they're banned in many formats. Even if they're mostly given to fairly weak Pokémon, they can easily lead to the user setting up unpunished and sweeping an entire team. But it's also true moves that allow the user to exploit switching like Volt Switch, U-Turn or Teleport can be too oppressive. You could say that switching being such a strong mechanic makes hazards fun, as they make fights way more strategic. But even then, hazards are way too strong. Stealth Rock removing up to 50% of a Pokémon 's health not just from switching but also from being put into play after a KO is too much. So even if hazards are good as a concept, they are too unbalanced, way too widely distributed and too easy to abuse. They're pretty much another win condition at this point, and it's as easy as pressing a button. Sure, you can deny them or remove them, except it's not as easy because of Pokémon like Gholdengo. And they can just be reapplied later. So even if punishing switching could be beneficial for competitive play, I don't think hazards are the most healthy way to do it. If they retweaked them in a way they just punished switching, maybe, but in their current state, they add way too much value for too little cost, in my opinion. Especially when you consider using a suicide lead to spam hazards and outright faint is viable. I personally think they have too much value.

[@HMZeroTwo]

Controversial item to counter a controversial move, whaddya know

[@user-wz7ji6vs7m]

I'm not sure that hazards can be called controversial, cause there's not exactly a large portion of people that think they're broken.

[@Bladius_]

@user-wz7ji6vs7m No, any smart singles player KNOWS they are broken, but they also know how important they are because riskless switching in singles is even more broken. Stealth rocks was too far though, the amount of input for the potential payout is way too low. Very good players want SPIKES banned in gen 5 OU, because of how much they've warped the entire format. Other gens have similar issues with rocks fully twisting the game around them. They are objectively broken, the only question is if you think they're a necessity evil or too dominant.

[@softtaur4200]

*Stealth Rock is so strong Game Freak introduces an item who's sole purpose is to make a Pokemon immune to it in exchange for its item slot* "Heavy Duty boots are OP" HUH?????

[@RedBloodedMale777]

If any other item had multiple teams peaking #1 on the ladder across two generations as the only item on the team people would find it broken. Boots spam is literally the only item besides gen 2 leftovers to do that.

[@Dankfort]

​@@RedBloodedMale777it's only made necessary by the over centralizing nature of hazards

[@Bladius_]

Both can be true. People seem to forget Hazards weren't just added randomly, they exist for a reason and did stop degenerate "leftover switch-fests" Switching is too free, so hazards stop that, the hazards are TOO good so they have to make an item to deal with them. The item instead of mitigating them outright blanks them and we're back at step one; riskless switching. The issue is both hazard and boots are too good at dealing with the thing they're supposed to deal with, not that they exist. Not everything is black and white.

[@hdckighfkvhvgmk]

it's fucking WILD to me just how much stronger stealth rocks are in comparison to nearly every other hazard in existence. One layer, and you can take half of certain pokemon's health. Even with 3 layers of spikes the max damage you'll get is 1/4 max HP, plus several mons are immune to it. Tspikes has built-in counterplay with your own poison types, and sticky web is only placed on pokemon that would otherwise be pretty bad, mitigating it's effectiveness.

[@MusSupremeJAR03]

Finally someone says it, the problem is not the HDB, or all the hazards, but the stealth rocks that have been distributed in a criminal way, for me, the stealth rocks should be more exclusive, as is the sticky web

[@LilFrisbee]

Maybe all entry hazards should react the same way that Toxic Spikes work, the respective type removes the entry hazard (rock pokemon remove stealth rocks, ground pokemon removes spikes, etc) 🧐

[@roshanyuvaraj6771]

If that change was implemented, Rock-Ground types would be eating good.

[@homerman76]

I've been saying this for a while now. It'd be especially good for the rock types since so many have lost their place in the game (Poor T.Tar 😢,) though I don't know if Ground types should be getting that kind of a buff with how prevalent they already are, so maybe flying types blow away spikes and rocks are smashed by rock types🤔

[@alessandragonzales8190]

@@roshanyuvaraj6771 "Tyranitar dug into the pointed stones."

[@darkdragon7210]

I like this idea. Make sure you bring a Duo Rock/ Ground Type & way to cancel out their Weaknesses!!!

[@ForestX77]

This isn’t a bad idea. Glimmora would become one of the best hazard pokemon in the game being a poison rock type.

[@justarandompurplefox3243]

I find it distasteful to suggest we need less counterplay to a mechanic that renders so many Pokémon unviable

[@justarandompurplefox3243]

Choosing boots means you can’t choose another item instead. Boots can also be knocked off or tricked away. They’re plenty balanced, especially in a Gholdengo metagame

[@penguinlawyer]

Completely agree. The "vortex" strat might be cheesy and unskilled, but I'd argue teams dependent on hazards are even less skilled. If you as a player cannot build a team to cover and check your counters and the only way you can do so is by bringing a move that instantly deletes 25-50% hp off of a massive amount of pokemon just for switching in you're just not good at team-building. Hopefully, boots will encourage more skillful and thought-out teams rather than teams that overly rely on the busted mechanic that is rocks.

[@HowlingOneify]

It doesn’t render those Pokémon unviable. They have problems far beyond rocks and wouldn’t suddenly be viable without them. Sorry to break it to you.

[@enn1924]

Sorry to break it to you but even if stealth rocks were banned charizar would still be at the bottom of PU

[@TheZintastic]

To add on that, Rocks (or hazards in general) forces people to use/have spinner on the team, or... just basically suffer through it. One COULD say the same about using Knock Off to counter boots, but the difference is that Knock Off is stronger move even without the item ditching effect and it also works pretty much any opponent to get rid of their items. Rapid Spin, for comparisons, is there solely to get rid of hazards and even if it rises your speed it still won't be much of a benefit and to make matters worse you can also "Ghost Block" the move unlike Knock Off. Point being; boots were good addition to the game.

[@pedroH01]

Then why the heck isn't the hazard themselves the problem? If we have to run boots on everything just to counter hazards, maybe we should stop to think if maybe the problem is something else???

[@hppern3971]

Because what's you're asking for would slow the average game down immensely, as it would be far far more difficult to punish switches & pressure defensive cores. Hazards are massive in their ability to make singles games go far more quickly. Hazardless metagames have been tried, & people haven't liked them.

[@pedroH01]

@@hppern3971 I mean, sure, that's a fair point, but the problem is, we are clearly complaining about both hazards and boots, it seems both sides are at an extreme in some way. Even if we can't just ban hazards, maybe it should be at least experimented on some rule changes. But I not gonna pretend like I am a expert on the topic, I'm not a top pokemon player, not even close, I'm sure there's reasons for keep things like they are, It's just my opinion that maybe we should try a different solution.

[@Bladius_]

Because hazard exist to stop something even more broken: riskless switching. They went too far with rocks, but people seem to think they just randomly added hazards for no reason. They were a very deliberate addition, they have just overshot it and now boots have overshot how good they are vs said hazards.

[@kalarse]

Jim spoke about Stealth Rocks on his channel mentioning Heavy Duty Boots, and FSG now uploads the item video. I think Iron Mugulis is behind all this treachery

[@wentoneisendon6502]

Iron Fellow and old money are the puppeteers

[@Bladius_]

FSG is on the Old Money payroll. FSG talking about Boots gets boots banned, which means more rocks, which means more spinners; means Gholdengo gets to block said spin, increasing his stock and furthering his evil schemes.

[@omega-xk4gj]

No one wants to ban rocks but want to ban boots. Speaks a lot about the Competitive Butthurts

[@theimpersonator7086]

Rockless ladders have been tried before, much like ladders that banned Scald, and people didn't jive with it. The metas where hazards are the most complained about are Gen 5 and 9 Ou, and they are focused on Spikes not Rocks.

[@rjante2236]

Banning Rocks would break so many things. It's almost like Smogon isn't the format that GameFreak balances around 😮

[@joshuakim5240]

Personally it's always confused me as to why hazards didn't just get more counterplay expansions. Why not give more mons access to Court Change to flip hazard spam on its head? Why not have Rock types absorb stealth rocks like how poison types absorb toxic spikes to give the mostly-painfully-underpowered Rock type a lot more team utility? Boots seem to be a very short-sighted and overly simple solution that doesn't fix the problem at its core.

[@bakakubi]

Yup, huge reason why singles play is ass. There's a reason why official tournaments are doubles, not singles.

[@theinternetsightseer2935]

​@@theimpersonator7086That's because people who like fun decided not to play smogon while it's run by a bunch of stall-loving cuks.

[@rubyknights5885]

So, in other words, people got mad because Change and having to actually do something else

[@ricardoludwig4787]

This is why I think gen 7 had the best hazard balance. Hazard removers were strong and resilient and the setters weren't as insane, you could rely on hazards for progress but a capable oponnent could remove them and ser back your progress, so it steadily became more and more about controlling the tempo through them

[@rickyterheege20duitseherde36]

Stealth rocks is such a boring and overpowered move

[@alexmills9223]

PREACH!

[@thementalorder1233]

How would Stealth Rocks be nerfed to be more healthy for the metagame?

[@Cynsham]

@@thementalorder1233 Make it a flat % damage instead of based on type effectiveness

[@thementalorder1233]

@@jaretco6423 In that they can only use it?

[@thementalorder1233]

@@jaretco6423 That wouldn't nerf it at all. Stealth Rock would still be just as good as it was before, it's just now reserved to a handful of mons.

[@WarrickAuthor]

All they need to do is nerf stealth rocks. Make stealth rocks do half their current damage. 4x weakness - 25% switch in damage 2x weakness - 12.5% switch in damage No resistance - 6.25% switch in damage 2x resistance - 3.13% switch in damage 4x resistance - 1.56% switch in damange Something I've been thinking about is what indirectly makes stealth rocks so broken. It's that no pokemon is immune to rock type attacks in any way. It's essentially a mandatory damage effect. And with switching being a mandatory mechanic in pokemon, especially competitive pokemon, not running stealth rocks is just silly because of how much damage they rack up over the course of a game. Its such a game warping effect that you have to have a plan for it and you can base entire strategies around it, or the psychological fake out/pressure of potentially having it. Also, 4x weaknesses doing 25% compared to 50% makes a huge difference and would give more pokemon more options.

[@lorddelibird]

“You see actually it’s the fact that we can’t use hazards that is what is broken. Giving up your item slot that could be dedicated to something helpful just to avoid being crippled by them is just so broken we should totally ban the item” Do y’all hear yourselves?

[@Mixedplayers]

Cripples pokemon into using 1 item or just losing most of the time and it's somehow the HDB are bad, not rocks Classic brain rot

[@Oscar-ek2jx]

Can everyone stop thinking about the 10 pokemon 4x weak to stealth rock and remember how important hazards are for the health of the metagame. I dont think most people in the comments section have a proper experience playing competitive and dint understand that HDB allows endless stall and unpunished pivoting.

[@shorewall]

@@Oscar-ek2jx So the answer is that Stealth Rock should have been nerfed a long time ago. I don't think it should be dependent on type, but be more like Spikes with a set amount of damage.

[@nohrianscum9791]

​@Oscar-ek2jx most of the comments I'm seeing aren't calling for removal of hazards entirely, just pointing out how Stealth Rock is uniquely busted among the hazards. If they were like Spikes and only did a set percentage of damage without type weaknesses involved, you'd probably see less complaints about it.

[@Xahnel]

@@Oscar-ek2jx okay, how about the hundreds that are 2x weak and lose a quarter of their health switching in to rocks? Flying, fire, ice, and bug account for a huge chunk of the game, and you have to just accept their hp stat is cut by 75% due to the meta defining presence of rocks. And _any_ combination of these four types is 4x weak to rock, not just fire flying. Flying bug types might as well not exist in any meta where rocks exist. Articuno is just as badly affected by rocks as Moltres or Charizard. Rocks makes it so that pokemon that might otherwise be viable are just a little too frail to break into the meta. Hell, rocks is part of why Ice is seen as _such_ a dogshit defensive type, to the point where in Gen 9, the best defensive move an ice type can make is tossing the ice type. Rocks needs a nerf. Just take away the super effectiveness. Make it a _floating_ hazard, where it specifically damages things that would be immune to grounded hazards. Stealth rocks already visually float around, and rock is already good against flying, so this change makes sense. Hell, make stealth rocks hit through boots anyways, which would make stealth rocks the counter for countering hazards. This makes hazards still perfectly viable, while also offering additional back and forth counterplay that isn't just "boots go brr, hope you brought an item killer". Yes, stall is bad for the health of the game, but current rocks is too. One move acts as a massive barrier to entry to a good sized pool of pokemon. Something needs to change.

[@JedininjaZC]

Hazards have had it too good for too long. Boots give certain Pokemon a fighting chance, and it cuts down on hazard spam. Plus in gen 9 we have a problem of not enough viable ways to get rid of hazards.

[@Bladius_]

Boots on average just make good pokémon better, they don't lift up the underdogs. Common misconception. Not commenting on powerlevel of the item, just saying this "let the rocks weaks have a chance" idea is not how it plays out in reality.

[@foggy8298]

Rapid spin’s boost, glimmora’s toxic debris and mortal spin, gholdengo’s 3 way spin blocking, H-Samurott’s ceaseless edge, to a much lesser extent Kleavor’s stone axe, Cinderace court change, and heavy duty boots have been it’s own form of entry hazard power creep that started with the defog buff I think this is a rare good example of it, however. Stealth rock really just was too good. Halfing certain otherwise decent or good Pokémon’s HP on 1 switch in is ridiculous

[@nombregenerico7775]

THE TIMBZ

[@victordeluca7360]

Inb4 the "Most Controversial Move in OU, Knock Off"

[@slimestudios9748]

with people commenting "you fell off. just use Justified. smogoners are so whiny"

[@BigWes95]

Hazards were always way overpowered so ive never had an problem with boots

[@Mr-Trox]

Hazards have their place, they always have. The problem mainly lies in Stealth Rocks. Flying types and Levitators are immune to Spikes, and have access to moves that remove them in Defog and Rapid Spin, ensuring you don't sacrifice anything more than a single turn and a hit to remove them. Poison types absorb Toxic Spikes and Steel Types are immune, meaning you can remove them easily. Skarmory and Corviknight being immune to both of these with access to Defog is a good example of easy counterplay. Nothing is immune to Rocks though, meaning you're taking damage and there's nothing you can do about it. If it didn't scale based on weakness to rock, this wouldn't really be an issue, but it is.

[@booradley6832]

@@Mr-Trox It wouldnt be so bad if stealth rock was flat rate damage that increased or "sharpened" the more you switched. So on deployment the first switch takes zero damage. Then the next takes 3.125%. Then 6.25. Then 12.5. Then 25. Then 50. Does not apply on being forced out, does apply on defensive switches (volt/turn.) Creates an economy of switching and makes move coverage extremely important. Obviously my example is overtuned to hell just to exaggerate the mechanics but the point is, take the stall players switches away without letting someone get victimized by constant switches. That was supposed to be its function, but they just messed it up so terribly.

[@Mr-Trox]

@@booradley6832 I don't think stall teams would really get too much resurgence with a Stealth Rock nerf because recovery moves got majorly nerfed this Gen, with their max PP now being 8. Knock Off to remove their item, be it Toxic Orb for poison heal or Leftovers, or a Sitrus Berry, and you've removed a lot of their viability as a staller so long as you have a competently built team. Outside of Regenerators, I suppose.

[@Bladius_]

And free switching was even more broken before hazards. Hazards need to exist, but they did overcorrect with rocks, and them over corrected again with boots. They both need some "magnitude adjustments" but both, in concept, are fine.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

Also, the main problem is the strength of switching in general and the ONE answer to this powerful mehcanic: hazards There needs to be at least a combination of 3-5 other moves, items, abilites that punish switches. In addition to an ability that removes hazards on switch on a support mon with middling stats. EDIT!: Someone in the comments said rock types should absorb Rocks on switch in like poison types. GENIUS!

[@acc3209]

If boots are broken that means hazards are broken too

[@NobleDemonTim]

The Boots are NOT busted, since they're a necessity.

[@siddhantkamble9502]

Hazards are more of a necessity than boots actually.

[@Bladius_]

People in the comments are all starting at hazards as "step 1", but they're step 2 and exist to prevent something even more broken from earlier gens; riskless switching. Hazards exist for a reason, they just overshot the magnitude of how good they are. Boots are also massively overshot, since they fully blank hazards and are at risk of bringing back what hazard were supposed to prevent originally.

[@MusSupremeJAR03]

@@siddhantkamble9502 Nah, both are equally important, the problem is stealth rocks which is too good to be a hazard

[@pmahcgop6693]

Entry hazards have always been impactful. But they ascend to among the most controversial aspects of the game with generation 4s introduction of stealth rock.

[@somethingfunnyyt]

Ah, yes, let’s ban the item that stops pokemon from taking (in a worst case) 50% damage from a switch in and not the move that can cause a pokemon to lose (in a worst(?) case) 50% hp on switch in

[@Mr92094]

Isn’t the real issue that countering hazards is a mandatory part of the meta since no one has the balls to ban hazards?

[@oscen335]

Stall stocks go way up with hazard ban

[@baxterbruce9827]

You can hit more than one thing, stall doesn't need to run rampant for 6 months while you twiddle your thumbs about nerfing stall because it became good when you removed the single most over centralizing element in the metagame

[@TwiliPaladin]

​@oscen335 Can't win with stall anymore anyway. Most you can get is a draw, since Showdown limits matches to 500 turns.

[@oscen335]

@@TwiliPaladin limit is 1k turns, and stall does not take that long to break a team, and other playatyles shouldnt take that long to break stall tbh,500+ turns are kinda outliers

[@user-wz7ji6vs7m]

@@TwiliPaladin Do you not recall the stall team that hit top 1 on ladder?

[@Labyrinth6000]

Why couldn’t they just ban stealth rock in competitive? It only incentivized those to not use types that are weak to rock as it decreases their odds of winning.

[@LadyLeomon]

Hey a few Gens ago you could _stack_ Stealth Rocks, thinks about that! Edit: after scouring the depths of Bulbapedia I accept I got it wrong, no more need to tell me I got it wrong thanks

[@wailmoregd140]

Although Stealth Rock and hazards as a whole were, and still are, an extremely dominant part of every metagame they’re in, they tend to have a healthy impact on metagames, or at least something that isn’t UNhealthy.

[@Havyyto_]

@@LadyLeomon me when i lie in the internet

[@M4x_P0w3r]

@@LadyLeomon Wrong.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

@@wailmoregd140 Stealth rock practically makes pokemon with double weakness to rock unusable in competitive.

[@XC11301991]

This sounds really stupid that people think HDB is considered OP, when it should be the other way around on hazards being over prevalent in a negative way. Esp when the Pokemon sacrifices an item slot for it.

[@baxterbruce9827]

I've been saying this for years, I'm usually just told I "Don't understand the game" or to "Get good" or "Not build such rocks weak teams"

[@MidoseitoAkage]

​@@baxterbruce9827 feelsbadman.

[@enn1924]

​@@baxterbruce9827 hazards are good because they prevent infinite pivoting between walls, at least HDB prevents them from using leftovers for extra longevity

[@homerman76]

​@@enn1924 So the solution to a toxic problem is another toxic problem?

[@petelee2477]

@@enn1924 ok but stealth rocks still need a nerf. Taking 50% of your total health just for switching in is a lot of damage. Think about the stealth rock weak pokemon that thrived in OU in the past. Most of them were pseudo legendaries, legendaries, or mega evolutions with 600+ base stat totals like kyrum black or mega Pinsir. Only real exceptions were talenflame, pelipper, and weavile.

[@alter6243]

TLDR: Heavy Duty Boots is the “necessary evil” to the existence of hazards. To be honest, these items should have existed a long time ago. Rather than just nerfing hazards, this provides a counter option without removing the viability of hazards. Hazards are now high risk high reward rather than being a no risk high reward.

[@Dankfort]

I'm glad the comments section is sane and rightfully blames rocks instead of boots

[@paulmann8570]

A controversial item to check a controversial move. See if this were a Suspect Test, that argument wouldn’t hold up. “Broken shouldn’t check broken” as we’d say (not literally the same, but quite similar).

[@FrostGhidorahEX]

From the moment I saw Heavy Duty Boots revealed I knew they were gonna be good Ignoring hazards was basically the godsend some mons needed to shine after Hazards choked them out of potential viability To me the idea that Boots are too OP is silly. Boots are a counter. A counter is only as strong as the thing its meant to counter. If the boots are absurdly good that must mean the thing they're countering is absurdly good. I hope one day we see a tournament or competition where they decided to have it be hazardless If only to see what people do Cause maybe if a hazardless event goes well it'll wake people up to the idea "maybe these hazards aren't healthy" Or maybe it'll be a disaster and people realize hazards are important and by proxy boots are important as well

[@user-wz7ji6vs7m]

They've done hazardless things before, it didn't end well.

[@MusSupremeJAR03]

@@user-wz7ji6vs7m The mistake was to ban all the hazards, it is for some reason an important addition in the game, for me, they only had to ban the stealth rocks, which is the most broken of the existing hazards

[@Darumaster]

Wow Jim and False Swipe deciding to talk about Stealth Rock on the same day

[@paulomalley3211]

another thing about boots is they are only good due to the prevalence of hazards, if there are no hazards on the field like in the beginning of a game, one is essentially working with an item less pokemon which given the power of certain items is a big deal

[@user-wz7ji6vs7m]

I would also like to mention that if there are no hazards on the field, boots are actually worse than no item because you take the 50% increased Knock damage.

[@MusSupremeJAR03]

@@user-wz7ji6vs7m Also are a target for Poltergeist (which only works if the target has an item equipped)

[@FlyingNinjaish]

It's genuinely psychotic that people are saying the problem is HBD and not the one move that people are sometimes giving up most or all of their item slots to counter.

[@dayvonlouis5187]

It’s the same problem in Yugioh punish the fix don’t ban the problem

[@Cynsham]

At this point it's basically stockholm syndrome, they're so used to being at the mercy of hazards every metagame that they've just started to accept them as a reasonable part of the game

[@homerman76]

​@@CynshamThe worst part is knowing that they honestly weren't that bad in some of the previous gens, still a nuisance that needed more answers, but believably a reasonable part of the game. And then this gen introduced even more hazard setters than ever AND Gholdengo. Sure we also got one of the best spinners in the game so far, but the fact that they had to make a pretty busted mon to deal with the problem is pretty telling about how hazards are a problem and the only solution anyone can come up with are band-aids

[@j.alfonso8036]

If hazards aren't nerfed, then the boots shouldn't be nerfed either.

[@EonLess]

Hazards seems to have a similar state as protect. They seem like a core aspect of the game and if one things breaks them the entire flow of the game breaks. Except protect is arguably healthier.

[@WishMakers]

Mmmm I don't know which centralizing move is healthier, actually. Protect works so well in doubles because of the risk/reward factor involved in its abuse - but it's a pace stopper. Meanwhile, the role of hazards is very different and because of singles' generally slower pace and high amounts of switching, it's *the* pace setter to get both opponents to interact with each other. Both of these mechanics are fundamental because they create really important opportunities and define the pace of a match. If you didn't have Protect, offense becomes way too strong and the game becomes too simple. Meanwhile, if you didn't have hazards, a stall mirror would almost never end, and fighting defensive teams in general becomes way harder. You see both of these effects when Pokemon introduces ways around them - see how people tend to hate dealing with Urshifu! He's got the Protect Ignorance Privilege and its only saving grace is that it's on one Pokemon. If Singles had Item Clause I think there'd actually be no debate here, but there's basically no demand for that

[@TheZintastic]

@@WishMakers I would say Protect is far healthier though because it's also more punishable. If you predict wrong and/or the enemy predicts you're gonna protect you might very easily end up seeing the enemy Swords Dancing (for example) for free or - better yet - see them throw out their stealth rock. Meanwhile throwing out rocks offers basicaly gives you no punishment whatsoever other than taking damage in return, but it's arguably worth it because you get your hazards up for it in return. Yeah, sure, I wouldn't call that free by any means, but it's still far more of 'acceptable risk, great reward' -sort of move than Protect in my opinion. That said, Protect also has a place as a stall option to get some possible poison/burn ticks in and or stall out trick room turns, or by locking a choice item foe to a move and thus possibly forcing a switch that way for the opponent, giving you time to setup. ...or like back in the old days when it protected you while your double partner went kaboom trying to get a double KO, what times lol. It is an incredibly basic move, but also one with incredibly flexibility, but what keeps it healthy despite all that is that it is not spammable in succession. My point is that Protect, although incredibly flexible tool, doesn't affect the game as much imo such as rocks that you only use once (ideally, of course) and then watch as they "gather stonks" incredibly quick the longer the match goes.

[@Mr-Trox]

​@@WishMakers Protect has downsides that doesn't require the other player to choose a specific Pokèmon and give up a precious moveslot to counter it. It becomes increasingly likely to fail the more you use it in succession, discouraging you from gambling on even the double Protect unless you desperately need it. Yes, Urshifu is everywhere in VGC Restricted, but that's because it's so broken. Not because Protect is unhealthy for the meta.

[@WishMakers]

​​​@@Mr-TroxAll those things about Protect are true. SR is widely used because it actually forces the game to get shorter. People can play chicken for a looong time in Singles, and being forced to act is a good thing. You have the same form of risk and reward for punishing, but it depends on you setting up a timer of your own. Obviously releasing the hold that timer has on you is beneficial so hazard removal will be strong too. Being able to ignore your opponent's pressure is pretty broken with that lens, but it also enables flexibility in team building, so I think it's worthwhile to keep around. But it's important to understand the other side of the coin Also, I beg of you to actually think *why* Urshifu is overpowered, instead of just saying that's why people hate him - the reason he's overpowered is that, like Boots, he ignores a fundamental tool in the swiss army knife of the metagame and can just tear it wide open. There are ways around him and going through Protect is a power not given lightly, so not many other Pokemon have it, but people hate dealing with it for the same reason as HDB's hate. Think about other restricted legends like Kyogre, for example. Broken? Yes, obviously. But people will hate dealing with Urshifu more, despite having significantly less raw numbers power. Kyogre doesn't ignore Protect, and he even has additional ways of curbing him like Wide Guard. Now imagine Unseen Fist with a spread move. If Kyogre had that power on Origin Pulse, no one would be safe.

[@Mr-Trox]

@@WishMakers Urshifu's broken because he ignores Protect, yes. But like I said, that doesn't mean Protect is unhealthy for the meta. It means Urshifu ignores an almost inherent part of VGC format. If Protect wasn't a gamble past the 1st usage, that wouldn't be an issue. It'd be an important thing to have to break through Protect + Leftovers + Toxic stall, but Protect *doesn't* work that way. If Urshifu didn't break Protect, it wouldn't be as pervasive, with a good portion of team building for VGC Restricted based around "Can I defeat Urshifu?" The Gen 9 answer is usually Booster Energy Modest Fluttermane, so usually the answer is yes. It's different from Stealth Rock and HDB due to the fact Protect is a gamble past the first usage and doesn't (and has never) required specific counterplay beyond predicting when an opponent will use it, unlike Rocks.

[@emilygordbort7300]

Vgc players wondering what these "stealth rocks" things are

[@varelasensei]

I can usually tell when someone is an idiot depending on how they feel about Stealth Rock

[@varelasensei]

Maybe they should have just banned Stealth Rock. Spikes are fine.

[@GooseBibleTunes]

Fr

[@homerman76]

I'd love it if they changed Stealth Rocks to do neutral damage, that way there's still something for the flying and levitate mons, and then it won't be as oppressive. On top of that, rock type Pokemon should be thrown a bone and be give the ability to destroy them on entry, much like how poison types neutralize toxic spikes 🤔

[@SLASHY_SSB]

Pokemon really needs to find a new way to make forcing progress a thing. Hazards are far too strong and boots are a bandaid fix to a larger issue

[@SirePuns]

HDB are honestly a necessary evil, seeing how disgusting rocks were since gen 4.

[@a1joryj]

"Oh noooo I can't take off 1/2 health from Volcarona and Charizard just from them switching in and now I have to actually play the game to beat them, oh woe is me" >Everyone that bitches about Heavy-Duty Boots

[@Oscar-ek2jx]

This comment section is driving me crazy man. NO ONE CARES ABOUT CHARIZARD. Its pokemon like blissey and dragapult which can switch without being punished. Hazards have been important for making switching less broken. Also, a healthy metagame doesnt need to make room for every single pokemon. Stealth rock IS dumb, but it isnt broken because pokemon weak to it simply wont be used, which isnt the end of the world.

[@a1joryj]

@@Oscar-ek2jx Did we watch the same "How GREAT *is* Charizard Actually" video???

[@WishMakers]

​​​@@a1joryjTwo different priorities. Do Zard and Volc get massively hurt by SR? Yes. Should SR maybe not be based on typing to thoroughly destroy this kind of type combination? Yes. Especially because it would help against Steel types, which resist SR and are the defensive Pokes that need the passive damage that singles players care about. But when trying to do passive damage to stall - which most people also dislike fighting - entry hazards are by far the most consistent way to do it, especially since Toxic's distribution got gutted. This includes things like Spikes which I would hope most fans of Charizard would tolerate. If HDB *only* answered SR, and not *all* entry hazards, I think both camps would be much more aligned. But it's not, which is why it's controversial.

[@gunnarschlichting9886]

@@Oscar-ek2jx I'd argue the issue is no Pursuit. Bring back Pursuit, and I think a lot of the complaints about HDB would disappear. It was removing Pursuit and adding HDB at the same time that resulted in such a massive swing (an Teleport being buffed).

[@Aquilenne]

To be fair, Volcarona with it is actually really strong. But if that is a problem the issue is Volcarona not boots.

[@demi-femme4821]

One idea I had for a Rocks nerf was to give Regirock a new ability that lets it eat them for sustainence upon switching in.

[@nintendoswitchbrit4201]

The PKM community: Spikes and rocks are too OP GF: ok we'll add boots to nerf the power of spikes and rocks and keep them from being too OP also the PKM community: Boots too OP

[@Mr-Trox]

The crowd that hates the Boots and the crowd that hates Rocks are two very different crowds.

[@nintendoswitchbrit4201]

@@Mr-Trox The point is to show how impossible it can be for GF to balance the game without their being huge back lash against them

[@Fletch_078]

It's funny to think of how Volcarona would wear Heavy-Duty Boots. I mean, where would it put them on?

[@Cicada2204]

I mean it does have those little limbs

[@teddyhaines6613]

*Shrug* How does Wooper use Ice Punch?

[@theflashfan3234]

It's unhinged that HDB is considered OP and not Stealth Rock or Gholdengo

[@skillhunter4804]

SR isn't considered OP because without it flying types would be insane It is overcentrlizing due to making mons like moltres bad, maybe gamefreak can help by capping the damage at 25% but as things stand, 50% on some mons isn't too gamechangig outside moltres and volc And the bigger issue this gen is spikes, not rocks, and its insane distribution is what mkes this metagame quite stale, not gholdengo, most spike stacking teams tend to avoid it because corv is too passive even without gholdengo to block defog

[@ImmacHn]

Boots are good because hazards are too good, a set amount of uses per hazard would mitigate it, for example, having hazards last a set amount of switches or set amount of triggers, other than that maybe have rocks disappear if they hit a rock type or a steel type, etc, the problem with hazard is the need to overcommit on countering them.

[@mystc7081]

The answear is nerfing stealth rocks. It's too powerful in its current form that something equally powerful was needed to try to balance it. The change that I would make to rocks is it keeps the type damage, but it only works on flying types and anything with levitate, the only 2 things that are immune to spikes. I would also buff spikes's damage output to be 1/12 max hp for 1 layer, 1/8 for 2, and 1/3 for 3.

[@teddyhaines6613]

Don't Spikes already deal more damage than that, generally? It's 1/8 for the first layer, 1/6 for 2 and 1/4 for 3, so that's only an increase at 3 layers and a nerf otherwise.

[@MrMacdaddymcfly]

Item clause would keep boots in check but stealth rock damage needs to be capped at 25% some pokemon taking 50% is just absurd. Or if they don't nerf the damage they can let it have a limited number of hits before disappearing (stones getting stuck in the Pokemon reduces the amount on the field until they are all gone).

[@godknightomega]

Or just ban Stealth Rock.

[@mysticpumpkin8520]

I guess Achilles got Jordans to protect his heel. Tbh I am not that well-familiarized with singles, but knowing how even on VGC circles the infamy of stealth rocks (or pesky pebbles for friends), being able to just No U them is huge

[@poppyfrancis7338]

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about boots but I do have a strong opinion about stealth rocks: who decided it was a good idea to create an entry hazard that harshly punishes some of the best offensive types in the game with the downside of not clicking a damaging move instead? If a mechanic hard counters another mechanic that is extremely widely used and otherwise requires specific moves to not get rid of, we shouldn't be so worried about the counter and look into whether what its countering is the real problem

[@FMBeelz]

Hazards are just too broken

[@PeacefulZealot]

If boots are overpowered and omnipresent then maybe the moves that enforce such a meta game are what give them that status.

[@ewutermohlen]

I would love to see your take on the most broken mechanic of the game: Switching out. The whole reason why entry hazards, trapping moves and abilities became so meta game defining things in the first place.

[@MegaMachiOnline]

And this is why I love Item Clause for every Team. You want Double Leftovers? Too bad. Get a Poison Type for Black Sludge.

[@peteypiranalover]

Really heavy duty boots? That is depressing that this is so controversial. Hazards are absurd. Adding one item check is something. Oh.....wow rocks hit 4 mons instead of 5 wow.

[@patrickstar8132]

The only thing is the last part of your comment doesn't always apply since many teams do just have boots spam! (Idk the rest of your comment, just wanted to make that comment)

[@peteypiranalover]

@@patrickstar8132 I am aware. front can switch. And everyone else can switch changing the variable but close enough. But regardless 1 of 6 can switch.

[@Mr-Trox]

​​@@patrickstar8132 Knock Off exists. Nothing is immune to Dark Type attacks. It was also given to a ton of Pokèmon in Gen 8. It's a very useful move.

[@patrickstar8132]

@@Mr-Trox I'm aware, just wanted to state that often times it's not just 1-2 mons holding the item but could be up to 6

[@MisterJackTheAttack]

If stealth rock (and other entry hazards) was so powerful that it inspired a spam of a single precious item slot? And boots were the problem? I think the give and take of trying to predict your opponents and risk going without boots or stealth rock. That's a really neat dynamic. But no, ban boots to prevent that.

[@tyruku18]

I don't think this is a coincidence if JimothyCool and False Swipe Gaming were talking about Stealth Rocks and Heavy-Duty Boots.

[@mattdeluccia153]

Shout out to boots. Best item in both Pokémon and Fire Emblem

[@leonardocarvalho7306]

boots my favorite equipment gender

[@SharKing319]

I've pretty much always held the belief that the Boots themselves aren't broken, but their sheer prevalence, especially on Stealth Rock-weak 'mons in Gen 8 (before Spikes went batshit insane in Gen 9), exposes how broken the hazards themselves are. I strongly believe this is another error on Game Freak's part: instead of nerfing the obviously-busted hazard moves, they just threw the Boots in, which is basically just putting a Band-Aid on a brain tumor.

[@vla1ne]

Hilariously, spikes is only rising in popularity gen 9, because heavy duty boots reduce the value of stealth rocks thanks to the most SR affected mons generally being bootstrapped in so often.

[@maxsilverman1883]

I think a majooir issue that people overlook is that Boots and Lefties are the only two items that are actually splashable and can be used on pretty much any mon. Other items, like AV, rocky helmet and choice items are great options, but are not as easy to fit on mons. If there were more universally splashable items, I think boots would not be as common.

[@generaldreagonlps6889]

If they don't like boots they can just ban stealth rock. Likely boots will be much less common if their primary reason for using them doesn't exist.

[@GoldGuard]

The new editing style goes hard

[@BlahBohogun]

With item like this being added I feel like certain pokemon abilities should be updated, namely Frisk and Pick Up. Frisk should steal the item from the opposing pokemon on entry and Pick Up should allow the entering pokemon to pick up any item in the discarded pool due to Knock Off and Fling.

[@iridescent7816]

Strategy that relies on free hazards isn't strategy I want to watch _or_ play against. If Heavy Duty Boots are so "horrible," it's solely because hazards were horrible to begin with. It needed the check.

[@Rainbakku]

Might sound extreme, but the requirement for every match to have 'Rocks up was what made me learn to loathe singles as a whole. Heavy Duty boots are a godsend and I'm so glad they finally made a hard check to 'Rocks. Not just a buff to Rapid Spin or a bigger distribution of Defog. Those are tape over a wound, in my eyes.

[@BetaNights]

Honestly, the outcry to ban Boots just seems extremely silly to me. They literally would not be as "busted" as they are if it wasn't for the brokenness and centralization of hazards in the first place. There's no defense for it. Yeah, blocking hazards brings back crazy threats like Volcarona, but the fact that a huge portion of the Pokemon available just get nuked into unviability from the mere existence of a single move is insane to me.

[@hppern3971]

Hazards aren't important for Volcarona, hazards are important because lf the steady chip they provide that allow switches to be punishes & defensive cores to be threatened. Without those hazards, games would last far longer. The playerbase allows for Charizard to die to hazards as a sacrifice for that consistent source of chip to remain in the game.

[@AverageGamerGuyPlays]

Rather than just ban things, they need to let the meta evolve naturally. As stated in the video, as more people bring Boots, more people will bring Knock Off, then set up rocks anyway. So I don’t understand how it’s not balanced already. If the ‘mon holding boots is already running away at the first sight of a Knock Off user, then surely that’s a good thing? You’re forcing the switch of that Pokémon straight away. I just really don’t understand how people think boots are broken but Stealth Rock isn’t.

[@shorelinefishing9213]

The fact that stealth rock was so common it was just easier to deal with vs wasting a turn rapid spinning is why boots was needed.

[@discodeath8425]

They'd rather ban boots than the broken moves that were the very reason that boots even exist. Amazing.

[@adolfojuangarcia1906]

I think there should be other types of Stealth Rock such as fire or ice. But you can only have one set up.

[@aquilonthepro8319]

I was thinking smth like "Ghost Fire" but we already have Will o' wisp lol

[@Rick_Rolland]

I have been wanting this for years.

[@Labyrinth6000]

Stealth icicle would be VERY interesting, though it would make all the dragon users MAD. 😂

[@teddyhaines6613]

I think that'd just exacerbate the biggest problem of rocks - namely, that a hazard doing super effective damage is cancerous, and needlessly centralizes the metagame around Pokemon that resist the hazard.

[@Ceece20]

Why not just see that you are causing the other team to no longer use their item slot for berries, z moves, or leftovers? Like if they are spamming heavy duty, then they aren't using other items. Just the threat of a broken hazard is enough to forego any other item means you won't get any other item. Now you just need to beat the other team without items. If that is too hard for your team, that just shows how much hazards were carrying your team.

[@mylorddio8272]

So long as Stealth Rock is in the game, and banning or limiting of Boots in any way, shape or form will be bias

[@simpleman3898]

It makes sense that eventually there would an item that counters hazards.

[@reilorenzo]

I don't understand how people want to ban Boots but no one cares to ban stealth rock... which in my opinion are cheap AF. It makes more sense to just get rid of rocks. I'm glad boots exists if rocks are going to be in the game 🤷🏽

[@chrifox6423]

the only reason boots are so good is because hazards are broken af. they make pokemon that would otherwise be great borderline to be borderline unviable

[@HowlingOneify]

And what mons are those? Do tell (spoilers there aren't any)

[@chrifox6423]

@@HowlingOneify did you even watch the video

[@slimestudios9748]

yeah i feel like the situation with Boots is like the situation with GSC Snorlax; centralizing, but a necessary evil to prevent the metagame's near-collapse

[@determineddaaf3]

I think the best way to make boots less widespread is by nerfing the entry hazards that are too oppressive so that they aren't as necessary in the first place. Something like reducing their damage or putting a limiter on how often they can activate would help make them more balanced so that teams don't have to spam boots to deal with it.

[@pages4573]

Kind of love people are finally realizing that Heavy Duty Boots aren't the problem. But rather singles and the fact Stealth rock is so powerful. At the core, it's a band-aid fix to the fact that entry hazards in singles have always been somewhat busted, and probably could use more ways to to remove them. You're still giving up an item slot to protect yourself against a singular category of move.

[@joshlemmy8663]

> Get rid of Sleep Clause because it doesn't exist in the game > Avoid item clause at all costs ?

[@djt08031996]

Yeah, an item clause akin to species clause would be my vote

[@kingwailord4143]

Item clause would just make no sense for old generations, since they don't have enough items. Only the new gens would be playable with an item clause in place, since theres acutally enough item variety to make teams. But at this point its been well over a decade of no item clause in singles and trying to convenience people to (seriously) try it is not going happen.

[@HowlingOneify]

Item clauses do nothing but make extremely narrow team building in singles. There aren’t nearly as many splashable items for all kinds of teams and would just stagnate building and make the game worse.

[@enn1924]

Item clause is an arbitrary restriction, the only items that can be spammed are boots and leftovers which isn't really overpowered

[@homerman76]

​@@HowlingOneify I'd argue it's the opposite, we have a wealth of potential items available to each mon and having to pick and choose who gets what would encourage much greater diversity in team building, and would go a long way to hindering stall teams since they can't just double up on leftovers or whatever else they would like to use to increase the longevity of their Pokemon

[@EinSilverRose]

Spikes and Toxic Spikes not dealing super effective damage, or at least instantly toxic poison weak mons, makes them perfectly fine so why in the blue hell does Stealth Rocks deal super effective damage? If it just dealt some chip damage sure it'd still be annoying but as it currently is Stealth Rocks completely shuts down anything weak to Rock and making Heavy-Duty Boots a must have for these Pokemon.