The Most Realistic Modeler? Does it REALLY Matter? Fractal, Quad Cortex, Kemper, Helix or ToneX?

[@GraemeCampbellMusic]

I've had the NUX MG30 for a while now, and especially since the recent update with Pro scenes etc, its really impressed me. Such a great sounding unit, especially for recording.

[@franki68]

30 years of amp and pedal buying did me no good , it’s digital all the way the last few years and you know what ,I’m not endlessly chasing a tone that doesn’t exist and very happy with my setup and it does not matter if something sounds like an amp what matters is does it sound good ?

[@nathanieldahman9268]

Same. TONEX has gotten me more inspired to play and have fun, which is the whole reason I started playing guitar anyway. That, to me, justifies WHATEVER means to that end.

[@EdBender]

Same. Traded a noisy bulky signal chain for a mid tier modeler (no names) and couldn't be happier.

[@thepedalreview]

I think all that matters is you’re using a unit you enjoy the feel, sound, and UI of the most.

[@christianwilliams1136]

I think that the cabinet you play thru plays a big role in the tone live, as most of the best cabs are made of wood, and just like an acoustic guitar once you have enough volume the wood will start vibrating enough to give you some bass and mids which I think is where the warmness that everybody likes comes from. This would explain as well that when you play with a load box at a room volume, it does not excite the cabinet enough to give you those warm tones of the cabinet, so it doesn't excite you as much in terms of tones. I think this is why the Fender FR 12 sounds a little bit more real than the other Fr speakers because they are using plywood to build their cabinets, and once you are pushing enough volume thru, it will sound a bit more like an amp in the room. Most famous amps cabinet are made of birch or pine which probably gives them that sweet warm tone.

[@mikegamby]

I can't stress how much i love that Fender FR 12. Being able to walk over to the amp and make a quick EQ change during a live gig is so much easier then making a change on the modeler or even just trying to make a change on wedge style FRFR. Or even just when i'm playing at home depending on where my ears are at that current time.

[@christianwilliams1136]

@@dalearezzo Well you can try the experiment stick a really good spearker into a plastic casing and then compare it with a wooden cabinet and let us know if there is a difference in tone. I bet you you'll have a huge difference in tone.

[@joeltunnah]

No, having a speaker cabinet resonate is not a good thing, and good speaker designs try to eliminate this as much as possible. Solid wood is the worst cabinet material. MDF is the best, although not road-worthy.

[@YMESYDT]

In my personal opinion, I’ll take any decent modeler with a good tube power amp and a real cab over my favorite tube amp loaded down into an IR. I really don’t think this conversation often enough factors in how much the back end of the signal chain makes a difference, but that’s also personal preference.

[@StephaneBergeronPixelyzed]

Yep! Definitely personal preference and also venues and how they dictate stage volume. The last couple shows we did was 100% Helix and in-ears. Before that I always used my amp and mic'd cab. But I thing John nailed it when speaking of in-ears. My issue now is not wether I prefer my real amp and cab or my Helix floor, in-ears are a huge compromise for me. Ultimately, I prefer my real amp and no in-ears, but if I have to use in-ears, I actually prefer my Helix. My patches are stereo (chorus, delay, reverb) and it sounds in my ears closed to how I tweaked it in my full headphones and studio monitors (my in-ears and over-ears full headphones are the same brand so they sound really similar). My studio monitors is how I keep honest as they are very neutral and give me a realistic representation of how my FOH sound will be. And quite frankly, I prefer leaving as little tone shaping to the FOH sound person as possible ;). Regardless of the modeler used, I think the cab part makes a huge difference. As good as the post 3.50 Helix cabs now are, I prefer using IRs of the same speakers I have in my 412 (mix of 2 V30s and 2 H75 Creambacks). Even in in-ears, that makes my tone instantly more familiar and it sounds a little less digital to me.

[@JamesFlorio-ti8gc]

I agree 👍🏻💯... Almost everyone.... probably us too at one point lol...went down that ..." Make my Helix" or whatever unit sound like it's run through a cab just like a amp lol... anyone who ask me I tell them all, use a amp and cab of choice don't cheap out on the cab and Viola there is that tone gloriously being heard through a mesa 2x12 with vintage 30s

[@henrydanielgatlin9774]

With the GX-100, as soon as I got AWAY from the FRFR stuff and hooked into real 2x12 pine cabinets, the tone was practically identical to my tube gear.

[@56brever]

Same here. Not sure why people feel tied to frfr.

[@bazilbrushrocks]

The answer is the Fractal. But then the video would have been a lot shorter.

[@rmp5s]

Just got an Axe-FX III a week-ish ago and, man...the rabbit hole is DEEEEEEEP. If you can't get the sound of your real amp/cab/mic setup out of it, that's on you. lol The answer is always Fractal. 🤣

[@alien4422]

I sent my Fractal back. I now have a Kemper Player and I'm happy.

[@dirgmario]

@@alien4422 but that's up to the user. You can simply use the basic view of the amp block and not ever touch any of the other parameters that change more technical and user-irrelevant values. You can just plug and play any of the Fractal modelers and it will sound and feel excellent, no need to make a million tweaks unless you want to. And no, the most iconic sounds ever created on records were amps through mics, preamps, compressors, tape machines, consoles, rack processors, etc. Guitar tones have always been very processed since multi channel recording was invented. They haven't been simple since the 60's.

[@bazilbrushrocks]

@@alien4422 I’m sorry for your loss

[@alien4422]

@@bazilbrushrocks Believe me it's no loss.

[@nmcgregor1990]

You're absolutely right. The modellers are so accurate sound wise, but in a live context, it's all about the cab and specific sag and other factors that dictate the "feeling". The "feeling" of playing an amp is only possible by playing an actual amp.

[@stevemorgan9626]

Eric Klein is correct; it’s all in the cab. I bought a Powercab, never found it satisfying. Played a gig where I had a 60’s Bassman cab, so played Helix into Powerstage 170 into Bassman cab (second path into foh). Was beautiful, juicy, very happy with that sound. I now have a mesa 1x12 for cab. Very happy with that sound, don’t feel like I’m missing tube amp at all, even though I have 4 great ones.

[@msi1985]

This is such an interesting topic... But the thing I've noticed is that I only run into the issue of it sounding like a CD into a 1x12 combo when I use my Fender FRFR... It's darn close for clean and slightly edge of breakup tones and a few solid rock tones etc. but anything really high gain is just not well defined in the low mids and mid section. My solution = record using IRs cause it sounds great for all genres but for live use I have a 50w 6L6 power amp and an actual 2x12 guitar cabinet... I use the Quad Cortex so I can run 2 lines for my presets, 4 cable method for running line 1 into my real amp and line two has a pre-amp and can that goes to XLR out 1 this lets me have real stage volume with an actual amp to push air against the back of my legs and the option to go to FOH with a pristine sound that the engineer likes! This comes down to personal opinion of coursez this is just the solution I've found that works well for me... It might be terrible for somebody else. Love these videos and great playing as usual

[@pearsonart]

Answer: no. 1 My first preference is the Tone Master Deluxe Reverb because it sounds right and pushes air. 2 The HX Stomp is undeniably the best complete solution. There’s almost no gig or session a capable guitarist couldn’t get through with just that box.

[@jonalexander8935]

My Kemper is real enough to me and my audience. At 52 is real enough for saving my back!

[@gddfhjiufcv]

I've got lots of experience with fractal, helix and Quad cortex and the fractal always sounds the best across the board. It's something about the way the harmonics dance around, particularly in higher gain models that makes it sound the best, it's just so much more inspiring to play than the helix and quad cortex which always sound too restrained and digital to me. The dumble models and cleans are superb too. If fractal nail the UI in the 4th generation of products (touch screen etc) It is over for everyone else in the upper end of the market.

[@steveliberty]

I prefer to play my modelers through a Class D power amp and a real guitar cabinet, usually a 1x12, loaded with one of my favorite speakers. My main cab has a JBL K-120 inside, and I find the results to be very pleasing. I resist doing comparisons - instead, I just listen to the sounds and decide if they make me happy. Silent stages are a different animal, but since I don't play those sort of venues (when I gig, its usually in a bar), it isn't a problem I have to deal with. Too much time is spent deciding if a model sounds "exactly" like the real amp, etc. Note - some of the best amps in the Helix world don't actually exist in the real world. So there is nothing to compare to.

[@oliverchapman51177]

this is exactly what I do. run a Le Clean into the power amp in in The Katana Head into a Victory 1x12

[@AmericanNationalist852]

No one puts out updates and adds free amps/effects/IRs like Fractal, like not even close. That alone puts them a step above all the rest, let alone the quality of their algorithms, which are on a whole other level

[@spada60]

Ya but fractal sounds like digital crap. Headrush is more realistic when playing modeled amps through it

[@AmericanNationalist852]

​@@spada60 ok guy 😂....

[@asharpbflat7179]

​@@spada60does it matter? I don't think any modeler sounds like an actual amp. Ofc, in a mix or at bedroom volume it'll be unnoticeable. But played loudly in a room "digital" simply won't give you the same response. If that's "crap" in your ears, ok, but don't tell me there's such a difference between certain modelers that one of them won't sound "digital" compared to another.

[@xlilxillx]

@@spada60bruh … headrush is ancient tech from eleven amps. Fractal literally created the technology for modern modeling & continue to refine it at a rate much faster than the competition.

[@rmp5s]

​@@spada60🤣🤣🤣...riiiiiiiight right right...tell me more. rooooooooofl

[@jonathanwapner6262]

It doesn't necessarily solve for everything, but my preference is a compact analog power amp that has some tone shaping and an amp in box pedal. I use the Quilter PowerBlock 201 and a JHS Angry Charlie. It works with real guitar cabs or use a Two Notes Torpedo Captor to connect to the house. Real knobs, real tweaks.

[@michaelschneider7590]

Might a fair answer be, it’s still early days? First generation CDs (and possibly digital-mastered vinyl) did not sound as good as all-analogue “real” records. But that gap closed quickly. Most of us prefer music without the scratches, clicks, and pops that vinyl inevitably acquires. What I do miss though is the non-musical ancillaries - handling a 12” album and reading the cardboard sleeve.

[@Macmax7077]

Nah, it has been the same add since the 80's/ This will sound and feel like a real amp. BS. Vinyl is still king and amps too.

[@probusexcogitatoris736]

Early days? Digital amp modellers have been around since the nineties. Go back thirty years from that, and you end up in the sixties. The Helix has been around since 2015 and Axe-FX since 2007.

[@FelixAlexander_Guitar]

Last week I was at a Jordan Rakai concert and it was revealing. The guitarist played a Fractal FM9 and unfortunately he was completely lost in the foh mix. I'm convinced that he would have been locatable with an actual amp on stage. I noticed it many times before at other gigs that the guitar is not connected with the sound of band. That's the biggest issue for me with modelers.

[@david_farmer]

Not saying this was the case for the OP, but I’ve seen it enough times to mention that when running any modeler into anything using an amp speaker, make sure to bypass the cab or IR in whatever output is feeding the amp.

[@johnzuker]

Recording wise, I still notice the difference between real amps and models, particularly in the mix stage. I’ve had most of the brands (Fractal, L6, NDSP, Tonex), and I’ve found that a real amp (even with IRs) is substantially easier to place in a mix.

[@javymontoya]

I agree with this phenomenon, and actually think the same principle applies live. I can cut through way easier and sit back way easier with my Suhr PT15 than my FM9. Regardless if silent stage or not. It’s not a boost the mids thing 😂 Interesting.

[@kevindaigle]

I've never been a die hard tube guy but I do have to say that the first time I owned a fully tube amp it did sound like I wanted in my head. That being said I think it is totally possible to dial in a great tone with digital gear. I use hybrid rig of a headrush mx5 ,a few drives and analog chorus into a blues junior and I think it sounds great

[@AmericanNationalist852]

I sold all of my amps and most of my pedals and went with an FM9, not regretting it a single bit. I think the real problem most people have is they just aren't investing in a decent FRFR, and having it set (physically) correctly so all frequencies hit the ear, because they are very directional. I went with a EV PXM-12MP stage monitor so that it's always facing towards me while i play in my studio, standing or sitting, without having to prop it up awkwardly. It's also one of the monitors out there that doesnt have that FRFR white noise hiss like others (sounds amazing in general)

[@kevindaigle]

@@AmericanNationalist852 for me I find frfr cabs a little bit shrill sometimes because they are more like a PA speaker, for me I prefer to run into an actual amp but that's the beauty of guitar and music in general, everyone is different

[@jwright8838]

There are two great differences between a modeler or capture tech and a tube amp, in my opinion. The first really can only be fully experienced by the player. The feel of a digital representation of an amp seems to be, at best, different and at worst, inferior, to the feel and playability of a tube amp. There is a difference in feel. This difference can be mitigated by playing with impedances or placing analog drives before modelers/captures. The second great difference is found in the high end sparkle or sizzle and low end thump or attack that a real tube amp has. The Tonex and NAM seem to be the best at reproducing this, however, there is still lack of information in the high and low end that is there with tube amps. In my experience, these two differences decrease as gain is increased.

[@nicholasaragon4126]

Most of the reason why solid state or modelers into real cab or FRFR get a bad rap is because most people that own them aren't pushing them above 85 db. A 12 inch speaker pumping that hard will give plenty of feel regardless of the circuitry. At that point the tone will be there but some of the 3D feel, tube sag, and responsiveness will be slightly missing. The best way to dial in a digital or solid state rig is to run them A/B with a tube amp, same volume, switch them back and forth, tweaking until they're indistinguishable when you close your eyes.

[@javiermp81]

Exactly this 1000x !!! It is the moving air factor and not the type of cab or power amp. On stage with an 8” monitor speaker, even my miced tube amp sounds thin and lacking. The modeler through a good 12” stage monitor sounds very good, and through the PA it sounds glorious, just like a cranked tube amp.

[@nicholasaragon4126]

@@javiermp81 Fooor sure! I always run either a real cab or 2 FRFRs myself (or all the above, or alongside a real tube amp, all depends on the situation). I'm currently happy with a 12" Fender and a 8" Headrush combo. They both produce a nice array of frequencies together no matter if it's my vocals, acoustic, electric guitar or bass, it's all covered without me having to lug separate amps and personal PAs and whatnot for everything. Even take it to parties for some killer sounding Karaoke

[@MrJingles021]

I've got a pedalboard I go direct with. I'm using the Two-Notes Opus with a Crazy Tube Circuits Crossfire as the clean preamp, and then I run a Revv G2, G4 and Northern Mauler into it. I use the Opus on my bass pedalboard and use the Walrus Audio Badwater as my preamp. Both sound excellent live. But I'm wondering if I should have gotten an HX Stomp. At this point it would have been cheaper than all the overdrive pedals I've had.

[@4gcole]

Nice Larry Carlton tone at the end! 😊

[@delilah9741]

Good video I never said it that way, but 100% I have felt that a multi-effects unit sounds like a CD. Just adding 1 fuzzy pedal to the signal line feels like a huge improvement to me. Like a 250 or big muff or a rat on a lower gain setting, instead of built in pedals. It adds the chaos, which is missing. But I am using a cheaper multi-effects unit, so IDK.

[@picklesnips3378]

The answer is truly if you want the perfect world you have to use your modeler like an amp and run it through a tube power amp and cab. I’ve ran both through IEMs and can’t tell a difference. Maybe slightly in the low frequency response but it would be splitting hairs. In the room nothing can replace a tube power amp and cab. If you’re running a silent stage with IeMs then there is no reason to drag around a tube amp

[@davidfaustino4476]

Yes it matters. And no it doesn't matter. The question should be.. do you prefer amp in the room tone or recorded amp tone???

[@ceniam12]

The "Amp?" sample sounds clearer to me. Does this means it's the real amp? I don't know haha but the other one is a bit muddy.

[@Eliminator-rl9sn]

From what I did experience with digital amps in live situations so far, has not really to do with sound than with playing feeling. I used a Kemper with a custom made FRFR once and soundwise my world was almost perfect. One day the FRFR cab had to go into service and I had to use my then backup which was the Amp1 of Bluguitar with a real guitar cab on stage. This amp is extremely near to a real Marshall. And there I noticed that the feeling to play this thing was noticeably different to the Kemper. The Kemper hat to go..... After some years I am still playing the Amp1 and also an HX Stomp with an FRFR. And these both devices are very similar being used live. When using in ears the difference gets even smaller. I am trying to get a Fractal unit until the end of the year since the Fractal units have lots of Marshalls in their portfolio and Line6 lags somewhat behind in this respect compared to Fractal. I am very curious how the Fractal is going to feel..... Soundwise I have no doubt about its quality.

[@probusexcogitatoris736]

My number one question to all these guitarists who feel their modeller does not sound like "the real thing". Have ever heard what you sound like on the floor? Or are judging by your experience on stage? So many times, the problem is that guitarists have no clue what they actually sound like to most people in the room/venue. They might think their sound is full and punchy while the audience hears a shrill undefined noise. I'm always baffled when I meet or see guitarists who just randomly hang a mic in front of their speaker and don't give a second thought to what they sound like to the audience. They spend thousands of dollars on gear and are obsessive about tone wood, vintage pedals and tubes... but, just don't give a damn about what they actually sound like.

[@nicholasaragon4126]

They are always on about "feel" and what everyone else feels is irrelevant. Nevermind the people who paid and traveled to get a good auditory experience. Sure the amp on the stage sounds good for 1 guy and the few that may be ON AXIS. Meanwhile the sound guy has to do what he can and the rest of the band has to mix around the holy Grail of tone they think they've discovered. That's also why the second they are out of the studio, the engineers Re-Amp the recording and mix the sound properly.

[@primaballerina84]

To me it's all about the feel with a real rig, tube or solid state. It's about the finger to string to speaker to ear. It's an experience and not just a "sound" when recording or live make zero difference to the listener in my opinion.

[@chrisdaviesguitar]

why do you never mention the Mooer GE300?

[@4gcole]

First one is the modeler 😊

[@thesparkedbrain]

The Fender Tone Master Pro is the best.

[@tiago2336]

yes, it does. from those the most realistic its the fractal. by far.

[@joeltunnah]

"Gary from NY" should just buy a Catalyst cx 100.

[@RogerThat902]

This is what you get when guys who haven't played are making the rules. Some of these targeting calls are absolutely insane. The worst thing for me is when a ref calls the result instead of the intent. He saw Brock's head hit hard and he guessed it must have been because Walker drove him to the ground. Just insane stupidity.

[@jedi_417]

Wrong video dude.

[@effektgeraeteinfo]

It only is important for individual musicians and the manufacturers. Means absolut nothing for the listeners.

[@Dan-of-NJ]

I agree with the writer. There is a digital quality in the modelers that is apparent. They dynamics are not the same as a real amp. Synthesised sound is how I describe it. I anticipate that the next generations of modelers will do a better job. I have both. There is a difference. Modelers are serviceable but that's it.

[@AmericanNationalist852]

Greetings fellow NJ native 🙋🏻‍♂️

[@Dan-of-NJ]

@@AmericanNationalist852 👍

[@JasonT-xp3kh]

You're gonna be waiting a long time for the next generation. Only so much can be done with current chip tech, and we're pretty much at the end of that particular rope with nothing new on the horizon. The current chips are pretty much it for the foreseeable future. If the economy hits the skids or a major war breaks out, we're looking at more than a decade before we see any new tech hit the market.

[@guitartoneSA]

It's nonsense. Watch Creed or Tremonti live. Mark plays his signature Suhr amps and Eric Friedman has been playing Kemper live for years. You wont know who's playing the real amp and who's playing the Kemper. Watch Andy Sneap interviews with Wolf from Accept, Accept have been using Kempers live for ten years using Andy Sneap Profiles. Andy talks about punching in certain guitar parts when he recorded their albums using his Profiles and he can't tell what's the mic'd amp and what's the Profile.

[@guitartoneSA]

@@JasonT-xp3kh Digital tone basically hit the ceiling in 2012 with the Kemper. Nothing new today using fancy chips sounds and feels better than the Kemper. The algorithm makes the tone not the chip. Yes new tech will improve user interfaces and fancy screens, but that stuff don't make tone, the audience doesn't know what UI or computer chip you used to create the guitar tone they're hearing. And all these null tests demoing how the QC or ToneX is 5% more accurate than the Kemper is nonsense....move the mic an inch or two and suddenly the null test is irrelevant.

[@hartlee1160]

Can your computer monitors or headphones sound like real amps? No it doesn't move the air the same way. I miss the kline strats!

[@GuitarsOK]

The Springfields did (do) sound great! K-Line!

[@hartlee1160]

Helix preamps INFRONT of a good real amp and cab gets you there. Effects loops arent usually voiced right. Effects loops help reverb and delay surround the guitar sound Youre using a real amp tho😂 Helix drives do well on real amps too. If you want to use the amps preamp gain

[@10sassafras]

The second one is the real amp. Starting transient gives it away.

[@zoomzoom3950]

this has been true of modelers since the beginning, but they're improving. what is still missing is digital modeler + FRFR = sounding like an amp "in the room". Not sure if this will be achieved or if there's any point to achieving it. I like / use modelers because they are the full signal chain sound (ready to record or sent to FOH). In the small dive bars around here, where PAs and monitors are weak, cranked tube amps still rule, and PA is used for vocals only, no amps are mic'd. A 40W DSL40CR, Fender Deville, Vox AC 30 work fine.

[@bryantwalley]

I ended up having to get a realistic modeler because my imaginary one quit.

[@89ji76]

It’s fractal and it’s awesome but it does not matter in the slightest

[@mehegama]

i think the guy that sent the mail does not know how to dial his gear

[@RodolfoSF]

4:56 thats a song of a mexican singer lol si no te hubieras ido - Marco Antonio Solis lol

[@sevenaevin]

No modeler has this depth in sound. All modelers are polished and hard in sound.

[@paulpetkovtrio]

Voice Sound 🙄😮‍💨

[@gdawgs101]

Bro intentionally ignores the Tone Master Pro every time 😂. His vendetta against that unit specifically is so weird. Probably because he gets checks from Fractal 🤷‍♂️

[@angrybuzzy]

I don't believe he has one anymore so he can't compare it right now.

[@Macmax7077]

Modelers suck just like today's music. Maybe there is a link.