The Most UNDERRATED Grappler Design In Fighting Games

[@thomasdeutelmoser8986]

Great video, hopefully more like this in the future! The more niche the fighting game the grappler comes from the better.

[@PatriarchPanda]

I put a ton of time in so this means a lot! Thank you

[@Dru884]

Clark was a true terror at the arcades back at the 90's.

[@PatriarchPanda]

ohh he was. can you tell me his best iteration. I wouldn't mind doin a bit of research on that.

[@Dru884]

@PatriarchPanda 96', when they change the mechanic from evasion to roll, even final bosses, SNK final bosses were less difficult with him.

[@WoobertAIO]

@@PatriarchPanda It's either '96, or the current one in XV. He has several invincible and invulnerable command grabs in XV, and he's been A-tier since release day so that's kinda nifty I would say.

[@maosama3695]

​​@@PatriarchPanda kof 98 and kof 2002 both um and arcade. In fact ralf has always been a top tier in any kof games. High mobility thanks to running mechanic and super jump and short hops. Pretty good unique normals as well. It is rare not to see him in tournaments. And because his grabs are 360 motion its easy for players to learn and convert to play as him. He's weakest was kof 13 but still he's top tier in that game because he can unga bunga damage but in exchange henlost some of his bread and butter normals but most characters in that game lost a lot of stuff.

[@AlanJHPlata]

Ralf only shines in KOF 99 - 2001 due to the assist mechanics and then he starts being top tier by himself in KOF XI. In previous games he is just lacking but his saving grace is that he is the easiest character to play

[@Bazigrappler]

I love the fact that Tizoc is King of Dinosaurs in kof xv. They are the same person BUT HE WEARS A MASK ON A MASK ON FACE

[@isaiahhellems7901]

Tizoc was straight D tier in og Mark of the wolves. I still played him regardless and I beat people who played Kevin or Gato. Can't wait to play him in City of the Wolves where I guess he'll actually be a much better character.

[@Spit1990]

I love this type of content. I noticed some weird audio cuts. If you need someone to do cleaner edits on your audio, let me know.

[@PatriarchPanda]

hanks man. yeah just noticed after upload and I was shocked about it. I think my editing software did an oopsies

[@ArctheLadder]

Honestly, Zangief from SF2, and most predominantly in Hyper Fighting, was the forerunner to this style of grappler where you're trying to slip into your opponent's range and throw them. The King of Fighters has grapplers with similar evasive moves, nasty ones, but I do want to say that Tizoc is still a definite iteration on that concept and identifying that is sick. You may have mentioned the lack of combos, but I think the elephant in the room and, why we shouldn't just celebrate everything fighting games have done, is that that throw bug is what prevents Tizoc from being a legitimate character. And it is a bug that intersects with a deliberate design decision that defines the character, which is that he is supposed to predominantly be trying to throw you. It is overtly clear that throwing you is what his goal is, and it's amazing that even though he's denied the most obvious use cases of the Justice Hurricane that he can be insanely difficult to deal with when played effectively in certain match ups. The major thing I want to say is that there isn't a straight line that fighting games take, they're not all trying to be Street Fighter, which is the type of grappler you're describing. I can see how the Garou Densetsu/Fatal Fury series would be appealing to us with a Capcom Street Fighter background because Fatal Fury has always had a sort of kindred feel to it, even if only deceptively. But the reason I say this is that just going "Tizoc should have combos" is a kind of gaffe or flawed assessment in that it is bizarrely denying him the identity that he's clearly meant to live or die by, so it fails to criticize the game failing to live up to the design it is putting in the player's hands. People payed money to play this game on a per match basis! The fact that SNK would soon go bankrupt may be an explanation, but really it's that The Griffon Mask/Tizoc is one of those tragic character designs where you want to love what is there even if the game doesn't love you back. There is a version of Garou where this bug doesn't exist where Tizoc can effectively Just Defend/Guard Cancel and punish all sorts of moves that he cannot in the version of the game we don't have. It gives him a distinct identity rather than just being another character who wants to combo you. I think it's also worth noting that King of Fighters characters, an SNK game, are truly unique prior to SFV Gief Critical Art in that they do not need to "trick you" or lull you into a false sense of security to throw you, they can just combo into command throws. They represent a forerunner, I'd dare say a relatively untapped mixed martial arts/total fighting concept that you just don't really get when the flavor of your fighter is more like a pro wrestler. I was hesitant to leave a reply, but I do want to end this on a positive that I think looking back at previous games and seeing how games differed in the past, looking for ideas that were left on the table, those are definitely things I love seeing. I just also wanted to be constructive rather than potentially blow smoke so to speak.

[@PatriarchPanda]

no this is great. I love seeing stuff like this as it helps me learn from it. I kinda wanna make this a series on grapplers in general. so this helps a lot trust!

[@drychineb1835]

Awesome video, all I knew about Tizoc was that he struggled for various reasons but it was sick seeing it all laid out like this! Editing and flow was super solid, looking forward to your CotW content

[@PatriarchPanda]

One thing I absolutely looking forward to

[@Okami_HD]

Some wonky edits in the audio department but outside of them very good video, I've never really delved into SNK's library even when I've gone back to play older fg titles so might give the game a shot, especially with the new fatal fury on the way.

[@PatriarchPanda]

I'm super excited for the game. I'm sorry about the audio issues. don't know why that happened

[@MisterNefarious]

I strongly recommend experiencing a handful of old and new SNK games. They make really funny stuff. Always have

[@chasepalumbo2929]

You definitely owe it to yourself to experience some of the classic SNK titles. Between the Last Blade 1 and 2, Samsho 5 special, KOF 98, KOF 2002, Garou, Art of fighting 3, KOF 13 and KOF 15 I guarantee you’ll find something you like. There are probably titles I missed as well

[@alainchristienemendoza9982]

Thunder and Hisako are grapplers from Killer Instinct. It is a criminally underrated fighting game. Hope you check them out because it is a hidden gem. Highly recommended.

[@PatriarchPanda]

I would love to do this but I gotta do mad research. This is in the list tho cause I love thunder. Hisako I ain't got that knowleddge

[@goldskarr]

Hisako is weird because she walks like a fish breathes air but her dash covers mad ground. And she has a teleport and plenty of counters as well.

[@robertallan9154]

@@PatriarchPanda Hit me up for KI tech, one of the BLF players has been a Hisako main since day one so I've plenty experience playing them :)

[@PltO]

Well now I'm hyped about the new city of wolves game

[@PatriarchPanda]

oh yeah they have great designs so I'm extremely hopeful!

[@Countdownsmiles]

You weren't before? I think it's the best looking fighting game in a long time

[@PltO]

​@Countdownsmiles wasnt really on my radar until very recently, I am pretty new to fighting games in general

[@Countdownsmiles]

@@PltO which one(s) are you playing now?

[@PltO]

@Countdownsmiles I bought strive and gbvsr during the winter sale, ended up liking strive more so that's what I'm playing atm. Also tried skullgirls but while I really liked it, trying to watch competitive matches was just way too chaotic, so I shelved that. Got 3s setup for fightcade, and I am looking at trying uni2 and maybe bbcf if it goes on sale. But 90% I'm just playing strive for now.

[@matteste]

Man, Max is never gonna get to live that moment with Hugo down.

[@taylorbee4010]

3s is magical man Like a kung fu movie you can’t put down but always rewatch. Epic becomes normal because it happens so often lol.

[@The_Nei]

Hakan is always someone in SF I hope makes it back. Another pretty unique grappler. I started playing Garou a few months ago with my friend and could instantly feel something was just different about Tizoc. Super hyped for him and CotW in general

[@WeaponXSigma]

Good old Hakan, the one who got the "Oil up lil bro" memes started in the first place.

[@WoobertAIO]

Fun fact: the main reason why Tizoc is bottom tier in MOTW is because his command grabs are bugged and their hitbox is non-existant under certain conditions. Conditions which are universal to every character in the game and can be replicated on demand. I fully expect Tizoc to be nearly top tier in Fatal Fury: COTW if his grabs aren't bugged. Edit: Ah you mentioned it

[@PatriarchPanda]

just saw the edit, that's funny. yeah I tried to research as much as I could

[@hafirenggayuda]

Never knew about it. So that's why he felt so underwhelming in MOTW. No wonder SNK replace him with King of Dinosaur, which is TOTALLY new character

[@e-maestro]

Great Content bro!

[@PatriarchPanda]

thank you! Imma keep the grind up

[@Error-wn5gy]

Thanks for this video! Was wondering about Tizoc's unique tools, since I've been doing some MOTW digging with COTW on the horizon. I think SNK does a genuinely good job of mixing up the grappler archetype, and Tizoc is only one example of that. (Btw Tizoc was also very strong in KOF XI, though it was in a different way since there is no high/low evade and no feints in KOF) I hope even though his walk speed is slower they keep his unique movement and evasive properties whilst improving what he already had going for him. See you in COTW!

[@PatriarchPanda]

Thanks! means a lot you enjoyed the video!

[@rendidatriansyah6103]

a very good Tizoc ad. now i appreciate him more esp after the clip you've shown in the last segment. will go back to some old evo vids to search for Tizoc match for sure

[@PatriarchPanda]

yes colossus and AUT are class tizoc players worth watching!

[@TravisOuttaHell]

This vid is hella dope, This is different from all the retrospectives and top players pumping content. Keep up the good work fam.

[@PatriarchPanda]

thanks! I'm think of making this a series so looking forward to i!

[@TravisOuttaHell]

@PatriarchPanda make one on the evolution of Alex's Forward Heavy Punch.

[@iliakatster]

The idea that evasion is somehow less frustrating than armor is hilarious. Like yeah when you hit armor that hit stop highlights how much you screwed up, but at least you get to take some of the grappler's health in exchange, evasion creates essentially the same effect, using high commitment move on a read to bypass neutral and start strike throw mix, but now the grappler doesn't even get a health tax for it.

[@PatriarchPanda]

tbf he has to place it insanely well compared to armour, that's the minor difference. I can imagine saying oh good duck compared oh he armoured.

[@getrightincbuff]

Great video, my guy. Well done!!!

[@PatriarchPanda]

Thanks! put a lot of time in

[@platypuspracticus2]

Grappler content? Instant watch.

[@PatriarchPanda]

yes brother

[@wilsonaguiar4646]

Literally clicked because of Tizoc. It was a sad day when he was replaced in KoF 😢

[@jellophant9716]

Well, he's back!

[@wilsonaguiar4646]

@jellophant9716 yeah finally after like 10 years

[@jellophant9716]

@@wilsonaguiar4646 10 years is like 1 year in fighting game time

[@wilsonaguiar4646]

@jellophant9716 Not for a OG like me. It's like 20 😂😂

[@LeZer0]

Not really an obscure one, but I'd like a video on Iron Tager

[@chasepalumbo2929]

Hell yes, always love some SNK content

[@BaronDeGunther]

Tizoc its been my favorite character since forever and I always love to play it in the few games he's in. They changed it a lot in King of Dinasours but at least is something :')

[@vondoctor3198]

Honestly this tizoc guy seems pretty cool, but maybe we could do with a new and improved version of him in city of the wolves, kinda like how Jamie is to yun and yang. A hawk 2 perhaps

[@PatriarchPanda]

YES!

[@Nostoloex]

Thanks man for the nostalgia trip! But there's something wrong with your mic sometimes when it kinda doubles what you say

[@PatriarchPanda]

Yeah it happened after the upload. Very weird

[@trackbloopers]

Garou its my favourite fighting game ever, i hope the next one don't be like the last snk games ;c

[@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361]

This game is to this day, the only time I've ever mained a grappler. Tizoc is the GOAT!

[@PatriarchPanda]

HE IS THE GOAT!!!

[@roadhoundd.]

Evasion taunt, the ultimate disrespect.

[@PatriarchPanda]

It's too hype! Don't know how often you would see it tho

[@DJNenz]

Looking forward to City of the Wolves and seeing how he’s gonna play in that.

[@Kalebent]

I loved Tizoc. Best animations ever for a grappler without a doubt.

[@PatriarchPanda]

Gotta agree! He has sick animations!

[@KurohigeDTeach-yy3yk]

Interesting. I never played as Tizoc in Garou as a kid. Interestingly enough I'm 32 and i enjoy picking up wresters/grapplers in fighting games so it'll be interesting to see what i can pull off in COTW

[@PatriarchPanda]

have fun man!

[@mullerlira4391]

I'm happy that garou is getting more love, can't wait for cotw!! Also, you're born in 1999?? Dude already looks mid 30s

[@PatriarchPanda]

that's crazy. I think it's the beard lol

[@elshinweon4485]

Tizoc true combos: 1. LP -> Super

[@PatriarchPanda]

yes

[@ThatCreepyReading]

Hype ass video my dude

[@PatriarchPanda]

Thanks creepy! Hope you've been doing well my man!

[@bqing87]

Bruh I’m watching this and this feels like how Manon should have been with how she feels incomplete but I guess I’m just gonna drop SF6 for Garou on release.

[@PatriarchPanda]

yeah she comes close to that style I would say. her problem is that it is VERY committal

[@Coswalker27]

Damn you have a really nice room.

[@PatriarchPanda]

Thanks it's a pretty good vibe

[@juvereturn]

won't be underrated anymore once the new one comes out.

[@PatriarchPanda]

so true! Hoping to keep the design principles with him

[@grizzlybrian3034]

Beowulf will always be my favorite grappler

[@glacierwolf2155]

SNK grapplers are built different.

[@PatriarchPanda]

Yeah love how they did tizoc, and clark!

[@imafreakinninja12]

Well grappling in KoF games is pretty awkward most of the time...

[@PatriarchPanda]

Tell me what you thought! Should I cover more grapplers!

[@bassbusterx]

Do iron tager next (jk jk)

[@PatriarchPanda]

... maybe one day

[@ShinUltima]

Chromedone from SNES TMNT: Tournament Fighters. The only instance of a grappler+ Dhalsim that I'm aware of (there's a big body character in Da Ku Ga who is Dhalsim-like but I don't think he's a grappler)

[@PatriarchPanda]

this sounds mad! wouldn't mind lookin into it!

[@brentacomoose]

I will listen to someone talk positively about grapplers for hours.

[@ameladaptivedaydreamer949]

Another thing you forgot to mention about grapplers. Literally my favorite archetype because... They are generally big muscular man. Many of them were my gay awakening even before I knew I was gay 😂

[@PatriarchPanda]

yes brother

[@flipbobbobby]

Stand medium?

[@PatriarchPanda]

sorry C (SP) My ass plays way to many fighting games

[@flipbobbobby]

@ oh it’s fine man my SNK brain just did a double take

[@homurayurisquad1423]

best grapplers ever imo are Tamaki(aquapazza) and kira(arcana heart)

[@PatriarchPanda]

I'll look into it

[@homurayurisquad1423]

@@PatriarchPanda it's a good time to get some interest in aquapazza, if since it just got a long overdue steam release announced recently. tamaki is a s tier grappler who spins faster and do more damage if you mash spinning faster during her command grabs, she's kind of like snk grappler on steroids. has short hops, running, an eye beam thats a full screen instant projectile that stuns and does emotional damage with no damage. god press thats god like. and gains emotion while getting hit to make her scarier. kira can basically do what every grappler dreams they want to do. fly around the screen, gain all sorts of weird tools and gimmicks based on arcana choices, since she's an arcana heart character. command grab during weird clash situations or tech traps, snce the game has throw protection during hit stun or no tech/ basically if you tech combos, you risk getting command grabbed, and if you dont you might get invalid combos, which makes playing her different from other air dashers. the game doesnt have males, so she rides around in a blob she created to make a big body character.

[@StanNotSoSaint]

Shermie

[@MegafanX123]

I think a grappler that also deserves his own video is the knight André from Dual Souls The Last Bearer. He is not only a grappler, but also a parry character, and he have a rose taunt that works just like dudley, and not only that it also buffs his command grab up to 3 levels! He have a super armor install AND A DIVE KICK! But now talking about Dual Souls... Did you know its a indie fg *with rollback netcode* made by Turkey? And not only that: You can buy it very cheap on pc or switch... OR EVEN FOR FREE ON MOBILE DEVICES! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING? PLAY DUAL SOULS NOW!

[@PatriarchPanda]

would have to look into this but does very unique

[@brentacomoose]

I somehow read that as Andre from Dark Souls 😂 Never heard of Dual Souls but I'll look into it when I finish the video.

[@kodaiyoung]

Tizoc was never underrated to anyone who plays other games beyond street fighter.

[@YaGirlGumption]

That's cap af. I've never heard anyone speak about tizoc at all outside of this video

[@kodaiyoung]

@@YaGirlGumption Well, that's on you for tunneling your knowledge about fighting games.

[@unrulydgj9589]

Cover grappler Shermie from KOF

[@PatriarchPanda]

that could be fun! any specific iteration you find interesting!

[@unrulydgj9589]

@ 2002

[@KAHN571]

ZOC!!!!

[@PatriarchPanda]

THE ZOC!!

[@KAHN571]

@PatriarchPanda Can't wait for COTW

[@taham33]

now do Shermie

[@kudosbudo]

think i need a translation for some of this video. well most of it.

[@Chubbypunch]

Hey, just some constructive criticism; This video just contains a lot of half-truths, and i think a lot of them come from you not having played this game against people. The most obvious one is you practicing counterhit combos off normals that cant counterhit. Then theres also stuff like saying Tizoc cant combo into super, which is just false, as well as just a general misunderstanding of how Tizoc functions (which tbf he barely does). It's fine to share your thoughts on a character design from an old fighting game you think is interesting, but you shouldn't just make stuff up because youre unfamiliar with the game. People will just take that stuff and start parroting false info.

[@PatriarchPanda]

yeah mb on the counter hits. When it came to the combos I hav visuals at the end to show some of his routings. Fair enough on the feedback tho!

[@Sorcerer_Lynx]

Best grappler of all time = Iron Tager the red demon, change my mind

[@PatriarchPanda]

nu huh

[@koniokrad778]

Watching this made me realize how much 2d fighters downgraded upon a years, its crazy

[@koniokrad778]

btw, crazy content bro like montage, gameplay scenes, comentary, camera, time stamps, everything is on point, I'm so hooked bro nice job buddy

[@PatriarchPanda]

thanks I put a ton of time into it!

[@Sonlokill]

/subtitles off

[@ShinUltima]

Tizoc is my favourite SNK grappler, though that has mainly to do with the fact that he's closer to a Capcom-style grappler. I do like his design a lot, though. But _man_ . His kit is NOT designed well in MOTW. The idea is cute but it really fails in execution. As it is, he has near zero sauce. I think the only grappler character who has less sauce than him might be _Fatal Fury 2_ Big Bear. I initially thought he wasn't as dry as Zangief in _SF2: World Warrior_ , but then I remembered that SF2 Gief was a link _machine_ , so MOTW Tizoc is actually drier than the original grappler character. It wouldn't be so bad if his throws were better. But aside from the bug mentioned, I found his SPD to have a crippling lack of range, even the LP version. And Heracles Throw is all style and no substance, giving you basically no real benefit over just landing regular 360 grab. He's just rrally undertuned in MOTW. Hopefully he'll get some actual sauce in COTW.

[@PatriarchPanda]

yeah again I think the design is great but the balance was an issue. like if he had a strike game and the bug didn't exist. complete character.

[@araigaruestavius5]

Tizoc & King of Dinosaurs are the same character, you shouldn't misinform people

[@PatriarchPanda]

I WILL MISINFORM AS MUCH AS I CAN MWAHAHAHAHA

[@santaclaus3175]

Sorry to say that, but the whole video is pointless. Normal moves do not counter in Garou, it's a training mode bug. It just shows that you don't really understand the game.

[@PatriarchPanda]

I missed this part during my research but not the way you wanna act when you want people interested in a game. do better

[@santaclaus3175]

@@PatriarchPanda Once again, I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. I play this game pretty much every day, all your points about either the game or Griffon are wrong.

[@PatriarchPanda]

I think instead of being negative and saying "you're wrong" Tell me what I'm wrong about so I can do better. I did a ton of research on the super combo website for my information and watched many tourney videos wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Garou:_Mark_of_the_Wolves/Tizoc like help me out here

[@santaclaus3175]

@@PatriarchPanda Title: The character isn't underrated, he's bottom 3-4. You made a clickbait title, that's part of why I was being a bit rude, I'm not gonna lie. - Griffon doesn't have a great throw game. - His TOP is OK-ish at the very best. - He doesn't have good damage at range. If anything, he literally has 0 damage outside of his command grab. - What makes Griffon playable is that HE DOES have massive normals. That's the only part that makes him not suffer against most characters. - His neutral is more than decent, it's probably top 3 in the game. - His 50-50 game isn't really that strong, thanks to the IAJD option select. You can trade hit or choose to get hit by something that will do way less damage than the actual command grab. - Match-ups are brutal. He's got way worse than 7-3. Also, bare in mind that 7-3 in Garou is near impossible. It's an old SNK game. - Kain's break is +11, not +7. - Griffon's jab isn't slow, it's a 4F like most jabs in the game. Plus it has an insane hitbox. - The throw bug isn't specific to Griffon, it's true for all characters. You misunderstood what the bug actually is. The bug creates a 50-50, so if Griffon decides to delay his punish, he will punish his opponent. It's not an autopilot thing that works every single time. Throw bug > Throw. Delayed throw > throw bug. - All characters have the same health in Garou, only the scaling is different.

[@GazettiSF]

​@PatriarchPanda @@santaclaus3175 i gotta agree with this dude. i wouldnt say i agree with how harsh he is being but when hes right, hes right. this character is perfectly rated and not very good in this game. he just gets crushed by anyone using the tools that game has to offer nearly any character in the cast. he has to work in ways that most players will be able to circumvent because they will know his gameplan. sorry man. the video is pretty pointless.

[@taylorbee4010]

It’s because you can tech his command throw in Garou.

[@PatriarchPanda]

nope

[@impulse_xs]

I always hated how SNK took Tizoc and turned him into stupid ass King of Dinosaurs.

[@PatriarchPanda]

I don't hate it but I do miss tizoc

[@silverphoenix684]

You do know Tizoc literally says his own name and the correct pronunciation of it right? But you "love" the character...🙄

[@PatriarchPanda]

???