The New BMC Teammachine is (Almost) Perfect | The NERO Show Ep. 53

[@h4rdcor31]

For Gravel Worlds starting position was based on UCI points. Keegan had a mid pack start at best, so him being able to make up that ground to even make the first group selection is an accomplishment. He also mentioned that the 2nd group didn't have any motivation to try and bridge. EDIT: I'd also like to see what a 5-7 hour race would look like.

[@abcxyz6880]

It was 5 hours and guys Mohoric Just get better the longer it is

[@christianschwedler2447]

I think Keegan's call up position was more or less at the back. Don't think he has any UCI points to speak of.

[@cjohnson3836]

@@christianschwedler2447 His only UCI race was Cape Epic

[@christianschwedler2447]

Yes, that was it. I heard it on the Adventure Stache podcast but can't quite remember what his ultimate call up range was. But it was something really bad. Wasn't it in the 180-ish range? Even if it wasn't quite that bad, he must have spent quite some energy in the first 30 minutes to ultimately show up on G2. Really, really impressive!

[@GCPerformance18]

I absolutely love the new BMC I’m a huge sucker for aero bikes. And this too me is an ideal look for aero bike for me ❤❤

[@Sign_Hero]

I might have to get one!!😊

[@thomasjackson4702]

I really enjoy mine, its fast, light, great handling and acceleration, holds speed extremely well with ENVE 6.5 wheels.. S-WORKS SL7 + Trek Madone SLR = BMC Teammachine R 01

[@MD0886]

BMC have problems with arithmetics, the top end model is priced at 14,999€ but if you source the components individually online and only buy the frameset from BMC, you can build that same model for around 10,700€!! DT Swiss ARC 1100 DICUT db 62 Wheelset: 1,800€ SRAM RED eTap AXS 2x12 Groupset with Hydraulic Disc Brakes & Quarq Powermeter: 2,900€ BMC Frame + Handlebars + bottle cages as per the website: 5,999€ Total: 10,699€ So that leaves 4,301€ for what, the saddle & bottom bracket???????

[@PatrickLino]

This show is the best. I always appreciate both of your perspectives, thank you. No connections for me when it comes to the major bike brands. One can only dream one day haha. - P.S. I may be looking for a training coach next season.

[@ralphmartinez8616]

Alright wooooooo. Hopefully they don’t have some wacky feminist on this time ❤

[@browngavi]

congrats man! I'm a big fan of your work!

[@RideWithGerben]

Hey, don't go GCN on us Patrick! Bloody hell.

[@Matt28NJ]

Let's get Patrick on the Nero Show, please. 😀

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Loving the reviews Patrick! Now we just need to get a Bianchi Oltre over to you somehow 😉

[@christopherbaird4952]

Re: planned obsolescence: if it's mechanical it's your job to keep it running. If it has software then you're only renting.

[@macht4turbo]

Is this really the case for electronic shifting? There are no meaningful functional improvements to be had and no security updates whatsoever. Also nobody expects compatibility between old and future groupsets really, mechanical doesn't solve this either. I don't think the usual software rules apply here. What are your examples?

[@channul4887]

@@macht4turbo if you crash and need to replace components, how are you going to pair them if your masters decide that their app doesn't support this particular electronic groupset generation anymore?

[@macht4turbo]

@@channul4887 Come on, don't be hyperbolic, how are you repairing a broken mechanical derailleur, when your old mechanical groupset doesn't have replacement parts anymore? Products had lifecycles all along. Don't get me wrong, that should be as long as possible, but electronics don't always make everything worse...Batteries should always be user replaceable for example. With sustainability being a big factor right now and for the forseeable future as well, manufacturers will have to adapt to that as well.

[@channul4887]

@@macht4turbo"how are you repairing a broken mechanical derailleur, when your old mechanical groupset doesn't have replacement parts anymore?" Give me an example of mechanical groupset that can't be fixed. I'll wait patiently. And besides, my point wasn't about spares - these can always be fabricated. It's the legacy software that is the problem. You can have a warehouse of spares, but if you can't use them because you're limited by software, that warehouse is worthless.

[@TheRimBrakeGuy]

Mechanicals except full meltdown or crashed with a press they can repaired. The problem with electronics is that they stop logic boards to be fabricated, they change ports and voltages and you end up with a brick where no parts are available unless you find new old stock or used from some marketplace.

[@benmayes7962]

I watch you guys while I’m doing my zone 2 now

[@pierremaggi8661]

Pair that with the Wild Ones podcast to have enough time in your zone 2 ;)

[@JordanHammond7]

You've probably been told a hundred times by now, but Payson McElveen has done what you asked and ridden the gravel worlds with a camera recording the first hour highlights of carnage. Great POV footage.

[@obrienwspt85]

Listening to your chainring chat made me realize that an interview of Russ from Pathlesspedaled by you two would be very interesting. Y’all could not be more different from him in terms of cycling interests/priorities, and I think that would make for a fascinating episode. I like and appreciate all cycling KZbin, and seeing such different cycling KZbin personalities interact would be great.

[@valiantabello]

He's mentioned Path Less Pedaled as a channel he would never watch and has no interest in.

[@obrienwspt85]

That is what would make it fascinating.

[@sheldonrevis9268]

DUDE, if you thought Keegan was supposed to win this race you better start watching more cycling. That's ridiculous. The fact that Keegan got in the top 10 is an enormous accomplishment. For F' sakes, he beat Wout! Yes, Wout wrecked...so did Keegan, multiple times. I was hoping for top 20 at best for Keegan. He is a monster here in America, but lets face it, cycling isn't the same animal here as in Europe. With all that said, make this race a proper American Gravel race, double the distance and make it as much gravel as possible and Keeg's may have won this. Bravo Keegan, made America proud.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Yep amazing performance. Prepared to have my mind changed on my original take.

[@Flexb777]

I opted for KZbin premium about 4 months ago and WOW why didn’t I do it before!! Fantastic as I’m a huge You Tube watcher. Great episode guys…👏🏻👍🏻

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks man!

[@EYEupP]

Chris, by far the best gloves I ever used (have a couple of pairs now, as they are favs) are Sportful. Even when I crashed and broke my hand, gloves are just fine still even after sliding on the hand for a couple of meters. Can't recommend them enough. And they fit my hand perfectly as well.

[@bitchoflivingblah]

Second that - though i wasn't as surprised as i've bought Sportful bib shorts/tights and jerseys because of the high quality of their products which they sell at very reasonable prices.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Hey guys, thanks for the heads up. I'll check them out

[@larrymcgoldrick3471]

What style of Sportful glove do you have?

[@bitchoflivingblah]

@@larrymcgoldrick3471 I have a pair of the TC Gloves (total comfort) Sportful gloves but these are for super long days. These are fingerless. My favourite fingerless gloves these days are the Santini Brisk gloves which I now pretty much all the time and rate these the best I've ever owned. They are pretty cheap to buy at 35 UKP and aero to boot. They are light, discreetly padded you don't even notice you have them on.

[@EYEupP]

@@larrymcgoldrick3471 These are my favs - Sportful Neo glove ; These are good for the hottest of days - Sportful Air 21; and these are if you are looking for "slick" gloves, but are my least favourites of the three - Sportful Race 21. The point is, they really fit nicely on my hands and the bottom is made of a strong material and they didn't tear even when I fell and was sliding on the road for a couple of meters. Nothing visible on them and got additional points in my book after that.

[@halcyonCorsair]

I think it's called the Teammachine because it has the same geometry as the SLR but in the most aero form. Presumably if they still do a time machine it would have a more "aero" longer lower geometry.

[@Datboyvideo]

I think with the BMC Teammachine R, the best option is to build it from frameset up. Frameset $6000, Wheels (your choice) $2000, groupset - discounted SRAM Red $2000-$3000. Still come in $2-3k cheaper.

[@aser885]

Gravel worlds has the same issues MTB marathon have in that its very hard to film because of the course.

[@Andy_ATB]

At least the Gravel Worlds got some live coverage; the XC Marathon got nothing. A few minutes of highlights was all we got to see.

[@PJC_001]

Cancellara owns the Tudor team, so his ambassadorship is kinda a given. It's also more of a developing squad with ambitions to compete at the top level one day.

[@MrBusunglueck]

13:15 im sorry, but youre kinda wrong about Tudor. They are quite prominent in Europe.

[@robertlight2370]

I have a mid compact, so my biggest gear is 52-11. The only time I've ever spun it out, and could have needed more, was downhill through the Legacy Way Tunnel in this years Tour de Brisbane. 115rpm and 70km/h for a couple of minutes was a pain in the backside. But that's the only time.

[@lemonshire1]

Happy to see Patrick Lino being mentioned on the show, I love his content!

[@neilmckenna236]

Great show guys 👌

[@ryanfox1904]

Specialized gloves have worked for me for. Low profile and they hold up well. Body Geometry Grail Short Finger Gloves

[@jayeoliver9259]

Gloves for the win

[@alex9046]

5:57 been riding 32mm with TPU tubes and OMG you dont wanna stop riding

[@robertwhyte3435]

When Diamondback did the Podium, a great bike btw, they started with the wheels then designed the frame around that configuration. A few years ago I went to the Canyon store in Carlsbad and told them I'd be interested in the Aeroad if I they would make it a bit more comfortable, shorter and higher, just barely, and room for bigger tires. They looked at me like, "Who do you think you are?" Two years later they built the bike I asked for and I bought it.

[@doindumbstuff4119]

So you asked them to make an aeroad into an Endurace and you’re surprised they raised an eyebrow?

[@matkrek]

I have the podium, super interesting to know!

[@robertwhyte3435]

@@doindumbstuff4119 Imagine how surprised I was when they updated the Aeroad doing exactly what I said I wanted.

[@m.ncycles]

Chris wearing his PATTERSON PASS T-SHIRT YAY Norcal represent

[@junksmiles]

Hey it's 2023, no more kink shaming! I personally love the look of it but agree. It would be perfect if it had 32 clearance.

[@marcmilne9228]

If you see how the Cape Epic is covered, they could take a few pages from that book.

[@Andy_ATB]

Yeah, but I think the Cape Epic has more money to enable the live coverage.

[@itsP0rky]

Can confirm specialized does focus group testing.

[@dan0368]

You guys were cracking me up during the who do you call segment! And Chris on having unuseable chainrings, haha. Also, got a youtube premium 3 month trial back in summer. It expired recently and I tried going back to ads....I paid for a year up front later that day. I watch more youtube than any other streaming service so its well worth the money.

[@wenjtu]

Love the Patterson Pass RR shirt! One of the hardest and hottest race I’ve done. 😅

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

agreed

[@koreystephens]

Audio top notch. Good work guys.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

😮‍💨

[@ili4707]

My uni apparently also do focus groups/Human-Factors research for cycling/cycling related brands. I know that they did a cycling-chamois project for VAUDE, which would also include asking people what they want from a chamois. I think Simplon also did something, though I'm not sure

[@happydays8171]

When Trek, Lance, and Steve Hed, were designing the Equinox tri-bike, they wanted to know if the geometry was right for tall riders. A mechanic at my LBS, 6' 4", did triathlons, tested it for them, I bought that bike and can say it can go fast in a straight line. Think that's the kind of ficus group you're looking for.

[@ryanbierl8035]

Have a training wheel setup with disc brakes. Can get shims to alight rotors on multiple wheel sets. Also allows for pit wheels.

[@TheMoodyedge]

"Badly Made Carbon, Bicycle Made Crap" - Hambini

[@jeffreypeters1902]

At Unbound a couple years ago, the Trek team had bladder pockets sewn into their skinsuits. I have a pic of Keil Reinjen's up close. Pretty slick setup.

[@DavidK140]

Always watch your show on YT - making the leap to premium . Good to know it’s the best way to help you guys. Good chat boys ✅

[@billybrentz]

photo of Jesse riding the Airhub - NO SOCKS !! Must be a Sydney thing !

[@wendysuperfan1014]

Thanks Chris and Jesse!

[@curtvaughan2836]

Thanks!

[@curtvaughan2836]

The "Who do you call?" segment at the end - that was certainly worth $2. Memories ...

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

♥️

[@roberthealey6820]

The audio has worked! Yippee!! 🤣🤣🤣

[@zippy7]

Glad the audio got sorted out. Keep up the good work.

[@0HereForAGoodTime0]

Look up the riding times... subtract Keegan's crash time...he finished the race in less time

[@gregmorrison7320]

Yeah but paid for poor tire choice, taking speed over traction.

[@0HereForAGoodTime0]

@@gregmorrison7320 slicks was a weird choice, but given that last year's route was more suited for slicks, maybe it was a decision based on bad Intel. Who knows. I just found the numbers interesting. There's always next year.

[@fnm441]

So what is the opinion on the Wilier Triestina Filante SLR? A lightweight aero bike some 3 years ahead of the pack and still relevant today. Don't see many around though as it is in superbike territory with a superbike price!

[@andyking8464]

Gloves...bought a pair of Supacaz on special from Pushys -

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Sounds great!

[@stuartmisfeldt3068]

Chainrings: when the smallest cogs dropped from 14 in the 60’s to 13 in the ‘80’s, the 52or 53 /42 was standard. When 12 in the’90’s then 11 in the 2000’s the compact 50/34 equaled the top gear and allowed for better climbing. Now with a 10 the average rider can use a 48 or 44 sub compact, have an even better low gear. Remember that corn cob 5 speed freewheels have moved to 11-34 cassettes with 12 gears. All great for us older punters!

[@glennoc8585]

"its 2024" video from the future 😂. Seriously though the clearance should be wider at that price. Always liked BMC framesets they seem to be quality. That old Mac is going to boot up randomly and I'm going to run for the door

[@jamesjordan3382]

One of the first things I did when I got my new bike (first Disc) in Jan was to by a set of training wheels. Keep the good carbon for racing with slick tires and alloy (ok DT SWISS so good alloy) with harder commutating tires.

[@glacialpace5655]

I have been in a focus group for specialized mountain bikes. It was during crankworx in Rotorua, I think payment was just in product. Not specific to a single bike but questions about what features mattered to us.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

👍🏽

[@christiandm4385]

Love the pod! Y’all should include a link in the description to the kits 🤙🏼

[@ryanmikesell4253]

Cream of the Crop and not one mention of Macho Man Randy Savage. Because the cream always rises to the top

[@tonyhogan1016]

You need to see the race coverage from the Cape Epic from Sourh Africa. They are the best at live MTB/Dirt TV.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Yeh that’s true, it’s very well done

[@cjohnson913]

Gloves: Started riding road bikes after years of MTB. I wear the Troy Lee Designs Ace 2.0 gloves for EVERYTHING. They are light, comfy, no Velcro closure, touch sensetive thumb and index finger tips, and they just last! I've never had any issues with not being able to feel the shifters or anything like that due to the full fingers. Definitely give them a try.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks for sharing

[@swites]

I'm a lightweight climber. I've had compacts since my first road bike in 2010. Perfect for me not being a powerful guy and lots of steep climbs in the area. Only had an issue a few times in races on slight downhills with a big tailwinds. Riders/mates made fun of me in a light-hearted way all the time back in the day for having a compact. Not because it was a "disadvantage", but because "hard men" rode 53-39's lol

[@thecyclinggreek274]

I have rear box rim training wheels and front older aero wheels and separate race wheels. Of course, I'm old.

[@justsomedude7556]

I have been using the Giro Hoxton for probably 10 years, they stopped making them except for the long fingers, and when I found out they stopped making them, I bought 3 more pair, and still have those 3 extra pair unused as these things last a long time. Merino tops, leather palms, no padding, and finger pulls on the top. I love them. I have longer finger versions for winter, but know a woman that said she could make short fingers out of them longer finger versions if needed in an hour. So far not need to go that way. They need to bring these gloves back.

[@robbchastain3036]

Twenty years ago I was in my 40s when late one Saturday night I had to call family and ask that they come and get me at a fuel station about 40 miles from home, just one of those things and I didn't see the problem with being helped after, sure, I fell short of my goal after a long week of work and was happily getting in a big ride that way. And all in all it was an unpleasant pick-up. And these days I would say, in general, that family needs to realize that cycling for us is largely a pursuit of health and fitness to meet the demands of life, an enjoyable pursuit, yet a challenge and hard work and such And in retrospect, I should've said something like that, but our society often has a disdain for exercise and personal inconvenience and that was the case that night. So maybe now I'd suggest that riders chat with their partners and request that they have their backs in case of a ride home or whatever. Not really a crime to get out there and ride your bike and you shouldn't have to feel guilty about needing help.

[@CristobalMeseguer]

i just fucking love this show

[@benjamintreble3805]

Big fan of the attaquer gloves.Summer and winter - both seemed to last well with regular washing machine cycles.

[@jamiesharp3421]

Re gloves, I have tried many many pairs. The AeroCoach AttackSpeed are by far the best I have used and they're aero :)

[@AlexPeka]

Interested to hear what Chris thinks about Puck Moonen's new pinerello? Big fan

[@Gabrielle4870]

Chainring: Sram app tells you what chainring and sprocket you're on. Guess what, with the small chainrings and 12 speed, I'm generally in the middle of the cassette.

[@luketoms6110]

Train heavy, race lite

[@gcanzano36]

Would love to hear what you guys think of the Scott Foil. Seems to be somewhat catching on and potentially decent for the value.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Looks like a fast bike.

[@gcanzano36]

That’s a decent response but what if, and bear with me, you were to meticulously break down the many aspects of this bike. Leading me directly to a conclusion regarding exactly how fast I’d be on it and whether I should buy it for crits next season. Maybe discuss it with another cyclist.. say…. Jesse Coyle? Spit balling here

[@williamsham0]

I'd personally have loved to have seen a static pic of the BMC in a corner of your video while you're talking about the details of the frame!

[@cjohnson913]

Gearing: when I built my Allez with Ultegra 6800 I used a 53/39 and 11-32 with a long cage derailleur. I could climb, but I could also HAMNER descents! I've got it on a first gen venge now and there are descents that I can spin it out. Also, using bigger cogs in the flats/rollers, is slightly more efficient, (marginal gains?) So there's that too. I really like having the range. About to build a 1x gravel bike with grx 12spd, 42 x 10-51

[@colekrueger8841]

Listened to this episode on the drive from work and I’ve been triggered so hard I’ve had to pull up to make this comment because I couldn’t wait to get home. The absolute INSANITY of thinking a bleeding edge top of the line race bike should have clearance for 32s has shaken me to my core. Frankly if you need 32s you’re too fat, too slow, or too frail for what this bike is designed for. Get a gravel bike. How can you fault BMC for not designing this bike to be comfortable for the 90kg dentist riding his aero bike at 20kph and also shit on them for not being in the WT? Anyway love the show guys keep up the great banter. 😅

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Haha!! Love the passion! Not going to try and persuade you otherwise, but as a 30” tyre width convert still racing my bike … I’d never go back.

[@Cyclingchoice]

Yes23, jersey noted :)

[@digitalenglish3620]

I know the frustration of having a mechanical and thinking about calling the missus, however after a few minutes of reflecting on all the aggro I'll get, I just took off my cleats and walked the 5 miles home. Peace over war every time boys, peace over war.

[@channul4887]

Yep, a typical WASM confirmed.

[@kidsafe]

Tons of third-party AXS batteries exist and I’m sure SRAM will keep manufacturing the compatible batteries for a long, long time. They’ll probably even sell updated batteries as the tech improves. Also SRAM added 11-speed backward compatibility to its AXS shifters.

[@sanj-m]

Did anyone hear the announcer call Keegan "the young pretender" during his sprint against Valverde? Hella harsh.

[@PeakTorque]

28mm max - absolute joke. 14.5k USD - where does this come from? Frame cost from their china supplier is about 350usd. Even if the frame retail was a snip at 4k, where does 10k of parts come from? Ridiculous.

[@paulw677]

Love your work PT. My jaw has just dropped to the floor - US$350 cost for the frame and selling for US$4k that's an outrageous margin. And then US$10k on top for the rest. We are being screwed. WHen will this implode?

[@macht4turbo]

I run a sub compact 48/32 with 11/34 cassette, but i also do bikepacking and i can't imagine doing that with a standard or even 52/36. For that matter i also run 32mm tires and wouldn't go any narrower any more.

[@jeffreyanthony7348]

Hey, how can I get those kits that you guys got hanging up in the background.

[@opherjames]

Yep, the "training bike" is steel, hub dynamo (for permanent lights vs the air hub), winterproof (and road salt rusted for extra drivetrain inefficiency), full fenders and rack and bags. The race bike has to be worth at least 100W.

[@gutshotbob9670]

I thought you were about to chat about tyres, then you didn't. Is love to hear about gp5000 vs p zero and what did you guys ride in the wet. Everyone I know just doesn't ride in the wet, but I still ride to work. Great show guys, I listen to the pod cast, I come to KZbin to comment.

[@livingwithfshd]

Whats the website to the kits im keen but I cannot find it

[@claytonwells8614]

Mate if your are to afraid to ring your wife it's time to get a new one😂

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

Never considered AXS and Di2 versions going obsolete! As long as we get 10-12 years out of a groupset… I think that’s fair? That way you’re either upgrading your bike or your groupset. Am I wrong in this thinking?

[@terbennett]

I have ran out of gears in sprints with a 50/34 with 11/28 in a few crits. You max out at around 34-35 mph. Getting dropped sucks. I went back to a 53/39.

[@Sagwagon]

I took a swift survey once, does that count?

[@maximilienschneider5879]

Planned obsolescence is already there. I have a colnago v2r from 2018. Specific Seat clamp for this frame is broken. It’s impossible to find it on internet. And colnago replied to me : they are not doing it anymore.

[@gregmorrison7320]

Wow that sucks!

[@BS-jb9wv]

Where is the link for the jersey's?

[@alexcavill1986]

Rule 28 gloves. I use them for changang and 200 mile solo days.

[@DontGetDroppedCycling]

Big RINGS

[@AlexPeka]

I dont need to watch ,I like in the first 5 seconds

[@samgooding-matthews3175]

Talking of hydration packs This summer in the uk I was driving home from work and there was a guy on a probably not cheap TT bike aero helmet and areo socks with the skin suit and a camel back with so many dangling straps it was all flumpy 🤨 be aero or don’t be was so random

[@virgylferns]

Seriously keegan killed it.

[@roelofdutoit3962]

With regards to obsolescence.. I have a set of 3T disc wheels that I rather like. Only about 4 years old.Bombproof for CX gravel type riding. Unfortunately I lost an endcap in transport and wouldn't you know it. 3T don't have spare anything for these wheels and don't plan on providing any support. Not great and something to consider when buying your next wheel set

[@laingy2009]

Castelii Rosso corsa gloves have always lasted a long time

[@Nyarlathoth]

After one too many flats while commuting, I went for the Schwalbe Durano Plus. They may be close to 1 kg a pair, but I like the gummy feeling and I don't feel (nor measure) any slower on the flats. How many km/h those 20 watts even give you?

[@AlexPeka]

Been riding skin suits for training since cycling seriously! Aero socks come out for race day 😂 I do have a vented helmet for training for hewt dissipation

[@fleurdelispens]

1) 7:40 you can't twist it or spin it, but can you bop it? 2) I run 32s cause I ride a lot on not so great roads. More comfort please

[@timtaylor9590]

i almost wore my hydro pack for storage, but nah my legs can handle some cold

[@lincolnlu9869]

Clement sst. 700x32. They're slower than my 700x45 cinturato H. So my nominee for slowest road tire

[@terrywalker7127]

Yep tire clearance and for that amount of money give it a decent looking paint scheme. Did they use the I don't give a damn company for the paint color? Do they still have intermittent issues with the bottom bracket roundness and finish?

[@markhebden1052]

Race wheels also offer cost and reliability improvements. Honestly if my new bike was available with rim brakes I would have been happier.

[@georgehagstrom4022]

I think there will be lots of unfortunate obselescence with bike frames becoming less standardized. Already had to ditch an old TT bike when the seatpost broke (waited years checking ebay trying to find a replacement)

[@brettdyson3286]

I have had an obsolete issue. Had an ultegra di2 disk brake lever get broken. Could not get one new I'm Australia. Was some second hand options.

[@rayF4rio]

My new favorite gloves: Castelli - Rosso Corsa Pro V or the Competizione 2. Minimal padding.

[@nathankerchensky2160]

The new Teammachine looks gorgeous, but something about the head tube being twice as thick as the headset throws me off a little. I own a Time Machine Road01 TWO right now and would be interested in this as an upgrade. I think BMC always hit the mark with their colorways.