The Next Phase of Star Citizens Right Model is Here | Is It Actually Better Players?

[@SpaceTomato]

BTW this is just my interpretation, I realize we need some clarity on some points lol. But just to be super incredibly clear. Master Modes are (kinda) dead, because the overall mode switch itself is something they wanted to do away with, so technically the operator mode is taking it's place, but it still removes friction, which was the master mode. Other parts are still hanging around, though, like the shield restriction. We'll just see what happens with fast (conventional) flight. Thanks for watching, hope this was clear!

[@stratcat3216]

I like the changes and if it were a real sim, power to QT drives might necessitate giving all the power to the drive thus removing the ability to power up shields/weapons. Perhaps ballistics should still be available however ;) Cheers

[@Avenger__One]

Great video brother

[@RatikusuCh]

I hope that we learn sooner rather to some degree of the implications and further development of this implementation of the flight model. Great video, as always, Tomato!

[@JohnBeauchemin]

@spacetomato you shouldn't put much weight behind your theory on the development of MasterModes. The playerbase sees a small fraction of the development that goes on, and much of what we see is marketing sanitized. If they shifted direction, it's probably for a number of reasons, but I'm betting that not having the foresight to see that the system hadn't been tested against other future planned systems, or lack of feedback and testing, or any other similar argument, is not one of them. There are likely many branches of this game running in their development stream where they are developing and testing these features internally, and if a feature doesn't make it to the release branch, then there is at least one if not several good reason for that outcome.

[@twentyeighthunnid]

@@JohnBeauchemin reasons being the constant whimsical flipflops of an incompetant manchild who put his meritless wife as head of marketting. he pulling out more than 300grands per year out this bie. sandy probz just as much. tweakers be tweaking (on a yacht but still)

[@AnymMusic]

So what are they gonna do with ships that are defined by their speed? A ship like the khartu-Al is a glass cannon and NEEDS high speeds to out-manoeuvre an enemy, or get in and out quickly as a scouting type ship. The way it sounds now, is that they'll effectively just make everything feel same-y and boring as all hell

[@Dytoractor]

No Mans Sky's Ships feel same-y because they are. The cool thing about SC is that ships have always flown differently from each other. Even before Master Modes. This month it does look like CIG wants to slow everything down so that one day in the future you can build a part that makes your ship fly like it did 2 years ago. I don't care as long as the game "functions" and is "fun" enough.

[@CitizenScott]

They're gonna make them fast? Never said they were making all ships the same speed or flight profile or anything. No clue where you got that from.

[@Galacticat42]

Honestly, it wouldn't be so bad if they were *just* going full circle, but they've tried master modes twice before and it never worked, so they're not just going full circle, but going in constant circles and going absolutely nowhere because of it. They need to stop trying to restrict ship speed and just let people learn to not slam into the ground.

[@Herodocles]

This ^ 1000% this

[@tobytoxd]

The first idea of CR is to have WW2-plane-like dogfights like in Star Wars and Wing Commander. Besides this, there is the space simulation - and there will be constant and ongoing fine tuning and testing of various systems until everyone is (not) happy :D In my opinion, to build everything around the WW2 dogfight experience, is a good basis.

[@twentyeighthunnid]

@@tobytoxd It is completely antithetical to the original kickstarter pitch and hence a knife to the back of early backers.

[@tobytoxd]

@@twentyeighthunnid What? This is in every word from Roberts since 2011 when he did talk about the game and his vision for it. Have you ever played Wing Commander or a Star Wars dogfight? This was ALWAYS the basis of the PvE encounter in space flight. It's also in the early dev vlogs 2012-2014. Watching this project regularly since the first day. So don't tell me this first vision was replaced at any point in time. It was not.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

The main reason to restrict speeds isn't so we don't slam into the ground it's to reduce jousting in dogfights. They didn't like that high speeds made it difficult for novice pilots to stay close and actually engage in fights. Pilots just zoom past each other over and over. So they're trying to find a balance where combat is slower and travel is faster.

[@_Kaurus]

Crashing because of going to fast is a consequence of bad flying, not a reason to slow people down.

[@MatthewPoeana]

From my understanding, they intend to artificially introduce a learning curve with crafting. The more difficult to operate flight speeds being made available as you upgrade your ship and progress through the game. The problem is that the way they presented it suggests there’s an 800 m/s SCM delta between a stock ship and fully upgraded ship (I.e stock being 200-300 scm, fully upgraded being 1000-1100 m/s scm.) Starting at 400-600 and then hitting 1000-1100 would be far more acceptable.

[@CitizenScott]

The vast majority of players couldn't control their speeds after literally years. That absolutely is a reason to slow people down.

[@troyhavok8605]

@@MatthewPoeana That sounds like every new ship is going to be a sitting duck for anyone who has already done the crafting grind. Sounds very antifun

[@nuanil]

@@MatthewPoeana Which is asinine...

[@nuanil]

@@CitizenScott Wrong, it's a reason to tell them this isn't the game for them, because it's not that they COULDN'T, it's that they REFUSED to.

[@Victini0510]

They are massively over complicating these systems. Why are we not using FTL-style power balancing? We literally have the big power blocks already. Imagine your power plant produces 5 power blocks. Shields cost 3, guns cost 2, qt drive cost 5 for example. If you want to spool qt you have to de-power the shields and guns. There's no master mode bullshit required and it makes way more sense.

[@Aethid]

I am not really sure how that would change anything. Switching into NAV right now brings your QD up into a kind of idle state (which is what speeds you up - you are in a minor QD travel) and drops the shields and weapons. That is basically exactly what you are asking for but with a very slightly different UI. It would still play the same.

[@BaneSIlvermoon]

To the point already made above, that is basically what happens currently with master modes, except you have a single button that swaps the power on more than one of the devices simultaneously. My ship produces 28 power, the shield uses 4 and you can add a 5th. The quantum drive requires like 7. Life support uses 2 and can add a third. Engines can use from 1 to like 9 or 10. When you switch between nav mode and operator mode, it even saves the power settings I'm using in each and goes right back to them when I switch back. The only difference I'd have in what you're suggesting is i could severely cut my engine power and bring the shield back up, but I would have to press a lot more buttons to get the same effect I have now. Also, they would lose the ability to have fine control over a particular ships speed capabilities. Personally, I don't get the hate for master modes. I think they just needed additional ship to ship fine tuning. But I'm interested to see what they're changing it to.

[@rayk7307]

​@@Aethidit would be a massive change. You would be able to be in "nav" while squeezing some power to guns.

[@AnymMusic]

CIG overcomplicating systems and trying to reinvent the wheel? Nahhhhh

[@thedeadliest4380]

@@Aethid nah, switching between modes is buggy as fuck. we could legit have no modes and just swap power between settings we want, we have hotkeys to change power settings, if you need to be able to hold B for it to make sense to you, thats a fuckin you problem, not us.

[@AbbreviatedReviews]

I've never really cared what they do with the flight model, but I'd really like to see it land somewhere. My hope has always been that they stop trying to please everyone and just focus on having it set in stone.

[@CaptainPoldork69]

Hope they bring back the smooth, not shaky, no high gear-low gear shifting clunking back and forth, that actually flies like a "flight sim/fighter jet" flight model. MM flies like a box

[@ShadowOfMachines]

I liked to go zooming around in the Merlin, cranking the speed limiter to max and zipping around stations or cities. It's going to be sad if I can't do that anymore. I liked my speedy little ship. Might not pick one up again next patch if I can't do that anymore.

[@Zeoran]

One of the things that I've been saying since they first introduced MM's is that shields should NOT just drop to zero, but when you "lose shields", you simply lose the ability to regen the shields but the faces with power retain that power, giving you a small buffer.

[@StarshipCaptainNemo]

eyactly that is how X-WING did it in 1995

[@DigiBentoBox]

Nah the shields dropping makes it perfect as a consequence for trying to run away from a fight. If you run, you are relying on speed and distance, and your pursuer actually has a small chance to still stop you. Before, if you had shields and then QT away, your hunter would never have the chance to take you out prior to you escaping unless they had a quantum snare.

[@FlameSoulis]

@@DigiBentoBox That makes sense... for combat ships. For industrials, this makes NO sense! Most industrials focus on shields and aren't very fast or powerful. At that point, I might as well throw my hands up in the air, kick out the emergency door, and remove my helmet as I eat vacuum, because that's basically the problem: It's so one sided at that point, there is no counter game. If a combat ship is as good as you say, then let the ships keep their shields, because it shouldn't matter. If someone is running away, a good pilot can evade and a even better one can widdle down whatever shields remain (again, they're LOCKED IN COMBAT so chances are the receiving end HAS LITTLE SHIELD TO BEGIN WITH).

[@Zeoran]

@@DigiBentoBox Congratulations, you just made it clear how you're part of the problem. You're thinking ONLY for combat. The problem with MM's was that they affected EVERYONE, not just those engaging/disengaging in combat. My reasoning for keeping the shield faces was so that ships, like cargo ships, who DON'T WANT TO FIGHT, have an actual chance to get away from the fight. Simply being faster in NAV mode was NOT good enough. By the time you noticed you were in a fight, they had already launched half a dozen missiles at you and were throwing a full laser/ballistic salvo at you. In the time it takes your ship to run up to a speed where you can outrun them, you're dead. By the time it takes you to find a QT point, spin up the drive & jump: you're dead. Maybe once we can quantum-boost, it would change all that, since you could just QT boost in ANY direction and disengage the fight. But we're nowhere near getting QT boost yet, so that couldn't be the solution.

[@Denizen-X]

Shields should just be on until you turn them off. You need shields for FTL space flight. Being defenseless when you navigate is brain dead.

[@KaizikuM]

Universally, I think the only real problem is people hate how slow speeds are. They don't need to be previous speeds, but SCM should not be measly 200, push it to 500 range. It's been stated very clearly that's what people hated, and now they're doubling down. It sucks to see.

[@kps393]

100%

[@avon_c6199]

I've tested this extensively back when MundaneModes was still in PTU Arena Commander, and I also found that 400-500 in SCM would be the ideal speed threshold, which to me fast enough that it didn't make me feel like I was flying somewhere at a snails pace, but not too fast either that it made "go-fast" mode irrelevant.

[@Nonpain]

always fought with 400-700ms before MM depending on the ship ,200 is just to slow to make any meaningful maneuver beside pip-wiggling.

[@CitizenScott]

People cant control themselves at those speeds. Even 400-500m/s. Period.

[@LordBeef]

I’m unsure, and honestly concerned, about replacing flight speeds between 300-1000m/s with quantum boost. I think the justification of making it easier to stop on a dime when approaching a station is rather weak, and implies an approach of making flight less interesting. I don’t believe that speed equals fun, but I do believe that 6 degrees of freedom flight is a core part of the Star Citizen promise and vision, and I’m concerned about that being limited to combat. I’ve said this elsewhere, but deciding when to push the "stop immediately" button is inherently and mathematically less fun than more organic flight, as it reduces the decision space. In organic flight, the problem of stopping in time has three axes of choice; it’s a three-dimensional decision space. (Retro thrust start time) * (Retro thrust duration) * (Retro thrust strength). You could even factor in orientation, accounting for a turn and burn, but I’ll leave that within retro thrust strength. One could plot the above factors of stopping into a 3-dimensional chart, representing the decision space. The solution space would be a region of that chart that results in velocity being 0 before hitting the station. That’s a lot of different, interesting solutions for a very simple problem. With quantum boost, however, it’s a one-dimensional decision. When do I push the button to stop? You can only plot that on a number line, and it’s a less interesting experience. I honestly wish that SC leadership would play Outer Wilds, as the simple flight model in that game is ludicrously fun (and intuitive) for navigation. Obviously OW doesn’t have combat, which is why I’m focusing on navigation here. I honestly think that Coupled mode‘s near complete lack of momentum really hampers the joy of navigational flight.

[@Arcwolfman]

That's too complicated for casuals. Casual flight brain press gas pedal but don't know how press brake and go kaboom.

[@LordBeef]

@ I mean…get good? Or even just…a little bit better? Like, just think about decelerating a little bit, casuals can do that. I am a casual. Car driving games don’t make their cars stop immediately; the space fight game doesn’t need to do that either.

[@Arcwolfman]

@@LordBeef lol I know I'm not like that I was joking about people who don't know how to pilot. I agree with you, the 6DF shouldn't be limited.

[@LordBeef]

@@Arcwolfman Lol gotcha. Text based communication can be hard, lol

[@amineabdz]

@@LordBeef they are going unfortunatly the ubisoft route with this, the demographic's median age for Star Citizen is probably in the Low 30s minimum, people in this age are generally mature and would appreciate a complex system that is rewarding to learn. catering to every single kid out there that can't press the space break after the first couple of crashes will ruin the experience for everyone. and let's be honest, it's not the kids that are buying $300+ JPEGs...

[@DanyF02]

Lets, be honest. They sat around a table and said "Okay, all players own all the ships they want with a better insurance than what they could get in game, what do we do?" - "Oh I know, let's say there's tiers of ships and that all ships bought until now are trash tier and that LTI only gives you back a trash tier ship. They'll just have to obtain actually good ships in game later, and also get new insurances in game to cover those better ships."

[@alexheijer]

I like this change back. I just want to be able to accelerate past SCM speeds without changing modes. Main reason I liked playing star citizen was the sense of speed. I just liked low flying at 1,200. That was fun. 300km just doesn’t feel exciting

[@JSmith73]

Good. The ~30s to 1 minute (didn't stopwatch it, but it was significant) deceleration of a Reclaimer at full blast on its way to a salvage was cut to an INSTANT by changing the master modes, completely KILLED the immersion for me. I absolutely hated it, and it contributed to this Concierge not wanting to play anymore.

[@latjolajban81]

You will still stop in an instant. Because travel mode with will be quantum boost. And when you stop in quantum boost it's instant...

[@JSmith73]

@@latjolajban81 Oh for crying out loud.... Thanks for squashing my hopes. 😅

[@latjolajban81]

@@JSmith73 lol. Yeah it sucks. They really are afraid of noobs making mistakes, so they are putting in failsafes everywhere. All in the name of "accessibility" I guess.

[@JSmith73]

@@latjolajban81 that absolutely sucks indeed. Look at the stellar early success of PoE2 - people are begging GGG not to dial down the difficulty, as we just love needing to actually *learn* things. It's back to DCS World in the sim space for me until further notice. It didn't help that the 4.0 EPTU (yup I'm a whale of old) ran as if my 4090 was downgraded back to my 3070, absolutely atrocious performance. I know early days and all, but I've had enough.

[@mike_d_melb_music_fan5229]

It's frustrating everything changes so much. I got back into 3.24.3 for the first time since 3.24 , and the keys had changed so much I was lost.

[@samrye8342]

The answer is power. Full power to engines= fast. Full to sheild =turtle. That and everything in-between+ details.

[@mtyEyes]

Current SCM speeds are too slow for planet explorations

[@SandmanJr90]

Vastly too slow

[@amineabdz]

for any ship activity really, including combat... and the worst of it all, racing...

[@CitizenScott]

Hence the QT mode...

[@amineabdz]

@@CitizenScott Yes, I too enjoy to engage a plot device hyperdrive because my 900 years in the future spaceship can't go above 250m/s

[@CitizenScott]

@ Poor guy.

[@VFrozzen]

this is the problem with star citizen and leads to believe that they are doing it on purpose at this point just to "milk" the development phase and people are getting tired of it. having to remake mechanics every year makes no sense in a development point of view, leave that for beta testing, we are in an alpha of the alpha, we were fine with the normal flight mechanic we had a few years backs, were some ships stronger than other? yeah but its nowhere near a finished game, it was meant so we could fly around and test OTHER stuff not polish a game mechanic in a 2% progress product... which could be fixed by tweaking small stuff like ship speed, rate of fire, ammo capacity etc (meaning its only changing a few numbers here and there not 6 months of work from half your company). if they keep doing this with every single thing we already have (which defeats the whole purpose of testing it in the first place) people are gonna be right, we will never see a finished product, which again, is what leads to believe that they are doing it on purpose and finishing the game was never their goal but to have a steady income for whatever they have left in this life.

[@twentyeighthunnid]

tweakers be tweaking

[@rflagg88]

If they slow down the ships to those speeds we will be flying slower than all modern military aircraft. That won't be fun.

[@jedadiahtucker2132]

they def need to raise the base speed of 300 m/s is only 671Mph a fighter should be doing twice that even in atmo, anything that thinks its a interceptor should be going more like 3 times that. the F-14 a aircraft from 1974 could do 1,500 ish mph or around 690 m/s

[@SuperlunarNim]

"All normal flight is being limited to around current SCM speeds" So they're not really fixing anything then and it's still just going to be a numbers/DPS race. I'm still out.

[@Z3RO4351]

Loving the infographics used to support the explanation of how master modes works. You know thats my jam.

[@SpaceTomato]

Thanks, mate! Glad to see folks apprecaite that :)

[@daveg1701]

Agree the MM vs op mode graphic and the op modes scrolling graphics are great!

[@Tael71]

I still think its a step backwards. We should be able to have shields up, but power diverted from weapons for higher speed flight. We still have to drop defenses to run away while our attackers can keep chasing us and shooting us. Also changes to lower speed and quantum boost is going to break several of the in game missions now, moving quantum sensitive cargo...

[@KazNDS]

i will never understand how master modes was the solution to any of the issues with the previous flight mode

[@nuanil]

Because it never was, and you have to both hold some extreme logical fallacies to be true, and have a complete and total lack of understanding about 6DOF combat to believe it.

[@Farrister]

Can we pause for just a moment to appreciate the incredible production quality of this video? The research, the graphics, the voiceover - just fantastic

[@wickedwookie]

Agreed! Great job Space Tomato! It's so purdy lol.

[@yonatanyoffe6831]

Absolutely, really happy with the quality. I also watch your videos too and think that both you and tomato put in so much thought and effort into these video's about a game that we would love to succeed. It really shows how talented both of you are and thoughtful!👍

[@SpaceTomato]

You're one to talk!

[@skatman3278]

The biggest issue with mastermodes is the arbitrarily low max speed. It's awful. Sadly that bit is remaining, so it basically changes nothing.

[@johnarrowsmith5847]

Agreed - I hate it. Just not fun to fly in the game anymore. When the game is 70% about flying...

[@artuno1207]

I hope we never go back to the days of dog fights being two people whizzing past each other at 800 m/s. Fuck that shit.

[@richardhill5869]

I've barely played the game since they introduced this stupid mechanic.

[@humpfree999]

@@skatman3278 yup. I hate it too. I very rarely see anyone that has put a modicum of effort into learning the system say they enjoy it.

[@humpfree999]

​@@artuno1207that only happened if you put no effort into learning the system, or the person you were fighting put no effort in. There are plenty of examples of people having excellent fights in the old system and it just took a bit of learning and self control.

[@ro-mon_gerrs_u-tube1944]

It seems the addition of guns open is to allow pirates to chase down fleeing ships ... to allow Zoom & boom tactics.

[@tomificated]

There is one small misunderstanding with what the devs said. Nav speeds will be accessible through power management* and crafting. The default power management* has our speed cieling at the SCM speeds of today. But putting more pips into thrusters increases the top speed to a point. Then crafting improves that ceiling

[@Gary_The_Metro]

That just sounds like we're going to get back to the previous problem of ships flying at 1000+ m/s doing jousting matches... But it'll be more annoying because now if you don't also min-max speed you'll still be slower than them. Whereas previously you could to a reasonable degree keep up with them at least a little bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having somewhat higher speeds. But up to 1000+ m/s .. no thanks. People pretending master modes was worse than the previous godawful flight model are just coping that they can't abuse light fighter meta as much anymore and had to actually use a modicum of skill to win fights.

[@NicoLuzquinos]

@@Gary_The_Metro ya but if they are going at that speed, then they wouldnt be able to power shiels or weapons, aka theyd die quickly

[@mayoluck]

Yea bc crafting is gonna fix everything.... not.

[@explorer47422]

@@Gary_The_Metro They've already said your ship will not be able to power all systems to 100%, so to get to that speed will likely require power from other systems, will all be a compromise

[@Gary_The_Metro]

@@explorer47422 Ballistics don't require (significant) power. And if you just have 1 point worth of power into shield that's generally enough since at that speed you will barely have any time to be fired upon, let alone be hit. So if you simply max out speed and just put minimal power into weapons and shields. Which is exactly what people did back then as well except it was maximum power into weapons instead...

[@KD-_-]

Missile mode should be removed too. You're telling me modern jets can use missiles and guns together but the Arrow can't?

[@BaneSIlvermoon]

Missile mode is the one part of this that does bother me. I have a flight stick that makes it a non-issue, but it's still a weird thing to have to disable the guns to arm missiles.

[@bigfoot9049]

Master modes is a dumbing down of mechanics to suit the casuals. Anyone that had trouble with the previous flight model simply needed to learn how to use the speed limiter or learn how to dogfight to avoid jousting, basically it's a skill issue. I haven't played much since mm came out and I likely won't be playing much anymore at all if the flight mode stays a dps battle.

[@skatman3278]

@@bigfoot9049 yup. Absolutely this. Anyone complaining about jousting simply hasn't put enough effort in to learning.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

True but they feel the skill ceiling is too high for the masses. If this game wants to be successful it can't be too niche. If casuals get frustrated with the flight model (which affects nearaly every game loop in the game) and give up on the game because of it they're doomed long term.

[@skatman3278]

@Spike.SpiegeI I actually think they feel the skill floor is too high, I.e. It's too difficult to become competent at. I have *some* sympathy for that as it is difficult to "get good", but the game doesn't help it by giving absolutely zero information or training at the start. It could implement a tutorial system that helps you learn how to actually get the best out of the game. I also feel a lot of people these days are fed up with boring games that are too easy to master. I know I am and so are a lot of my org. Games that are too easy to master have a very short shelf-life.

[@Toutvids]

@@Spike.SpiegeI I agree. What made Freelancer such a beloved game to this day is ease of use. It did not have a bunch of complicated controls just to fly your ship. Get in and set your speed. Which, coincidentally, was pretty slow but allowed for good maneuverability. There were upgrades to increase power, etc. but those didn't make a huge changes and cause balance issues.

[@russellburns205]

@@Toutvids freelancer is a bad example of that. PvP in that game boiled down to thruster jousting using uncoupled mode.

[@CruentusV]

"what's done is seems to be done" - until it costs CIG money. THAT seems to be done more often than not these days. we gave our support when they needed it most, went along as they continued to ignore our requests for "finished" ships (or at least equally "finished" ships), watched as they changed a promising and unique game experience with a truly fun flight model into a frustrating rehash of EVE online trying to be everything for everyone, and now they expect us to be appreciative when they reverse minor parts of a game model that broke not only promises chris made more than a decade ago but the physics of the game in order to make it more "accessible" for a broader audience? nope, the game's NOT improving. removing a game's uniqueness trying to make it everything for everyone, turns it into nothing for no one...

[@gryphon3241]

The worst part about the mastermodes change for me was the speed limit. Hard stop, thats what it is. And here they're saying its gonna stay that low? I can understand wanting to lower combat speeds for balancing purposes and whatnot, but i feel like just outright slashing top speed to a quarter or less of what it was wasn't the answer. I think i agree with you that scm speeds somewhere in the 350-500 range would feel a lot better, and then you could do things like tweaking projectile speeds to force closer engagements. Real world weapon range in space is limited only by the speed of the projectile vs. the speed of the target and your ability to predict where that target is going to be when the projectile gets there, lean into that instead of just gutting one of the best parts of your own flight model -_-

[@M4VERICK69]

Good overall take and insight on what is going to be an ongoing process as they deliver the rest of the systems that will have huge impacts on the dynamic flight model (engineering, control surfaces, QT boost etc)! Some important changes and balancing ahead for sure!!

[@samuelmorton4422]

Master Modes failed from the start. Having to constantly switch back and forth between Modes just to fly is clunky. SCM speeds are also way too low. You don't fly, you just hover around.

[@anno-fw7xn]

I think the mode shuld change tham selfe if you speed up or down.

[@xXE4GLEyEXx]

the only downside is that we wasted so much on MM :| plus Engineering sounds a bit more and more like Elite's which means... grrrrind :c

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

Not only grind, but you just lose unless you have fully upgraded your ship.

[@yonatanyoffe6831]

If I understand it correctly, we still have guns when traveling fast. if that's so then I really like it, because it's a nice balance between making lower speeds have an advantage of shields helping but also if you want to me more risky and fly fast then you still have the option to engage in a fight just without shields. I agree with you on the wording of master modes being out or sorta out. I also see how people might have been confused since I also was thinking/compartmentalizing the master modes as just being the option to disable shields and change speed. Would be interesting to see if the no shield fast speed with weapons could be a type of crafting specialization for something like the Arrow, I thing that would be neat ^-^

[@Stonehawk]

what i wanted were *shields* while traveling fast ._. but oh well...

[@TurpentineCat-bm3dh]

Each new update takes Star Citizen further away from what I pledged for back in 2012. It has gone from a highly technical space ship simulator to The Sims™ in space. The SC flight model peaked in version 2.6.2.

[@MikeB-ng3ol]

CIG is really doubling down on the universally hated low speeds lmao

[@thegeneral1955]

They want ww1 bi plane dog fighting pace in their 2954 space simulator lmao.

[@kps393]

​@@thegeneral1955 right makes zero sense

[@Banzai431]

Still not sure how I feel about crafting being made so important. If the implementation disappoints they would have put far too many eggs in that one basket.

[@gergenskits3940]

It might be a silly REASON to cite. but ANY excuse to get rid of master modes is fine with me. I just want them to get rid of the EXTREMLY SILLY "no shields while going fast" when, in any real universe, speed would be the main reason to have shields. Master modes was the worst Idea CIG has had since Hover mode well, That AND nerfing the redeemer and Corsair

[@Rhapses]

My only gripe with MM was the loss of shields. When in nav mode you should keep shields and lose weapons. When in SCM, you should retain weapons and shields but lose speed. That allows industrials to 'run' and fighters to fight. And if you really wanna gank that trader who cannot fight back? Well that is what the interdictors will be there for..

[@galathirgames]

I think most of the changes they described turn into semantics. Mostly, NAV turns into Qboost. It sounds like the spool up and down moving from SCM to NAV/Boost might be minimized. Other than that... The only real change is keeping weapons for Qboost... which I think might be mitigated by the 'power management' caveat they added. I also don't think we'll get guns back in Missile Op mode. Still expect them to be exclusive from each other. As an aside, you're on point inre complaints about MM which should have been directed at the speed tuning. None of this stuff has really changed the flight model since 3.10. They have just changed the tuning. I don't expect to feel any differently until we get Control Surfaces. Crafting will be huge... but that's all the copium I can muster about that until it's closer ;)

[@jasonames145]

when i was playing in 3.18 i think, i loved that some ships could take forever to slow down unless you turned them over end over end and booosted, while others had retro thrusters that stopped you nearly as fast forward as backward. it felt real. at what, 300 m/s, its like who cares how bad your retros are? i guess in a universe with q-boost, conventional speeds are primitive, but hten why does the herald need giant thrusters? do the drives make you q-boost even faster?

[@gatorpika]

Ultimately they are worried about the wrong things if this is about inexperienced players crashing into stations. The cost of losing an Aurora to a new player is minimal as the replacement time is short. Also they could solve that by implementing a default speed limiter that could be turned off in the ship config screen once the player feels comfortable enough with the game to take off the training wheels. To me it just feels wrong in general to have space ships fly slow (maybe ruining the immersion) and it takes away a lot of the adrenaline of combat. Since most of the game revolves around flying, it has to feel good or people will get bored with it and not want to do all the other time syncs like crafting, manually loading ships, etc.

[@TinMan445]

This has nothing to do with new players😂

[@gatorpika]

@@TinMan445 I know, it's about Chris wanting cinematic close in fights no matter how bad combat feels. Just mentioned it was a dumb excuse that could easily be fixed.

[@RealProjectTube]

I think shields should be "shed" the faster you go to a point where they are non existent when you hit a certain speed, let say 1000km/s. quantum travel should be very energy hungry sapping other non essential systems such as weapons the faster you go. This would make it possible to fight while at quantum speeds but make it risky and inefficient. This make it like many things in life while you CAN do something it makes it impractical in most use cases.

[@leggo15]

i just want high flight speeds... Wouldnt just making engines extremly power hungry work? So to work them effectivly you'd have to divert practically all your power to them and thus be unable to do anything else

[@andrewpeterson6065]

Master modes is 100% of the reason star citizen lost its allure to me this last year. MM paired with continued decreases in stability instead of increases in stability, have completely pushed me away from the franchise. Personally, I can deal with the instability, if the flight model is immersive and exciting.

[@AdamPolk-t1f]

Trivially easy to implement feature: Black market root-kit ships to disable/set speed limits. If the real impetus here is protect players from themselves, this satisfies both groups. Now, attain crazy speeds given enough time, takes just as much time to decelerate. Prevent griefing: shields of faster moving ships are weakened and shields of slower moving ships are strong versus fast moving objects. ...so, super fast moving ship used as a missile is actually a creampuff and is destroyed by target's shields easily.

[@varthelm]

Ok, so having to slowboat my way to an objective I can't quantum too on the ground just got way worse. Seems to me they need to not get rid of Nav top speeds until they have quantum boost in place. Either that or they just don't want people to play some aspects of the game until they do.

[@louieavi]

The change of Master Modes seems to be in the right decision but my frustration is the lack of inventory in ships. I can no long shop for armor and components without stuffing everything in a box. Im am less critical of ores and salvage being physicalized but transporting common goods between locations->ships->locations is a pain. Use ship consoles if you like but let personal/ship consoles talk to eachother.

[@patrickpaez]

Any artificial limits on ship features is just that. They might as well add in a dice roll and card system, maybe some loot boxes and daily XP boosts. OR let us have our space sim. If jousting is how space combat would actually work, then let it be. I’d rather be forced to learn how to use the physics than be forced to play in some limited set of developer’s rules.

[@afternoondelight6322]

Its because they want to shove their lame ass tier system down our throats. I paid $700 for a Persius and it's a shit tier 1...wtf?

[@nuanil]

@@afternoondelight6322 I'm basically on board with a system where better components allow your ship to fly better/differently. As far as I understood that was always the intent too. What I have issues with is all of these insanely low artificial speed caps in a simulation. Let the dumbasses splat against a station, they'll either learn, or they'll quit. Making a game for the lowest common denominator never pleases anyone.

[@MrLuc420]

I agree. I think jousting is actually cool and realistic. Irl space warfare would be very long range engagements. Not Ww2 style dogfights.

[@daveg1701]

Nobody want realistic space flight and orbital mechanics in this game. Combat would be done at a distance of thousands of KM with rail guns and missiles traveling at near relativistic velocities. With Newtonian physics, most pilots would end up on ballistic trajectories because they don’t understand that you need to increase your horizontal velocity relative to a gravity well to attain orbit and “fall” around it. People wouldn’t be able to intercept because it’s hard to understand that you need to reduce orbital velocity to go “down” and increase it to go “up”. You would need to calculate Hoffman transfers to intercept other planetary bodies. This can be a fun niche for a game but isn’t the Wing Commander, Star Wars, WWII feel that SC is based on.

[@afternoondelight6322]

@daveg1701 This could all be settled by just boosting up the fuckin combat speeds a bit. But Chris and that mindless turd yogi can't get out of their own way.

[@Incariuz]

If we can get combat speeds of around 400-500 at least, while also getting the quantum boost, I'll be happy. Current combat speeds seem insanely slow, and travelling in SCM is such a drag. I'm no pro pilot by any means, but I rarely crashed in game, and tho I just got a HOSAS setup yesterday and I'm atrocious with it, I know I'll improve in time, and being limited like we are currently would kinda suck.

[@fnunez]

The new emphasis on crafting, as opposed to it just being one more profession, tells me that CIG has decided to keep selling ships even after 1.0. If the ships you buy with real cash are all tier 1 and you can craft them up to tier 5, it allows CIG to continue using that revenue stream and remove all claims that the game takes no effort if you are rich enough.

[@strongback6550]

I don't think the slow dog fights brought about by Master modes will die. To me it's quite obvious because it makes fleet combat far more sensible. Before, tri-cording made you invincible and light fighters king. Now, combat is a commitment and any attack makes you vulnerable to being attacked. It's very easy to understand, as opposed to the previous meta.

[@TheJakebriscoe]

add it to the list of features Chris mismanaged by micro managing it, having it go to complete feature only to the pull it and scrap it all together.

[@wild_lee_coyote]

I still think they should let us go faster with lower shields. Make the shields drag on spacetime so that the stronger shields the slower you go. Full shields you go SCM speeds. No shields you go closer the traditional max speeds we had. This will make racing more fun and not a gimmick. Max speed is can be explained because shields still have a base level for micrometeoroid protection. Take the component out and your hull slowly takes damage. Fly with it out the damage is much faster. Your fighter jocks can still go fast. They just take less hits to kill or disable. Do you have to deliver a load of distilled spirits through a dry system in only a couple of hours. Well drop your shields Snowman and put the peddle to the metal.

[@positronikiss]

SC turned from MY FAV GAME EVER to my MOST DISLIKED SOFTWARE GAME EVER in a matter of 1 year and a half.

[@markcritic2409]

I love that you brought back the Hotdog Hull-A

[@amineabdz]

Mastermodes is bad because of many aspects, the most offending being the arbitrary low speed wall in space, which is what they are keeping.

[@the_omg3242]

I think their reasoning is, "why should a spaceship in the far future be able to fly faster than a modern airliner?"

[@aaronhunyady]

As always, CIG fixes an L by making it a bigger L. When CIG says they're limiting speed to SCM, they say it's for "gameplay" reasons. They are straight up lying about this. The only reason they don't want combat at speed is because they lazily and shortsightedly designed the game based on absolute speed rather than relative speed. They have to overload the servers to get higher player counts, and this imposes a limit on how fast you can fly (~400 m/s) before desync starts causing problems. They used to let us fly at any speed up to the max of 1300 m/s with no restrictions. Gameplay was better in all respects, except that shots never landed at that speed due to desync. Limiting us to the snail's pace SCM speed is the absolute laziest way to "fix" the problem. It does stop us from playing the game, and that reduces server load, so maybe that's what they're going for. If SCM is the fastest you can go, then mining, the *only* developed non-combat gamplay, is dead. And before you say "oh, but we can fly fast using the new fancy quantum boost mode and... and... crafting!", I will point out that none of those exist, and if CIG's promises were reality, we'd all be exploring deep space phenomena and farming exotic food in our Endeavors.

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

Desync isn't a speed issue. This is evident by desync being a massive issue with FPS combat.

[@aaronhunyady]

@@Roboticus_Prime_RC Desync has many causes, one of which is speed of travel.

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

@@aaronhunyady I don't think I have seen CIG mention that even once. It's a myth made up by the shills.

[@nuanil]

@@aaronhunyady It's not travel speed, unless we're talking data packets, and then you just have to enable a better client side authority

[@tafferinthedark]

@@Roboticus_Prime_RC Desync is not caused by speed. But it is made SO MUCH worse by speed. It was quite the topic in Rainbow Six some time ago, about the advantage fast operators have when peeking around corners. Because they can see a stationary (or slow target) at least a fraction of a second sooner, and that is often enough, when you can kill in 1 shot. And there were all kinds of tricks to optimize this, like not leaning prior to the peek, but just at the very last instant to maximize the benefit of your movement speed. And that is at walking speed. Now imagine how massive it becomes when the object is moving at 1,300m/s. I am not in favor of Master Modes, and I think slow speeds in spaceships are lame. But the problem is real.

[@elixer88]

Hopefully they don't slow us down like this before Quantum Boost is out. If we're limited to SCM and they have Quantum Travel drop us off way away from things, that'll be a pain. Without more info on how much a speed boost crafting is, we can't really speculate. I also wonder how crafting will be implemented. Hopefully it won't be a gigantic grind, but just a big grind. I've only started playing again recently, but I was pretty fine with Master Modes. I agree with you, I don't think they gave it enough time. It feels like they are kids who "got bored" with it, but OTOH having all the stuff in Operator Modes makes sense. As does allowing ships with turrets to be able to fight back, answering the age of question of "So if I want to escape in a big ship, I'm just not allowed?"

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

So they're going to make it so unless you T5 all of your ship components, you're just a sitting duck.

[@nuanil]

And that's where they are making the mistake. They balance around speeds and not accelerations.

[@johnpi2608]

@@Roboticus_Prime_RC It will be just like elite dangerous and probably massive time sinks too!

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

@johnpi2608 yuck

[@Patch1xo]

All we cared about was bumping scm speeds up a little and balancing weapon speeds for that.

[@TheLordSkippy]

I like the "same speed in all modes" a lot. And I don't really care what that speed is. But I'm afraid of noobs vs "experienced" players. It's now not a skill imbalance anymore but a "who crafted who's ship to a higher level". I really wonder how actual skill will still play a role going forward.

[@keithent2447]

Yeah. They basically are penalizing people who don't have all the redhorse in the world and giving the dedicated pirates all the benifits. Because they will max out the speed so people can't outrun them.

[@axelmousti5812]

Just got surprised once and instantly fixed my gameplay never had speed issue since. Being unable to adapt such simple change should bring oneself to the serious realisation of a health issue.

[@MrLuc420]

Some people are just destined to be crew rather than pilots. But that wouldn't sell ships.

[@axelmousti5812]

@@MrLuc420 maybe i lack perspective but i think it's concerning, the main function of the brain is to adapt and mine is supposed to be sick.

[@cyanetica4802]

"More power in thrusters = more speed" would be an actual reason to assign some more power to the thrusters.

[@wisewolf9353]

Maybe if they capped speeds of standard crafts and upped the speeds of racing craft it'd make more sense and make racing a more desired thing to do.

[@marneus]

Why can't we just go to the system before MM. Everyone liked that one.

[@Gofr5]

I still hate ship tiers and wish they weren't a thing. Components upgrades alone should be how you upgrade your ships. Ship tiers is terrible.

[@latjolajban81]

Yup. Crafting should have other "custom" ships than we can craft. Not the same ships at higher tiers.

[@jebidyah]

If you feel like you are constantly boosting and running out of boost, and basically just run with 100% power to engines anytime you do any bit of travel, you might guess the overall speeds are just too low.......

[@AccidentalFriendlyFire]

Has anyone yet pointed out the chaos an SRV can cause to someone trying to escape? Gotta drop shields to flee, they grab you, you can't escape. Don't even need quantum dampeners and the like.

[@LittleLightUwU]

i hope the crasfting for better ships doesnt escalates to the point of engineering in elite dangerous, the grind took over and a unengineered ship had no chance in pvp

[@t-vest]

The real problem i had with master mode was waiting for shields to discharge before you could fly away. If they made it where you had to have a certain level of power to engines to get to higher speeds and you would have to sacrifice shields and or weapons depending on the ship i think it would have worked better. Cutting power to shield generators would just mean your shields would not regenerate after taking hits not that you have to wait 5 sec to run away from an enemy.

[@Karackal]

To orbit? What orbit? To orbit one of the planets of the game at 500m/s you'd need to be so high up that the gravity well doesn't exist anymore, because the "spheres of influence" (to borrow a term from KSP) are incredibly tiny in SC.

[@nuanil]

The ISS orbits at about 4000m/s... just sayin.

[@bioautomaton_user]

I feel like they just keep watering down the game, making it less and less skill-based. I'm not a fan of the direction CIG has been taking SC recently.

[@shaftoe195]

The wallets have spoken.

[@myhigh_gaming]

I think there´s a big misconception here. MM isn´t dead at all. The devs said, that the actual MM are just "presets" the devs thought would be "a well balanced setting" - but indeed, the mastermodes stay, but will be more customizable than the actual ones. That doesn´t mean they´re gone, this just means, you can now configure them more like you want them to fit for your playstyle. But they still be "master modes".. the master modes depend on energy distribution. You can´t have shields and weapons with full energy on the engines... you have to finde a proper balance. It simply affects the distribution more than the old triangle. For explanation: actual MM SCM = Shields up, Weapons up, energy for engines way down Navi Moge = shields off, weapons off, full power on engines and QT drive enabled New MM= u decide which components get energy - so if you want to be faster than the actuall SCM mode => weapons need longer to recharge or do less damage or shield has less power and is less durable. If you want full speed your weapons can maybe shoot, but your shields are weak and you´re a fast glass cannon. So no, MM is not gone... don´t know why people say that. They just don´t listen careful enough

[@Motoboo_Marine]

I get the crafting thing for ships, but for weapons and armor idk. I can live with constantly dying and losing all my stuff if I die if everything isn't too hard to replace, but if I put all that work into upgrading a complete loadout just to loose it all it's gonna make me not want to bother anymore. Not every game needs to be Escape from Tarkov.

[@taprackmiss4613]

I just wish nav mode didnt keep speed limited until the drive has spooled. That 4 sec of shield dropping and slow speed is a death trap trying to evade danger.

[@braisfigueira5032]

The problem I see is that in a game where the flight is sort of important, and while some tweaking us ro be expected, redefine the flight model so many times in so little time is woerysome to say the least

[@FlightLizard]

I know it's probably a ways off, if ever, but having child objects inherit the speed of the parent object would be nice. That way we could undock or leave ship hangars with the parent ship still moving. Or jump out of a ship moving fast so we can close the distance on a ship or station in a stealthier sort of way, till we have to hit the brakes.

[@NicholasRyan0723]

I am probably on the opposite end of what most people are and that is I like the vision they have for flight speeds. In order to have a form of progression with ships one of the variables of progression will be speed. This requires that there is a breadth of different speeds in order to progress upwards. That further requires that the threshold for base ships is slower. Right now, because we do not have the mechanics in game like crafting and more tiers of ships all base speeds are slow. But as more of these features come online speeds will increase because we will get higher tiers of ships and components.

[@KidInTheHall28]

I do not like Master Modes, I prefer the previous flight model, the new model felt to floaty for me especially when trying to land.

[@latjolajban81]

It should feel floaty. But I don't think the current model is floaty at all. I think it feels like a turret flying in mud.

[@VeikPulse]

How much SCU does the hotdog containers carry?

[@DriftaholiC]

I'm worried if general travel from place to place what they are now calling quantum boost is too fast it will be hard to find and interact with players (piracy) short of predicting their movements and setting snares. A speed wall for the slower speeds has always felt unnatural and stupid to be honest. They should have exponentially diminishing acceleration but never a wall. It would accomplish the same thing but not feel dumb. I would be ok if we could push all the power from weapons and shields and other systems to thrusters to increase our speed. Maybe allowing a player to joust or boom and zoom at the expense of having their shields up.

[@easterworshipper5579]

i am hopeful about crafting and quantum boost, so the base speed doesnt matter. here is how i think it will pan out: you can craft and and maybe even rep your engine skill all the way to t5, increasing you standard cruising speed from 250 all the way to 500 at full power to engines. that is a 100% increase! then you can craft and rep your quantum boost to t5 and get another 50% speed increase during boost! so just imagine cruising along at 500, and being able to boost for a couple of seconds at a breakneck 750 at t5 with only a 30 sec cooldown? youre gonna love it!

[@svgPhoenix]

speed limits are incredibly stupid. if I'm not in-atmo, my thrusters should provide acceleration. the fact that I can use boost and get 0m/s/s out of it is completely ridiculous. Sure, the quantum drives can do a lot more than traditional thrusters, but if I want to hit 1M m/s using hydrogen fuel, I should be able to do it.

[@nuanil]

And we should be able to run OUT of H2 and be fubar....

[@noxvardeen6978]

They could link SCM speed to power in Thrusters. 50% in thrusters (roughly) should be a bit higher than current SCM speed, with full thrusters increasing it to current speed when boosting; with boosting increasing it beyond those. Further, boosting currently is too powerful for maneuvering… since when do maneuvering thrusters have afterburners …

[@Aethid]

I dont understand how crafting is progression in any way. As long as everything that can be crafted can be sold on the market, crafting will be both entirely optional and also nothing but a credit income stream - like any other profession. It also wont matter *which* blueprints you specialise in. Without non-transferrable benefits to owning one blueprint over another, the *only* difference between any two blueprints is their proffit margin. All else is simply flavour text. You would pick a crafting specialisation based on profit. Not based on whether or not you want to personally own the items that are to be crafted. Just use the profit to buy those items.

[@Real_Eggman]

Star Ciitzen... arcade? What an awful combination

[@anno-fw7xn]

New tomato video! I raely hope fliying fields as good before the mastermode systeme and in my opionen the engerie output of the genratore shuld deicde how fast you go. 5:00 i think that not a mjore problem you could set up you own power presets ( prepraire playerd would be better of) also i think it shuld be my choise if i have shield or weapons if you go realy realy fast. The problem is that we never will get space battel like in the trailer ( like the honrat one) We dont need to move that a mjoreproblem.

[@EuroB0B1]

Hmm so what am I doing when I have Quantum drive charged and hold W, shift and left alt? I'm seeing 1000m/s and can cruise at this speed. Cornering is well not really at that speed. Wtb ship fitting ui.

[@Dytoractor]

I haven't really understood Master Modes other than it slightly changed how I fly and what I can do while flying. I am not even sure things like no shields while QT is a Master Mode or not? I can't keep up with the constant changes that are not well documented and I can't tell if it affects my game play or not. I do know one thing, I have felt like a noob for 10 years~!

[@chaadlosan]

Excellent Video. I am very happy with the Elite Style Engineering to making your ship faster, more powerful, etc. Your gonna have to WORK FOR IT. GIT GOOD SCRUB!

[@skepticalpianist3266]

im so pissed i cant revert the controlls so scroll wheel is to adjust flight speed. flying is harder now on a keybaord because i gotta hold alt now while scrolling and i cant even understand the UI properly. there needs to be options to switch between gui and ui versions. and control versions

[@kelleylafitte6503]

If side and reverse thrust speeds are still the same as forward thrust speeds then I don't believe they're trying to fix the issue. Jousting did, at least, have the effect of curtailing that but if a Cutty can circle-strafe with zero penalties in atmo or if enemy players/ NPC's can reverse away from any attempt to overtake and get behind them then all of this is still just smokescreens and fluff.

[@BoardGameClub]

Crafting sounds a lot like Elite Dangerous’ engineering. I’m wondering if when you die you lose the crafted item/ship part.

[@MisterFoxton]

I can't find a single explanation, idea or announcement about crafting that has put it in a positive light, even by CIG. They can't seem to spin it as anything except "we're basing the entire game around a time sink" and that isn't for me. It's a bit sad to wait 13 years for a game only to have it turn into another game before it even hits beta.

[@TheNucaKola]

Man I don’t envy the CIG team responsible for crafting and constantly retooling the flight model

[@BC-kx2gx]

It seems as though it will be moving closer to what a player can do to engineer ships in Elite Dangerous.

[@TristXD]

Pre-MM was much more skill based. After MM it became DPS based. I'd prefer if the better pilot was a major factor in victory rather than who ever has crafted or paid for the best components.