The Night JonBenét Died | Podcast Episode 150

[@TheUncleRuckus]

Small correction the purpose of the Grand Jury is to see whether or not the Prosecution has enough evidence to formally charge an individual(s) with a crime, they do not have say on what charges will be brought e.g. Murder, Attempted Murder, Homicide, Negligent Homicide etc. that is set by the DA and Case Law, also the charge(s) are usually determined before the Grand Jury is convened. 👍👍

[@TheLoreLodge]

Thank you!

[@pineywoodslawandcrime]

⁠@@TheLoreLodgeand the standard of proof at the grand jury is merely “probable cause”. All the state has to show them (and the target/defendant usually doesn’t get a say) is that the facts presented by the state give rise to probable cause to belief the instant crime has been committed.

[@edacheson8540]

​@@pineywoodslawandcrimedon't forget that there are fewer restrictions on the evidence the prosecutor can show the grand jury. Generally speaking, of course.

[@TheUncleRuckus]

@@TheLoreLodge Holy Crap I got a like 😱

[@pineywoodslawandcrime]

@ absolutely. Hearsay evidence, for example, is sometimes allowed. Good point.

[@TheTarman]

For the people dismissing Burke as the killer on the basis of his age: -Most parents will absolutely lie to the cops to protect their child, even if the victim of that child was another of their own children -9-year-olds are more than capable of general violence, as well as SA, even if they don’t fully-comprehend the intended purpose of sexual acts in a conventional setting Source: My abuse at the hands of my brother, which started when I was 2-3 and he was 5-6, lasting until I was 12 and he was 15 Your moral outrage and kneejerk reactions to such morbid implications don’t make them less viable and realistic

[@deltasyn7434]

And people who don't think he could have caused the skull fracture should look at how common skull fractures are in Little League baseball.

[@TheTarman]

@@deltasyn7434 it legitimately makes the most sense to me of all the possible theories. So much of the dismissal rests upon the acts being too morbid or harsh to place upon another child, but child-on-child abuse happens so often and goes severely underreported, maybe the most of any kind of abuse I can think of, and it’s very indicative of a lot of people being very sheltered to see them adamantly refuse to humor it A big reason there are so many adult monsters is because the bad things they were likely already doing as kids were never caught and appropriately punished/remedied in some fashion. Much like how silly the “random intruder with no personal connections to the family at all” theory realistically is, it’s silly how people think bad people spring up out of thin air one day with no warning signs

[@jerryrocketandthegogogirls3517]

It’s not that it couldn’t happen, it’s that the probability of a 9 year old killing someone is INSANELY less than an adult killing someone

[@TheTarman]

@@jerryrocketandthegogogirls3517 I don’t disagree on a statistical level, the problem is that there’s a decent amount of evidence pointing towards that being the case in this specific instance, due to what has and hasn’t been able to be concretely ruled out with DNA, forensic, and circumstantial evidence. If someone disagrees with the idea Burke did it based on factors that aren’t emotional “but he’s just a kid” sentiments, fair enough, but even a 9-year-old Burke killing his sister is more likely, both statistically and on a common sense level, than some random intruder straight out of the Penpal creepypasta sneaking in, not alerting *anyone* in the house, then assaulting/killing her, getting away Scot-free after setting the scene to look like an abduction. The official narrative is so absurd for so many premise-level reasons, while the idea of child-on-child abuse (which is insanely common) and murder is fantastical to a great many people who believe it

[@staruchx]

then there need to find why he would have anger issues and why parents didnt stop him from SA sister if that was part of it. I do belivie accident happened between the kids but the SA one is i dont know yet

[@Weirdoeevee]

As someone who was abused in that manner, i can attest that a perpetrator can do this without the mother knowing anything easily.

[@TiredBirb490]

Yep. My mom didn’t know until she walked in on it

[@wickedhero13]

Yep my family didn't know the 14yr old neighbor boy molested me for a year as a child till I was almost 30.. never let your kids go to other kids houses cause sometimes it's the older kids not their parents ya gotta worry about.

[@Weirdoeevee]

@wickedhero13 why my kiddo doesn't go on sleepovers

[@maxTheTimeSlasher]

Sorry to hear that

[@JulieRushworth-k4w]

Sadly I'm on your path, appropriate love 💜

[@aqo911]

When I was working as a mortician, if we ever removed the body of a child, regardless of age, the mother and sometimes the entire family followed us to the transfer vehicle. Every single time.

[@shaftomite007]

The simple fact that the "ransom note" was written on a notepad that was already inside the house completely negates the story about "a small foreign faction" being responsible. Look much closer to home.

[@jennyray1476]

Exactly, no intruder is going to take that amount of time to write a novel of a ransom note , and look for a pen and notepad within the house

[@charliekezza]

And put the pen back where it belongs

[@marleysankor]

Nothing else about being in fear of the small foreign faction from the R's. They they then changed it to a pedo ring!

[@StellaReardon]

I hate to say it, but back then the ransom note seemed at first to be the stupidest thing to do by whomever is guilty here. Having the benefit of looking back, it was a stroke of genius. Proof being, the murderer(s) have never been caught....and, case still unsolved when even a grand jury indicted them. Baffling. No intruder, no way.

[@MrWrongUK369]

And was in her handwriting. All day every day. And "the ransom note" not a ransom note.....like the cat..not a cat.

[@adenkyramud5005]

Guys, i have a case from germany that might be of interest to you: the Rebecca Reusch disappearance. A very very short summary of it is that a 15 year old girl (Rebecca Reusch) stayed at the house of her sister and her sister's husband. She disappeared, has never been confirmed to have been seen outside of the house on that day or after, and the police heavily suspect the husband of her sister to have killed her. He said he was at a work party the day before and came home late and very drunk, but at the morning of her disappearance he not only said things that are strange (spotting that a blanket was missing before it was known that something happened with rebecca, in a room he described as completely dark) but was also seen driving towards poland and back (and people claimed to have seen him in a wooded area around that time) and has never once said why he drove there or what he did. Oh and the parents of rebecca keep protecting him, and the entire family keeps acting really really strangely. It's a really wild case, still unsolved, with many different theories floating around so it would surely be right up your alley. If needed I'm sure german community members, including myself, would be able to assist with translations and finding german language resources. Edit: there are also reported sightings of her outside of germany, meaning she could be alive and probably outside of germany meaning bringing international eyes on this case could help IF she is indeed still alive, but that's a biiiiig if. I really hope you guys will look into it, it's one of the most insanely confusing and mysterious cases i have come across and it's still fairly recent (it happened in february 2019)

[@amandahall3840]

As a lock smith, you can in fact pick a lock relocked. There are several other nondestructive means of entry, such as shimming or or using a bump key. Non of these methods leave any sign the door was opened.

[@alexirobinson5515]

Thanks for your comment my ears pricked up when he said that with such authority 😂

[@wickedhero13]

I used to unlock my coworkers door that was dead bolted shut with chain inside on every morning to wake him for work so he didn't wake up his wife and kids getting up at 4am..Really not hard to do once you know what your doing.

[@finsternis1986]

Wouldn't you just shut the door back and reverse the tension in the cylinder, so that the pins fall back into place? I experimented with picking my own (well, parents') house lock as a teenager. And various locks, to varied success over the years (just mine and consenting friends). It's pretty fun lol.

[@wickedhero13]

@finsternis1986 pretty much... 99 percent of locks are terrible good ol lock picking lawyer can teach ya in seconds how to access any lock on yt.. as a kid I just did it for fun now I help ppl that lock themselves outta their homes or cars pretty neat skill to know. The air bags ya use to get into cars works wonders on popping door frames as well an its so quite.

[@samuraidriver4x4]

Little click on 2, counter rotation on 4 and we have an open. 😂 I love single pin picking but with good technique it's shocking how easy it is to rake an average lock open and closed. Busy practicing zipping technique alot these days. Reverse picking is certainly posible.

[@redgolfgti07]

In line one on the second page of the ‘ransom note’ from the ‘foreign faction’ it reads “and, hence” an odd conjunction of words as ‘hence’ eliminates the need for the ‘and’ - it’s clumsy and unusual. Interestingly the very same ‘and, hence’ is used in one of her Christmas letters.

[@kelleyjohnson7694]

100 per cent agree with you ❤❤❤

[@heldinahtmlhell]

Just look at the handwriting comparison, it's IDENTICAL. I don't know how anyone can look at them and not conclude it was written by Patsy.

[@LaLaLonna]

She wrote the letter. I'm my mind there's no doubt about that.

[@sharimeline3077]

I've never used "and" with "hence." And I've written a lot of academic papers sometimes using "hence." To me that means that the writer was educated, either in college, or just a person that was intelligent and educated themselves.

[@sharimeline3077]

@@heldinahtmlhell It's not identical or the handwriting analyst would have said it was identical. However, I do agree it looks very close to Patsy's writing (not identical). But my writing also looks like that. Or pretty close.

[@seranomaly]

my fav new legal defense: "we're just 2 guys"

[@morgotha42]

I was s.a.'ed by my uncle for years in the basement and NO one knew! and it happened when everyone was upstairs. I was to young to know it was wrong! so the mom being so shocked about the s.a. does not surprise me!

[@rsdenimblues8342]

@@morgotha42 I think john benet was molested by her dad since she was little at the age of 6 she could talk

[@heldinahtmlhell]

Oh Lord, all the wine Aunts projecting their trauma. Not everything is about you. Look at the evidence ffs. Patsy is the one responsible. You're the reason women get away with murder. Patsy wrote the ransom note (it matches her handwriting perfectly, she changed her handwriting when giving a sample to the police, it uses phrases she used). Her red jumper fibres were found on the duct tape over JB's mouth, on the knots in the rope, on the paintbrush container. And which is more likely: that a husband will support his wife, who has killed their young daughter, or a wife will support her husband? I don't know many women who would support their husband, if he'd killed, and possibly sexually assaulted, their 6 year old daughter.

[@daltonsales5481]

Were the parents her killers? Maybe, maybe not. Were they complicit to her murder? 100%. There's no way they didn't know it happened in their house.

[@ShadowMoses900]

Those are my thoughts as well. Someone knows more than they're letting on.

[@PhillTPT9]

This is how I feel. I get frustrated with people who so stubbornly side with either RDI or IDI (there separate subreddits for each) that they don’t spend time exploring ideas like that an ‘intruder’ did it, but with assistance/facilitation from the Ramsey’s.

[@RobMindeck]

The brother did it.

[@s1nd3r3llee]

I think the brother did it, and the parents freaked out and covered it up. Think he was mad and resentful of his sister and hit her in the head. He had already been known to have spread his feces on her bed and bedroom walls!

[@orphanedhanyou]

They couldn't possibly have known the police on scene would be so incompetent as to not find her themselves though.

[@kittyhawk413]

Years ago, my cousin had anger issues, got into a fight with his brother, and hit him in the head with a jar of coins. The brother had to go to the hospital and was fine after, but it was a huge wake up call for my cousin. I could totally believe this was a similar situation for Burke without the happy ending and potentially without the wakeup call.

[@graceritchie-z5x]

Similar thing has happened in my family with a ten year old hurting a 7 year old. People say there’s not way Burke could’ve done something so drastic it would result in JB’s death, but unfortunately children are capable of fatally wounding other children and it does happen.

[@sorguinazia]

This is my belief too. He assaulted her before as well, with a golf club

[@tanyabenavides4287]

I really thought Burke did it by accident when JB took some of his pineapple after they got home. But I have a hard time believing anyone in that house used the garrote on her(especially since they say she was alive and trying to get it off while she was being strangled). I just don't know.

[@orphanedhanyou]

The issue is the other injuries

[@79bewareofpuppies97]

Burke could be a blind and deaf quadriplegic and people would still blame him over his parents.

[@thorazine]

i’ve followed this case for years-not as closely as some folks, but def more than the average true crime enthusiast-and your video the other day was the first i had ever heard about patsy’s talent in pageants. it’s not a smoking gun ofc, but it definitely puts some aspects of the case in a new light, especially the disparity between john’s reaction and hers.

[@faulltw]

Hi, when you say Patsy's talent I guess you mean she was in pageants herself? How do you believe this effected their reactions? Just interested in your theory, not being disrespectful or aggressive.

[@lorimiller4301]

Maybe it's because Patsy was more dramatic than John ? I think most people assume pagents have creepy men, and it would appear to others that it was Patsy's fault for introducing Jon Benet to the pagent world. Patsy would have felt very guilty. As her mother, it was her responsibility to look after the children's well-being. He had already lost a daughter. Plus, not all men cry in public.

[@jameslee5765]

You absolutely can reverse pick a lock. I've done it several times in my lifetime. It's done exactly the same way you pick a lock . Unless the crime you commit would go unnoticed would be the only time one would reverse pick a lock.in this case, no way someone take the time to do it

[@Treewithmoss]

Done it so many times to move things in my brothers room while he was sleeping to freak him out.

[@Novsev9069]

⁠@@Treewithmossbro lmao

[@syyneater]

It’s not uncommon within the infosec world. Sometimes you need to maintain access just long enough to do something and that often involves not being detected (picking and locking the door between guards making rounds). You can also just be too lazy to rekey your interior garage door.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

​@@syyneater Nah, just put a piece of tape over the latch so you're not locked in while you work, a security guard would NEVER pick up on a piece of tape over a latch. Those guys are CLUELESS! 😅

[@jameslee5765]

Also I already know about the 911 call the parents made. And how they didn't hang up the phone correctly and you over hear the mother and the father crying and saying "what did you do"? And there is only 3 ppl in the house. So jr did it. No locks needed picked that nite

[@AuntBee185]

Pat Brown Profiler caught John in two conflicting statements about their doors being locked. He said Boulder was so safe they always left their doors un locked. He also said the only place anyone could get in was the broken window he forgot to get fixed.

[@historiccorner2442]

Your collection and presentation of so much information and clarifying what's misinformation is great. Very admirable.

[@DPRK_Ohio]

starts at 2:50

[@TheUncleRuckus]

Not all hero's wear Capes 👍👍

[@retard_activated]

Thank you!

[@CodyHomes]

Thanks for the help. Keep up the good work and stay safe.

[@notbanjelacic]

can't believe I'm about to say this, but thank you Democratic People's Republic of Korea (Ohio)

[@TheZombieburner]

Thanks, ya filthy commie.

[@racheljohnstone9574]

I have chronic pain and illness. Sure i went to the doctor every month for a few years, when i was first diagnosed. But I also had specialist, and counselor, and occupational, and phsio, and phsyiatry appointments at the same time for the same duration. Now i go to the doctor maybe 3 or 4 times a year if that. My sister has a genetic issue which gave her a similar experience for a significantly longer period. My friends with chronic issues have had fairly similar experiences, as we have talked about them. For her to be going to a doctor that much but also not that much, something is very very wrong.

[@kailchipzz]

So the reverse dna test is referencing the fact that the DNA that is currently with law enforcement is coded for a system like Codis where you match the DNA to others in the LE system. What they want to do is the Investigative Genetic Geneology or IGG...which is how they are solving a bunch of cold cases. This is where they look at the unique identifying markers in the DNA strand and try to find an ancestral line that is related to the DNA at the scene. This DNA is mostly from companies like Ancestory. John Ramsey is asking for LE to provide the original DNA to test using IGG. The DNA they are using atm is coded and can not be used for IGG.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Agree, there is zero connection to John thinking about the boy in the box case this dude just pulled out of nowhere.

[@brandonpeterman9964]

And the Boulder PD is still publicly refusing to allow any outside source to assist in trying to solve this case.

[@Zeigryo]

“Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance , or incompetence.” The other side of that is that a sufficient level of those things is a malice all its own.

[@coryl5015]

Another thing that could easily explain how an intruder knew the layout to the Ramsey house: The Ramseys would open their house to the public for Christmas and other home-opening/Gingerbread home tours. Random members of the public would just take a tour of the house, it could be anyone just casing the house and mentally taking notes of what to do. (I haven't watched the whole video yet, so if yall cover it I'll delete this comment)

[@TheLoreLodge]

The first floor yes, but not the basement or upstairs

[@coryl5015]

@TheLoreLodge From what I remember reading about the case though, there were quite a few people going through that house possibly at once. Could one have snuck off and planned stuff out? The whole Michael Helgoth sui thing was strange AF. I'm still leaning towards Occams razor of Burke probably had something to do with it...dudes Def a creep.

[@berniehayes8425]

Hey in one of John's first interviews he told the police that the train room window was slightly ajar and was open an eighth of an inch..in another report it was wide open..and as for Patys sister getting the golf clubs...what was in the golf trundler..and apparently Pam's sister returned dressed in a police uniform..everything stinks about this case..

[@annwood6812]

@@coryl5015 the kid was nine. He's not making a garrote.

[@mikejones9906]

@@TheLoreLodgeWhat boggles my mind about this case is how people still question who did it. It’s the most bizarre case of cognitive dissonance I’ve ever seen. It was obviously the parents, they were abusing her, the coroner said she had been touched. None of it makes sense and the only reason they aren’t rotting in jail is because Ramsey was a rich guy who sold his company to Lockheed Martin. This is the first instance where people really understood how powerful rich people are and what they can get away with. They murdered their daughter and everyone knows it.

[@tamaraerickson6428]

Perhaps Patsy was dressed in the same clothes, hair and makeup done because she never went to bed. Maybe the incident happened right in front of her. She and John then spend the night staging everything after sending Burke to bed.

[@blacksesamecandies]

I definitely believe this could be the case. I'm just wondering what scenario of RDI could have happened? Burke accidentally getting mad and causing a fatal injury? Maybe they were playing around and then the head-injury accured? Did Patsy or Jon get angry and accidentally do something that caused the head-injury then spent the night staging it? Let's see, affluent family having a busy Christmas-day late at a friend's party - then supposedly getting up early to travel out of state for a "2nd Christmas". Parents are probably exhausted and stressed, their kids may be hyped up on sugar and excitement after being at a party with other kids. Maybe they rather stay up and play with their new Christmas toys then going and traveling away from home again. There is motive for Jon at least to protect himself from going to jail for negligence, he seemed the most eager to leave. I think Patsy was an accomplice and seemed more emotionally distressed than anyone. She probably had a part in hiding the scene.. Burke either was kept in the dark and controlled.. if he does have some developmental delay like autism I just don't see him keeping a secret that well.. at his age. I do think calling so many people over was an intentional ploy to hide and confuse the matter on their part though..it's just so bizarre how everything occured.

[@ad6417]

THIS

[@heldinahtmlhell]

It happened right in front of her because she was the one who did it.

[@LaLaLonna]

That's my thinking. I don't think she ever went to bed that night.

[@sbcc3415]

​@@heldinahtmlhellHer or John in my opinion.

[@RambleT26]

I love how you talk the evidence out from different angles. One thing you have to take into consideration for your intruder theory though, is that John said he had broken the glass weeks earlier when he forgot his keys, so he could get into the house. That would be why there was no broken glass, the window had already been broken prior and it stands to reason that John or someone would have cleaned up the glass after he broke himself in.

[@basic_CeceRae]

Yes but with there being intact cobwebs 🕸️ that were undisturbed in that tiny window 🪟 it’s virtually impossible someone can thru it.

[@mysterybluff6947]

Intruder used the door to enter and exit.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

@@mysterybluff6947 There was NO intruder!!

[@RambleT26]

I understand that but it was said over and over during their breakdown that there was “no glass” and that should be a sticking point to discredit the intruder theory. However, if John had broken it weeks earlier to get into the house it would explain why there was no glass. That’s literally all I am saying. I personally think Burke did it and the parents covered it up. I am just saying that he shouldn’t be hyper focusing on no glass when there seems to be a reasonable explanation.

[@mysterybluff6947]

@LittleBlueOwl318 Respectfully, shouting that over and over does not change the legitimate investigation of a possible intruder. Let's see what they find on further testing of the garrote.

[@Fluffinator129]

Regarding the doctor visits, 33 visits in 3 years sounds to me like one visit a month, which may in no way change the implications, but it is possible her parents had monthly checkups done for unrelated reasons. Just an observation. Could %100 be nefarious.

[@Lacamina5]

I have a 5 and and 8 year old. 33 visits is A LOT

[@orphanedhanyou]

As a mom with cancer (& clearly a very "together" type A person), would her being overly cautious about her kids health be a possibility when she faced her mortality at a younger age than most?

[@charlielee1430]

I have worked in peds for more than 30 years and there are actually a lot of people who bring their kids in regularly every time they sneeze or stub their toe or have a hang nail, so 33 visits in 3 years is not that unusual, it would all depend on what she was being seen for,. So you you would need to see the medical records to know.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

@@Lacamina5 It is. But they were rich.

[@jeffsmith4110]

I used to work for a company where we flew private a lot on a 6-seater. Schedules for us were approximations. The pilots were at our service, and like a car ride, when we arrived, they'd say "is there anyone else coming?" and if the answer was "no," they'd load us and leave. It's not at all like flying commercial.

[@ericnunezx]

So you can take illegal objects on board?

[@MrHws5mp]

Hey guys, I know subjects like this are depressing and get you down at times, but look at it like this: the more consistently good work you keep putting out there, the more chance there is that some day what you do will actually move the needle the right way, in some way. Even if it doesn't affect any of the cases you've covered, somebody who's seen your videos and has them in the back of their mind will find themselves actually in one of these situations, and will be motivated & able to do the right thing because of what they've learned here. Ironically, you may never know about it because _their_ case won't turn into the kind of monumental cock-up you cover. One of the reasons I'm here is because I enjoy your sense of humour, so if you want to do a light-hearted episode from time-to-time, I'll be more than happy with it, especially if I know it's for the sake of your mental health. Peace.

[@Nyctophobia4you]

Because I kept hearing you say this. You can unpick locks. You pick it one say to unlock then you rotate it back to center hopefully without it resetting. But if it resets you just pick it again and turn it to lock. Then turn it back to center. Or you just lock it before you pull the door closed behind you as you leave.

[@devlinhawkins7129]

Those little twost locks built into the handle were not as common in 90s as far as I'm aware. Even if there was one an exterior door likely had a deadbolt also which can only be locked from outside with a key

[@Nyctophobia4you]

@devlinhawkins7129 any lock that I'm aware of can be locked and unlocked with a pick and tension tool. I have personally unlocked and relocked deadbolts, turn handle knobs, and also the lockes on industrial doors without handles.

[@chasingthestorms]

The perp was IN that house. 1. That house was a maze, how did a stranger know where to take her. 2. The garrote, made out of paint supplies in that basement. HOW did a stranger know where to find the paints, and how and when did they make the garrote from the paint brushes…

[@4thtime910]

I don't find it hard to believe that a stranger found that just laying around in the basement. Maybe he got lucky? I guess he did since he's not caught yet

[@MseeBMe]

Yep, the parents were involved in a pedo ring imho.

[@chasingthestorms]

Now is any member of the family pinned for the murder. You’ll never convince me it was a stranger. The perp has, been or lived in the house. Not only that, I feel the stage mom syndrome is an issue. My daughter was in Irish Dance, those moms are damn near evil! If she was not cooperating with her mother’s agenda. I can see a stage mom like the ones I knew, go insane with anger, for bed wetting, refusal to practice…

[@myrrhsolace5875]

Someone who was NOT a stranger would have no reason to fashion an improvised garrote out of the junk that happened yo be laying around. That kind of junk is exactly what a stranger would use because it’s right there at hand, and doesn’t require any hunting around or wasted tome. A family member wouldn’t need to make a makeshift weapon out of stuff laying around.

[@dsclaiborne31]

Supposedly the Pugh lady had a key to the home. The police found the same type of tape and the same writing paper and marker as the ransom note was written on at the Pugh ladies house.

[@missilotze2985]

FYI I'd put on the fancy Christmas sweater I wore for a couple hours last night, to fly to a Christmas event the next morning. Dry cleaning is expensive and rich people don't stay that way by wasting money.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Agree especially if it's my Christmas "outfit" - we obviously still do this today but I think the "outfit" for the holiday or photos was def a 90s mom thing where often it was the SAME ONE. For YEARS lol.

[@jizy06]

Patsy was wealthy and cared a LOT about her appearance. She is not the type to wear an outfit two days in a row or leave her makeup from the night before on.

[@ad6417]

​@@jizy06 Men who analyze this case often underplay this. They failed to recognize what kind of woman Patsy really was and the impossibility of her intentionally wearing the outfit 2 days in a row. Or the impossibility of her being able to apply her full face war paint in 11 minutes. She never went to bed that night.

[@4ms301]

I worked counter media operations for Access Graphics and the Ramsey's during this time. It was a circus. Securing Mr. Ransey's work place was complicated due to it being on the 1400 block of the Pearl street mall In Boulder. Since it is attached to the neighboring buildings, we had to secure the 3rd floor roof as well due to multiple attempts by press and some disturbed individuals trying to access the building. Im glad I never had to pull counter media for rheir residence. That team recieved nothing but constant flak for doing their job. Mr. Ramsey projected a very business like manner any time our team interacted with him. Mrs. Ramsey never talked and subjectively seemed quite medicated. Haven't really thought much about this job for a while. I do feel that the investigation was poorly handled and that the anount of conflict of interest should have been enough for a venue change to a different county.

[@oougahersharr]

This is a private opinion, and not many people agree. I recall all of this as it happened. My Mom and Dad were sitting with me when we heard the news. And I wound up following the case. My Mom, as soon as she heard the first reports, said, "it was Burke and the parents are covering for him." As I have seen more, I am inclined to agree with my Mom. And not because of Burke's really creepy interview. There are tons of other things that point to him. But, we may never know unless the case takes a leap forward, whether it was Burke or not. Ad before everyone says "but he was only nine." My brother was a very violent kid. When he was angry, he put his whole fist through a glass window. One of those that are at a door, so are a bit extra thick and decorative. By the time my brother was seventeen, my mother was afraid he'd kill my dad. I, too, suffer from extreme anger and am on medicine for it (besides therapy). I have had my condition since I hit puberty. My brother since before puberty. So, we don't exonerate a nine year old for age. We need evidence for or against, not social opinion.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

💯 What nailed it for me was the Grand Jury stuff. The unbiased GJ voted unanimously to indict... it was the crooked/inept DA who absolutely refused to. He straight up LIED about it to the public AND he was BFFs with the Ramsey's lawyer. That whole fish stinks!!

[@dannywhite7786]

My god it wasn’t the 9 year old brother holy shit

[@oougahersharr]

@@dannywhite7786 Like I said, it's an opinion. Until there's more evidence or someone caves, we'll never know WHO it was. And I'll tank you to keep your language clean when replaying to me. It makes discussing things, and not jumping down each other's throats, easier. Bless your heart.

[@TheTarman]

@@dannywhite7786 and…why couldn’t it have been?

[@Nocturnalux]

I was in second grade when a slightly older kid tried to strangle me with his leg. He was known for being very violent and dangerous, had apparently already tried to drown his little sister, leading to a complete breakdown on the mother’s part. It was the grandmother who was taking care of him and she had warned the school, that did nothing. So dangerous was he that the teacher would rotate his desk mate as anyone who stayed more than a week, became a hazard.

[@thebritishbookworm2649]

This was great work. The scream heard across the street by the neighbours was due to a connected drain pipe that went across to both cellars. So the neighbour claimed that's why she heard a scream and the father up stairs didn't according to the family claims.

[@BrendaHall-f7y]

Maybe the parents did hear her scream. Their narrative again.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

The neighbour retracted that statement, I believe. She was asleep and was stirred by a scream, so it's easy to understand why she wouldn't be certain of what she heard (if she was half-asleep). I believe a neighbour also saw lights on in the middle of the night in the Ramsey house.

[@TheSnyderWeb]

That’s so creepy 😮

[@ic_caraudio]

1. I believe they said a window was broken already going into the basement? 2. Technically you can unpick a lock. You pick it while applying pressing in the lock direction vs the unlock direction. So yes you could relock a lock without a key.

[@scottcantdance804]

If it's a deadbolt, you don't even need to pick while relocking it. Deadbolts (aside from the security style deadbolts that are keyed from both sides) are designed so that the top pins remain above the shear line while it's unlocked. That's why you can lock a deadbolt from the inside without the key in the lock.

[@Itchy-eyes]

Ok, just a couple things: 1.) keys are easy to copy, ask any tweaker. And 2.) kids grow out of their clothes too quickly for them to have had useable winter clothes for the kids at the cottage. So they would have needed to have some sort of luggage for the kids.

[@lr8607]

The house being in such disarray suggests the family got interrupted by some event the night before. They were by no means ready to leave for an extended trip. Clothes are all over JonBenet's room.

[@bencarter7839]

Presents and luggage had apparently been loaded onto the plane on the 24th.

[@lr8607]

@@bencarter7839 Said who?

[@bencarter7839]

@@lr8607 I don't recall, but it makes sense to preload most luggage and the presents they were taking, right? I've watched so much content regarding this crime that I don't remember the source.

[@jimbob3255]

I'm not saying it was an intruder, but you definitely can relock a door via lockpicking it. Plus, for the unibomber case, I might be wrong, but I thought it was his brother who recognized the the handwriting and phrases used and pointed the feds in his direction.

[@RampageRich]

He recognized the phrase but handwriting was used as further evidence

[@brannkos]

Why would intruder leave that silly note?

[@jimbob3255]

@brannkos read the reply again. Said I didn't think it was the intruder theory.

[@GhostCrowBrother]

One Aiden looks like a Halfling. One looks like an Elf.

[@amandab262]

So right!!😂

[@Malenkia]

The story of your Grandfather passing, I had to laugh because it reminded me of mine. He passed away and his ashes were supposed to be brought back and mixed with my Grandmothers. Yeah, the ashes didn't make it back til we started serving food. And I had to laugh, cause it would be so him to be late, but still show up when the food comes out. 😂😂😂🥰

[@neil-nx3ei]

You’ve gotta love ditsy grandparents!! Love them!

[@mrtutrle2626]

My grandfather was also chronically late to everything. My mom always said he'd be late to his own funeral. He died and on the way to the church the hearse broke down

[@joshuabrooks4941]

Aiden you absolutely can “unpick” ( or lock) a lock with picks. It’s usually easier than unlocking for me. What gave you such a ridiculous idea.

[@Ashrubel]

The ransom note was literally made up of movie quotes. The movie Nick of Time has about 50% of the Ransom Note, word for word. The Movie Nick of Time was airing the night of the murder. Bill Cox noted having watched it.

[@MsElizabeth0424]

They had movie posters on their walls.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

Also, some of the same wording as was in the movie "Ransom"

[@orphanedhanyou]

​@@MsElizabeth0424"they have movie posters"..... they watch movies therefore they see crime movies therefore they are criminals? What?

[@anthonyfaccaro7118]

Never seen ransom, saw nick of time once and dont remember any dialog, but the phrase 'do not attempt to grow a brain'...i remember being in the movie speed. Im sure its been used in other movies, but speed is a favorite of mine, seen many times, and came out 2 yrs prior to this. People are different, but cant imagine thats a movie patsy would be interested in. John however, id think he would watch that. Assuming this is where....whoever wrote the note...they got it from, i agree with the idea they all were in on it. The whole burke did something to her, and they covered it up.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

@@anthonyfaccaro7118 Patsy wrote the note, but it's very likely John helped her with some of the wording.

[@3klamarie]

Great episode but please let your partner or guest finish speaking! We get it, you think you can solve any case ever but just focus on the topic and audience, no need to pump your own tires endlessly. You’re smart and well spoken and I enjoy the content but give your boy some respect and let him speak. Thank you.

[@gregnelson3434]

the full 911 call is very telling. starting with patsy starting to say send ambulance and then pausing and saying police. also at the end, when patsy thinks the call ended...john says "we are not talking to you" patsy says "oh jesus help me jesus" and burkes says "what did you find?"

[@oliversolar3504]

Has there been any updates to the Sebastian rogers case?

[@Taydutt13]

Is that the mentally challenged kid from Tennessee? (Sorry if mentally challenged is insensitive)

[@babygumpsh]

Please also note, the other little girl who lived close to the Ramsay's and was either in her dance classes or pagent shows. There was an intruder hiding in that house and was trying to assault the little girl and the mother woke up and scared him off.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Exactly. You can still think the Ramsey's did it but to claim "no intruder could do that" and other bs is ridiculously biased.

[@jilcooper9619]

Cigarette butts found at both crime scenes. See The Interview Room; a profiler and a detective.

[@babygumpsh]

@jilcooper9619 it was a good interview. I also heard this last year or the year prior on, 60 min Australia.

[@brannkos]

Why would intruder leave that silly note?

[@rationallyruby]

@@brannkoswhy would someone kill a child? There’s a lot of things that don’t make sense and could have several reason. There’s perpetrator could have wanted to throw the cops off, or they could have been mentally ill and deranged, someone who actually wanted money, or it could be the parents.

[@INXSFan33]

I started this podcast this morning before hitting the road to Glastonbury, Connecticut, to meet a client. I come back to my office to finish the podcast and you mention Glastonbury, Connecticut. Wow!

[@AdrianSharp-w2n]

Just because you don't joke about your cousin's dying but do about your granddad does not mean everyone is same. People handle stuff differently

[@addschaff86]

Joking and laughing while reminiscing. Burke is smiling and laughing throughout the whole interview. Like a sociopath. I’m guessing you haven’t watched it. Just offended and felt the need to comment?

[@orphanedhanyou]

​@@addschaff86no it's because it's a child that is unable to process death & the gravity of that and could very likely have a condition that makes that processing harder for him.

[@Nocturnalux]

@@addschaff86I watched it, I found it very creepy but kids can- and often are- creepy. Making light of things, even laughing, can be a way of making things not as bad, psychological. A kind of denial, if you will. Some people also laugh when extremely distressed. This has happened to me. We simply do not know what was going through this child’s head.

[@TwilightWolf2508]

One thing I've always found suspicious about the ransom note was it's location. It just seems so weird for a kidnapper to put the note on the staircase instead of somewhere like in the child's bed where they KNOW it will be found

[@martifoddrill9587]

I've followed this case for years & have learned so much by your series on this. You two have done an amazing job on this!

[@Mr_Fairdale]

Aidan, JB had marks on her neck indicating she tried to get the garrote off. That puts the sequence of the head strike and asphyxiation into question.

[@jennyray1476]

The head injury may have occurred first just knocking her out and maybe she regained consciousness while being strangled

[@deltasyn7434]

That came from Lou Smit, not the autopsy doctor. The abrasions around her neck make have come from the necklace which was tangled with the rope.

[@Mr_Fairdale]

@@deltasyn7434 nope. “Dr. Meyer also noted scratches on JonBenét’s neck that appeared to have been caused by fingernails. Investigators would suggest the little girl had struggled against the tightened noose around her neck.” (WHYD)

[@deltasyn7434]

@@Mr_Fairdale No, he didn't. That was never mentioned in the autopsy.

[@Mr_Fairdale]

@@deltasyn7434 how else do you explain the small triangle markings _mentioned in the autopsy report_ on her neck? What would that be?

[@CleoHarperReturns]

Everyone drink each time Mattis verbally runs over Aidan. Drink double every time Mattis pulls Aidan into a gotcha. The Beardless One is the most patient man I've ever seen.

[@yourmum6669]

Fr

[@yourmum6669]

Would be drunk less then 10 mins in

[@Mike-es2yg]

Their names are Longhair Aiden and Glasses Aiden.

[@CleoHarperReturns]

@@Mike-es2yg At least it's better than Aidan 1 and Aidan 2😅

[@davidbaker3859]

Cops weren't trained properly and they allowed the scene to be contaminated 🤷

[@pamelasmith6221]

That’s what the Ramseys want you to believe. Investigators weren’t able to do what they wanted because they weren’t allowed to. The Ramseys had friends in high places.

[@johnnytakisawa]

Not that early tho. The cops that first arrived on scene had no idea or orders to follow. They let the scene be contaminated. The Ramsey's didn't listen to them and did everything they were told not to like touch the body. But the cops should have secured the scene instead of letting more and more ppl in the house.

[@beccaberry3367]

Im not sure about this spiderweb theory, spiderwebs are stretchy and can absolutely remain intact if you are opening snd closing a window, especially a swinging window like in the basement. Im not sure about the one on the grates but didn't the detective in the documentary say there were weeds trapped under the grate as if it had been opened and closed recently?

[@kylejordan2654]

Window in the basement was broken. and proven to be able to get in and out of. there was incident's 1 before and 1 after the Jon bennet death that are likely linked. also there was 100s of breakins in the neighborhood in the months before. Also the cops failed this from day 1 by not inspecting the house completely. full stop. it ends with the cops failure to inspect/ search the house at the beginning.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

Fact: NOBODY came in that way.... the dust was not disturbed and the cobwebs/spider webs were still intact!

[@rationallyruby]

@@LittleBlueOwl318were they cob webs or spider webs? Do you know how fast spiders can make webs? There were no pictures taken.

[@nickgerald4359]

One hypothetical angle that is different than the already popular theories is that the Ramsey family tried to stage a kidnapping gone tragic in response to an external factor such as abuse from a third party. To me, all the things that are most suspicious and baffling are all the things the Ramsey’s did after the death of their daughter. If they were trying to purposefully hinder the investigation and cover something up, it almost seems like they were trying so hard and thinking so much, they overflowed the clever cup and ended up in the dumb cup.

[@Nightwalker-zk6ce]

This is what I think too, someone had been abusing her, injured her either enough that the parents thought it would be suspicious if they took her to a hospital or enough that it killed her, and the parents tried to cover it up because they knew who her abuser(s) was and were complicit in it

[@user-lz1up7ow8w]

Out of all the theories I’ve come across, this is the only one that connects all the dots - third-party abuse, or John himself being responsible for accidentally killing her during such an act, and then both parents covering this up. There is something VERY off about JR - evident in his interviews. He looks evil. I can’t describe it, but my intuition tells me he’s done some dark things. Can’t put my finger on it. Cold eyes.

[@mudrunner1]

John wants them to compair the DNA to available genealogy to try and find a relative. Never did he say reverse DNA test.

[@conniehogan6217]

@mudrunner1 It's called Familial DNA. I just read John's interview. That's exactly what he meant.

[@orphanedhanyou]

​@@conniehogan6217and he has brought it up in past interviews because those that work with that technology have reached out to him

[@komikbookgeek]

Just my opinion BUT. I don't see a kid with the behaviors people have described Burke having hitting their sibling that hard and immediately telling their parent. Which makes me look all kinds of ways at the household timeline.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

Yeah - I don't believe he went to them... one of them came downstairs and saw what he did.

[@komikbookgeek]

@LittleBlueOwl318 probably. That wasn't a survivable head injury either, but medics/ doctors could have given her pain medication.

[@angbaby56]

And it wouldn't be the first time he hit her with an object. A year and a half before her death, he hit her in the head with a golf club, on purpose.

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

@@angbaby56 ...and often smearing his own poop all over her room and toys. So many red flags.

[@komikbookgeek]

@angbaby56 oh that's alarming.

[@bau7417]

Regarding pet deaths: Two small family dogs. One is still with us at 17, the other passed last year at 16. While this wasnt the first pet passing I've been through, it was the first, and only, one I'd had to make "the call" on, and the first one I was present for at the vet. It sucked, and I was an emotional mess. She saw our middle school, high school, and college graduations. There's no amount of mental preparation for the grieving process, but I didnt grieve as long as I'd thought I would, because I'd had NO regrets when she passed. She went out knowing she was very, very loved, and that was our goal. That would be my advice - leave them no room for doubt when it comes to whether or not you love them.

[@Epikification]

I wasn't going to comment, but you said it again. You can unpick a lock. It's pretty much the same as picking it, you just turn it the other way.

[@brannkos]

Why would intruder leave that silly note?

[@Epikification]

@@brannkos I didn't imply that I thought the intruder theory was correct, just that he got a fact wrong.

[@OrigamiCL]

It is worth noting that police found two partially opened windows and an unlocked door in the house; definitely are avenues through which an intruder could have entered.

[@TeganWelsch-Rainek]

Yes, I’ll second that

[@evanmed301]

Honestly unlocked doors happen all the time, I’ve noticed many times in the morning that a door was left unlocked or garage left opened

[@heldinahtmlhell]

I believe the Ramseys said the home security wasn't on that night. I haven't heard whether this was the norm for them or not. It would be very suspicious if they claimed to have not put it on that night, if they usually did have it on.

[@lorimiller4301]

They almost never put the alarm on. I remember that.

[@EvanC_1988]

I just watched RANSOM and the part with the money part was exactly the ransom note from ransom

[@heldinahtmlhell]

It came out a couple of months before the murder.

[@EvanC_1988]

@ i think in November

[@shesometimeswrites]

I really love watching your streams...love the bond between the two of you. Thank you for this stream in particular. The kind way you handled the superchats where someone expressed loss, allowing yourselves to be vulnerable in sharing how taxing these topics can be, it was touching. I appreciated those moments as much as I do the analysis. What you do is valuable and in a way you are preserving history. Please keep up the great work!

[@drklynoon]

It’s probable that the killer didn’t break in. However that doesn’t mean that the killer was a member of the family or had a key given to them. The killer could have been in the house for days and slipped out in the confusion. I know that sounds crazy but not unheard of.

[@orphanedhanyou]

They even had a probably similar case nearby with another little girl that luckilyv was scared away before they took her.

[@drklynoon]

Another thing that came to mind, all doors are not necessarily dead bolt locks. Someone could leave and lock the door behind themselves without a key.

[@brannkos]

Why would intruder leave that silly note?

[@evanmed301]

It doesn’t explain the constant lying and changing of stories but Patsy and John. With something as traumatic as that you’re going to remember exactly how it went down

[@drklynoon]

@@brannkos That note is absolutely bonkers. I don’t know why a killer or the family would leave a note like that unless it was an unhinged kidnapper that lost control and killed her before they could get out of the house. I’m not suggesting it couldn’t have been the family but do suggest that a crazed stalker isn’t out of the question either.

[@ShadowMoses900]

One of the family members definitely knows something, and they're not telling.

[@ihaveanidea6930]

This case has always intrested me. I'm glad to see you covering a case like this. Would love to see you do more true crime unsolved cases.

[@StellaReardon]

I'm buying Steves book- he is a stand up, humble man. I pray he finds peace after being persecuted while and after investigating working this case.

[@brendasears9650]

What John is suggesting is genetic genealogy where they use the DNA to compare to public data bases to locate relatives to construct a family tree with common ancestors to the killer. Then the recent offspring can be built out to see if any meet the criteria of the killer, possibly including place of residence.

[@rationallyruby]

Yes. About is why it seems like a dumb idea for him to suggest this if he was the killer.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

You'd think he'd already know his own family tree.

[@brendasears9650]

@@rationallyruby his DNA is Teflon in large part because he contaminated the crime scene. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain by perpetuating the distraction.

[@rationallyruby]

@ we don’t have enough information on the dna to be able to make that statement. We do know there was dna found around the vaginal area. If that was found to be his, that would be pretty damning.

[@brendasears9650]

@@rationallyruby my understanding is that the DNA came back to an unknown male meaning it was not a family member. Maybe John planted a stranger's DNA. You're right, there is a lot we don't know.

[@ashleymorris4410]

I lost my brother when I was 10 he was 11 and he was murdered I can say I didn’t handle it the way people thought I should I only cried when I knew people thought I should I didn’t actually have any real emotions towards it at the time i still remember that day as if it was yesterday my step dad answered the phone my mom screamed bloody murder we were told to go to the room and my step sister was like I wonder what’s going on and I said Chris is dead not knowing anything I just knew and said it like it was fact and she told me no that’s not it then we were told and I was like ok no emotion nothing. Kids handle things in weird ways I watched my brothers learn their dad died at burks age one cried and showed real emotions towards one was like me and just said ok they reacted the same when our mother died a few years later kids are weird and you just can’t go by their emotions and what they are showing so I really don’t think it’s fair to use that as a reason to think burk killed her

[@orphanedhanyou]

Its an "unreal" experience. Some are feeling it in the moment & others won't for long periods. It's hard to really fathom someone is "gone" like that even as an adult.

[@ad6417]

The fact that he didn't cry has nothing to do with the evidence implicating him.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

I've only had my dog die, but I experienced the "shock" phase, of everything feeling like it's moving in slow-motion and everything feeling hyper-real.

[@3klamarie]

Wait, you’re a true crime podcast and you don’t know about the Black Dahlia? Elizabeth Short… seedy Hollywood underworld type stuff? Really? Ok…

[@TheNerdiestGeek]

They didn't start this as a true crime podcast. They started as more of a missing 411, maybe it's spooky, maybe it's not sort of thing. More "lore" and supernatural than really true crime. Also, the only reason I've even heard of the Black Dahlia is Ghost Adventures so I'm not really sure it's all that surprising that someone wouldn't have heard of it.

[@3klamarie]

@ I mean, fair enough. I’m not trying to be condescending, it’s just surprising to me. I know how they started, I’ve been listening for a long time. I come and go because of the air of arrogance sometimes.

[@Weirdoeevee]

It was seeing that interview with the female constable that made me think the police were incompetent. She wasn't all there for sure. But I'm sure the whole thing was traumatic for all first responders.

[@jilcooper9619]

None were trained as homicide detectives. See The Interview Room; a homicide detective and a profiler. Both better equipped to give opinions than either the boulder detectives or lore lodge using untrained logic.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

Most of the "experts" in the case I find utterly stupid. They can't even focus on the hard, physical evidence, which should be the core of the case. They fixate on nonsense like body language and insignificant actions of the parents after the fact. The incompetent idiot you mention thinks John is the killer because of a "feeling". The DA who "exonerated" them thinks it was an intruder because of arse-print in the carpet. A bunch of "experts" in the Netflix documentary spent half of it examining the 911 call and inventing audio which wasn't there, and wasn't important.

[@JakeFromMaine]

As a parent of a well treated 7 year old - I think you might be looking too much into the bedwetting. It's completely normal at her age that she was still wetting the bed. Doesn't mean it WASN'T a sign of something, but it's more likely than not that it was completely normal. Gotta remember the family Dr. said there was no sign of that kind of abuse.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Agree

[@lr8607]

Dollars to donuts that doctor never did a speculum exam. He was a pediatrician, yes?

[@Nocturnalux]

@@lr8607Doesn’t have to include that either. Bed wetting can be a case of the child regressing; not necessarily that penetration happened.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

I don't think the Dr ever looked for it, and was chummy with the Ramseys (like most people involved in this case were, it seems).

[@lr8607]

@@heldinahtmlhell Apparently he was one of their dozens of close friends who was called to come over and contaminate the crime scene on the morning John "found" Jon Benet. Such a great group of friends that couple had.

[@Noblemile2]

1:05:30 My great-grandmother did the same thing. Lived 92 years and left during the family reunion, which was the first time in about 6 years that the entire family was in one place. All anyone could say was "man she always had great timing..."

[@MseeBMe]

In regard to the theory you put forward around the 52:00 mark, didn’t the ligature marks on her neck reflect that she was alive when the garrotte was applied (also seem to recall there were indications that she had clawed at the garrotte)? How could that be if Burke had killed her prior to her being trussed up?

[@TheLoreLodge]

The head injury wasn’t immediately fatal

[@JamieLeach-ce1cv]

⁠​⁠@@TheLoreLodgebut the coroners conclusion was that, the head blow and the strangling were basically happening in parallel…

[@TheLoreLodge]

@ the autopsy lists both but places strangulation as the actual cause. When other physicians were asked for their opinions, they determined it was probably 45 minutes to 2 hours between the injuries.

[@TheDelorean3]

There is speculation that the triangle bruise found on JB was made from someone who grabbed and twisted her shirt and that this is when she was trying to claw at being held like that. I believe then she was hit with the flashlight and she never regained consciousness after that.

[@Sentinel29721]

A grand jury doesnt choose which charges are presented to them, they can choose not to indict on certain charges though but the attorneys decide what charges are brought for them to vote on. Also important to remember its a much lower burden on the grand jury to indict than it is for a petit jury to convict.

[@thunderstruck6647]

That and the prosecution does not have to present contrary or exculpatory evidence either.

[@Sentinel29721]

@@thunderstruck6647 Great point!

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

Here's the deal - the unbiased GJ voted unanimously to indict... it was the crooked/inept DA who absolutely refused to. He straight up LIED about it to the public AND he was BFFs with the Ramsey's lawyer. That whole fish stinks!!

[@ladylove2310]

They convened for over 13 months, and heard 30,000 pieces of evidence including going to the Ramsey’s home and the wine cellar. Several witnesses were called as well.

[@annemoore3590]

@@thunderstruck6647 Except Lou Schmidt did present a contrary theory, in a power point presentation. He was pushing the IDI angle. The Grand Jury did not accept or believe his version of events.

[@suzanne9696]

Wow your hypothesis on this case to me is spot on!!!!

[@coryl5015]

Hey, I love yalls podcast, first time commenting. I just wanted to say that locks CAN be "unpicked" aka you can unlock a lock, burglarize, then pick the lock so its locked again. All you have to do is turn the cylinder in the opposite direction as when you picked it. Now...the Ramseys had pretty good locks, but any basic residential lock is a joke to a determined pedo/ druggie or burglar. I'm def a rabid Intruder-did-it person. . I think JonBenet was the victim of a sick sick individual that was watching her at all the pageants... If it wasnt an intruder, it was Burke. The case is absolutely bizzare.

[@xSouthWindx]

This is correct (not that I am any authority on it, but I know it to be true as a hobbyist lockpicker)

[@coryl5015]

@xSouthWindx I'm a hobbyist too 😆 and same, I'm no authority. But my whole argument for lockpicking is this: who would want to enter and leave the house, make it look like a kidnapping/ create a distraction, while getting some playtime in the basement with JonBenet? A creepy voyeur that is excellent at stealth and being secretive. The case is very weird, but IMO it's never been looked at from the lens of "what if this was a pedo whose sole goal was being with JonBenet?"

[@CamoniMoMoni]

@@coryl50159.9 times out of 10 they would have abducted her from the house and taken her to another location. No intruder would spend so much time inside the house and risk being caught when they could get in and out quickly with their victim and be free to do whatever they planned completely uninterrupted. Only someone invited to the home at that time or someone living inside the home would be comfortable enough to assault and murder their victim while their parents or family members were sleeping nearby.

[@woflmanjoe642]

I try to stay open minded; but the "Burke did it and the the parents tried to cover it up" angle was the way I've tended to lean for a while. My thinking was protecting their son, moreso than the more callous "stocks will plummet" thought.....but, I've never been a millionaire. The thing that really bothers me about that, though, was the horrendous things which were done to her afterwards; but anything involving injury and murder of a child, to me, is horrendous, in and of itself. Whomever did it certainly had to be familiar with that house, though. Anyway, always great to hear your take on it. You guys are true to the investigation process. Looking forward to Friday's episode.

[@lr8607]

Both protecting the son, the family image, and the family finances, and not necessarily in that order.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

So they stumbled onto their 9 year old son, who had accidentally bludgeoned their 6 year old daughter, and decided to not render any aid of call an ambulance, but to strangle her tie her up, gag her, clean her genitals and put her in the basement, and write a ridiculous ransom note, then let Burke be interviewed by police the next day, without them present, while they refused to be interviewed? And that 9 year old boy kept quiet about his crime for the next 30 years? You think this scenario is likely? Seems utterly mental to me. The parents would have just said it was an accident, if Burke had hurt her. He's NINE. Those things happen with children. Strangling and binding your dying daughter is not a normal response to that situation.

[@samanthakey5401]

A. Burke did it in anger and his parents covered it up. B. The dad was selling her to his friends, the guy took it too far, the parents covered it up. Either way mom was in the same clothes bc she never went to bed, roo busy writing the note.

[@Schnauzerpatrol]

I’ve never understood the ransom note when the body wasn’t disposed of. Why write it and then John finds the body in the basement. And why the staging of the body. Very confusing case

[@IceFireofVoid]

Disorganized panick would be my guess. If it was someone in the family who did it on accident and the parents tried to cover it up, they may not have been aligned on what to do, or one wasn't clear about it. It's possible they thought of the kidnapping idea to cover it up, but because they were panicking, the mom called the police before dad could dispose of the body, or maybe they both didn't think about it and called the police before disposing of her because they knew they had to be at the airport and people would catch on to her not being there. And they figured they could just sneak her out later. Then when no opportunity presented itself, dad decided to "find" her in the basement.

[@heldinahtmlhell]

What other choice did they have? They killed her, they had to (desperately) make it look as if they hadn't. So they put the body in the practically the only place they could, which could, conceivably, look like they didn't know it was there (or put it there), without leaving the house. And the ransom note was, again, the only thing they could do to make it look as if someone else had been there and killed her, instead of them. Their only other option was leaving the house and disposing of the body. But that would have meant DNA in the car and, likely, witnesses. I don't think they expected to get away with it so easily. And were surprised when they did.

[@landonpeach4663]

My sister was 21 and I was 16 when she passed from cancer my family found ways to laugh a few days later talking about her as a person and things she did during her treatment. However the second her death and the night of her death was brought up the room went silent. Still to this day I get sad about it and her death is shattering. So for Burke to laugh at her death a few days later shows a lot to me.

[@komikbookgeek]

Also Adian I'm really empathetic as to how you feel about the Sebastian Rogers case. I was about your age when a missing person case that was very close to home turned out to be a murder (they at last, are still in prison) and it's a devastating blow to your faith in humanity, or at least it was in mine. And I cash hear the the hurt in your voice.

[@conniehogan6217]

I believe that Burk ACCIDENTALLY killed his sister. At that point the parents have a tough decision. They know they have lost JonBenet, so, they have to do whatever it costs to hang on to Burk. I can't imagine being faced with that situation. No one can, so, people shouldn't be too quick to judge. Thank you guys for handling this, and other stories with much eloquence and respect!

[@Mr_Fairdale]

Burke accidentally asphyxiated her? Because that's the official cause of d eath

[@laurieclarkson9180]

Most accidents are reported. If it was an accident there would be no need to be misleading about it. A kid doesn't accidentally kill his sister and then the parents say "Hey, let's make it look like someone raped her" hell no.

[@addschaff86]

@@laurieclarkson9180unless you’re worried about your child being taken which absolutely would’ve happened. And the evidence of abuse was most likely from John or Burke previously to the murder. I wish more thought would take place before commenting but such is life. 😕

[@EffiiCat]

I totally agree that it was Burke. the circumstancial evidence was so convincing. The only difference I believe is that Burke took her to the basement to ‘play’. poked her with train tracks and messed about like how a disturbed child would. Then he later went and told his parents. It then makes sense that on the first 911 call you could hear him say ‘well what did you find?’ To them, like he knew he was in trouble. You could speculate that Burke knew how to use the garotte from the Boy Scouts. it’s even possible that he was abused during his time as a scout, which was common, and so doing it to JB. It would make sense why the parents were so concerned about his behaviour- with all those behaviour books.

[@lr8607]

Burke had also taken sailing lessons. He would know basic knots.

[@lapistmacir1014]

The son is apart of that rare percentage of children born with psychopathy that didn't need much of a push to start the snowball. When I thought my brother was dead (it was a false alarm) I was screaming like bloody murder while crying. I genuinely thought I was losing my sibling. It was false alarm thank lord but still.

[@GrandpaFatmouth]

Point of fact gentlemen. You CAN actually pick a link closed. I was a locksmith. I've done it many times.

[@orphanedhanyou]

That he is using an example of losing a loved one in college vs being 10 & possibly having a condition where the kid isn't going to cope or experience emotions the same way makes no sense to me. Those traits also don't automatically mean he would be prone to killing his sister.

[@Mandarintoenail1]

Who wakes up late for a flight? The McCalisters… also Rocky Mountain Metropolitan Airport is 17 minutes from Boulder at the time I made this comment. It’s around quarter to 9pm mtn. Early morning would likely be similar. That airport may have had a different name back then

[@orphanedhanyou]

Exactly. This was also before the level of TSA screening & delays we know today.

[@TheLameFlameYT]

​@@orphanedhanyou Considering it was a private plane (or at least a chartered one), there would be no TSA or delays (except those caused by ATC) even nowadays

[@TheTrailOfDestruction]

46:40 i’ve always wondered if the act occurred in that room. No one else saw her aside from John…

[@geoffreywillars1032]

1:04:46 "I don't laugh about it". Then he IMMEDIATELY laughs about it! This is the problem second guessing behaviour in a nutshell.

[@kcjakes4259]

I literally thought the same thing. Weird !!!

[@rogerbrown3520]

As a child, death is never ever on your mind. From experience, as a young boy, and I suffered extreme trauma, and yet, each day, the sky was blue and the sun shined. Your brain protects you, when you are young. It takes the horrors and places them at the very bottom of your brain. This statement comes from experience.

[@jennyray1476]

Both parents are extremely narcissistic and perfectionist. With that combo of personality you can easily snap if your kid spills their milk. Watching that Christmas video of Patsy and the kids , I have no doubt she accidentally in anger did something that caused JB death. Narcissistic parents have no attachment to their children, no empathy or emotions. Narcissists are more worried about their appearance and status in society, they want to be seen as the victim. In watching their interviews, you never see emotions or tears from either parent, Patsy will give a sad face in order to gain sympathy but both parents are cold. People who knew them say what great parents they were, well people who knew Casey Anthony said she was a great mother. Narcissist use their children to make themselves look good.

[@Emy53]

No, there were several keys distributed to many people for various workers. I heard that a key was given to construction workers to access the house as well. There were more than 20 sets of keys for that house.

[@ladylove2310]

The number of keys they supposedly handed out increased over time.

[@falconsfamily6402]

The body was in rigor and not in the shape of a suitcase.

[@padfoot2083]

I watched the first two episodes of the Netflix documentary and immediately thought “LoreLodge is gonna have a field day picking this apart”

[@LittleBlueOwl318]

Same

[@slb159]

Not getting credit for your work isn't as bad as _someone else_ getting credit for your work. Also, getting blamed for someone else's incompetence is infuriating. Good that you're pretty much your own bosses though :)

[@happychappyy]

Another girl who attended the same danceschool and lived in the same area was similarly attacked 9 momths later

[@jacquelinejacobson6789]

Re intruder theory - why would a stranger intruder leave a ransom note on a step of the back spiral staircase? Wouldn't he want to make sure "Mr Ramsey" found the note by either taping it to the front door or leaving it spread out on the kitchen counter? The intruder would be taking a risk that Mr Ramsey would use that back staircase and not the front staircase. Also, Jonbenet's body was covered in a blanket - why would a stranger intruder killer do that??

[@orphanedhanyou]

Why would anyone be an intruder in the first place? Because they are healthy logical beings? No.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Someone would likely find the note if on a step on either stair. Also plenty of killers try to distance & hide & show a sort of "remorse" and cover their victims body.

[@brannkos]

Intruder wouldn't leave ransom note at all, why would he when she was dead and in basement...

[@GabrielTheMagolorMain]

The constant comparisons you’re making to how you would act if you were Burke are off putting. You are not him. It’s clear he has a developmental disorder, his interviews are appropriate for his age and developmental abilities. We are also looking at a small snapshot of that time, it’s cruel to assume he was never sad about losing his sister just because he didn’t express emotions in an interview with a stranger. When I lost my dad I didn’t cry for a month, doesn’t make me a monster, it also has zero relevance to Burke. Some people have defense mechanisms. It’s why judging 911 calls are dangerous. There are so many reasons why judging an interview of a child like this is wrong. Maybe you guys know a licensed psychologist or clinical social worker that can shed some light on this (not someone that took a psych class, everyone thinks they’re an expert nowadays). I can’t say if Burke did it or not, but I can’t stand when people compare their own life to someone else’s. That’s not putting yourself in someone’s shoes. To do that you have to look at the entire picture of them and their life experience, not use yours. I’m definitely a fan of you guys, which is why I must push back.

[@TheLoreLodge]

Has the exact developmental disorder ever actually been made public? Because to me it doesn’t look like autism, as many people have suggested. It looks a lot more like anti-social personality disorder, in my opinion.

[@GabrielTheMagolorMain]

⁠@@TheLoreLodgeI edited my comment before I saw your response. Was listening to the rest of your live. So please see above. There is such little information about Burke out there to even say anti social personality about a 9 year old in a foreign situation after something so traumatic as his sisters passing is irresponsible, in my opinion. If we use Occam’s Razor and the DSM dx with how much spotlight has been put on this family I think we would’ve heard more about Burke for him to fit the criteria of ASPD. As far as I know he has no criminal record. I’ve never heard of an acquaintance of his speaking out about his behavior. If he’s living a more solitary life that could be because he doesn’t trust anyone after growing up with the media, he’s autistic, or he did hurt his sister that night..maybe all three. He appears to have a social communication disorder, and that can lead people to think they don’t care, they are cold, their recall of events can come later. There could be issues with his auditory processing, which could have effected his interviews. If he’s autistic the wording of the questions could change everything. Say you ask an autistic child, “do you have any tests this week?” They might say no because they don’t, but they have a quiz. You have to ask the right questions in the right way to get all of the information. It’s hard to believe he never slipped up, he also doesn’t sound scripted. In those interviews in particular he sounds age appropriate to me for a child that needs some sort of support, what that diagnosis is exactly we can only scrutinize unless he ever discloses it. But because of the nature of the crime there is a dark cloud over a conversation that really looks typical. I would question what he knew before his interview, I haven’t read books on the case, maybe people have discussed it (if he was not involved). Did he know the horror of what happened to her, or did the parents tell him something easy for a child to digest. In all honesty, there is a part of me that hopes he did do it, because if he didn’t he has lived a life of being scrutinized because he doesn’t act the way people expected him to act, and it is most likely because he has a developmental disorder. One more random example..a few weeks after my dad passed out of the blue my son said to me “your dad is dead.” It hurt..it sounded mean, but I didn’t react that way, I just explained to him that we say pass away, that it’s much kinder, and then we talked about my dad. He didn’t mean anything by it, he was just stating a fact, he was dealing with it weeks later, and I’m glad he was in a safe place when he said it like that so he wasn’t judged. Kids are just different beings and when they have a neurological disorder you have to wipe what you see as typical and try to see it from a different lens.

[@addschaff86]

@@GabrielTheMagolorMaingive me a freakin break the kid had a history of violence with JonBenét and he was spreading his shit all over the walls in the home. To say a 9 year old isn’t capable but extremely disingenuous. You may be educated but you certainly haven’t done much research on the subject and should not preach something you haven’t looked into. Good grief you morons are exhausting with this crap.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Agree it's pretty obvious that many people are not going to cry or feel it in the moment or even long periods. That a child didn't perform "as expected" after a traumatic event is ridiculous

[@Nocturnalux]

@@TheLoreLodge”To you” is the key word here. You are not an expert and even if you were, you did not interview him in a clinical setting. Children do laugh at horrible things. Just because you didn’t, doesn’t mean anything either. Burke did not even need have any kind of developmental issue, at all. Just going through a terribly stressful period, and being a kid, can be enough to cause “odd” behavior. Doesn’t mean he did not kill his sister but harping on it does not make a case.

[@MM-pl6zi]

The original detective is convinced it was John, not Patsy. She also realized she had been the victim of SA and died from it. Turns out it was John's associates that did it at the "Christmas" party, and John and Patsy had to cover it up.

[@crakkbone]

You can definitely unpick a lock.

[@Sommyie]

Lock picking Lawyer mentioned?!

[@robothouse2243]

Yeah, lock picks in general mimic the functions of a key. I am not understanding why a lock could not be reset with picks.

[@jacquelinejacobson6789]

The time of year was important. This was Christmas, when the children were getting presents. Burke also knew that his January birthday presents were in the basement near the crime scene. Imo Burke ate a pineapple snack and got curious about his birthday presents and went down the cellar to check them out. I think Jonbenet ate some of his pineapple while he was in the cellar and followed him down there. Some of the presents there had torn wrapping on them. Jonbenet may have done that, sparking an extreme rage in Burke, who did all the acts. Possible that Jonbenet was not dying fast enough with the garotte and struggling; and Burke hit her in the head to knock her out and finish the strangulation. Eric Smith was only a few years older than Burke ( 13 vs 10) when he lured a 4 yr old into the woods and beat, sa'd and strangked him. A 10 yr old in England did the same thing. It is not impossible for a 10 yr old to do this.

[@SamlSchulze1104]

It was the case of JonB and Amber Hagerman(which happened in my home town) which set my childhood and everyone I knew traumatized of leaving their children unattended forever. Every abduction ended in murder at the time. Every child had "stranger danger" talks. As a result, parents who allow their children to walk home alone are arrested.