The Old World Is Dead: You Have Been Conditioned to Know it Too

[@TheOuterCircle]

A game is never dead so long as you play it. However, remember this, if the same people who played it before are the ones left in a years' time, playing the armies they already owned.... does that really count as having legs? Let's see what happens next year, shall we? Edit: just to reiterate a point made in the video, many of the factions are undercooked, (no characters and removed units by lazy writers) and unavailable. So why would I play this edition when I can play the last edition which had MORE stuff and everyone had full rules? Doesn't that just SCREAM bad for the health of the system?

[@f4lenwarrior]

You aren't wrong GW have always been pretty consistantly terrible. The "good old days" with 3rd Edition. Skullz, Where a codex/ rhino/ tac squad/ metal minis were all under £20 each, when they did mail order parts. Were the peak of things. They still didn't listen to player base results during world events, went after other companies legally to hinder any competition. They haven't improved they have become far more shifty and corrupt since then. If anything this isn't salt anymore its just fact that overly loyal fans can't accept. Or have, and have made the hobby their own thing, but still want to share what aspects they enjoy so much.

[@warhammer1009]

I strongly disagree we have quite a big warhammer fantasy 6 edition group here in Sydney And most of us have multiple painted armies Which already to go an all we need was based converters There seems to not be as much balance as 6 edition But for now we are committed an shirecon here in Sydney will be old world Tournament this year

[@rogaldorn8519]

@@f4lenwarriorif you think GW are “corrupt” you really a sheltered individual. Please don’t go outside! 😂

[@demonstructie]

​@@rogaldorn8519simpity simp

[@darkflame9410]

@@warhammer1009doesn’t that prove his point though? Your playgroup already had armies ready to go. So…. Your not a potential market at all, unless your all going out and buying brand new armies day of release, GW probably won’t even factor you into the equation, tournaments be damned.

[@Gorbz]

"Here is a small apple from a tree. You can look at the tree as much as you like. Give me money, and you can have another apple (of my choice) from the tree. Don't give me money, and I will not water the tree, and it will die" - James Workshop, Nottingham farmer.

[@mikesecondname]

Wow. This James guy sounds like he doesn’t like apple trees.

[@aron582railways7]

Think how many boxsets that get sent out to 'influencers' and how many of them don't do anything else with it after release

[@TheOuterCircle]

Every game dropped by GW ever.... and then ironically there is no stock for the fomo crowd because they gave a free box to some shill channel with 50 subscribers.... if you don't laugh, you'll cry.

[@rogaldorn8519]

I would guess about 200 at the most. Probably less than that. Less than a fraction of a percentage of the production run. I imagine more went in the recycling because of print defects or packing damage.

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@rogaldorn8519 yeah for sure, but we can joke about it because the flood of Old World videos with people with boxes probably has a lot to do with influencers flooding the market.

[@rogaldorn8519]

@@TheOuterCircle wait, are you mad about people getting free things or mad about other people making videos?

[@toastle8005]

@@rogaldorn8519 mad that most of the people who get sent boxes have no intention of doing anything with it, or drop it incredibly quickly, and that incredibly small channels were sent The Lion’s new model when the rest of the public had it run out in two minutes, and a lot of people missed out. So much of the very little stock they’d made was sent for promotional purposes, when they had very little to spare, but they did it anyway.

[@ScreamingTc]

GW had such faith in the Old World it released it with decades old sculpts, metal minis and a handful of new sculpts for two factions... Between that and the fact that half the factions were relegated to downloadable stat sheets, it doesn't feel you with a great deal of confidence when it comes to long term support.

[@CyrodiilCome]

Most of the PDF armies still have full lines. Most of the "supported" armies do not. Unironically you're seeing mostly PDF armies because you can get their rules free and their model range can still be bought lol.

[@andrewpavone5429]

It's even worse than that, there are no models released really. Half the minis for only 2x factions

[@retardedfishfrogs1]

Not to mention core units for the two released factions are relegated to the big boxes. I genuinely can't imagine who is getting into this game without already being a player during 8th ed Fantasy.

[@ja37d-34]

Nothing wrong with those old sculpt with actual choices how you assemble them.. I can´t stand the new AoS shit with too much details and monopose. No thanks.

[@CyrodiilCome]

I went to the old world release in my area and I expected it to be mostly older guys and I being the youngest. It was actually like a good 70% young folk who "Learned about it from total war" with a few old men curiously watching "young" men play the game. I think there is a genuine interest in the setting. But I'm well aware one case in my area may not be the norm.

[@dakotaa7535]

That's my experience, as well. Most of the old school vets have moved on to other game systems. There are a few genuinely curious, but for the most part, it's younger folks and people who never got the chance to play WHFB.

[@cerohero1]

That's about how it is in my area too, hopefully it keeps up

[@mariusloesch820]

Interest in the setting is there I think, but are people consoomer enough to stick with the current GW? I dunno man ...

[@khelom]

What a weird Time we are living in Customers know far more thé lore and thé universe than thé companies who sell the products Companies hate thé productions, and tend to destroy it by all means GW is following thé same pattern than Disney, LucasFilm, so much videogames companies, ... So bizarre Anyway, cheers from France

[@Marlena_M]

Imagine a new player entering a store, says he wants to play the tabletop because he's a fan of Total War Warhammer. His favourite army is Wood Elves (or God forbid Chaos Dwarves), the store has to basically sell him a no, or directs him to Age of Sigmar; 'Just get these elves and put them on square bases kek.' Nevermind the cost of it all. The products are not widely available and what there is is old models and a lot of resin and metal stuff. That's not very appealing to a newcomer. So Old World is more for the veteran players who just want to play fantasy battles again. Which is fine, but will it be enough to make it a sustainable brand (and of course will GW update it regularly?).

[@ja37d-34]

There won´t be amny comong from Total War.. They play the computer game, they are generally not hobbyists. And it is not really the target audience.

[@Marlena_M]

@ja37d-34 eh why wouldn't somebody who plays the video game get interested in the table top game? The games are marketing for the brand. This may be anecdotal but I know a few people who played the Dawn of War games first and then ended up playing Warhammer 40k because through the game they got interested in the hobby.

[@ja37d-34]

@@Marlena_M it happens but it is not the main audience. They won´t drop their games and go full 100% hobbyists.

[@Xii.legionary]

Buy 3rd party minis, pirate the books. Sorted

[@tylerghersinich576]

Not even the books the new book for the knights of bretonnia got a lot of lore wrong and the main character is just a Mary sue

[@markwatson8714]

If I'm already buying third party miniatures why would I bother pirating a DoA GW game rather than just playing said third party's fantasy rank and flank game? Particularly given most third parties give the rules away for free to begin with.

[@Xii.legionary]

​@markwatson8714 it's not like you paid for it 🤷‍♂️

[@McBurnside6380]

Exactly. 3D print everything.

[@ricktoriousgamer]

3d printed 3 armies since release; orcs and gobbos for myself, Tomb Kings as a commission and Dwarves. A Bretonnian army is next in the queue. It's up to the community to continue to keep Fantasy alive as before. I don't need or want to be drip fed from the GW teat; I'm encouraging others to interalize this idea as well.

[@toastle8005]

🫡

[@demonstructie]

Right on Macca don't let people forget what was done to us during the whole соvіd debacle

[@toastle8005]

No, give me stimmy checks straight off the printers, I’m sure that won’t come around to bite me in the future when my money is devalued by more than the stimulus check ever gave me…

[@maxmagnus3793]

I'm one of the slower moving hobbyists out there. It's been 1 1/2 years or so since Horus Heresy re-launched and I am just now finishing my first 1000 pts fully painted (the next 1000 is already on the way ofc). Seems like it's really difficult to maintain hype and attention around such a smaller game system long enough for it to become self sustaining. Especially if it needs as many models to play as Heresy or Old World does

[@einrauser6103]

I think GW is missing the mark in Heresy by not having some more Xenos factions at play. They don't even need to release new models. Just drop a War of the Beast book with rules for orks and watch the surge happen.

[@darko-man8549]

I don’t get the “No AoS-TOW crossover” - does GW think it will confuse people? The same way they thought army building was confusing people in 40k?

[@LordMacragge31]

I think the old world team don't want sales for their game being conflated with sales for AoS

[@darkflame9410]

It’s probably a similar case as to HH vs 40K. There, HH keeps xenos factions out to differentiate from 40K, and the 40K team relegated all the plastic HH kits to legends because they don’t like the HH team “stepping on their toes”. Probably similar situation applies to the OW team vs AoS.

[@willnox1]

40k used to be the most simple way of building a list..the old Force org chart was perfect....its baffling that they dropped it.

[@darko-man8549]

@@darkflame9410 f-ing company politics. The decision of GW to make all Forgeworld mods Legends, especially after having just sold the Leviathan as “usuble in 40k” still makes me feel a seething bitterness towards them

[@darko-man8549]

@@willnox1 “but points are so confusing, having weapons with points values requires basic maths”

[@IVIaskerade]

I don't really care if it's dead, as long as GW will make models that can be used in 6th, 7th, and 8th.

[@scepteredisle]

OMG CHANCE has delivered onto me this video mere seconds before its commencement! Praise Sigmar!

[@superork26]

I hope that the existing player base that was spread out over multiple editions and fan editions is enough to keep support for the game up. And it does seem like most people have united under the old world, so im hopefull.

[@liammorgan1413]

The Old World is indeed rather uncooked for sure. GW had the nerve to arbitrate that a good chunk of the classic factions with pre-existing model support via AoS transplant will be relegated to Legacies, and then turn around and only release two of the 9 model ranges for the officially supported factions. As for the others, Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen are probably the only other two official factions with at least nearly full model support at this point. Dwarfs and Orcs & Goblins are both "playable" with what's available but are missing quite a bit of their old ranges, Empire is missing all of their required non-hero units, Wood Elves just have trees available to them at the moment, and High Elves have nothing available to them. On top of it all, this is also depending on prospective players sourcing square bases since GW is perpetually out of stock as usual. As a result, the game does seem to give off the impression that it's squarely rigged to appease legacy Bretonnian and Tomb Kings players whose ranges got squatted the last time around at the expense of all else. Time will tell if and how GW will go about re-releasing the rest of the relevant fantasy ranges though.

[@valheffelfinger6521]

Whether it's legacy factions or old models ... It's up to communities and community leaders to take what we've got and run with it. We're seeing tons of new players over on Square Based and will be doing what we can to keep the enthusiasm alive. If we'd all just taken what we got, Fantasy, 40K, AoS, and Blood Bowl would have all died. Instead the community refused and the tail wagged the dog. Is Old World my dream rerelease for fantasy? No. But there's enough going on here to be sure that there are major champions for the game on the inside. If we're major champions out here in the real world, the game will not only survive but thrive. All Warhammer is dumb and has a vertical learning curve to get into. The way we get through it is by working together and building up the player base. And that's what's happening. You can join in whenever you like 😉

[@bennconner1195]

It’s still doing well despite this.

[@bennconner1195]

The geeks that buy up most of the new releases and add them to their pile of shame are the problem.

[@someguy4405]

Proudly haven't bought a GW product in several years.

[@darko-man8549]

I’m only here for TK models that aren’t eBay prices. That’s the only support TOW gets

[@jellydamgood]

Well, I think James is aware of that too since they made the executive decision of only releasing half the armies.

[@acidnine3692]

You know what? I am happy for these 'all at once' releases. a lot easier to 3d print for armies when they are all there, like this one and legion imperialis

[@DANGRON8]

Regarding how to people get into this game? I think in a similar way they get into Heresy, via the mainline games. Get into 40k or AoS, get older, get annoyed at the grimderp slop, go play heresy or old world. Right now is kind of exciting, the company is doing a bad job at capitalising on the demand for product but that opens the door to creativity in the community. Assembling an army through Kitbashes, third party ranges, 3d printing, ebay has become part of the hobby experience, the company is not involved in it, its a lot of fun. Sure, Timmy isn't going to be able to get into the game with his pocket money but his dad (who played fantasy until 2002 and old world on his PC) is!

[@alexneal9534]

It's a weird one as you can buy legacy armies, except toothy dwarves, but not the "supported" ones. Net result in my area is new players buying a book and a heap of non gw models.

[@diegocamacho6477]

I think the rivalry between GW and what was once Forgeworld is damaging to Old World's future. Lizardmen, Ogres and Vampire Counts could be main factions in the game with their new models from AOS.

[@Cynidecia]

I'll still be building an army, And if i can't play it in old world? Ill still play it in 6th or 9th age or others.

[@DasUnbekannte]

Im mostly a historical gamer. I guess all the systems I play could be classified as dead given they get very small support and they have never drawn huge communities. I dont play anything related to GW but I will play old world and if we get a community of 6 to 10 regular players at my store, I will be fine. I dont plan to play the game every week after all. I like variety. GW gamers are used to believe games are alive only if GW releases kits every god damn sunday. I dont.

[@bulbainquisition9590]

Sadly, you are probably right. If the old world fails, it's because they did not correctly use Total War to sell it. They have three good video games to sell a ton of new people, a whole IP with characters and armies, and they decide to get rid of all of that to sell want? Personally, I have always been a 40k fan and have a small IG army and a couple of kill teams, but I was looking forward to FB because of TW, and they just decided to do this. It's sad.

[@DerajNitram]

100% agree. The people playing in my local area all have pre-existing armies, mostly "legacy" factions - very little new stock purchased. Our LGS decided that legacy factions would not be allowed in their events and the 20 or so people who wete interested in the game all cancelled their orders through the store and now play at eachother's houses regularly - we even downloaded the rules YARR HAR FIDDLE TEE DEE

[@WindlordRyu]

People actually bought into Legions Imperialis? I don't think I've seen anyone play it at the local store ever.

[@colinmack8655]

Why be in the old world when the new World of Pannithor and Kings of war exists. I think your right the groups are too fractured and there is serious competition for the old world due to Kings of War, ASOIAF, Conquest last argument of kings, Oathmark. All of these are good games supported. This means they don’t have the share and market place.

[@athel06]

I’d imagine that KoW made gw sit up and feel the need to launch something in that space to keep people in the warhammer eco-system

[@khamul64]

KoW is THE GOAT with its miniature agnostic approach

[@Tulkash01]

At the moment the Old World is undoubtedly a huge success: not only did the dedicated stuff go sold out almost immediately, there are lines of AoS being plundered by Old World players looking for a refresh of their army, with stuff that didn’t sell (say: beastmen) going sold out as well. The legacy factions not being supported is, at the moment, a minor issue: their lists seem to be at least as good as most of the “supported” ones and 99% of non GW tournaments allow them anyway. The real issue with the old world is how much support the game as a whole will get in the future. There’s really a lot of people willing to spend money on this game (for example , the opening day at WH world was HUGE and apparently unexpected by GW,), but GW, partly due to internal studio politics doesn’t seem to keen to recognize that fact. In the end the game will be successful or not depending on GW support and their track record is not exactly spotless on this regard

[@Catalyst767]

I'm a new player, recently started collecting AoS after getting hooked from Total War. I was really excited when they announced the Old World because it was the world I had grown to love. But i'm underwhelmed.. they've changed the setting so I don't know any of the characters and then just released a bunch of old minis. I think they should have started with a new army like Kislev or Cathay with exciting modern units that both new players and returning players would love to collect because they're new. Couple that with the fact that most of the units are out of stock almost all of the time online and it really dissuades me from wanting to start collecting either of these two armies. It's a massive investment to decide to collect a new army in money and time so I won't collect anything from the Old World until I see an army I like and know that they'll keep supporting it... there are lots of factions I would love to collect, but not these two they've chosen.

[@robertlamborn7518]

I think that The Olde World is a limited game like Aeronautica. Aeronautica lasted about 5 years with an extra 1-2 year bonus from COVID19 and Geedubs did not release all the 40k faction for the game just 5. The Olde World factions has not been fully supported with many moved to the Legends rubbish heap. ''Walk in, spend your $$ and f*ck off'' has been a long long standing policy of GeeDubs.

[@abcdef-hb4dy]

maybe its a good thing if GW looses interest ... no power creep, no early / unnecessary re-realease of the rules... just a pretty solid rule set which WH Fantasy fans can get on board with

[@CyrodiilCome]

I mostly see the PDF armies, because mostly the PDF armies all have their model ranges in AoS so they're easier to get than the "supported" ones lol. (Not Chaos Dwarfs Though)

[@TheOuterCircle]

Let's see you rank up the Lizardmen with those dynamic big new sculpts. Just because part of the range exists......

[@DarkKnightCuron]

@@TheOuterCircle That's my current struggle. They made the new sculpts for 32mm round bases, but the Old World wants them on 30mm square bases. This is going to be a nightmare.

[@CyrodiilCome]

@@TheOuterCircle with the really big bases they're on its not that hard

[@dakotaa7535]

@TheOuterCircle They're on 30mm bases now. It's not too difficult to get them ranked up now. Even black orcs, which were notoriously horrible to rank up in WHFB (when they were on 25mm) are now manageable. The base size increase is probably one of the best quality of life improvement the game has done so far.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

@@DarkKnightCuron : That's one advantage of the much maligned square base, 30mm square, 42mm of space to fit the feet. Of course the models will still smack into each other because they've got even bigger poses, new edition, same old problem.

[@Frostea]

True and real. Old World has a ton of potential because the gameplay is utterly different from anything else that GW sells, and I believe it is quite cleverly balanced. But where are the models?? I ain't buying 30 y.o. models, and the many AOS models that can be used are largely a part of the legacy PDF? How are we suppose to understand that as? I believe they should do a "relaunch" of sorts when they are fully ready to deal with the logistics of producing more new models in larger quantities like with Horus Heresy. Maybe it would be like AOS where the first edition are pretty garbage, but 2nd edition got a lot better.

[@Raygun9000]

Which army is unavailable to buy? Most of it is available through AOS (cities of sigmar).

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@Raygun9000Lizardmen, Wood Elves, Chorfs at least.

[@Raygun9000]

@@TheOuterCircle the complete Lizardmen range is available. Much of the wood elves (the missing bits will be released through old world). Dwarves have much of their range in cities of sigmar.

[@TheOuterCircle]

Complete lizardmen? Oh no it's not, and you would have to spend hundreds on the new sculpts ($400 for two units of saurus warriors?!) Dwarfs and Chorfs are not the same thing... As for the Wood Elves, yes, they MAY come down the line, but doesn't that prove my point that the system is being handicapped from the get go?

[@Raygun9000]

@@TheOuterCircle what's missing from lizardmen? Skink with cloak of feathers or some such? I thought Chorfs was a spelling mistake. 😄

[@mtgmac1]

And all this is by design. My theory about that is that GW wants to slowly back out of miniatures by the end of like... 2030? 2040? I'm only looking at what they are doing - promoting their IP, not their games. Merch is given as much space as new models on warcom. I'm guessing they are HEAVILY banking on the Cavill movie popping off because if it does, it's the mainstream launch they've been creaming their pants about for years.

[@TheOuterCircle]

A relationship that HE cultivated, not the other way around... if it wasn't for him being proactive, they wouldn't have been.

[@mtgmac1]

@@TheOuterCircle obviously! They woudln't move a finger to build a thing like that. They can only pounce on the occasion, being the opportunists they are.

[@krilc]

Oh man pray to Tzeentch the fucking movie flops, we do not want celeb ties in involved with our wargaming, the second warhammer just becomes cringy Marvel tier movies and netflix shit it's over

[@TheCreepyLantern]

i have a skaven army from before fucking end times. and as a result Old Worldfeels like a slap in the face not something to get hype for

[@theemissary1313]

My two pence is it's a nostalgia trip for the veteran players and for newer players to see what the hype was about.

[@LordMacragge31]

Tbh the few new kits doesn't bother me, neither does special characters. I want to play rank and flank warhammer fantasy with the old models that I love. I'm thankful that the game looks like it did when it died

[@sleeplepeople7313]

None of its conducive to a glowing system. BUT - Total war warhammer exists. It’s created a HUGE amount of interest. Old world outsold the Sigmar 3rd release by 20 times! They’ll pivot to old world. Sigmar is effectively dead.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I'd love to agree, but if you can't buy nor play most factions.... well, seems to me like the video game fans likely wouldn't like that....

[@jaredkirkland1858]

@@TheOuterCircle two players in my area wanted to play wood elves. Could not find a kit if they had a gun to their heads. When they got to see others get to play with their own armies it turned them off the game completely. Waiting patiently for releases kills new players interest entirely. As you often point out in your heresy release videos, no one’s immortal.

[@sleeplepeople7313]

@@TheOuterCircle oh for certain. No argument there whatsoever. I just think that the patience for armies will be higher than niche within a niche events like HH. Heresy has been crushed by a lack of support. Utterly. Criminally. Again, you may be utterly right. I think they’ll up production and slide out AoS. Sales this good? It’s hard to argue with. Even for the incompetents in the ivory tower.

[@darkflame9410]

⁠@@sleeplepeople7313I wouldn’t call AoS dead, it’s still their second highest selling line overall (30% of total profits in 2023% to 40K’s roughly 60%). Sure, Old World release outsold 2e’s release. And Age of Darkness, if I recall correctly, outsold Indomitus. But here’s the kicker, 3e sold poorly in part due to the sins of 2e, and 3e overall has been generally hailed as a much desired improvement to the game by the AoS community (so much so that GW has been trying to shift the elements that players really like over to 40K, with mixed results as we see in 10th edition). You also keep touting launch sales but remember, GW’s current philosophy is Never Take Risks, Never Overinvest. What did they do with that surge of funding and popularity during Covid? Nothing, they went with the standard order of operations, rode out the storm (even as shortages became and continue to be a problem) and now where many other games that overinvested are starting to dry up since people no longer have the free time on their hands for those Covid hobbies, they’ve pretty much emerged completely unchanged.

[@LordMacragge31]

how do you know it outsold by 20 times?

[@amg5787]

Was thinking maybe I’d get into the old world as I never fully got into fantasy but, then I saw the prices, me needing multiple books, then, the armies my friend wants to play isn’t supported (Lizardman exactly because of Total War) and my group probably wouldn’t want to or could buy into it, makes me want to play an older edition of Fantasy, and go to recast or 3rd party for the miniatures.

[@mattwalker819]

Mantic Goblins are my Old World Army :D

[@Kharmazov]

Honestly the main positive thing is factions like tomb Kings and Bretonia getting back their models as many other factions simply got fully ported to AoS. Basically people ill be still playing 8th ed wfb as they had before but with a steady source f models for all faction. Personally I am looking forward to a potential release of old BFG models as my entire Chaos fleet got lost in the warp at the friends parents house.

[@Basscannon90]

I think you hit the nail on the head mate. I was interested in TOW at one point, then I saw the starter army boxsets being like 99% 20+ year old minis (not a fan of the old sculpts personally). At first I was thinking ok, old sculpts, that's fine, what's the price... and here in AU at least they're charging $490 for TK and $435 for Brets. Absolutely ridiculous. People can try to justify that price all they want re. "inflation", but at the end of the day, you're paying 2024 prices for 2003 models (or 1993 in the case of some of the TK). Models that were cutting edge back then, but now look horrific imo next to newer models (e.g. absolute dogshit mould lines, flimsy/fragile make etc.). For $490 bucks I can basically start a completely new army in 40k or AoS (see battleforce boxes), with brand new models, and get the respective battletome/codex. I honestly don't know what GW were thinking with this. The launch boxes killed my hype for the game, and no one in my local scene is buying. Like you said, I only know of a few guys who already had WHFB armies that are going to play, not new guys dipping into TK or Brets. This sucks because I want TOW to be successful, I think it's a cool game with a good ruleset, but the barrier to entry is just too much for me personally, and I don't fancy rebasing any of my AoS minis for a half-baked legacy pdf army either. We'll see in a years time. If the local scene is healthy, might be worth getting into, but right now, seems like a FOMO marketing gimmick imo.

[@JimThomson-sf8eh]

As a Lizard’s player from WHFB agree… Don’t play AOS so if they supported they’d at least get a bunch of new sales from me. Instead I’ll probably try the rules with my old minis, that’s about it.

[@LiliaArmoury]

ten years ago i could get 2 cadian squads for 100 (and before that I could get 40 for 100 back when the cadian plastics were released) now i can only get 1 box of cadians (i also used to be able to buy 14 dollar blister boxes prior to 2020 that allowed my to build the majority of a pre 8th infantry platoon for around 300 aud. now infantry platoons have been gutted utterly going from what was a 5 options thing down to a 3 options thing

[@itsallfunandgames723]

This take reminds me of when I was in college and had one friend group who was into the local music scene, and I had another friend outside of all of that who just listened to Top 40 pop music, and once asked, "Why do those local bands even bother, none of them are going to make it." That's Macca here, he's a top of the charts 40K/30K fan who just wants the latest singles from big record labels. Doesn't see the point of even gaming if that's not what it's all leading to. So the prediction is basically meaningless because it's so far removed from the reality of the gamers who will actually play the game and what the game is meant to be. Yes GW sucks, they're overpriced, they have stock issues that ruin things for their games sometimes, but no TOW isn't dead on arrival. For anybody who's ever played something besides GW games (like a historical game where the company doesn't hype new releases for it every week, forget new models, they don't even make models!!!), I think TOW will be fine and quite alive for years to come.

[@urthofthenewsun8465]

I would like to try The Old World or Fantasy, but the majority of my Bretonnia army is made up of mid 90s Perry metal sculpts. In fact, I just bulked it out with some Hundred Year War models from Foundry Miniatures. I doubt my forces would be allowed within a mile of a Games Workshop store! I don’t know why, but something about those old metal miniature captures my imagination more than the new stuff GW is creating for The Old World.

[@hammerheart8040]

So far old world has gone pretty well in my group but with the exception of me everyone else only has to buy a book and some round base to square formation Movement trays , the group I was playing sigmar with comprised of warriors of chaos, city’s of sigmar prior to the reboot of the faction, beast men, and lizard men , I already play lion rampant and mordheim so I had most of a bretonnian exile army out of the box but I know well my group is the exception not the norm

[@vernonator1935]

my group has 3d printed every army they have for this, only buying the books. I'm doing skaven using mainly prints. This bars us from any GW sponsored event, or events like adepticon which very specifically say that you should have mostly GW models. (based off of their rules for 40k and sigmar) there's also a rumor that skaven are going to get a sigmar refresh, which im sure won't be compatible with old world, and will all be sculpts that cant fit into ranks

[@lukebaird8643]

I was pessimistic before, and that hasn't really changed-my CDs will be going on Ebay-but I don't think you are giving future releases enough credit, there will be more than the Heresy gets, as the factions come out. I think two years for that shine to wear off.

[@jj_see_film]

Seems fine to me

[@pitbuell7959]

...for me, this is in a really weird spot personally. I feel the desire to recreate parts of the dwarven Army I collected in the 90s and started this hobby for me (early teens?, played Warhammer fantasy, 2nd ed. 40k onwards to 3.5, Bloodbowl, Battletech and then finally Heresy exploded with Zone Mortalis later on). I used to run my pocket money (allowance?) to the local gamestores (pre-GW stores creeping up and running the role playing and miniature stores into the ground) and pick up blisters with 3-4 metal miniatures to bulk out the squads... Anyway, now it would just be reminiscing on childhood memories, modeling and painting up a small fraction of 'back in the day' and relegating it to a spot in a glas cabinet (very unlikely I'd play the game) and that seems like a bad spot to apply funds.

[@cerohero1]

Definitely interested to see how this does in my area, got tons of interest and ppl showing up right now but who knows in a year

[@garfieldv2]

If I can't play 3rd Ed, then I play OPR. I stopped at 5th Ed around '99 when 6th was being spoken of. I saw how the business practise was going...

[@andrewmcnally5013]

There was hype in the online Skaven community. It all died when the "Legacies" lists got announced, or as I like to call them, the Token Gesture PDF's. I have a large collection of Daemons. Can't use them either. Looks like Skarbrand and Kairos Fateweaver are gonna stay on the shelf. Speaking of Skarbrand, he's in Total Warhammer. Same with Ikit Claw, Malekith and Morathi. Don't even recall if Karl Franz is in there with the Empire.

[@judgecohen1373]

Good analysis. Unlike HH, when WHFB was dropped they made efforts to kill it to replace with AOS to the point of suggesting you rebase your models completely while “unsupporting” many factions. Sadly, I also hope this release teaches them a lesson about predation but am pragmatic enough to know that it likely won’t. You can see a similar but different situation in MESBG which was a rager “third main” for 20 years and now languishes with promises of “big things” while receiving the odd Forge World release or a static diorama (Get off the road). I play that game and have a couple finished armies but I don’t know of its time will come again.

[@judgecohen1373]

I passed on TOW as Skaven aren’t supported even though I have a good sized Warmaster Tomb Kings army painted in my cabinet. Im not paying hundreds of dollars for plastic skeletons from the 90s that I could have gotten for pennies in a discount bin months before. Had they added in the missing units like the Hierotitan and giant Scarab beetle from the Monstrous Compendium which were never produced instead of the Crocodragon I might have had more interest. Alas, unlikely.

[@calumdeighton]

I'm certainly looking at my stuff and wondering how much I'm going to have left once I've sold everything I don't need/use. I'm also thinking charging 2010's prices for everything. I want to have fun, not suffer.

[@Marinealver]

Garbage Wreckshop is determined to DESTROY its own franchises.

[@Lupercal6319]

They definitely court pile of shame collectors as the ideal customer. In fact if you're not so irresponsible you financially jeapordize yourself its almost a functional symbiosis(not really, but superficially it can feel that way). I don't really have a big enough gaming venue locally for playing the game to feel worth the hassle, but I still like the idea of collecting and painting armies. In this context its very easy to buy a (for games workshop) great deal like Leviathan and feel like you've got the cores of two whole cool armies. You don't care about which units are good in game, they tend to all look cool. You can get like Leviathan, maybe a few months later you stumble on the old pre Leviathan Tyranid combat patrol that was a good deal, or maybe get that Christmas set they put out, and congratulations you have thousands of points of tyranids. You might never actually paint them, maybe you'll paint a few squads. You'll never take up room in a warhammer store. Ideal customer.

[@Thee_Lord_of_Darkness]

I will have to admit I was a bit hyped when I heard they were bring back old world but when I heard they are only doing limited factions I thought f that, I played High Elves and Chaos Warriors in the older 4th and 5th ed of Fantasy but sold them before I heard about the old world. I was wanting to play Lizardmen but I am out completely I would rather now print and play older ed's of Fantasy at least I know the rule books are all there. It feels like GW is run by people with ADHD no sooner than they do something they need to move onto the next project.

[@Corvinuswargaming1444]

GW clearly did not think The Old World through as a product in the existing miniatures landscape. There is a fairly active scene playing either old editions of WHFB or Ninth Age, plus other games like Kings of War and Oathmark. The Warhammer Fantasy brand and identity is strong, but what TOW offering now over those other game systems? The market is not as it was right after the company killed Warhammer Fantasy Battle as other competitors have emerged. There is also the factor of the audience that GW caters to now is not the kind that will make a sustained investment beyond initial hype of building and playing large rank and file armies. The factor of people having much less money is also a major oversight of GW. If the Old World came out with entirely new models at its current price point, that would be logical but they are mainly rereleasing old kits. A better strategy would have been to price the older kits at a discount and then have the new characters or units in line with the standard GW pricing.

[@jaredkirkland1858]

Funnily enough I’ve made a similar argument to my play group of giving 8th edition a chance. With zero characters and bare bones fluff related rules the games of old world I’ve played felt more rudimentary. Whether or not that’s a pro or con is up to you to decide

[@nestorvetumbra]

I believe that part of The Old World problems depend on conscious decisions by certain sectors within GW. If one compares the information from the first WHC posts about the game, the later contradictory posts and what appears written in the books it is clear that originally the project was much more ambitious and intended to expand the setting instead of recreating just a few factions. The problems began when mainline GW began to get its hands on the territory of the Specialist Games (FW) studio, either because they wanted part of the credit for the return of a setting much loved by fans or because they were afraid that it would overshadow the tasteless modern Warhammer.

[@markwatson8714]

I'm guessing they weren't hugely confident in bringing it back to begin with, and once they saw costs starting to rise during the pandemic started cutting the budget and scaling back to minimise the risk - probably to the point that what they've released is whatever they thought was the minimum viable product they could get away with.

[@warpaintjj]

If you think game support is what 40k gets you can keep it. Constant updates, buffs & nerfs, superseded book upon book, constantly changing meta - not for me. My faction is legacy only, fine with that, bought all the models I need just fine. I have perfectly functioning financial control thanks, 56 years old, managing director. I’m off to enjoy playing TOW like all the games we play, with my mates & local events, enjoying myself & being happy. Hope you find a glimmer of sunshine in the hobby 🌞

[@nicsnavely1277]

Is Cat going to do a video explaining his side?

[@vojtaxxxxxxx]

So far what i've seen the game in term of rules quality is really good. Problem is, there are actually armies i'd like to collect, but the thing is the cost of the new army would to way too high to get an actual army. Problem two, i could get only a small percentage of the models, that is if i were going to buy from GW and not 3rd party. And

[@Raygun9000]

I think you're unaware of the huge range of miniatures that are available from the age of sigmar range that are completely compatible (even the round bases work on movement trays because of the bigger square base sizes). Keep in mind many of the Warhammer fantasy models were just ported over to AOS. There is nothing stopping you from using your AOS army in fantasy if it has the rules.

[@TheOuterCircle]

True, I agree, but if you play, say, lizardmen, you have to pay $100 for 10 Saurus and you want probably 40 in your army. So that's $400 for that one unit and that's before any basing considerations or the like. Wood Elves? Yeah, no. Dark Elves? Well, parts of them for sure! Chorfs? lul I am definitely aware, but let's be realistic here with what units are available and what the cost would be, which is prohibitive to entry.

[@darkflame9410]

@@TheOuterCircleironically, the best army for this may just be Vampire Counts, since skeletons and zombies are cheap and plentiful, and most their old world units are still in their AoS roster with updated sculpts. Overall still agree with you though.

[@XX-jn8co]

That's kind of where I am with it, I thought about a Wood Elves army because I always wanted one back in the day but frankly I don't have time between my various Heresy projects and, honestly, I don't see this game having legs long term. I think in a lot of ways GW was right to kill WHFB off first time and I think, given how no games of this have fired off at any of the game shops I have on Discord, that there probably isn't a market for it any more. Getting people to try Kings of War was downright impossible and KoW didn't even have the cost factor putting people off, I simply don't know many wargamers with the follow through to paint a full rank and flank army. Sure people will buy the launch boxes but will they be playing it in a year? Two years? We get a super active Horus Heresy community at my local shop and sporadic games at others in my area but I've not seen anyone play ToW or even latter WHFB editions in years. Even with proper marketing I think the game's just a dead duck that GW only released because it was easy to and because they did that thing they do, where they saw another company selling a game that wasn't them and panicked. For what it's worth though, HH2 was the impetus I needed to finally build my first Heresy army. That and the number of newer players I've seen at my local shop makes me feel that, unless we're a weird exception, GW did something very right with Horus Heresy.

[@tervindar507]

If every product that GW is terrible and subpar, why even cover it? I’m all for criticism but it seems that its for everything. It’s obviously clear that they won’t change their business practices.

[@seamasdevoy6830]

I think any declarations of TOW being dead are premature to say the least, and mostly relies on falacious logic. The argument that 'there aren't enough factions' ignores the comparision to the initial launches of Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and the Horus Heresy. Necromunda launched with three gangs available and nothing else, the same with Blood Bowl, that had three teams at launch and nothing else. Comparing it to Horus Heresy 2nd ed is comparing apples to oranges, HH had been supported with new models and rules for the past decade before 2nd ed dropped. Look at the initial launch of 1st, everything was expensive forge world resin and there was only a few kits available. The same goes for the supposed lack of unit diversity in armies. During the whole of warhammer fantasy, there wasn't an army that had even close to 66 units in its roster, and one of the most popular iterations of oldhammer that people play is 6th ed, which has a similar roster size to TOW, so I don't think that's a turn off to the target demographic. Further, aside from special characters and the odd unit like the chaos warshrine and the empire wizard stuff, most armies have access to basically the whole 8th ed roster. And you can still create armies that play quite differently because of the level of unit customisation and things like buying special rules like ambush or skirmish mean that there are many ways you can play the same models. On the point of perceived lack of support, this breaks down in to two points. The first part is rules support, and the lack of regular packs that shift the meta around, faqs and errata. To be honest this is kind of a silly concern to have. I'm quite happy not having the meta shift around constantly because it means that I don't have to keep rebuilding my army to suit whatever playstyle is in vogue. As for eratta and faqs, while it might be a tad inconvenient but it's ultimately not a dealbreaker. I can remember when we didn't get any clarification from GW on rules, and anything players were unclear about had to be settled by players deciding on a reasonable way to resolve it. The second part of this is that it's mostly old models. This also isn't a big deals. The old models are better than the new ones because, despite being less detailed, they are easier and quicker to build, convert, and paint. I used to do warhammer when I was in school, and had ample free time. Now I'm an adult and have markedly less time to myself. As such, I prefer models that don't have massively complex instructions and tonnes of detail that needs picking out. It means I can reliably churn out units in a week or two rather than in a month or two like I was with AoS. On the point about if its not going to have full support, why not play older editions? This is kind of strange logic. Say what you like about the level of support for TOW from GW, there is at least some support, whereas the older editions have no support at all. So if you don't want to play a system with low support, why would you switch to a game that has even less support? It's like saying I don't like this restaurant because it only has one vegetarian option so I'm going to go eat at the steakhouse that doesn't have any vegetarian options. As for the general point about GW's fomo marketing scheme, yeah I'm not a fan of it either. But I think systems like TOW are much less susceptible to it when compared to AoS or 40k, because it doesn't have a constant flow of big new centrepieces that people will by and never finish. On a side note, as it becomes more apparent that we're entering/in a global recession, I think systems like TOW and HH are in a better position than AoS and 40k because they rely less on hype for the big new thing and more on the genuine passion fans have for the setting and game. I think ultimately all we can really say about TOW for is that it had a good launch. Anything else is pure speculation based on opinion rather than any concrete facts. But I do think that it's in a good position for now and moving forward I think that a lot of the concerns about factions and legacy factions will be addressed. Once all the core factions have been released, I do think we'll see most of the legacy factions returning, as I think it's clear from the pdf rules that the designers intended for these factions to be in the game.

[@TheOuterCircle]

"I think ultimately all we can really say about TOW for is that it had a good launch [citation needed]. Anything else is pure speculation based on opinion rather than any concrete facts [citation needed]. But I do think that it's in a good position for now and moving forward I think that a lot of the concerns about factions and legacy factions will be addressed [citation needed]. Once all the core factions have been released, I do think we'll see most of the legacy factions returning, as I think it's clear from the pdf rules that the designers intended for these factions to be in the game. [see your own sentence above, about pure speculation and opinion rather than concrete facts, especially given GW has IN PRINT stated their intention to NOT do the very thing you're saying they will]"

[@seamasdevoy6830]

@@TheOuterCircle Oh yeah, I totally admit that the source for the stuff about legacy factions is trust me bro, because that's all anyone is going off atm with regard to the future and long term viability of the game as none of us have any idea what goes on behind closed doors at GW. It's not like anything said on WarCom is binding at all, or that GW has a track record for treating the stuff said on there as such. As with literally every other game from the Specialist Game Studio, they release with limited factions and build them out over time, so I don't think it's an unreasonable leap in logic. From a marketing/business perspective, if you're not planning on releasing anything for those factions in the first cycle of releases, it makes more sense to tell players that those armies aren't coming at all as they may buy into other armies now and then buy into the legacy stuff when it comes later down the line. Whereas, telling people that stuff for these factions will be coming at some point in the future may mean that players interested in them wait to buy in and GW misses out on potential sales. Is is a scummy, borderline immoral thing to do? Yes undoubtedly, but it's fairly standard business practice to say whatever you need to get sales now and walk stuff back/pretend you never said it when it's convenient later. As for it having had a good launch, part of that conclusion is that basically everything having sold out online on the day of release, and the GW website had queues at least an hour long to get in most of the day. Also, the engagement at the open day and with Old World stuff on social media platforms with things like battle reports has been consistently pretty good since release, so I don't think it's unreasonable to say that there is currently sizeable player interest in the game.

[@diggman88]

I don't buy the models but I do watch the updates and this is Games workshops stand of practice. They scattered releases to keep everyone on a drip feed of hype. They don't refresh the armies. They were fresh one squad at a time so they have something to talk about.

[@Balevolt]

Nope 100% agree look at what they did with Heresy 2.0

[@TinBane]

They are refreshing their trademarks, the ones that they actually have that cover this era.

[@iceniwargames6347]

I'll buy a bunch of models to round out my old fantasy armies, but thats about it.

[@NapoleonicWargaming]

Honestly bud, i think you should stick to the systems you know about. The WFB community is so different from the 30/40k one, i think youre looking at this from entirely the erong angle

[@anguswilsonspillane1302]

I have been a fan of wh fantasy for years but never gotten into it due to lack of minis. Honestly I think the old world has good potential and GW has failed entirely to capitalize on said potential. Unless they release new or redone ranges soon I think system will be down to its original player base before to long.

[@khamul64]

Why would they support Old World when they are already making Warmaster 2.0 ? Judging by what is going on with Horus Heresy I am almost sure this will happen.

[@danielroberts8049]

Nah but it’s just empire vs empire

[@vostroyanfirstborn9834]

I actually really like Legions Imperialis but by god have they fuckhanded that release. Latest article they showed new datacards for the Beta Garmon book and put a link to the old ones on the store... the ones that sold out within an hour of release and aren't being reprinted. I mean it's almost like you're deliberately trolling at that point.

[@MonsterTomten]

To be honest, that new bone dragon and the new tomb priest looks so garabage. I can't even fathom how with todays technology in sculpting and printing how minis that are 20 years old still looks superior to that crap

[@benn1181]

I really reslly like Bretonnia, especially the new stuff, but i just don't feel confident buying in.

[@monkeyinapanzer]

At this point GW just feels so out of touch that old world could be a legitimate massive success and they would still just sit on their hands and do nothing with it. The preorders for old world sold like hotcakes with pretty much everything being out of stock everywhere, but what has that translated out to? What seems like it will be a painfully slow release schedule, quarters of armies coming back at a time, legacy armies that might come back years down the line once they are done being filler for AoS armies, and a lot of FOMO made to order shenanigans for basic units. I personally think old world will be successful, but that it will be massively undercut by whatever the hell this current plan for the system is.

[@ghostjager8190]

To me a factor that negatively impacts the community is shills like Valrak snd others like him... i respect his passion for things he enjoys, and is incredibly passionate about. But oh my his incessant positive position towards GW and with his fans following suit nothing will change for the better

[@RichardSilvers-ii8mh]

Waa waa it's valraks fault... dickhead

[@krilc]

We really counting imperial militia and ruinstorm (2 PDFs never to be fully supported much like Vampire counts, chaos dwarves etc) or even knights as factions?? You yourself did a video on how unplayable the first 2 are especially Imperial militia. C'mon Macca you know 30k is like 4-5 factions and all of them in varying poor states of support except I guess Ad mech which is pretty much complete and by 30k standards is amazing

[@gozewstuffnthings5837]

Even looking at the title I knew the only people who think the game is legit dead, are 40k/aos players who think you need a release every 20 minutes. GW just fail at post support.. which, I'm glad of with ToW.

[@ZerberusKnight]

Wait, they actually released it in the end?!

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

Idk, I'm having fun with my DE and Brets. The way I see Old World is just like it used to be, a dead game with a slight update, since I still played 8th for many years since I hate Age of Shitmar, I'm happy I got a rule update but that's how I see it.

[@walt_man]

I got bankrupted by the wonderful Coof, and almost croaked from it in 2022 (in fact a 2018 illness strongly imitated it? Hmmm). As a result, i have enough buying power to get food, gas and glue. I wonder how long 40k as a hobby has left? I know, you just reading that are saying its not possible. Every game eventually dies out, in GW's case, im talking becoming a 'million'dollar company, only. No longer a 500 million giant.

[@MrReaverable]

Ultimately, the release of The Old World kinda threw me off GW. I wanted to get into it, and I still like the idea behind it. I hope it trods on so I can get Cathay, but until then I'll just stick with other rank and flank games.

[@btpingel]

patents its all about those patents they need to do something with the IP to keep the name . that is why we will more then likely see a Space Hulk in the near future as they have to reissue it to keep the IP and names under their corporation.

[@landtroron]

Mr.circle, can you elate me on how to build a community? I’m not hoping for something big but to go from 6 players to like 12

[@mariusloesch820]

It is so transparent to me. They still sell all the Oger, Skaven and Dark Elves ranges in their respective AoS ranges. They are IN PRODUCTION, but they are so scared of people double-dipping their armies in two systems (despite incompatibly basing bein required) that they would rather have "new old" Factions just for the fomo crowd. Ever wondered why Heresy only released after basicly all the firstborn-marines were phased out of 40k? Or why they dont sell demons for Heresy? New Russ anyone, because thats what we need, god forbid you use the ones you already have! Just bite the bullet and admit that you can not sell all unit options. What old Fantasy faction could not be represented by GW models? There are reasonable proxies or converion oportunities in GW´s range to build basicly everything, so it won´t even be a problem for tournaments. It is the price you pay for healthy system and long term customers. I am so tiered of this shit...

[@OzymandiasRex]

Okay. Can we go back to HH 1.0 then?

[@Drobeis]

I would say that they did have a big flop with Warcry 2.0. As a fan of that game, I wanted to see it succeed and be popular, but all that massive flop did was change the release models for that and Kill Team. Instead of a self contained game with 2 factions and terrain, you get your two factions and one terrain piece, and a separate set of terrain for the whole season, and charge more for it. This company won't change, nor will its fanatics.

[@Alex-yg5uh]

Agree, old world is toast. Old sculpts, metal models, half the factions cut from the roster, difficult to paint an entire army, total war players pipedream, the list goes on....

[@autumnlotus6250]

This game is likely to only survive so long as people are willing to use third party miniatures. I am currently sorting through. Do Baltimore 3D printed bottles for an orcs End goblins army simply because the older Miniatures are fairly hideous.

[@durnaxe8708]

Honestly I feel like The Old World is GW getting pissed at the Kings of War (and 9th age I guess) players existing and they don't have a monopoly on rank and flank games.

[@XX-jn8co]

This, GW just realised someone that wasn't them was making a game and responded.