The One Ring | Why Did Sauron Use Elvish Script?

[@br3030]

thank you red book, i learned much from the other tolkien channels but now they are just going in circles. you continue to bring new insights to the table.

[@TheRedBook]

Cheers, glad you are enjoying the content. I probably wouldn't be making it if it was all just the same as other channels :D

[@docopoper]

I very much agree. I saw the video and thought the answer was just going to be that Sauron isn't very creative in such matters. But I learned a bunch about Tengwar.

[@MikeTheD]

Exactly

[@ubvrox]

This!

[@garethmiguel]

Most days in my classes I have to use the Arabic script to write English words for my students (to help with pronunciation). Now I have an image in my head of Sauron the 'Black Speech as a second language' instructor in an Elvish resort. Chilling. Marvellous video, and arrived just as I crashed on the sofa after work. Thank you!

[@TheRedBook]

Glad you enjoyed it! Imagining Sauron trying his best to teach it to a rabble of Orcs in his classroom and they are all too busy smashing each other over the head and he finally says "I give up".

[@TheSaneHatter]

Even before you metnioned it, I felt that the "corruption" element explained the choice almost by itself, with the flexibility of the Tengwar script being almost secondary: Morgoth and Sauron are in the business of twisting all that exists into new forms to suit themselves, and why should they not do the same for writing? Indeed, Sauron's Black Speech was a corruption of the extinct "Valarin" language to begin with, so why not adapt a corrupted Elvish script to convey it? Sauron may be devious, but he's about as deep as a bucket of water in his motivations.

[@TheRedBook]

My next video on the One Ring of Sauron. I hope you found this one interesting! I haven't discussed languages often on here and this was a cool topic to even share a glimpse at the depth of Tolkien's creativity. Is there anything about the One Ring that you are curious about? Feel free to share your thoughts on the video or ideas for content related to the One Ring and the channel! If you want to get involved in helping to decide on interesting topics to cover or if you want early access to videos, consider joining the channel - kzbin.info/aero/UUMOPOz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRw

[@theturquoisedream9244]

Jolly good show!!!

[@MistaGify]

The only thing about the Legendarium that is too daunting for me is the language, so I appreciate the effort that went into this video. For me, it's very obvious why Sauron used the Elvish script. Firstly, it's convenient. As a Dark Lord and a craftsman by training, Sauron has neither the time nor natural aptitude to make his own language. Secondly, it's in his nature like his master before him to enjoy corrupting what others made for himself, especially the Elves. Thirdly, he tricked and ruined Celebrimbor's life and legacy, what better way to twist the knife further than use his legendary grandfather's script to top off his crowning achievement? How do you think Feanor would have taken to using The One Ring? I think he would have succumbed to it by close proximity alone, easily beating Sauron and becoming a new Dark Lord.

[@MikeTheD]

Great video man

[@Enerdhil]

I have the same question about the ring I have always had. How did Sauron's spirit fly out of the depths of sinking Numenor and carry the ring thousands of miles to Barad Dur? It doesn't make sense. Spirit is spirit, isn't it? I think Tolkien should have said Sauron left the ring in Barad Dur because he was too powerful with the ring on and wouldn't be able to hide his intentions. His plan was to subtly turn Ar-Pharazon against the Valar until he could convince the King to sail to Aman and demand immortality. Sauron did nothing in Numenor that required him to bear the One Ring. A ghost carrying a ring thousands of miles is dumb, IMHO.

[@michaelsavage7884]

I like your videos a lot more than other Tolkien Channels. Quotes are the reason.

[@TheRedBook]

Unfortunately, it seems like live chat is timed after the video is over. Sorry folks! There seems to be an option to move over to livestreams after a premiere. Still, it was the first time trying it so thanks for watching the video live with me :)

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Thanks, Steven. I was saying, the chat would have been more fun if the video was longer.)

[@TheRedBook]

@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Yes, definitely. I didn't really know how it worked. I assumed I could keep it going as long as I wanted but you apparently have to direct people to a follow-up stream if you want to do that. Maybe I should just do rare livestreams every now and again for such discussions but it was fun to watch along with people.

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

@@TheRedBook Will have to re-watch it, though.))) It was sometimes difficult both to appreciate the video and artwork and follow the chat.

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah I didn't consider that. I sometimes put text on the screen as well!

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

@@TheRedBook Anyway, it was fun! Btw, when Gandalf tells the Council of Elrond about the library of Minas-Tirith and how some books and scrolls there are in languages that are forgotten, do you think he means Quenya?

[@bradwilliams7198]

I always felt it had a bit of a practical joke element on Sauron's part, putting the inscription in the writing system invented by Celebrimbor's grandfather.

[@TheRedBook]

I do agree that this could be one of the reasons. Placing the script on the ring in mockery and humiliation - it's a possibility!

[@wayfaringman8418]

I've been watching great videos on Tolkien lore from several able commentators for years now. Just out of the gate, your channel has raised the bar in every aspect I can think of for those who admire and enjoy this universe and those who also comment on it.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot! The aim has always been to go a bit deeper than what I found on KZbin before and I'm glad many seem to think that this channel is doing that.

[@khartog01]

How great is it to live in a world with Elvish, Dwarvish, Klingon, and Mandalorian languages existing for us all to learn and use.

[@scottburke4800]

Absolutely amazing work. The amount of research you put into your videos shows every time you post. I’m always learning from your videos, thank you.

[@salmanhyder1655]

This video was beautiful beyond description. Aesthetics, content and that soft n light background tone. God - tier. Thanks.

[@Enerdhil]

Great video with an even greater ending, "So subtle that it hides in plain sight the evil that it contains." One of the best lines you have said on video.👍👍👍

[@TheRedBook]

I did quite like that line. I almost recorded it as "Isildur wasn't wrong when he said the ring was a subtle work" but then I thought that was too subtle a point and wanted to explain what I was talking about :D

[@neant2046]

You just ripped it off my tongue, I absolutely love this wording:)

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Such a great choice of words to help us more clearly envision the reality of the Ring's power. You have a gift of wording things. Keep using it 😁

[@CybershamanX]

Believe it or not, I was reading Fellowship last night and it was the part near the beginning where Gandalf explains some things to Frodo and at one point throws the ring into the fireplace to see if it really REALLY is the One Ring. AND when I saw the Elvish script again, the thought popped into my mind... Why Elvish? So, thanks for posting this as if you read my mind!😎 Incidentally, I always keep a "reading copy" of LotR and Hobbit by my bed in the form of separate books for easier holding. My current set is the new(ish) Harper Collins 3 books plus the Reader's Companion housed in one slipcase. The main books use red ink in places and the Elvish script was printed in that color. I think it was the stark nature of the red script that sparked the question of why Elvish in my mind. Why do I have these books by my bed? Well, quite simply because they are comforting to read. Even if I'm not currently trying to read them front to back, I will often just pick one up and read a favorite section to lull myself to sleep. Sometimes I read a happy section, like those that take place in Hobbiton or Rivendell, and sometimes it will be a spooky/scary section, depending on my mood. 😉

[@Looshmal]

Give a world class philologist an assignment on language and scripts and watch him go to work. Hard to credit just one man with creating the entirety of Middle-Earth while still having a world class career. Just pure genius.

[@TheRedBook]

It's crazy that the language came first and then he moved onto the story to use those languages. A second thought and it ended up being the best work of its kind.

[@MikeTheD]

If only he had the lifespan of a Numenorean. The man simply ran outta time.

[@TheRedBook]

Not long enough, give him the immortality 😅

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook I have often thought that were he still alive and writing to this day, he'd still be making revisions.

[@cbalan777]

@@MikeTheD I think he would have had to move onto a completely different story. You can only blow up the bubble of a story for so long before it pops.

[@nfragala]

I love that last point. Very insightful!

[@starrshamek5449]

I love your videos! They are so informative and in-depth so people can get a better understanding of Tolkien’s work.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Great video man! You always manage to find interesting topics about Tolkien's world!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks :) and I can't take all the credit for the Q&A topics - most of the time it really is something someone has asked!

[@CounciloftheRings]

@@TheRedBook Ahh yeah a nice way of doing it!

[@beecee2205]

another interesting video red book. You always make me go and read relevant passages, often with new insight. In this case I went to HOME Return of the Shadow, the development of the inscription on The One Ring. The word that stands out for me is Bind. According to Merriam Webster, Bind is a transative verb. Its definiion is various. Suggestions include "to make secure by tying" or "to confine, restrain, or restrict as if with bonds" or "to constrain". I note also that a Ring itself is a form of binding a finger. Also there's a strange English idiomatic phrase "in a bind" which basically translates "in trouble". Tolkien surely worked very hard on evey single word here.

[@neant2046]

Tolkien and his languages... It is amazing how he developed his hobby into something so complete and real. Me and my childhood friend used to have our own language to exchange secret messages (I suppose everyone had), but it remained just a child's play, while Tolkien created a whole new world for his languages to live. Can you please make a separate video about them? I love the way you highlight the details. And thanks a lot for this one :)

[@TheRedBook]

I'll try to work out some interesting videos about the languages, rather than just reciting the information about them that's already on Wiki pages, etc. Involving them in a larger question is something more interesting - in my opinion!

[@neant2046]

​@@TheRedBook I absolutely agree with you! The most interesting part is how they are connected to the lore and which ideas they help to express. Like in case with Sauron. I never thought about the reason why he used elvish script before (it just seemed evident), but now the ideas about what he might have put into this gesture and what he might feel when using it just won't let me go... It is such bait for the mind, you know :) And btw, I've never read comments to the videos before, but I started with your channel - so many interesting guesses and theories, and such a cool community! You seem to attract thinkers.

[@TheRedBook]

My original script for this video did include talk of why he used it but I thought it was getting away from the original question. I'll have to cover that again at a later date. It's going to be hard to market it without it sounding like a rip-off of this video. The wording of the title has to be different. I agree about the comments. I wish I could reply to them all but the last month or so saw the channel grow a bit and I can't keep up with all the comments anymore. I don't even get notifications for every comment so I miss a lot of them. I do spend a good deal of time looking through to respond though!

[@neant2046]

​@@TheRedBook Great, I'm looking forward to this next video! Regarding the channel - it is only the beginning... It grows pretty fast, and I hope the amount of future activity will not drive you crazy :) At some point the community will start living its own life, I guess, and it will be a bit easier to keep up with the comments, since you won't have to respond to all the questions yourself. Anyway, thanks a lot for still replying, I appreciate this :)

[@TheRedBook]

I kind of do it in a priority way. Channel members like yourself will always have responses to comments, then I respond to other Tolkien channels if they comment, then public subscribers, then just going through other comments to see interesting ones. But a lot of discussions I would get involved in end up having debates with other people and I just read them and see what people are thinking. Sometimes I don't need to respond :)

[@tiffanyblewme]

holy hell. your content is awesome. the editing, the voice acting, the way you source and quote everything (im so impressed at how much research you do, and how much it takes to memorize so many names and places in this universe). your voice is also just very satisfying and suits this sort of content. cant get enough. thankz dude.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot :D - I think research and sourcing is certainly missing from a lot of other videos. I try to be clear what I am speculating on as well. Appreciate the positivity!

[@BJETNT]

You and the broken sword are top-notch in your analytical abilities of Tolkien's work. It would take me years to get to the level of research you guys do in one video. I must say I think Tolkien would be proud that you guys represent him properly. I know why would be if it was my work. Thank you so much for your interpretation and sharing of all this knowledge. Most people that watch the movies have no idea of the rich history of Middle Earth I know I didn't. Peter Jackson did an awesome job but there's enough material here for another 50 movies. I would really love to see some of them in my lifetime and I'm only 45. Lord of the rings by itself and even the Hobbit movies were absolute masterpieces and probably some of the best work ever done in the world.

[@amandaroberts2069]

I know it was meant as a complement for RB but I wouldn't compare this channel to BS especially when it comes to analysis. Those guys do not analyze anything. They are just info dump videos and it can all be found on wiki sites. They give opinions on things but they have no depth imo. Plus from what I have gathered elsewhere RB started this channel after BS had stolen quite a few of his articles from online and copied then word for word on their old channel. I can only guess he may not like being compared to them 😂

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for the kind words :) . I wouldn''t really compare my channel to the Broken Sword channel...I think we have very different approaches and we talk about completely different things but I agree that many overlook the vast depth in regards to the amount of Tolkien content out there. There's a lot beyond the pages of LotR!

[@TheSwordandPearl]

Just found your channel. Pure gold 💎

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you very much :)

[@guillee12]

Thank you for the video, I always assumed by Isildur's text that somehow Sauron valued the beauty of the elves writing for his best creation (a strange thought), but now I realize he kind of had no other option😂

[@TheRedBook]

I still think that's a good idea and I kind of hint at it in the video. Maybe even Sauron would appreciate such work as one who is naturally drawn to crafting. Maybe if Sauron thought he could outdo such work, he'd have attempted it, but he never did. He never attempted to outdo anything Feanor did and possibly couldn't.

[@vinyamar3604]

I agree, being originally a maiar of Aule, I bet Sauron couldn’t ignore or undervalue the importance of an original and established creation. Wether he HAD to put an inscription on there for magical purposes isn’t really clear but I like the idea that in order to enslave the other rings, some incantation was needed. But who knows! Lol

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook I think there was a certain level of practicality to Sauron's methods. No need to create his own version of Fëanor's works when he could just use what Fëanor made.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

this is good stuff I liked your point about the corruption. I feel also that it shows some jealousy on Saurons part

[@TheRedBook]

Certainly jose, I'm sure we can all agree with Sauron seems like the jealous type :D

[@chrisvb4387]

I enjoy your manner of talking about the same thoughts I have about the literature. Same thoughts, you you are most able to use words most delicately in such fine progression. Your thoughts and videos are beautiful!

[@TheRedBook]

I appreciate it Chris. For every "you speak too slow" or "this is boring" comment, I get about 10 like yours, which shows people really do like the content!

[@chrisvb4387]

@@TheRedBook to each his own flavour I guess I'll say to that. :) But you keep going. This is good stuff. Tolkien would have enjoyed hearing you tell this in their club ^_^

[@vinyamar3604]

Assuming that Sauron did need to use some kind of script in order for his magic to work (to control the other bearers), He didn’t have much choice of which script to use really …but even if he did have his own original script, surely it would make more sense to use the one most accustomed to your intended targets? Very interesting topic 👍🏻

[@TheRedBook]

Possibly but it does become quite mysterious when you realise that Sauron never intended for anyone to hold the One Ring or maybe even get a close enough look at the writing. It opens up a realm of possibilities in regards to why he put writing on the ring. What if it was an insult to the Elves, using their own script, or just a signature of sorts?

[@vinyamar3604]

@@TheRedBook yes it is very mysterious! I find Tolkien’s love of words and language just ooze into the story in such a great way, I know Sauron never intended for anyone to see the One ring, which always makes me assume it was part of his spell craft, but you make an excellent point, It could have been a form of mockery like you say… something I hadn’t really considered before. 👍🏻

[@vinyamar3604]

Great Video thankyou! Daeron is such a superb character, whilst the Noldor are generally being all innovative and creative… he single handedly keeps the Sindar in the game by creating the Cirth! 💪🏻 plus he’s the greatest minstrel of all the children of Iluvatar. He loves Luthien which isn’t reciprocated and his story ends with him passing into the east, like a Shakespearean tragic hero. Love it 📖

[@Enerdhil]

Maybe Daeron can bump into Maglor and the two can talk about how much life sucks and form a Metal band. They can call themselves Daelor or Magron. 🤔

[@john-paulgies4313]

I picked up Tengwar in high school and made my own English modes for phonetic and spelling accuracies respectively. Used to scrawl elegant-looking yet petty messages on all my homework and tests just to make them look nice. Never did get the hang of Cirth, though.

[@TheRedBook]

That's cool, and interesting that Cirth was the difficult one. I'd suspect that would be easier for people to get to grips with. I enjoy looking at the work of others when it comes to their writing and translations online using Tengwar - elegant as you say.

[@john-paulgies4313]

@@TheRedBook Elder Futhark and the runes Tolkien used in The Hobbit were just easier to work with for me. Too many of the Cirth runes are mirror images of one another. I don't have dyslexia, but it's still confusing, and the above mentioned served me well enough.

[@witchhazel4135]

I just like listening to your voice. It's so soothing. I wish you would narrate a book Any book.

[@baarbacoa]

Thank you for another great video. Here's an idea for another ring video: Was it impossible for Frodo to intentionally destroy the ring? And did he unintentionally invoke the power of the ring to curse Gollum to cast himself into the fires of Mt. Doom for violating his oath?

[@TheRedBook]

Great questions there, I'll certainly add this to the list. I was going to discuss the "Wheel of Fire" witnessed by Sam when Frodo is talking to Gollum but an exploration of whether Frodo really "failed" or not is a good one. The part about the Oath is hopefully going to get covered in an Oath & Curses video.

[@yael9137]

As a hobby during the first corona lockdowns I tried developing a more phonetically consistent and streamlined Tengwar mode for English. The two current phonetic and “letter for letter” modes are somewhat dissatisfying for me because of English’s complete abandonment of spelling consistency, and the Tengwar provides us with such an elegant and comprehensive table of sounds that really cover a huge range of vowels and consonants, alternating between vocalised and unvocalised, short and long, and arranged in order of where in the mouth the sounds are created, from lips to throat in every row, when compared with the Alphabet. I got stuck however, when I realised that due to my mild (but still apparent) Australian accent, my carefully formulated diphthongs would not necessarily be read the same way by other English speakers. Especially due to the great diversity of diphthongs that are a vowel connected with an R. I also noticed that, at least with my accent, the English language has 6 short vowel sounds (illustrated by the words Pat, Pet, Pit, Pot, Put and Putt). I felt uncomfortable needing to come up with an additional vowel sound and left the project. I might try again someday.

[@Enerdhil]

Interesting. Australian vowels seem to be very different from North American ones. With North American vowels, I think there are at least 14 vowels, if "cot" and "caught" are the same. Personally, I say them differently, so I use 15 basic vowel phonemes. BOUGHT, roBOT, BET, BIT, BEAT, BITE, BAIT, BOY, BOAT, BOUT, BOOT, BOOK, BUT, BURT, rabBIT. The last one is a schwa. Bit and Beat are completely different sounds.

[@yael9137]

@@Enerdhil I was only counting the short vowels. Several of your examples are long vowels and diphthongs. And North America vowels already deviate dramatically from one another depending on region.

[@Enerdhil]

@@yael9137 Short vowels are not as problematic as diphthongs in Sindarin. I think that every time two vowels are together, we have to pronounce them as diphthongs. For example, Earendil should sound closer to Air-N-deal than A-R-N-deal. And Eol should would closer to Ale then A-Ole. What say you?

[@fireheart1410]

The animation is also so good!

[@TheRedBook]

The ring animation? Yes, I'm glad he let me use that one!

[@fireheart1410]

@@TheRedBook I mean your editing is just so good together with the content. 😊

[@theturquoisedream9244]

Informative and enjoyable. Thanks Red Book for more groovy insights into the minds eye of Mordor!

[@TheRedBook]

No problem at all. Is there anything you are curious about when it comes to the One Ring?

[@theturquoisedream9244]

@@TheRedBook I forget the name of the elf that helped create the rings of power but that he made the three elvish rings in secret and when Sauron put the one ring on he discovered he had been deceived himself and that the elves themselves possessed rings of power of their own and thus knew of his treachery. I think, and I could be wrong, that Sauron made war on the elves for their 3 rings of power, demanding that they be given to him for they were of his craft and that the elves had stolen from him when a master craftsmen of the elves made the 3 rings of power for the elves. Sauron then hunted him down tortured, and killed him and then displayed his body before the armies of the elves in his what I would guess be called the ring wars of whatever age it was. This is all stuff I've heard people talk about that have read the books and know all about the lore but it's only as group they seem to know anything at all. Then I'm still left wondering how much of what they know is true to the lore or them just making shix up to fill in the blanks. You seem to narrowed things to what Tolkien wrote and then offer creative insights base from his writings without the wild fanboy conjecture. And I appreciate that. So I guess I'd like to know more about I guess the Ring War as I called it over the 3 elvish rings and how Sauron claimed they were his. The Elvish craftsman that helped Sauron create the other rings of power and his fate would be cool too. So thank you for asking and I hope you feel they are interesting topics as well. 👍

[@TheRedBook]

Well, the Elf is Celebrimbor and everything you have said is true to what Tolkien wrote. The problem with Celebrimbor is that he was used as a main character in a recent series of games and the story was VERY different to what Tolkien imagined. so it's easy to get confused. The material you have mentioned though is all found in Unfinished Tales and in part the section of The Silmarillion called " Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" . I will be doing a video at some point explaining why the Three Rings were subject to the One - the connection between them despite Sauron never being there when they were made. This will also give a brief overview of the events you mention but what you say is true. He made the master ring but the Elves knew his plan as they had their rings. He then attempted to take the Three Rings by force in the "War of the Elves and Sauron". 1693 - The Three are hidden 1695 - Sauron invades Eriado 1697 - Eregion is overrun and Celebrimbor is murdered after failing to reveal the location of the Three 1699 - Sauron overruns Eriador 1700 - Numenor aids the Elves in Lindon 1701 - Sauron flees Eriador I will cover why Sauron would claim they were his and it's completely related to his character. Imagine you gave someone knowledge but you had to be there to see them use that knowledge for your benefit. They then make something amazing and you feel entitled. "You couldn't have done that without me" so Sauron in his petty jealously feels the Three are his by right and not through the will of Celebrimbor.

[@theturquoisedream9244]

@@TheRedBook I'll be looking forward to your videos. See, it's that time of the year around the house and the movies are gonna play and family and friends are gonna start up with the conversations and sometimes arguments about all things Tolkien (Harry Potter is mixed in as well). I've watched the movies and listened, always the lame duck about anything "not movie" I've been told how the movies are nice, but very different than the books even. So I choose to stay silent and agree with all these knowledgeable in all Tolkien things loremasters. But not this year. This year I found your channel on da Utube and this ducks got teeth. 😁

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Those Three Rings had a wholesome power didn't they? I mean they were created to increase the power to preserve and enhance great qualities, weren't they? Could Sauron have corrupted them and if so, what would he have done with them? Please answer those questions in your video on this topic.🙏

[@goncaloferreira6429]

yet another example of "evil" using instead of creating. Beyond that just because one is a dark lord does not mean one cannot enjoy the fine things in life, like the beauty of elvish writting. on another level it shows some irony, an eternal reminder that, should the plan have worked, Elves played a part in their own enslavement.

[@TheRedBook]

It's a good point and even with the unsullied Three Rings, Tolkien is clear that they aren't wholly good and that it represents a fall on the part of the Elves. Tolkien really shows the Elves are flawed like everyone else.

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

I think that the elvish script used by Sauron behave like the runes in Andúril. The sword was then engraved with runes of victory by the smithies of Rivendell: "Nanye Andúril i ne Narsil macil Elendilo. Lercuvanten i mali Mordereo" - which translate to "I am Andúril who was Narsil, the Sword of Elendil. Let the thralls of Mordor flee me". And this sword had a powerful Fear Aura against the minions of Mordor. And the one ring? I think that this elvish script had a power/function to a mind control ability used by Sauron to dominate Morgoth's monsters (trolls, orcs, wargs etc), men (Númenóreans, Haradrim, Variags etc), Dwarves (at the battle of Dagorlad), beasts, birds etc.

[@TheRedBook]

Interesting thoughts Rafael. I would like to explore the WHY did it have writing on it question, beyond it being a simple plot device to allow it to be known as the One Ring. It's mysterious...

[@beecee2205]

@@TheRedBook My wife has just remarked that a Ring is a symbol of Marriage. I'm inclined strongly to suggest that the inscription is more about the binding the other Ring wearers to Sauron's Will. A forced Marriage.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook I think Sauron was putting his eternal claim on the ring with the writing.

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers. Great work again. Il look forward to the next one

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for the continued support Shane :)

[@shanenolan8252]

@@TheRedBook my pleasure mate

[@Jameleo]

One underrated facet of your channel is the editing and production quality, while it would be easy and perhaps suit your content style to have minimal visual detail, I’ve discovered that watching your videos instead of just listening with the screen off open a new experience

[@tominiowa2513]

Could you do a video on what exactly the "fading" of the elves who choose to stay in Middle Earth after the final ship sails to Aman from the Grey Havens entails, and whether or not these faded elves could be the source of unseen woodland beings in faerie tales?

[@Enerdhil]

I would love to hear Steven's take on your question. I am certainly willing to change my mind on the issue if I hear or read a convincing argument backed by deep-dive lore.

[@neant2046]

I support it too, I would love to see a video discovering this topic.

[@tominiowa2513]

@@Enerdhil Thought it was best to punt to an expert on this subject. 😉

[@Enerdhil]

@@tominiowa2513 You are right, Mellon. Steven has clarified or changed my thinking on more aspects of the lore than all the other Tolkien KZbinrs combined.

[@TheRedBook]

Sure, that sounds like a good idea for a video.

[@Aurora-qn2dx]

Lovely video as always 👏👏🧚✨

[@TheRedBook]

Hello again :) thanks Ella!

[@TJDious]

What amuses me is that the ring poem inscription rhymes in both languages.

[@TheRedBook]

It makes sense that they do. Each section ends with "all" and "them". "ul" in black speech is "them" and "ulûk" is also "them" but as a total so "them all" .

[@neant2046]

This may be due to the fact that according to the unwritten rule of many fairy tales and legends, the spell has great power when it is rhymed.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Because Sauron is a derivative hack. ;) Seriously though, interesting examination of the various aspects of Sauron’s decision.

[@TheRedBook]

Haha, I'd agree he's derivative :D maybe not a hack. I like that he has his failures. Black Speech, the universal language, failing miserably? I wonder if Sauron hated writing in the Elvish or appreciated it as I said in the video. Respect, or envy and jealousy.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@@TheRedBook probably all of the above lol

[@vartanpapazian8342]

Amazing insight as always! Bit of a tangent here, fair warning lol But I feel the most underestimated character in LotR is Isildur. People tend to assume Elves are just naturally superior to Men when it’s never stated, in fact often the opposite. They might say, why didn’t Elrond take the ring from Isildur etc. Assuming he was ever in a position to, who says Elrond could best him in combat? Isildur cut the Ring from his living hand, while Gil-Galad was defeated in combat. Numenor was the most powerful force the Earth had ever seen, not elven kingdoms. The point is I appreciate that Isildur immediately understood the script and his reasoning was sound. Understanding the black language was deliberately simple and crude, too much so for subtlety. Everyone’s so quick to judge him for falling to the ring, but when Maiar and elves won’t dare touch it, is that such a character flaw? Isildur is just another very deep character the films left simplified unfortunately.

[@TheRedBook]

Hello Vartan, I agree about Isildur. A very misunderstood character. We are meant to pity him for claiming the ring and then feeling burdened by it. He wasn't weak. Very few on earth can refuse such a prize that is there for them to take. Isildur's mistake allows those in the future to realise it's a mistake to claim such power. People are quick to say they wouldn't do something but they will never find themselves in the situation to be tempted in the first place.

[@vartanpapazian8342]

@@TheRedBook precisely! People (thanks to the films depiction as basically an accident, which is untrue) grossly underestimate the accomplishment of actually defeating Sauron in combat. I mean, good Lord, what a superhuman feat. Who wouldn’t feel invincible in that moment? To then turn around and use him as an example of the weakness of men? Insanity. Securing single handedly a few thousand more years of peace for Men & Elves is a pretty good legacy in my book.

[@dlevi67]

Agree that Isildur is poorly represented in the films. However he didn't wrestle Sauron to the ground; Sauron('s body) was killed in the fight with Elendil and Gil-Galad. Isildur "simply" cut the Ring off and kept it; another case of the films not respecting canonical writing. FWIW, I'm not sure he fell to the Ring either - at least not more than Bilbo did - although Isildur only had it for two years. There is no mention of Isildur becoming evil or even just overbearing and domineering (like Galadriel mentions she would become).

[@vartanpapazian8342]

@@dlevi67 Do you have the passage handy describing the ring cut? And I totally agree that there’s no indication of “evil”, that he’s held up as some sort of pariah is ridiculous and not reflective really in the books.

[@vartanpapazian8342]

Just found it myself, you’re correct! However it’s still Isildur that severed Sauron from the world, not a sneaky victory I would say and what ultimately ended the reign. Something nobody else on the battlefield appeared willing to do perhaps.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Hi Steven, I have a slightly related question (and I possibly asked it before) - were all Rings of Power meant for Elven lords initially? I think it's rather vague in the text. I thought about because I imagine Sauron wanted to rule over Elves rather than Orcs, and it fits a bit with adorning his Ring with Elvish script, but a very unelvish declaration on it.

[@mikeynth7919]

I thought it was stated that there was no other script available to Sauron that could handle such fine delicate work.

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, the 16 Rings of Power that Sauron aided in were made by Elves and seemingly for Elves. The Silmarillion states "And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency". We aren't talking about the Three here because Sauron didn't know about them yet. When he reclaimed the rings he could, he then distributed them elsewhere but the original motive was for Sauron to govern the Elves. He didn't need rings to govern Orcs, of course :)

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook Right, he was not aware of the Three... excellent deduction, thank you 🖖🏼

[@MikeTheD]

@@Crafty_Spirit cool question thx

[@Enerdhil]

Thanks Crafty for asking this question. Thanks to Steven for answering it.😁

[@drewp9819]

Known elvish script but words that are unknown. Love it

[@istari0]

Fascinating. So, the Tengwar script Tolkien created can be used to write down words from English and all sorts of other real world languages because it simply has a one-to-one correlation between the sound of each part of a word and the unique symbol for that sound? So, if someone knows the sound associated with each symbol and is given something written in Tengwar, they could read it aloud and effectively be speaking in whatever language was being used when the text was being written? Or am I just confused?

[@TheRedBook]

No you aren't really confused, we can do the same with our own writing systems and languages. If we know the sounds and the rules of the script, we can imitate the sounds. As I said in the video, I'm sure Isildur could read the script because he would be familiar with Tengwar but the words would be meaningless because he didn't speak the Black Speech. He'd have no idea what "Ash nazg durbatulûk" meant but could say it. He even says it is "foul and uncouth" meaning he probably recognised the sounds and style of this language but it lacked the 'grace' of the languages that script would usually represent.

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook But so long as I know the sound associated with each symbol in the Tengwar Script, I don't need to even know much, if anything, about the actual language. For example, in English, the letters s & h each have their own but when they are placed together as in sh, the sound is a different one entirely. In Tengwar, this would have a completely separate symbol, right? Furthermore, languages such as English, French, and German use the same alphabet at least for the most part but depending upon what language is being used, how things are pronounced can vary from language to language even if the same letters are being used. If I understand correctly, so long as I know the sound for each symbol I could actually correctly read aloud a sentence whose underlying language is German even though I don't know German. I wouldn't understand what it said but a German speaker would. If the sentence was written in German, it's doubtful I would say it correctly. Am I right?

[@jeffreysommer3292]

I was under the impression that the Black Speech was a variation of Valarin, which is guttural and harsh compared to Quenya or Sindarin.

[@TheRedBook]

It could also be somewhat influenced by the dropped concept of "Melkian" which itself was a harsh and corrupted version of Valarin.

[@xact13]

That was excellent

[@Thegreywanderer42]

A+ quality video

[@TheRedBook]

Cheers :)

[@emanym]

I think it shows that despite his evil, Sauron appreciates beauty.

[@TheRedBook]

It's an interesting thought. Or maybe an attempt to corrupt that beauty by using it with his own language. A bit like how he must have appreciated the greatness of the Palantiri but misued a Seeing Stone that didn't belong to him.

[@mpalfadel2008]

11 months into the game Welcome to the middle earth lore competition Time to see what ya got

[@wanderinghistorian]

Subtle indeed. While today men wear many different styles, in the not too distant past most all men wore thick, plain, gold bands as a wedding rings. The One would've fit in among them and go entirely unnoticed.

[@shawn092182]

You should do a video about how the race of Hobbits came to be. Maybe provide some of your own theories if you have any. When I was younger, I've always thought that Hobbits were the result of the offsprings from the union of Men and the Petty Dwarves.

[@albdamned577]

there are a few words mentioned from the vala and they are long as hell. I bet Sauron used elvish because if he didn’t he would need to make a bracelet, which would’ve have matched his outfit. Who would want to be lord of the bracelet?

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

Because even Sauron can get distracted and doodle mindlessly sometimes …

[@planepantsgames1791]

Sometimes I just have no words to describe how I feel about this thing Tolkien made.

[@TheRedBook]

Join the club :D

[@mos4396]

👏👍

[@TheRedBook]

👍👍

[@honodle7219]

Just like in real life there are many variations of 'alphabet'. But the concept of 'alphabet' was invented only once. It rapidly spread throughout civilization due to it being so useful.

[@st.blackops2cel61]

How did Gandalf understand the meaning of the words written on the One Ring?

[@TheRedBook]

Probably through study. It was still spoken in Middle-earth, others have learnt it, he has an affinity for the tongues of the inhabitants of Middle-earth and Black Speech is like a debased form of older languages that Gandalf could understand. Plus, the Elves who understood the motives of Sauron when he first wore his One Ring probably understood Sauron's words without even knowing the language, the verse then spread among the Wise.

[@vinyamar3604]

Plus, it’s worth pointing out that Gandalf had been wandering middle-earth for just over 2000 years by the time of the War of Ring, within that time constantly studying his enemy and looking for any sign of his return. Plenty of time to learn some foreign language! Lol

[@connielingus8385]

So Feanor and Sauron were linguists like Tokien? I wonder if Tolkien, then, was interested in forging and casting and stuff like that.

[@virtualcircle285]

I think I figured out the 14 valar. The musical scale has 7 notes. 7 pairs makes 14.

[@TheRedBook]

I can see that, though a scale technically has 8 with the new octave beginning!

[@cubfanmike]

You suggest a question of, "Why Sauron put writing on the ring, in the first place" -- answering that question would, I think, require intimate knowledge of how the ring was made and I would like to suggest that is a no-no

[@TheRedBook]

Of course. It would just be complete speculation as Tolkien didn't answer this anywhere.

[@cubfanmike]

@@TheRedBook --- Sauron, for a time, dwelt among the elves, there he learned the script and discovered, in secret, the script could be infused with the first music, the music of the Ainur. He used the language he created but Melkor inspired. Thus was he able to place that part, which he shared, of the discordant song of evil (sung by Melkor in the beginning), some portion of the essence of his master, into the ring and thus was it pure evil. Of course, that's just me, spitballing.

[@TheRedBook]

@@cubfanmike Certainly a good explanation. In the past I've imagined it being something that sealed his intent. The signature that confirmed the purpose of the ring, so to speak. Almost like how we'd view the binding of a contract but obviously far more "magical" in nature. We also can't forget the purpose it serves in storytelling too!

[@cubfanmike]

@@TheRedBook the story telling part is the reason I offered a, no-no - the ring is the ultimate unknown evil - any real explanation can only diminish it's threat - I could easily see that contract commitment as well - sort of, seal the deal and give a shout out declaration to the elves - hmm, he sort of sprung the trap as well

[@David_Fellner]

Personally, I think Feanor would have been proud to see how Sauron used his script.

[@TheRedBook]

Interesting thought. What do you think Feanor would have thought about the One Ring in general?

[@David_Fellner]

@@TheRedBook At first, I was going to say he would be jealous of Sauron's achievement But on second thought, I think he would have been more inspired to try to surpass Sauron. If Feanor had somehow been around during the 2nd or 3rd Age, I could see him and Sauron starting a sort of arms race, each trying to "out-craft" the other. What the results of that might look like, I have no idea.

[@TheRedBook]

It's interesting to consider. Feanor seems to stand in a league of his own, unsurpassed by any - save Aule? Even Sauron can't just recreate what Feanor achieved. Sauron's One Ring is even a "lesser" version of Morgoth's Ring and I suspect Sauron would have been jealous that Celebrimbor made rings without him as well.

[@David_Fellner]

@@TheRedBook Good points, and I think Sauron certainly *was* jealous of Celebrimbor. And while I agree that Feanor is a more skilled craftsman than Sauron, I would expect that simply being a Maia could bridge the gap in skill. Of course, losing the Ring would change that. But in this hypothetical where he has Feanor to compete with, I think he would have avoided provoking Númenor, which would have precluded the formation of the Last Alliance. If Sauron had managed to keep the Ruling Ring, do you think he could eventually have regained sufficient strength to continue creating powerful artifacts and be a worthy rival of Feanor?

[@MikeTheD]

@@TheRedBook yes Feanor and that era are almost like an Adam and Eve period of innocence that is very unique and hard to judge on the merits alone, because they were the first. Hard to tell how History's experience would have crafted his reasoning, there was no History before him.

[@franklin519]

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul !!

[@Gurrehable]

Also, why does it rhyme in English? I always thought that was weird, but it seems that literally no one else has thought of it.

[@TheRedBook]

It's been discussed before on various sites. Things like that tend to be a consequence of the translator attempting to retain the feel of the original text. It happens quite often in translations of something like Beowulf for example.

[@Celtic1020]

So do men not have a written alphabet by the third age? I find that very odd. I feel like the hobbits have some written language but maybe I’m miss remembering.

[@vinyamar3604]

Yes Men did have a written alphabet but it was a mode of Tengwar. By the end of the Third age Westron is the “common speech” and alongside it there was a standardised mode of Tengwar. This is what the hobbits used day to day and also what the Red Book of Westmarch was written with. Hope this helps 👍🏻

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. I think everything is recorded from the start of the Shire Reckoning.

[@TheRedBook]

Well, like all others they use these scripts that existed. Men adopted Cirth and even Orcs did in their own way. Some Men would know Tengwar. Though, we have to remember that most Men would not be doing any writing at all!

[@quatreraberbawinner2628]

Kinda reminds me of Japanese and Chinese, they both use kanji but they have different meanings

[@SCScholar1]

Well sauron and his master Morgoth could corrupt existing creatures and not create new ones. They would know much about corrupting a writing system.

[@afromuggins8415]

Written in elvish but rhymes in common.

[@Shaden0040]

it uses elvish letters in the script of the black speech.

[@TheRedBook]

Did you watch my video at all?

[@agentcooper6361]

So here's a question. What language did Morgoth speak? There was no Black Speech at that time. Did he and his orcs and trolls and all his other servants speak the same Elvish toungue that the Valar taught to the Elves? The assumption must be yes, since no other language existed. Think about that for a sec.

[@TheRedBook]

We know much about Melkor. He would be able to effortlessly communicate telepathically, and it's safe to assume he would do this with the other Ainur. His 'native' tongue would be Valarin. One thing that is scarcely talked about when it comes to Melkor is that he was so proficient in language that he amazed all the Eldar and was said to have been unable to be bettered "scarce equalled even, by the poets and loremasters". Outdated text says he invented a language called Melkian, and this gives rise to thoughts of cruel Orkish dialects forming mixing it with other tongues. Still, Tolkien is clear that Melkor invented speech for servants.

[@agentcooper6361]

Well, that eases my mind a bit. It was pretty jarring trying to picture Melkor and his balrogs and orcs all speaking to each other in elegant Quenya. :-)

[@arcanecrisis]

It's the same as computers. Why do programs use binary? Because that's what works.

[@TheRedBook]

Kind of! Computers use binary because it's reliable and it lowers energy consumption from reduced circuitry. There are Ternary computers. Never thought I'd be talking work on my YT channel :D

[@arcanecrisis]

@@TheRedBook I once compared sauron to the world's top coder and hacker. Able to hack in, and gain control of critical infrastructure around middle earth using the program he created. The ring. Fun to compare.

[@keithcole8536]

Well if it was in the language of the ainor many wouldn't understand it even the elves

[@TheRedBook]

True! But we know the language was Black Speech and the script was Feanorian Tengwar

[@ramondejesus65]

It's not Elvish, it's the black speech of Mordor 🤔

[@TheRedBook]

Black Speech is a language, not a script. The script is an Elvish script.

[@vinyamar3604]

Yes, there’s a big difference between spoken language and written scripts. Think of cave men mumbling to each other …it evolves naturally, whilst a written script is set out methodically by one man (or in this case one Elf’s) original idea.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook All successful youtube channels have premature know-it-all comments, you are doing something right then 😁

[@TheRedBook]

@@Crafty_Spirit - haha, well I didn't take it so bad. Maybe a language barrier with the title of the video? I've had far worse comments from real know-it-alls :P

[@ramondejesus65]

@@Crafty_Spirit it's not a know it all comment, I just didn't understand exactly what he meant, it wasn't meant to trigger you, but as a question, relax 😅

[@madadaxxx]

Was it also because Sauron spent a long time in Eregion that he used elvish words?

[@istari0]

I would think Sauron knew the elvish tongues and the Tengwar script long before Eregion was founded. That was in the 2nd Age whereas the script and languages were created well before the 1st Age.

[@TheRedBook]

We don't really know. There are many reasons he could have used this particular script - closely associated with the Elves, a ring made to bind the Elves, it looked the nicest, it was an insult to the Elves.