The One Who Knew: Who First Realised Saruman Turned Evil?

[@erikabutler6893]

Gandalf did have a gut feeling about Saruman. In “The Shadow of the Past”, early on in his convo with Frodo, Gandalf says he might have asked Saruman about Bilbo’s ring, “but something always held me back.”

[@anaussie213]

Gandalf didn't trust the rings of power nor ring lore, while Saruman did (assume he could handle it). Put Gandalf off him.

[@toncek9981]

In context of other things what he says in that conversation, it can be also interpreted as Gandalf being simply afraid of the answer - he always had suspicions about the ring but persuaded himself into believing that Bilbo's ring couldn't be the One ring because he didn't want it to be. You may still be right, because he also didn't ask Saruman even in the later years when he was already actively looking for the answer, but then again, he didn't ask anyone of the wise for help, not even such loremaster as Elrond. It was only when he decided to find Gollum that he asked Aragorn. It's quite obvious that he wanted to keep the whole matter as secret as possible until he was actually sure it was the One ring.

[@darthparallax5207]

Not even the Elves could really be trusted.

[@midnightblue3285]

@@darthparallax5207 Maybe its not about trusting, it about the thoughts, actions, beheviors

[@MyVanir]

@@darthparallax5207 Less distrusted and more not wanting them to alert The Enemy with their actions. The likes of Elrond would be the first Sauron would think to monitor, so Gandalf kept it all to himself and tried his hardest to obfuscate his goals.

[@colindempsey470]

I was the first one to figure it out. Once i saw Christopher Lee, i was like "oh that dude is up to no good." I saw that opening weekend guys. I'm 42.

[@kg4wwn]

I figured it out years before that. I read the book and thought, "Saruman's name is too much like Sauron's, I bet he's a bad guy too."

[@mjpink23]

gandalf is good but second to saruman and as always 2nd must surpass the 1st so back then we knew saruman would turn bad for gandalf to be the 1st

[@colindempsey470]

@@kg4wwn Sarumon sounds like Sauron went reggae.

[@colindempsey470]

Lord of Splifs.

[@gizmod22]

Darklord have mercy

[@gemelindacjp7976]

Cirdan trusted Gandalf more than he did Saruman from the beginning, hence giving him a ring of power.

[@clean04si]

This act angered saruman greatly. And set him on a downward spiral of jealousy and betrayal.

[@ArionXeno]

Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council. Some of the eldar had great insight. I wonder if Galadriel had know Olorin (Gandalf) in the West when she was younger.

[@Ama-Elaini]

@@ArionXeno That's entirely possible, though Gandalf must have looked pretty different as Olórin back then.

[@mokeish]

Galadriel did not trust him the moment he came back from the east and he would not speak of his deeds to anyone after he returned around 2300TA, I always thought he killed the blue wizards, but I also always thought Gollum killed Frodos parents, which is one of the reasons Bilbo took him in, witnesses saw a struggle^^

[@jesperengelbredt]

@@DaniellaQueenB651 Why would Saruman kill Frodos parents many years before he had reason to even suspect the ring might be in The Shire and that Frodo was related to its bearer?

[@mariomachadofilho]

The valar need to launch a investigation into Aulë and all of his maiar

[@HakaoMortTan]

Aüle: "Why me!? Why!?"

[@anonymouslyopinionated656]

inherently linked to human creation and craft is the theme of human greed

[@yurypilipenko4280]

!!!!!

[@thestraightroad305]

This made me smile. It’s significant! I would like our host to analyze the students of Aule, Aule’s own temptation and repentance, and how he was different from his problematic apprentices.

[@Bozzin]

Feanor was a student of Aulë.

[@DemonicAdj]

The sad part is that Gandalf and Saruman wanted to be like one another but never showed it. Saruman admired Gandalf's ability to befriend others and even started smoking pipe weed in secret, to emulate him. Meanwhile, Gandalf saw Saruman as the wiser man, with a gift for public speaking, and would refuse leadership of the White Council because he thought Saruman was the better choice. Gandalf didn't know that Saruman wanted to be like him, and Saruman didn't realize that Gandalf would have never tried to take his leadership role. Paranoid over nothing.

[@mikeynth7919]

Listening to those two converse - Gandalf and Saruman - after both are properly drunk would have been hilarious! Imagine the jokes and limericks and rhymes "I've seen Lindon, and the Shire, and Galadriel's bras aren't underwire!"

[@ivandovranic5834]

I don't want to rebuke you too harshly, because Tolkien himself was open for reader's freedom of interpretation, but lorewise, what you say is completely unfounded. The only one with penchant for emulating other is Saruman, and that stems from degradation of his character. Throughout all of his shared history with Gandalf, he is haughty and overbearing. Even with the smoking pipe, he publicly regarded Gandalf with mockery while privately trying it, and eventually getting addicted to the smoke. The only one that Saruman really emulates, intentionally or not, is Sauron.

[@DemonicAdj]

@@ivandovranic5834 Fair enough. His foray into ringcraft is a much bigger example. Right, and the Uruk-hai. I don't know if he knew about the original version or if he just stumbled upon it trying to reduce their weaknesses.

[@Zzrik]

I think I read somewhere that Gandalf the white mentioned something about being what Saruman should have been like , essentially had Saruman not been corrupted then he would be just like Gandalf the white.

[@rockfordsolids5353]

hey there. why do you think he did not use his ring against Saruman in the battle at his tower? or did he not have it at that time? Or maybe he chose defeat and imprisonment over exposing it?

[@jespervalgreen6461]

You are a model of clarity of exposition, and your clear diction and proper enunciation lend an appropriate gravitas to Tolkien's words. I am instantly subscribed, and in awe of your treatment of the spoken language. Thank you.

[@djmikio]

Cirdan saw something that wasn't completely right when he chose Gandalf rather than Saruman to wield Narya.

[@GuukanKitsune]

More pointedly, he not only gave Narya to Gandalf instead of Saruman, he TOLD GANDALF TO TELL NO ONE HE HAD NARYA, NOT EVEN SARUMAN.

[@bastange8856]

@@GuukanKitsune I always read it that Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf because Cirdan saw in Gandalf the perfect wielder of Narya, someone who at his core wishes to protect and conserve and whom is both brave and steadfast. The reason Cirdan demanded secrecy is because the three elven ringbearers always maintained secrecy ever since being entrusted with one of the three, due to the advice and warnings of Cerebrimbor, their creator. I always believed that Cirdan wished to bestow the ring on a successor because Cirdan was, in his heart, getting ready to leave Middle Earth. Also, Cirdan might have been afraid that Sauron might have already suspected him of being one of the ringbearers. At the start of Here and Back Again the Grey Havens were much reduced in strength due to so many Elves sailing West for Aman. At that point, the Grey Havens were the weakest of the three remaining Elf Realms (not counting the Sindar of Mirkwood), and therefore the most likely target if Sauron wished to claim one of the Three. But maybe you are right and Cirdan sensed that Saruman already had the potential of jealousy and therefore adviced Gandalf not to share this secret with Saruman. It might have also been at the behest and/or warning of Galadriel, as she is the most likely to see the shadows of the heart. I would think that Cirdan and Galadriel would have given more warning if they truly believed Saruman was already evil though.

[@GuukanKitsune]

@bastange8856 It could be both, they aren't mutually exclusive. He recognized Saruman 100% could not be trusted, but wanted to pass Narya to someone who could wield it's power to good use. He settled on Gandalf for the reasons you described. However, Cirdan was NOT preparing to leave. He left with the Ringbearers and not before.. until then he remained in the Havens preparing ships so othe worldweary Elves might leave.

[@bastange8856]

@@GuukanKitsune You might have missed my point. Curunir's character simply didn't resonate with the power Narya stands for and therefore simply wasn't a good ringbearer of Narya to start with. Mithrandir was a perfect ringbearer, exuding all of the depths of character that resonate with Narya's power, being a desire to protect and conserve coupled with courage. Perhaps Cirdan foresaw. It seems more likely to me Cirdan was just a good judge of character and therefore picked the Maia he believed to be worthy of bearing Narya. Yet, as I already aknowleged, it could have been both indeed.

[@TheWokeWarlock]

I disagree with this assessment or assertion. Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf out of an affinity with his nature, not out of a dislike or lack of trust for Saruman. In other words, he gave Gandalf the ring because he decided a Maiar would be better suited to protect it, and Gandalf was chosen because he liked him. There is no mention that he distrusted Saruman. The only person that expressed actual distrust of Saruman was Galadriel, who openly favored Gandalfs council and friendship. Something that rankled Saruman.

[@cerberus6654]

Yet another brilliant, stirring and deeply insightful post! These are exceptionally good. One thing, though, there was another who perceived Saruman had changed and darkened. That was Treebeard. Though when exactly is not said, Treebeard realized Saruman was no longer a friend and had become a dangerous and destructive neighbour. Although Treebeard also doesn't say that he perceived Saruman had become infected with Sauronitis, he knew where evil in Middle Earth was emanating from. And yet, none of the Wise bothered to ask what he thought.

[@darthparallax5207]

Treebeard was believed to be either sleeping or even destroyed when Sauron burned most of the old reaches of his Forest that used to run through Dunland and Enedwaith up to Hollin. Treebeard's realm was destroyed and passed into myths of Men and the Elves stopped going there. They didn't realize he survived and perhaps Saruman did not tell them.

[@rcnyoplait]

Sauronitis 👏

[@cerberus6654]

@@darthparallax5207 That's sums up the Elves. Don't talk to strangers, don't leave home, bar the doors. Galadriel didn't seemed surprised when she finally met up with Treebeard though, so I suspect that the wisest of the Elves knew full well he was still alive. The Elves were terrible snobs though. They considered the Wild Men not much better than animals. They paid no attention to the Hobbits. They held a low opinion of Dwarves. The Noldor looked down on the Sindar. And they all made sweeping, often contemptuous generalisations about Men.

[@Darkwintre]

Radagast I would have picked to have suspected as he didn't need to check back on Gandalf but he did and resulted in Gandalf's rescue which was pivotal and Saruman was blindsided.

[@gemelindacjp7976]

Gandalf asked Radagast to send any important news to him at Isengard.

[@jacksoncurtain9612]

I totality think Radagast knew about Sarumans turn before Gandalf did. The nature he was tuned into would have told him.

[@littlefoot5013]

The book explains what happened with Radagast. He was NOT on Saruman's side. In fact, he was used by Saurman to lure Gandalf into a trap, but the trick ended up unknowingly backfiriing on Saurman. Saurman said that Radagast was just fool enough to go along with it and think Saurman was meaning well. However, Radagast also told one of the eagles to go meet with Saurman and Gandalf at Isengard or something, and that's actually how Gandalf got out of Isengard.

[@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860]

@@littlefoot5013 it was to let them know that the nine crossed the river. Thats why he was late and didn't met Frodo in Bree, in fact, the whole fight at the peak was after returning from Isengard. Gandalf got to Rivendel just a day or two before Frodo, and was already set to go catch him in the road (Elrond already dispatched scouts to look for him, thats how Glorfindel met them). The only issue was that Aragorn was out of the loop. He met him long before leaving Rivendel in his original trip to the Shire when he confirmed the Ring's true identity, and never saw him again, so much so that he didn't even knew that Gandalf shoulded been in Bree.

[@KoiKoy56]

He didn't RANDOMLY check on him though... Gandalf specifically requested that he acquire information for him and to send it to him there. They were there to pass on what they had learned, and he happened to need rescue, so they rescued him.

[@Nick-zp3ub]

Cirdan, radagast and treebeard would have suspected that saruman had something unsavoury about him. It’s probably the reason saruman held radagast in such contempt

[@stevensolomon9512]

It’s perhaps also worth noting that Saruman never had a chance to mislead Aragorn with his voice, whereas Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, and the other members of the White Council met with Saruman and thus listened to his deceptive words. He used those opportunities to allay their fears.

[@persebra]

Galadriel told Aragon. could have sworn i heard Galadriel wanted to make Gandolf the head of the white council but he turned it down.

[@stevensolomon9512]

@, I thought Galadriel was overruled. I could be wrong, but I don’t recall Gandalf actually being offered leadership of the White Council.

[@charlotteinnocent8752]

Neither Cirdan nor, especially, Galadriel trusted Sauruman long before that. And Galadriel was also someone Aragorn spent time with. Aragorn might have gotten an idea of Sauruman from her!

[@LunaSinger]

This is excellent, and a delight! So nice to see theories immediately backed by quotes. Also, it is extremely well put together. You have an easy flow of words, ideas and artwork with music behind. Thank you so much. I am now a subscriber and look forward eagerly to more of your good work. Incidentally, I don't know where you got this voice, but it's perfect!

[@philmace81]

You translated Thorongil exactly correct. I posited the same translation a few months ago and was beset with trolls telling me I got it wrong. Good on you for keeping up the lore

[@travisblack9519]

If you had argued with them until sunrise you would have won that debate for sure.

[@philmace81]

@ I really worried if my use of Troll was too close to a pun and would come back to bite me in the ass. 🤣

[@aikcastle5043]

I think the council had an inkling about Saruman's treachery but they just swept it under the rug because they wanna be real certain about it and that they all could afford time as they are basically immortal. On the other hand, Aragorn, albeit him having a longer life than most humans is still mortal and could not afford to take things slow. Plus, he's kingly, wise, steadfast, courageous and discerning and wouldn't let what he saw or experience go by...

[@KorrinBeck]

Close but no.

[@skatemetrix]

I think Galadriel had doubts because she wanted Gandalf to be Head of the White Council. While Cirdan, when he first met Gandalf as Gandalf arrived to Middle Earth for the first time, offered Gandalf the Ring of Fire, Narya. This meant Galadriel and Cirdan trusted Gandalf above all the other wizards and so doubting the faithfulness and commitment of the others.

[@legomaster9190]

I'm just in awe how beautiful the writings of Tolkien sound when read outloud! Thanks for including those passages into the video! In the years I've been talking with others and learning about the things of Middle-Earth, not a single time did this thought about someone actually knowing of Saruman's turning, cross my mind. But I must say, I'm so happy it was Aragorn who was the one to do so, even though Gandalf had suspicions and maybe a few others, too. Also, it's so nice and cool to see how these things that occur in the time period of the Lord of the Rings are so strongly tied to things, people and overall legacy of those who came before. I took special noting when speaking of Aragorn's gifts..

[@charlesjmouse]

Closenesss may foster familiarity, but sometimes a little distance can lend perspective. The measure of a man may be seen in the footprint he leaves, in the results of his actions. Take care with anyone who is regularly required to explain themselves including yourself, words should not need to cover for deeds.

[@lhadzyan7300]

Another one which might have foreseen some trouble about Saruman trust-loyalty helping against Sauron, was also Galadriel who actually wanted Gandalf being the leader of the White Council pretty much the same way of words making him resentfull and got envy about the trust gifted to him as Varda also kinda foretold that he wasn´t gonna be the third in relevance when the Istari got selected and arranged in a way to Saruman go first place, one Blue Wizard on second place and Gandalf on third, though he was able to act alone as both Saruman and the Blue Wizard got some secondary companions yet interacted differently regarding them as Saruman was very at odds with Radagast, whereas the two Blue Wizards got very fine together [one choose the other willingly to help him alongside as they seem to have acted always before].

[@rmarieshen862]

Galadriel was the first one I thought of. I think she predated Cirdan?

[@jesoko6724]

@@rmarieshen862 well, that depends on what you mean by predated. In terms of age- Cirdan is far older than Galadriel. He’s one of the elves of the host of Elwe (Thingol) and woke up with the first elves at the dawn of their time. He’s said to be so old, he’s one of the few to actually show age and is bearded. Galadriel, on the other hand, was born far in the West after the elves made their Great Journey and could have known both Saruman and Gandalf when they were still Curumo and Olorin. She would have met them first, since Cirdan never sailed into the West until after Aragorn died.

[@lhadzyan7300]

@@rmarieshen862 No Cirdan is older tan her! But she kinda is older than her husband Celeborn, to which I think you got confused on, neverthless it´s never clearly fully acknowledged the true origin of him, as on The Silmarillion he is indeed a younger close relative to Thingol, thus a Sindarin Elve, whereas on the Unfinished Tales story it seems he is closer in age to her and came alongside from Valinor to Middle-Earth, getting contradictory origins and ages on them. But Cirdan has always been the oldest of Elves, yet it doesn´t seems he ever got into issues with Galadriel, neither distrusted Saruman particulary earlier on, just he acknowledged the great relevance of Gandalf before all, and maybe see through his cover as Istari on his true identity he might have known in the past as Olorin.

[@edpistemic]

Galadriel too. She wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council; she must have sensed some deficit in Saruman. Even earlier, Manwe (and/or Varda, I don't remember precisely) were suspicious: while Curunir was keen to go on the mission, Olorin had to be persuaded or even ordered by them. The Elder King and Queen didn't want Curunir being left to his own devices in Middle Earth.

[@JuggoJuggo]

Galadriel may have wanted Gandolf because of her own ambitions, he may have been viewed as less of an obstacle.

[@wolf2965]

There is an argument to be made that the fact that Gandalf was the mostly openly pro-elven might have played a role in Galadriel's choices: Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, and others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales. Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smithcraft. *Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves*. (Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age")

[@jacobfreeman5444]

I think why Aragorn distrusted Saruman is pretty simple. Aragorn was a born king. He was to his core a leader worthy of uniting the land. And being a good judge of character part of that. I think he didn't have a prophecy about Saruman so much as he saw clearly the nature of Saruman's desires. That Saruman wished to be a ruler, a leader...but didn't have the talent for it. So understood Saruman could fall to the same temptation others like him have. Not that Saruman had already but that Saruman was flawed in a way that could make him a threat. It was just a king's caution to not trust a bad leader.

[@genovayork2468]

Saruman wasn't a leader?

[@pneumarian]

@@genovayork2468 I could see an agrument for him being a sociopathic manager rather than a leader.

[@TheSolarium18]

@@genovayork2468How good of a leader do you think he would have been for others than orcs in times which are not war? Not that good right? He can only lead the mindless or the incited

[@genovayork2468]

@@TheSolarium18 Good in fact, mpron.

[@tomreid9076]

I've read LotR over and over again and never spotted many of the points you use to illustrate your thesis. Masterly work, thank you!

[@MrAnderson12345]

We greatly appreciate your work and toil to give us this gold, keep em coming good sir

[@matthewronsson]

Exceptionally well done.

[@terryrasmussen6409]

Thanks!

[@RealmsUnravelled]

Thanks for supporting the channel it's very kind of you! 🙂

[@frankcoulter220]

Gandalf might have thought Saruman was just being a jerk, right up till the time he was imprisoned at Orthanc.

[@MythologicalStories-q1z]

Exactly! Gandalf likely saw Saruman’s arrogance and dismissiveness as typical behavior for someone consumed by pride. It wasn’t until Saruman revealed his true intentions and imprisoned him at Orthanc that Gandalf fully understood the depth of his betrayal.

[@ethandarcy5940]

It's the same weakness in Gandalf as gets us to re-elect politicians.

[@MythologicalStories-q1z]

@@ethandarcy5940 Interesting comparison! Gandalf's faith in the potential for redemption and trust in others does sometimes mirror our tendency to give second chances, even when it might not be entirely justified.

[@martialme84]

Aragorn. This video takes a whole long ass time to say: Aragorn.

[@astormofwrenches5555]

Thanks.

[@londonfog2301]

I have a theory that saruman abandoned the blue wizzards during a crucial moment in the east. Knowingly leaving them to their fate in his pursuit of the Ring

[@gregbors8364]

“I knew it was you, all along, -Fredo- Saruman”

[@Rayden333-y7e]

Just watched Godfather cuople of days ago😂😂😂

[@krauterz]

big fan. have you considered narrating one/some of the books? you have one of those voices and a way of speaking that would make a book narration extremely compelling to listen to.

[@barriethurlow6519]

Thank you very much! I liked the way you brought a touch of Robert Stephens into Aragorn's voice.

[@rustybrooks8916]

I think Perhaps he was wise to simply not trust anything that seems too good to be true. It's kind of a running theme in Tolkien's stories from what I can tell, as well as in many other stories and is also highly applicable to life.

[@justtomman]

Aragorn was no mere man. He was the embodiment of humanity's pure spirit. He was everything that we can be. Wise beyond his years, brave and more loyal to his friends then any. The best, the greatest of man. A stalwart beacon of defiance aginst evil. The bestest of characters.

[@mr.s2005]

belief that Saurman started undermining Rohan during Theoden's father's reign. Aragorn must have seen something in the works during his service to Rohan

[@rodvr_ptEng]

Congratulations for your effort! Best regards

[@Whatisright]

Aragorn is a tactician and his life is dedicated to defending and protecting people and country. It was probably a matter of him questioning himself why certain decisions were made or things that happened that to him screamed betrayal from a tactical perspective. If you and yours are doing all you all can to defeat the greatest evil ever, then when certain visible individuals do certain things, it might stand out. Because it’s making what you have to do harder.

[@tsuchan]

Not sure about this. Aragorn (Thorongil) recommended Gandalf because he was a personal friend. It doesn't mean he sussed Saruman as a traitor. Had he done so, presumably he would have discussed it with his friend, Gandalf.

[@isegrimhhvombodensee4971]

I totally agree with those, who wrote here about the suspects of Cirdan and Galadriel against Samuran and their larger trust in Gandalf. Additionally, one has to take into account, that as well Aragorn was very familiar with Gandalf due to Gandalf‘s many travels and visits at places, where Aragorn was to find too (the Dunedain of the North, Rivendell, Lothlorien, …). This way Aragorn was more attached to Gandalf and his way of thinking and acting just from the beginning: sure Aragorn would admire and appreciate Gandalf‘s humble, but determined style in helping others much more than Saruman‘s downlooking way, how he claimed to know better than all the others, being the leader of the white council. Even if Aragorn wouldn‘t have feeled or foreseen, that Saruman might become a traitor, he would have recommended Gandalf‘s advices to Ecthelion, as I suppose.

[@vojtechpribyl7386]

The thing with Aragorn was that he was a nobody under his disguise. Saruman was concerning himself with the grand scheme and maintaining his guise in relation to those who he knew to wield power and the Dunedain were not the great army that once was. With more layers of secrecy around Aragorn there were more important things for Saruman to pay attention to. So he couldn't play his masquerade when he didn't even know that he was being observed by watchful and knowing eyes.

[@jamesc5751]

"Surely Saruman wouldnt try to raise an army at Isengard,,, he's a wizard and knows all about the murder trees that'll wreck everything if anyone starts messing with their stuff" -- the Gondoreans, probably.

[@scrabtr67]

This was fantastic! Thanks.

[@ObjectiveObserver]

That's a great analysis. I'm just wondering though, why Aragorn wouldn't have shared his suspicions with Gandalf. "Yo, G! Dude's evil!" Might have been good to tip him off.

[@Perktube1]

My first thought was Cirdan, the shipright.

[@charlotteinnocent8752]

Yes, and also Galadriel. Who could easily have influenced Aragorn's opinion of Sauruman.

[@kevintotte4159]

I love to play your vids on the background while doing some work, awesome to stay focussed

[@evelynvongizycki1017]

I also wondered if Saruman worked extra hard to conceal his evil in front of the white council but then let down his guard around Rohan and other humans not believing that there was anyone who had any foresight or great knowledge around because Aragorn’s true nature had been hidden so effectively.

[@flxhr5855]

Great! You are truly a Saruman expert

[@brianjohnson5272]

It could ge argued Aule and his maiar are more susceptible to corruption than others. Aule if I recall made the dwarves without Eru's leave or knowledge until he was finished. Most of the Balrogs were corrupted fire spirits and most of those would be in Aule's sphere of influence (Yavanna and Ulmo probably had 0 of them). Saruman was of Aule's group and it seemed he fell between the Fall of Numenor and his entry onto middle earth. Cirdan, the oldest of the middle earthen elves before elves made it to Aman saw this being as unworthy of a ring of power so he saw some flaw or corruption before Saruman got to the east. Galadriel saw something as well when she put Gandalfs name in the ring as leader of the white council.

[@infernalone666]

A very common thread in Tolkien is that the path to darkness is ambition - especially without direction. Aule had a lot of ambition and was eager and impatient to create things in arda, so he created the dwarves before the elves had a chance to awaken. But aule had humility, so he didn't become another melkor All of his maiar were like that - eager and inquisitive. Under aule, they were crafters and inventors, and the inventor judges their creations on their usefulness. Sauron and saruman extended that to people. Soon, both thought they can dominate people like they were just constructs - after all.....were the elves, men and dwarves not also "creations"?

[@Mentallect]

Cirdan may have suspected Saruman wasn't honorable, but Sauron first knew for sure Saruman was evil.

[@ADR-x4d]

As usual a cracking video, and a cut above others.

[@papalaz4444244]

Mairon and Curumo were both Maiar of Aulë. Both studied ringcraft together. But who suspected Saruman would go rogue and take Sauron's side? I am going to say Eru Iluvatar knew that before everyone else.

[@ChargeQM]

Technically, Eru would have designed his world so that Saruman would fall, taking the ever-present dissonance of Melkor and weaving beauty from it.

[@papalaz4444244]

@@ChargeQM Exactly what I said, then.

[@chamuuemura5314]

@papalaz4444244 You did but KZbin hides the last sentence. Good point. His path was by nature destructive and as such couldn’t persist even had he succeeded.

[@TarMody]

Sauron's motivation for order, which comes from his nature and forms the basis of his character, gave him a utopian ideal within the framework of his mission to improve Middle-earth. Similarly, Saruman had the ideal of defeating Sauron by possessing the One Ring within the scope of the fight against Sauron. In this context, it is understood that Saruman also approached Sauron's ideal of order. Since the ideal of order essentially requires control and domination, it requires the suppression and elimination of free will. This reflects the evil nature of the ideal.

[@maskedmarvyl4774]

It was Cirdan that first discerned Saruman's true nature.

[@Adamadam-zc6pe]

Aragorn did not know that Saruman was becoming evil. There is no text stating that. He more so counseled Ecthelion the trust in Gandalf most likely because of Gandalfs propensity for action against an obviously growing darkness. Whereas Saruman seemed to always stall and take no action. Aragorn and Gandalf were great friends and there is no way in hell Aragorn wouldn’t have shared some secret inside knowledge of noticeable darkness within him. The entirety of the white council didn’t see the evil, only delay. Galadriel was said to be the most perceptive being in middle earth, able to perceive the hearts and minds of anyone. No way Aragorn picked it up before her. Nobody knew. That’s the whole point. It was shocking and unprecedented

[@RealmsUnravelled]

Hi thanks for the comment! Obviously I disagree 😂 Aragorn was so sure that Saruman was not to be trusted that he warned the man who was ruling his kingdom for him not to trust the Maia (akin to an angel) who was sent by the Valar to help them. He would not risk Gondor's fate unless he was absolutely sure. That's strong evidence from the text that he perceived of Sarumans future treachery. Galadriel on the other hand was happy to appoint Saruman as head of the white council, after Gandalf refused, and to follow Sarumans lead when deciding what to do about Sauron and the ring. And we know from the fact that she openly rejected Annatar that she isn't shy about letting it be known when she percieves that one who claims to be sent by the Valar isn't to be trusted. She did not do this with Saruman. Perhaps it was the power of Sarumans voice that even she could not resist?

[@Adamadam-zc6pe]

@ hey thanks for the response! And I totally understand your point. I’m merely stating that while Aragorn may have counseled against Saruman for whatever reasons, I highly doubt he perceived his future fall into evil. He may have feared delay and inaction rather than evil intentions and I don’t find anything in the text that directly suggests that he did. Especially given how many other far wiser beings didn’t sense the evil in Saruman, Though they may have disagreed with him. I also don’t believe the voice of Saruman was potent enough to persuade the whole white council when it wasn’t enough to persuade Theoden in Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Aragorn wouldn’t have taken direct action in a larger way against Saruman if he perceived such evil.

[@tominiowa2513]

Galadriel would not have been able to perceive the mind of Eru, nor comprehend the odd decisions he makes.

[@dixieflatline1189]

Radagast's actions prevented Sauron from defeating Gandalf. He also saved Mirkwood and the Fellowship - ensuring the ringbearer continued his quest. For a side character that had a few pages, he was powerful.

[@maryeckel9682]

He also had a party line with the Eagles and other birds.

[@nhansen197]

I think I can guess why Aragorn did not trust Saruman. Of all the wizards, Saruman was the only one to set himself up as a Prince of the land.

[@pryzmcat]

Cirdan was the first..however , Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe probably knew which way Curunir would lean, and perhaps Manwe himself. Both Curunir and Sauron were Maia of Aule..

[@His_Name_Was_King]

Very surprised Lord Elrond and Galadriel couldn't see it...but maybe he put on a better show because of that.

[@MultiChris178]

Lord elrond I'm sure didn't expect though I feel like galadriel maybe did in some way

[@UGTLDG]

Aragorn was also a human, the wisest of his time, but a human none the less. And as Men are described as the most deceitful of the fair creatures, they were also the most inherently mistrusting of them all. Perhaps that's why Istari, Elves and even Dwarves were more trustful to Saruman than Men. IMHO Aragorn was wise enough to see treachery, but Man enough to look for it in the first place.

[@thevulgarone4]

In the movie Return of the King, Aragorn has a vision of the King of the Demott when Elrond presents Andul to him and even though that meeting never happened in the book, I think Jackson illustrated that perfectly.

[@Subo23]

Another great episode. Saruman's story is truly tragic.

[@Douglas.Scott.McCarron]

Gandalf had deep spiritual insight to see who Saruman really was. That and he read the script.

[@goon1500ify]

Cirdan the ship right who gave gandalf his elvin fire ring 💍 knew that Saruman would turn towards the darkness. Saruman was extremely jealous he didn't receive that ring instead of Gandalf and always held that against him . Saruman's resentment was so great he focused nearly all his time to learn how to forge his own magic Ring and he eventually did !

[@mtlbstrd]

Exactly content, my man. Subbed!

[@cliffgulliver4626]

Clicked and subscribed. Thanks for the video.

[@antiincumbent]

Well done! I thoroughly enjoyed this video. SUBBED!

[@SlideRulePirate]

1:27 _You may think you're cool..., but you'll never be *'An Eagle is my Uber'* cool.

[@LeroyL113]

Love the content keep it coming! Your voice works for these kind of things 🫡 Me and the wife rewatched the extended editions last month and sinds star wars is dead I thought this year ill focus on more rings lore thats how I stubeld on your videos. Never wanted to read the book because I love the movies. But couple of days ago I talked with my fater inlaw about the movies and he gifted his copie of the book to me! Love reading it. And the fun part is this books was printed in 1991 so just like me its now 33 years old. Just as old when frodo got the ring 😂 it was ment to be for me to start reading after al these years 😂😂

[@victoriakidd-cromis1124]

Saruman had the tendancy toward evil even before the wizards were sent by the Valar. Why? Because even then he was jealous of how much the Valar were impressed by Gandalf. Once in Middle-earth Galadriel did not trust Saruman, though she could not give a reason for it. As for Aragorn, it is his own innate personality and ability to judge people that led him to distrust Saruman.

[@princekalender2154]

What an amazing episode!

[@quitwastinmytime]

I'd say it had to be Galadriel. She had seen it all from her kin and also had her own intense pride that she battled with for ages. She would have understood Saruman and been able to emphisize with his ambition.

[@47streetcop96]

The whole story is chronicled in the historical documentary "The Rings of Power"...

[@samwisegamgee8318]

Love this channel!

[@rhyhaggen336]

Aule created the dwarvenfolk, for he desired to bring life, against the ruling of Iluvatar... From him, his maia just followed in his footsteps... Gandalf feared Sauron & didn't want to come unless there was no other choice... This is why Cirdan opted to not give the ring to another of Aules maia, & Gandalf kept the ring henceforth, & used it only as last resort... Never giving into power...

[@LegendsofTheRing7]

Love the BG music. I wonder where these kind of theme music can be found. Brilliant production nevertheless

[@Ulfcytel]

Another thing - Aragorn, as a descendant of Melian, himself had Maiar blood. One wonders if this gave him extra insight into other beings of that class, such as Saruman, Gandalf and even Sauron? Might also be the source of the prophetic power you mention, an echo of having heard the primordial song of creation.

[@bb001a]

Galadriel probably perceived a Feanor vibe from Saruman.

[@chrish1585]

Cirdan knew first!! That's why he gave Gandalf the ring of fire!!

[@jameshiggins-thomas9617]

If there was so much information in the East, then there is a story we have missed (and will never know) as much must have been happening there.

[@sirguy6678]

Excellent video!

[@shari5982]

Interesting. My first guess was Cirdan, second Galadriel, third Gandalf. I think they certainly had their suspicions. I haven’t yet read the Unfinished Tales, though.

[@georgehugh3455]

*Logically, Saruman's decision to stall at the White Council doesn't make much sense:* - If he was still good, time was of the essence to hit Sauron while he was still weak. - If he was turning evil or at least ambitious, still best to hit Sauron while he's down...the Ring wasn't trying to get back to Saruman. He'd have plenty of time, post-Sauron, to look for it (while riding a wave of gratitude from the denizens of Middle Earth), or simply consolidate power and rule as the most dominating being without it. Maybe make his own talisman later.

[@jamesnoe7378]

Great job very good video🎉🎉🎉

[@jans724]

As soon as you see Christopher Lee you know there's evil about.

[@philmace81]

Every time I watch HIGFNY and Charlie Booker is hosting I thing “oh, that’s the guy that does LOTR videos on KZbin”

[@ColonelPanic007]

Very well done!

[@IDPhotoMan]

Great video - new subscriber

[@JVHorvath1]

lest we forget; aragorn had a ring of power himself 🤷🏼‍♂️. he could feel the darkness of sauron through that ring.

[@queenlip6152]

Saruman was caught & twisted by Sauron while using the palantir to keep check of the dark lord. Anyone would have fallen. Even Galadriel accepted that she would have turned corrupt had she accepted Frodo's offer to take the one ring. Even Frodo felt the heavy burden of just carrying the ring. And, he gave in to corruption at the last moment but was saved by Golem biting his finger off.

[@logansfury]

At the intro point, I want to make a prediction for fun, and I am thinking Galadriel, due to her support for Gandalf over Saruman for leadership of the White Council. But then I can't help seeing the first displayed comment in which Cirdan is mentioned and that makes me rethink. Cirdan withheld the ring of fire (and I assume mention of it) to all 4 of the Istari that came before Gandalf. Yet to Gandalf he not only revealed his possession of the ring, he surrendered it to him. I have to say this trumps Galadriel's political support for Gandalf! Very excited now to continue the video and see what it has to reveal.

[@cj88macleod]

Why couldn’t Galadriel read his mind? Because even Tolkien didn’t think of everything.😂

[@mithrane]

Gandalf was sent against his initial desires because Sauroman was distrusted by the Valar. EVERYONE distrusted Sauroman's eagerness and desire to gather power in emulation of Sauron.

[@Dave.Weiss.]

This is now THE best channel for lore on the net. Brilliant.

[@papalaz4444244]

Imagine how angry Saruman was when he spent ages making his own magic ring in a huff, because he didn't get an Elven one, and it was rubbish.

[@thechadchud]

As a matter of fact, it was Treebeard who first knew.

[@travisblack9519]

Pretty sure wormtongue knew before any of them.

[@thechadchud]

@@travisblack9519 Wormtongue wasn't even born when Treebeard knew.

[@ilg304]

Hello from Japan 🇯🇵

[@theredranger9723]

Love the channel

[@rcnyoplait]

This is so good.

[@natmanprime4295]

Interesting. Good stuff

[@jackluminous6024]

Gandalf had a love for hobbits and pipeweed. That's all I need to know.

[@brucehamm2072]

I feel like radagast had suspicions about saruman and saruman couldn't sway him I believe that is why saruman hated him so much

[@maryeckel9682]

Radagast was too pure, and too good a follower of Yavanna, to ever like Saruman.

[@Rorschachqp]

Galadriel had a feeling too.