The Ongoing FGC "Cheating" Situation

[@Baldthazar]

Directional inputs should be done with a dance pad and attack inputs should be done with Wii remote & nunchuck. Any other methods of playing fighting games are clearly cheating.

[@itztlacoliuhqui]

That actually sounds fun asf

[@uwufemboy5683]

Ken players’ legs would be TONED with this ruleset, my god

[@Nekotamer]

obviously, at least i find someone based on the internet.

[@andreasbernardi3654]

GAWD DANG IT! YESS! 🤣

[@NimhLabs]

Finally a gameplay option to rival Pole-Caliber!

[@PkOrPvp]

I started playing fighting games as a way to cope with my divorce back in the day due to cheating and when I actually got into it, Aris was the one person that I really got to enjoy watching. Thanks to him being there to give me lots of encouragements and laughs, I decided to get serious with fighting games, especially Tekken, and paid $200 for a real arcade stick to enter some locals. I was pretty good online but I really wanted to prove myself out there in the real world. Once covid restrictions eased up, I headed off to my first local and I was surprised to know I made it to grand finals with my arcade stick, everyone was so nice too. Unfortunately, my final opponent was on winners side and when I sat down next to him, I saw that he was using a hitbox. I did not think too much about it at this time because pro hitbox players weren't winning any majors. However, when I started playing the guy, he was doing ridiculous Kazuya combos consistently, all the ones requiring frame perfect inputs. The guy swept my ass, no round brown town, and I was happy I made it this far so I went to shake his hand and how was he so good. He brings me in closer to whisper in my ear: "It's simple really. My hitbox has a built-in macro to do perfect KBD and EWGF's, but no one is going to prove that. Hitbox is for cheaters and it feels good to win". He then walked over to grab the $50 prize winnings and ran off to make out with my ex-wife in the audience. I was left speechless. Hitbox needs to be banned

[@KusanagiMotoko100]

Haha

[@PkOrPvp]

@@KusanagiMotoko100 what’s so funny !?!!!??

[@KusanagiMotoko100]

@@PkOrPvp I will use this as a copypasta.

[@harrylane4]

damn I can’t believe your ex wife is why it’s called a cheatbox

[@PkOrPvp]

@@KusanagiMotoko100 hehe

[@Brian_F]

70% of viewers not subbed huh? should've dropped that stat in the first minute. Good vid.

[@SpartanOfLuxon]

I found Nephew from your youtube videos. Your advice truly works on building an audience.

[@genejas]

FGC KZbin coach brian_f over here

[@PomadaGaming]

Yo

[@heythatsme5000]

Brian f the big brained youtube man showing his superiority here

[@InvertID]

Mr twitter guy who occasionally do youtube! What are you doing here

[@Duskraven377]

Shows you how influential Daigo is. Hitbox is around for the longest time, the refuse to make rulings. Daigo announces he’s bringing a leverless controller to specifically abuse the lack of rules, and they convene an emergency meeting.

[@noBody-ue6cs]

Makes the argument about how if it isn’t against the rules it’s okay seem kinda wrong. It’s against the rules till someone abuses it enough is more like it.

[@fezzes428]

he did it intentionally so that it gets banned. he was never really going to switch during a tourney.

[@snakkattakk]

Tbf he's already been using one. He was abusing the lack of socd prevention in sf4 to do a bunch of crazy s*** in tournaments, like walking charge inputs etc

[@lncstr01]

He needs crutch controllers to win

[@Jadedx_]

It’s just a controller, if it were that much of an advantage people still wouldn’t be using pad or stick and winning tournaments. These kids act like using hit box is steroids/PEDs , it allows you to do some moves that would otherwise be very difficult and sometimes impossible. Like guile’s flash kick stuff that you can do easier with a hb. However, it still doesn’t give you the knowledge, reaction times, neutral etc. it allows you to do some moves easier or moves that would be near impossible to do with a stick on a charge character. He still uses stick btw and only uses HB for Guile, which would be dumb if you weren’t using HB for any charge character at this point. To say he uses controllers to crutch is hilarious, it reminds me of the dudes that say everyone at tournaments should have to play with stick bc pad directionals allow things that are impossible on a stick/lever. Grow up, dorks. The switches and shenanigans he did earlier on that custom HB was so that tournaments were forced to regulate what was allowed on a HB . He had no intention of using it

[@colbyboucher6391]

My take: Devs just need to accept that they're in a world where people can play on keyboards and account for it. Restricting how people can play is a stupid solution and just prevents some people from getting into the competitive scene.

[@colbyboucher6391]

@@bradejensen There are pros who use controllers. Most fighters today *are* designed around them. Fightsticks are popular because they're fun to use and people grew up on them, not because they're objectively better. Just use a controller. Don't gear gate yourself.

[@vaguedreams]

All Competitive sports all have rules regarding gear that's allowed and not allowed. It's the reason you don't see goalies in hockey rocking sticks that are hip height and about four feet wide or rock gloves that have built in butterfly nets. The tournament scene just needs to come together and nail down the rules if they want their e-sport to be a legitimate sport. The devs did not design their games with the hitbox in mind, or that is how they would have been released in the arcade. Any piece of kit that has it's own level of software to modify what happens when multiple inputs are put in simultaneously is, well, taking the skill out of it. It can't even be fixed at the game programming level because the SOCD is usually built into the controller so the game wouldn't see it. The devs do not want to alienate their most fervent fan base by telling them their 200 dollar controller is now a paperweight. So they keep quiet about it.

[@InsidiousOne]

@@bradejensen the problem is that the modern gamepad design is extremely unergonomic and anachronistic. Using two thumbs to control a d-pad and two NES buttons is ok. Using two thumbs to operate around 12 control elements on a face panel is atrocious. The gamepad-centrism actually holds down the progress of the game design - just look at some formerly PC-exclusive series, and how they got to be dumbed down when they got to consoles.

[@sakuyarules]

You can do most of the hitbox stuff on a regular controller. It wasn't really covered in this video, but there were pros (besides Daigo) who used to hold left on the controller joystick, then tap right on the d-pad, and get instant sonic booms; that's just one example.

[@hia5235]

Pros dont seem to agree about that Chico.

[@BigDaddyWes]

You have a lack of understanding that I don't think it's worth explaining when all of the information is readily available.

[@autoteleology]

@@BigDaddyWes Thanks for announcing your superiority to everyone while providing zero information or value to anyone, we really need more people like you commenting pointless filler.

[@Miriam_J_]

It doesn't matter if *most* can be done on a stick. The fact of the matter is that you can't do everything on all controllers. That means you are inherently at an advantage. No one should have a controller advantage like that in something like a fighting game, it just plainly isn't fair to ask people to fork out money for a controller they'd only use for one type of game to have equal footing. Is it cheating? Not inherently. If you're using it for better movement and more consistency, sure, go crazy. If you're using it to guarantee cheap stuff, that's kinda lame.

[@Fddlstxx]

not sure if you're trolling, or just don't fundamentally understand the mechanics at play. here's an example. let's say a shoe came out that could make you get air like m jordan in his prime. let's say a bunch of people started using it at the highest level, & suddenly tons of people were playing at super physiological levels. your argument is akin to "well, zach lavine does this, couple other guys too."

[@DylanMatthewTurner]

For me, I didn't grow up w/ arcades or much access to video games, so I had 0 proficiency with pad and stick. This means that to get into fighting games, I didn't just have to learn fundies and neutral and combos and all that, I also have to learn just how to use a controller. Quarter circle? DP? Not possible for me to do with those methods. It would take more practice just to do a single special move than anything else in a fighting game. A hitbox is basically a keyboard tho, which IS something I can use, so it's basically the only reason I've been able to get into fighting games, and without hitboxes, I wouldn't have learned stick; I just would've given up. I can actually play and practice fighting games bc I have an input that's comfortable to me. I don't think it's fair to take that away bc of a handful of tricks you can do with them. Instead, if it's a truly meta-desteoying exploit, we should think up a way to restrict it, not throw out the entire control scheme.

[@tongpoo8985]

I dont think anyone is saying to ban them from casual play just from tournaments

[@b1slee267]

This is equivalent to elite controllers for FPS games over normal controllers. You have settings/ functions that give you the advantage .

[@bigboee415]

And cross playing consoles against PC, PC clearly has advantage. Pay to win

[@via_negativa6183]

it's not really comparable in my opinion it's the difference between doing something faster and doing something impossible which is what the Hitbox allows you to do.

[@alicepbg2042]

@@via_negativa6183 nothing you do in hitbox is impossible.

[@alicepbg2042]

@@bradejensen you can do it on both keyboard and pad

[@alicepbg2042]

@@bradejensen you can still push both opposing directions on a regular pad. so not impossible by definition.

[@BigDaddyWes]

It's just so crazy that this conversation comes back up like every year. It's a well known thing and there's nothing more to be said about it that people haven't been saying for like over a decade.

[@whyareyoulookingatthislol]

in counter strike bunnyhop and kz, people argue whether “nulls” (pressing A and D only registers one of the key) are allowed. The debate has no real solution because some have it in hardware even though it has a tangible advantage…

[@MansMan42069]

I feel like the biggest difference between leverless and levered controllers is that levered controllers have a mechanical lock on SOCD. On levered controllers, it is physically impossible to input SOCD because the lever simply cannot input opposite directions at once. Barring having literally two movement levers (on default pads), levered controllers do not require a SOCD scrubber. The fact that leverless controllers require SOCD scrubbers at the software level is what makes it exploitable. Specifically the SOCD = neutral coding. Even on pad, the game gives priority two one direction (usually up and towards the opponent) so the neutral exploit doesn't exist. The only way to really make it fair is if the leverless controller introduces a mechanical lock on buttons i.e. pressing left physically prevents you from pressing right etc.

[@ZenithPotentia]

The thing is, Daigo was banned for using a Gafro box that utilized SF5’s in game SOCD cleaning. So even if the hitbox used the softwares SOCD people would still be complaining.

[@MansMan42069]

@@ZenithPotentia That still leaves the mechanical lock on SOCD as a solution to appease everyone. Make it physically impossible to input SOCD.

[@xeno5384]

@@MansMan42069 Pad can do SOCD inputs using dpad and left stick at the same time. Stick is the only controller that cant do it. I don't see the point in forcing everyone to use a worse controller just because some people on stick dont want to move on/ Get used to using their own device to it's fullest if they are more comfortable on it.

[@MansMan42069]

@@xeno5384 I am fully aware, which is why I specified that default pads are just arcade sticks with 2 levers. Also SOCD cleaning is coded in most modern games because of this. It's not the gamepad doing the SOCD cleaning, which is the real issue with leverless.

[@El-Burrito]

So ban pad

[@saaah707]

The fgc already agreed turbo buttons and multiple buttons bound to one input are both illegal. Socd exploits might not officially be in the same boat right now, but if we're being consistent, they should be.

[@user-un-known]

Yeah, get rid of socd. Get rid of anything the lever can't do. And become a niche lame genre which forces people to buy arcade sticks in this age when arcades are going extinct. That's my hot take. What about people coming in to the genre? 12 year olds, for example. Who never been to arcade with fighting games, but play SF on ps4/5 pad online? Gonna force them to buy a specialized equipment just to enter "local" online tournament cuz socd is possible on pad unlike lever, and that's "cheating/against the rules"? If the answer is yes... I pity you.

[@saaah707]

@@user-un-known considering how stunningly you missed the point, maybe you should save your pity for yourself.

[@user-un-known]

@@saaah707 Oops, my bad. Seems I overestimated your reading ability. Have a fine day.

[@ThineAlphaRooster]

the reason the rules are written so weird for socd is because PAD IGNORES THEM. Pad can do B+F=F. Pad can do D+U=U. You can go to accessibility settings and change the right stick to work like the left and do EVERY socd trick. Capcom does not want to ban pad, so they have to be weird and vague about their rulings.

[@saaah707]

​@@user-un-known what you overestimated was my willingness to engage with bad-faith arguments. No one said anything about "getting rid of socd."

[@Onnisaurus]

It's dumb that people call it cheating when it's really a fancy keyboard. Are they gonna try and ban keyboards on PC soon?

[@ThatSneakman]

Sounds like it. Really, if they're gonna ban hitbox, then ban keyboard for consistency. If not, then don't bother.

[@1JokeRCSS]

@@ThatSneakman yeah honestly everything but arcade stick should be banned, but obviously thats not a financially viable option for anyone. If you MR's can't understand why having macros and being able to press L+R at the same time are op then youre actually gormless

[@ThatSneakman]

@@1JokeRCSS Even pads? Lmao

[@sceneCatgirl]

First input priority still allows for instant sonic booms and flash kicks, since if you hold back, then hold forward as well, just let go of back and press punch. Granted, letting go of one button and pressing another takes more coordination than just pressing 2 buttons simultaneously, but with a cross-up style controller this is as easy as sliding your finger down.

[@454Casull]

Well, that’s just how you’d do them on a hit box-style stick anyway, regardless of “instant” whatever

[@harryvpn1462]

You cant do instant sonic booms in hitbox controllers, for some reason in every fg you cant do [2] > [2]+[6]P > [2] like you can with flashkick

[@AirIUnderwater]

Growing up super poor. I could only play fighting games as emulation on a computer. I grew up playing on keyboard and when I finally made my way in life to the point where I could go to the arcades on a regular schedule and buy a fight stick I was super frustrated because I figured they were inferior controls to a keyboard. I remember asking in some FGC forums for ways to use a keyboard format for fighting games. I remember back in 2008 or so someone gave me a schematic for how to build a hitbox. And I remember when someone first told me about the Hitbox itself and I've been a fan ever since. I still have my original Hitbox and I plan on buying a Snackbox and Mpress when I have some more time to play fighting games. It's simply better than a fight stick. Even if you put limitations on SOCD and hardwire it in it won't matter because being able to be precise in the 8 directions that fighting games use means that a leverless controller will be better. For instance, even if you force it so that down and up means neutral and hardwire it in, it won't matter. On a hitbox, going from down to up for a flashkick will still be faster and more precise than a lever. The truly surprising bit is how it's taking so long for levers to be phased out.

[@xroman_]

I remember some years ago it was popular to believe that playing fighting games on keyboard is impossible and inferior to stick or pad. Maybe some people still think that. Being a keyboard player all my life and now seeing this hitbox drama and rise in popularity just makes be giggle

[@Ming1975]

I still like arcade stick but there are too many factors to perfect the stick. The only crippled thing about using keyboard are the punch & kicks. The hit box is practically keyboard config, i remember playing movement with keyboard and buttons with my arcade stick because my joystick sucks and was faulty. Hahaha!

[@chroma6847]

I used to play King of fighter games on keyboard lol

[@RitchieLinao]

I used both way back 2000. Arcade when looking for a match in a arcade mall. Then use keyboard at home to practice combos. Games I always play before are Samurai Showdown 4, KOF 97-2000, and Street Fighter EX.

[@kashourikatsu2543]

People dont understand that the arcade stick is meant for the ARCADE because it was the only way to play ..a controller is more precise and intuitive

[@aotohime9481]

The devs just need to apply it on a software level. Telling all keyboard, pad, hitbox players that their controller is banned because they are better then arcade stick is the dumbest thing I've heard in the FGC in a few years

[@michaelmcgee8189]

they cant if the hardware's already doing it and the hardware's already doing it and it is not realistic that every guy you can buy a leverless from is going to agree to get rid of hardware side SOCD all at once, coordinated such that it happens the same time that every game's devs can go back and implement an SOCD.

[@genejas]

Why they don't just tone down the input leniency is beyond me. Basically none of the shortcuts work on eg third strike

[@aotohime9481]

@@michaelmcgee8189 The issue started because Capcom decided to ban Gafrobox (Which just uses the in game socd which also applies for pad and Keyboard). No other company else has done it. That means ONLY Capcom cares as off now. And hitbox is the only company that natively designed to do the left right equal neutral socd. Many others have the option to turn it off and on. Sounds like an issue that Capcom started then hitbox spread it farther

[@strangeknight2667]

​@@michaelmcgee8189 Controller firmware can be patched, the current SOCD cleaning standards that are enforced at tournament can be altered - It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but certainly preferable to an outright ban

[@michaelmcgee8189]

@@strangeknight2667 you can characterize it with "wouldn't be easy" if you want but I am definitely right in calling it completely implausible L+r=n u+d=u is here to stay

[@an3582]

Seems to me in some cases a lot of people think they dont want simple inputs in games, like 1 button specials, but they actually really do.

[@smoky-phil7694]

They want them but also don't want other people to have access to them at the same time normally :P

[@purposly]

It's all about gatekeeping by adderall abusers, simple as

[@RPGSulSide]

Something isnt against the rules until they adjust the rules so it reflects what they want the competitive space to be. The same way turbo controller are not allowed for some games or tournaments, rules can be made to prevent Hitbox from being used. I have no horse in this race, i've been out of the FGC for years now but suddenly this pops all over my feed - probably due to my interest in SF6 - but i find it an interesting discussion. Curious to see how this develops. Keep in mind that the same way sports have evolved and modified their rules in the past, the same can be done for fighting game tournaments. Whether it is to the benefit of the community remains to be determined.

[@terrencepotter2320]

so its not cheating, its grimy pay to win?

[@smokingred5813]

I have to correct you on a minor detail. The current CPT rules allow for that instant sonic boom and instant guile CA, you can do it on your keyboard as well as pad. This works because SFVs software SOCD cleaning will do B+F=F and the rules state "When both Right and Left directional keys are input at the same time, a controller must either maintain both of the inputs or abandon both." Very much like your first imput priority SOCD cleaning solution to allow hotboxes while not giving them any shortcuts that are not available to other input devices. Let's see if there will be an adjustment to CPT rules.

[@Dont_Trip_Gibbs]

The flashkick thing, is because of the game engine, if u were to go to pad and press down on dapd and up on the stick it inputs jump(up).

[@therealnmg]

This, some people are just salty.

[@BridgetGX]

There's a reason why left and right cancel each other in certain fighting games. It doesn't in the Kakutou Tsukuru (2D Fighter Maker) engine, so you can simultaneously press left and right on your keyboard and it will move you forward while automatically blocking any oncoming strike or projectile that doesn't hit low.

[@paulghignon4092]

It's not hard to implement either, it was just short shortsightedness from the devs, they never expected people to use stuff like this. It's just changing how the inputs read and would literally require a change of two lines of code, by simply adding an if statement in the code, then just patch the game. Hell if they gave me access to the source code I could do it myself in 20 minutes.

[@semantik95]

I agree with most of what you said, but to capcom's credit, instantly recharging a sonic boom is not the same as instantly recharging a flash kick. The recovery of flash kick and every other move with that input type is so great, that it is both easy for anyone on any device to do another one as soon as you recover AND it is almost never good strategy to do so anyway. The capcom's ruling was definitely reactionary given the timing but it's not as arbitrary as it seems.

[@MistaOppritunity]

I believe the point of what he was saying is that different shortcuts that the hitbox afford you shouldn't be judgement calls. It should be, "do we want the shortcuts in or out?" Because there are so many potential shortcuts you could find in the game with a hitbox that if you tried to be nuanced with it, the rules would constantly be changing.

[@semantik95]

@@MistaOppritunity You can't have a judgment call of whether to allow for SOCD rules or not. You literally have to. If you allow devices like keyboard, hitboxes, and pads in your tournaments, then you literally have to make a judgment call on how SOCD should be handled because those devices are physically capable of triggering SOCD. The only question is what should those rules be, which is unavoidably a judgment call, and that's okay. Nephew proposes "last input priority" instead of neutral which I agree with. There are tons of other judgment calls that we don't have a problem with so long as they are codified and universally applied rules (how many rounds, how pauses should be handled, coaching, etc.)

[@MistaOppritunity]

@@semantik95 that's what I just said. I said you can't make a judgement call on each particular way an SOCD can impact a game. Obviously SOCD needs to be addressed, I didnt mean we can't decide as a whole.

[@semantik95]

@@MistaOppritunity Yea ok. I agree. I think my comment still stands cuz he makes a point of mentioning how deciding left/right vs. up/down rules differently is arbitrary and its clearly not.

[@mapukid]

Hitbox is a expensive keyboard

[@S3ndMast3r]

totally agree. First Input Priority is the way.

[@brocksteele7475]

I feel like people are making a much bigger deal about the SOCD cleaning than they really should be. Like, y'all realize you can just let go of down and press jump in the same frame regardless of SOCD cleaning, right? It doesn't slow down the input speed since releasing with one finger and pressing with another happen simultaneously with independent travel times. Every SOCD trick I've seen doesn't really need it, it just lets you be slightly sloppier about your inputs. The 4-frame super isn't a result of how Hitbox handles SOCD, it's a natural result of being able to use different fingers for each directional button. All-button controllers will always have this advantage over sticks.

[@ijustsawthat]

If the controller gives you an advantage, place them in a separate category. This is like placing a GR.4 vs a GR.3 car, there's a difference in the cars but a good driver can still put competition.

[@Strider1Wilco]

lol no we're already small as it is. Aris take is better. Just allow it cause we can't alienate people already.

[@fabolousjada5070]

@@Strider1Wilco alienate ? A it’s called learn how to play fair

[@RobotMasterSplash]

@@Strider1Wilco It's already alienating people, it's not fun to play against.

[@MrMeh23]

@@fabolousjada5070 if the rules allow it then it is fair

[@chances3163]

@@MrMeh23 sometimes rules need to be changed, fair isn't just defined by rules

[@TheSagitis]

If hit box is not cheating than people need to explain why certain sports equipment has been ban on normal sport

[@Gold_Lightan]

the only reason we're talking about Hitbox now is Kawano winning EVO with a hitbox. Honestly, if Idom won, i don't think we'll be having this discussion. Remember when Nuckledu openly says he is uses the PS pad with dpad and analog for charge (like the hitbox charge), we don't see the japanese complaining when Du won capcom cup. Also James Chen made a very good discussion about the Hitbox on his channel. check it out. He talks about the advantage on joystick over hitbox.

[@mycommentdoesnotmatter1809]

I tested my mech keyboard (basically a hitbox) on Tekken 7. It allowed me to guard low attacks (hold D+B) and spam low parry attempts (D+F) at the same time. I can only imagine what else pro players can do with this.

[@stylesheetra9411]

Keyboard problems are the bad ergo and cluttered design But for everything else is good (try a ewfg with a keyboard) But imo the cons outweight the pros

[@kinabalucat]

That's because keyboard dont have that socd cleaning

[@JoaoCosta-lt1mc]

Tekken has built-in SOCD cleaning. And it's "extra clean": if you press D+B+F you don't even get D, you get neutral. Were you holding D with your middle finger and alternating presses between F and B? If you do that, you're bound to accidentally hit D+B+F, get neutral as a result, and eat a low.

[@FGirao]

Man I can spam low parry from crouchblock on pad too lmao

[@JoaoCosta-lt1mc]

@@FGirao Yeah, but when you keep switching between DB and DF on the d-pad, you will still be holding just D for some frames, which won't block anything (will duck highs, though). OP is insinuating that he can go directly from DB to DF to DB again on keyboard, without going through D or neutral, which is not the case at all. Unless he is a machine.

[@Giraffinator]

I think it was ol' Brian_Fortnite who made a good argument for just letting games take care of the cleaning. Just have the controller send whatever inputs and let the game take care of the rest.

[@yupjuliansje]

It's on us to push games to their limit, it's on the developers to decide whether to stop us or not.

[@noBody-ue6cs]

Yep, just like creating a terrible meta in a card game, everyone will have to buy a hit box.

[@free_manipur_from_india]

The thing is, stuff like this will end up killing Street Fighters, when other fighting game like League come out with 1 button super, people that don't want to buy Hitbox would just switch to league.

[@CrysisFear]

Deem such a stupid statement. There is a reason cheat software exists to combat "push games to their limit"

[@smokingred5813]

Developers as well as tournament organizers. Some things happen outside of the game and there is nothing the devs can do about that.

[@harryvpn1462]

@@free_manipur_from_india i doubt thatll be a problem at all

[@byrondadon2123]

I didn’t know there was a big outburst about Hitboxes. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Great video!

[@MrTheil]

It’s just traditionalists getting pissed off

[@hunter4229]

I like the 1st press priority suggestion. I feel like this is how it "should" work instead of having different functions when pressing directional buttons at the same time.

[@darthnazgul]

I don't have a fightstick, but because of my disability, I would opt to go for a Hitbox as it just seems more comfortable to use. I can barely do quarter circle inputs anyway.

[@Miriam_J_]

I think it's great that tech like this helps disabled people play games they otherwise wouldn't have been able to enjoy. It's sad when perfectly abled body people use tech like this just to cheat in games. It makes communities against the idea all together, accidentally hitting accessibility possibilities in the process.

[@fgfhjfhjfbhfghf5771]

@@Miriam_J_ you do realise that calling the hitbox cheating in ANY circumstance does more harm to disabled players then any able body person using it

[@dogoku]

People made fun of me for using a keyboard when playing street fighter, but I argued that I have better control with a keyboard and they didn't believe me. Now people are crying because using a keyboard is "cheap"...

[@GomerJ]

Huh. I found this very interesting cause I guess I just always assumed hitbox worked with what you call the first input priority and that you still had to release prior inputs to get your presses, and the advantage was mostly faster input speed. I didn’t know about the shortcuts, so yeah first input seems like the logical step to me, it makes all controllers function similarly enough while still keeping hitbox usable, which would still come with the advantage of consistent inputs.

[@schmity007]

You wouldn't be able to hit diagonals in that case

[@Lilly-qt4yy]

I'm pretty sure that is standard in the smash brothers scene already

[@Younghoon15]

Hitboxes have its advantages, but the fundamental issue is the SOCD. If hitbox is banned, then pad controllers also have to be banned since you can press opposite. Fighting games are being developed with the pad controller in mind first, not arcade sticks. Controllers are a tool and will change and get better over time. The SOCD rules should be the thing in question, which can be fixed by devs and controller firmware.

[@alexprach]

Controller pads have a rocker to stop you pressing both (up+down/left+right), unless you modify the dpad yourself though ... Game developers didn't have to worry about this in the past since it was impossible to do with a brand new arcade or pad controller. Ideally in any new game, developers have to take this into account, probably they will have to purposely slow down moves to how quick you can do it with a controller or arcade stick, but this'll make the game feel less responsive for people who use hit boxes though or the priority buttons mentioned in the video. The question is if there was a controller connected to your finger nerves, is that unfair, since your nerves can be buttons. In theory its the same difference as going from arcade stick to hitbox.

[@alexprach]

@@bradejensen I was saying the developers didn't design it so you could hit both keys as they were probably testing with arcade sticks or unmodified joypads, but not keyboards. So I also consider it cheating, but for future fighters there is a way to stop this from happening by using priority button directions and also minimum time for the move to execute would make these interfaces as slow as each other.

[@Aznbomb3r]

To clear some confusion, I don't think Capcom didn't think clearly. They just couldn't ban down-up option because that's how the game naturally works. If you're a keyboard player, you would know that the game naturally cancels down with up meaning you can hold down and tap up at the same time to flash kick, it is naturally built into the game. So they can't ban something that their game naturally has.

[@zaygr]

Time to ban keyboards /s

[@hagoryopi2101]

I'm glad hitboxes exist, actually. Playing on a PS3 controller, I could never get consistent motion inputs, and I didn't want to drop the money for a fight stick. Then I heard about these new controversial controllers, saw a picture, and realized they're just keyboards with extra steps. Now I get to use the keyboard I already have, and I can move past the fundamentals to learning the more fun parts of fighting games! I hope these things don't get banned. Maybe I'm just not at the level where this sort of thing matters for me, or maybe I just don't understand what legacy players are going through, but it seems completely arbitrary to me. People should get to use the equipment they're comfortable with.

[@GottiPlays]

these guys can do stuff not even a pad can, go watch ATP video on it..it's just cheating this video does not explain the issue at all, it's not that it's faster, it's that you can imput L + R at the same time, you cant do that on a pad, neither on a stick

[@techmark3665]

@@GottiPlays you can on pad using the dpad and left analogue stick

[@RobotMasterSplash]

@@techmark3665 Literally nobody does so that doesn't matter.

[@IronKnee963]

People been using Hitboxes for a very long time, it's not new. lol

[@IronKnee963]

@@RobotMasterSplash People like smug have been doing it.

[@60fpspeasant84]

1. i think Capcom accepted "Up + Down = Up" is because that is the same as SFV's in-game "Up + Down" SOCD. Why didn't they do it for "L + R"? Because the game SOCD prioritize "Forward" input, and since the controller can't determine "Forward", "L + R = none or both" is a good choice. 2. For the 1st/last input priority, what happened when "L + R" or "U + D" are inputted simultaneously where the controller doesn't know which is the first or last input? Edit: 2a. Regardless of which input the controller chose, it will create 2 outcome for the player. 1. They didn't simultaneously input 2. They did. 2 Different outcomes. And nobody in FGC want inconsistency.

[@luckyumbasa417]

It doesnt matter what happens if you press both directions simultaneously with First Input. If you do a entire motion in sub 1 frame you messed it up no matter which SOCD you use. Whichever finger you lift first will trigger the other direction, so its not like hitting both locks u out either.

[@MilkyCao]

worth mentioning. the built in socd cleaning the game has is fowrard prioritization, in practice it is last input if last input is towards opponent, thus basically having a slightly better version of guile's banned gafrobox. and yet by their rules you need to use left+right = neutral OR disable your socd cleaning (which results in effectively last input socd which IS banned) but not only is there no way to easily disable the socd cleaning, playing in tournaments without socd cleaning tends to be banned. due to older games allowed left + right = blocking Left + right at the same time.

[@kaienziukyo2652]

Well, when blurring the line between semantics and "spirit" of debate, you often debate things that are not at issue. Advantage / exploit is commonly associated with "cheating". In total context, the "spirit" / "idea" of the issue is very easy to understand. If a tool is superior to another tool, then it SHOULD be the default tool. In the way that generally speaking most engines in race cars follow certain standards, or bats in base ball, etc etc. It is incorrect to identify the semantic aspect of the argument to deflate an entire point. Almost like saying if a human lacks all his/ her fingers on their left hand (or has an extra), then technically are they actually human? We'd probably NOT debate that. That is an extreme example to illustrate something very simple : A tool is being used to exploit the game - THIS - is the issue, the debate of if you call it "cheating" should be reserved for it's own lane. Cheating or NOT doesn't at all change the fact that 1. you are at an advantage if you use it. 2. it exploits game inputs. 3. Games (fighting) are not made with this in mind. Whether it's cheating or not (if people would wish to use that shorthand to describe it) is irrelevant.

[@majorlazor5058]

I agree with your post. People are going call it cheating because they rather use another method they are more familiar with.

[@padq1183]

@@majorlazor5058 i dissagre respectfully fithing games have alwayd been about skill and im not very good at them because im not very speedy but with the "BOX" im able to consistently do combos . I think this is wrong, players should not train for a lifetime just for a decent player to be able to match up to them (not necesairly win) simply by having the box i believe its not fair. And yes the best should be the standard but in this case best means leaving behind the core essentials of competitieve FGC. Side note imagine a mid player being able to do a combo like daigos evil ryu combo against momochi simply by having the HBOX

[@rymat]

​@@padq1183 The thing is a 'mid player' would rarely find themselves in that situation since combos aren't the only thing to learn when it comes to fighters. Combos are only one part of the whole game. While hitbox/stickless will assist in your execution it's not going to carry you against someone that knows the game inside and out.

[@padq1183]

@@rymat Yes i do agree spacing and shiz is also important ( i commentate just trying to clarify its not that i dont know) but combos are such an integral part of the game and if you have to be scared of getting caught by one straight hit into full combos makes it mental presure along with the fact that some techs that make neutral so much ez er can be done in the box esier than on stick so i honestly think its simply against the so called spirit of FGC.

[@The_Gamers_Gamer]

Very well put.

[@InternetTAB]

can you hit up/down or left/right at the same time? then yeah, obviously it's not how the games are meant to play

[@nottyseel949]

I don't play competitively any more, but I'm wondering if the different ruling on booms versus flash kicks would be related to the risk reward and reaction. There's very little risk in throwing booms or any horizontal charge move and there's very little risk involved in moving forward and backwards. Ducking, standing, jumping, and anti-air all need to be done often on reaction and lead to huge punishes when too slow or the wrong guess. Flash kicks in general are reactions or anticipation so I could see it having a different standard. I could easily see faster execution from blocking low to jumping making command throws less cheap for example. But that's from the outside, does that make sense as a player?

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

In your example the logic would dictate that they need to ban the insta flashkicks and not the booms, precicesly because of the reaction, the point of dragon punches having a complicated imputs is to make it riskier by making the player buffer the imput or just commiting to it anticipating a jump, instead, with an instant flash kick or dragon punch, you are rewarded by having a slow reaction time, because now you will have all the time of the world to execute the anti air move instantly, so you will never have to guess or read the oponent, this is contrary to the philosofy behind the dragon punch imputs and charge imputs. If you support leaverless controls, you should also support button guards like in Mortal Kombat and you should also support imputless controls for fighting games. If you want fighting games to preserve their imputs in command attacks, you should never support leaverless controlers, and just to be clear, a pad is not the same as a keyboard, because it is specifically designed to prevent players from being able to imput 2 directions at the same time, and a pad still has a travel time, it just has a better neutral than a stick.

[@nottyseel949]

@@samirgomeznovelo746 That makes sense, but it sounds like you don't support instant inputs vertically or horizontally. I'm not saying either are good or bad (not really my place as I don't play), I was just comparing the two considering the question of why someone would ban one direction but not the other.

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

@@nottyseel949 In reality they should ban both, I am not against 1 button special attacks, but I am against controllers that remove the execution and time constrains of complex imputs of special moves in fighting games that took them into consideration on the game balance, because now players with leaverless controls can just overpass the travel time that was intentionally being taken into account on the game design. There are games like Mortal Kombat that have very simplified imputs that are more or less just there to extend the move set of the characters rather than to add strategic desition making, thats why MK has a dedicated block button, to allow players to block while moving forward, they intentionally eliminated imput execution and designed the game around the frame data of each move instead.

[@nottyseel949]

@@samirgomeznovelo746 That makes a lot of sense. I wonder how devs will adjust.

[@iota-09]

@@samirgomeznovelo746 how is motion inputs a matter of strategy? They are only a theoretical limit after all aside from extreme amount of inputs moves(so you'd need at least one frame per input) Like sure you're gonna be slower by making a complex input, but if you go fast enough... I mean, more than strategy, to me it sounds like a physical requirement, can't play comp if you don't have fast fingers, which sounds kinda ridiculous when different input combinations could allow(in terms of both "how to activate a move" as well as setting up buttons for a controller using for example the input setting function in a ps4) To my knowledge, no other competitive game scene in the industry has this kind of balancing in their games that can be broken through with sheer physical speed... It just sounds like a bad idea, as proven by the fact that individual input controllers(probably even a joy-con, but I've not tried that) can somewhat easily circumvent that. Honestly i'm all for making fgs more about learning tye game than about learning the motion inputs, if supporting stickless means not supporting motion inputs and all that jazz, then i'm alll for it. They might be called e-sports, but the sport refers to it eing a competition, not a physical activity, focus should be put on knowledge, precision and quick decision making, not on physical speed.(muscle memory is a bit of an odd thing to mention though as it kinda oversteps physical performance and is related more to raw experience)

[@sadomoreno5829]

If turbo is banned then so should this.

[@brendanmccombs792]

Before I started playing on pc as my main source of playing games, I used to play a ton of fighters on the PS2, GGXX and MK Deadly Alliance come to mind, but after nearly 15 or so years of not playing on gamepad when I finally decided to pick up fighters again this time on pc and really getting into them again when I picked up my controller to play Umvc3 it felt weird the muscle memory of my youth was not there, and going to keyboard messing around with bindings until I found something similar of that of the hit box it felt way more natural. I can see that there are some clear advantages and that annoys people, but it if it wasn't for how great leverless controls felt, I don't think I would've gotten back into fighters and refind my love of them. The hitbox should stay because it would just kill it for people in similar shoes as me, where a keyboard feels more natural than a stick or pad.

[@strangeknight2667]

First time I have heard someone suggest first input priority and it seems like the best possible option. Ideally there should be a single standard that can be applied to all devices decided by the game developers and applied by the game. Using first input priority as the standard has the extra benefit of making arcade sticks, pads, keyboard + mouse, hitbox all handle directional inputs in a much more similar way. The fact that a default ps4 pad (probably the most common input device used for these games) needs to have an exception carved out in the rules so that it isn't incidentally banned feels like a huge oversight. But what is the most likely outcome here? In the very possible event that Capcom (or any other fighting game developer) doesn't implement this, how should this be handled? For me it seems absurd to ban any device which can't do anything that isn't possible on a normal pad. It is as absurd as the idea that we would ban pad.

[@60fpspeasant84]

Regarding 1st input priority, on the of chance that L and R are inputted simultaneously, what should the controller choose then?

[@NephewDork]

i think you can make them cancel out if pressed on the same frame, then you’re not getting a different input than you had right before that so doesn’t seem like there can be an issue

[@60fpspeasant84]

@@NephewDork That might create a hard situation for the player tho. Like, i can't know if i had pressed simultaneously, and so all of a sudden, my input stop, or they choose both (which prioritize forward in SFV), both of which aren't my intended outcome.

[@me-xm2vu]

@Nephew I comment with lengthy respond but youtube filter me out as spam maybe because of the arrow emoji could you please read it

[@Azura2910arpg]

@@60fpspeasant84 brian_f explained priority in his video. In short: the game treats hitbox the same way how you use dpad on a ps4 gamepad. The only different here is hitbox is designed for easier combo execution due to button location. You can do the same with pad I believe. He also shows that there are combos much harder to execute with hitbox. Imo, if they ban hitbox then you gotta ban pad too.

[@king_ltc_]

They are an unfair advantage in a sense. There are things you can do an Hitbox that you can’t do on a stick. There will be situations where those precise movements will just always beat the stick’s inconsistencies. This only effects the very top of players in my opinion, and most are at least attempting to switch if not switch already. At the end of the day, this has been in games for years as game developers know that a majority of the playerbase on Steam usually play on keyboard. Requiring them to strictly do the downforward motion for a Hadoken will be a disadvantage instead of down and forward motion. Idk.

[@HarmonicResonanceScale]

it's simply a legacy controller vs a new controller style. If a player can execute commands more effectively with a hitbox, what argument do people have other than being salty bitches?

[@Tletna]

My SFV copy is on Steam, I don't use keyboard nor have I ever met anyone else who plays on keyboard. I use pad (and no, I don't use analog and d-pad at same time like some morons are saying people can do, it isn't practical). I would prefer to use stick but good sticks are spendy.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

Pad also has advantages over an arcade stick and it can do most of what a Hitbox is allowed to do because of its directional buttons and the lever stick. I think this community needs to grow up and accept the fact that arcade sticks are a really inefficient controller for fighting games. I'm pretty sure every other controller in existence is better, except for a steering wheel: I'd take a guitar controller any day over an arcade stick. That said, devs should just stop designing moves that are mechanically hard to perform and just stick to quarter circles at most. At that point, the differences among controllers won't be a big deal anymore. "But what about flash kicks? You cannot give that move easy inputs" Well, devs should also design each move with actual risk/reward. A move providing godlike properties and frame data just because it's mechanically hard to perform is bad design. This comes from a Hitbox player's perspective

[@HarmonicResonanceScale]

@@florinalinmarginean1135 so the answer to easier inputs using a hitbox is... easier inputs in games? Hard combos and special input execution is what makes stuff like EWGF and Raging Demon so satifying to do. You have to work for that muscle memory. A character like Goldlewis couldn't exist in a world of pure command normals and shoto specials. Evil Mist? Niche move used mostly by high level Nina players to punish fuzzy blocking or hit confirm into an ambiguous launcher. If anything, execution needs to be harder in the age of hitboxes. Gimme more just frame stuff. Gimme faster input windows. Gimme input buffered rekkas that can be ss cancelled.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

@@HarmonicResonanceScale I just think that hard execution shouldn't come from churning butter on your stick or something like that. If you want to keep it, just frames, manual timing and high apm are definitely a way to have high execution requirements. Or devs could try and account for controllers and Hitboxes, but let's be real. Whatever weird input they might come up with, it will always be more efficient on Hitbox than on arcade stick

[@DuoMaxwellDS]

This is why I stopped bothering with competitive side of FG, because even til now they don't have a standard for such things. It's hard to enjoy the match when after a lost, you started to feel like your opponent having advantage over you due to his tool, not his skill, and no matter how hard I try I can't getting such thought out of my head, the toxic thought about the winner keep appearing. I decided to just stop playing it competitively and take the back seat to not become hateful toward the genre I've been following for more than 20 years.

[@grayterminal232]

Man i had a hard time using lever controllers, but i tried a hit box and it was great. I genuinly think its the evolution of controllers.

[@yooki8826]

Same, my inputs became consistent so much quicker and it’s more comfortable

[@DueM]

meh, hitboxes don't belong in top level esports. they're just like modded controllers with rapid fire where it's not intended or using mouse and kb against controller players in fps games, unfair advantage is a thing and a level playing field is what sports of any kind are based around.

[@Ekim2F94]

I've been playing fighting games my whole life pad. Only more recently I had tried actual stick because I always admired stick because it is the symbol of retro fighting games. However, it was so clunky and hard to understand for me. I later heard about hitbox controllers went down the rabbit whole and now found that there are "mixbox" essentially keyboards without all the extra keys. I bought one and it instantly increased my understanding of hard concepts like KBD and giant swing with Armor King. There's no denying it is insanely effective at what it does but at the end of the day it feels more like optimization and also helping understanding of concepts better to me. I feel like anyone upset about it needs to just get with the times it feels like natural evolution it's the current optimized tool. All technology's purpose is to make our lives easier. Being mad at hitbox or mixbox is like being mad people drive cars instead of riding horses. Sure you can keep riding horse but don't be mad if I win the race cause I chose car...

[@mathieutaillefer8418]

Hmmm no... i'd compare it more to.. lets say.. we are both racing, except your car is faster. and has an automatic transmission and mines manual.

[@Ekim2F94]

@@mathieutaillefer8418 good analogy, well said. Iwas writing from a place of frustration what isaid was the best I could think of at the time lmao. Regardless, this rhetoric is like subtle Jahns to me.

[@quint2568]

@@mathieutaillefer8418 lol manual just means you have more control. That's why I kept my 240sx and it's one of the best drift cars

[@iota-09]

@@mathieutaillefer8418 i actually wonder: what do you think about joycons? I actually wanted a switch just because that allows for more precise and instant input compared to a ds4 d-pad, and i don't even play fighting games regularly, actually, what does the fgc think about keyboards? This debate feels like the fgc lives in a world where the fps community stuck to using controller instead of K&M because cod, goldeneye, halo and so on were played on controller.

[@schuka5]

Banning Hitbox from competitive is stupid. It'd be like the FPS / TPS community on consoles wanting to ban gyroscopic controls because it adds significant more precision on aim. I may be biased since I primarily played fighters on emulation and PC, but the arguments against it just feels like... Coping. What happens when hitboxes are banned, are they going to ban keyboards with custom layouts next? It's fundamentally the same thing, just more buttons.

[@danowarkills4093]

Hey, question. Is it legal to use a controller that has both a stick and a hitbox layout (using the same direction canceling)? I made one, and it's great for games that involve full circle inputs.

[@bokc_nonpopularsalt1011]

Games need to just start making commands simple if they are going to allow boxes like this.

[@FenixPajarito]

Why they let Daigo use a Hitbox in tournaments of Street Fighter? It's clearly that the hitbox is faster and in fighting games every millisecond is vital to win a battle. So I think all players using a lever would be fair.

[@azechase6597]

I think that the walking forward sonic boom is different from the instant flash kick bc charge characters were not designed with the intention of being able to walk forward while charging these moves. I think that it does break the design of the game but for flash kick, you still have to hold down back the whole time, the only difference is that you're faster. The instant flash kick does not actually contradict any design of the game bc of this whole the walking forward while charging back does.

[@Flokker]

For me, as a general non argument. It's about some self made-up sense of justice. Like, the games were designed to be played this way, with this joystick in mind. Min-maxing everything may be the way pros go about things, but it feels sad when some part of an original identity like a controller is replaced just to get X (sometimes massive) percentages of accuracy over the controls. If the FGC was like a huge thing you'd almost wish it would go the route of bodybuilding, where it's untested (use whatever shit you want to enhance yourself) and the "tested" environments where you stick to the rules of using what nature gave you. But hey, I suck ass at fighting games so it doesn't make a lick of difference. I just don't want to see the original joystick go away.

[@TrypticOwen]

Require the controller to send both SOCD signals and patch the game to ignore the second SOCD input such that one direction needs to be released for the other to be registered.

[@epicpumpkin8876]

then theyd have to address contorllers and pads as well.

[@TrypticOwen]

@@epicpumpkin8876 good. SOCD clearing is the pad effectively enabling unintended shortcuts, IMO.

[@epicpumpkin8876]

@@TrypticOwen I'm aware. But they'd have to address both. They can't really ban a hit box without banning pad.

[@TrypticOwen]

@@epicpumpkin8876 ah, yes - I'd misread your original comment. I don't think controllers are as ergonomic a way to implement SOCD but I still think they should send all the inputs without any clearing implemented in hardware and allow the game to decide what to do with them.

[@GawainSSB]

First input priority is such an obvious solution that it makes it pretty clear that hitbox's intention is to maximize exploits. They'll only change if a big company like Capcom makes them, which seems weird because it doesn't seem like it should be up to Capcom to police fighting game controllers.

[@The_Gamers_Gamer]

According to this video, if it walks, quacks and acts like a duck, it's still not a duck if Capcom says it isn't. Pretty laughable take.

[@quint2568]

It's a huge failure on the game developers part. Should be coded into the game itself

[@numa2k147]

Let's take the winners of the last Capcom events and see how many were using leverless controls. Let's take the last 60 events online and offline. I don't think there's that many. Also your solutions are very good but I don't think we need to change the rules tho

[@exiaR2x78]

Completely agree with you on what SOCD should be, maybe they can implement that in SF6

[@SammySam7x]

I agree that they are exploits but remember that abusing exploits shouldn't be allowed. It's legal cheating.

[@salt7582]

Tell your politicians that if you care so much Legal and fair Crying

[@LordMoldyButt18]

@@salt7582 such a stupid point. Because X does it and we all know they're not supposed to it's okay for me to do Y

[@SonicMegaKing]

No, it's either legal, or it's cheating. If there's no rule against it, it's fair to do.

[@cloud8521]

​@@SonicMegaKing Just because a loophole exists, does not mean it is inherently fair.

[@SonicMegaKing]

@@cloud8521 What we think is "inherently fair" or not doesn't matter, the rules do. In competition, you're allowed to do anything that doesn't violate the rules to succeed, and you should. If it's so bad, there'll be an official call made about about it and the rules will adjust. Until then, it's fair game.

[@MazMedias]

Hot take: this is on the devs, not Hitbox or the players. If they choose to ban the equipment that's okay, but finding novel ways that stuff interacts with other stuff is at worst 'kinda sketchy,' not cheating.

[@ymb9shinzou743]

We can only hope that moving forward every fighting game developer makes it so inputs on a hitbox behave exactly the same as a lever. Removing all these shortcuts that the hitbox allows should be the goal and then we'll see who uses one out of preference.

[@thesacredbeast2000]

i don't care how people input motions as long as it isn't an external macro, like if you still have to practice a motion its still fair enough

[@hottoast16]

Ban arcade sticks so all the boomers have to learn pad, hitbox, keyboard. Once they adjust they will realize that they have been holding themselves back and they will start talking about how amazing new controllers are. Completely fair. I am definitely not biased because I use these controllers.

[@DrewSkyz]

It’s strange though if everybody could do it and it’s so quick and easy. Then why doesn’t everyone use it . BECAUSE IT IS NOT!!!. It hurts my hand like hell using hitbox and for the life of me it’s taking me forever to get the moves clean. Truth is it depends on your character and a lot, I mean a lot of practice to train your mind from stick. Good video though.

[@joeking6762]

🍻

[@AirventOS]

Everyone is different, and if depends on what you grew up with. For me, levers is the least comfortable thing I could use for anything, and pads are too small and slippery for my big thumbs. Hitbox & kb are the only options for me if I want to have a good time.

[@Ming1975]

I play all but not good with any but the stick is just more pleasurable to me.

[@terence7009]

I have never been able to get the hang of a fightstick even when I was a kid, and I play lots of games on a keyboard anyway, so at least trying out a hitbox and seeing if I get the hang of it will always be more alluring to me than yet another accidental jump forward on a joystick. if that's cheating, well, I guess I'm not good enough to ever go to a tournament anyway so it doesn't matter.

[@Ziyoblader]

Wait if you're on a keyboard you could always just get a Cherry MX red switches which are essentially the same thing as a hitbox for my understanding heck you can even get a fight stick with keyboard keys instead of buttons

[@willwatkins5940]

Funny how big this is now considering how much the MK9 community said it was an issue with people utilizing it with Kabal and Mileena exploits

[@freshporkbun]

nothing will replace the satisfaction i get from playing on stick. More power to leverless players though, i respect learning a completely new input method so when your combos drop you feel worse about it

[@KendrysDraws]

it's not cheating but the question is should it be allowed? I mean if enough people see it as unfair/ broken then it should be looked at. If it gives you a clear advantage, most people don't have it and you have to pay extra to get it then it seem a bit unfair. That being said, this mainly affects the top level players IMO (it's not going to make a big difference if you're beginner or intermediate level)

[@rob_i208]

"If it gives you a clear advantage, most people don't have it and you have to pay extra to get it then it seem a bit unfair." So arcade sticks should be banned then?

[@alexandersze49]

My thought process is as follow regarding hitbox Daigo uses hitbox on guile and still doesn’t always gets first place So fighting game needs more than just perfect input to win Hitbox only makes the game easier but I won’t say it’s cheating. If you don’t like it, then just adapt Remember when Nissan Skyline was too good because it was the lightest chassis and was crushing races? Yeah they banned it instead of adapting it, doesn’t sound really fair is it?

[@Miguel_Molina]

how is that a good thought process. If we took away his hitbox and give him a joystick. There is very good possibility TODAY he wouldn't perform as good as he would if he used a joystick.

[@nickpapageorgio8529]

He doesn’t always get first but hitbox won evo

[@paulcox2447]

We've been getting rid instead of adopting it in sport competitions all the time. There's limits to how good are bats and shoes are allowed to be in baseball and running for example. They definitely put a limit to what kind of gear you're allowed to use in certain sports.. this isn't new. I don't even see why it's that much of a gray area the controller literally takes away from the intended gameplay mechanics of the game.

[@The_Gamers_Gamer]

@@paulcox2447 Remember when Tom Brady got suspended for deflating his balls? People couldn't understand that it was a rule for a reason. He gained an unfair competitive advantage from his equipment. The balls were easier to spin and hold on to meaning less fumbles and more completions. This was rightfully called cheating and leverless controllers are no different.

[@damibaut3577]

Your solution on cleaning inputs is just perfect, they should do that

[@tbc1880]

I'd just wish it was left up to the games. We are in the modern era let the games clean themselves and if they won't the community could make software to do it themselves. Main reason being how the game may want to clean can differ from the controllers which would result in breaking of game balance.

[@NessOnett8]

I'm seeing a lot of misinformation on this issue. Evo(whose rules most things follow), explicitly allowed the Gafro-box this year(As well as any other controlled using Last-input priority). It was banned in 2019, but that was AGES ago and things have progressed past that. CPT hasn't updated its rules since its the end of the game's life and SFV is expected to be retired, but word is they will allowed Last-input priority going forward into SF6. Which makes sense, since it doesn't really offer any real advantage. Keep in mind that if you hold down back, and then start holding forward, it actually takes the same amount of time to let go of a button than to press a button(and you need to let go of down anyways), so you could actually get the boom out just as fast with first-input priority. The point being, no matter what system for cleaning you do, there's always going to be "exploits." But there's also always going to be tradeoffs. Doing a lot of things are way harder(/slower) on hitbox. And the same is true for each cleaning method. They all offer niche advantages and disadvantages. But at the end of the day, there's no logic behind banning any specific one or making any the standard. Other than some arbitrary "feeling." And that's WHY the Evo rules got written the way they did. Because when they sat down and tried to put the issue in concrete terms, they couldn't.

[@soggytoast111]

First of all, Evo is Evo, their rules don't necessarily represent this game. The CPT rules really take precedence. I mean it was only a few years ago that Evo was being run by a literal child molester, who used to bribe children with chicken fingers and arcade tokens to take their pants off. What they say should not be taken for granted. Also your statement about how "last input wins" is the same thing as L + R = N is objectively false. Hold one button down and press the other. Now try lifting your finger up to press the other. Which one is slower? There is obviously a huge advantage to not having to lift your finger up.

[@sable8716]

A big part of this is also with the FGC's massive pushback against e-sports and developer run leagues. The FGC had their chance to have a regulatory board on issues like these but just refused because they wanted to keep this "grassroots" feeling in the scene. Now you have these issues where tournaments have different rule sets and everyone just points at other people when ruling disputes come up because there's no reason to settle or meet halfway and just continue to fracture the scene.

[@ticksmilk]

I used to hold my 360 controller like a keyboard when I played SF4; coming from a pc background. I had access to both jumps at all times when I played charge characters. So, who's fault it is for the inputs being too lenient?

[@Gigawood]

Really interesting to hear that FGC pro tours are adapting their rules to this equipment. Wow.

[@kinglear6150]

I'll explain it with apples and oranges: it may be legal, but that doesn't mean is legitimate. It is "cheating" because these games were NOT designed with this inputs in mind. If Street Fighter 6 is designed to be played with and balanced around hitboxes, THEN it's not cheating.

[@iceee420]

I guess it comes down to if players are operating their equipment, so things like travel time matter, or if they are playing pianos, just making decisions. Both are impressive at the top levels

[@iota-09]

Honestly i always thought of e-sports to be closer to the second than the first, and most other e-sports communities seem to reflect this. In terms of competitive games i've always been more into fps than fighting, which is why it boggles my mind how the fgc holds so tightly on the ideas of physical limits and crutches, sticking to the stick(pun not intended) instead of moving to more accurate tools so that you need to be physically fast to get high-level play inputs due to a nostalgia(at least according o nephc's idea about it being tied to how old arcades worked, although I've not seen one in years) with sticks and motion inputs. There seems to definitely be a way stronger emphasis in fighting games than other comp games about physical prowess and and muscle memory than in other communities where the focus is generally more on experience, tactics, precision and only to an extent on myscle memory and physical speed.(doing a fast 180° turn in an fps is definitely way less taxing than inputting a move in as less frames as possible on a stick in terms of physical speed requirements, although the ability to stop on the opponent's head will require a ton of experience and muscle memory still)

[@giantdinoboy8264]

Just give fighting game characters more feint attacks to counter trigger-happy hitbox players.

[@dustinspencer7215]

Yes, these are 'cheatboxes', definitely. What is often left out of these 'arguments' put forward, which they're not, is that the GAME ITSELF isn't designed for these 'hitboxes'. The moves your doing are meant to be completed on a stick, so all the frames and recovery are set to that idea. In fact, the idea of doing a fireball, from going down to forward, is only really applicable to a stick or a pad. There would be no reason to make characters that have those inputs if 'hitboxes' were prevalent. The game would have to be adapted to compensate for these 'hitboxes'. Instead, the game is designed from a stick out and that means you're going to see these videos that show how the inputs can be exploited using buffering that would be impossible on a stick. Instant anything is unfair, and Capcom didn't foresee this. They're going to phase it out now, in Street Fighter 6, because all they have to do is make the inputs more like Tekken and unbufferable. Once that happens, the 'hitboxes' are going to be far too slow to use against a stick. They should have banned it from the start. People are innovative, companies have to adapt, things take time and don't happen over night. Don't worry, Capcom isn't going to let this go for SF 6.

[@iota-09]

Is a keyboard not allowed in fgc events? Genuine question

[@soggytoast111]

Here is my solution: 1) Fix the SOCD rules. You are absolutely correct that U + D should be treated exactly the same as L + R. And to end the debate here, SOCD inputs canceling (L + R = U + D = N) is the most fair way and should be the tournament standard. Basic things like movement, jumping, charge moves require hitbox user to lift a finger up off one button for the other to register, giving them a similar restriction to moving a lever. No more frame perfect charge and release or wobbling around the screen. 2) Fix how the software handles SOCD. Currently SFV treats L + R as forward. This means that the "send both or abandon both" rule is broken because sending both effectively gets around the restriction of L + R = Neutral. Having no SOCD cleaner to send both - which is completely legal - can be an advantage due to Capcom's negligence to patch the game to match the CPT rule. 3) Put a software cap on how quickly buffer special moves or dashes can come out. If you input a dash in three frames, a CA in four frames, they don't start to come out until frame 7/8 to account for throw distance of stick players who physically can't input motions that fast. This would also serve to help nullify the advantage of people playing at home where use of macro scripts is impossible to police (its also incredibly hard to police in IRL events, but we won't go there). Hurray problem 100% solved. Someone buy me a drunk as thanks.

[@arilevi6871]

A lot of the shortcut aren't possible in older games they could reintroduce stricter inputs(like requiring the diagonals for supers and not allowing the up input for DP), but that goes against making the games more forgiving. As it stands each controller has its pros and cons, I don't really think it's a huge issue. If the people crying 'cheat' try out the hitbox I'm sure they won't think its such a big deal either.

[@riffcrypt8438]

I'm all for bringing back strict controls. Especially the inevitable salt harvest from the Strive generation. Huehuehue.

[@krkiva2]

For up/down left/right debates: Jumping always cause more risks than simply walking forward. it is justifiable. just force the direction layout like up down keys on the keyboard for hitboxes, or at least make rules to make them fair compared to how you can input on a game pad.

[@Avian07]

"It's cheating cause I don't want to adapt! Waaaaah" - some fgc baby

[@634233284]

I have chip in my head, lets me do all my fighting game moves at will, at the speed of thought. Is this cheating? Like, I 'm not an A.i. I'm just way faster then anybody elses fingers, hands and reflexes. Dose this mean I'm cheating?

[@gunblade72]

The only thing not cheap about the hitbox is the fucking price.

[@pawsouth2897]

I was so excited when I found a decent leverless controller for about 100$ (OC Punk workshop mini hitbox, never used, no socd cleaning sadly) that I told my non-FG friends about it and now they call me a rich idiot

[@bbobjs]

This really is a problem that has to be fixed software side because as "cheap" as the Hitbox is, standard console controllers are significantly more "cheap" (at the cost of being awkward) and it wouldn't be reasonable to ban those. My specific example is how Personal 4 Arena handled inputs from a PS3 controller, and although I've yet to test this on the PC version, I assume it'd be the same. In this game, while you could disable inputs from the Left Analog Stick (L3), leaving the L3 enabled didn't disable D-Pad inputs which would take priority over L3 inputs (this isn't standard for all games but has been standard for ArcSys games recently). As a result, you could dynamically redefine neutral on the D-Pad by articulating L3 at the cost of this being extremely awkward to do. So for example if you held down on L3 and pressed pressed forward twice on the D-Pad, the game would interpret this sequence as both a Dash (66) and a double quarter circle (236236) which when combined with a button would allow for instant dashing supers. You could also apply this on defense. Since the game didn't punish you for attempting to instant block, you could mash back on the D-Pad while holding down on L3, if you managed to instant block part of a string with a large enough gap to backdash out of, this would result in a situation where you could have the option of a canceling into a pre-buffered invincible super (depending on character) out of an invincible back dash out of a block string. Of course there are also the more obvious and simple applications such as moving forward with the D-pad while holding downback on L3 to instant block with negative edge in footsie situations. The game wasn't popular and this tech wasn't well known so I'm sure there are also a ton of practical applications I never thought of. At this point I assume anyone who's still reading is thinking that what I'm describing is simply too awkward to be of significant concern, but if the argument is that Hitbox is an issue because of all the things it allows you to do that wouldn't be possible on a "normal" controller then the upper limit of what's possible on a normal controller has to be considered. More importantly, I actually played this game on a Flight Stick, with with a D-Pad PoV Hat and enough buttons on the Throttle to control the game. As a result, I could dynamically articulate L3 as if it were an American style stick while also having a mostly natural thumb position on the D-pad, leaving my other hand free to press buttons on the Throttle. Imagine how much more effective a controller designed to exploit this type of oversight could be. Obviously this is mostly the fault of ArcSys for programming their games with dual directional input controllers as an afterthought, but I think it highlights exactly why the game has to have internal solutions for this type of nonsense. This maybe does make controllers like the hitbox that do internal direction canceling a bit of a problem, because realistically, what prevents future products from adding a 2nd set of directional inputs that allow for increasingly more complex direction canceling exploits (in fact, doesn't the smashbox basically already push way past the line here)?

[@BlueDiamondAssassin]

I tried out the traditional levered fight sticks first (still have one lying around) but I couldn't play on those for too long since my left hand started to have issues because of it. I have since then switched to a Hitbox layout and I can play for longer now.

[@MummyNapkin]

The whole point of the discussion isn't for casual players or even weekly tournaments. It's about the highest level players and tournaments

[@delta3244]

@@MummyNapkin Pro players' hands and wrists are _more_ at risk than anyone elses'. It seems sensible to allow controllers which are easier on hands/wrists _for the sake of the highest level players,_ no?

[@derago-dev]

Initially i didn't thought it wasn't cheating, but the more i think about it, the more it sounds like it to me. It's not like the "Joystick Vs Fighting Stick" dilema, there's functional advantages, that really seems unfair... Also, the "they are exploits" argument seems kinda weak to me, tournaments might have rules that were created before Hitboxes were a thing or even a viable controler, they might eventually change the rules based on community demands (I doubt it's gonna be any time soon, but still...)

[@FractalPrism.]

no other controller allows for Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Direction inputs. this alone makes it cheating. if your reasoning for using a HitBox is to use every advantage possible to win, then you explicitly admit a Hitbox controller creates an uneven playing field. its interesting that there's a new way to perform actions more effectively, but anyone not using a SOCD capable controller is automatically at a disadvantage. i cant say that i know the advantage itself is significant enough to matter, since ive not played against someone on a HitBox, but if you cannot even come close to doing a 4frame super on a non-SOCD controller then yes, its unfair and is CHEATING 100% turbo is not allowed for Chun-Li lightning legs, so hitbox should not be allowed either. macros are not allowed either. "Its not against the rules" does not mean it isnt unfair; just that it doesnt break the CURRENT rules. if Hitbox is okay then i want to enter a tournament with a level 99 A.I. or some kind of T.A.S. flawless input system. or ill enter a tourny with a Neural Link where i perfectly perform all moves with zero execution errors. Exploit means to take advantage of an oversight for your benefit. specifically "A program or system designed to take advantage of a particular error or security vulnerability in computers or networks." its quite literally cheating to exploit such a vulnerability.

[@NephewDork]

pad allows it too

[@NineConsonants]

It's not true that only buttonboxes can SOCD. Pads can SOCD in multiple ways, and even arcade sticks can. 1) Some d-pads are actually 4 buttons instead of a single piece of plastic. These allow for SOCD 2) Basically all fighting games count the joystick and the d-pad as the same directional inputs. You could press left on the d-pad and right on the joystick to SOCD. 3) Most games, and sometimes the console itself, allow you to map directional inputs to anything, as well as duplicate them, mostly for accessibility reasons (which is very good). You could have the D-Pad be the D-pad, but also R2 is up, for instance. This would let you SOCD. This problem gets even more highlighted with third party pads that have more buttons, such as the 8bitdo Pro 2's back grip buttons, or controllers with addons to push all shoulder buttons with the fingers on the back of the controller as levers. 4) #3 also applies to arcade sticks. If you have an 8 button stick and a 6 button game, you can map the spare buttons to directions. You can also add more buttons to your controller itself, and even hardwire the controller to the same output internally (wiring these buttons is super plug-and-play in most sticks and customizing them is encouraged for style points), i.e. buttons 1 and 9 both output as the same thing. This allows for a ton of SOCD, and even allows for you to keep a stick while gaining the advantage of a leverless controller.

[@poonsamurai]

Because keyboards don’t exist and haven’t been used to play fighting games for 3 decades. If you’re such a scrub that you think you’re losing matches to people on lever less boxes, then maybe it’s time to stop using a less efficient input method and get with the times.

[@whitead25]

Using a hitbox gives you way to much of an advantage on let's say PS4. The input delay is atrocious on PS. You cant react nearly as fast on a stick vs a hitbox.

[@saado99]

I commend all players for learning hitbox and getting better with it, if a hitbox player wins against me in a fighting game I wouldn't say he won because of the device and that he's cheating. It's just due to all the advantages of the device, and the type of things it allows that most other peripherals don't allow, this thing will literally have to force everyone else to use it, just like PEDs in sports. I also agree Capcom needs to be more clear on the SOCD, up having priority over down makes no sense, in anime games that can give you easy fuzzy guard that are frame perfect. Idk people say SOCD is also possible on a pad, but only when you cross the different directional devices (dpad -> analog and vice versa), not within itself. The things you can abuse with that, ie. the knuckledu tech, is limited to flashkicks and sonic booms, not things like doing ryu's super in 4f unless you have like a claw hand or something. I agree the word "cheating" is getting thrown around unfairly, it's not a TAS device or pay to win device. I think they throw that around to trigger hitbox users. It doesn't negate anything about all the positives with the device. The only negative about a hitbox is the difficulty. It's quite nice we live in an era of great input leniency and shortcuts that make the hitboxes one real disadvantage go away. Playing older street fighters or other games on this, even though it has all the advantages would be much more difficult.

[@TheOmegaRiddler]

I remember this controller being debated over in the Smash community, I think for me, it makes fighting games more accessible to those who can't use a traditional controller and I think it's unfair to ban it because they feel threatened

[@chubbstep]

up down actually is "instant" on levers. because jumping or flash kicking takes an amount of time, charging down can be done instantly after jumping or flash kicking has occurred. left right isn't the same case.

[@chrishipop5]

I think this is why fighting games are opting to make more easier controls, so there won’t such a huge divide.

[@mrblooper1994]

A loverless controller sounds like an apt name

[@Fox_RZK]

Thing is a lot of these games already have innate SOCD cleaning, and most of the SOCD tricks you can already pull off on pad using both the dpad and the stick. It's gonna take an awkward grip that might destroy your hands, but you can practice it, and you can get good at it, and because it provides a competitive advantage, people will and have gotten good at it even at the expense of their hands. A hitbox just allows you to do this without destroying your hands. To me this is just a rehash of the argument of "picking a top tier vs picking an honest mid tier character", right after people finally accepted that it's ok to pick top tiers. I guess people aren't ready to accept the possibility that stick is not optimal anymore, and rush to the same argument that stick is the "honest" way to play, and therefore any other method and by extension their tech is "dishonest" and therefore "cheap" and "cheating".

[@iota-09]

Stick was never optimal. It was better than d-pad only because d-pads suck due to their nature of not being individual buttons.(which wasn't a thing wity joycons and modified ds3/4 controllers, i wonder if that's what gave the idea to hitbox to make these... Or maybe it was keyboards? Are keyboards banned in the fgc?)

[@saaah707]

Seems people think devs can't do anything about socd but they can in fact nerf both last-win and first-input SOCD by smoothing the players input

[@moanasandford4029]

You always use the stick as comparison but the pad is way faster than the stick. So, by this logic, the pad is unfair.

[@michaelpowell3204]

Thanks for a great explanation, I didn't have an opinion before and now I'm convinced that SOCD cleaning should be banned. Thanks!