The Others, the Children and the Forest - livestream with Joe Magician

In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Game of Thrones, Westworld and more.
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cover art - Jon Neimeister
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[@datdipz7576]

These guys put more thought into the white walkers than D&D did in season 8

[@Jennifer-di4nl]

D & D hated ASOIAF

[@codranine6054]

👀

[@bronhaller]

In ADWD there is a reference to male CotF, and in Hodor’s walk through a hall of greenseers, one of the enthroned greenseers is specifically referred to as “he”, so CotF are not exclusively female, it’s just there aren’t many males

[@JoeMagician]

Appreciate having me on Robert! Lovely chat by the way, you all are too good to us :) Also #whisperjewelheartofwinter spread it around, we will bring the Truth to the unbelievers.

[@brandonblackfyre5783]

Love your stuff bro keep up the good work

[@AndrewK23777]

Joe Magician , great to have you on , great analysis and insights as always ; hope to have you back on here frequently and look forward to your content on your and other channels.

[@hatihattencoat5268]

Hashtag has no results

[@JoeMagician]

@@hatihattencoat5268 I'm disappointed...

[@hatihattencoat5268]

@@JoeMagician me too, subscribed to your excellent channel to alleviate the feeling. Watched your very informative video on same. Am now content and looking forward to the sci-fi story about the computer/ captains mother

[@gettingtoastedatq]

I like the way Joe used his intro. I was like hell yeah we are about to go deep in this. Always love your context Robert

[@Syntheconductor]

I always enjoy discussions on the Others and the days of old, thanks for great discussions as always

[@patriciacastromedina9072]

This is one of my favorite topics within ASOIF. Love Joe magician!

[@kimberlygl36]

hey Robert !! Been outta the loop of youtube ,since around xmas ,i've got M.S and have had an awful relapse/flare up and typing is a big no as my hands ache . but i had to let you know even tho ive been out of the loop i've been listening and going back rewatching now that i im home , i've got to say it so nice to see , A you're subs are above 54000 now n ur streams are staying strong at 400 plus and for u sir it is well earned, and B the collabs are GREAT i Love A&A @how and LML , Joe, Lady Gray and Gemma of course , n sir n lady greenhands.....but u are certainly at the top of my list !! n i believe the numbers speak for themselves !! Love from sunny but cold Florida , AND c the whole How GRRM colad For GRRM , how he changed lives, i think that was a beautiful thing and i somehow pray that Grrm will see.hear or learn of it , yes many of us FANS say o come on we need twow ..well ASOIF has changed my life in every way ..i've always been a vivacious reader , but never has a book, series touched me n such away any time im having a rough time {health} i pick it up and the D n E novellas and im transported into westeros , with help from ur Travellers Guide, of course THANK YOU FOR ALL U DO !!!!

[@InDeepGeek]

Bless you, Kimberly! Thank you so much, and I hope that the relapse is now all in the past.

[@nightcitypunk8517]

This theory fits like a glove. I heard it a couple weeks ago and have been looking into it. Without a doubt it fits.

[@charlese2714]

HOLY ****!!!!!!! You are absolutely right Joe and I can back you up. I had an epiphany that struck so hard watching this video that I stopped it half way through to run and verify something in "A Dance With Dragons". This blows my understanding of the story wide open but only because I realized you were wrong on one crucial point. Why the White Walkers are targeting Jon Snow specifically. They don't believe Jon is Azor Ahai reborn but in fact Jon is the only means in which Lightbringer can be reborn. There are several key points which back this up. The first is Jon himself. You talked about the similarities between Jon and Waymar at the start of the video. Their body types were described like a knife. Jon's eyes are grey which is the color of steel. Jon is a master swordsman and wields a Valyrian steel blade. He is unyielding in his honor and commitment to do the right thing. So many of his traits and characteristics could also describe a sword. The second point is what I had to verify in the book. When Jon is betrayed and stabbed he pulled the dagger out and described the wound as "smoking" due to the cold air. Now the correct term would be "steaming" so this was a deliberate choice by Martin. In "Fire and Blood" wounds to dragons are also described as "smoking" and I thought was a nod to Jon's assumed Targaryen heritage in the books. Now I know it's meant to be foreshadowing. In the prophecy it says that Azor Ahai reborn will pull Lightbringer from a burning fire. In a previous interview Martin described Beric Dondarion as a "fire wight". So if Jon is resurrected or has his body restored by Melissandra he would also be a "fire wight" or even "living fire" as Lightbringer is also described. This leads to me third point which changes the story the most in that the Azor Ahai legend itself doesn't make sense or is being misinterpreted. During the Long Night Azor Ahai and the living were powerless UNTIL Lightbringer was forged. Ergo Lightbringer was the most crucial element in defeating the White Walkers. They surely remember how they lost and intend to prevent it from happening again. Jon is the literal combination of Ice and Fire and magic from both bloodlines is likely required to recreate Lightbringer. He is also the only person to have it. Dany has dragons and other characters can lead armies but in the videos discussion Lightbringer is Jon having Valyrian steel at Hardhome. It changes the game. Remove him and it's over. In addition the legend is thousands of years old and is folklore at this point. The reality of a story like that would fit Tolkien not Martin. With the White Walkers access to a green seers ability, the Weirwood network, or just their own history would give them the truth. Also if they sleep for thousands of years then really how many generations for them has it been since the Long Night? The fourth point it that Melissandra can't interpret ****. Melissandra asks to Azor Ahai and is shown Jon Snow but she is unreliable in prophecy and likely being shown what's important without realizing it. Martin kept Lightbringer in the story and it would be within Melissandra's character to only see the sword as a way to identify Azor Ahai instead of something more important. After all the initial information came from or by way of her. It all totally fits. All the Azor Ahai vids I watched now seem irrelevant in my own head. Will one of these awesome channels or just anyone please tell me if I am wrong because all that literally rushed into me head in like 30 seconds so I haven't thought through all the pieces.

[@thecomet6276]

Matt Eldridge - ❤️👍👏👏👏 And to add to what you said, the other day during a livestream (was it this one?), I wondered if maybe Mel was not being shown SNOW but instead was being shown ASH. Eh? Smoking, not steaming. Burning, not freezing. 😉

[@annawisdomsdottir4947]

I totally agree that Jon (not some sword) is Light Bringer. Remember: Kill the boy so the man can be born? Another piece of this puzzle. Jon essentially kills the boy through his actions.

[@matorchiana]

The letter that comes to Jon Snow from the boats he sent to rescue in Hardhome is that "there are dead things in the water" ... it seems that the water was not a barrier

[@louiscassis3426]

Loved this stream! Made me rethink the Children of the Forest. I used to think they were more innocent but now I think they’re just like everyone else. Some good, some bad. I now have an image of Bran finally being disillusioned with them and he will have to escape the grip of them and of Bloodraven who has been captured and co-opted by them.

[@bullionsean456]

Houses Stark and Royce ARE both descended from the First Men. Perhaps the First Men Houses share some common traits.

[@JoeMagician]

The Royces also have been marrying relatively into the Starks recently, and three Stark daughters married into the Vale in the last couple generations.

[@hatihattencoat5268]

@@JoeMagician how do you marry in any other way than revlatively? (Don't think copying your spelling helps)

[@JoeMagician]

@@hatihattencoat5268 Ahhh crap. I meant relatively recently. Missed a word.

[@hatihattencoat5268]

@@JoeMagician dude my apologies, got there as I was making a brew. Enjoying your views btw. One quick question: years since conquest, s'only been one winter depending on how you look at it. Relevant?

[@hatihattencoat5268]

@@JoeMagician oh, and that was when Reed turned up

[@zmsays]

You mentioned the 'old enemies' showdown between the Three Eyed Crow and the Night's King...what if the relationship between the greenseers and what we know as the 3EC is something closer to a relationship between a warg and their chosen wolf/dog/animal? It's been said that each side of the warg partnership loses part of himself to the other. What if what we know right now as the 3EC is something like the weirwood net's guardian/chief ward, but each greenseer leaves an imprint of himself upon that entity?

[@zmsays]

Granted, it may have its limits considering how much use Bran makes of the birds in the caves, and how he can still feel the presence of other 'souls' in those birds. Would it be out of line to think that the 3EC serves as some sort of, umm, warg reaper, to cull the greenseers and bring them back to the weirwood net, and in the process gets some essence of each seer in the process. What if the Nights King refused to rejoin the weirwood net? I need to stop before someone says NK is Neo.

[@timw2007]

What if the NK is just another player in the game of thrones. He's a king with an army and he's expanding his kingdom.

[@gonecoastal4]

The Disney route. Just subverting expectations. Haha. I like it.

[@fraux573]

@Roland Deschain A very late, very uninformed thought: noone really "needs" to be king. But many want to be for various reasons.

[@darksister96]

Always a great video Robert so glad i found your channel! :) sorry i missed it live dang work lol :) great to see Joe come on he always has great thoughts

[@Luziferrum]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are nine Other Commanders. After re-reading TLotR this Christmas, the Others remind me a lot of the Ringwraiths.

[@freealbemuth9871]

We talk about the weirwood network, and I think that really says it. The weirwoods are an organic computer/database. The Children could have constructed the network from some ordinary type of tree, like the oak that’s used as a substitute in many godswoods. I believe the mechanism they use is related to the idea of genetic/cellular memory as explored in the Dune series, but the longevity of the trees substituting for genetic descendants, both things ensuring the ongoing existence of the consciousness in question

[@belalsweepe1063]

Great content again!! Thank you so much

[@DvDO7]

I have a theory. What if there are two factions of the children of the forest. We all know that GRRM emphasizes the idea that there are moral shades of grey and what if there was a faction of the COTF that still holds a grudge. What if there were some COTF that broke the pact and created the white walkers as a sort of revenge and maybe they are still kind of controlling them. What if it wasn't only the Wall holding them back but someone like three eye raven who's sole purpose was to watch the others. Also, it's a big coincidence that the others show up when the targaryans are gone. Maybe that's why they have been waiting this whole time bc they associate targaryan with dragons. Maybe they used their greensight to foresee the return of dragons and are now making their move

[@baluthagod]

This guy voice is the truth. He should have been my teacher in school lol

[@danlapointe5140]

In Deep, you have brought up an idea that I have given some deal of thought too. LmL calls it LH math. You mentioned a quote, “ The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places.” And you were lending your thoughts to the idea that this was some deliberate word play by GRRM. Joe Magician confesses that he hasn’t given much thought to the numerology. I’d like to add to your thoughts. Here’s a quote, “They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.” The math here is 3 + 4 + 5 = 12. That matches up nicely giving them each one stab a piece. And I also think that this is written in such a way as to be purposely vague. So as to allow for more than one meaning. Such is the artistry of GRRM. I also think there was some foreshadowing for this. Earlier in the chapter Waymar asks Will, “ Have you drawn any watches this past week, Will?”. To which Will replies, “Yes ,m’lord”. Then Will thinks, “There never was a week when he did not draw a dozen bloody watches. What was the man driving at?” ….”Draw” or “Drawn” refers to the swords being drawn. Next, the swords in the prologue all personify their wielder. So the Others in the Prologue are the swords that are drawn. Does this mean that Will drew them? I believe so but that can be another discussion. Furthermore, the Others in the Prologue are referred to as watchers. Here’s the quote, “Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent….Then, of coarse, “bloody” would refer to the “cold butchery”. I think this idea goes on to support some of the ideas of Joe Magician and LmL. Thanks for reading this long comment. I hope Joe Magician and LML will see it. What are your thoughts??

[@tgoodfella4290]

I like it. Too bad you only got 1 like for all of that lol good shit though

[@JoRiver11]

The sacrifices that the CotF made to the Weirwoods makes me think of the movie Cat People (early 80's). It ties in with Robert's thoughts about how it changed the trees. In that movie, the people sacrifice their children to the panthers and eventually they become one, in a sense. Totally worth checking out if you're into that theory.

[@stevesmith4600]

I think Preston speculated on this, but I always found it odd ... Why is Raymar, a noble from the Veil and a bad fighter, volunteering for the Night's Watch and ranging north of the wall?

[@JohnDelVentomusic]

Really top info here!

[@brandonblackfyre5783]

The door in the night forts castle is basically a door to scariface childern and the nights watch new

[@eds1942]

Martin has said that the seasons for his World operate the same as it does for ours. In others words, it’s due to the Planet’s axial tilt in relation to it’s sun. However, he said that there is a magical element as to why the seasons are so out of whack, which will be resolved by the end of the series. As to, “do the White Walkers bring the cold of Winter or vice versa?” The White Walkers are simply the anthropomorphic representation of a harsh winter. So both could be said as true. ----- One thing to consider in concern to the Long Nights and the seasons in general is that the planet has a low density thanks to it being metal poor, however the Red Comet is, well, red. What would cause it to be Red and why is it the harbinger for the Long Night and Azor Ahai? It might be red due to it having a high iron content. Could it be possible that the Comet holds the bulk of the World’s missing metal content? If so, then if it’s strong enough and were to come close enough, it might be able to throw off the stability of the planet’s magnetic field or perhaps even its tilt. That and magic and the dragons returned to the World when the Red Comet appeared in the sky.

[@premaderemade]

@JoeMagician referencing World of Warcraft in a Game of Thrones chat.

[@JoeMagician]

I can't help myself

[@prof.cecilycogsworth3204]

I really like Joe Magician's point about dragons!

[@dartfrogger]

I disagree..... when you have even the smallest grounding in reality, it gives it a sense of believability and legitimacy.... which helps you to suspend disbelief... which if course, works in this particular fantasy which is less "magic saturated," which makes it more relatable and believable.. as opposed to something like Xanth, which is far less grounded in reality, and far less believable. Having a story with foundations of reality as we know it, helps to bring in fans who tend to shy away from soft scifi and fantasy because of the lack of believability.

[@darrenfromwales7978]

Could they be after a stark because of the secrets of the wall and winterfell. As in the magics

[@anthonysvokos2697]

It’s never stated in the books (yet anyway) that the Children created the White Walkers. That was a show thing. But it goes against Martin’s established history. The White Walkers didn’t first appear until the Long Night, which was 4,000 years after the Pact, which ended the war between the Children and the First Men.

[@scion166]

"I love Howland from afar" same

[@Manwendlil]

what if jon snow isn´t quite so important, as some are bound to believe? he could stay dead, and never be brought back to live, (g.r.r.martin is fond of killing characters off, that seem to be unkillable...) could the others have watched the rangers for quite long time? did they watch the nightswatch for a far longer time, from the shadows, waiting for what only they may know?

[@joelkavanagh1464]

,,, so many worlds,, so many visions ...

[@ncps6176]

GreyArea said something similar. I liked this.

[@daniellewynne3451]

NK can see in future so he already knew what Jon look like. And He definitely could have been a case of mistaken identity because Waymar looks like Jon.

[@nightcitypunk8517]

The prologue theory, that is.

[@jat3916]

How could the others be like the stone men when we actually watch Bran’s vision of Leaf turn a human man into the first white walker. The comment you made that the greenseers children of the forest where there is a female seer with white hair involved in the pact and the other female green seer that Bran calls Snowylocks became of her white hair?

[@insomniac8055]

If the books play out like the show with the part of the night kings creation could it be possible that the childrens pact with the original men was to imprison the first night king in the depths of winterfell with magic and the men dont cut trees down anymore? i say this as its seems the night king we have now was created to wake the others once again and the timing coincides with the burning down of summerhall with all its trees? thus being the pact is broken and the children need someone to control the whites again to destroy men for what they have done. think its osha who says they were just sleeping, this being until someone can control them.

[@Manwendlil]

why did the other offer waymar royce a duel, they could have easily killed him quite outright?

[@tigiblahblah7798]

History is shared...Either directly or indirectly but all human (we created history).

[@evelyneprofichetbenveniste3365]

.Aegon the Conqueror had two sisters: The stern Visenya and the beautiful Rhaenys. Both dragonriders and both great fighters. Jon /Aegon has also two sisters: Arya the stern fighter and skilled killer and the beautiful Sansa, Lady of Winterfell. Does GoT history rhymes here? To go further with this idea could we imagine Arya that J.R.R.Martin allowed us to follow so closely from childhood dreams of the great Visenya to the Faceless men formation in Braavos will be the great sister of Aerys/Jon, the one who will pick up his face and full of wrath will herself ride a dragon to go after the Night King and kill him?

[@hatihattencoat5268]

How do they measure years since conquest?

[@Nga_Babaye]

34:00 I know two climate scholars over at the college that love ASoIaF. They were telling me during the book club I host that they were curious if the weather patterns were as they are because planetos is heading into normal ice age phase like normal science taught back in the 1970s and 1980s and GRRM was relying on that science to flesh things out. We also talk about climate disruption via comet. They sure have a lot of comets.

[@theheadbangguy5985]

Is it just me, or does Robert look a bit like Frank Lampard? :D

[@JoRiver11]

And I think Joe the Magician looks quite a bit like Eddie Izzard

[@hatihattencoat5268]

@@JoRiver11 bang on

[@ThommyofThenn]

Waymar - "way more." The others paid Way-Mar attention to him. Way-More attention to him. Interesting.

[@bore-osofmyr2539]

Poor Weymar! If ever a guy DIDN’T know what he was getting into..

[@curtiswfranks]

It strikes me that dragons are like nukes and the Others are like a biological weapon which has been dormant for a long time.

[@burntorangehorn]

I sometimes wonder what it is that makes us all assume that Bloodraven exists to help humankind against the Others. Stepping back a bit, seems like there's no persuasive evidence of it.

[@chrisconnor8086]

Wights could make a bridge pretty fast

[@terridrake8356]

they can freeze the rivers to get across

Leaf didn’t see what Bran saw in the vision, Bran didn’t know that the guy was the NK being made! Leaf might have thought that Bran saw the making of the ORIGINAL WWs, so she said “we we’re at war” But in fact Bran saw Azor Ahai/Last Hero being turned into a WW! If you think about it, it is highly unlikely that all the wws have dragonglass in their chests, especially Craster’s grownup ww sons..... the NK is special because of it, and if I’m right, he must had been a warg and a greenseer and a Stark (maybe Snow with Starkblood) so he could have power over the original NK and WWs!!! And I also think that the 3eyedraven is the first Night King (the one who’s bearded face was drawn on the cavewalls at Dragonstone), and he is trying to get to the God’s Eye to regain full power, helped by the remaining CoF. Since their race has almost gone extinct, it is logical to presume, that they would try to regain their land this one last time! That is why I think that the current NK is active, because he’s become strong enough to fight the 3eyed raven (since the 3eyed raven can’t reanimate dead things, only the living, so the NK is to have as many dead soilders as possible). And Benjen/coldhands was saved by the Children, because he had STARK blood, and they wanted him to replace Brynden’s old body, but he wasn’t a warg or greenseer, so he became useless. Not to mention, that the ww-s attacked the cave only after NK touched Bran in the vision (kinda in order to locate the 3eyed raven, because the NK must had been sure, that he was training someone). And yes, he was an ancient enemy of the NK, but he was faster, and skinchanged into Brans body before the NK killed Brynden Rivers’ body.... oh and of course, the NK hadn’t breached the wall until Bran have gotten through! He only had to wait for the dragon (remember, the guy is a greenseer), to go after the 3eyed raven! Oh and Waymar and Jon look similar, and they simply killed him because he realised that he wasn’t the one they were looking for and there for he was useless (no Starkblood)

[@zacharypalmer8581]

First men blood. Its not really specific to Jon.

[@Aezeus]

This makes the most sense to me

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Word. It seems the focus on Jon is just a way to attach this theory to his other theories on the CotF and the Others and the Weirwoods. Gotta watch out for tin foil-smiths looking to connect all of their musings together into one unified quilt. A very uncomfortable quilt. And shiny.

[@50shades91]

What of the NK wants to team up with the north to take down Cersei? Maybe her evil is so prevalent that even the NK wants to take her down?

[@eddielongs1]

He will team up with Jon Snow cuz of the threat Cersis' team can bring.....

[@katfishrick1600]

I'm still curious how Gared got over/past the wall.

[@thecomet6276]

I can’t believe I have never wondered this myself. Ty for addressing this. I don’t think he’d go back to the Night’s Watch before heading south.

[@hatihattencoat5268]

He didn't, he is a fictional character

[@katfishrick1600]

@@hatihattencoat5268 that response was bad...and you should feel bad.

[@hatihattencoat5268]

Only trying to help. How have they measured the years since conquest?

[@katfishrick1600]

@@Wherethereisnodarkness maybe if he had gone to the Shadow Tower. He would have been much too well known at Castle black to have just slipped out, and the Old Bear would have believed him imo.

[@eirikborlaug3386]

Steve Bannon loves ASOIAF

[@captainanopheles4307]

I like the guests but I think, overall, I prefer solo casts.

[@RandyMarshFrmSP]

Are these released on podcast form?

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

So, Craster says he liked Gared - wouldn't you know it, Gared's the one who seems most insistent on heading back and dismissive of what killed the wildlings. Gared's the one who survives of the three. Wonder if Craster pulled Gary to the side and gave him a warning. Wonder if Craster said "could you spare the uglier one? He's good people" to his icicle kin.

[@33wolf33]

Maybe if they bring the winter if they go in water they run the risk of freezing the water areound them and trapping them selves

[@burntorangehorn]

Several times people reference CotF as having created the Others. That's only in the TV series so far, no?

[@jason32742]

Little late to this, but here me out. If the white walkers cannot cross water, they cant make it to the gods eye. The crossroads inn is as far south has they can go.

[@gazorpazorpgazorpazorp3547]

1:18:30 Lol welp there goes that idea

[@katericochran4634]

The guy who escaped might have been let go because they knew he would end up at Winterfell, perhaps hoping to draw out the Starks. And if the Night King is a Stark, he might have the ability to bring Winter. And eventually all the Starks left Wnterfell causing it to fall into the hands of men who were evil. And if the Night King was somehow connected to the Wierwood trees, he might have known about the birth of the dragons and he wants to see the death of the dragons. And he might even know Jon's connection to the dragons. Their also seems to be a theme that the Starks involvement with their women eventually led to their downfall.

[@akeyladog420]

What is ice...frozen water. What happens to ice when you run water on it? There you go, that is as simple as it get.

[@IainCiplinski]

What if the White Walkers are Children waarged into First Men, their souls sealed in by dragon glass. Created to save the Children but they went insane.

[@Slechy_Lesh]

11:50

[@emrek99205]

Is there a non-livestream version of this topic? Instead of bantering on for 107.64 hours, consolidate the topic and make a video of the conclusion(s) in a digest version.

[@johnnym8717]

Wait i thought the white walkers were PADI qualified salvage divers. Certainly took a lot of in depth deep sea knowledge to hoist a 200 ton dragon out of an icy river. Oh. Nvm D and D probably jist forgot about the water rule they established like Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet.

[@brandonblackfyre5783]

You guys should of brought LmL on for that re-read of the first chapter backwards

[@IainCiplinski]

There are no humans in Westeros.

[@ugx7td5]

They killed Royce just for attention. No one from south of the wall cared about whats going on north the wall. The magic of the wall is strong, the Others cant pass. They need dragonfire to melt it. And for a dragon they need a reason that someone rides a dragon north. Lets say a trapped Jon and a loving Dany rescuing him. Ice spear. Booom. I think the NK gave somehow Dany the power to hatch dragons. Just to take later one. He caused also the doom just to get the dragons more to the west. He does it step by step and in a brilliant way.

[@joelkavanagh1464]

,,, th' CRys-dOM yuff WouRS ...

[@Midorikonokami]

the innocent days when people still had hope for season 8 and the Pale Mare hadn't leaked into the real world.