The Perfect Daughter's Dark Secret: The Jennifer Pan Story

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[@TheCasualCriminalist]

👟 Check out Vessi styles at www.vessi.com/TCC. Use code TCC for 15% off your order. Free shipping for CA, US, AU, JP, TW, KR, SGP.

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Love this channel mate😊😊😊😊

[@batmanpancake96]

I am not ashamed to say I watch the video and listen to the pod on Google. I end up listening to both, whichever comes out first

[@jessgunn6639]

bad memory simon you did drink during one of your episodes you were working late and decided to have i think a glass of wine? lol

[@bandersnatchbeauty9692]

Simon, I got Vessi, but they don't keep my feet cool in the heat. I'm still all sweaty. Also, they need a safety toe variant because it's rough wearing them at my job.

[@Darth-Claw-Killflex]

GARBAGE, severely OVERPRICED, ugly ass shoes.

[@stevenotto1456]

John Oliver pointed out on his show that many police tell young, naive and even mentally challenged suspects that asking for a lawyer is on par with pleading guilty, and the punishment would be drastically higher. This is something no law enforcement officials should ever be allowed to say or even insinuate, IMO.

[@sgtrielly]

I brought that exact video in my own comment. I feel you definitely have a point on that, it's a big sticking point for me. But the context of everything else that happens in police interrogation, as well as how those confessions are treated after the fact in court, is WAY more complicated than Liam makes it out to be. (Which might be just because I'm talking about the US side here, so I'm not blaming him.)

[@morkusmorkus6040]

Lol. If you're innocent then it doesn't mattet what they police say will make you "look" guilty.

[@toxxicx]

@@morkusmorkus6040 tell that to the people convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

[@kitalalaris]

They're technically not allowed to say that. But the majority of Canadian officials are... not exactly upstanding human beings themselves and have a long, infamous history of either getting the wrong results or if they do get the right results they come entirely too late due to sheer, unrepentant laziness.

[@jannetteberends8730]

I just wrote a comment that I’m not a fan of lying during an interrogation. Imo there should be rules for it. And one of the rules is: only allowed when a lawyer is present. Just because not all police officers of high ethical standing and fairness. And people should be protected against that. There is a quote: Better 10 murderers walk free, than one innocent man hanged. Forget who said that.

[@aromaladyellie]

The scary thing is she might have gotten away with this if she JUST STAYED IN HER ROOM the whole time and claimed to have slept through it, having fallen asleep studying with music in. Her dad might have bled out and died and even if he lived he wouldn’t be a witness to her. Her brother would have come home and been the one to phone emergency services. They’d let her live not knowing she was even there. Her father was shot on accident during the break in so they killed then both. They could so easily have gotten away with this if she had just stayed in her room. I’m glad she was so foolish.

[@thecrispymaster]

I thought it would have made more sense if she'd just hidden in her room somewhere. Not only would the dad not have been a witness to her doing the crimes, but any questioning would come down to "I don't know, I couldn't see anything" or "I don't know, I couldn't make out what was being being said". A simple narrative like this is much easier to keep straight rather than the one she created that she ending up contradicting multiple times.

[@madammarshmallow9468]

I thought It was weird she didn't arrange for it while she was at piano practice

[@darkacademiac]

yeahh, or if she hid under the bed or in her closet while calling the police while the hitmen ran out. her father would've been by her side and corroborated her claims that she wasn't there, instead of walking around with the hitmen and tying herself to the banister its so stupid 😭

[@Doktor_Apokalypse]

More tips for criminals 😁

[@Lordrocky24]

Someday, Simon's kids are going to watch these videos and see all of the amazing things he has said about them. I hope they find it even more heartwarming than I do.

[@playman350]

And then they'd hear Simon go on a tirade about the death penalty 😂

[@jetcitykitty]

It is so sweet, a genuinely good person and father, Simon is ❤️ lucky woman, his wife 😊

[@NextEevolution]

"Huh, so that's where I get those tangents..."

[@garyz2043]

Then they will work out he's worth a few quid and he as told them all they need to know.

[@FabianRaphaelKrenn]

Then they will call him Factboy.

[@TDM4224]

I like the episodes where the writers reach out to other writers. It makes it seem like the writers are friends and everyone just has a good time toiling away in the basement making all scripts needed to support Simon’s KZbin empire.

[@MatthewMarcum]

Hello, everyone! I hope you all enjoy this episode. Huge thanks to @thelegalliam for his contribution!

[@karlhungus1012]

Love your work Matthew!

[@kendellstewart2090]

Thanks for writing Matthew.

[@erics3956]

Mat you're a champion.

[@Tuturial464]

Highway of Tears. We need something big, serious, a huge issue, and Canadian

[@AgapeForgotten]

Another interesting, but very sad story is of Dee Dee Blanchard, but that isn't her real name. It's depressing for all the wrong reasons..

[@Shunt1995]

Yes we need another channel where Simon like once a month just gets progressively move hammered and tries to read the script “ decoding the Whistler “

[@LegitimateCK4120]

I want this BADLY

[@miciah3676]

@TheCasualCriminalist this is the BEST idea and should be considered

[@denryaron6238]

imagine, constantly going on tangents instead of sticking to the script... oh wait

[@vikramkrishnan6414]

@@denryaron6238 Isn't that just Business Blaze?

[@mcsquared8800]

A Sip with Simon :)))

[@s4-bf6vp]

I think we could all agree it would be HIGHLY entertaining to watch Simon stumble through an hour script getting progressively more wine drunk. maybe on a Decoding episode

[@emilyishere1994]

I can totally see that! Drunk unsolved mysteries?

[@grahamcomer4302]

​@@emilyishere1994unsolved & uncorked 😊

[@RealElongatedMuskrat]

​@@grahamcomer4302 GRAHAM you're a genius haha

[@tophers3756]

A progressively drunk Brain Blaze.

[@s4-bf6vp]

​@@tophers3756 Brain Blazed would be absolutely unhinged

[@billykann7725]

As someone who had a flip phone as a kid, you memorize the phone, learn to text without looking. Of everything, to me being able to dial 911 blind with my hands tied back, would be possible, especially someone who texts quite often.

[@Narangarath]

Yeah, even a non-texting person could fumble their way to dialing emergency services without seeing the phone if the phone has physical buttons. If it was a smart phone I know I'd be dead if I couldn't see it.

[@billykann7725]

@@Narangarath my phone actually has an emergency call function built in, holding down power for 6 seconds then pressing an option on the screen. Alternatively it can detect car crashes and automatically call 911 and give them the GPS coordinates... Technology is amazing.

[@Narangarath]

@@billykann7725 I'd still need to see the phone to press options on the screen. And technology is amazing, until is stops working.

[@M-_-O]

Flip phones are easier to use in this situation because the number buttons might have raised text or even just a single raised dot in the center of the keyboard. 90s kids remember how to SMS message with barely an eye on their hands. Dialing 911 on a flip phone is much easier than on a modern phone.

[@Bluesit32]

Dialing it, perhaps...but finding the speaker function sounds much trickier.

[@werelemur1138]

The problem with the "punishing dumb criminals" theory is that genuinely innocent people won't think they need a lawyer because they've done nothing wrong. I was told throughout my childhood that the police could be trusted. Also, if you've just been through a traumatic experience you're probably not thinking clearly.

[@luxorien]

I think he was saying that innocent people who implicate themselves will never actually enter a plea because they will be given a lawyer at that point whether they ask for one or not. And once that public defender meets with them to discuss what their plea is going to be, the case will fall apart if the only evidence is made up.

[@frocat5163]

This. Pretty much every attorney in the US will tell you that you should NEVER speak to the police without an attorney. Police are liars who don't give a damn about helping anyone. Their job is to secure arrests and convictions, period. Most people want to help so-called authority figures, and most people want to prove they're innocent when questioned about a crime. Police are taught to use these things against individuals they've arrested...which is why they will lie through their teeth to get you to confess, even if you haven't done anything. I'll repeat: Police don't give a damn about helping people or the truth; they care about securing arrests and convictions.

[@KH-tt3wv]

Yeah, Liam's take here surprised me. For one thing, you aren't punishing criminality at that point, it's just a gotcha for people not savvy enough to request a lawyer. I'm not okay with the justice system functioning as some sort of ad hoc intelligence test, and dumb criminals don't "deserve" to be caught more than smart criminals. If having a lawyer is the only stopgap against police investigative abuses, then it shouldn't be permissible for police to conduct interviews or interrogations without a lawyer present on behalf of the person being questioned. Otherwise, it only serves to exacerbate existing prejudices and inequities.

[@citizenvulpes4562]

​@@KH-tt3wv That sounds too soft. An interrogation would go nowhere, especially on smart criminals.

[@Nevernamed]

​@@KH-tt3wv See, my problem with this is that by law in both the US and Canada, the first thing police legally HAVE to do in an interrogation is beat into the suspect's head the idea that they have the right to remain silent, and the right to an attorney. They have to state that, and then have the subject confirm that they understand that. I don't understand how it's the police's problem at that point when they are legally mandated to tell you that you don't have to say a word.

[@WildBillCox13]

Re: pianist as a life choice. If you work at it and keep your nose clean you can make quite a decent living as a pianist. Touring with a tribute band or a middle level pop act will put your kids through college, buy you a nice house, and a two car travel inventory. Working as a single, you can impress venue owners and get steady work forever performing instrumental standards. Hang in a jazz club and you might find gigs, too. There are tons of horn players and guitarists-the world is full of them-but decent pianists are the backbone of any successful musical presentation, be it a play, a musical, opera, concert, or piano bar virtuoso. And those, my man, are in short supply. In the old days, before you were born, piano bars abounded. A decent-not stellar-pianist could make a decent living. Indeed, some places rose or fell on the quality of their piano or after hours jam around it. Now, it's high end clubs and top notch restaurants who are desperate for decent pianists. They pay very well. I've done all of these, so I have a clue.

[@WildBillCox13]

I have forgotten the wedding circuit. A lot of good money to be made by those who are well behaved and willing to provide suitable background ambiance at weddings and various other organizational affairs (dinners, tributes, awards ceremonies, et al). These are perennial, as far as opportunity for work goes.

[@jannetteberends8730]

I know someone that is a piano teacher, using the Suzuki method. He has a very exiting life. Giving workshops and so.

[@magical571]

i find it a little confusing though, why decide for her what succesful is. In this case it seemed like she wasn't genuinly interested in piano either, but let's say she was, why not support her and let her live at the pace she decides is good for her instead of assuming she wants like 5 kids a penhouse 3 teslas and a private island. She can definitely make a living, even simon mentions minimum wage jobs, she could definitely earn that level of money with some piano skills, why is one considered an option and not the other? even though a talented pianist has a way higher ceiling potentially? sure it feels way less secure than being a doctor, but spending that amount of time and effort, for a job that for at least 20 years is gonna absorb your life (you don't start in healthcare just working at your office once a week and earning buckets of money. you start at the night shifts in emergency posts, daily 9 to 5 patient checking, etc. and even then when you earn more, you'll still be working quite a big amount of hours, so you better enjoy SOMETHING about it or you are just gonna be going to your job for booze money, and drinking just to get through your week lol, not great. That really is something he shouldn't be deciding for anyone other than himself. That's not even counting that to earn what her father probably envisioned, she would have needed one if not two specializations, at that point you better like your field in some significant way, or at the very least not resent it. I hate what she did, but seriously, her dad was pretty crappy. Not monster levels of crappy of course, but i would say very blinsided by his own strict ideals, deciding before his kids were even born what they would go on to do in life, that's at least a bit messed up. And if someone says "oh but thats common in asia/X culture" it really doesn't matter. Torture is also a tradition if you will lol. it can be criticized.

[@cricketharley5014]

I will never understand how Simon can read so much true crime yet be 100% wholesome and heartwarming even when being super serious. I always look forward to watching.

[@Seanii9323]

Please cover the disappearance of Lynette Dawson from Australia. They have only just convicted her killer after she disappeared mysteriously in 1982. It's quite the scandalous story. A podcast investigation helped spur on justice for Lynette years later.

[@Shell553]

Absolutely agree . Lynette Dawson has never been found and her ex husband only just got convicted

[@kyleadelaide]

If we're doing Australian stuff, The Family murders in Adelaide too. Seriously sick stuff... Also the Snowtown bodies in barrels case.

[@michaeljacobs9532]

This sounds interesting!

[@QueenRaven911]

It’s always strange to hear cases in and around the Toronto area, it’s even stranger hearing a case that I can relate to, as an Asian-Canadian. I take this to heart. I lived through this kind of unrealistic expectation from my father, but it isn’t an excuse for anyone to harm one’s own family. I learned how to deal with it, and learned not to put my own child through this kind of pressure.

[@100th_monkey]

Respect to you for being the person to say the pattern stops with me, that's a big deal. I'm sorry you had to deal with it, too.

[@bakugounokacchan4502]

I love how hyped I get when casual criminal goes over cases that I've watched others do videos about they always feel like I'm experiencing it a different way

[@nancypine9952]

There's also the fun of knowing what happened, and seeing him slowly get there.

[@lilyofthevalley2048]

My parents were friends with a guy who lied about going to med school. He definitely attended college, because that’s where my dad met him, but he didn’t attend any medical classes. His parents would make out tuition checks to him, not the university, and he lied about working at a local hospital. Apparently, when it all came out (side note: my parents found out about it the day before I was born), his parents blamed his wife for it, though God only knows why. She eventually left him and married someone much better. Thankfully, no one died in this case because of his lies.

[@advena996]

Yeah, I've heard stories like this! It's kind of wild, and really sad, how people dig their way into holes like this.

[@ninjagirl226]

I do the opposite. I deny that I have my doctorate. Nothing good can come from that torture. Rather just pretend it never happened and that I’m still the person I once was.

[@function0077]

Look up the murder of Lori Hacking in Utah. It is similar to your story, but more tragic because the lying husband killed his wife.

[@Azeahne]

I lied about graduating college. nothing ever came of it because I never took money from my parents under false pretenses and they're good people who forgave me when the truth came out.

[@duelbraids]

The thing that gets me with this one is that the lie is entirely unnecessary, on top of it being stupid. They could've just said, "Hey, your father woke up from his coma." and that would've pushed her to start changing her story and she would've caught herself in her own lies.

[@Bluesit32]

Yes, just leave out the part about the brain damage.

[@riahw3750]

Would that not put the father in danger? Plus they wanted her to confess not her word against his

[@tomorrow4eva]

Her parents did not deserve to be attacked but it’s a shame the only way they knew to parent was to alternate between spoiling their daughter and tearing her down. The son wasn’t as damaged because he was able to keep up with their expectations but she is clearly messed up.

[@ellarasei4404]

Their son was also a boy. The gender definitely plays here. I bet the story would be different if they had two girls

[@LoboFuerte-b6s]

Doesn’t sound like they spoiled her at all unless you count not physically abusing her which is unlikely if they are post-war southeast asian refugees

[@CatBuchanan]

Simon, the best way to help your kids succeed is to stress you don't expect them to be perfect but instead do the very best they can. My son is 16, in a Science Technology Engineering Maths school in the mornings which will allow him to graduate from High School with both an advanced diploma from high school *and* an Associate's Degree. His last grade lower than an A was in 4th grade and he's never earned less than a B on his report cards - including his college classes last year.

[@kaialexander6806]

So as someone who has been on the other side of the police lying to suspect things (by proxy - it was my brother they lied to), I will never be able to sat "yeah, police can lie during interrogations." And I'm not someone who lets my experiences be the biggest thing going into my opinions; especially things that were very emotional for me. But my problem with allowing it is that if the police lies to someone who was innocent, as my brother was considering the judge basically threw out the case as soon as it landed on his desk, it massively _erodes trust between the police and the community._ They didn't seem to have any evidence backing it up, just a hunch that was likely based on stereotypes, and then they just lied to him about what happened. Thankfully, my brother's the argumentative type and challenged them on every lie so they got nothing productive out of it. What they did get out of it was distrust in the police that spread like wildfire once my brother told his friends about it. And that distrust extended to me and still does to this day, _three years_ later. If I ever get interrogated, I won't answer a single question. I don't trust the police not to stereotype me the way they stereotyped my brother and subsequently lie to me to try and elicit a false confession out of me. And I'm definitely more susceptible to it than my brother. And even if I got asked to give a witness statement, I don't know if I'd do it. I honestly don't. I just can't trust the police even though I very much want to. It's an ethical quandary that's haunted me for three years now, and I know that other people are gonna be in the same boat as me. I think the only way I can ever support it is if they can only lie to you if they have more than just a hunch to go on. Just some form of evidence, no matter how circumstantial.

[@kooferkoo4969]

Simon: "I dont believe there are objective rights and wrongs" Also simon directly after: "Except for things that are obviously right or wrong."

[@MatthewMarcum]

That’s why we love our fact boi

[@soonmeekim930]

I had fainted in the last month or so in our hallway going to my room, after my daughter was asleep. All I remember next is waking up on the ground with my Apple Watch calling 911. I had a bad concussion and the watch had been a lifesaver

[@nghinghinghinghinghi]

as a vietnamese son of refugees this case breaks my heart everytime. first heard of this case from JCS and its nice to see simon covering this case

[@jannetteberends8730]

Why? Is it because you feel sorry for the parents? Or for the girl. Or because you recognise the culture that set the stage for what happened?

[@advena996]

​@@jannetteberends8730 it's a pretty heart breaking case.

[@melanierose2705]

JCS is a fantastic channel!

[@nghinghinghinghinghi]

@@jannetteberends8730 it's a combination of all 3 honestly. growing up i had a lot of pressure to do well in school and having loads of extracurriculars. thankfully my parents knew my limits and i was comfortable enough to admit my faults and shortcomings to them. it's depressing that tiger parenting is the way it is.

[@rocketterrier]

Every time Simon goes "Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer!" I imagine a little white terrier sounding a little alarm howl and running as fast as his little legs will go.

[@thebeese4763]

Petition for a new channel where Simon gets hammered and reads about unbelievable true stories

[@captainpanda5533]

The problem of 'if you cannot afford a lawyer' comes from what the state considers assets and income. I had lost my job last year, so my income was zero. Shortly after, I got into a situation where I needed a lawyer, and figured that I would be able to get a public defender, since my income was, you know, zero. The state said that, since I owned a house and a car, I could afford to hire a lawyer, and denied the application.

[@mckymcobvious3043]

I watched the JCS video abt her interrogation ... she was clearly immature for her age, but it still really surprised me that she would believe that insane Scifi heat sensing mass surveillance story.

[@MatthewMarcum]

I listened to every interview clip I could find while writing this episode and the satellite lie was just one of many, but it was also the most consequential. I couldn’t believe it either.

[@midnightgod123]

Well her parents controlled most of her early life. She had no real world sense

[@shawnkilpatrick4839]

It's nowhere clear in the interrogation video that she actually believed it. Simon is just hyping it up. Gotta take everything he says with a grain of salt. He never let's facts stand in the way of a dramatic plot point.

[@jordanchen23]

30:13 Yeah it's normal to want your children to succeed but there's more to it than just barking out a laundry list of unreasonable demands and then instrumenting shame, anger, and scolding on them when things aren't going as well as you'd hoped for. You're supposed to facilitate their mental and behavioral development by providing helpful support and emotional warmth.

[@jocelynlopez4180]

I am sure this is not a original idea but I think it would be interesting if Simon had 2 writers write the same story, one from the prosecution side and from the defense side. Then let us as the audience determine if we think the person is guilty or innocent without knowing the cases outcome. They could pick stories where the person was convicted, found innocent or some where someone was found guilty, then found innocent years later. Simon, like us could not be told the outcome till the end of the episode.

[@sagganutsnina]

YESSS

[@100th_monkey]

You seriously can tell Siri to call 911! In fact on an episode of The Behaviour Panel, Scott said "why wouldn't you just scream Siri call 911" and his iphone did as it was told and summoned cops, who knocked on his door live on air ten minutes later!!

[@hellokristi]

Jen? Jen, this audience needs a chronological compilation of the evolution of Simon's views on the death penalty from clips across his channel. My soul needs this.

[@elizabethmoore4676]

Pretty please?

[@betterknownasjen]

Haha, it's to fast! I think there is like two videos where he doubts about it back in the day it, and then he's all in. I'll take a look anyway :P

[@Minidorf2210]

I would also like a compilation of Simon (a.k.a. one of the world’s nicest men) getting triggered by some of the awful stories he covers.

[@hellokristi]

@@betterknownasjen you're a magical human being, and I love your work!!

[@lornaginetteharrison7168]

Obviously Jennifer shouldn’t have resorted to murder, but I have more sympathy for her than I do with the perpetrators in most Casual Criminalist episodes. She was emotionally abused and controlled for her entire life. If her parents loved her at all, it was very much conditional on her doing what they wanted and being extraordinarily successful in her academic, creative and career pursuits. Image was extremely important to her parents, and she had to be the perfect daughter to show the world just how far the family had come. Excellence must be achieved and maintained. If you weren’t gifted and didn’t attain the most impressive qualifications and job, you were worthless in her parents’ eyes. If only her boyfriend had been kind and supportive of her finding her own path, so she didn’t feel like being exiled by her family was the worst thing in the world, I’m positive that this murder plot would never have happened.

[@feonaarabellaparaiso1786]

Simon mentions this in the episode, but the boyfriend actually said that she should accept the disowning, and run away with him and they’ll turn their lives around together. It was only with Jennifer’s insistence that he gave her a number to contact a hit man. I still have sympathy for Jennifer. After all, she lived with her boyfriend for 6+ years and knows him better than most people. How feasible was his proposition, considering his current line of work? I mean… he’s a drug dealer that never expressed changing his career path until it meant losing her. But she definitely still had another choice. Most people when they feel the only options they have are terrible, will choose the option that involves less violence done onto others.

[@cafezo87934]

She had TWO jobs (some people can't even find one) so she could have just left. Go to work and never go home. Don't know why she stayed. Weirdo.

[@casualgamers3369]

I watched the interrogation video. She said she said with her parents because she "wanted to take care of them" after her father gave her an ultimatum of go back to school or move out of the house. This is my own speculation but I feel like her plan was once her parents were dead she would collect her inheritance and move in with her boyfriend. Pretending to stay with her parents out of "love" was just a means to carry out the plan. I'm not fully denying her parents might have had unrealistically high expectations of her, but I'm skeptical of any "abuse" that was claimed. It's really difficult to judge what goes on in someone's home on the outside and we can only speculate based on what we hear. Both of her parents were killed and the only people who know are Jennifer herself and her brother. You have to remember that Jennifer did lie throughout the investigation so you have to take her claims with a grain of salt. Edit: sorry I forgot her father technically survived, but my point still stands.

[@positivevibesveda]

@@casualgamers3369Simon says this later in the episode but yes, her plan was to move away with her boyfriend once the parents were dead & she got the inheritance. i believe that she felt pressured to be someone she wasn’t or pursue a life that her parents wanted but she definitely had many options and opportunities to leave.

[@starrywizdom]

The way you talk about your conversations with your daughter reminds me so much of my da & me when I was 3. I bet you're a great dad!

[@camdenharper7244]

In the US, the answer to "should I get a lawyer?" is always yes

[@Ruadhan1334]

21:54 - Simon's kid: "Hi dad! I'm done sleeping!" Simon: "Why? I'm not?" 😂 We come for the true crime stories. We stay for the odd little asides like this. 😊

[@v3ru586]

By the time my younger brother would do this, my parents had a good (or not so good) response. "you have 3 siblings, go play with one of them"

[@NerdyStarProductions]

having already known about this story before watching the show, nothing was more satisfying than seeing Simon instantly question the attckers' motivations.

[@samsarastarkey]

The debate over whether police should be allowed to lie boils down to a simple game of would you rather. Imagine you are the judge deciding the fate of the accused. Would you feel worse sending an innocent person to life in prison or not catching a criminal for 1 particular crime? Personally I'd rather not risk sending the innocent person to prison and take the chance the criminal will break the law again and there will be another chance to convict.

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

I live for these over an hour stories simon!😊😊😊😊😊❤❤❤❤

[@--enyo--]

💯

[@xtina_simonne]

Me too!!❤

[@jrascal85]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of police lie tactics, I am firmly against the act. I worked alongside the police for years, consumed a lot of true crime content, have seen nearly all of law and order up to 2018, and I am fully aware of the ability to outright lie to suspects. That being said, the officers were so confident and persistent in their lies that I nearly believed them myself. Had I not been over 60 miles from the scene of the alleged crime (which later was determined to be a false report), I could have been arrested on the grounds that I both knew the alleged victim and drove a vaguely similar car to the reported getaway vehicle. If you know you are guilty, get a lawyer. If you know you are innocent, get a lawyer. If you are unsure, get a lawyer. No one should be subjected to a 6 hour interrogation on such flimsy evidence, and a lawyer would have never allowed for that to happen to me. Lesson learned.

[@Scout-Fanfiction]

An enthralling episode! Ever since the first episode two years ago, it's been a treat to watch the channel grow and thrive. Each new writer brings something new, and adds their own flavor to each episode. Shoutout to everyone who works hard on each episode ❤.

[@sarahfelix4922]

I was a teenager who was"helped" by the police quite a few times, not ALOT, but enough, and not until watching interrogations on youtube the past few years, did I know they are not there to HELP YOU AT ALL. QUITE THE OPPOSITE! Yes, I was a dumb criminal, but it was just a phase, I grew up and hadn't ever got so much as a speeding ticket since then and I'm 43... So yes, I agree with dumb criminals blabbing on themselves.... because then they don't get away with it... hopefully learn from it and don't do it again. Great episode guys! Love from colorado

[@dlo111]

I love Simone's "What are up to?" when he tries to understand why people make irrational decisions.

[@fikanera838]

Such a fascinating episode! I like these more complex crimes, rather than serial killers who just plough through the community. And great advice from Liam at the end! Thankyou Matthew for including that. 🙏🏽

[@MatthewMarcum]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ignitionfrn2223]

2:00 - Mid roll ads 3:55 - Back to the video 5:05 - Chapter 1 - The canadian dream 10:45 - Chapter 2 - The canadian nightmare 19:20 - Chapter 3 - Too many unknowns 27:50 - Chapter 4 - Setting the record straight 40:15 - Chapter 5 - A surprise witness 50:20 - Chapter 6 - Wrapping up the case 54:05 - Chapter 7 - Question time 1:00:35 - Chapter 8 - Surprise cameo time ! PS: As i watched *Quiz Show* the movie based on the game-show rigging scandal in the 50's, why not doing corruption-oriented episodes as "lighter one" after the depressing ones ?

[@BergyTheGhost]

This comment should be pinned. I appreciate the work to time stamp the chapters 💯

[@avalon2342]

The “3/10” on the abuse scale quote rubbed me the wrong way and I realized it’s because I see Jennifer’s family relationship was not unlike, say, someone staying with an abusive partner. When you look at her situation in that context, she may have been so fearful of her family’s exile that her trying to live life on her own was a more complex decision than one may initially think. The average person may see that and go “lol just leave your parents you’re an adult,” but it’s very possible that Jennifer may have felt like she wouldn’t even make it on her own. When one is pressured to do nothing but the best, even the average seems hopeless. Mind you I don’t think she’s a good person because murder isn’t the solution (duh), but if she had different people in her life, things may have ended differently.

[@finnthedragon296]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like that. Just because the abuse isn't physical, or isn't as extreme as possible doesn't mean it didn't cause some serious damage to the victim. She is by no means exempt from being punished for her crimes for it, but I think calling it a "3/10 on the abuse scale" is honestly a bit gross. Mental and emotional abuse is constantly looked over and treated like it isn't real abuse, and even though this seems unintentional in this case the "abuse scale rating" feeds into that.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

There is also a lack of understanding of family dynamics in Asian households and how children are generally conditioned to view their family.

[@vibechecked7522]

Yeah, so for me, I kept this video playing without checking the title, so I had no idea that it was her. I figured out it was her though, when she said she got her phone from her pocket, but the robbers had searched her pockets for cash. They no doubt would have taken the phone. Then I realized it was probably so much pressure on her and that she may have felt the need to escape.

[@stevethebarbarian9876]

Also putting a numbered scale on abuse is so utterly fucked it’s unbelievable. Rare (but extremely large) Simon L here for sure.

[@miss_c_83]

She lied and stole their money for SIX YEARS. She's lucky her parents were so forgiving as to give her a second chance at all. They would have been completely justified if they decided to never give her another cent. They didn't have to allow her to keep living with them and financially supporting her after she just stole and lied for years. She is a selfish, manipulative, horrible person. Fuck her.

[@junestewart5098]

Love a wee conundrum, thanks Matthew, and cameo from Liam enjoyed Simons video immensely, not forgetting ever Jen for her epigrammic editing 😊

[@michaelrichter9427]

Confessions should *never* be enough to convict, whether obtained through deceit or straight-up. Convictions should *always* require verifiable physical evidence. So lie to collect physical evidence, fine, but without physical evidence no conviction, confessed or otherwise.

[@NekoAkuma666]

I just don’t understand how she got away with “fake diplomas” you telling me those parents didn’t want to go to graduations? If they were so strung up with seeing their kids so high on a pedestal wouldn’t they have wanted to see a graduation and had pictures???

[@MatthewMarcum]

So, I can answer this because I cut a portion of the script that addresses this question: Jennifer told her parents that her college had only given her one graduation “attendance pass” and she didn’t want to pick between her mother and father because she didn’t want either of them to feel left out. She told them she gave her only pass to a friend instead. Just another lie.

[@katethedumb8925]

@@MatthewMarcum Thanks for answering this, I was wondering as well! Keep up the great work, you're a brilliant writer!

[@JK-gm6kk]

What a guy, answering a question here in the comments

[@SakuraShirakawa]

@@MatthewMarcum That doesn't clear up the question at all really, the comment said Diploma(s) Plural. Meaning not just the University. Remember, she forged the High School one as well. Parents like this revel in the successes of their children, including attending HS graduations and celebrating them.

[@JK-gm6kk]

@SakuraShirakawa they didn't have to answer the question at all. Not even close to the first case where this has happened, either. This clears up one of the graduations, at least. The other might not even be known to the public, how she managed to fool them

[@HavianEla]

Been awhile since I recommended this, but a fantastic idea for a case to cover is the unsolved case of Johnny Gosch. SO much conspiracy came out of it, and I’d be curious to your thoughts on how the mom handled the situation.

[@tesiacleverley7048]

I never used to think that police lying to supects to coerce a confession and find new evidence was bad until I watched the Netflix special "Victim/suspect". In the documentary, police lie to victims of SA to get them to withdraw their reports. The police then take it a step further and charge the victims of filing a false report. Police don't always know who the victim is and who the suspect is. Lying to a suspect seems fine, but lying to a victim is problematic and we dont always know who is who until the end. Also, I love the show and find it highly entertaining to watch Simon wrestle with these tough questuons.

[@SamAspden]

Simon IMMEDIATELY lying about not having a drink when recording. During my Cash Crim binge last month i remember him having a glass of wine during a particularly bad one recently. (Also if you're taking suggestions, The murder of Mickey Thompson, American racing driver.)

[@JK-gm6kk]

No one could blame him for putting some wine away, covering someone like Gacy

[@SamAspden]

@@JK-gm6kk is that the one? Jesus yeah that will be one that I will never watch again. It's too harrowing and heartbreaking. Ceaseless death of vulnerable kids. (Moore's Murders, Jeff Dahmer, Rose and Fred West are on that list too.)

[@brigidtheirish]

He might not remember. Or it was recorded after this one.

[@volvo145]

I think I watched it about four times. I’m laughing like crazy when there’s sloppy person of Young Wingate is described stroking himself and fold and stretch marks, etc. so gross.

[@irhono]

Immediately jumped to the comments to say I clearly remember him having a glass of wine during one episode. I couldn't remember if it was a particularly rough episode or just a long one that he returned to after a dinner break

[@1003JustinLaw]

My parents (I'm also Asian), upon hearing of this story way back when this first broke the news, simply commented: the father failed in allowing his daughter to hate him, a proper parent would simply control their kid. And unfortunately, that's just the situation for most Asian families (especially Asian immigrant families), the parents keep the children fearful via ample application of constant and random physical punishment (read: violence); eventually the kid will start to develop Stockholm Syndrome, as in they react to the lack of physical punishment with gratefulness, and would bend over backwards to please their parents. This is exactly how my upbringing was like, my parents used spanking for literally everything, and not just for punishments, they'd beat me for absolutely no reason at all and the ONLY way to ensure that I didn't get a beating is if I did as they told me, and as such my mind justified me doing whatever it is they order me to do without question simply to avoid the lash. Basically, instead of "punishment for bad behavior and reward for good behavior", it is "punishment for all behavior except good behavior", and for the first 24 years of my life this is how I lived, my parents were gods, and I am their slave, their will is the ultimate truth and the reason for my existence. Now that I'm in my 30's, I see the major flaws in this philosophy, but having grown up this way I often cannot help but let this train of logic seep into my day-to-day actions. The worst instance of this was the time I got in trouble with HR after I used a similar tactic to train the interns under my care. I shouted at and verbally abused the kids to the verge of tears on a daily basis, and would only spare them my spittle when they did EXACTLY as I told them. It wasn't until HR forced me to take a course that I realized just how similar my actions were to that of my parents.

[@brandonlicking2087]

Is it weird that I feel more included when I listen to you in my vessi’s? Thanks a lot Simon I have only vessi’s now. You weren’t wrong.

[@QBCPerdition]

The problem with the lawyers who are provided are often overworked and sometimes do not even talk to the person they are defending, let alone able to be in a room when the people are being interviewed.

[@TheNewRidore]

Seeing a video about the 2019 Northern BC Murders would be worth a listen. The whole case was super intense and received soooo much media coverage before it quickly became forgotten.

[@M-_-O]

I really enjoyed how giddy Simon got when he started to read Liam’s cameo. He looked like a happy child

[@explosivtarknas1996]

In defense of not crying at her mother's funeral, I didn't cry at my grandfather's funeral and he was the father figure I had throughout our time together after my father walked out on me. I did cry (I'm not a total psychopath), but not at the funeral. It wasn't a pride thing, I just consider my sorrow and my tears to belong to me and not everyone else and I cried when I was alone and ready to work through the emotions. Also, I don't think I would have referred to the invaders as "gentlemen", but I'm pretty formal and exact in my responses to authority as well and my stepfather used to beat me when I had to think about events that had happened and he decided I had taken too long and was therefore lying, so give a little slack on her post-incident behavior, I would probably end up behaving pretty similarly. However, this is the Casual Criminalist, so she's probably guilty.

[@Breadfish290]

When my mom died, I didn’t cry at the funeral, I was just so angry that I couldn’t cry. Like I had to be pined down by my uncle and ex best friend to keep me from jumping up and yelling at the pastor or worse (I would not be surprised if I would’ve assaulted the pastor if I was allowed to get up). I’m shocked people even came up to me because I already look angry like someone punched a kitten in front of me when I’m having a lovely day, but when I’m angry I look downright scary. I don’t think not crying at a funeral is weird, it’s the showing no emotion that is.

[@chiisanaxxai]

My grandmother, who had been one of my primary caregivers since birth and who had lived with us for the last few years of her life, died the night before I started my freshman year of high school. I just went to bed, woke up and went to school as normal, and didn’t shed a single tear over her until we got an assignment the following academic year about making an altar for a loved one. I actually only cried when I gave my presentation to the class, and as 10th grader, and that was mortifying despite literally everyone in class being close friends of mine which meant it was probably the safest place to cry in front of other kids while in high school. I was upset that she passed away when it happened, it was weird to suddenly not have my grandma there when she’d been there my whole life, but I was just so busy with the rest of my teenage life that I didn’t give myself time to process and experience that grief. I dissociated for more than a year. Eventually, that grief made me feel it and work through it. We had a complicated relationship (super strict Asian grandmother who was also demented for longer than I’d been alive), but I love her dearly and the older I get, the more I feel for her and the more profoundly I feel a sense of loss around her death. But I’m also at peace with it! All of that is to say, not crying at a funeral or following the death of a loved one doesn’t automatically set off red flags for me. Everyone processes grief differently.

[@TheProphetOfNoGod]

What I don't understand is why they even had to lie to her. They could have just told her the truth, that they knew she lied bc her father woke up.

[@Reignski]

They wanted a confession and didn’t want her to shut down or lawyer up. So they know when to pressure and when to not.

[@trishapellis]

I had already seen a video on this one, on a channel that focuses on analyzing the interrogations. I don't remember hearing the part of the 6 years pretending to be in college though... nor the isolation. I truly understand the betrayal of finding out your child has been lying to you that thoroughly for that long, but literally locking her up in what is almost an isolation chamber is going to be terrible for her mental health no matter how you twist it.

[@PeachM0de]

Wow he actually remembered Jen this time around. Thank you Matt and Jen for putting this together.

[@HamSandwich206]

Thoroughly enjoyed this episode and Liam's explanation at the end. As a lawyer here in Aus, I whole-heartedly agree with his analysis of the issue, and his answer to the question.

[@JV-fh1fg]

Biggest problem with public defenders in US is that they are underpaid, on any law office the starting salary is over 6 times higher. Public defenders salary is so low in some states that many newly graduated students are unable to work as public defenders as the salary is too low to pay back the student loans. They are also "criminally" over worked, a single public defender can have up to different 20 cases every single day, they just do not have the time to fully dedicate themselves to the cases they are handling. Because of this the turn over rate of public defenders is also very high, when your public defender leaves your case is given to another public defender, who now would need to find the time to go over everything the previous defender did as well.

[@mondaygrl811]

I learned about Vessi shoes from your ads, and now my husband and I both love them!

[@Dabuhl40]

This started playing without me having KZbin open 36 seconds after it was posted. My phone knows what I like 😂

[@TroysSweetCornhole]

That's the algorithm for ya

[@HomesteadDreaming]

Ohhh yay i love these long format ones!!! I always watch them on here first and then when i run out of your videos i listen again on spotify 😂 makes my daily chores bareable (i hate housework)

[@hathhath2444]

It's sad parents didn't find the balance when it comes to support, encouragement and consistency. There are things I wish my parents had insisted I did because I was too young and stupid to think about the future. But I am lucky to have been allowed to follow my dreams. I can't imagine feeling like I can never be enough to the people that meant to love me the most. I can see how she became bitter. No one mentioned this, but from what I often hear is that females of this race are generally treated much harsher and strictly than their brother's. She was a smart young lady, wondering if she had some issues parents didn't want to address because it would have taken away from their perfect family.

[@vexvoltage6456]

Simon needs another channel where he just drinks and goes on tangents.

[@MatthewMarcum]

So long as the writers can drink as well. Fair is fair!

[@Itsthatoneguy371]

A lot of us have been saying that for a while.

[@toxicginger9936]

@@MatthewMarcum You don’t already? Lol😊

[@MatthewMarcum]

@@toxicginger9936 not officially. But what is written before sober editing stays before editing.

[@Vee_of_the_Weald]

@@MatthewMarcum😂

[@luckyspurs]

For some reason the JCS episode on this case stuck with me more than any other one. Had a similar feel to Nina's story in Black Swan.

[@lebby1688]

I need to poke a hole is your assumption that they are entitled to a public defender. That only comes into play once they are arrested. When they are just interrogating beforehand you don't have a right to free legal defense. You have to pay for counsel out of your own pocket. That's where people get sucked into false confessions. They are lied to about all this evidence against them and told if they go to trial they will certainly be sentenced for a very long time. Or they can just take this plea deal and get off with a lighter sentence. The whole thing happens so fast that they aren't given much opportunity to request a public defender. They sometimes go from interrogation to plea deal in one sitting.

[@PokeSalad]

Simon THANK YOU for doing a better Vessi advertisement, i was so confused when i got them the first time because they take time to break in, and obviously they are waterproof... up to the ankle.

[@Meownwell]

I've seen this case covered multiple times, looking forward to Matthew's take on the gruesome event. Also, while I am not trying to excuse Jennifer's actions, I can wholly identify with her sentiment as I was raised by tiger parents that imparted the unrelenting standards schema in addition to other ones/healthy dose of trauma. The level of pressure can be suffocating and she wanted a way out.

[@Kari.F.]

She was an adult, though. She could have moved away. That's the part of this that I don't understand. Inheritance maybe?

[@HarverTheSlayer]

@@Kari.F. I can understand that part: she simply didn't know any other life. She couldn't see herself living somewhere else, that idea probably didn't even cross her mind. I know because I was in a very rough spot meany years ago and thought of things no sane person should think... And simply didn't think of moving away even once, as stupid as it sounds. I wouldn't be surprised if she lived a fairly sheltered life.

[@claytondennis8034]

This actual interrogation was hard to watch (on another channel). I detest this woman.

[@nicolasimpsonkhullar986]

I’m a bit of a tiger mom myself, but I have no sympathy for her. The level of deceit was psychopathic, even before that terrible night. The interview speaks volumes. This girl had no remorse.

[@--enyo--]

@@Kari.F.The cultural context might have something to do with that.

[@gabby3036]

46:17 At this point in the video, I think it's safe to assume she was never in danger of becoming a doctor.

[@josephschultz3301]

No worries, Simon, I've smashed that 5-Star button too. It's the combination of your writers' dedicated research and non-standard storytelling, Jen's crazy editing, your personality as our presenter/narrator, and your penchant for getting side-tracked with completely random tangents that makes this podcast a joy to watch. Even when the subject matter is exceptionally grim, you and your team manage to make it work swimmingly. Kudos, my friend.

[@brianlaverdure904]

The casual criminalist is a great series, and I enjoy nearly all of them. But I had to comment on how great the format of this was and how much I enjoy the writing of this episode. Thank you

[@mielygold423]

The Casual Criminalist is pretty much the only true crime channel I watch 😂 I’ve watched so many videos that it feels weird going to another true crime channel

[@AncientIrishCelt]

I enjoy listening to Simon. He's like a friend I drop into his house for an informative chat over a cup of tea/pint

[@SamuelBrown92]

I get a good chuckle when Simon asks "What're you up to?" 😂

[@r.kai.v11]

Nervous for this episode; thank you Simon, Matthew, and Jen for this story!

[@SoulfulMafia]

JCS still has her interrogation analysis uploaded. I watched it several different times but this ADDS to the story to make it way more interesting. Thank you for that.

[@farfromperfek]

Did Mathew write this? It wasn't made clear. 😂 Wait, I vaguely remember you having a glass of wine near the end of one video.

[@MatthewMarcum]

I did! Also, I feel like I remember him drinking wine while recording another video as well. Must have slipped his mind… too much wine.

[@dark_baphomet]

Possibly my favourite episode yet tbh, combo of the typical cascrip and the 5 cases which are true thing, please do more!

[@sabrinawhiting5167]

I was in prison with this chick, she still says she didn’t do it and had no clue what was going on lol

[@kellypettet5781]

I got my vessi shoes!!!!! Love them, and yes, they are waterproof and so wonderful!!!!! P.S.SHOW WAS GREAT TODAY!!!! ( NEVER DISAPPOINTED WITH YOUR SHOW!!!!)

[@astreaward6651]

If you feel like scoffing at the story the detective told Jennifer, I challenge you to make an entire episode of "The Casual Criminalist" about police interrogation techniques and how they relate to false confessions. Once they get someone in that room, all bets are off and their singular goal is to GTC, "Get The Confession." They don't really care if the confession is false or not. Seriously. Please do an entire episode on false confessions. You'll hesitate to get up on that high horse after looking into it.

[@kitalalaris]

That would be the longest video of all time right there, if my casual research into this is anything to go by.

[@Bluesit32]

How does that relate to the absurd idea of infrared spy satellites that view ONLY Canadian homes and how the government that would just LOVE to keep such a concept under wraps, told a common police force about it so they could inform an accused civilian about it? The scoffing comes from the fact the cop couldn't come up with anything better than that as a lie.

[@astreaward6651]

@@Bluesit32 I guess that's one way to look at it. I'm going to guess you've never been on the receiving end of the wide range of BS cops are allowed to get away with when they think they have their suspect. In the Pan case, he happened to be right. In my case, when I was 14 and my cousin was 11, they were wrong. We were minding our own damned business and were loaded into the cop car and driven away from my cousin's house without any word to our parents. They just decided that we were definitely the shoplifters they were after. I hadn't even been in the state when the crime took place, and even after proving that, the department refused to apologize and definitely didn't appreciate having to let us go. I'm not inclined to view anything the cops do through a humorous lens. Good for you that you can blow it off like it's nothing.

[@JuMiKu]

Another horrifying topic: Deals. So many innocent people, bullied into signing a deal, because the state doesn't want to pay for a trial.

[@astreaward6651]

@@JuMiKu Oh, yeah. That can be truly disturbing, especially when dealing with Alford pleas.

[@brandonparisien2381]

In Canada, if you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you....unless you make more than 20K a year, then you're on your own. Also the police can keep interrogating you alone after you ask for a lawyer. And, unless you already have one, you don't get your lawyer until after you've been interrogated.

[@alechachman9599]

The writer and Simon should know, Unlike here in the U.S, in Canada there is no right to have a lawyer present during an interrogation. Simply put, the reason, Jennifer didn't have a lawyer present is that's not allowed in Canada

[@MatthewMarcum]

I was not aware of this. That adds a whole now layer of complexity to the question in regards to Canada. It almost certainly changes my opinion as well. Canadian’s should definitely have the right to a lawyer during interrogations, and It blows my mind that they don’t.

[@jjanon2371]

Whoa, I didn't know this either until now. I couldn't believe it until I looked it up; it just seems so unfair for innocent people who end up in interrogations. Thanks for adding this fact to the comments.

[@fgsagnxbhnsggv]

@@MatthewMarcum Youth have access to a lawyer; Adult's get a pre "interview" consult with a lawyer, and are then on there own.

[@Phantom_Fireside]

Did not know that.. thanks for sharing

[@Thewhtrbt]

That's some grade A bullshit considering the amount of interrogations we've seen on this channel (from the U.S.) without lawyers present. Get off your high horse.

[@moondancer4660]

I like the compilations also! I like being able to listen for a long time without having to get up and change videos etc etc❤

[@leannenorman2194]

A great example of false confessions with little to no evidence is the West Memphis 3 I would love to see you cover that case.

[@user-dg9pu4pe9d]

The Central Park 5 too

[@jeremybriggs1707]

Paternelist is sadly lacking all over. Protecting people from harm? Yet you report a stalker and have evidence of being stalked police and lawyers say they cannot help, then blame the victims when the stalker does more than just follow them

[@iswordlogici7760]

Like 9 minutes in the story had me smiling and feeling good. Then i remembered its a true crime video...

[@zyvernious]

I don't remember a lot of "first" things, but I'm glad that I remember my first Casual Criminalist I watched, which is this one!

[@alphatrope]

Excellent episode. Smart in the exploration of ideas, morality and ethics. The writer and narrator created alchemy with the material. A testimony to Simon’s ability to appreciate his writers.

[@missrhib]

My two cents: I 100% believe cops, detectives, and investigators should be allowed to lie to suspects. First, suspects lie all the time. The facts will shine through the lies in the end. You CANNOT convict based on only confessions. That said, using lies to pressure a confession is different than simply stating a lie to level the playing field. E.g. "your partner turned on you and admitted what s/he did..." If I'm innocent, I am going to continue to deny my part. If I'm guilty, I may want to offer to give MORE information to a lower sentence. Not sure if all this makes sense, but we have enough laws to protect the guilty and already have the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt just to convict the guilty. THAT SAID, I hate it when not guilty folks are convicted based upon shotty police work and faulty evidence.

[@kcbarbo78]

Yes, a confession should ALWAYS be corroborated by other evidence.

[@kaitlynhiggins3993]

The one problem with Liam's argument (TL;DR'd by Simon as "punishing people who don't lawyer up") is that, at least in America, the PERCEPTION of your guilt is 10000x stronger than any actual ruling from a judge. The trope/cliche/general 'common knowledge' is that if you lawyer up you are guilty; so if any person sees or hears about you being taken into the police station in relation to a crime (for any reason) and then there is a rumor that you asked a lawyer to come and advise you at any point in the proceedings (in or out of the station), then the Court of Public Perception will declare you Guilty immediately. Doesn't matter if the cops never call you again for the rest of your life, you are guilty and will be treated as such by your neighbors. This perception is so strong that a person can be declared Guilty by the CoPP for going to see a lawyer without any other evidence of foul play or police involvement. Lawyers are seen as pariahs and you are always guilty by association if you seek one out. At least you are in the Gossip mill since the whole thing falls apart when you think about it for a few minutes, but again, it's the FIRST impression that is the important one. Then there is also the very real problem that 90% of the police will go for the easy suspect, even if it is fairly obvious they aren't the actual perpetrator. This is how a pizza guy can get called to deliver pizzas to a house that turns out to be a drug safe house and then immediately get picked up by the police and charged as their drug mule/contact with absolutely no evidence, and the only reason he didn't have to wait in jail for a judge to throw it out (9mo-1yr+ down the line) was because he did the smart thing and called a lawyer (on the advice of his boss, who was also not involved with the drug stuff). Now, if I understand it correctly, the police are paid on a quota system. That's why at the end of the month there are more cops giving more tickets for minor (or imaginary) traffic violations. If they are also paid like this for closing open cases, then it only makes sense that they will railroad the first person who kinda fits the narrative, because it is the only/best way to get paid to pay their own bills. Which is why no one trusts police in America. Ostensibly, they are here to 'Protect and Serve' the innocent people of their community, but lately that has changed to 'protect and serve ourselves'. Hence why police now wear body armor at all times on patrol in my tiny town who's biggest problem is people coming over from ANOTHER tiny town to try and sell drugs to the teenagers getting drunk and going for a joy ride on their grandpa's tractor. It is Us (police) vs Them (normal folks), and They are all guilty, armed, and dangerous until proven -- without the shadow of a doubt -- to not be. So, no, I don't think the police should be allowed to lie to a suspect. But, I'll take elements from Liam's explanation of British law and Simon's opinion, to say that yes, they can lie to a suspect, BUT if the confession does not produce any viable evidence (which it did in Pan's case) then it is thrown out IMMEDIATELY. No needing to ask the judge or tell the lawyers, it is simply inadmissible as what was probably a false confession that was definitely made under duress. And if that's all you have, I'm so sorry, but no, you have to let them go. As Simon is fond of reminding us "it is better for 100 guilty men to go free than for 1 innocent man to be wrongly convicted", and that is why the courts are SUPPOSE to be set up with the assumption that you are innocent until proven guilty, instead of the backwards nonsense that it is today that gives the appearance of protecting the actually guilty while vilifying and criminalizing the victims. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[@learningthebagpipe5234]

In the United states, as a person who has had to deal with the wrong side of the law, the lawyers that are provided for you are often over worked and will push you to take a plea so they can get on to their next case. They also dont typically have time to allow you to be a part of your. defense.

[@hammerjim19741]

I gotta say lawyer up for anything after her initial statement.. if they want you to come back down, lawyer up even if you are completely innocent..

[@Lali_pop_music]

I've heard this story covered multiple times and while I can't remember examples I always remember the parents having been extremely controlling of the daughter and that coupled with her detached sense of reality is what led to her committing this awful crime. I'm only 20 mins into this episode so it's possible it'll come up later. Just as it's being told so far this betrayal really comes out of nowhere.

[@SEAZNDragon]

I'm an Asian American cop in a large city and I've seen people commit violence for the pettiest reasons. That said killing your own family is still a tall order. I remember a couple of years ago responding to a domestic call between a Filipina mother and her 20 something adult son living in the same apartment. Apparently the son was causing some sort of disturbance but no one was hurt. He had done this before but she managed to call a relative then to diffuse things. From what the mom said the son was having some school frustrations and I figured I could connect with the son as I lived with my parents post college not too long ago and had some issues with them over life direction and personal space. Well the son wasn't in any mood for a heart to heart but did admit he felt his mom was overbearing. I told him if that's the case he needed to get his act together and move out. Sounds a bit harsh but I knew while I lived under my parents' roof I was under their rules which were very few and I wouldn't dream of doing anything physical. I hadn't seen another call at the apartment and I hoped the son was able to get things together.

[@tsukimendo4324]

There are so many stories of parents being extremely overbearing to their children. I have a girlfriend who's gay in a family/society where homosexuality is forbidden, the only path she gets shown by her parents is finish university and be married off to some unknown man. She can't go anywhere on her own, she's not allowed to entertain any hobbies. Suffice to say that the university courses are not going smooth and she can only think of suicide as the only way out of this life. I listen to this story with a lot less judgement

[@kitalalaris]

@@SEAZNDragon In this situation it sounds like her father didn't even let her try to get her life together. She handled it entirely wrong, that's for sure. Not sure what part of America you're in, and I don't know the laws in Canada for this, but in the US whether they are your parents or someone else, if someone does this to an adult it's usually considered false imprisonment and often carries a kidnapping charge on top of that. Seeing as she had her cell phone on her the correct course of action would have been to call law enforcement and report the situation. Kind of harsh, kind of messy, and probably a thing that would get her egregiously insensitive and unreasonably overbearing parents absolutely frothing mad, but much better than murder.

[@jannetteberends8730]

As I remember well the mother was even worse than the father. I didn’t get the feeling there was much love in that family. The fact that the father didn’t want any contact with here is telling. There are other cases where one parent survived, and they keep supporting their kid. Imo this was clearly a “they saw it coming” case.

[@SEAZNDragon]

@@kitalalaris I looked up the law in my state (Texas) and Canada and for false imprisonment there has to be a lack of consent. Here Jennifer agreed to the dad’s terms so I don’t think the criminal courts can step in for her.

[@CCeASMR]

I vote that Simon does a weird story or a fun crazy heist story and has to drink every time someone breaks one of the rules of doing crimes

[@earthtomaggie6620]

Hey Simon + Matthew (and of course the other writers), would you ever do an episode on the case of Xavier DuPont de Ligonnès? I saw something about the case on Netflix but read afterwards that it’s not really the complete story, so I’d love to see your take on it!

[@katg4288]

I've just come from a small beard episode, boy how it has grown! "Great" to see Simon do this story