The Phaistos Disc Flips Greek History

[@warrklownn1]

This was mind blowing sir. Thank you for your research and willingness to share.

[@MrKneeV]

That "ach" root for water survived in the Germanic tongues, and is the root of the English word "island". The "s" is a later addition to the word, and the "i" was followed by a glottal stop or fricative. It was something like "ich-land" or "ig-land" before we softened it to "i-land".

[@Agras14]

I do mention this as well in my comment below, en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/awj%C5%8D. This root seems to have most probably been a Steppe IE element, rather than an Anatolian IE one. At least from what i currently know.

[@carolgebert7833]

I would like to suggest that the double-headed axe is a representation of the constellation Crux. The Egyptians draw an Ankh through the star points, and I think the Minoans drew a double-headed axe. In ancient times, the Crux was perfectly vertical just before dawn on the Winter solstice. In summer, it goes below the horizon.

[@SisterWomen]

I watched this five times. You'll definitely go down in history for these and other brilliant discoveries. However I came looking specifically for the relationship between King Menes first pharoah and King Minos os Crete. Specifically the identity of the woman who became NeithHotep asportrayed on Narmer Pallette. The Pylos Combat Agate shows several elements of Pallette story, indeed too many for this to be a coincidence. If you know please contact me. The woman who became NeithHotep had apparently been taken due to a reputation of incredible beauty, a woman I suspect we will find recorded elsewhere. I thought it was Sarah but if Minos is Menesis Menelaus, NeithHotep is Helen. Yet the dating is way off. Is there another Helen fifteen centuries earlier? The captive of a minoan King who unified Egypt? I'll be wading into all you work soon. Thanks again. God bless.

[@wkrapek]

I never heard of this. But it's possible that since they were starting a new leg of the old civilization they were consciously emulating the First Kingdom.

[@Agras14]

@@wkrapek Along the lines of what i mentioned above in my response to you on Hurro-Urartian-Minoan relations, there was also the fifth King of Urartu, namely "Menua" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menua ) which seems to be a cognate to Cretan "Μίνως" (Minōs) ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos ). On the other side of the spectrum, namely Minoan-Egyptian relations, up until late in the 20th century, there was no archaeological proof of contact between Avaris (capital of Egypt under the Hyksos) and the Minoans. Then, in 1992 perfectly preserved Minoan paintings were discovered at Avaris. Here are two articles that go into some more detail, users.uoi.gr/gramisar/prosopiko/vlaxopoulos/Tell%20el%20Daba_Bietak.pdf and www.academia.edu/10076321/_The_Impact_of_Minoan_Art_on_Egypt_and_the_Levant_A_Glimpse_on_Palatial_Art_from_the_Naval_Base_of_Peru-nefer_at_Avaris_in_J._Aruz_et_al._eds._Cultures_in_Contact_From_Mesopotamia_to_the_Mediterranean_in_the_Second_Millennium_B.C._The_MMS_Symposia._New_York_2013_MMA_188-199. The first had the following to say, "The use of specifically Minoan royal motifs in a palace in the Nile Delta is a clear indication that an encounter on the highest order must have taken place between the courts of Knossos and Egypt.". Also, have a look at a world map presenting the situation at around 2000 BCE, and the evolution of each region, upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/World_in_2000_BC.svg/4500px-World_in_2000_BC.svg.png. Minoans were on par with the Egyptians as State societies. Mathematically they weren't noobs either since they had evolved to fractals/decimal numbers, which were unheard of in Egypt or anywhere else at the time for that matter. And this shouldn't come as a surprise since they were the first thalassocracy in history, an achievement that required superb knowledge of mathematics and celestial navigation. Last, on Greek "Μενέλᾱος" (Menélāos), its etymology is the following, "μένος" (ménos) meaning "vigor, power" and "λᾱός" (lāós) meaning "people", therefore "power of the people". There are a number of other similar Greek name examples you can see here, en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek. After all, its PIE root might be related to the aforementioned Urartian and Egyptian roots as well.

[@carolgebert7833]

I wonder if you have followed "The Luwian Hypothesis" of the Bronze Age Collapse? The proponents say that when the Hittites seized Cyprus, a Greek colony, this united the Greeks and the Luwians against them. The fragment from Ugarit says clearly that all the ships are "in the land of Lukka." I.e. the Hittites and the Luwians were at war. DNA linkage of Philistines with the Greeks adds weight to this hypothesis. Of course, distant allies from the Italian colonies could have been part of the alliance. Bronze was that important.

[@ellanguage9305]

Great information shared. Of course we should consider the slaves- people who were not from Crete but taken there to be sacrificed and fight the minotaur or be part of the bull fight. Although we know the Athenians would provide some, it is possible that other slaves came from places of different language. I would then presume the slaves had to learn this writing system and make mistakes or incorporate new symbols, as there is a debate for some signs in the disk. There is a theory

[@wkrapek]

Yeah I hope that's not true but it probably is. Even the Romans had human sacrifice. They didn't do it often, but they did do it.

[@gerokollmer733]

I wouldn‘t bother until it is scientificaly proven that the disc is substantially older than the date of its discovery.

[@whoopjohn]

It's such a shame that the Phaistos Disc is a fake, very likely by Luigi Pernier.

[@Wakanda.Knuckles]

"Trojan War" is usually dated to 1200 BC or thereabouts, not 1400 BC

[@carolgebert7833]

Actually, the Iliad did NOT say that Troy fell. It says the war ended with the death of a Trojan Prince. (I think "Helen" were enslaved Greek women captured in raids. Hector's body was traded to return the slaves and everybody went home.) The walls fell during an earthquake much, much later. That is why there is "house cleaning." The Greeks never took Troy. The Trojans survived the quake and re-built. I agree with you, though, that these events were much earlier than generally believed. I like your point about why the Hittites are absent from the Iliad.

[@jesperandersson889]

Is PNYX the PNOXOSSOS i.e the KNOSSOS just a wild idea...

[@Megadronte]

Sehr gutes Video! Lleider ist die deitsche Übersetzun g sehr schlecht. Gibt es ein Buch in Deutsch? Really good Video. But the translation in German ist bad. Is there a book of this?

[@wkrapek]

I have not written one, and I have not continued my study of the Phaistos Disc. But I know what I need to read next. :-)

[@eathansohma8665]

I know this is really off topic to the video, but I was wondering if you came across anything regarding Haplogroup X during your Genetic Research! I received a dream that they were apparently founded in Macedonia. Wondering if you have any opinions on the matter! Great videos thank you for everything you’ve done!!

[@darrylmcdonald379]

Very good! I saw the original Plaistos Disk video and wanted more. But for pure Brain Candy, I'd like to get Mr. Krapek, Michael Wood and Eric Cline all in the same video to hammer this out. Did Troy fall earlier and are the Minoan s truly the dreaded SEA PEOPLES???

[@DrCorvid]

Maybe they became the Bering Strait kingdom, which had to be huge at the time, following the exodus.

[@15bernard33]

This is intreguing. Thank Bill. This was ofextra i tregue to me. Why? I had an extended stay on the Island of Knosis when I was 15 years old for three weeks. I went to a museum on the island dedicated to minoan clay figurines that represent the goddess. It was thought as i recall a patriarchy that became lopsided where the sociological aspect of a mythos takes over the woman's role and leaves her out. A modern day equivalent are catholic priests wearing the garb of acient Irland Goddes reference Michael Tsarion. This is in imitation of the goddess. The synbol of the goddess slowly diminished as she became less recognizable and is taken to represent the abstrsct phallos or blade of conquest. That is who gets the blond as presented into the jinogist propaganda for the War with Troy. Troys prooerty was coveted and was rooted in lust. That is when acted upon stealing the basic violation of natural law. Aka Hellen of Troy was seen as booty an object of conquest. Years later got interested in this from the book THE CHALLACE AND THE BLADE by Rian Eisler. Also to better understand Joesph Campbell fascination with James Joyce Ulysses. Joyce's Ulysses a 20th Century redition of the Oddessey is primafia evidence of the use of typology. What was the motivation for Odysseus to leave his Island Ithica to enter the Troyjan war. He was forced to or have his Island confiscated. That happened amyway when he got lost at sea for tweenty years for offending the god Poseidon and his son the Cyclop.

[@wkrapek]

Thank you, Kevin! Enjoyed our one-on-one conversation over this.

[@Agras14]

Nice presentation, but i do have some different views. I am personally not viewing the Minoan language as belonging to the Italic IE branch, but rather comprised of elements from different IE families. A similar view that Gareth Alun Owens (being mentioned in the presentation) also has, namely elements from Sanskrit, Greek, Hittite, Armenian, and Latin. Which if you think about it, it's not that extreme to consider. It is well known that Crete was home to many different people. In Homer's Odyssey, for example, we read of Heteocretans, Cydonians, Achaeans, Dorians, and Pelasgians all living on the island. Specifically, in Rhapsody/Book 19 and lines 175-177, "There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities in it: the people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achæans, brave Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi. There is a great town there, Cnossus, where Minos reigned who every nine years had a conference with Jove himself.". As a side note, Cydonians are mentioned in another passage. Let me also bring to your attention the work of Peter van Soesbergen ( minoanscript.nl/ ) which shows a Hurrian affiliation likewise. Another different view that i have is in regards to the origin of the ethnonym "Achaeans". As attested from numerous sources, including Homer, "Achaeans" seems to have been one of the three main ethnonyms of the Mycenaeans, the other two being "Danaans" and "Argives". With the exception of "Argives" which is essentially a regional ethnonym, the other two are epithetical ethnonyms, and along the lines of your presentation, not just "Achaeans" is related to water, but "Danaans" as well, and in my substantiated opinion they denote the Greek-speakers proper. For "Achaeans" specifically, we can trace its root word to the Greek rivers of Acheloos and Acheron, which by the way are two of the three main rivers within the proto-Greek region ( upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png ), namely the Pindus mountain range of north-western Greece. The third river is "Aoös" (which could also be related but also maybe not). The same Indo-European root word seems to be a cognate of Germanic "ahwo" (water)/awjo (island), Latin "aqua" (water) as you pointed out, and palaeo-Hispanic Lusitanian "aqua" (river). One other interesting fact is that in the "Geography" of Strabo we find a Scythian tribe/region named "Achaei" in the north-western Caucasus, which by the way is how the Greek "Achaeans" is also pronounced in Greek, namely "Αχαιοί/Achaei". These Scythians were also related to the water element since they lived by robberies at sea. Specifically it is found in Book 11, Chapter 2 ( penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/11B*.html ). Here is also a map which is based on Strabo's description, upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Brue%2C_Adrien_Hubert%2C_Asie-Mineure%2C_Armenie%2C_Syrie%2C_Mesopotamie%2C_Caucase._1839._%28BA%29.jpg. Now, Strabo writes that these could very well be descendants of the Argonautic expedition (which is a whole chapter of its own), but i believe it is probably a remnant of the Catacomb culture (2800-2200 BCE), out of which proto-Greeks seem to have sprang. There is also an interesting correlation to the Iranian forefather "Achaemenes", founder of the "Achaemenid" dynasty and Empire. This could likewise correlate with the "Graeco-Aryan" hypothesis ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan ), with the Catacomb and Poltavka cultures being the homelands of proto-Greeks, proto-Armenians, and proto-Indo-Iranian. Anyway, all these are interesting correlations. As for the ethnonym "Danaans", which in Greek is "Δαναοί" (Danaoi-Danai), this is as well related to the IE water element. The root word "danu" can be found throughout the Indo-European world. For example, look at the water goddesses Danu (Hindu), Dewi Danu (Balinese Hindus), Danu (Irish), Don (Welsh), etc.. As a word for water, "danu" is compared to Avestan "dānu" (river), Scythian "danu" (water and river), Ossetian "don/dan" (water), and further to steppe river names like Don, Donets, Danube, Dneiper, Dniestr, etc.. There is also a Danu river in Nepal. In short, "danu" is found in relation to water, throughout the whole Indo-European world, with an interesting concentration in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which is where the "steppe" branch of the Indo-European migrations most likely began from. Therefore, i believe all these can exclude both the ethnonyms "Danaans" and "Achaeans" from being associated to Minoans, who in any case, were genetically affiliated with Mycenaean Greeks, despite the steppe-IE introduction (linguistically and genetically) upon the latter, as attested in the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/ ). Last, indeed. The brothers Agamemnon and Menelaus also had a Cretan origin through their mother Aerope (granddaughter of Minos - King of Crete). As for their father Atreus, his line seems to have a strong Phrygian connection when you look at their forefather Tantalus. This could in fact corroborate the southern migratory route for the proto-Greeks, which has been one hypothesis, or it could simply point to a close Greco-Phrygian connection, as has been suggested even linguistically. In any case, "Mycenae" simply refers to a powerful citadel/region in north-eastern Peloponnese, neither the capital city of what we have contemporarily termed Mycenaean civilization, nor a historical collective ethnonym. Therefore if anything, Agamemnon was most probably a first among equals, bearing in mind that Mycenaean citadels/domains/regions were all independent from each other. I cannot recall whether there is anything else i wanted to comment on. I watched the presentation 3-4 days ago and only now found some time to comment on it. By the way, i am not dogmatic about the above, simply have some different views based on my knowledge.

[@wkrapek]

Ah. So the etymology is a lot thornier than what was presented in the paper. Obviously a lot of work needs to be done. As for Minoan being a polyglot language as you describe, I didn't know Gareth Alun Owens had gone into that direction. Do you have a link to any relatively new papers from him? I'd heard he thought Minoan might be related to Sanskrit, but that's all.

[@Agras14]

@@wkrapek Gareth Alun Owens views the Minoan language as an independent IE member, albeit relating to a number of other members from the IE family. Here is an article that relates to his work, www.cretegazette.com/2006-02/minoan-language.php. I question whether this is because Minoan might have been close to what PIE would have been, hence sharing similarities throughout all these different aforementioned IE families. Or because of the multi-ethnic presence that was found on the island, which was also a reality after all. Maybe a result of both. I also aforementioned the work of Peter van Soesbergen ( minoanscript.nl/ ) which shows a Hurrian affiliation. And along those lines, i also find interesting the work of Arnaud Fournet which shows that Hurrian was essentially another member of the IE family, www.academia.edu/40055347/PIE_roots_in_Hurrian. By the way, i have also noticed additional interesting things which might corroborate a Hurro-Urartian-Minoan connection. There are toponyms such as the region of "Βιάννος" (Viannos) in southern Crete which could be a cognate of the Urartian regional endonym "Biainili/Viainili" that also relates to Lake Van (around which their Kingdom was based). Last, we most probably also have a cognate for the Hurrian endonym "Khurrites" in Greek mythology/history, namely the "Κουρήτες" (Kourites), out of which the Cretan endonym "Κρήτες" (Krites) stems. There are also a number of Hurro-Urartian mythological similarities that might relate as well. All these seem to corroborate what you had written to me in the past. Namely that two layers of immigrants can be observed in Crete. More specifically you had written the following, "The first arrived 8,000 years ago and couldn't have spoken anything like Indo-European. I suspect they were Hattic speakers. Their ancestors probably came from places like Çatalhöyük. It's precisely at that time that the settlement became overpopulated and its inhabitants were overworked. That shows up in their bones. Obviously a perfect time to emigrate. We have another group of people who brought in bronze technology a little more than 5,000 years ago, and settled there in mass about 4200 years ago. I'm confident they spoke Indo-European.". Furthermore, the so-called "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component which is mentioned in the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" study, as having been inherited by both Minoans and Mycenaeans in the range of ~9-32% (predating the steppe IE migration), seems to be related as well. Maybe with it there was additional Y-DNA J2a introduction, probably sometime during the Eneolithic/EBA periods.

[@kamion53]

It's not clear to me where the Italic "homeland" lay nor what motivated speakers of Italic to move to Crete. I see more logic in deriving a Minoan language from Anatolian settlers that brought agriculture to the island, that could be a form of Pelasgian to tag a non-Indo-european language ( -ossos like -thos come from that language) or it could be an old Anatolian language.

[@rrapii]

Gute Arbeit

[@Megadronte]

Fer Diskos von Phaistos ist bereite 1988 von Dettmar Otto übersetzt worden

[@eftychiospardalakis7306]

KZbin- ΑΝΟΙΧΤΗ ΑΚΑΔΗΜΙΑ ΜΙΝΩΙΚΩΝ ΜΕΛΕΤΩΝ Αnd Yes it"s Speaks Proto-Greek

[@andrewwhelan7311]

Hi .Just try the ancient language of the Cymru/ Welsh. It is a living fossil thousands of years old and still spoken today in Britain.

[@frd49shlv45]

Study the Albanian language, do not stay like poles of a fence; WHY? Is there any other language today, more ancient than Albanian language; Antiquity should be studied with antiquity. Albanian language is glorious, a treasure. Whether you want it, or you don't want; She will shame you, who underestimates her. Albanian language challenges you.

[@chrisnewbury3793]

Interesting that the Trojan War is getting closer to the date of the exodus from Egypt. Also probably close to the eruption of Santorini.

[@slightlybetterthanaveragej6777]

Santorini, yes. I was thinking same thing. Exodus? No. I used to believe that was around then, too, but there is too much irrefutable proof that it didn't happen then.

[@chrisnewbury3793]

@@slightlybetterthanaveragej6777 I'd refer you to the fine work of Ralph Ellis then.

[@emmetsweeney9236]

If the language of the Minoans was Indo-European, why are linguistics unable to read alphabetic Eteocretan inscriptions? Sorry, translation unconvincing.

[@emmetsweeney9236]

Linguists, that is.

[@illyrian3949]

The disc speaks Albanian/Pelasgian

[@lianko2000]

Illyrian albanians didnt even exist then. Shut up already and go back to your cave

[@gledianlalushllari9577]

Ti vertete beson perrallat tek Enigma, apo jo? Ai eshte thjeshte emision per argetim.

[@gledianlalushllari9577]

@@lianko2000 The disc is not Albanian, but the language is one of the oldest in the world, it existed long before that. Keep your mouth shut when you don't know anything.

[@ΜιχΛαζ]

Wow everything is Albanian even you can find one single word art weapon construct.Brainwashed..

[@kamion53]

Fun part is that Alexandros, the name nowadays Greeks are so proud of that they would not allow any non-Greek to associate with Alexander is not even of Greek origin but of Luwian origin: Alaksandu king of Wilusa most likely spoke Luwian and thereby his name has a Luwian root.

[@nesta3348]

it's not the first of april buddy, keep dreaming

[@kamion53]

@@nesta3348 no was not 1rst of April, it was 1280 BC when Alaksandu of Wilusa made a treaty with the Hittte king Muwatalli II in which he asked the Hittite king for help against possbilily the Ahhiyawa ( Acheans). the tablet is now in the British Museum under nr 108569

[@nesta3348]

@@kamion53 And? 😂😂😂 The Mycenaean civilization dates back to 1600 BC 😛

[@nesta3348]

@@kamion53 sorry buddy, the name is still greek 😛

[@nesta3348]

@@kamion53 "Alaksandus was a king of Wilusa who sealed a treaty with Hittite king Muwatalli II ca. 1280 BC. This treaty implies that Alaksandu had previously secured a treaty with Muwatalli's father, Mursili II, as well. His name appears to have been borrowed from an equivalent name in an ancestor language of Ancient Greek (see Ἀλέξανδρος) or some related dialect, perhaps Mycenaean." At least post the whole text next time.

[@Nac-Soc-Geo]

Why are you stealing history Festos Disco is Colchian

[@ddddavid1956]

The disk is a phony!

[@kelor]

By by logic.. Welcome monstruous ignorance. You think "watar" is water???!!! Have you ever heard of the word "ATAΡ" (ATAR in english) in ancient greek?