The Political Zeitgeist (Ft. Joshua Citarella)

[@1DimeRadio]

In the Backroom on Patreon, Josh and I talk about the problem with the "post-left” and the phenomena of declining sperm counts, gay frogs, right-wing half-truths. Become a Patron and get access to nearly exclusive episodes of 1Dime Radio + my private discord server: www.patreon.com/OneDime⁠⁠

[@zainmudassir2964]

As a man I don't mind lower sperm counts. Focus on being good father rather than breeding to produce kids you don't intend to raise

[@doomscrollpodcast]

how do you do fellow kids?

[@WidespreadKnown]

The term "radlib" or "radical liberal" is often used for people who can only think of social solutions to economic problems. There are definitely people who don't know how to solve the issues of capitalism and can only think of policing words/terminologies, like setting up folding chairs on the titanic and getting upset at other people for messing them up.

[@YoungGirlz8463]

lol

[@xaviermagnus8310]

Solving the issues of capitalism without creating worse ones... quite a challenge. So far haven't seen anyone succeed...

[@zainmudassir2964]

'Radical Liberal Rafael Warnock' I can picture a dumb rich white woman saying that

[@taxirob2248]

@@xaviermagnus8310 when you throw capitalism out the window, you literally have the rest of the world against you. Hard to make any progress when you're fighting to survive that kind of opposition.

[@charlesghost1683]

1dime is some of the most sane content I've seen on KZbin. What i hear is a sober material analysis, not the self absorbed moralistic ideology I'm used to.

[@xaviermagnus8310]

Nothing screams modern left like- I refuse to learn from history and like denying past results.

[@taxirob2248]

Not true at all. The left is a diverse place where that sometimes happens, but not nearly always.

[@WidespreadKnown]

I think the Rudy Giuliani comment was off-base because "stop-and-frisk" did not lower crime as indication that once they stopped implementing the policy crime didn't increase. Crime decreased across America in the 90s and I'd have to look into it but I think Giuliani's policies weren't as effective as people remember.

[@1DimeRadio]

Even if the stop and frisk policy may have been unnecessary, the fact is that crime went down under Giuliani. As much as I hate the guy, I did look it up and during Rudy Giuliani’s tenure as mayor of New York City from 1994 to 2001 there was indeed a significant reduction in crime rates: • The violent crime rate dropped by 56%. • Murder rates fell by nearly two-thirds. • Robbery decreased by 67%. • Overall, major felony offenses declined by 62.3% from 1993 to 2001. Yes It was part of a larger nation wide trend. That trend was touch on crime policies, which led to crime decreasing overtime. Historically socialists states were always touch on crime as well. Im personally of the opinion that it is better to address the root causes of crime first (ie poverty and decline of communities). However, in a context of casino capitalism where there can be huge surges of crime, it is understandable why people would prefer a hammer solution over no solution at all. Its why the left’s ACAB discourse looks completely insane to normal people, especially people who have been victims of crime. Lets not be ideologues here

[@secretasiandan]

​@@1DimeRadiowhat you're saying is a valid reason for other people's invalid reasoning (which is actually just association). But your language suggests you might also think it's valid to attribute the crime drop to Giuliani. Do you?

[@Randompersonon-f5u]

​@1DimeRadio Serious question. Have you tried talking to someone who believes in police abolition in real life? Not 14 yo on Twitter, a real person. I'm not from North American so i don't know personally how those you call "normies" think there. But from organiser I know its sounds like they know your concerns and take it in to consideration, they of course know they need to talk to the masses, that it part of organising. And do you do organising? (Sorry for the broken english, second language) Cause you don't need to sell ideologies for the masses, you can just help build a material reality that would help them know for themselves. Instead of trying to convince someone in "Police Abolition" help building a community garde and talk about why its needed and why the police isnt here to help us. Same thing with family abolition. And the same way you dont walk around saying we need a dictatorship of the proletariat, you say "us working pepole dont have a say and we need a society where we are in control " you can do for other things. Realy love your show, it wholud be great if you'll interview someone on this topic, a real person or even a youtuber.

[@1DimeRadio]

The drop was the result of a combination of Clinton’s 1990s crime bills and Giuliani reforms. However, as we know that reduction in crime came at a great cost (mass incarceration, becoming a police state, etc). My point isint that this is the best cure. It does not get at the root cause of the illness. The point is that for ordinary people (this legislation was popular for a reason btw), ANY cure is better than zero cure. You cant get rid of the existing cures without allowing the illness to spread unless you tackle the root causes of it first. Until a better cure for the illness is implemented, removing the existing cures will only make the illness spread. instead of talking about defunding the the police in the abstract , or LARPING about ACAB, you need to first focus on poverty reduction, bringing jobs back, rebuilding communities, schools, helping families stay afloat, all of which get at the ROOTS of crime.

[@cuauhtez]

@@1DimeRadio Which is what many people do and have done but actively supporting policies of mass incarceration in the US is not a cure and it is just another way of spreading the metaphorical illness. It’s crazy how you totally disregard the fact that these policies reduced crime only temporarily but destroyed communities for years afterwards. There used to be a reason tough on crime policies are more supported now by the right wing despite lower crime rates in general. This is literally the opposite of getting to the root causes and that’s quite the point. This is why “populsim” doesn’t actually serve the left. It breaks and hobbles it because it is driven by scapegoating issues to avoid class consciousness. It has ALWAYS resulted in either exacerbating liberal policies to the benefit of right wing demagogues. The first half the last century demonstrated this throughout europe. This last election did as well in the US. “Left wing” populism is reactionary appeal to liberalism to combat neoliberalism. It is not actually collectivist, it almost always just nationalist. Again…which is why a billionaire is always the leader.

[@MrJfergs]

at 38:20 you talk about leftist holding this position that population decline and degrowth are not bad, I have to say I am guilty of holding this position. But I don't see how it is possible to realistically help climate issues while at the same time stating everyone can own 3 cars, a boat and big mansions filling them with tons of shit they don't need. We should be focusing on quality of life things (good working conditions, pay, employment, access to health care, healthy food, fitness, and community) that don't degrade the environment. To me that is what degrowth is about, not making poor people even worse off, it's about changing value from "I need to buy more shit to make me happy" to making people happy through lifestyle changes that won't impact the environment negatively.

[@shanihandel9621]

agreed. I thought I was the only one :)

[@rhumal]

i do not understand the resistance to degrowth except as some adolescent mentality of "i should be able to have whatever i want". finite resources do not allow for a mentality of "grow forever", so why does everyone think that we can keep living this wasteful, first-world lifestyle predicated based around that very notion (infinite growth)?

[@MegaElijah21]

To be fair, Tony has said in back room pods that he’s not against the legitimate leftist concept of degrowth (the one you describe) but rather a version that can be co-opted by capital as part of a sort of “green austerity” where’s it used as way to justify poverty and that people should be okay with less. He also just doesn’t like it from a purely optical standpoint where it’s a hard position to sell given it’s name and what it could imply to a majority of people

[@1DimeRadio]

Why do you assume that that pro-natalism and not wanting people to own 3 cards, yachts, and mansions are mutually exclusive goals. Most working people can never afford this kind of bourgeois decadence anyway so when you push the idea of “degrowth” in general, and not just Degrowth for the wealthier segments of socially, this message sounds out of touch with working class people who can barely afford a mortgage and put food on the table for their family. The last thing they want to be told is to “consume less for the environment.” As stated in previous videos, I don’t think any individual should be entitled to more than 2 or 3 properties max. Any yachts are stupid and wasteful expenditures for people with deep pockets and shallow taste. We fan ban those. Cars? If a very robust transit systems are built and we step up our urban planning, then cars will become less and less necessary. Then you can think about stuff like carbon taxes or caps on how many cars one can own. In the meantime, many people, especially those living in suburban sprawls or rural areas, still drive cars because they NEED TO in order to drive their kids to school, go to work, etc.. The problem is not that there are “too many people.” The problem is with our extremely wasteful capitalist mode of production and the environmentally toxic energy sources we rely on.

[@1DimeRadio]

Elijah understands my position well.

[@MegaElijah21]

In regards to the microplastic stuff, I find it really hard to believe that there are leftist out there who are like “ya that’s good actually, we should let corporations do that” like that just felt like a made up talking point I’m sorry, who in the real world or even on twitter is saying that

[@shanihandel9621]

I’ve tried to bring up chemicals/plastics and was immediately shut down. My context: left/lib internet and academic department IRL. At best the left avoids the topic because it contradicts with their legal battles over transgender “treatment” for children.

[@1DimeRadio]

Its definitely an issue that the left ignores. Unfortunately whenever right wingers happen to take notice of an issue, the response of many leftists is to reflexively take the opposite position or assume that the issue itself must be a thing only right wingers can care about (ie falling birthrates).

[@MegaElijah21]

@@1DimeRadio idk I just think saying the “left” ignores this whole sale is kinda…maybe it’s just my anecdotal experience but I’ve seen plenty of leftist recognize it as an issue. 🤷‍♀️ I mean I guess I could buy into the idea that the left doesn’t address it enough rhetorically but to say there’s people on the left who actually endorse it like its a good thing is a bit ridiculous imo.

[@faijro9260]

I've heard similar sentiments. Plenty of people demonize masculinity. Some even to the point that they think men getting chemically feminized is a good thing. Sentiments like, "Absolutist kingdoms and Western Imperialism existed because Kings were men" aren't uncommon in politically illiterate, but otherwise educated left leaning people. People don't really cling to these beliefs though. Whenever I've pointed out monarchs like Victoria and Catharina the Great and the crimes of their empires, people usually go "oh yeah" and never voice such sentiment again. Generally, whenever you find it hard to belief "a person like X" exists out there, you are setting yourself up for failure, because there's billions of people, who think all kinds of things.

[@a_speeder1728]

@@1DimeRadioif I had to take a stab at why, my guess (as a trans person) is that rhetoric of men being feminized and sterilized is very easy to go hand in hand with narratives of globohomo and transing kids. As if the companies creating the pollution that apparently cause these disruptions are all run by a queer cabal or something. I personally don’t see a contradiction in standing up for people’s bodily health and wanting to have control over how they develop, but I can see how the rhetoric could easily shift in ways that make it a culture war issue instead of reigning in corporate power.

[@TheMartialEsotericist]

This was a great podcast! I love Joshua Citarella and his content!

[@basj4510]

This deliberate depiction of degrowth as austerity is not just disingenuous but it literally is you doing what you claim to be concerned about messaging that liberals do, all while starting off a false premise in the first place. You claim other people are going to co-opt this to usher in austerity, as you are helping them message that right now, when it’s not even a position with any real backing, if anything it’s “green” growth that is already mainstream. This also avoids dealing with physical reality given how environmental conditions are rapidly deteriorating with climate change and the way capitalism destroys ecosystems and peoples homes, sources of food and water. And the more this goes on, the harder it will be to adapt in the future, and it’s naive to think this deterioration will follow a linear path as if this can be weathered through without fundamentally upending this inherently unsustainable way of production, and this does include the Nordic model countries as well given they also take in more cheap resources from the global south so this way is also a dead end, and we are seeing it unravel in real time all on its own. And the apparent “success” of the Nordic countries you keep applauding, all making a hard right turn anyway, so even then it was a failure as it’s only a matter of time their social safety nets get eroded away. All it takes is to consider what exactly do you think is going to happen to supply chains with worsening climate conditions? Because the reality is at the end of the day is that degrowth isn’t actually a choice, it’s a matter of when and how, and how much time we have to adapt to new conditions as a whole in a sustainable manner that doesn’t make things even worse. We’d be better off if more people at least listened to folks like Jason Hickel instead of clowns like Leigh Phillips or even the maga communist idiots, because this is one point of agreement you would have with them if you genuinely believe this austerity talking point.

[@derekmoench]

ALL OF THIS. (Materialist analysis, what is it?)

[@frankblunt9511]

Marx proposed abolishing the family, but however, for a completely different reason, in a completely different world. Marx considered the family a basic unit of capitalism and wanted to end that so humanity would embrace the concept of a family of man working for the benefit of all humanity, as opposed to this current narrative that we should depopulate the world so the rich can enjoy a better future.

[@ArchDukeBee]

I feel like the major shift i have been seeing is the deconstruction of left right ideological identities. There are major flaws thinking about things in such a binary. I also see a shift in moving away from culture wars and mostly wanting something different.

[@DaveE99]

Because that’s just counter insurrgency and manufactured consent in a system the oligarchs can control and limit which is the most important thing to them

[@geminye-j1c]

It would be a bit strange to break down that division. For example, how can you have a communist party which includes fascists? Culture wars: culture proceeds from economic relationships. If culture wars are the cover of class wars, then the culture war is also a necessary battle. If culture wars are a diversion from class warfare, then sure, they’re bad. But I don’t think that worldwide it’s one or the other. There are many cases where a so called cultural conflict is actually about class. And where it’s not.

[@taxirob2248]

Culture wars are often fought over fandoms and fantasy media, so yeah they area distraction. Ain't nobody got time for metaphor.

[@derpfaddesweisen]

​@@taxirob2248 Yeah, this is mostly the opinion of those who aren't on the receiving end of a culture war. For example, the extreme hatred of the anti-LGBT movement is hardly explainable when it is just a distraction. A distraction is reality TV and social media, not stuff people start murdering others over. It isn't a distraction. For many powerful instutions it is the purpose in itself.

[@Ana_Fern]

Start the year with two handsome guys discussing leftist ideas - 2025 is gonna be wild

[@TheMartialEsotericist]

Right?! We need more handsome dudes like 1dime and Josh to discuss leftist ideas! It's good PR hahaha

[@turloughkelly3829]

Citarella - 'There's no left' *proceeds to blame left-wing strawmen for everything for 90 minutes*

[@1DimeRadio]

You know what we are saying. Stop being a literalist. He was saying that there is no serious “organized” socialist left on the horizon in the US and Canada right now

[@turloughkelly3829]

@@1DimeRadio I don't know what you're saying. How can this entire rightward shift be the fault of a left that doesn't exist as a social force? Honestly, I don't get this whole Doug Lain/Cutrone schtick that's everywhere at the moment; if the left is so irrelevant and everyone from M-Ls to idpol freaks are so wrong, why not just ignore them and do your own, presumably correct, messaging? Who's stopping you? Why fixate on this stuff?

[@michaelslowmin]

It's not even a straw man. The US "left" is really like that. If you really wanna be honest this fake left is really the right, because they're actively doing things the keep the status quo imperial hegemony in place. The only group that's attacking this head on is the ACP and the " left" hates those guys cuz they actually want to win. No one else wants power and that's a problem

[@Celis.C]

The problem with the current economic model is that it's fairly literally "profits at any cost". That reduces wages for employees, meaning less income tax to fund societal necessities. That means cutthroat tactics when it comes to sourcing materials cheaply, dumping waste unless it can't be done discreetly; not designing products to be able to be repaired or even recycled, because all of that cuts into the profit margin. It also means that the value produced by employees chiefly ends up in executive salaries and bonuses, as well as investor dividends where applicable. That value doesn't go to the workers in any fair distribution, again cutting into income taxes. With reduced salary, employees can also not afford to buy as much, which hinders economic activity. "GDP growth" doesn't mean much if the actual produced value doesn't end up benefiting society (to a meaningful degree). All that shaved-off value that gets taken by self-enriching company-owners, executives and shareholders doesn't sufficiently go to the actual economy, because most of that money is just used to accumulate and hoard more money. The shift that is needed is a people-first economic approach. That WILL mean less luxury, but especially less pointless products such as knick-knacks. It will also mean fair economic trade with the countries that now get economically exploited by Western economies. That's an often overlooked part of the 'wealth' that gets attributed to 'capitalism'. It wouldn't be anywhere near as enriching if it weren't for (economic) imperialism. That will also require a new spiritual message for the people, because the prevalent one seems to be 'money = status'. That's not going to get us very far if we intend to call ourselves a civilized species.

[@sergeigen1]

Imagine aliens looking at us as a 'species"

[@ReggieMeisler]

Defending law & order is reactionary, let’s be honest about that. Part of being left or revolutionary is that you imagine a new world, you don’t tinker around the edges for reformist opportunism. Doing that will never liberate all people and lead to real change. So much of working class ideology is created from yt supremacy, patriarchy, and fascism. You can’t just side step these issues to have a popular electoral majority-this kind of logical conclusion is exactly why electoral politics is so dangerous and reactionary-certainly we need to hold coalitional differences, and it’s also important that we don’t simply abandon our highest values, many which serve an existential purpose for our marginalized coalition. Certainly we don’t have to lead with radical culture issues, but to completely abandon them internally for “greater purpose” just feels like naturalizing oppression and class reductionist. Have you read about abolition or are you operating off of second hand knowledge? I get the feeling that folks who do not support abolitionist ideology simply have not tried to look more deeply into where this ideology comes from or have an understanding of just how completely horrifyingly terrible our prisons and police are-- to the point that yes-- if you literally disappeared police and prisons tomorrow and let everyone out with no other positive reforms, it would be a huge net positive since the large large majority of people caught in our criminal legal system are ostensibly being tortured and it is to no one's benefit except the capitalist class. Abolition Democracy is a true intellectual analysis of power and material analysis, it is not just some upset college kids spewing reaction. Just as anti-capitalism and Marxist theory itself is maybe scary to the electoral majority, the knowledge is important to help us understand "why" reform of capitalism simply does not work-- that there are structural problems in how capitalism operates that prevent it from being reformable. This same problem exists in policing and imprisonment. The underlying mindset that punishment and imprisonment can operate as a form of "rehabilitation", particularly when 93% of all crimes are crimes of poverty, is simply forwarding a right wing myth that will see us reproduce these evils under an ostensibly "socialist society" if we do not come to terms with the theory. Policing and imprisonment are always a tool of oppression, because they operate from a colonial logic of coercion and flat understandings of who does harm and who was harmed. If you read about abolition you will also read about Tranformative Justice, which is a broader framework of separating our understanding harm vs crime, and looking at systemic problems that produce and reproduce "criminal" actions which require systemic change vs just flatly seeing a poor person steal from a rich person and calling this "wrong" and the poor person definitively in the wrong and the rich person definitively in the right. Based on your ending paragraphs I think we basically agree that Transformative Justice makes sense and the capitalist criminal legal system is bad, I think the main disagreement is that we can achieve a true Transformative Justice by merely redistributing wealth or even having a socialist system. The contradictions in policing and imprisonment make this not the case, imho, and that is why I suggest reading up on Abolition and how policing and prisons actually operate. Maybe the best book I've read on this subject is "Prison by any other name"

[@jacobjones630]

even from a "pragmatic" political position, wouldn't arguing from a far left position get you closer to a compromise you want instead of arguing from the compromise position in the first place? The far right nazis in Trump's coalition didn't hurt him electorally at all, why would having tankies in the left hurt the left?

[@1DimeRadio]

Defending the status quo is reactionary. But the goal of socialists is not merely to oppose order itself, but to create a new, better order in the future. Socialists should seek to establish a more egalitarian and peaceful order that puts an end to the anarchy of capitalist production. What is the point of being a socialists? To improve the lives of human beings. If your position is merely to allow things to get worse (crime, economy etc) to “accelerate the delusion” then good luck getting people on your sides. The ACAP rhetoric delusional, self defeating, and a gift to the right. Those who act like crime isn’t a problem reveal how out of touch they are, even with the minorities who they claim to represent. Its one thing to support major reforms that can better hold the police accountable and reduce systemic racism.ACAB rhetoric is another thing. Police don’t need to be nearly as militarized as they are. I absolutely agree. I been to Japan and cops rarely even cary guns. But that’s because they have low crime to begin with. Low levels of drug addiction and not as much poverty. You need to deal with poverty and drug addiction FIRST before you can get the police out. Because crime impacts poor areas the most, and some upper middle class leftists who only have heard the talking points suburban upper middle class conservatives don’t recognize this reality. Even Adolph Reed has noted before that a lot of the people pushing for the crime bill of the 90s were black people themselves, due to the insane amount of crime that occurred during the crack epidemic of the 80s. Clearly, this sledge hammer had consequences (mass incarceration, many non-violent drug offenders getting locked up), however crime did go down, and organized crime was significantly curtailed. In other words, it wasn’t the best solution (it was a reactive solution) but from the perspective of many ordinary people any solution is better than Zero solution. So instead of talking about abolishing the police, the left should focus on poverty reduction, bringing jobs back, rebuilding communities, schools, helping families stay afloat, all of which get at the ROOTS of crime. Let me put it this way: Don’t be so fast to get rid of the cure before getting rid of the illness, even if that cure has bad side effects. Until a better cure for the illness is implemented, removing the existing cures will only make the illness spread.

[@ReggieMeisler]

​@@1DimeRadio have you read about abolition or are you operating off of second hand knowledge? I get the feeling that folks who do not support abolitionist ideology simply have not tried to look more deeply into where this ideology comes from or have an understanding of just how completely horrifyingly terrible our prisons and police are-- to the point that yes-- if you literally disappeared police and prisons tomorrow and let everyone out with no other positive reforms, it would be a huge net positive since the large large majority of people caught in our criminal legal system are ostensibly being tortured and it is to no one's benefit except the capitalist class. Abolition Democracy is a true intellectual analysis of power and material analysis, it is not just some upset college kids spewing reaction. Just as anti-capitalism and Marxist theory itself is maybe scary to the electoral majority, the knowledge is important to help us understand "why" reform of capitalism simply does not work-- that there are structural problems in how capitalism operates that prevent it from being reformable. This same problem exists in policing and imprisonment. The underlying mindset that punishment and imprisonment can operate as a form of "rehabilitation", particularly when 93% of all crimes are crimes of poverty, is simply forwarding a right wing myth that will see us reproduce these evils under an ostensibly "socialist society" if we do not come to terms with the theory. Policing and imprisonment are always a tool of oppression, because they operate from a colonial logic of coercion and flat understandings of who does harm and who was harmed. If you read about abolition you will also read about Tranformative Justice, which is a broader framework of separating our understanding harm vs crime, and looking at systemic problems that produce and reproduce "criminal" actions which require systemic change vs just flatly seeing a poor person steal from a rich person and calling this "wrong" and the poor person definitively in the wrong and the rich person definitively in the right. Based on your ending paragraphs I think we basically agree that Transformative Justice makes sense and the capitalist criminal legal system is bad, I think the main disagreement is that we can achieve a true Transformative Justice by merely redistributing wealth or even having a socialist system. The contradictions in policing and imprisonment make this not the case, imho, and that is why I suggest reading up on Abolition and how policing and prisons actually operate. Maybe the best book I've read on this subject is "Prison by any other name"

[@raphaelward1711]

Defending law and order is reactionary, wow. Do you call the police when your car gets stolen?

[@ReggieMeisler]

@@raphaelward1711 only for the insurance money, because they make me do it. I do not call the police for any reason. My partner is autistic and a POC and is at high risk of police murdering them as a result.

[@OleNesie]

if you want socialism with less authoritarian control, you end like Salvador Allende. You could ask him how well it worked if he was alive

[@1DimeRadio]

The tragedy of Allende also radicalized my thinking, however, we shouldn't look at “authoritarian vs non authoritarian” in such a binary way. It is important to have the capacity to act in an authoritarian way in order to prevent a coup and your nation’s security (Allende already should have done something after the first coup attempt), however you need a system in place where rulers can be held accountable and democratically selected or else you open up the potential for unlimited state tyranny and dictatorship of one faction. You should read Machiavelli’s discourses for a nuaunced analysis of this question. It talks about the need for both centralization and the ability to act swiftly and decisively, while having a mechanism in place to prevent the monopolization of power at the expense of liberty.

[@grimes8849]

I am really old. Working class, lived and worked in many countries. Their is no rightwing economic populism. Everyone you meet is ostensibly cordial, but dig and they dispise many groups of people and they want to be personally filthy rich. You guys live in an extreme bubble.

[@YoungGirlz8463]

Because everyone is liberal with their neighbors' stuff and conservative with their own.

[@cuauhtez]

Thank you. My god, you can tell these people never actually interact with the working class in the states. I am from an mexican immigrant family and the only kind of “elites” they talk about are the *other* latino “immigrants” who get the “massive handouts” that “we deserve.” We are so far from actual class consciousness it is baffling. And don’t even get me started on religion which leftists have isolated themselves so successfully from that they don’t realize it is still the most dominant influence on the publics worldview.

[@lop7764]

Non-black ppl hearing of the expression "stay woke" has led to the complete divorcing of the idiom from it's meaning. And I'm so tired of it

[@xaviermagnus8310]

Woke is from Marx wtf. Literally awakened to class consciousness... which is a one dimensional and very failed take. Which ironically crt continues but just randomly changes the dimensions of measurement without nuance.

[@brainbane8550]

As someone who has lived around yts my entire life, it's just 1 of many reasons yts shouldn't be considered allies.

[@xaviermagnus8310]

@lop7764 Given it's direct ties to Marx... seems like it might be a different group confusing it. Awakened to class consciousness... you've just been indoctrinated to a religion you didn't know was behind it.

[@xaviermagnus8310]

@@lop7764 Marcuse was just a Marxist student effectively. And Hegel showed them how to escape religion while using it.

[@moimimi9399]

You completely dismiss the traditional nuclear family structure being patriarchal as being “woke stuff”? Really? Really?…really?

[@YoungGirlz8463]

I think his point is something like you can't force people to raise someone else's kid.

[@cuauhtez]

I mean to be fair he just followed the logical conclusion of his own reactionary logic. This is why I can’t get with “anti-woke” leftists. They are subsumed in the “culture war” in much the same way that they can’t even properly parse when and where identity politics is necessary.

[@YoungGirlz8463]

@@ultravioletiris6241 You're not wrong.

[@1DimeRadio]

We never dismissed patriarchy. We said that “abolish the family” is a stupid proposal for leftists to be pushing and it is why most of us on the left cringe at it while the vast majority of people find the idea horrifying or are highly skeptical at the very least. Please find either ways of advocating for emancipation politics. Don’t poison the well for the rest of us.

[@miguelseminega7102]

It is dumb woke stuff, most people like tradition. To a lot people there is quite literally nothing more important.

[@inuyasha142314]

What kind of crime are we saying increased, and by what metric is crime increasing? Are some starter questions that come to mind.

[@zainmudassir2964]

It's about Narrative and public posturing. Biden deported far more people than Trump yet there is 'migrant crisis' rhetoric which will disappear once Trump is in office. It's same with suppose 'rising crime' which will disappear with GOP in power

[@taxirob2248]

retail theft is the new drug war apparently

[@raphaelward1711]

All ideology is wrong because it is a necassarily finite description of an infinite universe. Reality will always contradict ideology.

[@YoungGirlz8463]

What's wrong with Stoicism?

[@andreerfabbro]

By the same logic scientific models are wrong (and scientists would theoretically agree since the scientific method is based on that assumption). Ideology is just a tool that everyone adopts knowingly or unknowingly, bias is necessary to make choices in life without having to evaluate first every possible outcome of every possible combination. The point is to actually keep it in check

[@geminye-j1c]

1:08:07 lol. This guy is so scared to call fascists fascist. Judging from history, the fascists will not spare him for his kindness.

[@CommunistConsensus]

Societies form to allow specialization such that provisioning can be done more efficiently and in greater volumes for all of its members. Healthy and holistic citizens advocate nurturing policies and will not begrudge resource usage with best practices procedures to see the nurturing done. The assumptions are based on the idea that whatever provisions are produced will be applied to the meeting of basic needs equitably. They are also based on the idea that everyone will have more time to focus on quality of life enhancements, equitably. But, most of all, although often unspoken, it is founded on the idea that the members who do not proclaim themselves political sociopaths with their actions deserve optimal autonomy and not just to simply survive. Individuals have as much a "right" to choose a healthy and holistic collective set of principles to follow as they have a right to manifest autonomy outside a healthy society. Yet, these choices are a matter of power. So, where do these boundaries of choice reside and when do we apply the principles decreed by a collective? Well, that is the learning curve for each and all of us. This is a process we can collectively utilize determination that will be done both individually and collectively. This is rather self evident yet not very well positioned in the societal creation modelling. Hierarchy is a privilege creating structure that is sociopathic in its inception. Economic hierarchy being the most destructive to the society. It interjects competition into contexts where only provisioning is required. It detracts from the goals of healthy society creation with competitive conflicts of interest such as click formation, withholding knowledge and resources from the provisioning processes, and with the general distractions of conflict. Capitalism is the mechanism by which political sociopaths establish the hierarchies of dominance. This is why we should never afford political sociopaths adult authority in a society that seeks to be healthy and holistic. Profit seeking and competition are not necessary in provisioning at the currency issuer level (federal congressional). All federal spending is newly created currency and stimulates some part of the private sector economy. There are plenty of scientists and support staff qualified workers who would love to be employed by the government or a worker owned cooperative with a federal contract to research and make pharma products without the investment capital sociopaths injecting their world domination agenda into our healthcare system and provisioning of other necessities. Unhealthy societies are what happens, over time, when political sociopaths are afforded adult authority in a society. Political sociopaths work to normalize the sociopathy. A political sociopath is someone who is willing to do harm to another for the sake of opportunity, social capital, hierarchy, profit and/or pleasure. Its a class of behavioral choices, not a diagnosis. A reduction in our tolerances for politically sociopathic choices and those who reserve a right to those choices in any and all governance, adjudication, implementation and enforcement of policy will lead us to a healthier society. After seventy thousand years of attempting to create civil societies rather than just opportunity centers we should not be surprised that this would happen. But, humans are reticent to give up choices or take responsibility even when dictated by their own moral ideals. Dichotomies of political choice are made sociopathic with balkanization and empowered through consensus. This principle assists in policy creation and framing when applied to these dichotomies.: demographic defense nationalism religious ideology justification meritocracy as an ideology meritocracy as a tool for mission expediting hierarchy as an ideology hierarchy as a competitive advantage consensus as an ideology All governance will descend into oligarchy, plutocracy and fascism at rates that are determined by the quality and stability of its consensus seeking strategies, the tolerance/intolerance of bad faith actors in its processes, its best practices policies and the quality of the documentation of data that goes into the making of its policy choices.

[@YoungGirlz8463]

It's a monist cult. The Dark Ages never ended. ✌

[@AdobadoFantastico]

Based manifesto comment, 10/10 would publish in underground newspaper again.

[@gaddyiii]

Obviously means I'm going to disagree with some of your points, but thank you for recognizing the existence of the "generic Marxist Leninism" I identify with. In america, even leftists look at me like I'm crazy when I tell the I'm a "generic ML" or "y'know, just your regular type of communist." To Joshua's point, my mainland Chinese friends and family don't seem to have any trouble understanding the label, even tho they usually disagree

[@Christopher-gp9iv]

@@GuildistGuevara MAGA-Communism is literally just FDR flavored social chauvinism that co-opts marxist aesthetics and terminology. Please explain to me where nerds like Haz or Hinkle are "anti-revisionist" or anything related to "Hoxhaism", lmao.

[@elisennesh7641]

I don't like your politics but it seems insane not to know it exists. I recognized it the instant I started organizing with Millennial Leftists. A third of a room introduced themselves as MLs in 2017 and I went holy shit, where did all these tankies come from!?

[@gaddyiii]

@@GuildistGuevara Im not that studied on them, but they seem to have their fair share of revisionist talking points. The whole thing with emphasizing regressive social views and Trump voting is definitely shock-jock tailism. That being said, I don't think it's a bad sign they exist: like the guys in this video said, there's an itch that's being scratched, and I personally think it's productive to explore. But yeah, it's definitely Leninist-inspired and not purely a grift or aberration, as far as I can tell.

[@schadowizationproductions6205]

Canadian Breadtube

[@1DimeRadio]

Ew

[@michaelslowmin]

Most of breadtube is Canadian. I honestly think that's at least part of the reason those guys are so out of touch. They're people with a somewhat social democratic government who take their amenities for granted talking down to Americans who are in much more dire straights overall

[@WasFakestCenturyAesthetics]

​@@michaelslowminyou obviously have no idea what Canada is actually like

[@michaelslowmin]

@@WasFakestCenturyAesthetics And you prolly have no idea what living in the US is like. What I do know is the snyde lil breadtube shits that call themselves "leftists" are largely canadian and don't know shit about the working class. The working class is sick of being talked down to by trust fund babies

[@daydreamer83]

Good discussion, but glad Joshua qualified Tony's criticisms regarding China, and in particular the crude elision of China and Russia. Say what you like about Hakim or JT, they're not conflating the two. The point about an authentic ML-position is precisely not to be doctrinaire, to understand varying concrete forms, to incorporate ( again, as Hakim himself has discussed) a quasi-Gramscian understanding of cultural identifications and institutions as well as mythologies that make up hegemony, as well as avoiding 'adventurism' and 'tailing' in tactic and strategy. Hammer and Sickle, as with the ACP aren't especially salient, but some combination of Radical Republcanism alongside 'city on a hill' and forefront of production of social goods as well as tech as aspects of the 'good life' under the banner of America's promise all potentially work. Movements aren't just some neat unfolding of dialectic but you can certainly see both 'withdrawal' as retrogression re. democracy, And 'forward motion' in terms of productive capacity as both happening under Deng, that have given rise to opportunity for more developed democratic mechanisms, the strengthened role of Trade Unions, a mixture of central and regional planning, dynamism and political sovereignty over the market etc. as a 'higher' stage of Maoism under Xi. As JC mentions, there are opportunities - rathe than guarantees -from implementation of cybernetics here along with internal worker-led coordination within firms toa level we've only seen fleetingly within the West. Holding China's claims up to scrutiny is not only good but necessary, just like China itself has internal mechanism of review (individual and party strategy; a dynamic range of factions in the CPC presenting different paths, from ML to more Singaporean on the right-flank), but there seems to be an over-correction or cynicism towards the extent of China's 'break' from or re-routing the forces of the world-system just because it continues to participate in international markets and isn't running the USSR's strategy re third worldist movements; you get this from otherwise perfectly smart, indeed in some ways extremely smart guys like Varn and Studebaker, in a kind of tendentiousness for the sake of a 'neater' argument or staking out of terrain.

[@marka.3770]

Was this machine translated? 🪦

[@daydreamer83]

@@marka.3770 Lol, honestly joke doesn't work though because it's the antithesis of machine-translated. Machine would produce nice, uniform sentence structures and syntax, without typos or potential run-on sentences. Also, you can break down any of the sentences and see that it refers to some premise regarding the world and contends or argues something from that even if you disagree with it or want to go 'immanent' and start pulling apart the analytical rigor of a youtube comment....

[@michaelslowmin]

Authoritarianism is not necessarily good or bad. It's simply a reality. It's about who the authority is for. Who wields power and for what?

[@1DimeRadio]

id say its a matter of the degree of authoritarianism. There is a scale from libertarian-liberal-authoritarian-totalirarian. For example, Castro and Khrusvhev were much less authoritarian than Stalin and hoxha. Mao was also less authoritaruan than Stalin. China today is much less authoritaruan than North Korea. China in many ways is a mixture of authoritarianism and democracy at the local levels. You do want constraints and power to an extent to prevent abussa while also allowing the stats to have enough teeth to act swiftly in the interests of its people

[@michaelslowmin]

@1DimeRadio That seems reasonable

[@DPtdryste]

Multipolarity is the best Left atm given how jacked up the domestic US left has become

[@taxirob2248]

anyone who is moving the economic and political convo to the left has value IMO

[@brainbane8550]

​@@taxirob2248 by the left you obviously mean Marx, Engels, Lenin, the USSR and Mao, yes?

[@brainbane8550]

Jacked up how? There is no left in the USA that I've seen?

[@taxirob2248]

@ every millimeter in that direction has value IMO. Class consciousness is its own reward. All else follows.

[@brainbane8550]

@@taxirob2248 Left liberals exist to prevent any real left wing movement. Anti-authoritarians are baby brained morons who also exist to prevent any real left wing movements. The left wing is not a spectrum. You either wish to see th collapse of the fascist, capitalist system and replace it with a true worker's democracy, or you do not. No more millionaires, no more landlords, no more hundreds of acres of land owned by single individuals. Just an armed, educated workforce. That's The Left. No spectrum. No more big tents that allow libs and reactionaries in.

[@michaelslowmin]

Idk if you ever have covered this, but as a Canadian, it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on MAID. Ashley Frawley has talked about it at length.

[@jamilhneini1002]

Ngl i was surprised when you said micro plastic talk and stuff like that is spoken about only by the right when like irl most left people i know and even hardline communists talk about it and think it's bad

[@1DimeRadio]

we more so meant the mainstream liberal left, who dismisses everything as right wing crankery

[@jamilhneini1002]

@@1DimeRadio Ohhh that make more sense my bad

[@regalesq.3687]

@@1DimeRadio Idk. the ill effects of micro plastics are pretty mainstream at this point.

[@faijro9260]

Two of my favorite creators in a longform video. This is going to be good, based even.

[@ReflectiveJourney]

Just a funny observation: i was just listening to the vod and both of you sound very similar.

[@alexhubble]

20:26 people plan - even enthuse - about a hunter-gatherer life? The Internet is a crazy place, man, crazy place...

[@marcomoreno6748]

Or homesteading, or "live by myself in a cabin in the woods". All these traditionalist trends are antisocial behavior.

[@ninoy4914]

I think "wokeness" does not inherently matter when it comes to politics. When times are good, people may be more likly to take a more progressive position on cultural issues if any sort of "progressive" is in power during that time

[@MegaElijah21]

I kinda take the stance of “you’re never going to convince someone who might not make rent next month to not be racist” That’s not to say we should excuse the behavior, but rather that large scale changes of people’s cultural attitudes aren’t gonna happen until we address their material realities

[@1DimeRadio]

Read revolt of the elites by Christopher lasch

[@faijro9260]

@@MegaElijah21 I am by no means an expert, but I think social connection to people from other creeds eradicates racism more than prosperity. Manual laborers in 1930s Germany for example, were more likely to vote communist, as opposed to voting for the NSDAP, then the slightly better of upper half of the working class. Because these laborers were more likely to actually have Jewish co-workers and were thus immunized, to some extend, against the most outrageous anti-semetic claims by the NSDAP Poor material conditions cause social tension yes, but it is not a natural law that this social tension gets expressed as racism.

[@MegaElijah21]

@@faijro9260 ya your definitely right! I think finding humanity through social connections and community through aligned class interest definitely goes a long way. I will say I think the inverse is true as well in that in that settler societies like America and Australia have a history of segregated labor movements where there was tension between black and white proletariats/unions but so I don’t think it’s merely as simple as saying, once we abolish class, racism will also be abolished but hey idk 🤷‍♀️

[@wokeisweak]

​@@MegaElijah21 the only kind of racism that matters is class based. Anti-black racism mattered because it confined blacks to the lowest classes in the US. By definition racism is based in class so if class is abolished race goes with it. Class politics is the way to overcome racism within the working class. Make it a win-win program where we don't take from certain racial groups to give to others. Take from billionaires only. Make the bosses take the losses.

[@andreerfabbro]

Great discussion. Though there's an issue that bugs me: 1:10:50 I saw that Second Thought video about authoritarianism when it came out but I don't recall the video going to the "both sides fine" conclusion explicitly or subtly and I didn't interpret it that way. To me it was just demistification through reframing. Idk if it's just me since other creators gave the same criticism about that video and others like that one. I have observed the overall phenomenon but that, to me, at the time, wasn't an instance of it

[@1DimeRadio]

To me it seemed like classic whataboutism. Basically “America is authoritarian, therefore critiques of Soviet authoritarianism are irrelevant.” At least that's the implication. I like JT’s videos most of the time, but felt that one was too simplistic. The lack of Checks on state power and the inability to really hold party elites accountable were some of the most obvious flaws with past socialist experiment and its not very helpful to merely dismiss those critiques just because they happen to be weaponised by hypocritical defenders of Western imperialism.

[@alexhubble]

50:37 yeah, Lenin probably would say that. Very clear eyed man, if a little cold...

[@sergeigen1]

when the guys in this video say "the political zeitgeist of our time" do they mean the USA ? or the "western world" ? or who is "us" in this zeitgeist ?

[@1DimeRadio]

If u look around whats happening in Europe, not just in north America, you could say “the west.” However in the conversation were were primarily talking about the US and Canada

[@_Hraefn]

The trans stuff isn't complicated, man. No one cared when it was adults, but the internet grooming of kids and the teachers grooming kids and the laws making it illegal for teachers to tell parents that their children were "questioning their identity" that stuff went way too far, man. "we're coming for your children" was a literal marching chant. A lot of people took that real fucking serious.

[@Eastbayrob]

Damn homie he’s only 37 simmer down brother. I thought you were going to say he was like late 50’s the way you set that up lol.

[@michaelslowmin]

IDK, I'm 34 and I'm definitely feeling my age

[@desmondbrown5508]

I'm in that age region and I've already got half-white beard and lots of grey hair and am partially balding. He's definitely got a combo of lucky genes mixed with probably taking good care of himself, too. He's definitely looking better than a lot of us.

[@lephtovermeet]

Love the topics, love the convo but the interview and discussion skills could use work. Seems like a lot of long winded talking with little intention or even discussion, next to one and other, rather than getting to the heart of topics, or having an engage back and forth, or even just hitting talking points. I do like it though and I will continue to follow.

[@O_Draws]

As far back as 2005-ish, I remember a rad-fem contingent of the leftist punk community I was in trying to convert all of the men in the broader community to tofu eaters, because they found out about the estrogen aspect of soy. Such a misanthropic agenda is baffling.

[@damianalejandro6959]

Those morons were losing their time, estrogen in soy has no effect unless you eat insane amounts of it

[@PaulDavidPhotography]

​@@ultravioletiris6241 It's a myth. Nuts that Joshua dropped that misinformation in here completely unchallenged. Look up the 2021 meta-analysis of the literature for the short explanation based on the most recent scientific consensus, "Neither soy nor isoflavone intake affects male reproductive hormones: An expanded and updated meta-analysis of clinical studies Katharine E Reed et al. Reprod Toxicol. 2021 Mar."

[@YoungGirlz8463]

@@ultravioletiris6241 Big Tofu at it again. 😜

[@PaulDavidPhotography]

Posting again as my comments keep getting hidden, but this is a complete myth that has been thoroughly debunked in the scientific community. Only lunatic fringe pseudo-scientists today fail to understand the difference between plant phytoestrogen and mammalian estrogen. I want to post sources, but every time I do, the comments keep getting hidden, like caught in KZbin's filter due to containing links

[@The_Cybernetic_Egoist]

Loki in my sounds stupid but I just watched the first minute of it and I'm pretty sure they don't understand what abolished the family means when most anarchists say it I'm pretty sure they just mean to make the nuclear family not the default option as I do believe the nuclear family is a little weird there are some quarks to it that I don't really like I'm not saying people shouldn't have the right to do it but it just shouldn't be the norm

[@YoungGirlz8463]

Because offspring aren't their family's property and children have the same human rights as everyone else. They use inexperience as an excuse to keep them inexperienced.

[@1DimeRadio]

I know what it means. Ive listened to the sophie lewis book and im still not convinced whatsoever that we should throw out the babies with the bathwater

[@andriaabashidze2497]

@@1DimeRadio i know what it means. i don't know what it means

[@user-fl4rx2yz9c]

nice technolyze intro music there

[@flarp671]

1Dime is who Lex Friedman thinks he is.

[@mvs4130]

Maybe do Jimmy Dijk (from the Dutch Socialist Party, at first they appear social democratic and even conservative but they are really marxist) and Peter Mertens (from the Belgian Workers Party).

[@mvs4130]

I can contact them personally, Jimmy Dijk and Peter Mertens.

[@zainmudassir2964]

Interesting. 2025 will year of Great struggle from middle east to the Imperial core of US and EU

[@alephnull6457]

Only if we make it happen.

[@alexhubble]

47:33 I am also very intrigued by Google, Walmart, particularly Walmart as they move actual things. The first thought is they're planning without regard to market forces... but they are doing it for money. If they don't make money, then they have information on market forces. First thought only...

[@nihilnothings000]

A crossover that I didn't expect in the New Year, but a welcome nonetheless, love both of your contributions to the leftist scene.

[@the_only_Tripp]

RECLAIM BROPULISM❤❤❤

[@Sneed-pb9cz]

After a decade of misandry you realized you were wrong lol

[@gidrbridumarg3152]

What MLs are pro Russia? Now I've heard everything.

[@1DimeRadio]

Most are not. Only some, like the Jackson hinkle types are

[@gidrbridumarg3152]

I guess nowadays anyone can call themselves just about anything.

[@nevinplove5097]

Last section reminds me of Children of Men.

[@KevinKrasko]

Yo that brat flag behind him. I gotta cop that

[@SherbertLW]

39:47

[@AnonymousFriend-i7l]

If the current ideology was post-woke.... it would not be such a popular podcast topic. Get on with a "real" topic PLEASE....

[@MrJfergs]

hmmm, would not the opposite be true? If the current zeitgeist was "post woke" the podcast would be more popular??

[@P4DDYW4CK]

I just can’t with the whole ‘abolish the family’ shit. You want the right to have a permanent majority? That’s how you do it.

[@LexiH36]

The right doesn't have a majority tho. Most Americans don't hold traditional values are increasing numbers of the aren't religious either. Why shouldn't there be a reimagining of the family unit?

[@nihilnothings000]

@@LexiH36 The right aren't a monolith of religious people, some of these "anti-woke" rightoids are non-religious atheist libertarians who just doesn't like being PC. Joe Rogan exemplifies this non-tradcon Republican Right.

[@rhumal]

what do you imagine "family abolition" to be?

[@1DimeRadio]

Then maybe talk about “humanizing the family” not abolishing the family. Maybe instead of lecturing normal people about their “heteronormative” lifestyles you actually articulate solutions to the problems you are concerned with, instead just talking about what you want to “abolish.” Like supporting services that protect against child abuse, domestic abuse, etc..

[@rhumal]

​@@1DimeRadio Exactly, I think that using academic jargon to a mainstream audience is going to be alienating. The reality is that people react first and think later (if ever) and we need to meet them where they are. Tamily life is not okay right now, and we need to look at all the material/economic structures that are causing this hardship. All the cycles of abuse i've witnessed and experienced were driven largely by the inhumanity of capital, and i think that's the sort of thing we should be talking about with people, not using a phrase that makes it *seem* like the state/society ought to prevent parents from having children, cohabitating, getting married, etc. "humanizing the family" is a good way of framing that problem!

[@blue_wolfproductions12]

27:48 I think it's important to be moderate left socially and moderately left economically. The proletariat needs intersectionality and socialism must make attempts and reducing inequalities between people. Things that go beyond socioeconomic class as well.

[@alexhubble]

57:11 people - minorities, the poor, where it matters - want better police, not no police. Holy god, that you even have think about this...

[@1DimeRadio]

Exactly

[@alexclark7473]

1:08:39 perfect response.

[@WorldConstruct]

It was great until you decided to laud nuclear fission. Anyone with any basic scientific and sociological understanding knows that nuclear fission is the stupidest, most wasteful, most toxic endeavor we can undertake. Indeed, the neoliberal capitalism system loves nuclear power unless it’s fusion such that in our lifetimes it completely dismantled the national French nuclear fusion project that would now be starting to provide domestic energy if it hadn’t been sacrificed in favor of the war on terror. Nuclear fission is not the most efficient energy generation by any measure unless you discount the prolific production of radioactive toxic waste because you are misled by a bunch of paid propaganda generated by a multibillion dollar industry that is every ultraconservative’s wet dream: it kills real green projects, it enriches a central few, and it provides a vehicle for absolute international hegemonic dominance by the global north. Reactors are gigantic infrastructure projects that take decades, the various “safe and healthy” designs you’re fed by these nonsense articles are all untested and many of them cannot even theoretically produce enough energy to be worth the investment. Nuclear fission is a non-starter, which is why it is the current object of investment for the large Silicon Valley tech companies with loose-cannon investment approaches. And similarly why nuclear fusion is intentionally relegated to startups without enough investment or access to infrastructure to be able to realize their goals.

[@miguelseminega7102]

Gtfo, if you care about climate change nuclear fission is the way to go. It's people like you who spit in the face of progress because it hasn't meant your completely unrealistic expectations, that we are in this situation in the first place. Flesruoy llik

[@ludviglidstrom6924]

Totally disagree about Marxism-Leninism and "authoritarianism", and I semi-disagree on MAGA Communism. I also don't understand your problem with attributing the success of the nordic countries to imperialism - just compare Norway to Venezuela, both oil rich social democracies. And the alliance between Russia and China is extremely important for the future of the world, it doesn't matter that Putin is an anti-communist.

[@1DimeRadio]

Lol i hope you don’t use these arguments to anyone who has studied the history of these countries, let alone knows any economics. Venezuela is absolutely harmed by sanctions, but thats not the only reason its not as successful as the nordic countries. This is a very disingenuous argument that some MLs use to justify the command economy systems of total state control that existed in the soviet union. Put simply, the miserable conditions of countries like Venezuela and Cuba can be in large part attributed to imperialism, however, that does not mean that the success of Nordic Countries is because of “imperialism.” By that Logic China is successful because it “partakes in imperialism” by trading with the US and “exploiting the globals out.” This argument can neither explain the success of China or the nordic countries. It’s a cope. The simple fact is that they with successful mixed economies, the main difference being that the China is still a one party state and had much more difficult obstacles to deal with. They started with a much larger population that started from a much pooer starting point. China (and Vietnam) are highly successful in a way that Cuba just was not.

[@michaelslowmin]

​@@1DimeRadioI think I tend to lean more in OP's direction, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the Nordic countries got their amenities from their proximity to the Soviet Union and giving the strong labor movement some of it's demands is the lesser evil in the capitalists eyes? I think imperialism also plays a role there, but I don't think it's the whole story.

[@osoisko1933]

Yeah Diego, smart guy and his heart is in the right place, but he’s going down the same route of those in the 20th century who looked to Lenin and Stalin’s ‘success’ and not the costs and hypocrisy.

[@ludviglidstrom6924]

Stupid comment. What would have been the cost for the world if they hadn't done what was necessary?