The Potter & Clay Analogy | Dr. Leighton Flowers | Responding To Doug Wilson | Soteriology 101

Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, responds to Doug Wilson's interpretation of The Potter & Clay Analogy as used in the Bible.
Does it mean what Calvinists interpret it to mean in Romans 9?
Check out the full video here:
• Doug Wilson on God's S...
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#Calvinism #DrLeightonFlowers #DougWilson #Soteriology101 #Bible

[@Someone_Else1]

Once you are out of calvinism this just makes sense. Thanks Leighton for being a instrument (not irresistably used mind you) that lead me out of calvinisim. I still love my fellow church goers (which are mostly calvinists) but I do not have to sow my theology together like I used (e.g. reconcile unconditional election with Gods love for the whole world). God bless

[@christianlivingandlearning5279]

Glorious video, brother Leighton. You're coming with the bread from heaven and feeding His flock. Keep up the righteous works. ❤️

[@nathanhellrung9810]

Calvinists hyper literalize key passages of scripture, not because the context and proper hermeneutics informs them to but because their systematic theology informs them to. They post-hoc rationalize scripture to fit their systematic. Many do this unknowingly but it's frustrating to say the least.

[@makedisciples8653]

They START with THEIR theology. Then they write a systematic Followed by interpreting difficult passages by using their systematic Then, finally, interpreting and defining the easily understood passage by using their misunderstanding of the difficult passages What they should try is to understand the easily understood passages first, then using those to understand the difficult passages. Then and only then put together a theology. And put together a systematic if you think you must. But why? I just use Paul’s found in Romans.

[@emilesturt3377]

Well said

[@ddr5138]

I wouldn't say Calvinists "hyperliteralize". I think they hyperallegorize like their founder Augustine, and then everything becomes an allegory of TULIP in some way.

[@jeffreybomba]

@@makedisciples8653 They don’t interpret simple passages, they manhandle them with their systemic.

[@Makai77]

@@ddr5138 "then everything becomes an allegory of TULIP in some way." That is true, and it's sad. They're so steeped in their Calvinism that everything harkens their mind to it.

[@johndeyo2116]

Far from negating them, these passages emphasize the importance and power of our own choices in regard to our relationship with God! Yes, we repent, we humble ourselves, we place our faith in what Jesus has done. No glory to us in any of that! Thanks Leighton!

[@crazydaisy2275]

I just watched your video on Acts 13:48. Truly excellent. Until recently I had trouble reasoning with how Calvinists use it to make their point. I knew they were wrong and why. Your video really inspired and informed me on this verse’s true meaning. Thank you my Brother

[@a.k.7840]

Many commit the fallacy of _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ when they read Acts 13:48. However, belief _doesn't necessarily_ take place after the appointment to eternal life. One way to demonstrate this is to change the terms: "And as many as were allowed onto the airplane bought airline tickets."

[@crazydaisy2275]

@@a.k.7840 I’m not sure that I know what you mean. But, if tickets are available anyone can buy them. Also if the plane is destined for Hawaii and there is a layover in Las Vagas and a passenger desires to get off because he’d prefer to live his life in “Sin City,” then the pilot will not force him to continue to his predetermined destination.

[@crazydaisy2275]

@@a.k.7840 I read your reply again, I get it now. I believe you’re saying that it could mean, as many as believed were ordained unto eternal life.

[@a.k.7840]

@@crazydaisy2275 yes, you understood correctly. The structure of the passage isn't specific as to when they believed. Therefore, we can only conclude that two things are true about those people: 1. They were ordained to eternal life and 2. They believed. We must consult the context of scripture as a whole, allowing scripture to interpret scripture to help us understand what was _the most likely_ chronological order of the events of Acts 13:48.

[@ThinkingGodsThoughts]

@@a.k.7840 I think your understanding depends on taking the words "ordained unto eternal life" as though this means "ordained to believe". But eternal life is not an action that a person performs, it's a blessing given by God. The verbs do indicate that the ordaining took place before the believing. How long before isn't explicit, but it is prior.

[@shepherd7744]

Thank you brother Leighton, again, clear explanations, simply letting the Word of God explain itself. This is why you never see a calvinist going back to the old Testament to interpret Romans ch 9, or at best rarely, because it absolutely destroys there claims of unconditional election. I find it hard to believe that most of these educated calvinists have not read all this, but when you've got as much skin in the game as these heavy hitters in the calvinist world have, ie books, job positions, congregations that pay their salaries, I feel it becomes almost impossible in the flesh to admit the truth that is not only very plainly laid out throughout scripture, but also deep down in their own spirit, as almost all of them has admitted how incredibly hard it was to swallow the calvinist pill when they originally CHOSE to believe it. Please keep up this ministry, it IS making a difference. I have turned on countless people to your channel and it has brought such peace to most of them. God bless brother 🙏

[@johndisalvo6283]

Excellent AS USUAL Leighton!!!

[@lark8356]

Grace And Peace To You. May I Contact You Via Email Or Facebook To Discuss This Further?

[@ishwarbhola]

Amem

[@J-ky8qg]

Please please please, keep making content like this! I am praying for you, this bibilical ministry and those who apart of it! This is such am important message that needs to be heard! I really appreciate your tireless effort and thank God for you about that! I'm loving your work and loving our God more and more, seeing him with greater clarity.

[@robbycooke]

Great stuff! Thanks!

[@joseotoya2102]

Right on Dr. Flowers!

[@Riakonmgs]

Best explanation supporting your reasoning in the scripture I've seen yet. Thanks for all the work. God bless you.

[@JulianCaesaro]

Awesome explanation! Really helped to clarify the verse in Jeremiah(though I suppose that Paul did so in Romans 9) on a topic that went over my head recently! Hallelujah!!! 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳 Now I just have to remember that set of explanations whenever I see the judgement of the Lord Jesus Christ play out on people given to reprobate minds. 🧐☺️

[@Makai77]

Another great lesson about the errors of Calvinism. You continue to explain it so clearly through the scriptures. Calvinism will never go away, sadly. But the same is true of any cult- they will be around until the end of the world as we know it. It will be so glorious in heaven's eternity, with no theology or doctrine... just being in the presence of God, living in eternal peace.

[@markemma5]

I forgot about the passage in 2 Tim 2. Very good cross ref to Jer and Rom 9.

[@HKFromAbove]

It would seem Calvinist seem to change prepositions to suit their narrative. 'In the hands of the potter' to 'by the hands of the potter' just my observation.

[@jasoncraig5549]

A great example of this video in the Bible is that of King Saul. God's spirit was on him while he tried to direct Saul on the right path. Saul did not listen and the spirit left and an evil spirit came upon him. God then used him to usher in David as King.

[@keith3362]

Great video, this is the whole point of Romans 9 not God creating some people for hell but people rebelling (Israel) and how God can have another people if ones He is working with rebels (another people=gentiles). The potter doesn’t purposely mar the clay. God doesn’t make people rebellious it’s their choice. Everyone looking at Romans 9 needs to read Jeremiah 18.

[@obrien709]

Well said!

[@keith3362]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7If you are a Calvinist you must believe that Adam rebelled because God ordained him to. I don’t think that free will was removed though - what was removed was eternal life - the life of God Himself. So man is born spiritually dead. Was Joshua crazy when he said ‘choose this day who you will serve’? Also how did Enoch ‘walk with God’ in the book of Genesis?

[@brandone.5106]

Good word.

[@SaneNoMore]

This is a good one.

[@gregmahler9506]

The Jeremiah 18 passage you went over reminded me of Jesus’s parable here: “He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭24‬-‭30‬, ‭36‬-‭43‬ ‭ESV‬‬ So in the above case, the enemy or Satan would be the one who spoiled the clay.

[@lark8356]

Grace And Peace To You. May I Contact You Via Email Or Facebook To Discuss This Further?

[@gregmahler9506]

@@lark8356 - I can speak here if you’d like.

[@lark8356]

@@gregmahler9506 OK. Thank you for your response.

[@duckymomo7935]

The soil is beyond our control Satan is the cause for evil Non Calvinists can’t comprehend that there are factors beyond our control

[@godsmercycallministry7263]

Well said

[@legodavid9260]

I'll admit, I struggled a bit with Romans 9 and how it seems to teach Calvinism at first glance. But upon realizing what Jeremiah, whom Paul was quoting, was actually saying, it all makes complete sense. A clay pot does have its own independent agency... The clay can either cooperate with the potter and be turned into a beautiful pot of honor, or be hardened and stubborn, thus making it difficult for the potter to make something good out of it. Thus, it gets turned into a vessel of dishonor, to be used as an example for others.

[@christianmama2441]

@legodavid9260....you know if a little kid read your comment about pot having "its own independ agency"....they will laugh real hard. I understand you reject calvinism, but your argument is hilarious and completely distorts the analogy given in Scripture. How about just leave it like it is in Scripture without those kinds of explanations...

[@MineStrongth]

​@christianmama2441 It's not really. Have you ever worked with clay? Or play dough, mortar, plaster, etc.? Often, these materials can seem to have a mind of their own when you try to make them form a tricky shape.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

Thank you!!

[@gojohnnygo3209]

Which is to say: Once Saved Always Saved is man made heresy.

[@nellycalleiro1897]

Which Bible do you recommend? Thank you

[@marketingassistant1078]

But I think the argument is, if without the intervention of God we are not capable of repentance

[@gk.4102]

But none of the passages imply such. On the contrary, the passages reinforce the idea that repentance is man's responsibility not God's. Plus Calvinists use the analogy to imply that God shapes people as vessels of honor or warth arbitrarily, but as we see here, it's conditional upon man's choices and actions.

[@MineStrongth]

@marketingassistant1078 Why is it that you think that's the argument?

[@Saint_DayBreak]

James white vs Leighton flowers on Romans 9

[@lartiga]

The context of 2nd Timothy 2:20 is found by answering the question, to whom is Paul directing his writings? To believers, as believers, we have to continue with our sanctification, to become useful instruments in God's hands, 2nd Timothy 2:20 is not in any way referring to an unbeliever having the will to become a vessel of honor. I do agree with the interpretation of Jeremiah 8, except it still implies God's sovereignty to do as he pleases. Psalm 138:8, Psalm 33:11, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 46:9-10, Proverbs 16:33, Job 42:2, Isaiah 45:1-19, Isaiah 10:5-18,Isaiah 14:24-27.

[@RR-ue4im]

God does what he wills , an the result of disobedience is consequences. God doesn’t send consequence for no reason

[@mateusbandeira9017]

Yes God does as He pleases that doesn't mean He does things for no reason

[@littlefishbigmountain]

@@mateusbandeira9017 In fact, He’s often extremely transparent as to why He’s doing what pleases Him

[@lartiga]

@@littlefishbigmountain nobody is arguing if God has a reason or not, He is a just God, so whatever he decides to do, is pure and Holly and all for His Glory. I was merely emphasizing that Dr. Flowers was using 2nd Timothy 2:20 totally out of context.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

@@lartiga “Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenæus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” ‭‭ ~2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭26‬ Obviously Paul is writing TO Christians, but here he’s writing ABOUT those who have erred. Please explain to me how the fact that this letter is written to Christians makes this out of context.

[@geraldpolmateer3255]

We need to remember that about 98-99 percent of the people could not read and write. That means the scripture was read and commented on by the leaders. The person who led was to make the scripture understood by oral learners. Oral learners have an incredible ability to memorize. Too many make the scripture harder to understand with their complex theology instead of being humble and teaching it so that people can understand it. Leaders who can explain the Bible so all can understand, must understand it well. Those kind of teachers can explain it with few words. There was a time when I heard someone say, "He must be smart because I didn't understand anything he said." The problem was the person speaking was like smoke and mirrors. It amazes me how some "well studied" people cannot explain some of the simple truth because their minds have been clouded by their sense of self. I have heard men over the years tell about how many years of experience they have. Sometimes I ask if that is 30 years of experience one time or one year of experience 30 times.

[@danparks8290]

Then why does it say "grant them repentance"?

[@christophersnedeker]

God grants repentance but man decides wether or not to receive it.

[@christophersnedeker]

God grants repentance but man decides wether or not to receive it.

[@damientahbaz3172]

To add to the comment I made earlier today...and I believe when you go with that Reformed soteriology there is just tons of stuff in scripture that makes no sense. I believe that was mentioned here in this video, that that intuitiveness and common sense we have is of God to a degree

[@seekingtheoncesaved2834]

It hardens itslef before it exsits or does God choose for it to harden itself first? Romans 9:22 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath---prepared for destruction?

[@damientahbaz3172]

There are a ton of scriptures that speak strongly against irresistable grace. I think "Are Calvinists so impressed by John Calvin that they have major cognitive dissonace when reading a lot of scripture? By the way, whos systematic theology came first or at least, was made official, Calvin or Arminius' ?

[@slit282]

Flowers is the man

[@moriahw3947]

In my daily "read through the bible in a year" readings this week, I've hit upon Romans 9 and I'm struggling with it again! This is timely and I can't wait to listen to it.

[@ddr5138]

Romans 9-11 become a struggle when you look at it Calvinistically as a description of individual salvation, which it isn't.

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

Romans 9 is summed up in vs 30. Israel,as a nation, missed it. Gentiles, as individuals, have found it. It's Paul's analogies that throw people because they refuse to see that the nation ended as represented by the physical seed of Abraham, Ishmael. Esau also represents Israel who despised their own birthright. Isaac depicts Christ, the one and only Son who took Israel's place as the firstborn (ex 4 22)

[@shredhed572]

Bingo!

[@shredhed572]

@@contemplate-Matt.G Also, Pharoah as analogous of Israel's hardening. First, by hardening their own hearts. Then, being hardened by God, after many opportunities to obey God.

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

@@shredhed572 Yes, and in the type, the exodus led Israel out of bondage. In the antitype, the second exodus, we are led out of bondage to sin and the law that empowers it.

[@damientahbaz3172]

Something that breaks the most basic rules of common sense.... and Reformed people have said to me "well God doesn't think like us"

[@Deathlock61]

WRONG as God has said in the Bible that his ways and thoughts are nothing like ours and are highers as heaven is higher So no God doesn't think like us AT ALL

[@christophersnedeker]

​@@Deathlock61How then can we know God?

[@artemusbowdler7508]

It’s called “straining the metaphor “

[@amadeusasimov1364]

There's just too many calls to responsibility and if/then statements throughout scripture, for me to seriously see Calvinism as a correct theology. It's so odd to me why Calvinism is so determined to remove the culpability of man from the gospel. And at the sane time, put all of man's responsibility on God. And yet, Calvinists do not actually live out that same fatalistic theistic determinism in practice.

[@chaddonal4331]

it's unlivable practically. Can you imagine trying to? As a parent, if you try to train or redirect your child, you realize that they acted exactly as God predetermined that they would. Wars, rape, abortions, torture -- none of it occurs apart from God's decree. So, how do we legislate, overcome, bring about repentance, persuade, etc? Maybe this is why so many Calvinists come across as smug and emotionless. What separations of mind and heart must we accept to see our Holy God as having ordained all evil that comes to pass? And what dual speak we have to embrace to distinguish between what God ordains but has not authored (i.e. evil). It can simply become too much to try to live out. How much better to take God at His word. He wills our righteousness and blames us for our rebellion. His grace is available, and He holds us responsible for our response to Him.

[@matts.6558]

Plain and simple exegesis. Well done

[@TomAdams-gw7gc]

Mr. Flowers, Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here: You say “The clay being spoiled was because of their own free choice or free will.” So, here is how I understand what you are saying: the Almighty, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Sufficient, Sovereign God grabbed some clay and put it on the potter’s wheel. He fully intended on making a clay pot for honour and started to mold it and then realized that the clay that He “thought” was good was all of the sudden spoiled and thus He had to change His plans and mold it into a clay pot of dishonour. Unless I’m missing something, by your explanation, that means that the All-Knowing God didn't know something (which is horrendous!!) and also makes him reactionary and thus He changed. Yet, Scripture says “For I am the LORD, I change not;... (Malachi 3:6a [KJV])” It sure sounds like this clay thwarted or changed God’s plans. Yet Scripture says: “I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. (Job 42:2 [NASB])” Not to mention the very fact that you claim it was the clay (Israel, mankind) that spoiled itself. Hmmm, I think I will go with what Jesus had to say! I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (John 15:5-7 [KJV]) For lack of fear of being labeled a “Hyper Literalist” the word “nothing” means “NOTHING”. Man can’t breathe, can’t think, can’t act without Jesus!!! Which also means that no one can spoil themselves by themselves! All I can say is that you serve a “WEAK” god and it is not the God of the Scriptures. You serve a god who is at the whim of man and serves man! And just for the record, I am NOT a Calvinist! I am a lover of the Doctrines of Grace. I am a believer in the Almighty, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Sufficient, Sovereign of this world and the one to come.

[@MaryObasi]

Very well said .

[@MineStrongth]

So all those non-believers, who don't have Christ, aren't out there walking around and breathing right now?

[@MineStrongth]

Where does it say that the potter was surprised? When did it say he didn't know the clay would go bad?

[@damientahbaz3172]

Reformed soteriology basically makes all the narrative in the scriptures of encouragements, admonishments, choices, etc not to mean much if anything since any meaningful obedience has to be upon irresistible grace. We already know we are less than nothing before the Creator. It just seems meaningless that God would put on a big show like this when everything is predetermined

[@RUT812]

It just so happens that I have been memorizing this verse. To me, it also addresses transgenderism.

[@RR-ue4im]

Amen 🙏 God sending districting or evil to people is a result of the disobedience or sin . A prodigal or seared consequences is a rustle of abominations an disobedience

[@claytonbenignus4688]

I can't wait until you read Archbishop Dmitri Royster's Pastoral Commentary on the Book of Romans as he untangles the Potter & Clay Metaphor in Jeremiah 18. Lights will be flashing in your head like a Laser Light Show!!! As per the Honorable Use of Clay, Pots for Saffron Crocuses would work. As per Dishonorable Use, Chamber Pots come to mind.

[@sadiqsuleiman1480]

The only part that is not very clear is how the clay in itself can get itself spoiled. Maybe sir you can shed more light on this as the literal conditions for spoiling is beyond the clay.

[@RR-ue4im]

Disobedience or a abomination to God willfully disrespect to God like Sam Kinison who was a pastor then turn atheist very disrespectful to God

[@RR-ue4im]

Sam Kinison the comedian was a pastor an his dad was a pastor to

[@littlefishbigmountain]

Is the fact that we have a sin nature that compels us to sin not beyond our control? And yet death passed to all men because all have sinned. Some more than others, and yet we all equally need a Savior.

[@dw6528]

DW: Dr. Flowers did address that - where he highlighted the *CONDITIONAL* statements within the text. The text strongly infers that man is grated CHOICE between obedience and disobedience. And the *CONDITIONAL* statements within the text show a divine response to that choice.

[@christianmama2441]

@sadiqsuleinman1480 in their version, the pots have free will and can decide what the potter makes of them....lol

[@beared_saint8886]

I've been stewing on this question for a while; isn't Calvinism still logical robust assuming God doesn't determine every conceivable thought and molecule in all creation, only that He determines ends of salvation?

[@shredhed572]

Logically robust? Not if it isn't true. Like evolution (biogenesis) for example. It has great exploratory power, but, is a failed scientific theory.

[@beared_saint8886]

@@shredhed572 just because something is ultimately false doesn't necessarily make it logically inconsistent. Logical consistency isn't the only test for truth. Notice I made no mention of Calvinism in light of scripture. I'm simply trying to separate determinism from Calvinism so that they can be evaluated independently.

[@gk.4102]

There are Calvinists (although very few) who believe in Libertarian freewill just like we do. _"...only that He determines ends of salvation?"_ Everyone believes this. Augustinians believe that it's unconditional while the rest believe that it's conditional.

[@beared_saint8886]

@@gk.4102 What I meant by the phrase that you quoted was unconditional. My apologies if that wasn't clear within the context.

[@gk.4102]

@@beared_saint8886 I don't think Calvinism will be robust even in your scenario. For example: Calvinism claims that God takes NOTHING from an individual into account when electing them for salvation in eternity past. This claim makes the Calvinistic election arbitrary and random. But Calvinists will deny that God's election is random, but that will be the implication if NOTHING from the individual is taken into account.

[@killuafanboy3812]

I often have questions related to soteriology, and one of my most common things that I wonder about is... are there worldly Christians? Is a worldly Christian a fake Christian or a false convert? I firmly believe in OSAS, but I am not sure about my salvation quite often. I know what I believe, though. That God loves me and Jesus Christ died for me and everyone else, and I wanna let as many people as I can know. But over the years, it seems like I have become hardened and too afraid to do things because of all the dangers of false teachers, persecution, and fear of meeting bad, scary people. I prey as much as I can for God to help me to live for him, but I feel stuck and like I can't get out and like God for some reason is leaving me in my stuck state.

[@killuafanboy3812]

@heavenbound7-7-7-7 I don't believe that OSAS is false because of things that Jesus and the father say. But our family's old church closed and we've been looking for a new one for a while. I have audio Bible apps, and I do read/ listen to them. Mainly watch lots of Christian videos, though. And I know that people understand the Bible differently, but I don't think that if you hold to a potentially unbiblical view that it nessisarily means you are unsaved.

[@killuafanboy3812]

@heavenbound7-7-7-7 I do trust God, at least in thought. Emotions, though, are harder to deal with than thinking. It is easier to think good than to act good, especially with dealing with emotions that get in the way of you serving God boldly. I don't really see how OSAS is unbiblical, but I can understand why someone would think that.

[@killuafanboy3812]

@heavenbound7-7-7-7 I am aware of those warnings, but I don't think that all those warnings are nessisarily about a loss of salvation. Or in danger of going to hell. For example, just because you’re earthly father tells you a bunch of things you should not do and how you should behave as his child, doesn't mean that if you don't behave that way, you are not his child or will stop being his child. That's kinda how I tend to look at salvation as becoming apart of God's family, and I don't really see, from my understanding of God's character, scriptures that say that God will kick his children out of the kingdom or something like that. But I still think that those warnings are just as valid and important but not in danger of being separated from God forever kind of way. It seems more to me like you won't be blessed like someone who does live faithfully. You will receive less rewards and not be treated the same as a Christian who lives a wonderful and Godly life. But you are still loved and cherished by God as much as any other believer.

[@killuafanboy3812]

@heavenbound7-7-7-7 I have seen some growth in my life, but being kinda stagnant and not growing is a scary thing cause it makes me wonder.

[@chaddonal4331]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 What branch of Lutheranism to you belong to?

[@Drspeiser]

In order to expose the falsehoods of Calvinism, just keep reading the Bible.

[@climatematters6632]

I do feel sorry fo the likes of Doug Wilson. He really is like a boy sent to do a man's job. He so elequently describes the Calvinists' way of thinking and Leighton comes along and points out the complete lack of scholarly ability in their arguments! Doug is once more skewered and hung out to dry! He'll be back for more too! They are a determined lot, the Reformed! 😮😂😂😂😂

[@dfischer5878]

Except he never talks with them face to face…..

[@emilesturt3377]

Calvinism is on par with flat earth

[@damientahbaz3172]

that is like some kind of theological pleading of the 5th because there is no good answer

[@elmerfudd2402]

3:19 God made people to cry out "Crucify Him!" ?

[@johnyates7566]

You wrestle the scriptures to your own destruction.

[@letgodbetrue8864]

The Calvinist view doesn’t reflect the righteous nature of God.

[@ellisrowe363]

Augustinians only have one set of glasses. Blindness is a sad thing; all they need to do is turn-on the light.

[@ellisrowe363]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 Clever but wrong. God has turned on the light through Christ and the gospel for all to see. BTW, are you one of the elect?

[@ellisrowe363]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 I noticed you did not answer my question. Why not?

[@ellisrowe363]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 My mistake, it was fore-ordained that you would not see the question.

[@ddr5138]

​@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 How do you know you're one of The Elect?

[@ddr5138]

​​@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 How do you (or Luther for that matter) know the difference between your own reason and the operations of the Holy Spirit? Are you one of The Elect simply by virtue of the fact that you believe?

[@casenswartz7278]

How do you interpret the spoiling of Israel in Romans 11 being Gods plan and decree?

[@Richard_Rz]

You're assuming Gods Decree was a decree that instantiated a Deterministic worldview without warrant here. God decreed the Freedom itself of free creatures. How do YOU explain it?

[@casenswartz7278]

@@Richard_Rz I’m not assuming lol: “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬-‭32‬ They were decreed to be hardened to bring salvation to the Gentiles, it’s so simple.

[@mateusbandeira9017]

@@casenswartz7278 if you take this literally, then no jew could ever believe. But that's not the case

[@littlefishbigmountain]

@@casenswartz7278 What you just quoted says Israel “experienced a hardening in part” and that just as the Gentiles were disobedient and obtained mercy by Israel’s disobedience, so too Israel they will receive mercy as a result of the mercy shown to the Gentiles. Where is a decree in any of that? It’s all just describing what’s happened and how God planned it to come to pass and then executed it? You can say that that’s what a decree is if you like, but there’s no actual mention of a decree. If anything, it actually depicts God as much more hands on than that. Then it concludes “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” No matter how you slice it, this cannot mean that God created people just to predestine them for hell (either actively or simply by “passing over them in their sins”). He did it SO THAT he may have MERCY on them all. Even here, “bound” is a much more active term than mere decree, but the bigger point is that He did it for the express purpose of showing His mercy on Israel and the Gentiles alike. So, yes, the fact that God worked this to bring salvation to the Gentiles is a simple fact (which neglects the other side of it, that God worked that to bring salvation back to Israel), but that’s not even the point of delineation between Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic interpretations of this passage.

[@ddr5138]

​@@casenswartz7278 "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Where's the decree?

[@elmerfudd2402]

At the beginning of the video you stake your position as an "exegete", yet you ignore scriptural context regularly in your proof-texting. Example: When you reference 2 Timothy as evidence in making your case against God sovereignty making vessels prepared for destruction, you completely ignore the context of 2 Timothy. Who is Paul speaking of in 2 Timothy? Believers who have already been made alive in Christ. They are no longer slaves to the sin nature they were born with. They actually can choose to act in obedience to God.

[@nezz0r]

Sorry but for the clay to spoil it has to be put into a location where it will spoil. That's not a free choice. The next thing is a sentient and sapient being is not an object. An object does not feel or think so it does not feel pain and that makes pottery something different than animals, humans or even plants. If I build a house and make holes in the roof and then I am annoyed that after raining the inside becomes wet. Is the house at fault for this or the one who created that house? The very idea that an existence is omniscient completely removes free will from the perspective of that omniscient being. I as a human may still perceive my actions as free but from the perspective of an omniscient being it is already decided. It is decided even before being created. Because if that isn't the case then that being wouldn't be omniscient.

[@lukewagner8871]

I guess we’ll have to overlook these verses in the same chapter. Romans 9:16,18-19 KJVS So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? The whole chapter is about the election of God. Romans 9:11 KJVS (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[@littlefishbigmountain]

“And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:10-12‬ What is it talking about here? Esau going to hell and Isaac going to be saved? No. “The elder shall serve the younger.” This is not about the election of individuals to salvation. This is about God’s purpose in election. Election means to choose, right? Just like God chose Abraham to be the father His nation, Israel. “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” ~‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:1-3‬ which the Apostle Peter referenced when talking to his kindred according to the flesh, the Jews, on the day of Pentecost. “Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” ~‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:25-26‬ He is unquestionably talking about Israelites here, according to the flesh, and most definitely not the elect. Salvation is to the Jew first and then the gentile, remember. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” ~‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16‬ and Jesus Himself put it this way, “for salvation is of the Jews.” ~‭‭John‬ ‭4:22‬b Remember, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” ~‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-22‬ Why did God choose Abraham? Because of anything he had done, good or evil? Or that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth?

[@littlefishbigmountain]

But not only did God choose Abraham; He promised him a son and told him that His promise continued for him through the son of promise that He had given him. “And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.” ‭‭ ~Genesis‬ ‭21:9-13‬ God said unto Abraham, “for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.” Notice also, God in no way indicates Ishmael isn’t one of the chosen ones for salvation and he’s going to hell so that His purpose in election might stand. On the contrary, He says, “And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.” (Genesis‬ ‭21:13‬) and then we read, “And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.” ‭‭ ~Genesis‬ ‭21:14-21‬ Ishmael was not chosen by God to be the one of whom His people were called. God did not elect Ishmael. However, did He cast him off and say let him burn in hell? No. God heard his voice (verse 17) made him his own promise of his own nation (verse 18) and God was with him (verse 20). God told Abraham that He would make his son by the bondwoman a nation because he is his seed. (verse 13). This again was for Abraham’s sake, but just because God chose the child of promise that He gave Abraham rather than the child by natural means doesn’t mean God wanted Ishmael to go to hell just because God didn’t choose to elect him. And of these things it’s also written, “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” ‭‭ ~Galatians‬ ‭4:21-31‬ We, like Isaac, are the children of promise, and still to this day children after the flesh persecute children after the Spirit. Does this mean that God wants the children of flesh to perish in hell unconditionally? Where do you see that in Scripture? He says over and over that He desires all flesh to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just like He didn’t leave Ishmael in his sin, God works in all people, yet many resist Him and choose their own ways and sins and live after the flesh. But we who are saved are ourselves only children after the Spirit because of what Jesus described to Nicodemus, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” ‭‭ ~John‬ ‭3:5b-6‬ And when Nicodemus didn’t understand these things, the Lord continued, saying, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” ‭‭ ~John‬ ‭3:14-21‬ Not only was Abraham chosen by God to birth His great nation through whom all the families of the earth would be blessed, and his son Isaac was chosen by God that the great nation would only be through God’s promise. Isaac himself had two sons. We read, “And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger. And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them. And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents. And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.” ‭‭ ~Genesis‬ ‭25:21-28‬ Does God here at all suggest that He will refuse to irresistibly save Esau and will cause him to walk himself straight into hell because that’s what He’s chosen for him? Or that He will irresistibly save Jacob? No. God chose Jacob, the younger, to be served by the elder, even though the culture of that day said that they elder should be inheritor and, and the elder had his father’s favor no less. But God chose Jacob instead. Why? Because He is God and He can choose who He wants when He wants. Said another way, that His purpose according to election might stand.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

Romans 9 begins, “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:1-5‬ Which is very important. We have to read this whole passage with that in mind. And building off of that, the first thing Paul says is, “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:6‬ Now he will explain his meaning, “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: **neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:** but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. **And not only this;** but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:6-13‬ Paul is pointing out that not everyone in Abraham received the promise, but only those of the promised seed Isaac. And not even all of the promised seed of Isaac received the promise they were born into but only through his younger son Jacob (who would later be called Israel, the namesake of God’s chosen nation). Esau was a son of promise through Isaac too, but he was considered as if he wasn’t just like the son of the flesh, Ishmael. In the same way, the nation of Israel is of Abraham, the promised son, and the chosen younger twin who is their namesake [Israel] but they are not all “Israel” who are of “Israel”. Meaning, God once again, just like with Isaac and with Israel himself, did not choose all of their descendants but the those He elected. In other words, being Abraham’s son didn’t make you safe, being his promised son Isaac’s son didn’t make you safe, so too even being the chosen Israel’s son didn’t make you safe. That’s because God doesn’t choose the children of the flesh but of the Spirit. The real chosen seed, mentioned first all the way back in Genesis 3, is Jesus Christ. The only truly safe ones in regards to election are those who are under the headship of Christ, who is of the promised line, not only of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob [Israel] but also of Judah and David. Only those all the way down the line so far as Christ are the final indivisible elect ones, and it’s these elect who receive the fullness of all of God’s promises. Only these in Christ receive the promised land, even though it was promised to many elect before who would not receive it, and the inheritance of everlasting life, while those whom God did not elect, even the lines of rejected peoples such as the lines of Ishmael and Esau, can now find salvation in Jesus Christ. And just like Israel was culled out many, many times throughout their history, God always retained His remnant. They were all equally chosen in Israel, they were all God’s chosen people, but they did not all make the remnant. Many were cut off and/or destroyed (being God’s chosen people wasn’t enough. That didn’t mean they could just go worship idols and still be God’s people), not everyone who professed Christ is actually in Him. But to all those who are actually in Christ and follow Him, who don’t merely call Him Lord with their mouths while their hearts are far from Him, are joint-heirs with Him. And their joint-heirship grants them all that He had, including His everlasting life. “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, And mightest overcome when thou art judged.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭3:1-4‬ ^^This shows how the word of God hasn’t taken none effect. All these illustrations Paul is making about Abraham with Ishmael and Isaac, and Isaac with Esau and Jacob after saying, “not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel: **neither** … … …” we read, “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:14-18‬ Why does Paul ask if we should suggest there is unrighteousness with God? Well, for one Esau was a son of Abraham, and more than that a son of his son of promise! Why should Esau not inherit the promise of Abraham? And how is that different than when the children of Israel don’t inherit the promise? So why then did God make the promise and establish Himself in covenants with Israel? Has the word of God taken none effect? Did His word return to Him void? No. And neither did He lie, and neither was He wrong, and neither did He change His mind, and neither is He an unfit judge. Paul build His argument on what God said to Moses, so let’s look at that. “And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp. And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle. And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight. Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth. And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.” ‭‭ ~Exodus‬ ‭33:7-23‬ Is God talking about who He will irresistibly save here and who He will doom to hell by passing over them? No. He is talking His special relation with His chosen people. And God chooses whoever He wants whenever He wants because He’s God. “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” Esau sought his father’s blessing with bitter tears, but he was rejected. He certainly willed. Nor can anyone work (runneth) to guarantee God will choose them. It is God who will be gracious to whom He will be gracious (could also be translated He will have favor on whom He will have favor) and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

This all has to do with the election of God, but it doesn’t mean that He dooms most people who ever live to hell. We know that those on whom God will have mercy and compassion include those who come to Him through His Son, so why would He then exclude them? Why would He restrict the crop of those from the dead that He made His Son firstfruits of? Then Paul uses pharaoh as a counterexample: “For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:17-18‬ God indeed raised up pharaoh. Consider, “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭13:1‬ and again, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” ~‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:13-14‬ and again, “Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: and he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:” ‭‭ ~Daniel‬ ‭2:20-21‬ And from the mouth of the Lord Himself to Pilate, “Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” ‭‭ ~John‬ ‭19:11‬ So clearly the Sovereign God Almighty did indeed raise up pharaoh, and also of the Sovereign God Almighty we read, “The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, As the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.” ‭‭ ~Proverbs‬ ‭21:1‬ God hardened pharaoh who was already rebellious against Him. He used pharaoh to bring glory to Himself. However, does that mean that He doomed pharaoh to hell before He created the world? Let’s consider for a moment the Israelites. When God told Moses, “I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious (have mercy on whom I will have mercy) and be compassionate to whom I will be compassionate.” Israel had just sinned against the LORD by worshipping the golden calf. God brought judgement on Israel, even killing thousands of them, and the remnant of them received God’s unmerited mercy because He chose to give it. He hardened rebellious pharaoh to accomplish the Passover and the Exodus. In Jesus’ day, the Israelites had become followers of tradition rather than the words and commandments of God. Jesus came to His own, and His own received Him not. God hardened the Israelites in Jesus’ day to accomplish the fulfillment of Passover-Jesus’ crucifixion-and to free His people from their sins and save whosoever would believe in Him. This was by grace, not of works, lest any man should boast, because God will be gracious to whom He will be gracious, and so that the purpose of God according to election might stand. In all of this, never once did the word of God take none effect. Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, anticipates their response. “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:19-24‬ I don’t know about you, but this reminds me of, “The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” ‭‭ ~Proverbs‬ ‭16:4‬ But what does that mean? Notice it doesn’t say He creates the wicked for the day of destruction. It says He makes them. The word “make” there comes from an Old Aramaic word related to the Late Hebrew word for “workman”. So the picture we get is not one of Him creating them just to destroy them, which would contradict what He said about His will for His creation, but of a workman, much like, say, a potter. If He knows they won’t repent, then He has every right to refashion the rebellious clay as He sees fit. As the LORD has said, “The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.” ‭‭ ~Jeremiah‬ ‭18:1-10‬ This is exactly what God was doing to Israel in Jesus’ day, and notice this is also the exact same picture Paul uses in Romans 9, a potter making vessels. This is also seen here, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” ‭‭ ~2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:7-12‬ For what cause shall God send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness? BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. That’s as plain as day. How can that possibly be teaching Calvinism? It says that they had the ability to receive the love of the truth that they might be saved but they believed not the truth, instead having pleasure in unrighteousness so God sent them strong delusion. Also, why would God have to send strong delusion to anyone so that they might be damned if everyone is born totally unable to respond to the gospel? This passage makes no sense with Calvinism.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

Back to Romans 9, he also demonstrates what the Scripture says about gentiles, saying, “even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; And her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; There shall they be called the children of the living God.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:24-26‬ And again concerning Israel, “Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth (the LORD of hosts) had left us a seed, We had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:27-29‬ Here again we see a remnant. “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved”. Going so far as to say, “Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma and been made like unto Gomorrha.” We see that not all of God’s chosen people are saved. “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: And whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ Why hasn’t all Israel attained it? Because they tried to do it as if it was by law? Wait, doesn’t he mean because God refused to irresistibly save them? If you think of this as about Israel and the fathers, which is how Paul starts and what he continues on and on with, it actually makes a lot of sense. Or you could just throw all that out halfway and think he’s talking about how God chose the irresistibly save a few and doom the rest to hell before they were ever born for some reason. Why also would it be written in the next chapter, “I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, And by a foolish nation I will anger you.” ~‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:19‬b What does provoking them to jealousy have to do with it? Doesn’t God have to irresistibly regenerate them? And also, “But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭10:20-21‬ Why would God stand there stretching out His hands all day long to His people hoping them to come to Him in obedience? Why not just regenerate them? Since that’s the literal only way that they could ever change, right? Doesn’t God know that? Or does He just do it to make Himself look merciful or something? And also, how do you explain this? “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” ~Romans 11:17-21 What does it mean that they were part of God’s tree and broken off? “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” ~Romans 11:21-22 So He didn’t break them off because He unchose them? He didn’t actually have a secret replacement elect just waiting to be revealed, planned from eternity past? No, he says they FELL. And he says towards the Romans goodness, IF they continue in His goodness: otherwise they also shalt be cut off. Wait, so the Romans can be grafted in then get cut off again? What about the Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints? This idea, by the way, is also found in, “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” ~‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” ‭‭ ~Romans‬ ‭11:23-24 Is God, like, unregenerating people or something? Is He taking away their gift of faith or their election? And giving it back? What’s up with all this being cut off and grafted back in stuff? “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” ~Romans 11:28 He literally says the Jews are enemies concerning the gospel, but as touching election they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. Let that sink in. Let that sink in.

[@canadiankewldude]

*_Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:_* *_no man cometh unto the Father, but by me._* I was Roman Catholic, thank you Leighton. *_Act _**_4:12_**_ Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved._* *_KJB_*

[@KevElder]

I swore off social media so don't know how else to ask this question. If total inability is true and only the elect, reborn of faith are able to understand truth, then what does that say about the intent of scriptures? Are they only written for Sanctification purposes, because God does all the justification? I have a Calvinist friend who refuses to view the parable of the prodigal son as salvific. He views it as backsliding because any story, parable, etc. in the bible that includes decisions, inclinations, or actions by man can NOT be salvific. This includes all of Jesus' teachings in the gospels. Because I watch your videos, I understand (but completely disagree) with his theology, but had never heard you or anyone else discuss this. Not sure I've asked the question clearly - but have you encountered others who believe the bible is written to only believers, about believers, for believers. If that makes sense???

[@shredhed572]

He is employing the tired old trope of 1 cor. 2:14 "The natural man receiveth not the things of God." They fall back on this verse bc they don't actually READ the bible. To them the bible is like a topical index or like a dictionary where you look up a verse, close the book and move on. Scripture isn't written that way. You need to explain that to him. Check that verse out yourself, and keep reading into the next chapter, where Paul identifies who these "natural" men are. They're carnal >>Christians

[@PhienNguyen1]

The Potter & Clay Analogy He's the Potter; he can use the spoiled lump of clay however he wants to, but it's not God's doing to make them spoiled-that was their own free choice. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?" saith the Lord. "Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel" (Jeremiah 18:5). So, Jeremiah 18-let's look at that, because the biblical side of it, that's my bread and butter. That's where I always want to go. The philosophical side, you know, I'll punch at William Lane Craig's and other top philosophers in the world who want to get into more of the 'how's' of the scripture that the Bible doesn't give us direct 'how's' on, and that's where philosophy oftentimes steps in-which there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying, I'm more trained in theology and biblical exegesis, and so that's what I want to look at. So let's look at Jeremiah 18 and can it be used in the way that Doug is using it here. Let's look at it, bigger on the screen, so that you can see it. The word came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, "Arise, go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce my words to you." So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on a wheel, but the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in his hands. I'm going to mark that right there because that word "spoiled" in his hands is really key here. Did the potter make a mistake? Calvinists, did the potter mess up here? The clay he's making here, it says it was spoiled in his hands. Does it say there that the potter messed up, or does it blame it on the clay? Now, it's the clay-the clay was spoiled in his hands. What does that represent? When a person, if the clay pot is representing people, when the people of Israel begin to go bad, when-and this actually happens, talk to a potter before who actually does-he messaged me when I wrote my book and actually said, yes, there are actually flaws that can happen within the clay itself that's not the potter's fault. Because normally, you would think if there's some error, that's made the potter just messed up. That clay is all the same, and he's saying no, no, clay can actually spoil; it can go bad. And so, that's exactly what this is saying here. So this-he's the potter has an intention, "I'm going to use this particular lump for a good purpose; I'm going to mold this into something for a good purpose," but it spoils in his hand. Now, does the Potter have the right to then remold the spoiled lump of clay into a common vessel to bring about his purpose through this vessel's error? In other words, still accomplish a good purpose through the moral evil or the bad shape or the bad quality of this particular lump of clay? Does the Potter have the right to do that? Exactly, yes, absolutely. This is exactly what Romans 9 discusses with the nation of Israel who has spoiled in his hands, and how they became calloused and hardened like sticks in the mud, like old wineskins that can't take new wine. Self-righteous. He can take that spoiled lump and shape it and mold it to cry out, "Crucify him, bring us Barabbas," so as to bring about his plan of redemption through their evil actions. Can God do that? Of course, he's the Potter; he can use the spoiled lump of clay however he wants to, but it's not God's doing to make them spoiled-that was their own free choice. They did that; they didn't have to go that way-that was their choice. That's our argument. So spelled at the hand of the Potter, he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the Potter to make. So, because they spoiled, because they went evil, it's perfectly within the Potter's right to remake and use that vessel in their evil ways for a good purpose. That's the point. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Am I not able, House of Israel, to deal with you as the Potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, House of Israel. At one moment, I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, tear it down, or destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns"-so this is an if-then statement; it's a contingency. "If that nation of pots turns," that's a responsibility of their pottery. In other words, just because he's using the analogy of potter and clay doesn't mean that the pottery doesn't have responsibility here. "If those pots, if that pottery turns from its evil way, that thing which spoiled it in the first place, I will relent of the remodeling for disaster that I've planned to bring upon it; or at another moment, I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build it up or to plant it; if it does evil in my sight by not obeying my voice, as if the pot has responsibility here again, then I will relent of the good which I said that I would bless it." So now, speak to the men of Judah and he goes on. That's the context of that which he's quoting from. Now let's go on with the video and see what else the application he brings to this is. If we have our feathers ruffled by being compared to a two-dimensional literary figure, then what about being compared to a clay pot? We are greater than Hamlet, certainly, but we are much greater than a clay pot, and God is greater than both a playwright and a potter. And this is one of the arguments I've made several times back when I was a Calvinist. When somebody would use the puppet analogy or the robot analogy, I would say, "Oh well, puppets can be made to look real pretty, robots can be made to look beautiful, avatars can be made to look amazing, even better than what people look like." As a Calvinist, I said, God compares us to mud, which is why I use it. Mud, and so, hey, you want to complain if you want to use pottery and clay pots and mud and you would rather make ourselves-God's analogy makes man much worse than even your analogy does. That's how I handled people who would use robots and puppets in response to me, where a lot of people today will try to denounce or separate themselves from those analogies, instead of just embracing it, which is exactly what Doug seems to be doing here. He's like, "Hey, if you're going to object to being compared to a two-dimensional figure in a play, then how dare you because God compared us to mud, and so you shouldn't even object at all." But again, is it carrying the analogy too far, and is it supposedly comparing us deterministically to pots in the same way? In other words, that you have no more control over your decisions and your choices than ultimately a pot has over its shape and its use. This is basically the application that people like Doug are bringing to Romans 9 and other texts like in Jeremiah. Is that ultimately a pot has no control over its shape and its use, no more so than you have control over your decisions and actions in the hand of the Creator God. And you just have to ask yourself, is that the proper application of the use of the analogy in Scripture? I say it's not, based upon the actual reading of the Scripture, an exegesis of the Scripture, giving us contingencies: "If the clay pots do this, I will relent in what I plan for its shape, and if you do this, then I will do this." In fact, I forgot to read this, but Paul brings that same analogy in another text, Second Timothy chapter 2 verse 20. In a large house, there are not only gold and silver implements but also implements of wood and earthenware, clay pots-that's what earthenware is. Some are for honor, some are for dishonor. Does that sound familiar? Sounds like the exact same analogy he uses in Romans 9. Some pots are for honor, some for dishonor. But, you know, clay pots have no choice as to which one they'll be used for, right? They have no real responsibility, right? Therefore, Paul says in verse 21, "If anyone," talking about a person who's being compared to earthenware, "if any earthenware cleanses himself from these things..." What's cleansing himself mean? Exactly what Jeremiah 18 says: turn from the evil you did, obey me, turn from evil, repent. "Anyone who cleanses himself from these things, he will be an implement for honor." In other words, the Potter will decide how he shapes and uses the pot depending on the pot's reaction and response and obedience and faith and repentance. That's the application of the Scripture; that's exegesis, not determinism read over the Scripture and just assuming that we have no more control over our decisions and choices and actions and repentance than a clay pot has over its shape and use in the hand of a Potter. Read the analogy for how it's actually applied in the Scripture: "If anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be an implement for honor, sanctified, useful to the master, prepared for good work." So, what is the responsibility of the clay pot? To repent, humble yourself so as to be lifted up, to be used for honor, which is repeated in almost every single book of the Bible, over and over again, calling ourselves to humble ourselves, to repent, to throw ourselves at the mercy, to believe in God, to trust in Him, and then we will be used for honor.

[@bock1965]

Question. When we read a passage from the Bible that in its time was specifically meant for a specific group or individual are we not right to apply principles we see at work in that message to our own lives today? Certainly we can look at Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac and draw from it the truth that God is faithful to us His children and that we should be like Abraham and trust God no matter the cost. Right? So if that is true then why can we not look at the potter as referenced by Paul and draw a great truth from this verse. 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?. That being the truth that God has absolute authority to do with us as he pleases. I do not believe he creates certain people with no hope of salvation because they care completely unable to respond to Him. But ! IF he did do that we would have no place to stand against Him !!!!! Had God chosen to not make promises to and covenants with man but chose instead to kill all men when one of them did the smallest of sins we would have nothing to say , no position from which to argue. If then God has all authority to what ever he wishes with us then the very worst you can say about Calvinists is that it does not matter if they are right because.... God has all authority to make his plans any way he wishes. The whole thrust against Calvinists as put forth by Provisionists has its appeal in the anthropomorphizing of God ! When we say " it would be unfair of God" or " the god of Calvinism is a monster" The attempt is to use emotions against Calvinists by causing people to think bad things about the Calvinist "god" It is the same thing Democrats do at election time when they accuse Republicans of trying to get rid of social security. It is a twisting of the truth at best , at worst a flat out lie.

[@dw6528]

DW: One does not have to think bad things about Calvin's god. All one need do is read John Calvin - and historical Calvinism. Calvinism acquires two key components from Gnosticism and NeoPlatonism 1) DUALISM 2) DETERMINISM The DUALISM within Calvinism is why we observe so many things which appear in the form of Antithetical (good-evil) pairs. Augustine explains: -quote because this orderly arrangement maintains the *harmony of the universe* by this very *contrast* it comes about that *evil things must need be* In this way, the *beauty* of all things is in a manner configured, as it were, *from antitheses* , that is, from opposites: this is pleasing to us even in discourse”. (ord 1.7.19) So Calvinism's DUALISM makes it distinct and stand apart from its alternatives. Calvin's god - is thus a deity of "Good-Evil" He creates the vast majority of his creatures - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. He creates a large percentage of believers as CHAFF - whom he divinely deceives with a FALSE SENSE of salvation - and who will eventually wake up in the lake of fire and realize that was what they were created for. Calvinism all by itself - portrays bad things about its god. NON-Calvinists simply acknowledge what Calvinism portrays about its god.

[@chaddonal4331]

⁠@@dw6528 wow, that is quite a revealing quote from Augustine! Knowing that Augustine went through three periods of thought, do you know which era he wrote that which you have quoted? Also, do you have evidence of Calvin quoting and relying upon Augustine’s dualism as blatant as that particular quote?

[@bock1965]

@@dw6528 Would I be correct if I said that The god of Calvinism is essentially the same as the god of Islam or or the gods of the Hidus or the gods of countless other false religions? If so it would and interesting comparison to know how many people have come to Christ as a result of the preaching of those other gods versus the preaching of Calvinists. Many Many people have come to Jesus through the preaching of Calvinists and other reformers through the years vs zero from the preaching of all the others combined through out all of history. Here is a question / thought. Is it not true that God knows all things that have happened or ever will happen , even the whereabouts of a spec of dust? Is it not true that knowing the unfolding of all events past and future , including the final out come for the speck of dust, that God decided to allow all those things to be? He thus determined by nature of allowance that indeed these are the things that will come to pass? He did not cause or script all those things to happen. He allowed them unfold naturally. God foresaw who was going to believe. He then chose them to be the Elect. He did not choose those to be elect who were never going to believe. It is true in my opinion that God did not create people for the purpose of sending them to hell. It is also true that he allowed each person who would eventually go to hell to be formed by the process he created with the full knowledge those persons would go to hell. Each of those persons will have the opportunity to partake of the Savior's blood but will choose not to. You are going to be in a place tonight. It could be any place depending on circumstances. You do not know that place right now. Tonight when you are in that place it may or may not be where you thought you were going to be. But it will be very clear the pattern you followed to get to that place. We can not see the future as if it were in the past or as if it has already happened. God does though. From his perspective the place you will be tonight is already set in stone. He has already determined by allowance that that is the place you will be. In essence he already heard tomorrow's news yesterday. You are going by free choice to the place he has already allowed you to be. I rest in the fact that God has my future firmly in his grasp. I was chosen as were you to be in the elect before time began. ...

[@dw6528]

@@bock1965 Chris Clark: Would I be correct if I said that The god of Calvinism is essentially the same as the god of Islam or or the gods of the Hidus or the gods of countless other false religions? Well - the Islam religion also is founded on Theological Determinism. So there is that similarity to Calvinism. But I don't know anyone who would say they are the same god. Chris Clark: Many Many people have come to Jesus through the preaching of Calvinists DW: Actually - if you ask Calvinists for their testimony - I think you will find - as others have - that the vast majority of Calvinists were already Christian believers before adopting Calvinism. And that makes perfect sense - when we realize the Calvinist is internally going to look at a non-believer and consider a strong possibility that that person is a non-believer by infallible decree - because the doctrine stipulates WHATSOEVER comes to pass is by divine decree. It makes perfect sense that evangelism in Calvinism will be almost totally focused on drawing NON-Calvinist believers into Calvinism - because those people are already assumed to be elect. Chris Clark: He has already determined by *allowance* that that is the place you will be. DW: There are a number of words in Calvinism which have cloaked or equivocal and misleading meanings. And "Permission" or "Allow" are two of them. John Calvin -quote The creatures…are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3) Thus - *NOTHING* is "Permitted" or "Allowed" to happen - except that which he has knowingly and willingly decreed. Thus in Calvinism: 1) What is CAUSED (by infallible decree) is Permitted 2) What is NOT CAUSED is NOT permitted. If it is decreed that you will perform SIN_X at TIME-T - then: 1) You performing SIN_X at TIME-T is permitted 2) You NOT Performing SIN_X at TIME-T is NOT permitted. Adam was granted "Freedom" to eat the fruit - because eating the fruit was granted existence by an infallible decree Adam was NOT granted "Freedom" to NOT eat the fruit - because NOT eating the fruit was NOT granted existence by an infallible decree. Additionally - Adam NOT eating the fruit - would countervail and falsify the decree. And the creation is never granted "Permission" or "Freedom" to countervail or falsify an infallible decree.

[@dw6528]

@@chaddonal4331 DW: Hmmm! That's a good question! However - Augustine gets that from both Gnosticism and NeoPlatonism. And if you google Augustine and NeoPlatonism - you will find Augustine is considered the primary conduit through which NeoPlatonism is historically mixed with Christian doctrine. Augustine corresponded by letter to a close friend Nebridius, who praises how Augustine’s letters: “speak of Christ, Plato and Plotinus” Plotinus was Augustine's mentor in NeoPlatonism. Plotinus essentially turned certain doctrines of Plato into religious form. It is said that Augustine remained an avid follower of Plotinus all of his life - and on his death-bed recited works of Plotinus. This would not have been unusual in that day - as in the Catholic church many priests and bishops considered Plato - the great master of the church. The writings of Plato were used to rightly understand scripture.

[@Sam-fp8zm]

Yeh. The statue Daniel saw had feet of iron, and clay then the stone broke it. So OT Israelites are called clay many times in the bible so the feet were the Israelites+ the Romans? Whatever the feet were the stone- Jesus- broke it so that whole prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus time.

[@shredhed572]

Rome, (iron) was still the dominant power in Jesus' day Also Israel was still a nation

[@Sam-fp8zm]

@@shredhed572 ◄ Matthew 21:44 ► Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” genesis 49 24 But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel), Psalm 118:15-27 Jesus is 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone. ' Salvation is found in no one else. It finished at Jesus

[@garytakvorian6204]

Simply put, God "animates" the clay in His analogical use. Good call!

[@mikelyons2831]

👿 C'mon Flowers, your exegetng again. How am I supposed to use my favorite go-to ever since the Garden of "Hath God indeed said" to thwart the minds of the simple when you keep quoting & expounding scripture in context??

[@SantaFe19484]

This Calvinistic argument has been smashed to pieces like a pot that fell on the floor.

[@johnknight3529]

Sometimes it seems like God just has a problem getting humans to take Him seriously . . Like He's saying; Look, I made you, I know how what is good for you and what harms you, honest. I realize it doesn't seem fair at first glance that I didn't make you unable to mess yourself up, but I'm really not interested in spending eternity with billions of freaking robots . . Would you be? ; )

[@christendumb9371]

And some are for honor ..and others for dishonor... Does that mean some were predestined for honor and some are predestined for dishonor?

[@gk.4102]

_"Does that mean some were predestined for honor and some are predestined for dishonor?"_ Yes, but not unconditionally. Like demonstrated in the video, God is at liberty to change the purpose of a clay depending on the clay's choices and actions.

[@user-im9ov9ud7m]

Calvinizer universe of god swirls around them. God saved them. They did not have to do anything except "be". They bring nothing to Jesus, and can bring no one else to Jesus.

[@leonardu6094]

The headache one gets from listening to Calvinists lol. How can anyone endorse such incoherent nonsense?

[@leonardu6094]

@@RuminantHairdo Ah, i take it you're an offended calvinist? lol. What is incoherent about what Flowers says? be specific.

[@nikao7751]

You are not only putting nails in the coffin of Calvinism, but you're welding it shut, now let's get the darn thing burried 😉

[@gabrielteo3636]

The problem is the potter created the clay knowing it would spoil and still created it. God intended the clay to spoil. You don't create something you know will spoil unless you intend it to spoil. How about this...the potter doesn't create the clay he knows will spoil? Free will doesn't matter. Don't create the clay that will spoil.

[@leonardu6094]

//God intended the clay to spoil. You don't create something you know will spoil unless you intend it to spoil. // How does this refute anything he said? Did he ever claim God didn'y know you will sin befor ehe created you? That's not the point being debated here.

[@gabrielteo3636]

@@leonardu6094 "Did he ever claim God didn'y know you will sin befor ehe created you? That's not the point being debated here." I was not referencing "sinning" as "spoiling". I was referencing suffering "eternal torment" as spoiling. God intentionally creates specific people to torment forever. If you are ok with that, then no problem.

[@leonardu6094]

@@gabrielteo3636 But this video did not discuss anything related to hell & eternal torment, nor did i at any point mention my views on that topic. How is that relevant at all to this video?

[@seekingtheoncesaved2834]

@@leonardu6094 flowers believes God intended for the clay to spoil?

[@leonardu6094]

@@seekingtheoncesaved2834 Just so we're caught up; The clay in that analogy represents humans and a spoiled clay is specifcally referring to a human who has *freely* rejected God ad Go, in his, sovereingty, using the spoiled clay's rebellion for his purposes nonetheless. The question of whether God _intended_ for the clay to spoil is a misguided one because the text is NOT concerned with whether God wanted the clay to spoil or not, but rather *THAT* God uses the clay as it is now for his purposes.

[@gabrielgarcia367]

It wasn’t till later in the Bible did God say he hardened Pharoah’s heart. He doesn’t HAVE to say it when he’s doing it. That’s why he’s sovereign and he predestined everything. He can reveal His answers and reasonings when he wants to. Romans 9:17-20 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [o]throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, [p]you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

[@shredhed572]

The person questioning Paul is a Jew. Chs 2 through 11 is a running conversation between Paul and this other person, identified as "a jew" in ch 2. This will unlock Romans to you if you'll read it with this in mind.

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

You’re explanation might not be that clear. In this situation, the potter isn’t simply a molder, but the creator of the clay as well. A creator who had the option of making clay which does not spoil or knew exactly when it will spoil. Therefore Calvinist determinist can easily interpret it their way as well.

[@faelor03]

I disagree. Your assumption is that God could've made Adam and Eve perfect. That's impossible. Only God is perfect. Anything else besides God can spoil. Even the angels. Remember what happened to Satan? 😁 Jeremiah clearly teaches contingency here which you are ignoring.

[@Richard_Rz]

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR.... unless you have Deterministic lenses on. God decreed He would make free willed creatures as we see around us and in scripture. We can actually choose to do things or not as the uncaused source of the choice.

[@Drspeiser]

I mean, if Keanu Reeves is your Jesus, there's not gonna be much clear to you about anything in God's kingdom... 🤷‍♂️

[@shepherd7744]

Good explanation Frank, I agree, but to add on, I would argue that all start out being in a good condition, it is the free choices of man that cause the spoiling, just as the scripture laid out by Leighton. If the clay continues to CHOOSE evil and they start to harden themselves/clay, God will destroy them, if the clay/ person submits, remains soft and pliable to the potters hand by faith and obedience, the Potter will not destroy them. I've never been able to understand why it is so incredibly hard for the calvinist to simply admit that God in His Sovereignty, could create man with a libertarian free will ( which is the ONLY scenario that real love or real responsibility for sin can philosophically exist. It does not exist in determinism, there can definitely be some form of a relationship, but you CANNOT call it love as that which is defined in scripture, or real culpability for ones choices) and that by doing so, man is the reason for ALL the pain, suffering and sin in the world, but also true reciprocal love between Creator and creation. It makes sense according to the straight reading of scripture and checks every block philosophically also. It doesn't twist, contort, and bend the scripture and God's character into this irrational contradiction on top of contradiction, and have the necessity of redefining so many regular definitions for words, different kinds of love, different kinds of free will, different kinds of God's will, it simply an empty doctrine with so much baggage it must be exhausting to carry it around and attempt to defend it and sound half way rational when doing so, I'm yet to find one that sounds consistently rational. Only their own rabied desire to defend the belief system...im not trying to be mean, but until any of us,lay completely down a belief for a moment to consider the fact that we may be wrong, we never allow the Holy Spirit to lead us in truth, if you ALREADY know the truth, what can the Holy Spirit possibly lead you in, it's heartbreaking....

[@JesusHasRisen1]

@@faelor03 Your comment gave me pause. That same Jeremiah said: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.' Can the Lord create perfection? It would seem so here, by His own words. While a third of the angels rebelled in iniquity, the Bible still seems to indicate that 2/3's have not, so therefore...they have NOT sinned. Are they perfect in their obedience? Slightly off-topic, but none-the-less worthy of contemplation...

[@Myrdden71]

Context Kills Calvinism.

[@a.k.7840]

Or as I like to say, "Context is king and the castle of calvinism lacks a monarch."

[@SurrenderContinuallyToHisWill]

@@a.k.7840 Now THAT should be put on a t-shirt.

[@13kimosabi13]

Calvinists and Provisionists => both see the same 3% going to heaven => and 97% going to hell to be tormented for all eternity. Both have a sad and non-realistic view of God and HIS love for mankind. Trading one messed up box to live in another one makes no sense. Our GOD is much more loving, powerful and intelligent than either position gives credit. Start with 2 Tim 2:15 kjv => and do as it instructs => and one day you might begin to see it. If you keep taking this man’s word for it => or any man => you likely won’t!

[@13kimosabi13]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 just few thoughts that may help….. 1. If you learn to Rightly Divide => you’ll see that Matthew is not written TO YOU……NOT THE BOC. 2. The NARROW GATE is very narrow => it’s JESUS. 3. No one => and GOD means NO ONE gets in on their own merit. 4. Everyone can get in thru Jesus……EVERYONE ! 5. If the 1st Adam was able to doom everyone to death and sin => and the 2nd Adam can only save 3% => which Adam is more powerful ? 6. Why wouldn’t Satan want Jesus crucified if that was the case ? God could have been up front with that plan and Satan would have said => where do I sign ! Let’s get it done !! 7. Using scripture as you do => that’s not meant for now => and taken out of context => only leads to chaos and confusion.

[@shredhed572]

I'm sorry you are offended that a small number of ppl (remnant) will recieve Christ compared to all of humanity. Dems da breaks kid.

[@13kimosabi13]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 ok=> I hope this clears up your misunderstanding…… 1. Is scripture about the Garden of Eden to you ? No, it’s for you to understand what happened but it’s NOT TO YOU ! 2. Have you ever sacrificed an animal for your sin ? Why not ? It’s scripture, correct ? 3. Have you sold all to follow Jesus ? Why not ? Why weren’t you killed like Ananias and Sapphira ? I can do hundreds more but the TRUTH IS => all scripture is profitable for the things the Bible mentions => in the age and dispensation etc it was intended. And many things are TRUE in every age => like rainbows! But again, since you don’t do as 2 Tim 2:15 kjv instructs => you must live with the chaos and confusion that comes from ignoring it! It’s sad so much of Christendom (like yourself) think they believe the ignorant stuff they spew out on the regular but instead of doing what is necessary => they stick with what they’ve been taught. Study the word => so you won’t have to be so ashamed ! For now, you look like a young kid trying to wield a grown man’s sword => you just look foolish and lots of people including yourself will/may get hurt.

[@13kimosabi13]

@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 Me telling you everything IS NOT the same as you studying now is it! That doesn’t mean I won’t help you a bit => Jesus came to the Jews (read Matthew 15:24) HE came to fulfill prophecy. HE came as the 2nd Adam to do what the 1st Adam could not do. HE came to fulfill The Law and the Sacrificial System HE came to bring the Kingdom because HE is the King. We weren’t part of that ! Read the first 2 chapters of Ephesians Pay close attention to Ephesians 2:11-12 and all of CHAPTER 3.

[@13kimosabi13]

@@shredhed572 I’m more offended that you make God out to be so weak, so lacking in planning and knowledge and especially so unloving => it’s not the GOD of the Bible at all => but it is normal for the majority of Christendom that doesn’t study the WORD ! When there’s so many more folks in a heaven than you ever expected => don’t be offended just give GOD THE GLORY => HE deserves it….and so much more !

[@joshualeibrant3443]

In my discussion with William Lane Craig he was very ignorant vasicilating between Jesus being the Trinity (whom he sees as a singular He at times with three manifestations and three He's at other times which he confuses as three parts of the super "he", and Jesus being a man who pays this Trinity who said "all flesh belongs to me" and "the earth is the Lord's and all the fullness there of. I still haven't gotten an answer as to how or why GOD could be "paid" anything He did not already own due to the fact that He owns all existent things since there is only one Creator of all that exists. WLC is a fool who believes in square circles. I cannot tolerate his stupidity any more

[@ttff-bd2yf]

When did this conversation occur? Also im pretty sure WLC does not believe in modalism.

[@joshualeibrant3443]

@@ttff-bd2yf a few months back. WLC is a penal substitution believer in spite of the many places in scripture where change of custody language is used to describe the "turning over" of Christ to be murdered by the same bastard angel that murdered Adam, (John 8 44). He also is a "neo-appolinarian" who believes that Christ had no rational human intellect. Remember the old commercial where they showed scrambled eggs in the frying pan where the statement is made "this is your brain on drugs"? Well WLC is that sort of mental soup of heretical ping pong balls. All Athanasian Creedal Trinitarians are heretics according to the Nicean Creed..

[@joshualeibrant3443]

@@ttff-bd2yf and WLC believes in a tripersonal god he refers to as "He" which is sorta like believing in a human person with a multiple personality disorder or a demoniac who says "our name is Legion for we are many"

[@readyplayer1900]

Calvinism is a theological gateway drug to nihilism.