The Power Gamer - RPG Philosophy

[@morganpetros9635]

I kinda prefer the term "optimizer," if I'm being completely honest, because *THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG* with optimizing your character for the role you want to play.

[@jesternario]

One of my oldest friends is a power gamer and rules lawyer. However, he is one of the good ones. He understands the rules and shares that knowledge. He plays the game to have fun, and does everything to keep us all honest. He even understands that when the GM makes a ruling, that is the way the game is going to be run from that point going, though he will bring up the actual rule if there is one. However, if the GM says "this is how we're running it," he just says Okay and that's that.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Making a very effective character, knowing the rules, playing according to the rules? All good things. Such players become a problem when they negatively impact the play of others, otherwise they can be a great asset. - I'm running a Rolemaster sci-fi game right now, and one of my players knows the rules better than I do. He could be a jerk about it, he could keep that knowledge to himself to make his character "more awesome", but he doesn't. He uses his knowledge of the rules to help us all to play a more consistent and enjoyable game.

[@danacoleman4007]

I call baloney! That is not an actual person.

[@jesternario]

😄@@danacoleman4007

[@SymmetricalDocking]

The worst type of possible Rules Lawyer is the GM. The New York PFS had our Vice Captain that way, RAW but only when he wanted to punish a player. "You can't slide down the rope, there are no rules for sliding down the rope so you have to spend several turns climbing down it."

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

​@@SymmetricalDockingGM or no you're really talking about a particular kind of Rules Lawyer. Those are the type to only insist on the rules when it provides a benefit to themselves.

[@si1verg3cko]

I remember when I watched a video by Dimension 20 in one of their Contested Roll videos where they argued whether min maxers were good or bad. The person that was arguing in favor more or less "won" the debate when they made a statement along the lines of why would I punish my players for learning the game.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Haven't seen that one, but I 100% agree with it.

[@danielrowan4716]

I, for one, want to hear more about those Death Frogs.

[@rynowatcher]

Death Slaads?

[@danielrowan4716]

Now you’re talking

[@TheRyujinLP]

I, for one, welcome our new Death Frog overlords.

[@Syaniiti]

Seth really needs a "would you like to know more?" popup that you could click and go on a 15 video journey just to finally think to yourself "why am I watching a video about the marriage laws of Alabamax IIb?"

[@otakuofmine]

maybe the Souls variety

[@Maehedrose]

The power gamers in my group are also the best roleplayers. Yes, they min-max their characters and strive for the best bonuses and most powerful stuff but they are also highly engaged with the roleplay and will always strive to work with the story to the benefit of everyone. Thankfully, none of them are murder hobos, I chased that behavior from my table a long time ago.

[@SwiftJustice]

You've got Power _Players_

[@elhoteldeloserrantes5056]

Same in My table, i'm know as the dm that helps his players yo make strong characters (they are gonna need them...)

[@kdolo1887]

as if people in real life don't want to be the best at anything. If this weren't the case, you wouldn't have power gamers in the first place.

[@bigblue344]

Limiting your character actions is often a good way to keep power gaming in check, like accepting an obvious scam if it presents an interesting situation.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

That is my experience as well. Most people who really dig into the system get excited by building a strong character and by playing out a cool personality

[@armorguy1108]

Had not put together concept of the Power Coward but, daaaaaaaaaaaaang, that hit this GMs nerve. The last couple of times I really hated GMing I now realize it was due to a Power Coward... Great video, Seth. Look forward to the next one.

[@rynowatcher]

Yeah, adding that to my terminology.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

I also fear Skalexian (sp?) Death Frogs. No clue what they are, but any frogs that earn the word "Death" as part of their name? I'm out.

[@kylekillgannon]

I had a buddy like this years ago. We called it the "Bully" archetype. Because they were the baddest ass ever around goblins but the minute their one trick didn't work they called it quits

[@elhoteldeloserrantes5056]

Personally i diferenciate power gamers and munchkins Power gamer: wants to make a powerfull character followin the rules. Munchkin: wants to break the game, a thing that is actually a problem.

[@bigblue344]

I had a munchkin player before who didn't read or know the rules. He came up with this complicated build and strategy for his character that was actually just more inefficient if he just played the character straight.

[@AlteredNova04]

This. Power gamers are honest and respect the game rules. If the game is genuinely poorly balanced, they avoid using obvious exploits and try to optimize within the "spirit" of what the designers intended. Munchkins will intentionally misinterpret game rules to create obviously unintended exploits, and will beg to be allowed to use overpowered homebrew. Munchkins are also way more likely to outright cheat and to act like a "power coward."

[@josemariapena9741]

I think that "munchkinism" is the result of deficient game mechanics (nothing is perfect, anyway) and unattended or neglected supervision during character creation. Incoherent builds and difficult to justify character descriptions are red flags for this. Letting the DM to have the last word could suffice, however there is the extreme of being too restrictive and not letting the players to propose new character concepts. The common sense and the harmony with the rest of the party should be the golden rule.

[@macoppy6571]

Munchkin: short person, rules abusing power gamer, card game

[@0x777]

@@josemariapena9741"munchkinism" is a result of a defective game group. The WoD system (my preferred one) is very freeform and it's as trivial to create an overpowered character as it is to create a useless gimp. What matters is that your group does not allow either of them to exist. Yes, that's not just the GMs job, that's a group effort. Because else, it's munchkin vs GM, one opinion against another. That way, it becomes obvious to the munchkin that NOBODY wants to play with that.

[@GM_Darius]

Power Coward. Gods, that reminds me of a player during Pathfinder 1E. Super specialized into a Paladin with high as hell AC and saves. Full plate, tower shield, defender sword, the works. We're talking, until the party was roughly level 10, most enemies could not hit him with anything besides a Natural 20. Then just one random enemy was able to hit him on a die roll of like 14 once for maybe 10ish damage and then suddenly "Holy crap, I gotta go, this guy's too dangerous!" while clearly forgetting about his Cure spells and Lay on Hands...

[@SwiftJustice]

Least Valiant Paladin ever

[@Arcon1ous]

I always have that problem with the other players in my group when I'm playing a very powerful character, I start taking damage and start getting excited about the fight, and suddenly everyone else is freaking out that I've taken a good chunk of my health bar when I'm loaded with ways to heal and have hurt him way more than they hurt me. Its like, calm down guys, I'll be fine, and even if I'm not, we can do revives or I can make another character, it'll be okay.

[@rikusauske]

Almost like he forgot that he has other abilities besides his ac lol

[@NecromancyForKids]

​@rikusauske Sadly, in Pathfinder 1e, unless you use homebrew, you usually have barely anything else as a tanky character. That doesn't excuse their actions, though.

[@thorinpalladino2826]

@@NecromancyForKids Bah! My raging barbarian laughs at your paladin's pathetic AC.

[@TheEndKing]

Reading people's stories of dealing with a Power Coward in their group, is always so funny. Like three months into a campaign they'll take damage for the first time, and start freaking out at the table.

[@DualKeys]

"Oh, I'm in pain! I think this is what pain feels like!"

[@benkaes3657]

Had one of those in a still ongoing D&D campaign, before he got booted for being a prick to the host's family. He was fine versus goblins and other minor enemies because they barely hurt him, but once he spent 5 full minutes whining about taking damage from a trap because he failed a Dex save! He was the reason I'm a rules lawyer in that campaign, because I can usually flip to whatever rule he was whining about before our GM has finished paraphrasing it.

[@christopherjohnson7133]

We had a power coward many years ago. However, in our case, I must admit, we found him very amusing at times, which was unintentional on his part.

[@lucas23453]

I once had my most evil encounter. Banshee and a Wisp. Only one player failed their save, they accused me of unfairness and targeting them, and then later ragequit the game.@@benkaes3657

[@feral_orc]

A melee fighter who insisted on bringing their mount everywhere with them, underground dungeons and tombs included. Only person in the party with a shield/any sort of armour. Of course 90% of the time they sat at the back of the group so their mount couldn't get in other people's way. If there was anything he considered dangerous (not that he had any context to judge that) he would just refuse to enter melee and stay at range with arrows, which he sucked at because of his stats. The only person in our group that spent less time fighting was a spellcaster. This would be fine if it hadn't gone on for over a year, eventually we just had to make plans for fights as if he wasn't even there. This guy also actively tried to derail the campaign the session before we finished it, where he introduced a new fact about his character that prevented them from continuing on their journey, which hadn't been established in RP or with the GM beforehand. Sometimes he treated the game like he was in the matrix and he'd die irl too, but he also can't help but metagame and break immersion if it suits him.

[@Pit_Wizard]

I was halfway through a comment about how modern games can hardly even BE min-maxed when you mentioned it. I definitely agree. Modern gamers who hate min-maxing should have seen the shenanigans we got up to in D&D 3.5e or Shadowrun 5e.

[@sergentharker7182]

Seriously, a guy putting his highest attributes to the things he wants to be good at is nothing compared to the webs of nonsense from 3.5 that made it into a nightmare after a few years.

[@NathanPatrickLane]

Sentinel + Polearm Master comes up a lot, but even that build falls apart as soon as you introduce multiple combatants or ranged attacks.

[@gmradio2436]

Level 1, +50 to disguise and bluff. That was Pathfinder. At around the same bonus you could remove limbs with medicine while the vict... patient sleeps. Fun times.

[@The_Murder_Party]

@@gmradio2436hold on- how’d you get there!? 22 dex (a stretch, but possible) a skill rank make it a class skill, small (+4) gives you +10, I guess vanish gets you to +50 while standing still for a few rounds? Otherwise skill focus only gets you to +13- what am I missing here XD a racial bonus or two, but that only gets you +2/4 at max

[@The_Murder_Party]

*it gives you +14, not+10, please add 4 to all my maths :)

[@MrfnordTim]

I have no problem when players take advantage of the rules, but it's best when they help the other players take advantage of the rules too. Instead of just asking if *you're* close enough to get the bonus die, ask if the guy behind the car is close enough.

[@Seihk]

I mean this as the highest version of compliment: I literally see Dweebles as an entirely different person than you, Seth. I always have. It's just really dawned on me how much I separate you from him in the skits you write. A+

[@tigercrush2253]

Genuinely took me a skit or two to realize he was playing all the roles. Just outstanding.

[@dubuyajay9964]

I love Dweebles though. I want to give him a hug. :(

[@IMarcaI]

This may be my years of wargaming speaking. In my opinion the difference between optimizing and powergaming happens at the inception. Did you choose your character/class/profession because you had an idea or it sounded fun and now you try to make the best version of that. Or did you choose it because you found a way to abuse the rules/a weird loophole and this was the optimal way to exploit that.

[@joenapalm4841]

Yeah I can relate to this. Unabashed power gamer but I'm usually trying to optimize the suboptimal because it's interesting. The Polearm Master guy is a different animal entirely

[@vernandsockey8611]

This. I know a guy who ALWAYS tries to take the Fey-Touched Feat just so he can get Misty Step, but he refuses to give any reason for it in his backstory. Like, dude, all I'm asking is that you give me a reason for your character to have this!

[@ChickVanCluck]

@@vernandsockey8611Yes, wanting a bonus action teleport requires a page in a character's backstory.

[@AdamLeisemann]

I get that. I often worry that I might be a power gamer because when I'm given the slightest leeway, I go for weird ideas (while trying to be appropriate for the game) that just happen to be fairly powerful in premise, even if I can't optimize the rules exactly to fit the vision I have in mind right away (That's what XP is for). Granted, that's generally easier in free-build RPGs like Fantasy Hero than in class-and-level games like Pathfinder. But it's just so fun to sometimes go "out there" as long as you still fit the theme of the game.

[@philmcdonald3322]

@@vernandsockey8611 Hate to hear that, one of my favourite recent characters I played was fey-touched for minmaxing reasons, but since I made it a big part of his backstory I had a great time with a paranoid lunatic blaming everything bad that happened on "THE FAE!"

[@ljmiller96]

I like to have an effective character, have optimized on occasion, and get called a power gamer for it, but I enjoy the roleplay aspect and investigation parts of these wonderful and silly games we play as much as combat. I also like to have optimizers in the games I run because that way I know I don't have to work so hard to avoid a TPK. Preventing TPKs should really be the players' job, so it takes a weight off the GM when they can trust the players to not set themselves up for disaster.

[@bigblue344]

That's the reason why I ended up power gaming in the first place, to protect the other players.

[@Syaniiti]

I personally don't think that having a character capable of doing their job is "power gaming". That's hiring on merit.

[@Daemonworks]

I also love to have an effective character, ideally a fantastically effective one... but I don't really care for combat in most games, so I've moved to systems where combat's not central. Now I get to make characters that have one unusual speciality that I can make incredibly helpful, and then most use the character to facilitate whatever other players have going on. Investigation, negotiation, craftsmanship, a particular field of research, etc. I'm currently playing a special effects artist in a modern game. It's great. :)

[@wulmer8257]

I mean, dosent the gm just adust the power of the enemies to suit the players directly, if the players have an efective power of 10 due to optemising their characters, aret the gm just gona make the enemies have an efective power of 10, while if the players had an effective power of say 7 due to not opemising their characters, would just the gm make the enemies have an efective power of 7?

[@Syaniiti]

@@wulmer8257 The villains have to be competent otherwise there's no reason to play the campaign. And the power of the villains should match on- and off-screen. This means that the villain must have a minimum level of "efective power" as you put it and cannot be lowered down to the level of the most incompetent PC. If the city guard / police / average joe is more competent and capable than the PC then the PC does not have a job, the adventure gets solved without them. And if the average joe gets powered down to the level of incompetent PCs then there's no world for the players to adventure in. Hire on merit, not on who happened to fill the character sheet.

[@nicklarocco4178]

Sort of related story. I'm playing the opposite of a power coward in my Warhammer FRP game. I didn't plan on power gaming a super strong warrior, but through a combination of a bunch of lucky mutations, and a concerted effort by my party to make me stronger my character, a mutant orc named Lug (formerly Ludwig, a human. Long story), is a total badass. But he doesn't lower himself to fight lowly jobbers. No when the cultists with their knives break in, Lug puts up his feet and tells the party "Don't worry, you got this." But then when the cultist summon a greater daemon Lug cracks his knuckles and says "Don't worry, I got this." It's really fun to play this ultimate badass as someone who only cares about the challenge, who doesn't waste his time with weaklings, and who ultimately protects the party from the biggest threats because he's the best equipped to do so.

[@viniciussardenberg706]

that system has downright become my favourite had lots of fun with it

[@johnniewoodard648]

Way back when I still played Tabletop RPGs, I was rolling up a new character while BSing with the GM. He was using a new (at the time) set of tables of advantages/disadvantages. The number of times you rolled on each table was determined by a dice roll. I rolled a 1 for advantage and a 6 for disadvantage. After adding up and subtracting from My stats, and putting down ever phobia this character had....I flat out told the GM that this guy would NEVER even leave the village much less go adventuring, as he was afraid of EVERYTHING. He laughed at me and asked to see the character sheet...after looking over the Newly named "Barney Fife" or "Don Knotts" I could not decide which. The Gm handed me a new character sheet. Like I told him some people would NEVER be the adventuring type.

[@RockOfLions]

The last time I had a power gamer at my table we were playing a game that gave extra rewards for putting in the killing blow. This guy would hold back his attack or minimize his damage so that the other characters would do almost but not quite enough damage to make the kill and then he would take the killing blow in the next turn. After a few games the other players had figured out what was going on and they started doing the same thing, resulting in Mr PG taking more damage but not getting the kill. And then he stopped playing. The annoyance wasn't that he was focusing on building up power, he was focusing on 'out scoring' the other PCs.

[@Electric999999]

On one hand he sounds like a dick, on the other hand that mechanic was just asking to be abused, there's a reason most games split combat xp between the whole party.

[@varenoftatooine2393]

That's why those mechanics aren't good

[@RockOfLions]

@@varenoftatooine2393 agreed, but at least the other players didn't exploit them... until he did.

[@Paxchi]

Another fun and insightful video. I think a way to look at it is that 'Power Gamer' isn't really a complete 'RPG style' in the same way 'RPG Terrorist' or 'Murder Hobo' defines a person's entire approach to the game. A lot of players want their character to be the best at the table in their specific role. You have the guys who are spec'd for social encounters, the guys who want to be the best a certain skill like driving, characters who want to be the best support character they can be, etc. Power Gamers are just that focus put on the aggressive side of combat. So having an optimized character for your area of focus isn't really a playstyle in and of itself, it's more an aspect of it. You can have Murder Hobos who are Power Gamers, but you can also have heavy Roleplayers who are Power Gamers, etc. And it is kind of odd to think about how people are down on Power Gamers when really, having a guy who is good at fighting is as beneficial to the group as it is for them to have other focused characters. No one is going to complain that the Cleric/Healer of the team 'Power Gamed' their build so that they can give out the best Buffs and Heals possible. Likewise, few people are going to complain when the Social 'Power Gamer' is able to talk a merchant giving them sweet discounts on items they wanted. So it seems weird that they complain when the combat Power Gamer is the one cutting down enemies and taking hits meant for them, because his actions are just as beneficial to the group as the other two examples. I imagine the issue is two-fold. For one, the part can more directly experience the positive benefits from other specialized characters. If a character gets optimal healing or optimal benefits from their pals social skills, they get a personal and direct benefit. Meanwhile, unless the Power Gamer does something specific like "I jump in the way of the attack meant for my friend and take the hit", it can often be hard to realize the Power Gamer is having that kind of positive impact on the group. By making themselves the target, they are in fact helping the group and killing guys that could be attacking their team, but that might be difficult to grasp immediately when all you see is your friend being awesome in combat. The second part is something of an outgrowth of that where, in a lot of RPGs, it's expected that the entire group will participate in combat, because combat is fun, exciting and lets us indulge our inner 12 year old that wants to be an action movie hero. So while only one person is usually expected to do healing and one person is usually expected to do social stuff, everyone is expected to fight, so it can feel like the Power Gamer is showing everyone else up. Which is understandable, but is ultimately looking at it the wrong way. In a lot of cases, the healer is the only one doing the healing and the social guy is the only one doing social stuff. Everyone else has to hang back and try not to get in the way. The Power Gamer will usually not be able to win a fight on their own, so even if their the baddest mamma jamma on the field, everyone gets to participate in the fight. So in a weird way, while other focused characters get their time to shine solo whenever their skill comes up, Power Gamers have to work to shine in an arena where everyone can participate. So it really is more a matter of perception where players need to look at the Power Gamer as being the guy who is helping them win fights the same way other characters succeed in other areas, and to not look at it as some kind of competition. You appreciate the Healer for the healing, the Smooth Talker for the smooth talking, appreciate the Power Gamer for the enemies he keeps from getting to you. Also, I've had the good fortune to never play with a Power Coward, but oh my God, that would drive me nuts. There's some serious "bully" vibes from a character who will gladly beat up people who are little threat to him but will run at the first chance of a fair fight. And now I feel like I can officially call this a 'ramble', so I'm just going to say 'thanks' again for a fun video!

[@turtleboy1188]

They had a bad power gamer

[@Jermbot15]

Power gamers, min maxers, munchkins, or really whatever you want to call them are like most things. They're a problem when they start to hurt the enjoyment of the other people at the table.

[@inrisd3704]

Tbh, if I was a professional monster slayer, I would probably try to be as powerful as possible. Being intentionally strong and min maxed is a realistic type of role play

[@randomusernameCallin]

I like to role playing through the gameplay. That include making character good in the following the rules.

[@AzureIV]

I never have a character concept first, and then try to create through the rules. I always create characters through the rules, and then try to work the roleplaying in after.

[@randomusernameCallin]

​@@AzureIV As you work on your character through the rules, you need to ask yourself how the character will act in the gameplay or their role in the gameplay.

[@SaucerheadTharp]

Me: [Reads and learns the rules] Ok, I have worked out how to do a thing. It took a lot of optimization and I'm proud of the results. GM: Cool. The GM's wife: I do a thing [that I have not configured my character for and may even be against the rules]. GM: Cool. Me: :-(

[@narcisse2269]

I think power gamers can be very good at a table if they do their job and teach the rules/give tips to other players. Even as a DM, my power gamers forced me to adapt and i learned a lot just by trying to adapt my encounters and stories to a bunch of immortal godkillers

[@TheNoobRapter]

I just was in a game where I saw a power coward in action. His ranged spell attacks can one shot basically anything, he has the highest armor class in the entire group, but when the notion of his character getting hit makes his character run in fear. It get even more furious since I am a healer, I am not going to be healing someone who got a booboo instead I am healing the three nearly dead party members. Sometimes their are times where the normal GM can't make it so this player runs the party thru an XP dungeon, enemies will never attack his character, and his character will know all the traps and enemy placements, effectively becoming a DMpc. I could deal with all of that but the smugness is the worst part, like their is a glory hog and then their is a player that belittles other players for not being optimal and making characters "the wrong way" (whats that you are not trying to deal the most damage, then you are and idiot and your character sucks). Writing this is also making me realize how I do not like playing with this player.

[@Lucky-yh5np]

One issue on this topic I have personally experienced is that some system can cause an extreme difference in power level. I once played in a game with a far more experienced player in a system I was new to and we both played combat characters, but my character was essentially useless against anything meant to challenge his combat monster and he would steamroll anything suited for my power level because of the huge power gap due to his understanding of the system and the ways to optimize things while I rolled up baby's first swordsman.

[@Silveressa]

One issue I've ran into a few times over the years with min maxing is the problem of it often only really working well when the entire party is of the same mind set regarding min/maxing. Otherwise the player/s who didn't hop on the min/max bandwagon often struggle to contribute as effectively in encounters, and tend to grow frustrated/jealous of the min/maxed chars and how they feel more like a sidekick than equal member of the team.

[@AzureIV]

What I loved about 4e D&D was I could play a Warlord. I was min/maxed in a way that made everyone else musclefied and stronger. Even if they weren't min/maxed, they were moving and attacking as good as those who were.

[@TheRealGovika]

I had a hard time with my power gamer because I was new and thought it was automatically stealing the spotlight. I was wrong. It's sort of like having a cat that won't stop jumping on the third shelf with all the precariously places minis. You just learn that the cat will always jump there and switch your minis. You know the Powergamer will always want to powergame in their way, that's fine, work with them not against them. Awesome video as always!!

[@johnquick9849]

I've just got back into playing Runequest and I see that system may have a solution to the Power Coward issue - if you are a follower of one of the warrior gods (esp Humakt) running away and leaving your friends in peril is likely going to be worse for you than staying and getting hurt/captured, maybe even killed. Reputation is all and if you betray the group then your rep is shot. Maybe this could adapted to other systems?

[@danacoleman4007]

Very interesting!

[@the-real-Lovefist]

Humakt will not suffer cowards

[@feral_orc]

The way to fix the power coward issue is to talk to your players. This system makes zero sense when running away is supposed to be a valid option in most games. This suggestion is a sub-system of a sub-system, it's not designed for wide use

[@johnquick9849]

@@feral_orc I disagree in the context of Runequest where a heroic death can be a desired outcome. In other games (e.g. Call of Cthulhu) then running away is always a good option. I merely offered this as a suggestion, not as the only solution. I would - of course - explain to my players the consequences of joining a heroic and/or honourable cult and the penalties that breach such a cult's code may bring, so perhaps we would end up in the same place.

[@elijuhtobler1470]

I feel the same way about power cowards. That feeling when the ultra badass abandoned the group because of danger just filled me with question marks

[@0x777]

They wanted to create a character that allows them to vent off steam, to go berserk and show off. They didn't want a challenge, they didn't want an actual fight, they just wanted to feel powerful.

[@shadiafifi54]

@@0x777Or it's their precious mary sue, and the very idea of a challenge offends them. They want a power fantasy that solves all its problems effortlessly. Really, power cowards should just stick to video games and turn the cheats on. I freely admit to being a power coward at times, but I keep it away from the table.

[@Daemonworks]

@@0x777 Or they only made a character that's powerful in combat as a way to reduce the risk of character death in a game that's more lethal than they'd like.

[@0x777]

@@Daemonworks Also not that uncommon. The train of thought here is "I can argue and fast talk, so I don't need those skills if the GM lets me just RP it, so I pump all into physical stats because, well, there ain't no way to decide it but to roll for it".

[@Observer29830]

Very good and balanced view. As a DM, I'd actually prefer to have at least 1 powergamer in the party. The rest can be unique snowflakes of various degrees of uselessness, if they want to, but when the chips go down, I'd rather have someone who I can rely on to carry the combat part.

[@janallenneuendorfjr4784]

The power coward part has me rolling. I have seen that a lot in gaming and never knew what to call it. Generally it’s the fireball wizard running around the room trying to get the adds off them while the tanks are attempting to grab back agro right before the wizard flees the room. We also had this rogue with a ring of invisibility go into the dungeon and open all the doors so that the monsters flooded into the hall way finding our unsuspecting group looking completely surprised while they stole the gold during the party wipe. One feature you should discuss is Meta-gaming. Lord they are the worst. Talking over the table about game mechanics When we are trying to enjoy the rpg moments. Love your content man- keep it up!!!!

[@marcoliver625]

Dunno about a fireball wizard being a power coward - not being smart enough to keep his squishy ass behind the tanks yes - but that's a different issue right there. Power coward to me is more that tank character that won't actually tank.

[@The_Murder_Party]

I want to defend meta gaming actually- sometimes you need to know the mechanics, and if you do, you won’t be stuck with a plan that flatly won’t work- for example a plan that involves someone hitting a dc 30 check on a character with +8, maybe you should let the charecter with +18 try for that one instead, or just to have the knowledge that what they’re attempting is… basically impossible.

[@janallenneuendorfjr4784]

@@The_Murder_Party well when i saw meta gaming its really cross talk over the table about things the characters would never know. So its really giving a character an advantage it would not gain if each remained in character. It’s really a tough scenario to manage. A thin line between meta gaming unfair advantages verses say- the party just discussing who should do what or be more effective at x or y. Which is just them really doing what you would with a group of friends in an RL situation. Hope that explains meta gaming better. It’s kinda a gray idea.

[@The_Murder_Party]

@@janallenneuendorfjr4784 it is yeah, also neither of us even mentioned (if you use them) reading ahead in the module, because that's a no-go, but I tend to be pretty loose with meta knowledge, though discussing things across distances you can't see across is a bit sticky, I don't mind it if it means the party won't kill another party member.

[@dubuyajay9964]

He did a Meta video a while back.

[@justinsinke2088]

Seth, you seem to reflect many of my own RPG philosophies and expound on them far better than I've ever been able to. The fact that "optimization" seems like a dirty word in RPGs and the idea that a character who's optimized or min/maxed can't be RPd has always baffled me. For me, that's actually where a lot of the fun is. I create a character generally optimized towards a particularly playstyle or fun and powerful seeming combinations and once I've put it all together I step back and go "what life path led to this person I have created?", and reverse engineering who they are based on that has led to some fun characters for me that I could really get invested in. It's honestly harder for me to start with the character first because it often feels like I then have to make so many concession with the mechanics not lining up with my RP that the character I end with isn't really the one I conceptualized anymore and have to get reinvested. And yes, if you know the rules better than the other players (or even the GM in some cases), you just as often get jeered as being a "rules lawyer", as if knowing, understanding, and remembering the rules is somehow cheating or being exploitative. The rules are there, they exist for a reason and are meant to be used, and frankly I get tired of people going "rule of cool" as a way of saying "I don't care about the rules". While the rules shouldn't be the end-all-be-all and at times it's okay to twist, modify, and even ignore them, such cases should be done with thoughtful reason, otherwise a game can devolve into chaos and hurt feelings when it feels like everyone's playing by a different set of rules that can change on a whim. ...sorry about the side rant. There are elements of playing TTRPGs I'm kind of passionate about.

[@johndoucette6085]

Testify, brother, testify.

[@danacoleman4007]

Extremely well said!

[@MarkLewis...]

A power gaming player isn't wrong in of itself. However, it is exacerbated tremendously when... 1) They don't Role Play at all. 2) The murder hoboism you mentioned. 3) They contribute nothing to moving the story forward. 4) They maliciously derail. 5) They have zero interaction with other players as well. 6) The lack of interaction becomes contagious 7) They disrupt the DM and other players with unrelated chit-chat, usually about how they "Can't wait to level up, again!" 8) They sit there and ONLY interact with the abilities, feats, and especially attacking moments in the game. They just want to roll dice all night. 9) Only selfish. Welcome to my world, and maybe some issues other players/DMs are having with (only) the min/max optimizers, who tend to have that uncooperative personality. 2 players in my group had all of the above issues, and the rest (mostly) had multiple. I don't mind players optimize their character at all, it's fun, but compound that with not moving the story forward, not role playing, and selfishly disrupting the game, etc... not cool and not fun. Glad you don't experience this, but it definitely exists Seth. Thanks for all you do.

[@originaluddite]

"They just want to roll dice all night" hence some of us distinguish between 'role-playing' and 'roll-playing'. :)

[@MarkLewis...]

@originaluddite Yes, and that's what the R in RPG stands for, role, not roll. As a DM, I'm not there to read a 4-5 hour bedtime story to the players as they intermittently kill everything they meet. Combat is fun, but not when that's all there is. If you just want to kill monsters all night, just go play a FPS video game. If that's what everyone playing their group's RPG wants- cool, but if not, each side (role-ers vs rollers) needs to meet each other halfway. It's collaborative, not a competition. Thx, have fun in your game!

[@MarkLewis...]

@originaluddite Sorry, know I wasn't directing that at you personally... parts of my complaint may seem angry at you, I'm not, but sorry anyway.

[@originaluddite]

@@MarkLewis... oh no, I get it, and feel similarly. Just seems like you've had some frustrating first-hand experiences. Speaking of bedtime stories, one of my players did say my narrative segments were restful, but I made sure to share it around after a while, and turned it more into bits of 'flash back dialogue' they had to recite. Players should work too, even if it's not a sandbox. :)

[@MarkLewis...]

@@originaluddite Good, glad you understand. When D&D or CoC is great, it's great, but when they're bad... they are a frustrating nightmare. Nice on-line meeting you. (Tiefling Wizards rule!!! Lol)

[@roundishwhale]

From my experience what causes power games to have their questionable reputation just comes down to how very noticeable they are. Their strong builds leans towards having a high impact on the table, be it good or bad. If the group is down to deal with the bad apples, I freaking love power gamer as a DM. Nothing quite as reassuring than knowing a player has mastered their part of the rules. Makes my job one hell of a lot easier.

[@feralart]

The way I see it; I like to make characters who are good at what they do. Building a basketball team? You want a Jordan on your roster. Solving a mystery? You want a Sherlock Holmes. There's still room for role play and sharing the spotlight, but you're ready for your job.

[@Irishtechy]

GM: Did you roll those stats? Or did you use point buy? I want the truth! Player: You can't handle the truth! We game in a dark world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by players with optimized stats. Who's gonna do it? You? You, half-elf bard? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the sorcerer and you curse the multiclass with a dip into fighter. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That the sorcerer's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about on discord, you want me on that wall. You need on that wall. We use words like multiclass, variant human, and S tier... we use these words as the backbone of a character spent defending something. You use 'em as a cringe post on reddit. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a player who roleplays and sleeps under the blanket of the character choices I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a dice and drop initiative. Either way, I don't give a damn if you think I am a min\maxing power gamer. GM Did you roll those stats? Player: (pause) You're goddamn right I did.

[@shenotski]

One character I made in Alien which became famous and was used in other campaign was the Hana unit. I made what was a bodyguard synth since they can have higher str and thus resilience and hp were much higher than normal. And bodyguard doesn’t use an action. So the Hana unit literally teleported around the fights eating up damage for the other players. This was so crazy that the model type I made has been used in several other games to the point where some players don’t fear the alien at all but if they have to go against a Hana unit they lose their shit.

[@citcoin-official2681]

Personally, I find the trend of popular advice being 'weak characters are better' and 'all powergamers are bad roleplayers' to be utterly asinine and tone-deaf. As a DM I have absolutely no idea why you'd ever want your players to deliberately handicap themselves in the name of avoiding being labelled a 'powergamer', or why you'd want them to avoid using their problem-solving tools to solve the problems you put in front of them. I LOVE the take you present here. As a Player, Power Fantasy is why I'm here most of the time (with the exception of Horror games), I want to be useful, I want to Have the means to *solve problems,* not to be Dead weight or be helpless all the time. Having absolutely no control ever is not fun, and isn't always 'good roleplay' either.

[@lilcwa]

Believe it or not, some GMs can be power cowards. Great video.

[@thehulkster9434]

I've always taken the approach that my character wants to live, and as such, will acquire the skills and tools to make that happen. The roleplay comes in how they go about that. One might go for overwhelming firepower to kill the enemy before the enemy kills them, while another might go for every defensive ability possible to be able to tank anything. The way they're min-maxed tells you something about the character. The rules are there to facilitate roleplay, so I don't see why an optimized character is in conflict with roleplay. There is one type of power gamer that is a bit antithetical to roleplay, and that's the one focused on weird exploits and perceived loopholes to the point of actually trying to break the game with pretty clear nonsense. But that's a problem that goes beyond power gaming to the "trying to win" mentality.

[@Spaceisprettybig]

3:10 There's a lot of good workout instructors who talk about this in the context of the 'swimmer bod', as the 'swimmer bod' is often considered the ultimate body-goal for a lot of people looking to get in shape. He said simply that, the reason swimmers have 'swimmer bod's is not that working out gave them that particular set of proportions, but but those particular set of proportions gave them further incentive to pursue swimming.

[@JPG.01]

I am a power gamer, the roleplaying is only a distant second to my priorities when it comes to fun for me. But that's just the kind of guy I am. Give me a system and I will jump into it, sinking my teeth in like a rabid dog and not letting go until I understood it's ins and outs. Creating builds and homebrewing magic items is something I do for fun when not at the table. But I know that about myself. So I always do my best to not let get in the way of the fun for everybody. I try to go along with the story as my fall back character if I don't have an interesting idea is the mercenary who does his best to get a good deal out of his work but also always does as asked. Pretty much a lawful neutral character. Throw me a hook and I will take it :D

[@girlbuu9403]

I was once told in a 3.5 campaign that picking a greatsword over a greataxe was power gaming. Your skit is more accurate than it is parody.

[@MRdaBakkle]

I think the kind of gamer that is under optimized is far more frustrating than a power gamer.

[@irhinohammer]

I feel a character should be, if not optimized, then efficient, according to their role in the group. If you're a face, you should have high social stats. If you're the beatstick, you should have high combat stats. They don't have to be perfect, or mono-focused, but they should fill the niche well.

[@AzureIV]

If I play the powerhouse character of the team, I try to make it so that all the attacks come my way. I am the taunter tank in MMO terms. I have trouble playing cowards.

[@MSTNocte]

I appreciate this video. As a forever GM. When I was a player I was a power gamer. And, I never understood the stigma of knowing the rules and using them to your advantage. I never stopped roleplaying. My turns were always planned out in advance and I kept the game and the dice rolling. As a player and GM I can tell you I appreciate a player that knows what they're doing and doesn't need to slow down the game for them to take 15 minutes to decide to use a cantrip.

[@Zircadraeya]

Really liked the video. Whilst I can understand that what you're describing is probably the most typical experience it doesn't actually match mine. The first group I played with would tend to have very powerful characters and we roleplayed them so much. In that group we'd keep character and player knowledge separate and do things like when the party separated the characters that weren't present in the subgroup with the GM would roleplay amongst ourselves and then when the GM was back give them a quick update. Groups I've been in since then have accused me of power gaming because my characters were good in combat, even though that wasn't my main focus, for knowing the rules and I got treated like I was being disruptive when trying to roleplay off to the side with someone. Those groups couldn't keep character and player knowledge separate and they were massive murderhobos.

[@quinnhutson5566]

I feel like lack of team focus is what people actually take issue with concerning "power gamers"

[@gradyelmore7710]

I had a power gamer in my group that always played casters and all it took to give him pause was a 10' pit. He would stall an adventure for an hour or more b/c he didn't account for having to jump.

[@connordarvall8482]

I think I'm becoming the anti-powergamer. I know a lot of the rules and can mention some fun combinations, but this makes me look like I stack numbers rather than the guy who tries to make a theme/gimmick character that actually functions in the game. Another fun thing to do is become an anti-powercoward. I try diplomacy, stealth, diversions or even just holding the floor before I get into a fight and always treat every fight as a lethal encounter. After that, I'm pulling out every trick in the book.

[@leorblumenthal5239]

I have a particular hatred for the anti-optimized spellcaster in D&D, such as the Wizard with an 8 Intelligence. I refer to such inept creations as "Rincewinds", after the cowardly, failed "Wizzard" of Sir Terry Pratchett's early Discworld books. Rincewind is a comedic character, who fit right in the sword and sorcery parody of early Discworld, and probably would be right at home in a GURPS: Discworld game. But in D&D such a character is a liability to the party. This isn't great roleplaying. Want to play a character that failed to become a wizard? Choose a background that gives you a skill like Arcana or History, and play a Fighter. Say that you just weren't cut out for the long hours of studying, because you preferred to play Quidditch all night or something. That would be an interesting character to play. I had a power gamer who quit my game after he decided to optimize a Bard in D&D for maximum persuasiveness in a Ravenloft campaign I ran. His idea was that he could just walk up to any NPC and "Jedi Mind Trick" them with a successful Persuasion roll. When he encountered a character who laughed at his outrageous request because it was against her goals to comply with it, he quit the game. Previously he'd created multiclass combinations that were highly effective at one or two things. Then once he was high enough level for the multiclass combination to come on line, he would coast through the game despite my best efforts. His complete misunderstanding of how the Persuasion skill worked (or rather didn't work) led him to quit the game.

[@InquisitorThomas]

I’m remind of a quote, “Rincewind isn’t a really shitty Wizard, he’s a Rogue wearing a hat that has the word ‘Wizzard’ written on it.”

[@RaymondRich]

I find that my problem isn't with power gamers but with wannabe power gamers. When they're not good at it but don't realize it, they start to blame everyone and everything else. They tend not to be people who can adapt in the moment, either.

[@bretthamelin8974]

My issue with "power gamers" tends to be because they're often one trick ponies. They've built their characters solely around combat to the point that they are uninvolved in noncombat situations and expect the other players to pick up the slack.

[@feral_orc]

Blame the games. Bards never have that issue, but if someone wants to play a fighter well you're fuckin screwed no matter what else you wanna do

[@CareerKnight]

@@feral_orc One of the reason I have never liked that intimidate is tied to charisma, if it was tied to strength (which makes just as much if not more sense) it would give the barbarian and fighter something to do outside of fights.

[@Kidneyjoe42]

If you redefine "powergamer" to mean anyone who knows the rules and doesn't intentionally make bad characters then of course there's nothing wrong with them. But that's not what anyone is actually referring to. When people talk about powergaming they're talking about a video gamey, number go up state of mind that leaves the player in question arguably not even playing the game at all. I had a player so mindbroken from WoW that he was pathologically incapable of thinking of his characters as characters at all. They were merely spreadsheets with his sole anticipation being that their numbers would grow larger and be bigger than everyone else's numbers. Only he was so bad at math and had such a poor understanding of the rules that his characters were consistently the weakest and most useless. He had no investment in his characters beyond their ability to do more and better than the other players'. And so whenever that wasn't happening, which was often, he would get bored and frustrated and whiny. And this was even with him blatantly fudging rolls. But according to this video, he wasn't even a powergamer since he was bad at the execution. No instead the powergamer is my player who gets invested in her characters (gives them whole family tress, draws her own art of them, etc.) and is a great team player who goes out of her way to try and help other players and their characters shine. Because she knows the rules and makes good, capable characters. That's definitely the type of player people are complaining about.

[@Argonnosi]

You didn't finish the video. He goes over the incompetent powergamer.

[@jonothanthrace1530]

That shootout scene was pretty rad, honestly.

[@hopefulhyena3400]

I think it's like that old quote by I-forget-who: "power doesn't corrupt, it enables". If the power-gamer at your table is a problem player, they aren't a problem player because they are a power-gamer, it's just more *noticeable* because they are a power-gamer.

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

Power gaming/optimization guides are great for new players. My first D&D character I was frustrated that I felt useless halfway through a two-session long battle. So I spent hours learning real strategy and better spell choices (I’d gone for flavor instead of practicality) and with permission from the DM to switch some stuff around that I’d never used, went into the second half of the fight knowing exactly what to do.

[@eurydicedrace931]

I adore the optimizers/power gamers of my group. They're great examples of all the positives mentioned in this video; they know the rules, but they tell everyone the fun stuff so we all can be awesome. Their builds are optimized, but they make sense lore-wise, and they do roleplay just as much as the rest of us. I haven't viewed the name 'power gamer' as a negative in a while because of them.

[@morrigankasa570]

I unfortunately don't have a groul to play with:( But I have created 6 different lvl 1 D&D Characters in case I ever found a group. 1 of them is a Male Mountain Dwarf Runecarver background Wizard planning School of Necromancy. What makes him extra fun is that since he's a Mountain Dwarf he can wear decent Armor while still being a Wizard, which then helps counter the "Squishiness" stereotype. Finally, for all the characters I used a different way to determine stats. You start with 72 points you can spread however you want then add your Racial/Background stats on top of that.

[@haywirewindgod]

As a tactically minded "power gamer", I really thank you for this.

[@nolgroth]

Aragorn, Conan, Harry Dresden, Rand al'Thor, Circe, Red Sonja, etc, were all hyper-competent. It is their pathos and hubris that are their foils. I see absolutely no reason for an rpg character to be any different. For those that don't want to role-play, I unironically recommend MMORPGs. Almost every one I've played has a discernable "meta" that allows for all the Min-Max with none of the "high school drama club" (as role-playing was once described to me) to get in the way.

[@NotMeButAnother]

I don't think powergamers are actually combat focused, I think powergamers are people who derive a significant amount of joy from engaging with the mechanics and mechanical challenges of the game (and overcoming them), basically what the GNS people called "gamist". It just so happens that most RPGs have combat be their most complex and engaging rule subsystem, as such you'll find many powergamers gravitate towards it. A powergamer in a Shokugeki No Soma RPG wouldn't make a soldier in the kitchen, they'd just make an amazingly skilled cook.

[@Erik-ic4fw]

Huh. I had always assumed min-max meant, not what Seth stated here, but messing with your stats to make your character good at like 2 things (the max) and utterly incompetent at most other things. Like a character who specs massively into strength and con, and has an int of 4. That said, that player was a FANTASTIC role player so it worked out well! But I always assumed Seth's description of 'the bad side of Max' was the base definition of 'min-max'

[@OokamiTez]

I think for myself only type of power gaming that I don't like is Min/Maxing and I do mean it in the most literal sense. When every character is just not made to be good at something but is like bare bones in all the other stuff. Good example I can give was a Magus in PF1 he had a build going that could use Dexterity for to hit and damage with his Katana so he Minimised his strength (7 by the rules we were doing) and also because he didn't want to be the face for the group he Minimised his Charisma (7 by point by and a negative 2 from Tiefling so 5) This so he could maximise his Dexterity and Intelligence (Main Attributes for the class) and have decent Constitution and Wisdom (for saves and HP) I think the best example (even though exaggerated) is the character MinMax from the Goblins Comic who traded his ability to Rhyme I think for +1 to hit or something : D

[@Skimmer951]

the "Getting called a powergamer for playing effectively and knowing the rules" cut pretty deep. One group I was in i was upgraded from a guestplayer to a fulltime player, both me and the group had played for about 8 years before but i come from more combat centric and high intensity groups while they werent that adept at the rules. I did my turns quickly and well and didnt really even take spotlight as i built that wizard to be more supportive. But they still "jokingly" called me a powergamer and that stings pretty hard when youre new to a group and wants to be included but instead get alienated.

[@Unenvarjo]

Last time I was this early, no one had heard of the Scott Brown Incident

[@gts1676]

12:00 No wonder you've got no problem with power gamers. You dont play with them. You spent this whole vid saying "oh, they're not that bad" and then "m, dont wanna play with them, we're incompatible" xDDDDD srly dude....

[@lorenzomoro1970]

I love your Thulsa Doom shirt!

[@notentirelyanon6902]

The issue with min-maxing/character optimization/power gaming (all different facets of the same concept) has never really been the existence of power gaming itself. The issue has always been that being a crappy player correlates so strongly with the practice of power gaming. Not all power gamers are bad people, but a tremendous majority of bad people show power gaming traits; that sort of argument. Therefore, the practice of mechanical optimization gets tarred via guilt by association. I will also say that mechanical optimization as a practice can be taken to an extreme that creates an entirely toxic game environment. The Shadowrun Missions official play environment, for several years while I was on the Catalyst Game Labs Demo Team, had a maximum cap of 20 dice that you could have in your dice pool. As a result, if a new player showed up at a convention table with a character who was rolling fewer than 20 dice in their primary skill, other players would murder that character, until the player came back with a new character rolling 20 dice, because "they are not as skillful as they could be and are therefore a liability", a practice which was exacerbated by even being within the bounds of reasonable roleplay within an inherently criminal and dystopian setting like Shadowruns. This practice was never fully solved during the years I was on the Team (fortunately on the BattleTech side so it was not my direct problem).

[@m0rtez713]

TTRPG News Narrator: We interviewed an accused "POWERGAMER" this afternoon, just as he was making his way to what we can only assume to be a bloody game. This is what he had to say: Reporter Claire Johnson: "Mr. Smith, you have been accused of powergaming earlier this week. What do you have to say for yourself?" Mr. Smith, alleged local powergamer: *leans in, close to the extended mic* "Git gud." *turns around and leaves as fast as he approached before*

[@colinmerritt7645]

Meh. It's fine of course...so long as everyone's on the same page. One power gamer in a group that's clearly not will cause tension. Either the GM ups their difficulty level making it hard on the others, or he doesn't meaning the PG blitzes everything. Similarly, one non-min maxer in a PG group will be frustrated by being constantly out of their league, and the PGers will get tired of the dead weight. Something to discuss in session 0.

[@Frank-Voight-Kampff]

Just off topic: LOVE the Conan/Cult of Set shirt. 😍

[@g1sucks596]

Hello, Seth. I'm sorry to disagree with you this time. I have to say I don't care for power gamers, although I agree that people sometimes use the term incorrectly. I don't like them regardless of whether they're just the product of an exceedingly combat happy gaming table or whether they're just wired that way and can't play any other way (those are the worst). At the end of the day, all power gamers try to "win the game". And when you play a videogame in god mode, what's normally the first thing you do? What are you planning to do after you amass all the firepower available to your character? And why would you need other player characters if you can wreck every moving target in sight single-handedly in a single round? I get that different people get their kicks in different ways, but I'm unhappy playing with people that can only get their kicks when they're the only person having fun at the table

[@graywolf7132]

I've been in far too many situations where someone at the game table decided they could talk down to me, because I dared to learn the rules and be good at math.

[@TheRyujinLP]

Man, the sub-optimizer deserves a video on their own since there tend to be the bad ones. Almost everyone I've dwelt with always did so since they thought it entitled them to be the bestest EVAR in the end and would flip out if I didn't give them that in the end if they didn't earn it. And I would give them the chance to, if they played the part I'd award them bonus good role playing Character Points but ask them to use it to start buying off their quirks and bad decisions. But no, they wanted their weird "I'm special since I have X" but still want all the negative sides of being that X to not actually affect them.

[@blktom]

I have this friend who drives me nuts who brandies about 'min-maxer' and 'power gamer' all the time. 'Oh, I don't want to be a 'power gamer'... really get the vibe of the 18 wisdom Wizard skit there because they then make weird and sub-par characters who tend to be the one trick pony types. I really get the feeling it is because they feel that is what they have to do to be on par with everyone else. They also tend to not read or fully understand the rules very well, but then kind of pass it off as 'It is all about the story...' and to me, that is the worst. Do the work, at least learn what /your/ (actual or potential) character is doing and know the rules for what you are doing.

[@tigercrush2253]

A variation on power-cowards is the player who doesn't abandon the party (never seen that one, thankfully), but the player who is happy to coast through on their min/maxed character and turn every encounter trivial but then gets really grumpy or squirrelly when they get called in to make a suboptimal roll. You spent five sessions with your hyper-skilled sneak attack rogue, doing insane burst damage and never running into adversity because you can stealth out of every encounter, and then the GM sets up one scene to take you out of your comfort zone, put the character's back against the wall and make them express their character's weaknesses, and you start emanating negative energy as you try to argue your way to a sneak check. Just roll your weak stat, play out the failure, and make it fun and memorable that you're out of your element. As long as your GM is giving you plenty of chances to shine, being dull for a scene is not just okay - it highlights when you do excel.

[@dreamwanderer5791]

I just cannot understand people who complain if you make your biggest stat the one you use the most and your lowest the one you don't. That's literally just common sense. Also the "Power Gamers don't roleplay" thing is called the Stormwind Fallacy. Its been a problem for so long we have a term about it. It is just absolute nonsense.

[@itaymiara444]

The main thing about "knowing the rules" is not the knowledge of the rules, which is genuinely good. It is the usage of these rules in good faith. The example you gave with the prone rule is very cool if the character is a seasoned fighter, but if it was an old professor? Would dropping prone and starting a gunfight would be in their nature? Running behind the car might not have gained the most bonus dice, but it was a very logical in-character thing to do for some characters. These players use the rules to gain advantages at the expanse of roleplaying their characters, which breaks the unwritten contract between players and GMs and gives a very ugly vibe of unsportsmanlike behavior for purely utilitarian gains. It can damage players' immersion in the group and provide a feeling that these players need to defeat the GM rather than play with them. So, knowing the rules is good, but gaining an advantage from this knowledge should be in the context of roleplaying the character.

[@Author1219]

I play regularly with a couple of min-maxers that take the time to RP and really get into character. We get into in character squabbles that occasionally set the entire table to laughing and I often ask them for help because I’m newer to the system. We always take time after a heated session to make sure everyone is OK, and communication is crucial to this play group. However, I’ve played with the bad kind of power gamer before- the Munchkin. They rode what I not-so-affectionately nicknamed the Character Carousel. Their characters were either really tall or really short. Near max stats. And were combat builds of varying flavors. I beat them once with a character I intentionally optimized to try and get them to pay attention to RP more because they kept insulting everyone, and this character of mine was one that wouldn’t stand an insult. They threw a fit and replaced the character I defeated in a nonlethal spar that session. Every two-four sessions there was a new character, and they got annoyed, “Why don’t you treat (goblin ranger) like (Goliath barbarian)? They’re all my characters!” Thankfully I don’t have to deal with that anymore, but I still hear about the chicanery they pull.

[@Pile_of_carbon]

Love these discussions. IMO, power gaming is only a problem if there's also other problem behaviors present.

[@demonicspire1345]

The power cowards thing makes me think of that panel from that jack chick dungeons and dragons book where the GM is saying a player's character died from not seeing a trap and the player starts screaming "no not black leaf!"

[@ericjome7284]

Rules mastery? That's available to everyone. Dropped prone against the gangsters? Now they know that trick too.

[@robbabcock_]

One note though; power gaming is not just a player attribute but a style! My local 1E game is definitely run by a hardcore power gamer DM. Our party averages 9th level and all of us have some potent magic items, weapon mastery etc. Yet we routinely get one-shotted by powerful enemies and suffer TPKs at least twice per year!😂 So while the PCs are powerful the world/game is extremely dangerous and deadly. Despite taking reasonable precautions and attempting to play cleverly we still lose characters fairly regularly.

[@feral_orc]

You mean you're just playing AD&D basically. This sounds normal for that, not an exception

[@wagz781]

Typically I find power gamers are only an issue in the majority of situations where they specifically make a huge power imbalance between themselves and other players, and then don't help the other players try to close that gap. If it's because they just want to be the strongest, that's a problem. If it's because they try and the other players don't listen to them, then there's nothing they can really do. Typically power gamers most often spark as players that actually take the game seriously and build a character that is the best they can scrounge up from the rules themselves. Like someone that figures out the Variant Human+magic initiate into goodberry on a life cleric build in their first session. The problem is the most rules-heavy parts of system tends to be combat. Which predisposes them to acting like a hammer in a world full of nails. The problem is compounded when it comes to 5e because often times players that aren't the power-gamers tend to not actually read the rules between sessions or fully learn the abilities and spells their characters know. On top of the actual default rules for gms in 5e being "figure it out, 4head". Which leaves gms with woefully lacking options to deal with this particular issue save getting angry or talking directly to the person in question.

[@feral_orc]

Stop playing 5e, I thought this was obvious like 2 years ago

[@wagz781]

@@feral_orc I stopped playing 5e several years ago. I just include anecdotes for those that haven't. Since it is still the most popular TTRPG currently in circulation.

[@zipper4146]

For me a common problem with power gamers is that many of them take an adversarial view of the GM. The game is a challenge between the players and the GM, and they can actually win if they create something strong enough and so long as the GM doesn't cheat or cheese the game. I've only met maybe 3 power gamers, but it was true for each of them.

[@juliaw4973]

I was just thinking in my head “I really want to watch a Seth Skorkowsky video” and couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw a new video was up! Yay thank you!

[@mikeledrew5830]

One problem I've often seen among these power gamers who love to find every rule they can use to make themselves stronger or give themselves advantages is that they often like to keep that information to themselves and try to spring it on people like a "gotcha" moment rather than using their superior knowledge of the rules to offer guidance and advice to the other players in the game, not that telling someone how to play their character is wanted, just that some friendly help here and there can go a long way to making sure everyone has more fun.

[@TinyPirate]

The hidden secret players never seem to remember is that it doesn't actually matter how optimized their characters are, I, as GM, will just adjust the challenges to match.

[@feral_orc]

Ha, good luck. You fudge dice too? 😅

[@TinyPirate]

@@feral_orc nope. But the number of mobs may go up or down, or the skill of the enemy.

[@morecringe89]

Everybody goes if the people involved agree on it. Think about it as kinky couples.

[@ColinWright-d8q]

The power coward Just one word... Ash. Gimme some sugar baby 😉

[@thomasrobinson7416]

I like to build characters that are good at what they are supposed to be good at without being totally awful at other things. It doesn't matter if you are the greatest swordsman in the realm if you are so repulsive that no one will speak to you.

[@thearchitectwarrior5409]

A very enlightening video on many fronts, but my experience with a "they know the rules" player hasn't been them utilizing their own advantages. Its been them telling OTHER players to do certain actions to give themselves advantages. It's the butting in on other people's turns to tell them what they should or shouldn't do, specifically without a care for what the rest of the group wants to do, that makes this type of a player annoying to play with. If they lay out several options or jump in quickly to genuinely help another player, I really appreciate their knowledge.

[@feral_orc]

So you say they can do it, but it also annoys you? Do you give your players a chance to discuss tactics openly at the table? Or are you trying to keep these rounds to 30 seconds? Some people will literally never learn if they don't have someone to explain this stuff. You're getting mad because one of your players is invested in the overall success of the group. So what's the actual issue? Maybe you should encourage the other players to brush up on the rules if they need to be reminded of things constantly

[@thearchitectwarrior5409]

@@feral_orc You misread my comment. It wasn't the success of the group, it was their own success. They weren't giving advice, they were giving orders to other players to give advantages for only their plans. And no, I did not allow them to do it after the second session. To be clear, I'm happy with people wanting the success of group and knowing the rules to achieve that, so long as they're actually keeping the GROUP in mind. This was just my specific interaction with a knowledgeable player, so I realize this isn't a general issue.

[@originaluddite]

The image accompanying the ‘super-ripped’ mage comment is hilarious. What is happening in that scene?

[@michaelwest4325]

While I do not begrudge anyone using the rules to make a great or just best possible character, I suppose I too am from that old school roll it up as is and run it style. That said, I do find the "perfect" character a bit annoying, yet I also am toying with front loading the low level B/X characters to have better abilities and HPs to avoid the fragility at 1-3 level. Maybe it is more with how one plays versus if you optimize afterall!

[@roserichards1460]

Alright I'm seen alot of you Chooms talking about power gamers and combat. But as power gamer and DM/GM I actually tend to build favor High Charisma Characters. Power isn't just about fighting, power comes from knowing people's minds, power comes being able to influence the people around you. For instance 5e Paladin/Warlocks. Super OP yeah? Chasima based Character with lots of accesses to the RP skills like Persuasion or Intimidate. Everyone forgets that real power is more than just your ability to fight. Its also your ability to influence the world around you.

[@SwiftJustice]

Nothing beats Illusion magic

[@roserichards1460]

I'd also like to point out I didn't originally intend to for my Oath of the Ancients Paladin to Multiclass into Warlock but when the ancient fey aspect of Winter steals your name and is nice enough to give it back and then offers you guidance not once but twice for no other reason than she felt like it? Yeah no, I think I want her to teach me ancient fey magics. So now I'm a Fey Warlock too. Story dictates the characters actions and I RPed my way into a what I consider an extremely fun build as Nora Clearsprings, Witch Knight and protector of happiness!

[@feral_orc]

No the bladelock is just OP

[@feral_orc]

Oh and seriously, "uhuhu people talking about combat but I, the absolute Chad prefer RP. So I picked the class that lets me do combat and RP better than everyone" This is what people have an issue with

[@daxrunner2072]

I dunno but for me powergamer it's not who is necessary combat centered (but many of them are). It is *power* centered in their chosen field(s). I've seen social centered or insert_other centered powergamers as well. They are focused on making the most in-game power out of their build and collected rewards.

[@jonasbollesser6592]

It sounds like the kind of player you define as a Power Gamer is what i would call gamist. A player who mainly cares about the "game" side of rpgs. The way the word "power-gamer" is commonly used, also in wargaming and larping, it refers to people who prioritise "winning" over the integrity of the game, and will exploit the rules, disregard the enjoyment of other players, and argue to keep their edge. Don't get me wrong, you can absolutely be engaged in optimising a character, and following the rules tactically without being disruptive to a table, I would just not call it power gaming.

[@ClothesCat]

Spot on, as far as I am concerned.

[@FelixGWilliams]

By Crom that is a magnificent tshirt.